Ep 172: Q+A: Student Loan Debt, Declining Literacy Levels & A Maths Debate!

0:00 Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Teacher Repeat. My name is Dylan. And my name is Hayden. For some reason I've got a Margaret Mine just I've. Only just realised I was thinking about myself. I'm gonna keep it like it's gonna be like a flashback. Do you what you look like one a teacher. Thank you. That's you look like a teacher. You be good at that. Can I get it behind my ear? If it goes there, it will stay there. Oh oh, it's great for listeners. This is fantastic podcast. There you go. For listeners, it is behind his ear. Thank you listeners of the podcast. You, please. Some people are watching. Yeah, some people. Many. I used to this all the time as a teacher. And the kids, kids pick up on stuff, don't they? Small little changes or something. They just notice it. Like if you have a haircut, it's the biggest big thing in the world the next day.

0:41 And I got to the point in my career where towards the end of the school year when they're all really, we're all really comfortable with each other, obviously. And one kid I always remember put their pen behind their ear and rolled the sleeves up. I'm saying I missed the price. Look at me, I missed the price. Then the whole kids, the whole past that's. Really, it's like. That's the two things that they take for me as a teacher. Things behind his ear. Yeah. Sleeves rolled up. Yeah, that mean it was always like a running joke at the school. It was like a it was like a cute little internal joke, wasn't it? At the school, Dylan would walk into the staff room for the for the meeting or whatever, and everyone would be like, oh, look at Dylan and you'll be like, oh, where's my pen? Where's my pen? You's my pen. You've got the pen behind your ear, Dylan. We'd all have it was really nice. And the ultimate version was when I had a pen behind both ears. Yes, 1 green for marking, 1 pencil. Just you never know. Yeah, and never know. And you get really annoyed really quickly at stuff. So when you couldn't find that pen in two seconds, shut up. You'd be like I'm.

1:25 Not gonna know quickly. I'm gonna know quickly. Yeah, it's really annoying. I don't know quickly. First question, when you write 3 * 4, what are you actually? What are you actually representing? Not the first question, but let's go. Come on, I know you waiting for it. Context here and cause what you're what's gonna happen is you're gonna make me out to sound like I think something is wrong is. Wrong. You're gonna make me out to sound like I was getting angry unreasonably. So let's. Let's go. Didn't say not angry though, just unreasonably. That's what we're judging. Here oh, I was getting. We have just recorded a reel that you'll see, you probably have seen already on Instagram about 3 * 4 and whether it means three lots of four, which it does, which is three groups of four, which is true in repeated edition, Repeated edition, it's backed up by the NCTM. Anything reputable that you can? Use can I just, can I dive into this quickly because we've just glossed over that because it's a huge thing. It's a huge thing where teachers who've taught maths for years and years and years, who we really respect have had the opposite view of what it means.

2:14 And we're just going to dive in for just very quickly. I just want to give the groundwork for everyone listening because 3 * 4, there'll be lots of people saying what the hell, who cares? It's the same as 4 * 3. No multiplication is repeated addition. 3 * 4 is 4 three times. You have to kind of work backwards. What you are repeatedly adding is the second number in a times table question. It's why when you're learning a times table, the times table you're learning comes second, right? 1 * 7 is 7/2 times, 7 is 14. You're adding seven each time. And it's very common for people to think that you're repeatedly adding the first number. Yeah. So in 3 * 4, lots of people will think it's 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 and it just isn't, and that's just a mathematical fact.

2:56 I agree. And I thought of a really good way to absolutely, undeniably prove that genuinely with algebra, when you write 3X, we all know that means three groups of whatever X is. We know that is what it means. And so the only thing I came back at dealing with because I think it's interesting that semantically lots of is a one way meaning three lots of four logically and the way it sounds can only mean three groups of four. It just doesn't make sense that that that those words could mean four lots of. Four times even three times? How often does the four come up? Three times? You literally say 3 * 4. Exactly right. And and my only thing, because this is what I see online people talking about it, is the the specific phrase multiplied by also has or at least it feels like in the way language works, it has a one way meaning of if I said 3 * 4, it very much sounds and feels like you've got 3 and you're multiplying that by 4 as in four times you're taking three and it's multiplying.

3:51 Think about how we use multiplying in science. When something multiplies, it multiplies out four times. Getting angry bashing a microphone. No, I'm not getting angry. I was just fine because as I was trying to say that you do you do what you do best, which was Nah Nah, you just shouted at me and basically telling me I run before I finished the. Point because it was, it was the 64th time I've explained how the word that's a misunderstanding of what's going on and all. Also, if you want to push it to the enth degree of I'm saying 3 * 4 and I mean 3 * 4, fine, you should write it down as 4 * 3. Yeah, that's whatever then whatever you mean. But when you look at firstly, the number sentence on a whiteboard that says 4 * 3 you, it does. That does not mean multiplied by three and having three lots of four, it literally doesn't mean that. And you can say, well, I think it means that well, you're wrong.

4:36 Like only only at the 10th, 11th, 12th, 15th, 45th, 785th time for explaining do I start to think there's not much more I can tell you here. What you're thinking is right is wrong and and it's OK to be wrong. It's fine. So here's the irony. I agree with that. And I already know this. Yeah. And all I was saying to you was maybe we should address that in the video. And you were like, no. There's a coming cover. Like that's the thing people get wrong because it does sound right and we just need to explain that the phrase, even though it sounds like that, yeah, it is just a misinterpretation of of the multiplication. Symbols. So if you see on the board 4X34 lots of three 4 * 3, you should. If you want to be really picky and say, well, linguistically this means that you should read that as 3 * 4. Yeah, you should read it backwards then. Like you want to be really picky about it, but this is specifically about people who look at the writing first and say that's 4 * 3 and therefore it means that no, it doesn't. You are wrong.

5:33 Exactly, and I wish we'd filmed that. Because that's what I meant. But we've got it now and when someone rage bait comments, which is what we want online on our social media, sometimes we'll be able to explain it to them. But it's just frustrating, and I get it because it can be quite Maths is a very precious subject. People get very, very precious about it. We've been doing videos online about explainers, how to teach stuff. And a big, big thing for us, and a lot of the videos we do is that there are lots of ways to do maths right. There are lots of ways to do maths. But what I find interesting, running along parallel to that fact that there are lots of ways to do maths. Quite often there's only one way to properly explain something. Yeah. And other ways are just wrong. So you've got to always balance that. You know when you're explaining that when you do short multiplication and the four in the 10s column is actually 40 and therefore it's 40 * 6, not just 4 * 6, and you get to your answer, etcetera, and you move on.

6:22 There is only one way of really accurately explaining that, right? Yeah. But there are multiple ways that you can write out or do a process or have shortcuts to get to a right answer. Exactly. Yeah. So I, I always find like my job as a maths teacher is to hold really high standards on vocabulary, your language, you'll use your explanations of why things work, but then letting the kids run loose within that confine and having three or four different ways of doing. Something exactly particularly important when it is commutative, because at the end of the day, addition and multiplication, you're going to get the same answer, which is why people, I guess, gloss over this and why there are so many misconceptions. Because ultimately people go, oh, it doesn't really matter because we get the same answer. But it we wouldn't say it doesn't matter with subtraction. We wouldn't say that with division that 24 / 3 could be either way because Oh no, it can't.

7:05 That's got a very, very, very specific meaning and a very specific way of showing that visually. And there's no reason multiplication shouldn't be held to the same standards. It's just that because you get the same answer, we don't really don't really care. And clearly, just because you get the same answer, it doesn't mean it's representing something the same that's happening. We did the example on the video of 99 + 1 is 120 * 5 is 100. But if we actually breakdown what the maths is doing there, it's representing something that's happening in the real world usually, right? That's the application of maths, and we're showing something as a visual representation. I'd draw those two things very differently. And if I was imagining a situation in my head where let's say you had 99 suites and I had one and we put them together, that even in itself is a very different description of if I had 50 suites and you had 50 suites.

7:50 Yeah, even 50 + 50 is very different to 99 + 1, even though the answer, it only represents one part of the story we're telling here. That's why I really like in early years in Key Stage 1, where mass is embedded in storytelling, because it makes it real. It makes the children visualise the numbers and what the operations are actually doing to the numbers itself. OK. What about this one then? Because this is probably the closest thing you can get to what we did with multiplication, which was literally we were just expressing the commutativity of numbers and showing how the representations changes 99 + 1 or 1 + 99. It's like you having 99 and me having one, or me having 99 and you having one. Yes, the answer's the same. And the fact we're putting our, pulling it together in our story, maybe the outcome is we have 100 to do the same task, right? The outcome is the same, but the story and the visualisation is different.

8:35 It's very different me having 99 of something or one of something. And if you translate that to the real world, you are often not working backwards. When you look at a number sentence on a board, you see everything, right? You see what's happening, the multiplication symbol, the addition symbol, whatever the operation is and you see the answer all at once. So you can interpret the answer 1st and then work backwards. That's why a lot of people think, oh, it doesn't matter, they're both 100. It doesn't matter if I swap it In real life, what tends to happen with maths is when you're working through a problem, you are working linearly. So you already have 99, already have one. And then I need to figure out that we find the total. I need to figure out that we're adding. You might have to figure out that we're taking away. You might have to figure out that we're multiplying for every reason we have lots of and bags of things, right.

9:15 So that process of actually problem solving and looking at what's happening lends itself to a really powerful thing when you're teaching mass, which is to be really explicit about what the number sentence is actually showing you and not just obsessing over the answer at the end. Yeah. And there is a correct way to visualise that, which is essentially what you were saying there. Even with that, if it said I have 99 and we visualised me of 1, yeah, and you have one visualizer, you have 99, that is just wrong. You know, the answer becomes the same. Finding one more is different to finding 99 more. Like if you think about how you can do phrase addition differently, find one more than 99, find 99 more than one. They are different things ultimately. And they might be more efficient now, it'd be less efficient. And if you know the links between them and how it works and you have that base understanding, eventually absolutely, you just swap them around.

9:59 I say to the children all the time, my year 4 class when we're proficient with our times tables, let's say up to 8. So you do twos, fives and 10s in key stage one. In year 3, you're doing your 3 fours and eights. And in year 4 we're learning a six or seven or 86 or sevens and nines. And then we're doing right, left in the twelves, right. There's some point in year 4 where my class were really proficient in their threes, fours and eights and we were learning our sevens. So when we first introduced our sevens, I would say to them, OK, look, that says 8 * 7. And the children would be like, oh God, that's infamously tricky. One 8 * 7. I don't know, my sevens, a child would say to me, and I'd say immediately back, but what do you know? What? Look at that question. What do you know and about what? I know my eights. Yeah, right.

10:41 Let's count in eights. I understand, right? I get the fact that 8 * 7 means 8 lots of seven. And technically you should be adding up in sevens, right? Otherwise it would say 7 * 8. But for that child who understands commutativity because they have a good base knowledge of understanding for the whole journey, I can then do the shortcut of we can swap it around. It's the same. I want to get to an answer here. And we understand that there's a commutativity between these two numbers. So why don't we do 7 * 8? Why don't we add up in our eights, which we can do 7 times? Look, you know it's 56. By the way, that matches the other way around because of commutativity. In fact, you know most of your sevens already. You know one lot of seven, you know 2, you know three, you know 4, you know 5, you know 6, you know 10.

11:26 You know most of your sevens already because of cumulativity, not because you suddenly know how to count in sevens. And technically if we were to break down the seven times table question, you struggle with all of them because you can't count in your sevens yet. But if we have that base understanding and don't just go to the shortcut, I've just swapped them, the answers the same. That's going to build and reinforce later on and you'll see the benefits I think in the long run. And that's why it's important. And that's why when someone gets angry at me when I say 4 * 3 is 4, lots of three is 3 + 3 + 3 + 3, when someone says well no, it's 4 + 4 + 4. You could do this, you did that. I understand right, but you are wrong. Yeah, Yeah. Ultimately, ultimately you should put, I tell you what, you should build a math platform. I'm telling you, I'm telling you. I love maths.

12:11 If you did build a math platform, what would you call it? I. Think I'd call it maths and I think I put a link down below so you could book a demo if we go to school. That's crazy. That's crazy that you could book a demo and find out what we're all about. We've had 100% success rate so far on even people from math hubs and. Yeah, and see what others have, really. Enjoyed the products and drink. It's going to be transformational. That's crazy. But anyway. We'll let you know if we ever do that. Should we get to the actual first question? Yeah. Yeah, By the way, I'm just going to say just finish this off anytime in the future. We have some basically anytime in the future where I am trying to say something slightly different and you go blah, blah, blah, blah. Don't want to listen to me? We'll do it on the podcast because then you listen to me. We actually have a really nice conversation and we get to the actual conclusion, which I wanted to get to you. Earlier I know you too well, right? I can't be bothered if we can't get a viral clip out of it, what's the point? Right, guys, shut up.

12:55 You vote now in the poll that doesn't exist. Should should we have included an explanation of why multiplied by might cause some misconceptions or not? And if it's not, don't tell me. Listen, I'll do another video. I'll. Do another video. They're going down well though, so thank you everyone. Go and check out our Instagram or TikTok. We're doing some math explainers. They are doing very well and we love it, Deed, we love it. Do it until the cows come home. We came here today to film this and I said to Aiden, we need to film this video right now. And I've got the whiteboard out. Yeah, yeah. That's why actually, going full circle, I've got this and. That's what's sparked the 1st 15 minutes of this podcast. Shall we go to our first question? Go on, you read it. From I'm not sure this could be a correct name. Liz Lanya.

13:37 Yeah. Lasagna. Lasagna. I got it. Very good if it is your real name. Lovely name. Love the cuisine, the name. Oh God oh God. Hi boys, I was thinking about the teacher. Sorry, there's something about high boys that relaxes. Me. Hi, boys. It's nice, isn't it? It's nice, yeah. Lovely. I'm a man though, and I'm always right. I'm a man. Amanda's always right. No, I'm always right when I'm explicitly saying you I'm right. Yeah, like we said with the cucumber, don't maybe come back to the cucumber come. Back to the cucumber. Don't what you did to me on the cucumber. That can't happen again all. Right. Explain it quickly because a lot of people won't know what's the cucumber. Story We were in Tesco. I won a cucumber in my sandwich. We were going back to Hayden's. I said to Hayden, is there cucumber in your house?

14:18 You went yeah. And I went no, it's there definitely cucumber in your house. And you went yeah, 99%. I was like, well it's not yes then, is it? It's maybe. I think so. I'm pretty sure. Is it yes or no? And you went Yeah. And I went. Hayden, please, please. You've got to be. It's 100. If it's 99%, I'll spend £0.40 on a cucumber for a sandwich. You went. Oh, OK. Yeah, 100%. I went OK. I trust you went back to yours. No cucumber in the bloody fridge. I would have spent £0.40. Just say if you don't know for sure something's right, don't say yes. Say I'm pretty sure. And that's why my outlook is if I'm saying it's definitely something, it's because I am 100% sure. Sometimes. Am I wrong? Maybe. But I like to think that I have that as my boundary, especially when it comes to cucumber if I'm running my sandwich. And that is why he no longer listens to a single thing I say and will.

15:00 I don't trust you. Here we go. Right question. Hi, boys. That's nice. I was thinking about the teacher recruitment crisis and I have an idea which I think you will love. I think we should forgive student loans of any teacher of more than 10 years service really incentivize staying with it. What do you guys say? That's really interesting because I look at retention and recruitment in general and I do think that we said it before, it's heavily way towards recruitment. I actually still think this would hit recruitment well as an idea, definitely, but I think more than that, retainment would help so much. Right? 100% I got to 9 years out of that extra year. Yeah, got you.

15:42 I'd have done an extra year I. Mean, I would do that as seven, yeah, if I was seven years deep, yeah. And I was like, if I quit now, I'll have a student loan forever, genuinely, because that's how it works, because it's it's so rigged that you can't actually pay it off ever because the interest payments are the interest is higher than the actual payments. Student tax. Ridiculous. It's just, it's just a 9% tax on anyone that's under a certain age. If I was at 7 years, it's six years. Maybe. I don't know where the bar is. Five years if I did, one year in if I. Was just thinking of going into teaching that's. Amazing around but you would though wouldn't you? There is a point where it would be a no brainer. You'd be like, it's worth a three-year investment of my time to do a job that ultimately I do still love to have my entire student. Loan White. OK, do you think then just flipping this straight away because both of us think immediately it's a good idea, Maybe we can go into why student loans are just an absolute nonsense in a second name. But OK, thinking of the other side of the argument here, do you think it would wrongly incentivize people who actually don't want to do the job anymore, aren't fully invested in it, but think to themselves, Oh well I'm 7-8 years in, I'll just do it for a couple more years, not put my all into it, not be the best teacher I can be. Very expensive on the pay scale, potentially blocking out jobs for people who are coming in.

16:49 Do you think that's an issue? Or is the fact that recruitment and retention is so poor we need teachers overriding that immediately? I think that is an issue. I don't think you can ever have a perfect situation where there's not going to be some sort of downside to a situation like this. I don't think it's enough to make the idea not good enough. I think it's already an issue. I think people are already trapped in in, in all walks of life. People are already just trapped in their jobs financially. Like for loads of reasons. That's like actually really just common and normal. So I'm like, OK, OK. Does it add a little bit more to the already massive epidemic of people being trapped in jobs like they don't want to do because the job's horrendous for their well-being, but they have to because they've got a mortgage? Yeah, maybe. But. So now think about those who are leaving because the whole point is people are leaving. This will make them not leave. So Hyperware are now not the ones who are just trapped in the job anyway.

17:33 Because if you are being really cynical about it, those who are just trapped in the job anyway, save your money, don't get rid of the student loan. They're staying anyway. So it's hyper focused now on the people who are actually going to leave because we want them to not leave. Do you think that would incentivize them to say, do you know what? I'll stay because I look, I left after nine years and I genuinely look at this and I think I would have done another year and then I would have quit straight after. So like is that worth the amount of money that would be wiped off my student? Loan yeah that that's probably more interesting to me is I think you'd then see a massive drop off in like when teachers get to 10 years and you get this huge like epidemic of people quitting for 10 years I think that's what that's probably what happened then you'd have a new problem to address I don't think it solves anything I just think it is what it's it's one thing I think alongside maybe lots of other incentives mainly just making the job more bearable I think this is a really nice perk maybe that's the way to look at it I think ultimately the problem of retention is a much bigger systemic issue with education and mostly to do with teacher workload and mostly to do with yeah just the conditions of in in working as a teacher whereas and I think there's also on top of that literally no perks anyway yeah so maybe that perk would be enough just.

18:41 To but if you're moving jobs like holidays is a perk. There are perks of the job that keep people in the job. So you think adding this on would help some way, but not maybe matter I. Think some way I think it would be a nod in the right direction of, oh, we do actually value teachers because at the moment the moralist is is through the floor. Would it be worth the money? From the government. 'S perspective it sounds, it sounds as if what you're saying it's not worth the money, but it's a nice. Thing I think if we think of it from a business perspective just. From the yeah balance of the budget, is it worth the investment from the government to do this? Is it worth it? I'd say so, yeah, I'd say so. I think if we look at, I think if you took a random selection of people who have been, who right now have been working for more than 10 years, I reckon on average those people have paid off what they pay for the student loan in interest in that time anyway. On average, I reckon there's some people may be closer to the 10 year where it's like actually know that if they did another eight years, maybe their interest payments would have covered it.

19:31 But I've, I know when I looked at student loans, it was like, oh, if you pay this for the full 35 years or whatever it is now, you pay that loan off like five times in interest alone. It's ridiculous. So do you know what? Yeah, it's a worthy investment. They've already paid their bloody student loans back anyway in interest. Playing a private company who you've who you've given a contract to to manage the funds of the next generation who you tricked into thinking needed the university degree to get on in life. Exactly right. Here's the issue I have of this because it's two pronged. When you go to university, right? There's there's two sets of outcomes in my opinion that I want to focus on the first out. Com it's people who go to university who simply didn't need to. I know a lot of people who went to university simply because it was the next step in education. It's what the school pushed because saying certain percentage of your cohort went to university is great. When it comes to people joining your school, it was you know you're pushing that direction to all just go to uni and do this. Saddled with 10s of thousands of pounds worth of debt, end up in a career that even didn't even need the degree in the 1st place or isn't using the degree you got right. So realistically, completely a waste of money for them. And that is just insane.

20:34 Like we, I, I think we can all agree that that's just mad. Like I think we don't need everyone to go to uni for them to get on in life and do well. And education is, is tricking a lot of people into thinking that's the way you have to go down. I I want to focus on people like us, right, who went in down, down a university route. I did history at university and I did PGCA. So I had four years at university and for me to be qualified as a teacher, that's the route I had to go down. I could have done a three-year degree. Yeah, right. But I, but I did a three-year degree plus plus a PGCA. So I had to do that in order to get onto my PGC and then I had to do PGC in order to be a qualified teacher. What on earth kind of message are we sending people who want to go into jobs like being a doctor, being a lawyer, being a nurse, but potentially because I know this course is about nursing as well, you know, teaching these jobs that are very well respected, huge part of society need these qualifications.

21:27 Yeah, right. But we're saying we're going to saddle you a 9% debt for the rest of your career, though, just because. Yeah, what what on earth are we doing? Especially when that money's underwritten by the government in the 1st place. It's just another tax. It's total insanity. Like, it's such a ridiculous morale killer. Yeah. Like, I, I genuinely can't fathom it. Like, there are so many places in the world where there are different ways around. Maybe you get paid more to be a teacher at the end of it, and that kind of makes up for a little bit of it. Maybe student loans is either 0 or much lower, you know, in terms of the cost here. It just seems like the worst of all the world because OK, we've increased it to 9250, whatever it is nowadays per per year. Oh, can I, can I get, I'm really good at teaching. Can I get I volunteered 8 years before, can I get into it without that?

22:09 I mean, there are some routes, there are some routes, but for a lot of people, the only route is you need to go and pay this much money per year or I don't have 30 grand to spare to be the teacher, which is necessary for the public service, which is like the we need it for our entire country to run. Is there any other way you could, you know, maybe let me do this job for you that you need government? Well, we can borrow it. We can lend you the money. Yeah. Oh, that's brilliant. Yeah. Is it for free? You're at least going to lend me that money. And there's no interest, right? Yeah, 'cause just just 'cause you need teachers. No, no. Horrendous, horrendous interest rates, horrendous interest rates. And we're going to cap it perfectly so that you don't quite pay, quite pay back those interest per month. And after 10 years, guess what? Your loan's gone up. It's actually higher, higher. So you've given us 10 years service.

22:50 You're still in crippling debt. But we need teachers. We really need more people to be teachers. Oh, should we address that issue then? That glaring issue? Yes, we should. Do you know what we can do? Make it easier to be an unqualified teacher. Oh, what a fantastic way of solving this problem. Thank you so much. That's the route we're going down. We go the easy route every single time. Why is it in society we always seem to go for the path of least resistance, which ends up being the least resistance for the people with power or the people with money at the top. And it just makes it worse and worse and worse and worse. It's fine. We don't need to go to the university anymore. You don't need to be a fully quality. You don't have a university degree to teach. That's fine. OK, so the answer was to lower the standards. And I'm still. And I still got about 30, five, £40,000 worth of debt. Crazy.

23:33 What are we doing? Paying for the privilege of serving the country with its public services, like it doesn't make any sense. But when you just say it, I'm sure there's the people out there will be like, well, actually there's this reason, this nuanced reason you've not thought of that we need to OK, maybe, but other countries don't. So there's clearly other ways of doing it. Oh, let's look at literally Scotland, who fund university. It's free. Yeah. Oh, oh, there is a way you can do it. It's a choice. There's there's always a cash stealing because in Scotland the teachers don't get paid the same. Oh no, they get paid more. Oh, sorry, it's. Better of both ones. Yeah, yeah. It's like that just shows people, oh, it's not realistic. It is realistic. You don't like that realism? Yeah, because it comes at a choice and we can have a discussion over that choice. We can have a really nice discussion on a podcast. Instead of me getting angry very quickly at you, we can talk about it because.

24:23 But, but at the end of the day, to simply say it's not realistic, it's wrong. It's realistic for so many different societies around the world. We're choosing to go down this route because we simply as a country, as people governing, don't care enough when they stand there and say how important teachers are, let's clap the NHS workers and the doctors. Aren't they amazing? Any sniff of anyone in those professions trying to make a point as to why they're being screwed over by the system, or need more help, or need more support, or need extra money, or need more funding, Any whiff of that, don't miss. So ungrateful. You're helping people. Don't you care about the people? Don't you care about me? I am the people. I am the people. Help me.

25:03 Why are you making it hard for me to do anything in this life and society we've built? Help me out. Do you care about Yes. Yes. Turn your collapse into a bloody paycheck, then turn it around. Stop it. Treat people the way you want your society to be with villainizing doctors, nurses, teachers, these people who want more. What society do you want to live in? Do you care remotely about the most important things in human life? Education. Healthcare what's more important? Genuinely, I think what's more important is probably gaining infinite wealth through private industry where you don't need a degree. I think that's probably. It And that's why we started maths too. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you know what? We'll probably make more money from private industry in our careers, hey, than we ever would have done from teaching. We will.

25:48 Yeah. And, and this is, let's be real for a second now of everyone listening, that is going to happen. Yeah, we, we've already made money in our private adventures with tutoring. We're going to make money with our private ventures of MAFSU. At least everything we're building is from the groundwork of oh, I really care and I want to help people. Right. Yeah, At least that's what's happening. But at the end of the day, everyone who's a teacher thinks that. And it's so sad that through your job and your career, you end up at the point where you're thinking, well, I've got to leave then because it's not being taken seriously. Like you're so good at what you're doing and you're contributing to society so much. But when the other option becomes more lucrative or better for your family, we're broken. It should have been in a system where it was a no brainer for me and you to teach until we retired.

26:32 Absolutely. I wish that was the system. Yeah, definitely. I wanted to do that. I didn't go into this career thinking I'll do it for a couple years and do something else. I never thought that ever. I just wanted to know. Is it just crazy to think as well, just wrapping this question up, that you are that situation of you did a decade in the job. Yeah. And you came out with your student loan still. Yeah, you've provided our country quality teaching. Well, ish. All right, teaching. You know you, you provided teaching. I did. Teaching for a bit. I did teaching for just under 10 years and you came out. I'm imagining your student loan is exactly the same as what it was. It's exactly. 10 years ago it's like within 5% even it's this, it's no damage. Isn't that mental though? Yeah, like you've come out in debt to the to the government after doing 10 years. A private company that the government have. Contracted to look after it.

27:19 Yeah, it's just, it's just see, it's so backwards it's insane, but there we go. Should we move on to another? Question. Yeah, let's have a look. If you could ban one thing from classroom forever, what would it be? Student loans? Bantam. Well, let's make it a bit more light hearted. I've got one actually straight to this came straight to my head. Desk trays. Oh, what do you mean? I just thought, what's the first thing that comes in my head that annoys me? Bloody desk trays. You know that you can just pull out under Destiny Rattle. Where the kids going to put? Stuff anywhere else? What on the table? Honestly, they're right. When you look in the desk tray, what percentage of the of the of the content in that? It's utterly useless rubbish. It doesn't need to be there. It's always at least 90%. They don't really need to exist. I remember one year my job share, we had a couple of children that were unbelievably annoying with their trays. They'd constantly open them and try to like, stop right in there.

28:05 I believe they're not they. Were just annoying. Yeah, they were like, they would just do it. They did. That tray was a nuisance. It wasn't being used for its purpose of just storing things that we need to the classroom. And I know how I'd never thought of this, but simply that my job show was like, OK, cool, you don't have a training more. Just took it away from that one child. And I was like, oh, that makes complete sense. And then they were focused and fine and they didn't need any of the stuff in their tray. They need the two bits of equipment they needed I gave to them and it was on a pot on that table. Actually, that's discrimination against those children. Actually they needed those trays because actually some children do need that to concentrate. And don't you know that as a teacher, Sorry. Why can't you be sorry? I can't believe you were teaching children, treated someone differently. And actually, absolutely discrimination. Rattling that tray actually help them concentrate. Yeah, and it helped me.

28:47 Didn't help everyone else either. That doesn't matter because actually maybe it did and you just don't know that. Every child should have access to a tray. They can Jingle and jangle whilst you're trying to teach. Them. Yeah, pretty disgusting. Filled. Always. Filled with crumpled up paper. Always. Do you remember? I always remember. At the end of every year we do big tray tidy, right? That's right. So there'd be one kid who for some reason about the whole year seems to have never tidied their tray, even though we have points in the year where I'm like, we're going to tidy it and they'd be tidying up their tray, right. And I always remember this because I put loads of effort into like people of the week certificates. When I started off teaching, right, I on the back of this certificate, I'd write, I'd fill the back of the certificate with like really nice writing and stuff. And over the year, kids would get too afraid. It'd be really good. And it'd be the end of the year and the kid would come up to me with a mangled certificate with all my my handwritten comments. And I said, go.

29:34 Do I have to take this home you? Meant to do that. You're only seven months late and I put all my efforts nice for your parents. Oh, should I keep the other ones as well? Sorry. So funny. Can I tell you my similar experience? The first my first ever class, right? I did the more Christmas cards and I wrote a really nice message and say it's the same thing as what you just said. And I remember the end of the year, one boy in the class, he opened his tray and he took out my Christmas card unopened. He didn't even open it and put it in his tray unopened and he he chugged it in the bin and it broke my heart. I was like, no, I thought these kids would care. And that's when the first strand of hair fell from your head. Yeah, literally. And that was the catalyst. That was also the last time I wrote Christmas cards. The kids, I was like, they do not care about Christmas cards. Just say Merry.

30:18 Christmas, that's all. And then when you get cards from the kids it's lovely, but 95% of them? Dear Mr. Price, from Blank. As if you're lucky. Normally I've had loads of just Mr Stevens and the name. Not even dear, not even Merry Christmas, not even From like, they don't care. They don't care and it's fine. They don't care. We have to pretend they don't. Need them Do it. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Don't do them. It's. Fine, but oh God, that's funny. Anyway, so yeah, trays for me. I don't. If you've got anything else in mind, student loans, rudeness, you're sticking with the abstract stuff. Being being mean now trays talking back to to adults, well, don't do it. That's We've got Ricky Gervais on the pod here. David, Brent rather yeah, honestly, right.

31:00 Let's do another question to. Me. Yeah, let's do this. One's from Ben. Do you think that? They're being mean to your friends. Oh, oh, like cutting, like cutting your friends off. Does that mean? Yeah, cut them off? Cut them off. Yeah, yeah. Not listen to what they say. Sorry from Ben. Do you interrupting someone who's talking? You were breathing in loud. Get rid of that are. You done? Yeah, you're done. I'm done. From Ben for the third time. Do you think there is too much pressure on initial teacher training students with having to do 80% timetable the PGCE if that's what they're doing coursework, marking weekly meetings and still trying trying to find time to relax? Oh, nearly got through. I did nearly got through. Nearly very nearly. Do you think it's too I OK two I I love saying this, don't I? Someone picked me up on this on the chat.

31:41 There were like 3 things to this. Two wants to Dylan, Yeah. Because I think of 74 things at once. So I'm just trying to arrange my brain. Someone also said I've got ADMC someone, yeah, someone said that. And I was like, God, I I don't like it. And people say, oh, you must have this thing that's got a diagnosis. I'm like, I don't know. But the fact of the matter is that I think of 74 things at once, OK, Do I think undiagnosed? That's the fact of the matter. Do I think there is too much pressure on ITT students? In one way, no, there is not too much pressure on them because that is the reality of the job. And usually, usually it balanced out to be roughly what I was doing on my ECT year anyway. When I look back, there are some occasions where yes, it's too much because actually when you're 80% timetable, you're not getting much more time out than when you're in ECT. And you've also got to write an essay, right? And you've also got to do uni work. So that is extra.

32:33 And I do think that's unreasonable. And I think when you're in those situations, your placement school and the people providing your course should just be sensible and say, yeah, let's cut you some slack because this is unreasonable. So yes, absolutely. In general, though, it's preparing you for the job, right? The flip side of this is absolutely it's unreasonable because the job's unreasonable. So it's like, yeah, OK, look, if you think this is unreasonable, news flash, the job is crazy. Yeah, it's like. The job's insane, so it's setting you up for the job. In that respect. It's it. My PGC year was hectic, but it got me up to speed. Jesus. Like, it got me up there and I was ready to actually do the job. Yeah. Yeah. Overall, yeah, of course, you're asked to do too much because teachers are asked to to do too much.

33:17 So it's a good stepping stone. But I don't think overall, I think everything would need to change and just just calm down a bit. You need your own. Time, I agree with exactly that. And on top of that, you've got to remember that when you the further are you are back in your career, like the more everything feels like work anyway because it's all new to you. And that that does decrease a bit. Yeah, that does. So that you've got that extra pressure anyway of it all bring new. And it's just a bit more cognitive load. And on top of that is just a bit of a kick in the shins because you're ultimately paying for that privilege. In most, in most situations, if you're doing a paid PGCE, you are ultimately paying 9 1/2 grand per year or for that one year to actually have all this extra pressure on you. And it does feel a bit like I'm paying to do this. Am I? Am I fool? A good a good point to that as well is because people come back and say things like bursaries exist. Yeah.

34:01 So my PGCAI was primary math specialist. Don't have I told you I qualified as a primary math specialist? First year it came out. Just that, you know, just that, you know, because I'm younger and more attractive than you. So PhD, they gave me that. Yeah, yeah. I can't control it. We get the point. All right. And yeah. So anyway, I was doing that. And as a part of that, if you got at least AB at A level in maths, you qualified for a bursary. So I got a bursary which was just free money. So I didn't get a bursary, right? Yeah. Actually, I got 12 grand, so I got 1000 LB every kind of the month from August to July across my PGC. So I got 1000 LB dropped in tax free. No, no need to pay it back. But people say, well, that's more than the 9 1/2 grand it cost me to do my PGC. Yeah, that's true.

34:45 I could have paid off my 9 1/2 grand, but I'd had to live off 3000 lbs for the year. Yeah, I see. So the bursary. Was great because it was like a dent right in my living costs. My living costs then were still more than £1000 a month, but not by much. Well, what? Would you have done if you didn't get the bursary? That's what I mean, I would have had to work and a lot of people do have to work etcetera. But this is the point I'm making is people look at the bursary and go, well see you are getting paid for it. It's like not not I'm not really because I'm still having to. I'm 3 grand. Yeah, you get paid 3 grand. I'm 3 grand up, right? Let's just say. But I can't just pay off my loan. Yeah, So my loan's worth more than 9 hours because my interest is going up, right? So it's not as simple as that. Because I couldn't pay off my loan then and not get the interest rates because I needed to live for the year.

35:25 So I used it to live for the year. I still had a job where I worked, like, I think at the start I was working like 8 hours a week. Then I quit because it was just too much. I couldn't do it. But I knew my friends who didn't get bursaries, they would work in jobs at the weekend as well. So not only all of this, what we're talking about here, like weekly meetings, 80% doing the coursework, I knew people who also had to work to survive, all whilst not even paying off their student loan, which will be around for the whole career as well. Yeah, yeah. It was like triple, double whammy it was. It was insane. So yeah, bursaries are there, but like, they only scratched the surface really. And bursaries went up to 25 grand. Wow. Like if you're like doing physics at secondary because there was no one doing that, they were like called 25 grand more more akin to what you get paid back then the bursary for some things was more than your starting witch. Yeah, I remember.

36:12 That was a whole scandal, wasn't it? Like we're just, we're just like, it's just illusional. It's like they're not even going to get paid this in this in the next year or the year after. Exactly. They're finished. So the whole point there was like, that's just getting people to come in, take the bursary, pay off your nine grand. You still have a chunk leftover and you can basically get some free money out of it that way, like when the bursaries are big enough. But my my point here is just, yeah, bursaries existed, but they weren't really scratching the and. Fun fact that that your year was the first year the year before when I did the when I did the PGCE, the math specialist course didn't exist. So you're not a math specialist? I'm not a math specialist, I just did a PGCE and and the bursary programme that you were on did not exist because I also I would have qualified for it. I'm not, I didn't actually not go under AB for a maths. Maths was my thing. So I. Didn't have my mum to pay for my student. Well, I paid off my whole student by myself actually, thank you very much.

36:56 I did borrow money from OH. Student loans are so bad. Sat here the whole time paying off his privilege. I mean, I did pay off. I did. I did pay £300 a month for five years to get it paid off on top. So you worked out, didn't you, that in the in the long run, not based on your progression in teaching etcetera, it was slightly more worth it to pay it off? Yeah, basically, yeah. It probably wasn't. Ironically, it might not have been, considering the point in which I quit teaching there is genuine. I should do the maths, but there's probably an argument to say that. Yeah, but yet student loan on any. I know because I yeah, you you're going to continue the student loan would have carried on what we're talking about. Yeah. So it was always. It's always. Your student loan is wiped off when you quit. I forgot the first question isn't real.

37:37 The wiping off for 10 years. I've internalised that now. Yeah, no, it absolutely was better. So basically, yeah, did did a lump sum payment. If this, if this got brought in, right, Yeah, you not only wouldn't have got your bursary at the start, yeah, you would have then paid it off with your own money, higher student loan. And then I would walk along getting a bursary a year later and then it's worked off. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, and potentially you might think. We should do that just for that exact. Situation, do you know? I'd still we all for it. I was in the privileged situation. At the end of the day, it was a massive privilege where we could pay it off and I could just do a aggressive monthly payment to get it done. It might have been silly, but you know, not everyone's in that situation, so. Was you? So it probably was silly. Next question from Luke if you had an infinite number of 10 year olds to race 100 metres against and each time you beat 1 you have to start again and race the next, how many children do you think you could be That's. So funny.

38:28 It's zero for you. Because zero. Yeah. Is it 0 or 1? You know, yeah, I suppose you're already going to be knackered after like 1. Or two an average 10 year old for 100 metres. Do I have infinite energy? No, no, no, no. That's the point in the question. Infinite energy. There's not an all of them. No, because you might get some, you might, you know, law of averages get some crazy fast tenure and eventually. Beats you. So let let me have some parameters on this for you then every child you're racing is is of average speed, right? Yeah. So you are quicker than this child. OK, OK, you are quicker than this child. But obviously, like when you're racing, the your aim is to get for as many children as possible. So you won't be absolutely sprinting because that would be stupid. You'd be trying to just just be ahead of them. Yeah, just be ahead of them, right. How many 10 year olds in a. Row honestly, genuinely realised I've got an explanation for this One honestly one honestly, I am so, so unfit right now. I think I can beat, I can beat 110 year old and I think I'd be so exhausted after and I think I would be sprinting. By the way, and I tell you this because all the way through my career, I regularly know make sure I was still way, way faster than the kids.

39:28 I've taught you 6 a long time and they're about 10 years old and always, always smashing them. The last year though, the last year I raced a bunch of kids in year 6 that I thought, and I'm not kidding you, I was running as fast as I could and I barely beat them and I'm and I am significantly less fit than I was a year ago. So I still think I could beat a 10 year old and I think I'll be knackered after that. The next one will beat. Me. I guess the question turns in for you. How far can you? Run now. Can I run 80 metres? Literally? Probably like 150 metres. I can't do 2. I can't do 2 sprints. There's no way, No way. I'll keep. I'll beat one kid 2 if I'm lucky. What about you? I OK, I think it's low. I do think it's low. Me too mate, I also think yeah.

40:12 I also think it's low for you. Carry on. Why do you? Look at that. I'm looking at you. Nothing but you. No part of you. Just you. Just. Because I'm a wide guy doesn't mean I can't be fast. I've seen those NFL players do the Sprint. Yeah, to be fair, you still play football a lot, so. 5 or 6. Five. That's big. Yeah, 5 or 6 is. It is it like are we talking back? You get no break in between these races because that is you're basically saying I can, I can Sprint 600. Metres, is what you're saying? Yeah, No, OK, if, if it's if it's literally backed about. You get to the end, you turn and you Sprint again. Yeah, two or three. Yeah. OK. All right. So let's go. Let's let's change it. So that's that. That's fair enough because that's what I was thinking.

40:53 But if you get a few minutes to rest. Yeah. But even like, well, that depends because it depends on the time you get to rest then, doesn't it? 2 minutes. People listen to this. They really listen to this for this. Kind of we go down the list. Complete I'm I'm thinking more seriously about this than student loans. Luke is thinking, Oh, shouldn't probably ask. I wish I didn't ask this freaking question honestly. God, it's supposed to be funny. I reckon it yeah, if if you if you do a Sprint and you're like, OK, nice one, beat your kid, piss off. OK, honey, go to this. See you later, kid. Get out of here. Every kid you beat gets expelled. Sorry, but he's really really fast. Don't care, I'm going to be 1.

41:34 Just need one. Just need one. Get out of here, kid. By mile. Joking, obviously, if anyone gets a knife. I'm not. Carry on. I'm not a teacher. I'm not a teacher anymore. What are you going to do? I don't care. Carry on. Book a maxi demo now down below. Yeah. You say I'm not a teacher reminder we need to live somehow so be pretty good it's. So funny. OK, you get like a one minute turn around where you can, you can catch your breath back because everyone knows you go for a run, you catch your breath back, you still done in, but you catch your breath back in your restart. I reckon, I reckon 4I reckon I could do 4 and I reckon it'd be tough.

42:15 Yeah, yeah. Genuinely that that does change things. So my my new answer, I'm sticking with one there. You go, what can I, can I, can I stop in between? Yeah. Can I get like a massage and some recovery? Yeah, yeah. 11 still 1 maybe? Zero because I can't physically. I can't be. The first physically cover 200 metres, so this question is flawed. If I don't win, can I still get a massage? That's all I want to know. Just anyway. Right. Crazy. Should we do? It's a long episode. Should we do one more? Because I thought we've not answered many questions. Yeah, probably. Let's think one more. Here we go. Right. I hope they're enjoying it. Yeah, exactly. To this point, slightly longer. Yeah, should we do a serious one or a funny 1? You choose. Oh, I don't know. There's pressure now let us know. Shout at the screen even though this is a recorder the week before you listen to it. OK, OK, OK.

43:00 Which sentence have you said out loud in the classroom out of context would end your career instantly. I've I've thought of 1 immediately. OK, I've got nothing right here. Go on. This is this is genuinely true and I've got teaching assistants are in the room as well and I I couldn't I had to turn around and stop. I said to a child once in show and tell. I said OK, come up to the front and show up on your Beaver. That's so funny. Come up to the front and shower on your Beaver. God I bet the TA laughed their head off. Yeah, one of those moments, 100%. Because they're in the room, obviously a show and tell. A stuffed Beaver they got from their holiday. Yeah, yeah. And they've been asking me all day. Is that right? Come and shower on your Beaver. That's so funny, unbelievable out of context like that. That's it.

43:44 Isn't it even with context? Yeah, maybe it's still a still. Funny baby should have said it like that, yeah. That's so funny. Done in. There's another one. I've said this before, I don't even know if this counts. I think this is just bad. I was in. I was in school because you had to get some daisies. Cough kid. Yeah, I told. The kid, he was a Oh, Dylan. I don't know if context saves you in that one. Actually, I've said this story before. We were doing Snakes and Ladders, and I lost. And this was before on PGC. I've seen some days in school to show that, show that I was serious in a teacher and they must have wanted me out of the classroom because I was obviously useless and this kid out of the classroom as well.

44:25 So we want to play Snakes and Ladders. Yeah. And I rolled the dice at the end and I lost and I said Oh no, like genuinely, because I was just like a 19 year old who just said that kind of thing. And he's like, what did you say? I thought I'd just tried to cover it up. So again, context. Probably doesn't save it. Yeah, that one's, that one's just that's just bad. That should have ended your career. Probably probably went on went on to to Wild Things after that. Wild, wild things. I genuinely can't think of any that's really annoying me. Oh, really? Well, you've never said anything like that. I'm sure I have, but you know, what a surprise. I can't think on the spot. Well, I have 3 for everyone. Yeah, there you go. If you think of one, we. We can maybe start another episode with it. Yeah, but you won't, because you'll forget this conversation even. Happened in 5 seconds. Even happened. Oh dear. Turns out that's why you left teaching and you just blocked it from your mind.

45:05 Do you know what do you know the real answer is? I've never said anything that would could end my career because everything is completely PC and I think if they think it through all the time. Yeah. Should we? Should we end with like a relatively serious question and try and answer it? Quickly. Yeah, Go on, go on. OK. So this is the last question. Now, as primary school teachers, what is your take on the decline of literacy? I'm a secondary school teacher and some of our children are arriving in Year 7 with reading ages of four or five years old. It's hard to understand how this happens. Obviously it links to the absence crisis, but some of these children have very few behavioural issues and are very rarely absent. Literacy is more of an issue in my current school than others I've worked in, and no one I've asked can give me a valid reason why these kids can't read when they arrive.

45:47 They just pass on the blame. Brain rot. Brain rot has ruined kids. Social media has ruined kids. They don't want to read anymore. The national data is extremely clear. Kids aren't reading books they don't want to read. It's nothing to do with what you know. It's nothing to do with teachers at school. Teaching hasn't really changed that much. Kids don't want to read anymore because they're spending seven hours a day looking at Brain Rot YouTube short algorithm videos. Yeah, that's it. And do you know what I'll add to that? It's also because their parents are doing that. Let's let like there'll be lots of people listening going on my kid. You know, these kids don't kids aren't even, I don't even give my kid an iPad, OK? But I, I can guarantee you as an adult, just look at adults like let's, let's, let's just for a second not try and pussyfoot around this for a minute and call out parents.

46:30 Parents aren't doing enough. Not every. I'm a parent and I always read good for you. I'm not talking about you in general. Very, very, very clearly the amount of input parents are putting into their children and raising them is decreasing. Very clearly the amount an adult is reading with their child is decreasing. And I'm seeing very weird stuff online at the minute of some parents who'll do a reel and say things like I am a parent, I am not an unpaid teacher, sorry. News flash, yes you are. Of course you are. What do you think being a parent is? Of course part of it is teaching crazy. So much of what a child actually learns and you can map their progression throughout their whole school life comes before they step foot in a school. As a parent, you have the ultimate responsibility to do as much as you can for your children. That is a wild video.

47:20 You are literally their teacher. Yeah, you are literally their unpaid teacher. That is what you. Are you are? What do you think that is your job? To teach them the way of the world. And that does happen to include some academic stuff, like reading a book. It does. And yes, we have paid teachers who also do stuff like that and that, like, and they also don't do some of the stuff that you do. And that's often a big argument that we have on this podcast, that debate. Should teachers be teaching kids how to use a knife and fork? I don't know. Maybe the home teacher should be doing that. You know, the parents. Yeah. It's mental. It's absolutely mental. I'm not going to teach my kid right and wrong. I'm not an unpaid police officer. Yes, you are. You are everything to that child and it's just become. I don't know about you, Halen, but since we've had our kids, it's crystallised in me so much more. And we're gonna do a whole episode on this this week about what parents should be doing at home with their children. Because if I think now beforehand, before I had Rory, right, I think about this, I'm like, it's quite nuanced, actually.

48:16 Yeah, sometimes there isn't time for this at home. Yeah, I get it, guys. Or whatever. Yeah. I can't offend anyone. Now I've had Rory. I look at it and I go cool. There's a very clear hierarchy of things that are important to him and there's certain things that won't be budged off the top. Rory will read every day. There's no question about it. He'll have a book read to him every day. There's never a point in my life where I won't have 5 minutes to read a book with him. No, there's no excuse. I'll tell you what, that is the same for everyone and people. There's always excuses. There's always some. People's lives are considerably harder, I get it. But it's 5 minutes with your kid. You. Know how I know that you'll find it? When I was growing up and when you were growing up, we lived in single parent households and one worked 2 jobs. I did very well academically because it wasn't a question.

48:59 That was the first thing on the list. You've got to do your your work. You've got to read your book, you've got to do your counting, you've got to do your numbers, you've got to ask your questions. It's a bar we have to have and I'm sorry we can't budget from it. And when school teachers come to us and a lot of them do and they say things like this or what can I do, What are we doing wrong? Nothing. Sometimes you are not the problem and it's that guilt that you have as a teacher that you think I've got to make sure this child can do that. Guys, there's only so much you can do. If they're not going to get that support from home and haven't had those foundations built from an early age, it's going to be triggered. Are all kids going to have the same outcomes if they have the same input from parents? No. Am I talking about every single child in the country right now?

49:41 No. Oh, if you're listening to what I'm saying and saying, well, I can't get my child to sit down, it's a nightmare. I understand it's not easy and it's not the same for everyone, but can we just agree that very clearly if we give children these foundational learning points before they even get to school, yes, from you, the unpaid teacher, otherwise known as a parent, the outcomes in general on average will be much better. I agree it's a team effort and just finishing this question off because you know, we're going to have a whole good discussion about this then it's gone off one-on-one there. So if you were to go to my next episode, well, Dylan has done half of it now, but no, you should go check it out. Going to talk a lot more in depth about this. But going back to this person, what we shouldn't do is pass the blame on to the previous school. That's the worst thing you can do. Like there's what are the chances that suddenly all of a sudden in society, every single primary school around the country is now absolutely terrible at teaching reading and all the secondaries was going.

50:30 But yeah, I can't believe these primary school teachers. I don't think that's the issue. It is. It is a much bigger systemic issue revolved around parenting, revolved around absolute brain rot. The kids are being exposed to the ease of access to all this stuff. We've talked about it all and we'll talk about it all a lot more, but that's my answer. Come and join us on Wednesday. Let's wrap that up there, Hayden. 3 * 4 is 4 + 4 + 4. That's a fact. Yeah, See you next. Time. And if you don't believe us, well, book a mass demo and we can again.