Ep 167: Why Teaching Assisstants Are VITAL To Education

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Hello everyone, welcome back to
another episode of Teach Sleep

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Repeat.
My name is Dylan.

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And my name is.
Hayden And in this episode,

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we're going to give big love out
to our teaching assistants, huge

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part of the school system, the
education sector, often

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overlooked, often undermined,
often not given the respect they

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deserve.
So we're going to dive in today,

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Hayden, into why they are vital,
how their roles changed over

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time, and most importantly, to
be honest, how we need them and

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our children need them.
You could even say they matter

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more than they ever have in all
of history.

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That's how important since.
The beginning of time.

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Since the beginning of time,
just.

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After The Big Bang, probably
just.

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Very important when the first DA
yeah was in the classroom

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compared to now.
No, but it is vital, isn't it?

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And it's something we're really
passionate about.

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And I think to begin with, we
should just outline why we think

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they're so, so, so important.
Like to me, a teaching assistant

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does so much undercover almost
without being recognised for it.

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And the biggest thing I think, I
always think about my teaching

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assistants was how much the
children loved them and how much

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they confided in them and how
much of a safe space they were

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for them and just that
relationship.

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It really isn't something that
you can quantify very easily,

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but it's something that when you
experience it and see it, you

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see how much of an impact it has
on your class.

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You know how in the past you've
talked about how not every kid

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in the class, you're not going
to be the favourite teacher for

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every child.
And obviously like the ego part

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of us, of course, they all love
us the most.

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They don't.
The reality is people, Joe with

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different people.
When you see a child in your

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class develop that relationship
and that bond with a teaching

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assistant that they're maybe not
developing with you because

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you're different people,
Jealousy, jealousy, you think

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get them out of the classroom.
And then I'm on there.

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I'm up there, you know, in the
picket line saying get rid of

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TATAS out of my classroom.
Undermining me.

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They're like them more.
But it but it happens, doesn't

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it?
It happens and I, I can think of

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examples of my Tasmania in the
past where I think I'm so glad

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that they were a huge part of my
classroom because of that

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particular child or that group
of children needed that person

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because that was their person.
Like, and I'm, I'm sure I'm the

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person for other people.
It doesn't matter.

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Like we're here as a collective
to meet the needs of all these

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children.
And I don't know what I would do

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without that person there,
without that TA, to have that

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bond and that support for that
child.

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I think quite often as well, a
teaching assistant is one of the

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most consistent results for a
child in a classroom.

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Think about how often teaching
assistants are dragged off to do

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break duty.
Think how often they they'll

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stay at the class all day, for
example, potentially we're

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talking about old school much
more, but if they're supporting

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a child in particular, they'll
follow that child around.

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I've worked before with teaching
assistants who've been working

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specifically with a child in a
classroom and every single

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lesson of the week, that
teaching assistant is with that

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child and that class.
And they developed such a bond

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even to the point where they're
moving up through the school

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with them.
And the teacher obviously has a

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really important part to play in
the learning.

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And I'm not going to undermine
the teacher whatsoever.

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Like, that role is more
demanding, that's for sure.

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But if we're talking about the
relationship and the importance

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to the children in the class,
there is absolutely no reason

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why they can't be seen as
equals.

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And they should be seen as
equals in my opinion.

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Yeah, if the priority, if the
goal here is to make sure

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everyone in the class is
included, they all feel

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welcomed, they're all making
progress, they're all learning,

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they're all getting all of their
needs met, there are many, many,

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many situations where it is
essential that you have at least

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one other adult in that
classroom.

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Like we can't just pretend that
that's not true because, Oh

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yeah, because the teachers more
trained and they, they are more

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trained.
And like we said, we're not

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undermining the teacher, but we
just can't pretend that there's

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not situations where a teacher
cannot cope and handle all 32

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children where you've got
several different needs.

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And some of those needs really
require, in all honesty, 1 to

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one or at least small group
intervention and support

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consistently all the time.
And you just can't provide that

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always as a teacher.
So having that TA in the

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classroom is a game changer for
keeping all of the children

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included, all of the children
feeling like they're making

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progress.
And then that needs are being

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met.
We need them.

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I just bloody love them.
And we're talking a lot from the

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the kids perspective, but also
from the teachers perspective.

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Yeah.
Like, for example, I'll tell

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you, I'll be really honest now,
I really struggle with the

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deployment of other adults in
the classroom.

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Like, I struggle with that as a
skill myself because as a

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teacher, it is my job to manage
the classroom.

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And if I have that adult
support, which I strive for and

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want as much as possible, I did
sometimes think to myself, am I,

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am I deploying this teaching
assistant in the best possible

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way?
But that's a problem for me

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because at the end of the day,
the kids will benefit from

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having an extra pair and in the
classroom.

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And I do think if we look at the
makeup of education at the

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minute and let's say the cross
section of children who are

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teaching, yeah, there are more
needs than ever.

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And it is just for me
highlighting how vital extra

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hands in the classroom is.
And I don't mean this in a

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doratory way.
We'll talk about the role of ATM

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in a second.
I don't just mean, oh, someone

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to do a cutting up for me or
doing some, you know, nice

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displays in the corner and
things like that.

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I'm talking about just an extra
pair of hands and an extra brain

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and an extra heart, An extra
person just to share the load of

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providing a whole classroom of
children with what they need.

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They are just.
Vital and you're talking about

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rising SEND, you really, aren't
you, that we're talking about

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the rise of SEND diagnosis and
and the number of children of

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SEND in mainstream schools
particularly.

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I think we're imagining
mainstream schools and

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mainstream teaching assistance
right now.

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And it's true.
We like like I was just saying

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we can't, we can't cope as
teachers with this change and

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just pretend like there's not
going to be any difference.

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We can't just look at point A,
which is 20 years ago, and point

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B and say, Oh yeah, there's been
all this change, so we don't

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need to do anything about it.
Well, of course you do.

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Of course we need extra help now
then.

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And the sad thing is the change
that seems to be happening is

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that support is being dwindled.
It seems like supports going

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down and down.
And, you know, we'll talk about

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this later on, but the whole
adage of, like, looking back in

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time and how teaching assistants
weren't as much the thing, yeah,

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we'll talk about why that's a
nonsense.

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But the point is just because
it's increased over time, it

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doesn't necessarily mean that
right now we are meeting the

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needs of everyone and where we
should be.

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It doesn't necessarily mean that
we should be stripping it back.

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And it's OK.
If anything, I think classrooms

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need more support than ever.
Yeah, definitely.

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And I think I want to move on
conversation a little bit now

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because there's a few gripes
that we hear because we speak to

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a lot.
We get a lot of TA is listening.

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So thank you for listening.
If you're a teaching assistant,

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thank you for listening in
general, but a lot of teaching

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assistants will have gripes, not
only with things like pay, which

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we'll talk about a bit later,
but also the, the change in that

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role.
There's a lot of teaching

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assistants have been doing it
for a long time.

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I, I've actually, I know you
have as well.

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We've worked with teaching
assistants that have been doing

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the job and working in education
longer than us, like twice

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longer.
Than we've been alive longer

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than we've been alive.
Yeah, genuinely.

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Yeah, I can think.
I can think of one person.

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Right now.
Oh, we just annoy them.

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Oh, really?
I wasn't alive then.

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I wasn't born then, actually.
I wonder if you were TA when I

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was in school.
Classic those.

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Click around the ear.
But I just want to acknowledge

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it for a minute because they
often say to us, the role has

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changed so much.
And I think we can, you know, we

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often talk about how the role of
teachers have changed so much,

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but let's just acknowledge it.
So like going back in time then

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what, what would you say defined
the role of a teaching

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assistant, let's say maybe in
the 80s or 90s, like when we

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were at school that, that, you
know, 20-30 years ago, what

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would you say ATA did?
What was the role?

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Well, this isn't just us saying
it again, this, this is, yeah,

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OK, we were in school right then
and we experienced it.

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But this is also, I was
literally talking to people

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who've done it.
And importantly to make this

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point before we go into it, this
is very much still what people

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of an older generation who don't
work in a school see the role of

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teaching assistant as.
And this feeds into why it's so

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undermined and so brushed aside
is like, well, it's just a

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kushty job, isn't it?
No, let me tell you now how much

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it's changed.
So initially we think about

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teaching assistant.
You might think about someone,

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like I said earlier, an extra
pair of hands.

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And what I mean by that is
literally an extra pair of

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hands.
Someone to move, some

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photocopying for me, someone to
trim some sheets, someone to put

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up a display, someone to do some
menial tasks in the classroom.

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An assistant role, teaching
assistant was probably a really

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good title for what they were
doing back then.

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They were assisting the teacher,
right?

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They were just doing menial
tasks, getting on with things,

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doing some photocopying, maybe
doing some displays, doing some

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admin jobs, just helping out in
that respect.

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Maybe sitting nice and quietly,
giving a little SH if someone

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was talking when the teacher was
doing their input.

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Then when maybe they were doing
their tasks, they were just

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maybe working around the room or
sat with once one group and just

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being a sound board for them to
go off.

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Not very proactive necessarily,
but providing a role of

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assisting the teacher in the
classroom.

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Very much just do as you're
told, crack on low level job.

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The kind of thing that did used
to suit parents who wanted a job

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in time time while their child
was in school.

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They could drop them off, do the
job, pick them up and kind of

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leave it there, right?
That's what we used used to

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think often quite informal, you
know, kind of and that and that

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kind of I think that perspective
of a teaching assistant has

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stayed, but I think the reality
of how the role has.

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Changed is just incomparable.
So maybe you could just outline,

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you know, why is it not that
anymore what's happening?

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Sure.
And I just want to say one thing

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on what you're what you were
saying as well.

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You were very much describing
what the expectations of that

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role were because I'm I know and
I know you know this as well.

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I'm sure you meant this, that
back then the Tasmania were

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obviously still helping children
when they needed to, they were

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still working with, they were
still doing bespoke things with

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their teachers in all sorts of
different situations.

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But the expectation and
understanding of that role is

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very much what you just said.
And people got that job knowing

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that this was the expectation.
If they went above and beyond,

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that was great, but they were,
they'd be comfortable doing that

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role.
Whereas now even though the

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public perception is still that
and often the perception even

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sometimes from newly qualified
teachers or even from Tasmania

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themselves going into the job,
they think, oh, maybe this is

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what it was.
It's not the expectation on

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average.
Now there might be some schools

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still clinging on to this, but
it for everyone we've heard

227
00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,800
from, it's not like that at all.
So Tasmania are now expected to

228
00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,080
run interventions and
interventions are extremely

229
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,960
necessary, important progression
lessons that children who have

230
00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,320
needs require to make the
adequate progress in school,

231
00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,240
like really essential things.
Not even children with needs.

232
00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,520
An intervention is put in place
when there's a gap in knowledge.

233
00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:00,480
It's teaching.
They are teaching.

234
00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,440
Exactly, right.
On top of that, think about SEND

235
00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,320
the rising, you know, rise of
SEND that TAS are quite often

236
00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,200
expected to be working either
one to one or in groups with

237
00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,240
children with high needs or
working on EHCP plans.

238
00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,560
For children who've actually got
an EHCP plan, they might get a

239
00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:17,040
one to one TA or again or we put
in a group.

240
00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,320
But, but just so let's expand on
that for a second, because it's

241
00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,880
not even just like they're
expected just to work 1:00 to

242
00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,720
1:00 with the children or, or
often I'm a one to one TA for

243
00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,400
three children.
It's not one to one anymore, is

244
00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:27,840
it?
Trying to cut in corners there.

245
00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,520
But also they're expected to
deliver the needs of the HCPA

246
00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,440
really important document, which
often they're not involved in

247
00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:34,600
the putting together of the
document.

248
00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:35,720
This is something I want people
to know.

249
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,000
And they'll be maybe like an SLT
or the teacher and a parent in a

250
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,800
meeting who just say, oh, yeah,
the teaching assistant can do

251
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,360
this 15 minutes a day working on
their fizzy.

252
00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:46,280
You know, they're doing they
yeah, they can do that.

253
00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:47,920
That's fine.
And then you learn later on as

254
00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:49,320
the teaching assistant, oh, I'm
doing that as well.

255
00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:50,880
Am I?
Oh, I'm supporting this child

256
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:51,720
one to one.
Yeah.

257
00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:52,720
You are supporting the 1:00 to
1:00.

258
00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:53,920
But also you're the TA for the
class.

259
00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,800
But no, no, no, no, no.
Yeah, yeah, that's insane.

260
00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:58,360
And that happens all of the
time.

261
00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,200
So common, all of that.
That one is probably one of the

262
00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:01,560
most common things I've ever
seen.

263
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,760
I'm a one to one TA, but there's
always a but, but you need to

264
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:05,760
help the class.
So if the teacher needs

265
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,280
something or this needs to
happen, or that kid or that

266
00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:08,480
factory, can you work with that
group?

267
00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,160
We'll put your one to one in
that group and then you work

268
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:12,680
with that group so we can cheat
around the system.

269
00:11:12,680 --> 00:11:14,360
So it's not really what you're
employed for.

270
00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:16,680
The biggest one and the one I
imagine TA is listening,

271
00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:20,080
thinking, Oh my God, please say
it is planning, teaching,

272
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,080
marking, doing a, you know,
doing the role of what we'd

273
00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:25,960
consider normally with what a
teacher would do, which I think

274
00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:27,720
back in the day would be like,
well, no, of course you don't do

275
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:28,600
that.
The teacher does the planning,

276
00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,920
the teaching, the marking, and
the teaching assistant assists

277
00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,080
the teacher.
Or we get cover in when a

278
00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,640
teacher is sick.
We get an external source to

279
00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,240
bring as a cover teacher.
We get someone who's a supply

280
00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,880
teacher out of an agency to come
in and cover stuff.

281
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,840
Newsflash if you're not working
in a school it doesn't happen

282
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:46,920
anymore.
If someones ill or can't make a

283
00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,760
lesson or has a meeting, it's a
teaching assistant who's asked

284
00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,960
to cover, often for a pittance
and often then sure.

285
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,960
The actual planning itself quite
often is provided by the school

286
00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:59,320
or the teacher who's leaving it
right.

287
00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:01,320
Sometimes it's not though.
If we're talking about

288
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,160
interventions earlier, a lot of
Tasmania are expected to put

289
00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,400
interventions together to
deliver them.

290
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,720
And then when they're covering,
the thing I never, ever, ever

291
00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,960
agreed with or understood was
when if a teaching assistant is

292
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,120
asked to cover a lesson, sure,
they get an extra pound an hour,

293
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,080
nothing, right, for the act of
teaching then, then, then

294
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,600
expected to mark the work.
And it's like, OK, well, at

295
00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,200
least in a teacher, it's just
contract.

296
00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:27,560
I understand that there is some
built in that I have to do some

297
00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:28,920
extra work outside a directed
time.

298
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,920
If you're a teaching assistant
on a contract that's pro rata

299
00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,440
and basically nothing, an
unbelievably low wage, let's be

300
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,120
real.
And then you'll just say, oh, by

301
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:38,200
the way, you've got to mark
them.

302
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:39,840
What?
When I'm finished?

303
00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:40,800
What?
Yeah, when you've clocked out.

304
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,320
You finished what?
You know, when you got paid

305
00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,120
extra for delivering the lesson,
right.

306
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,400
Not for marking then and they
were just expected to do work

307
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:49,920
outside of their hours.
And I am here to say to people

308
00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,080
and teaching assistants out
there, that is ludicrous.

309
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,320
I was constantly telling my
teaching assistants to go home

310
00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,240
and get out of the building.
Oh, but it needs to be marked.

311
00:12:58,240 --> 00:12:59,120
Don't care.
I'll take the rap.

312
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,280
If someone has is that annoyed
that it's not marked, it me,

313
00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:03,920
it's my fault.
I'll mark that for you.

314
00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:05,880
Sometimes they didn't, but I'll
mark that for you.

315
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:07,680
That's all, thank you.
I can go home now and plan

316
00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:09,000
tomorrow's lesson because I'm
covering again.

317
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:09,680
All day.
It's insane.

318
00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:10,880
It's insane.
It's just.

319
00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,960
And then people would say
brazenly online, they'll say

320
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,320
brazenly teaching assistants
don't have to plan.

321
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,800
Teaching assistants never had to
do that when I was in school.

322
00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:20,960
As if that means it doesn't
happen.

323
00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:22,760
Yeah.
How much more than I've worked

324
00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,120
in a school for 10 years and
experienced it and seen it first

325
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,640
hand and have hundreds of people
message us to say this is what's

326
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,440
happening?
How much of that do I need to

327
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,960
put in front of you to realise
that you are wrong and what

328
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,840
you're thinking is not true?
And that just because something

329
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,440
used to be a certain way or just
because currently in one

330
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,760
environment it doesn't happen,
it does not mean that this isn't

331
00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,440
a widespread problem.
It's a huge issue.

332
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,920
OK, here's another one then that
people often throwback and I, I

333
00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:47,520
feel like I've got an answer,
but I want you to go off the

334
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,840
Dome.
People often say surely this is

335
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,240
better though in terms of the
impact it's having on children.

336
00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,000
Teaching assistants becoming
more professionalised and

337
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,960
getting involved more with the
learning and impacts and

338
00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:58,640
progress of children.
That's better, right?

339
00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:00,960
ABS of course it is, it's
fantastic.

340
00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,000
It wouldn't it be great as well
if I just did 54 lessons every

341
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,320
week?
Wouldn't it be fantastic?

342
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,400
We opened the Saturday school
and opened up this extra thing

343
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,240
for the children to do the
weekend and there's some extra

344
00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:10,760
enrichment.
Wouldn't it be fantastic?

345
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:12,040
We went away in a residential
every week.

346
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,840
Cool money, people's
livelihoods.

347
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,040
And the the thing that winds me
up the most is here again, we've

348
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,360
talked a lot about teachers and
how we need to push back.

349
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,520
But I do understand that there
is some extra stuff we have to

350
00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,080
do.
The people we should not be

351
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,480
taking advantage of at all in
this situation are one of the

352
00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,960
lowest paid members of the
school, have the highest impact

353
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,160
on the children and that we just
eek and eek and eek more out of.

354
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,600
And when I say about, you know,
amazing people being guilt

355
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,120
tripped into doing extra, I see
it the most for teaching

356
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,040
assistants.
So, Oh yeah, come on, come on.

357
00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:45,880
Don't want to help the kids out,
Don't want to stay a bit longer,

358
00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:47,800
Don't want to do this.
Of course they want to do it.

359
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:52,200
Of course they have some
intrinsic ability that is

360
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,040
amazing most of the time, and
they're well overqualified for

361
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,000
the job.
Of course, they have all of this

362
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,280
and they can deliver amazing
lessons and they can make really

363
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,160
good progress with the kids.
That doesn't mean that they

364
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,560
should do it and not be provided
with the monetary outcomes for

365
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:08,400
it.
What are we doing?

366
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,800
Like, it's not me saying you
can't do it.

367
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:12,840
It's me saying you shouldn't do
it because they're taking

368
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:14,640
advantage of you.
Capitalism, baby.

369
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,000
Profit and yield.
You know what?

370
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,520
Can I say got me that profit and
yield?

371
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,080
What can I say?
That's the sad thing because the

372
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,040
thing that gets cut first is the
teaching assistants.

373
00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,320
And, and this sounds horrible to
say, but I've said it before and

374
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:25,440
I'll say it again because it's
true.

375
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,240
You're not even saving that
much, you know, because they're

376
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,600
on such low money anyway.
It's just a low hanging fruit.

377
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,720
Let's just get rid of them and,
and ultimately it comes back to

378
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:35,920
the school staff who are on the
front line delivering to the

379
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,240
kids, right?
One the teaching assistants lost

380
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,000
their job 2.
The teacher is spread even more

381
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:42,800
thinly and can't possibly
provide the kids with.

382
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,440
What they need, no one wins.
And you know what happens when

383
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,480
that the kids don't get it?
Yeah, absolutely.

384
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:48,920
That's that's it, isn't it?
The kids don't win.

385
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,080
It's unbelievable.
So think just sticking in the

386
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:52,320
past for a minute before we move
on then.

387
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,840
So what do we say to those
people that do say, you know,

388
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,200
let's say someone grew up in the
60s, seventies, a long, long

389
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,320
time ago, and they go, I didn't,
we didn't have Tasmania back in

390
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:01,720
my day.
We didn't have Tasmania.

391
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:02,520
We didn't need them.
Yeah.

392
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,520
Didn't need them because when
you were annoying, the teacher

393
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:05,880
used to throw a board rubber at
your head.

394
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:07,880
They used to hit you with a
cane.

395
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,400
Yeah, there were other ways of
controlling classes and

396
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,160
behaviours etcetera and making
sure people behave themselves.

397
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:14,760
The attitude towards school.
Was different.

398
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,440
Well, we didn't have a, we
didn't have Sen.

399
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,400
Yeah, I'm sure he didn't.
Isn't it?

400
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,960
What are you talking about?
Just because you didn't notice

401
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:23,240
something was real?
We didn't.

402
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,960
We didn't discover Pluto until a
couple 100 years ago.

403
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,640
Was it not there until then?
Are you talking absolute

404
00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:30,040
rubbish?
We didn't have seatbugs back in

405
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:31,520
our day.
Course we all did not have them

406
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,480
anymore then.
It's such a ridiculous argument.

407
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,800
It is just mad to say that just
because at one point in history

408
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:39,440
something didn't exist, then
it's fine forever.

409
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,800
What on earth are you talking
about?

410
00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,440
Of course you are so idiotic to
say something.

411
00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:47,040
It just doesn't make sense.
I.

412
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,240
Really like the Pluto example
that is that it is like you know

413
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:50,880
when someone someone says
something you think that's in

414
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:52,880
the bank now forever.
Like that will be the analogy I

415
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:54,520
give now whenever anyone says
something like that.

416
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:56,080
Pluto didn't exist.
It didn't exist.

417
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,560
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely,
absolutely nonsense.

418
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,920
And ultimately, like you've
basically said it, but I'm going

419
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,520
to make it really clear, the
children that were fine weren't,

420
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,720
they weren't fine.
You just didn't know it or you

421
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,960
ignored it or they just got
treated differently and it

422
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:12,640
ruined their lives.
Like, do you know what I mean?

423
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,720
Is like, you can't you, we can't
just pretend those things didn't

424
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:16,599
exist.
That wasn't better.

425
00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:18,280
That wasn't better.
OK.

426
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:22,240
Not having ATA and ostracising
children was not a better

427
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,720
outcome than having Tasmania and
have a bit of inclusion.

428
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,319
Like I'd rather not go back to
that.

429
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:29,720
Yeah, if I'm honest, and just
because we got to a point where

430
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,480
there are more Tasmania than
ever in school, right?

431
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,160
Yeah, like literally it's like 4
times as much, I think from like

432
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,640
the 80s or the 90s.
That doesn't, it doesn't mean

433
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,760
that we can then use the old
school as the barometer now so

434
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:42,960
we can have half of it, can't
we?

435
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:44,760
I mean, we could, but it would
be worse.

436
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,640
There's a reason we built up so
many is because it was better

437
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,840
for the kids.
And if we take a step back, it

438
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:51,760
doesn't mean it's acceptable,
right?

439
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:53,800
It means it is worse.
We can't have this trajectory.

440
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:55,880
To me there's like this and it's
very crude.

441
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,920
I've I've oversimplified this, I
know, but like imagine over time

442
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:00,720
it's like yeah, we've got loads
more Tasmania now, so now we can

443
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:01,880
have way more inclusion in
schools.

444
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,440
That's great.
Let's get as many children in

445
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:05,200
mainstream schools as possible.
So because we can help them, we

446
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,000
can support them now.
Now let's RIP away all the

447
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:08,720
support.
Good luck.

448
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:09,960
No, no.
So what are you talking about?

449
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,480
You've.
Oversimplified it, but it's It's

450
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,320
true though the crux of what's
happening right now.

451
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:19,240
Inclusion is a myth when it's
not paired with adequate funding

452
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,040
and resources for them.
And we were kind of there.

453
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,200
It was still outstripping it.
There still wasn't enough

454
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:25,840
support.
Yeah, we increased the amount of

455
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,440
teaching assistance, but funding
was kind of not going to put as

456
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,920
much into schools anymore.
But it was Meanwhile, boom,

457
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:31,840
inclusion.
Yeah, we're going to do

458
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:33,560
inclusion.
Oh, don't you like inclusion?

459
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,000
You want children to be included
in the mainstream?

460
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,760
Aren't you a absolute ablest
pig?

461
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:39,800
Yeah.
And these are the same people

462
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,760
that were saying back in my day
we didn't have TA's and got on

463
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,160
fine, pretending that the
children weren't like that.

464
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,240
They were included back then.
Yeah, it's like you can't have

465
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,080
both.
Yeah, they weren't included then

466
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:49,720
and you didn't have TA's.
No, we had inclusion.

467
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:51,600
We included the back of the
class with a dunce cap.

468
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:53,200
Included him.
Yeah.

469
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:54,640
No, no.
Yeah, searches for a board,

470
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,800
Rubber's head, and he got sent
out every single day and no one

471
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:58,760
ever addressed the issue.
I don't know where he is now.

472
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,320
Yeah, of course you don't,
because nothing happened that

473
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,160
has ruined his life.
Yeah, yeah.

474
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,760
It's just, it's just so
simplistically stupid.

475
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,320
And when someone who's not been
involved in schools right now

476
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,160
doesn't see it happen, says how
something is I've.

477
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:12,400
I've lost all respect for that
person.

478
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,680
Yeah, that's not what it's like.
Sorry.

479
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,920
Who the fuck are you to tell?
Like what you sorry.

480
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:19,240
Have you been?
You've not oh, you've not.

481
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,360
Oh, you've not been in the
school since 1989 when you left.

482
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:22,200
Yeah.
Oh, sorry.

483
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:23,920
I will listen to what you've got
to say about in the state of the

484
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,520
school system right now.
Shut up.

485
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:26,960
Shut up.
Yeah, I agree.

486
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,080
But you know what?
Maybe a legitimate point here

487
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:32,800
and a bit more serious.
Sometimes people do criticise us

488
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,640
for maybe over hyping purely the
good side and, and, and giving

489
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:39,960
off this illusion that maybe
every single teacher, every

490
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,280
single TA, every single person
that works in the school is

491
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,600
absolutely amazing, effective at
that job and they didn't need

492
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:45,880
any support.
Leave us alone because we all

493
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,440
know what we're doing.
And I feel like we should

494
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,640
address that and talk about
Tasmania in this example.

495
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,840
Is every teacher teaching
assistant as amazing as we are

496
00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,280
alluding to here?
Or is there still a space to

497
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,240
say, do you know what though?
At the end of the day, you can

498
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,440
also still have a bad TA.
You can also still have a bad

499
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:04,760
teacher.
Like, should we have that

500
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,480
conversation?
I love how you chose to teach an

501
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:07,920
assistant chat to bring this
respect.

502
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,720
Like introspective look but are
all teachers?

503
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,880
Is we're teachers, but are all
teaching assistants?

504
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,920
You notice I said teachers as
well because I realised I don't

505
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,680
want to make it sound like I'm
just people in their jobs in

506
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,560
general, right?
But it's a point though isn't we

507
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,160
should make.
Yeah, okay, sure, we can make

508
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,080
that point, but I don't really
see the benefit of that.

509
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,320
Like I, I've never said, I've
never said those things you're

510
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:27,920
talking about.
I've never said every single

511
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:29,960
teacher and every single teacher
assistant is amazing all the

512
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,800
time in what they do.
Yeah, I'm talking about generic

513
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,520
like.
People listen, they always, they

514
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,440
always, I see it all the time.
They're always like, Oh yeah.

515
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,720
Well, I've I've had the I had
this TA that wasn't very good

516
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,200
this one time.
Sure, sure.

517
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:41,560
Brilliant.
Do you know what, I'm going to

518
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,240
be perfectly honest, in my
career I've had loads of

519
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,640
Tasmania and they're not all
equally as good.

520
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,120
No, they're not all equally the
same.

521
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:51,400
I've worked with some absolutely
top tier, unbelievable teaching

522
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,400
assistants.
I've worked with some very, very

523
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,520
good teaching assistants.
I've worked with some good

524
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,320
teaching assistants.
I've worked with some teaching

525
00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,600
assistants where actually I felt
like it didn't really help me

526
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,880
that much in the classroom
because of very with much

527
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,960
various different reasons.
And there's things we can go

528
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:06,760
into.
I don't find it helpful to do

529
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,520
that.
Like we can talk about it.

530
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:12,400
Like we can say, sure, there are
some teaching assistants who

531
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,240
very much I think go into the
role and think, oh, it is just a

532
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,560
cushy job.
I will just do the bare minimum

533
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,800
of what I need to get by and
then I'll leave the classroom

534
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,440
and that's all good and I don't
care if I'm not.

535
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,760
But you know what?
Don't care but you're.

536
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,760
Not getting paid enough to to to
plough your whole life career

537
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:29,400
into this.
That that's my point is like,

538
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,080
OK, but I'm not actually going
to go after them because they're

539
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,320
not.
They're not remotely put on this

540
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,560
pedestal.
So why am I judging them against

541
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,080
the bar of maybe what I'd say of
a teacher?

542
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,720
I've I've cringed before when
teachers have said things like

543
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,000
my ITA just leaves when it's
their time to go.

544
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,800
I'm like.
Yeah, yeah, doesn't help me tidy

545
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,880
up or Marks and books.
Yeah, that's not a them problem

546
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:50,760
mate.
That's that's a teacher problem.

547
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,920
We can talk about that.
We can talk about how as

548
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:54,920
teachers we're expected to do
all this because we've got that

549
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:56,480
way clause in our contract.
We go above and beyond.

550
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,560
It's extra.
We're in that pedestal, right?

551
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,320
We are in that pedestal.
We do get paid more, right?

552
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:01,800
So we can talk about that.
It's a discussion.

553
00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:06,520
Never in my life will I ever
expect the teaching assistant to

554
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,720
go above and beyond in that way
because they're not adequately

555
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:11,480
given money for it.
Good.

556
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,760
It's as simple as that.
So, you know, maybe you can go

557
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:15,200
into more detail here, Like,
yeah.

558
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:16,720
OK.
Do you want me to say on on

559
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,200
camera, on record, not all
teaching assistants are

560
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,040
effective.
OK, I've got.

561
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,120
I've just said.
It there you go, clipped it.

562
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,040
Yeah, that's all the matter.
No, I didn't.

563
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:23,880
You know what?
I wanted you.

564
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,040
You got you got to exactly where
I wanted to get to.

565
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,760
Because what I wanted, I wanted
to acknowledge the fact that not

566
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,280
everyone's great at their jobs.
OK, fine.

567
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:31,880
We've done that bit.
Now people can stop saying that.

568
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:33,960
We just glazed everybody and we
just oh, yeah, everyone's so

569
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,520
great.
OK, Some people can't do their

570
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,560
jobs great in every aspect ever
of every job, but we're teaching

571
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,360
assistants.
What I really wanted to get to

572
00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:44,800
is the systemic failure here of
we've expected this massive rise

573
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,480
in professionalism.
The bar has risen for them

574
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,840
hugely.
We've just not paid them

575
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,880
anymore.
That's the thing I really wanted

576
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,400
to get to.
We're just undermining these

577
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,200
people and setting this crazy
bar and going, yeah, well, just

578
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:58,400
get on with it.
Oh, that teaching assistant

579
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,000
wasn't very good.
Yeah, because they're being paid

580
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,280
4 P an hour.
What do you mean?

581
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,240
By what standard are they not
very good?

582
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,280
Yeah, like, come on.
Yeah, yeah, it just drives me

583
00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:10,320
crazy.
I've had this before, genuinely,

584
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,680
and maybe other people have
experienced this where I've been

585
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,920
into Tesco, right?
And what my point, the reason

586
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,000
I'm talking about Tesco and
retail is there are many

587
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,120
teaching assistants I know have
thought to themselves, it's, you

588
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:21,160
know, I'm just going to go into
retail.

589
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,680
I literally get paid more.
I literally get paid more to go

590
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,520
into retail and sit on a
conveyor belt and scan items,

591
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,480
right?
I'm not detrimenting that job.

592
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,520
It's an important job.
I always say this because I know

593
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,000
people text about context, the
whole point of this

594
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,040
conversation.
What I'm saying is though, the

595
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,160
expectations of teaching
assistants now does outstrip

596
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:38,720
what we expect from a retail
worker in the.

597
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,920
Shop way.
Beyond so you can get more pay

598
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,440
by having a job that you're not
expected to go and beyond as

599
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,640
much.
In case in point, I've gone to

600
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,040
the self checkouts before.
I've been scanning my stuff

601
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:48,720
away.
Right.

602
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,000
There's a there's a someone who
works and is is on the self

603
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,560
checkout.
They're having a conversation

604
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:54,680
with their mate who's on the
kiosk.

605
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,480
Yeah, right.
Long conversation, ignoring me.

606
00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,160
Oh, next person also needs some
help.

607
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:00,320
Oh, there's three people now
that need help.

608
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,960
Suddenly inside, I feel myself
going for God's.

609
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,960
Come on, for God's sake.
It's the most simple part of

610
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,880
your job.
Like just watch what's going on

611
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:07,520
and fix it.
Please.

612
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:08,960
Come on.
I've got to wait around now.

613
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,080
But you know what happens after
that?

614
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,200
I go, yeah, why should they
care?

615
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,360
Yeah, why should they care?
So this attitude of like, yeah,

616
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:17,520
I mean, I wouldn't if I were
them.

617
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,400
I used to work in retail.
They can wait for a second.

618
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,160
I was it not the best customer
service in the world?

619
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:22,120
No.
Do you want me to say that to

620
00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:23,680
everyone right now?
You're not amazing at your job.

621
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:24,600
Fine.
You're amazing at job.

622
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,200
They probably don't care.
They have a chat with their mate

623
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:28,560
and they're getting paid a
pittance.

624
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:30,920
I allow that when it comes to
other jobs.

625
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:33,760
But when it comes to teaching
assistants, people really do the

626
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,560
same way they do as teachers.
Like, well, you're working with

627
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:36,760
the kids.
It's the most important thing in

628
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,040
the world.
Isn't it good that we're adding

629
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,560
more professionalism?
Isn't it great that you get to

630
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:40,960
teach the kids?
Isn't it fantastic that you're

631
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,960
going to mark and and plan and
do all this extra stuff for the

632
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:44,240
children?
It's for the children, right?

633
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,120
No, we need to just have a line
and say, what do you expect from

634
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:50,720
them?
And the reason I have a Revere

635
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,560
teaching assistant so much
because so many of them go above

636
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,360
and beyond.
So many of them are amazing.

637
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,480
And instead of focusing on the
few who maybe aren't as good, I

638
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,600
don't see a point in doing that.
What I'm going to do instead is

639
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,960
talk about the ones who are
unbelievable with the children

640
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,200
who go above and beyond to do
amazing work at the job and

641
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,320
they're being exploited.
That's a more interesting

642
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:09,880
conversation to me that I think
is more useful.

643
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,800
Having I agree, I couldn't agree
more.

644
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,480
And there's and there's one
other angle to this that I just

645
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,760
want to get and I feel like I've
completed this like section of

646
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,240
the conversation, which is when
it comes like, OK, think about

647
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,320
teachers SLT.
We really value, I think,

648
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,280
training that goes into being
able to deliver those roles

649
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,120
really well over time and
experience.

650
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,520
Whereas with teaching
assistants, I really feel like

651
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,040
even though again as
acknowledges the bar has risen,

652
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:35,960
the pay has stayed the same, the
expectations are higher than

653
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:37,160
ever.
It's a really important job.

654
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,960
I feel like training and
deployment of teaching

655
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,080
assistants is like the weakest
area of schools.

656
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,160
How how many times have in our
career have we realised that the

657
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,560
Tasmania haven't been trained on
something that we put into place

658
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,600
two years ago in in the school
for maths or English or

659
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:54,800
something?
Oh yeah, we probably probably

660
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,960
should have told them about that
before we expect them to now run

661
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:57,920
an intervention on it.
Yeah.

662
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,400
Like they're often the bottom of
the pile in terms of training

663
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,400
despite us having this crazy
expectations.

664
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:03,800
It just doesn't make any sense
to me.

665
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,000
Like what?
Do you have anything to say?

666
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:07,640
No, no, that you've hit the noun
on the head.

667
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,800
I think that's all we can say
really genuinely, you're, you've

668
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,920
absolutely hit the noun on the
head in terms of the

669
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,280
expectations arisen so much.
But we still for some reason

670
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,520
expect more of them than
sometimes of the the the

671
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,280
teachers.
And we said this before about

672
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,240
how, you know, when a teacher
teaches a lesson, they have the

673
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,080
support of teaching assistant.
If that teaches out and then the

674
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,840
teaching assistant covers the
teaching assistant doesn't have

675
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,600
a teaching assistant, We're
expecting more of them, right.

676
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,480
And sure, you know, in a good
school when that happens,

677
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:34,680
because this happens in good
schools.

678
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,640
Don't get me wrong.
It's just a reality of education

679
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,080
right now in good schools.
What happens is the teacher,

680
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,880
this is what I always did or the
SLT will say to the teaching

681
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,160
system, listen, please, please
don't worry about getting

682
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,280
through this whole lesson.
Please don't worry about marking

683
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,000
the things at the end.
Please don't worry about XYZ.

684
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,840
Right.
And understand that in you

685
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,080
taking away their support and
them doing your job for which

686
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,520
they are less qualified than
you, you've lowered the bar.

687
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,520
And accepting that there are
some places out there that

688
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,480
never, ever, ever accept any
lowering of the bar whatsoever.

689
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,760
And they're the toxic places
where we are expecting more and

690
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,720
more and more of these people to
fill the gap for what they're

691
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,320
not trained to do or paid to do.
And they're the ones who bear

692
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,040
the brunt of it.
Because at the end of the day,

693
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,880
it's my job to be at that bar.
That's why I'm a professional.

694
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,480
I'm, I'm trained, I'm paid for
it.

695
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,360
I've got the qualifications as a
teacher.

696
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,240
Yeah, my bar is there and it
should be there.

697
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,480
I I should be bloody good at
what I do when when someone else

698
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,960
steps in as a teaching assistant
who's paid nothing and doesn't

699
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,600
have those qualifications,
they're still expected to get to

700
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,160
that bar.
It's them that is the one that

701
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,440
are under pressure.
It's them that are covering too

702
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,400
much.
And it's them that really do not

703
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,360
get any benefit whatsoever from
saying no, that kids need all

704
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:48,040
this all the time.
No, be realistic and look after

705
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,680
your staff because it's, it's
just unacceptable.

706
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,200
Yeah.
And and going back to the

707
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,360
original point and it's then
that's not getting the training

708
00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:56,000
to do the.
The get to get to that bar in

709
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,040
the 1st place.
My favourite thing, and I know

710
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,360
you'll have experiences as well,
is when as staff you finish your

711
00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:05,360
hour long CPD session whenever
it is and the person finishes by

712
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:07,480
saying.
And just make sure you have a

713
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,080
quick chat of your TA and just
tell them this as well so that

714
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:11,680
when they're covering they know
what to do as well.

715
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,560
Okay, so I, the teacher needed
an hour and I can give this now

716
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,680
to my TA who will be measured by
the same bar in 12 second

717
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,720
conversation at the start of
next lesson when they cover.

718
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:22,880
Got ya.
Cool.

719
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,840
That just to me like I'm like
there you go.

720
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,360
That's summarise it, doesn't it?
Yeah, the lowest member, lowest

721
00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:29,320
paid member of staff as well.
Yeah, all these things.

722
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,440
I feel like we should round off
this conversation about Tasmania

723
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,560
by going to something nice and
just talking about the

724
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,960
relationships that we can have,
like as as teachers and teaching

725
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,360
assistants, Because I want to
start by saying that I've had

726
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,000
some unbelievably nice
relationships with my TA.

727
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,280
And I think back to a quick
story of my first ever TA, Mike

728
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,640
Brown.
If you're listening big up Mike

729
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,440
Brown, you're amazing man.
But the relationship we had in

730
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,600
the class, it was to me when I
was a newly qualified teacher,

731
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,720
it was another teacher.
He was, he had been in schools

732
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,040
longer than I am because it was
my first year.

733
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,160
He had been around, you know,
for, for years before that.

734
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,200
I learned so much from him about
literally how to speak to

735
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,600
children, how to manage
behaviour, what sort of

736
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,200
groupings to put together
because he just knew the

737
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,680
children better than I did.
And I remember I used to write

738
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:12,920
my lesson plans every week,
right?

739
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,080
He was always gobsmacked by this
because I looking back is quite

740
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:16,760
funny because obviously no one
else would do this.

741
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,520
I'd write out my weekly Lesson
plan quite in detail and I'd

742
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,160
write a whole section of like
where I'd like to deploy him

743
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,120
because I was really trying to
work on my TA deployment.

744
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,400
And he was always like, oh, wow,
no one's ever done this before.

745
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,920
But he loved it and like and
respected it And, and we just

746
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,760
built up such a, such a genuine
nice bond and friendship.

747
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,320
And I just think if I didn't
have that the, the, it would

748
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:40,240
have been such a significant
decline in, in like what I was

749
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,280
giving the provision for the
children from him not being

750
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,240
there.
And a lot of that was genuinely

751
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,520
down to the fact that we had
such a nice relationship.

752
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,960
And I'm just wondering if
because we've had a few

753
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,160
conversations about TAS before
and I don't think you, I think

754
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,840
I've had more TAS than you have
over over my career.

755
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,520
Yeah, you've had a lot of
situations where you haven't

756
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,160
actually had ATA.
Yeah, a lot of the time for

757
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,160
example, like because TA is,
it's not something you get all

758
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,400
the time.
Maybe I had just learning groups

759
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,280
and maths or sets and stuff in
the school where that that class

760
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,520
just for a reason didn't.
Yeah, but I've I've had a lot

761
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,440
of.
I've had a lot of teaching

762
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,400
assistants, I have worked with a
lot of teaching assistants and I

763
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,440
think there's a, there's a few,
there's a few things to say

764
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,760
about this.
The first one is that they are

765
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,920
often the ones that you spend
the most time with simply

766
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:20,880
because they're in your
classroom.

767
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,680
If you even if you think about,
you know, working in a free or

768
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,080
for elementary school, you
think, well, I've got a team.

769
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,840
Not really like you don't really
see them every day.

770
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,680
Still like I am stood at the
front of the class with my with,

771
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,440
with the rest of the children
there and my teaching assistant,

772
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,120
they who I see all the time.
And a big thing for me, again,

773
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:39,760
you're right, the, the
relationships you build, you're

774
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,400
teaching assistant are special.
And I think we really need to

775
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,840
put in a pedestal their skill
set, right?

776
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:47,760
Because we just talked a lot
there about how they're not

777
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,800
given the training we're given.
They can't do these exact

778
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:51,400
things.
It's not acceptable, it's not

779
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,280
right.
But let's just flip it on its

780
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,120
head for a minute because I
found a lot of the people in

781
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,680
schools with the most emotional
intelligence and the most, you

782
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,200
know, the highest bar of empathy
and ability to bond with the

783
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,120
children and ability to make
those relationships quickly and

784
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,400
have respect of the children.
And also by the way,

785
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,080
intellectually, in terms of
understanding the concepts and

786
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,080
being able to actually teach as
well, all of those things, I've

787
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,920
often found teaching assistants,
there's no level where they're

788
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:21,760
all below the teachers.
Quite often they're better than

789
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,160
some teachers.
Yeah, definitely.

790
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:24,920
I think that's like you've
nailed up my head because I was

791
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,040
just thinking, what was it about
Mike that I really just loved

792
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,560
having the classroom for?
It was his ability to understand

793
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,320
the emotions of the kids.
He was such a good emotional

794
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:34,960
support.
And I think about other TAS,

795
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:35,920
right?
I think about just strengths

796
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,800
which could pick some people up.
We think about Angie, another

797
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,360
amazing TA that we both shared,
and she was just a godsend for

798
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,120
us early in our career.
But her, like, think about, she

799
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,360
had lots of skill sets, but one
of the things that comes to mind

800
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,200
is her impeccable behaviour
management.

801
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,680
Yeah, she was.
It was incredible how she

802
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,480
managed to sneak around the
classroom like a ninja and keep

803
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,600
the children focused on track
and just, like, manage their

804
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,480
behaviour in a nice way where
they respected her.

805
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,760
It was incredible.
And then I think, you know, more

806
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:04,160
recently, I, I had ATA called
Georgia and she we just the, the

807
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,760
dynamics that we had in the
classroom, I often feel like

808
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,240
that's something that doesn't
get spoken about.

809
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,320
The dynamics that me and Georgia
had as teacher in TA brought

810
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,560
like some life to the class and
the children loved it.

811
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,400
And they felt that they could be
a part of that little community

812
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:18,720
that we'd made.
Like we were just like a little

813
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,360
family.
And we had, yeah, we had the

814
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,760
banter, we had the silly times.
But then when it came down to

815
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,480
being professional and getting
on with things, it was there and

816
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,360
they respected it for us.
They respected both of us

817
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,560
equally.
We were just a Group, A unit and

818
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,400
I just feel like none of, I
couldn't have had any of these

819
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,080
things if I didn't have that TA
in the classroom.

820
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,320
So I, I couldn't be more of an
advocate for teaching

821
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,400
assistants.
And, and it really does sad to

822
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:39,600
me.
And I'm, I think this hopefully

823
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,440
comes across in the podcast
because we talk about it a lot,

824
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,680
but I could not be more sad at
the idea that TAS are feeling

825
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,800
like pushed out of the job.
We're just, they're just

826
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,600
declining in numbers in general.
Their pay is not going up.

827
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,040
Their working conditions are
just getting worse.

828
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,160
All of these things, it's so
dire, not only for me from that

829
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,920
from that personal perspective
and those relationships I build,

830
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,040
but ultimately, like you said,
it trickles down to the kids.

831
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,200
The kids are missing out on.
Imagine they didn't have the

832
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,800
Mike Brown, the Angie, the
Georgia, they, they would miss

833
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,720
out so much emotional support,
behaviour support, learning

834
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,080
support, community, everything.
Like, yeah, I just couldn't have

835
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:13,200
it without them.
Completely.

836
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,040
A new list of names makes me
just think of all the teaching

837
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,400
assistants I've had because,
again, they're the first people

838
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:19,720
that come to my mind as a
teacher.

839
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,240
There's a reason for that,
because they're vital, they're

840
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,760
so important, and they're who
are with you most of the time.

841
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,000
I think of Lisa Regan, Angie
Mullen.

842
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:27,480
Yeah.
Yeah.

843
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,640
Laura Drummond, Jackie Daly.
Jackie Daly.

844
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,840
I'm going to miss people.
I'm going to miss people out

845
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,440
here.
But the point is that there are

846
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,520
just so many, many different
people who stick in my brain as

847
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,600
people I really, really respect
and really, really admire and

848
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,560
who I have physically seen in
the classroom make a difference

849
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,720
with those kids.
And that sticks with you when

850
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,200
you notice that.
And one thing I will say just to

851
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,680
kind of round this off, I really
do genuinely feel like when you

852
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,040
work with someone else in your
room who you really click with,

853
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,240
who's really, really on the same
page as you as a teaching

854
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,520
assistant, I think that you are
more than the sum of your parts.

855
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,120
I do think that you've got your
skills as a teacher, they've got

856
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:07,480
their skills as a teaching
assistant.

857
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,000
But then when you work together
and really go as a team, it's

858
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:12,760
not just the combined efforts of
you both.

859
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,719
It's more than that.
Like you said, you curate this

860
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,639
idea of that the children go to
whoever they want to in the

861
00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:20,560
classroom, this idea of there
are two adults to help you.

862
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,080
You're a you're, you're a
community, like you said, and

863
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,440
you can really foster that.
And it's it is harder to foster

864
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,000
that without another pair of
hands or another person also

865
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:35,000
just to sometimes look at and go
and you see that as well.

866
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:36,679
Did you see that?
And they're like, yeah, I saw

867
00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:37,600
that.
You're like, I'm not going

868
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,440
mental, OK?
I'm going to carry on the crack.

869
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,320
On and you have that little
smile that you share that

870
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,000
awkward little laugh you say
shut up kids I'm.

871
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:45,600
Trying to talk to the teaching
assistant.

872
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,239
I've had enough.
I've had enough for you lot.

873
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:48,719
Yeah.
And they're, they're patting you

874
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:49,920
on the back.
Yeah, exactly.

875
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:50,960
Getting your social support for.
US.

876
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,120
Yeah, Ready to be.
Fired.

877
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:52,960
Yeah.
Because you're winning.

878
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:54,520
You've just lost it.
Yeah.

879
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,040
Oh, I just love them.
And yeah, I'll always be a huge

880
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,040
advocate for them because there
are some things you can't

881
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:02,760
measure.
I can imagine being a sat in

882
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,160
that trust meeting up there.
Well, the numbers aren't adding

883
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:06,280
up.
We've got to be cut, cut, cut,

884
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,120
cut, cut.
You can't measure what we've

885
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,680
just talked about a lot of it.
And it's vital.

886
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,200
It's vital to our kids.
And yeah, the the more we get

887
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,200
rid of them, the less our
children will get.

888
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:17,840
And we'll see it through other
metrics.

889
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,880
You know, there might be a
teaching assistant out there and

890
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,720
then, well, there is a teaching
assistant out there who stopped

891
00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:24,200
the child getting excluded.
Yeah.

892
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,120
Just from a relationship and I
can think of examples right now.

893
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,160
And if we didn't have the
teacher assistants, which we

894
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,800
won't have if it keeps going as
it is, we will see that number

895
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,000
increase.
And we're like, oh, why?

896
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:35,040
What are the teachers doing
wrong?

897
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:35,960
What are the schools doing
wrong?

898
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,760
Well, the attitudes wrong.
Maybe it's the systemic cuts

899
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,800
that you've got to the most
important fundamental parts of

900
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,320
education.
Maybe it's that.

901
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,480
Yeah, it could be.
No, we need another decade to

902
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,680
work that out.
OK.

903
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,880
Yeah, frustrating, but out for
the love.

904
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,960
And if you're a teaching
assistant listening to this, we

905
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,040
appreciate you massively.
And if you're a teacher

906
00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,160
listening to this or an SLT
member, just show them some some

907
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,680
some of your love appreciation.
Yeah, definitely.

908
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:04,120
And we and we appreciate you 2
OK.

909
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:05,840
Yeah, we'll do enough.
Well, we do.

910
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,040
We do enough.
You've got enough, You've got

911
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,960
enough.
Geez, stop letting him out in

912
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,080
oh.
TA's get one episode.

913
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:11,560
Yeah.
All right.

914
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:11,960
Yeah.
All right.

915
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,520
We'll give you next week as
well, if you're going to go on

916
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,640
about it anyway.
Amazing.

917
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:16,440
Let's wrap it up there.
Cool.

918
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:18,240
Thanks.
See ya.