Ep 175: Why Behaviour Is Getting Worse & How We Can Fix It

0:00 Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Teach the Repeats. My name is Dylan. And my name is Hayden and. Whether you are on the way to work or simply listening whilst you're on a walk, on a little run, maybe you're at the gym, maybe just at home chilling, listening to this podcast, we are back. We are ready to chat. All things behaviour today, but you had something you want. To say, there's a quick thing I wanted to say and I thought you'd be interested in this because it kind of indicates you a little. Bit I'm used to be vindicating. Boost your ego so therefore you don't know what. Let me cock my ear, boost my ego please. Like such an idiot. You're also still coining the blanket from from the last episode that we just recorded. Because from days before, there's still no radio slash. Literally minutes to turn around. And it's colder, yeah.

0:41 Anyway, so I don't know if you saw recently, but the DfE have come out and said, and this very much backs up what we said Bridget Phillipson was talking about when we went to Bet right, talking about AI tools. Everything's about AI at the moment. And they're saying that AI tools and AI tutors in in in particular could level the playing field by providing up to 450,000 disadvantaged pupils access by the end of 2027. I don't know if you saw that article, but I thought it was very interesting because two weeks ago we had a discussion and we very much argued about AI replacing teachers and how everything at BET was very much like AI is so good. Yeah. And even Bridget Phillipson and, and the government in general, like, yeah, AI is so good, why replace you teachers? Are you teachers are irreplaceable.

1:23 However, however, we are investing money in AI tutors, which by definition, by definition is doing the role of a teacher. Oh yeah, or a tutor even like, which often is a. Teacher of course. Exactly right and because they are realistically talking about in school use as well. So I don't know, I just thought it was interesting. Schools week had a little article on it and basically there was just a bunch of experts in this in various different roles across education saying it's all right idea. But like AI is still in its infancy when it when it comes to like something as complex as actually teaching a child like new concepts and things and and being being the role of a teacher. So I just thought I would bring it up because I was sat here saying there's no way in 100 years we're going to see of.

2:03 Course, we will. Is anyone is shocked by this. What are you talking about? I'm not even. Again, I'm gonna say right now I'm not even going on the good or bad side. I'm not even. But. But what I'm saying is that it is obviously a fact that this will happen. Yeah. We can see already that there is an appetite for people in charge to be putting this in front of our children and it happening right even before we're ready to do it. So when we had the conversation previously, which was me saying, yeah, but this will happen because it will come down to basically the nerve of the humans in large of making these decisions. It will come down to their nerve. When it looks like this is both cheaper and better, yeah, of course they're going to do it. That was my point. Of course it will happen. It's even happening now when it's not better. It's not better now than a teacher most of the time, right? But it is cheaper and it is going to give people a leg up and it's going to be provided as an additional right. So all of these, all of that context is really important because I'm absolutely not saying that what they are suggesting here is replacing teachers right now. OK, so I'm not saying that before anyone says they're not replacing teachers now, I know they're not. But is this not one of the clearest indications ever of a path you can see happening where where what I said is going to happen?

3:14 Like I couldn't be more sure what I said is going to happen and it and it's not because of any other reason. And then it just, it is just the logical way of things going. Like I just, I cannot say it will. It will simply come down to someone choosing a more expensive option of actual humans doing it and training them up and getting to the point of doing it. If if the will is there to keep that happening, then fine, but it obviously won't be. We live in a capitalistic society where we try and drain every single cent out of every single person. Of course, this will end up being the norm. I thought I just yeah, basically I thought it was interesting because it very much is the beginning of that path. It really isn't it. That's the logical conclusion. This would if I was to design the pathway to AI replacing teachers, this is probably where I start little interventiony things, helping out, finding a little niche problem that it can it can help solve.

4:01 It's OK, actually teachers don't have maybe enough a breadth of understanding and knowledge to help these particular group of children, whereas this AI can be trained in everything and and actually we can help solve this problem better. Everyone goes, OK, we can't really argue with that. What's your like without catastrophizing and exaggerating? Just just genuinely, you know, grounded opinion on this. What what do you actually think of the idea of using a bit of AI to help some kids in one to one tutoring in schools? Do you think there is like actually some good from? This 100%, yeah, yeah, completely. It's it's a good tool to use, right? Yeah. And again, in my version of events where I'm like, you know, it could be labelled as catastrophizing or going over the top saying everything's awful. I very clearly did state I'm not saying it's good or bad because in my definition is that eventually it will be better.

4:46 I also that's a very unpopular opinion as well. I'm kind of pissing off both people in, in this regard because what I'm saying is like, you know, people who really want AI to come in and, and be a force for good. I'm saying just slow down. It's not necessarily always going to be the best thing in the world. And actually just especially not right this second. It's not quite there yet. But also people who are saying like, teachers should never, ever, ever be replaced. We shouldn't use any AI at all. Like, honestly, what's wrong with you? Of course we should. Of course there will be things that AI will be better than a human app. And there are some people who don't hear that ever. They're like, no, a human is always better because of these reasons. At some point that won't be true. I'm sorry, it won't be true. At some point. We don't want to go back into everything we spoke about last time going listen to the episode all about AI and education.

5:29 At some point that won't be true. Right now, there are some things that AI is better at than humans and there are lots of things that humans are better at than AI. And I would not say just let it loose in front of the kids right now and it'll be fantastic in all respects. Has to be controlled, has to be alongside humans, has to be alongside teachers and experts, absolutely. But there is obvious see a role for this where it can hit targeted intervention to children who need a boost more than other children. Yes, of course it can be a good thing the obviously. And announcements like this are only going to spur it on more. Do you know what I mean? It's just going to get people and Ed tech owners and just people that are interested in this field obviously are going to get excited by like even myself, right? Seeing that announcement and then reading articles around it may.

6:13 But my genuine, genuine reaction was, OK, so this is clearly happening. I can even, I have nothing to do with it and just watch it and just hope that it works. Or if I had the opportunity, would I, would I want to get involved and help curate it? Absolutely. And I imagine a lot of teachers are thinking, well, if you're going to do it, let's have some experts in like at least curating it so we can get it as optimised as possible as quickly as possible. We're not wasting people's time. So like, so it's funny how like, he was straight away, my mind was turning. So what was that? Well, OK, I just accept it's going to happen. So can I get involved? I've noticed a shift in AI in general as well. Like I don't think it necessarily means people are ignoring the the cons to AI, right? But there's definitely been a shift more recently as to it being more normalised.

6:53 And again, I said that as well, like I said this months ago, where AI will be ingrained in everything we do. Like when you do a Google search, AI pops up. There'll be some jokes at the start. Some people are not being annoyed about it, but eventually that'll be completely normal and we have to learn how and how to live with that and it's going to be a point of view. I, I used the example of Tesco with the self checkouts at the start. Those people are very annoyed about it. So we need to keep the jobs for these people. It's not right. Completely normal. Now no one bats an eyelid at the being self checkouts. That's absolutely normal. But I did a post and I did different AI versions of myself photo generation. And if I did that post six months ago, there would be comments from people complaining about the fact it's AI, right? Not one comment this time complaining about the fact it was AI because it's becoming more normal. You can, we can sit and say why that's good or bad all we want and that's a separate discussion. But the fact I'm trying to say here is it's becoming more normalised and you saw it in a group. Literally I was, yeah.

7:44 This whole conversation was based around the fact that on a in a Facebook group, I saw someone put something very blunt and simple. Like what? Your favourite AI tools to use in school and I was like here we go a year ago juicy. I know because a year ago that these these posts were existing as well and people were just like you just half the comments were slating the user and I would never do that with kids. It's it's unsafe or immoral or the environmental impact over the comments thinking here we go see some juicy opinions. Literally every single one was just sharing the recommendations of what they do. I was like, oh, OK, this is there's clearly a shift here in in culture and what we accept. And does that mean automatically all the things we said before about AI are now false that the ban? No, of course not. But when you know it, I'm sorry it is happening.

8:24 So if if you really vehemently against it, all power to you. But it's it's going to be. Involved and also like it is just how it works. Some of the things you're vehemently against will just change and not be a thing anymore. That is also true. Like sometimes complaints are good because they will change those things and maybe those things aren't real anymore. Some of the big ones I'm sure are. But anyway, it's interesting. My last question on that and then we'll move on is do you think AI will ever be as good as you predicting the future or is it just an ego thing? It'll be better. Yeah, it'll be better. Oh, really? Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. AAI will reach super intelligence and it'll just be better. Like, that's just what I think. What happened? Yeah, but until it's reached super intelligence, it won't be as good as you. No, because obviously, Yeah, you're like the run below. Down.

9:07 It's like it's it's like normal person, intelligent person. Yeah. Artificial intelligence. Yeah. Denim price. Super intelligence. Yeah. That's kind of. I had that in my head, so I'm glad you clarified that because that is what I was Sorry. Hayden, you're at the floor. Yeah, no idea. I was not sorry. I missed wasn't on that list. I started it. Yeah, I was pre average person. Pre average person, Yeah, yeah, that's fair enough. That's understandable. I appreciate that. Anyway, so the main point of this episode really is to talk about behaviour 'cause I feel like it's just a juicy topic. I see it coming up a lot online in articles, a lot in Group chats and also a lot of education influences. I know you hate that term but people that make videos and content like. Segway. Good Segway, by the way. Oh yeah, just just, it's a new way of doing a Segway, I suppose. Just start talking about the next thing with no link at all.

9:47 Well, yeah, why would? Why would you make a link between those two things? It's funny. I found it funny. Trying to throw me off. I'm the podcast host. I'm the podcast host and I can segue. I think what we'll find today with you leading the podcast is that comparing a podcast is actually a skill that goes under the radar. So let's see how well you do. Yeah, definitely. Well, let's. Just have a conversation show. That's what a podcast is, Dylan actually. Anyways, yeah, I just keep seeing it come uploads basically. People saying Mr P in particular, to be fair to him, said a lot. I think that workload at the moment is the number one reason teachers will quit. But I do think bad behaviour and poor people behaviour in schools will overtake that and become the number one reason that teachers are quit. And I always find that fact really interesting, that opinion really interesting. And again, looking on Schools Week, there was a study that showed that up to 76% of teachers reported misbehaviour interrupted their lessons in at least some classes in May 2023, which was up from 64% literally a year before. So there's clearly a rise in teachers also thinking behaviours getting worse in in schools. So I thought, let's talk about that. Is behaviour getting worse?

10:51 There's loads of things we can we can talk about here. We can start from, I think it's probably good to just compare what the general opinion is of how kids behave in school now to how kids behaved in school in the past, or at least how we think kids behaved in the school in the past. Because I know if I went to someone older in my family and I started having this conversation, you know exactly what I'd say as well. It's going to be Oh well, back in my day, kids bloody new out of behaviour didn't have any of this nonsense. All that, if you didn't do as you always got, came around the end, not came around the end. I know. I know exactly what family member. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That is like, it's so easy sometimes to look back. And, you know, we do it a lot. You look back and you think, oh, it was just so much better back then. It's like, OK.

11:33 Right. Listen, rewind. If teachers still now could whip a child around the ear and throw a bored rubber brick at their head when they're misbehaving. Right. Do you think there might be fewer disruptions in class? Yeah, probably. But do you know what? I think we all accept that was a good move. I think it. We have to just note the difference between the 70s and now, right? In the 70s, a teacher would light up a cigarette at the front of the classroom. It was a completely different one. Much better it was. So I want to have a pint of beer at lunchtime, come back and light up for my afternoon lesson while the kids do a bit of art, all right? It's all I want in life, The reason I quit. I was gutted when I. Have a bloody lovely IPA at the end of the day. And I thought what?

12:15 I can't do that anymore. But here's here's the overall point I'm making here. It's kind of unhelpful to do that. And I think usually it just people have their own opinion already and then use that to express it. So they'll already think kids these days are up to no good and they'll just go back in my day, we had respect for it and that's what happened. And now look at them now. It's not actually based on any kind of critical thinking whatsoever. So I think it's, I do think it's important that what is more interesting to me is even just looking at it in the scale of like the last 10 years. Yeah, that's more interesting to me because there's not such an obvious difference. Sure, in terms of like culture and time period. What's happened in what's happening in five years?

12:55 You can look at the COVID pandemics, a big thing that accelerated BITS. But like I find that more useful in figuring out why. If it feels like people who do them, they're macro kind of comparisons and they're just making the point like kids these days are useless. Very often they're not actually trying to have a conversation because they'll be, they're just moaning or saying how much better they are. Yeah, exactly that. So I guess so the overall the big question here is like this is what I feel like people, are you ever saying yes or no to? Do you think that children have just become worse at being able to behave? Yeah. Do you like just do you think that's true? Do you think children are just worse at behaving now? It's. Not just, but I do think so. Yeah. Do you know what I mean that so, so that so there has been a decline there.

13:35 Do you do you think that is simply because I'm just trying to squash the conversations that I'd have with these these people I'm imagining in my head right now? Do you think that's simply because kids are just born worse now? They don't have to behave because I feel like that is what people are trying to say. Yeah. Or something's going wrong. Yeah. Kids, I was not sure this in my day. Yeah, probably did. I didn't have the vaccination. Oh my God, don't. Honestly don't. But people say that and I thought, I know it sounds dumb to talk about it on this podcast, but like we have to just address it because it's clearly not that. So that which allows us to open up a real conversation, which is OK, What? What is it then? What are the factors? Because statistically, behaviour is worse. Yeah, yeah, 100% behaviour is worse. It's a fact. So this is what I mean when you say behaviour is worse and then someone asks, so are kids worse behaved than before? It's like, well, obviously like like yes, of course. What the are you on about?

14:26 Like clear, I'm sorry I'm giving you some market, but what? Like what do you mean? Of course they are worse, but it's like people are so scared to say that. Yeah, it kind of annoys me the other way. Do you know, I've just said how it annoys me people in the 80s saying back in mind the kids these days are useless. That annoys me. Do you also annoys me. Oh, don't say anything about them though. Kids can't do anything wrong. If they do something wrong, it's always just because of an external force and it's just on them and it's just a way of communicating and actually we should be really understanding. I've always done off. No, it's not Also, no, I'm giving me edits. Sorry, sorry. I'm really sorry, but but also that I'm like, that's not helpful sometimes as well. Yeah, look, I'll give you an example really quickly just to make my point. We, I did a a reel the other day and often we'll do like a meme, like it's just like someone talking and it's like when you've run out of glue sticks, it's someone crying. Yeah, it's a meme, Yeah.

15:13 So here's. Here's 1 meme I did, and I'll get you to guess what someone might have said. OK, so the meme was when you've explained something five times, done a structured example on the board, done some examples together in their books and given them a worksheet with some scaffolding. And then a child still says, oh, I don't know what I'm doing. And the person that in the meme is going, oh, I just, I just, I just don't know, like what what am I supposed to do? Right? That was the meme and it was sorry. The caption was when a child decides not to listen. OK, OK, I know exactly what it's going to be. We'll sum it along the lines of not all children get to decide whether they're listening or not. There's maybe there's some Sen going on and you've not factored it in. You're such a horrible teacher that doesn't consider these children that don't fall in the normal range of behaviours. Or normal.

16:00 Oh, don't say that. Yeah, so the the comment was really smarmy and was like, considering I saw a real recently about ADHD and how you're soaked in understanding about it, it makes me really think this is very judge mental to put this out there. And I was I replied going ha ha, yeah, nearly as judgmental as assuming this is about a child of ADHD, which having watched my content before, it clearly isn't like you're in a position more than anyone to understand that I'm not talking about a kid with ADHD. Stop. No, I'm sorry. That is so funny because like, clearly. Yeah, click. Click you. I was like, oh, you've you've watched the video that proves it's clearly not about it and you still think that you what are you? And I also said the kid who decides to not listen, I don't think children of ADHD are deciding anything. So it's obviously not about kid of ADHD. But you're suggesting it's impossible for a child to ever decide not to listen.

16:55 And that's, that's the point I'm making. That's what I'm not. Exactly. When someone says no, no, no, it's never the child's fault. There's always an underlying reason behind it. Yeah. No, there isn't. Yeah, sometimes kids are just being really annoying and badly behaved and they need consequences. Yeah, it's so funny that even in that made-up example, that's a made-up child that we're all imagining in this real to relate to, they still excuse that it's made-up child that we've told you is to say we've told you in the words this made-up child has decided to behave this way. So you by definition, they don't have this. You've just given them ADHD. It's made-up. What are you talking about? It's a middle-aged man saying this. I find it really judgmental that you think a 48 year old man is in a year three class. I don't.

17:37 I don't think that it's a meme. You just get in the beats. I'm sorry for the beats guys. And it's just ridiculous. I'll stop. I'll stop the spray now. But I feel really strongly about it because, you know, it's really easy on one side. Like it. Do you know what I'd say? It's like shooting fish in a barrel to moan about the old people who say back in Mordo. Everyone thinks that. But I do think there's a group of people still who listen to what I just said and be like, Oh no, that's really mean. You can't say that. Well, I can, and it's nonsense. There are some kids that are choosing to behave badly because it's easier to. Because they don't want to do the work. I was a kid sometimes I was going to say, do you know how I know that? It's because I was that kid so often. I constantly, constantly chose whether I was going to be nice to someone because I fancied it or whether I was going to be. And you had to learn a little shit genuinely. And I was a little shit to plenty of people. And do I regret it?

18:27 Yeah. Because now I know you're older, but would you, would it have been worse if a teacher didn't call you out on it? Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. There must be a reason you're saying this kind of stuff. It would be much worse if a kid, much worse if A and a teacher just said, oh, he must have ADHD and now let's excuse him. Everything firstly to give me a diagnosis I don't have and then also give me free rein to do whatever I want with no consequences. That would have been the worst possible thing. What did work was I got roped into the head teachers office and absolutely bollocked. And then my mum came in and told me off and then I didn't do it again and I was like, OK, yeah, I'm pushing the boundaries a bit too much here. I can see my errors of my ways here. I'm apologise 100%. That was that was good for me in that moment. And. And would it be good for every kid in that exact situation? No. That's the beauty of nuance. Yeah. Yeah. And we're always thinking of, you know, if we're given an anecdote, it's it's a specific person. If we're talking generally, it doesn't include everyone. Like you just have to as a reasonable person who thinks and talks and listens to conversation, you just have to have that baseline of understanding. I.

19:21 Feel like yeah, 100% and not just assume the worst of someone. Yeah, like do does that person think that I put a reel out there taking the Mick out of Children of ADHD? After championing as well do. You think that that's what I was doing, like, or could it possibly be the other thing, which is actually more makes way more sense. People can't wait to be offended. And it's like, oh, do you know what? You know when I say behaviour's got worse, don't cower. And oh, it's because. And we're going to talk now about why. Yeah, right. Because we can just tangibly see it. And I'm going to just start with that. I know, sorry this is your episode, but I'm going to just take over. It is your episode. But in that example, you just said about how it worked for you because you got hauled into the headteach's office and they called you mum, you came in, you got a Rollic, and you got consequences, right?

20:05 Yeah. There's so much to unpack there, which I think all contributes to why behaviour is getting worse. Because I'm just going to summarise them now, maybe we can dive into as much as you want #1A clear behaviour policy that's backed up by the people in charge at the school and it's consistent. That is vital. But you need that. You need your teachers to be backed up by your SLTA 100%. And when something goes wrong, SLT need to back the teachers up and go with the teachers. Will that sometimes work out badly? Sometimes, yeah, sometimes, absolutely. But the majority of time it's going to work out well. So, you know, your, your leadership team and your school staff all be on the same page. Clear behaviour policy. Second thing called your mum and your mum was on board your parents working with the school as well in tandem. That is really vital. Third thing, clear consequences.

20:48 No pussyfooting around, not worried about hurting feelings. You did something wrong as a consequence for you and you. That's it right now, get over it. It's not fair. Life's not fair. And actually, in this situation, you did something, so there's a consequence. Yeah, it's extremely fair. It's extremely fair. This is just this. So all those three things come into it and I, and I would say like if I look at why behaviour is getting worse, I think I do genuinely think all three of them are weaker now than they were before. Yeah, rather than it just being, I can't whack you with a, with a board rubber anymore. Put a dance cap on your head. 100%, yeah. The types of consequences changing, like being physically smacked or actual just other consequences, that was a good change. There's still consequences, right? And they can be rigid, the consequences. What would you say of those things you mentioned is the biggest one in terms of what what? What is your gut feeling?

21:32 This doesn't need to be backed up by status. This is just your opinion now. So like just to preface that because anyone gets annoyed, what would you say your gut feeling is the one that is most causing children to think, oh I can just get away with this bad behaviour now more than ever before? But what I will say before I answer this question is I do think all three are intertwined away more than I made it seem. Sure. Like, you know, what's the point in having consistent link between SRT and teachers if consequences isn't part of that? I agree. And then calling home isn't part of the consequences. So one thing brings the chain. Yeah, completely. So I think they're all vital. But if I was to look at where I think it would break down, like I, I literally mean it's really hard for me to pick. Actually, I had an idea and then I thought about another reason.

22:12 So, you know, so here's what I'm thinking. So the reason why they're all important, let's just break it down then. Let's just start with the whole SLT and teacher link. Because in my opinion, if that's not strong, clear and consistent, it immediately falls apart. It's almost like it's the first rung. That was my initial thought and I was like, well, you know, unless this teacher knows the SRT will back them up, what's the point in carrying on? But then I thought to myself, well, no, it's because they know the consequences as well. So consequences being clear and consistent actually probably comes before any of that. The child needs to understand what's right and wrong and what will happen if they do the wrong thing and why and, and it will happen. And that will only happen if SRT and teachers are backed up by strong links to each other, where they have each other's back and trust each other.

22:56 These things need to be implemented in a school for anything to work. It doesn't matter how strong you bond to our parents. If a child comes into school and knows there are no consequences and teachers are infighting, doesn't matter how strongly I my mum was really hot on me. Really. And your mum was hot on you. You're saying you still went to school and we're annoying you still went to school and be like push the boundaries. Kids will always push the boundaries. So I think that's really, really important. You have to have a leadership and staff team on the same page, really clear coherent message that back each other up with clear consequences that are always follow. True. I think back to when I was in geography. I had a teacher who was an absolutely lovely bloke in geography but his warning system was just made-up and kids would walk all over him.

23:39 And I remember being in the classroom thinking he, you know, he was South African and say look, you do one more, you get your name on the board like that. And if you get your name on the board three times then I'd have to put a tick next to your name. And it was just going on and on and on and on and on and on. And it was like I could see as a 12 year old that the person over there ruined the lesson because he was trying to be funny to his mate, not because he had any additional needs. Because he was trying to be funny and he knew he could get away with it. The ticks and the he got 15 warnings before even the teacher went to get someone else. But he knew he could push it. He really didn't care. There was no clear consistent boundaries. No one was backing up that teacher. To be fair to the teacher as well, that has to come first. And if you've if you haven't got that, the kids will run wild. Doesn't matter how much the the parents are giving, the kids will find it and.

24:22 Kids push boundaries all the time. Yeah. So like, you know, I'd say those two together, but I don't want to diminish the role of the parent because I think that's vital. Yeah, for sure. Obviously, we talked about parents, you know, a lot last week. Go back and listen to the last week's episode if you want to hear our thoughts on just parenting and how that is. What would you? What would you? Teach that though, like I think I. Agree. Everything you said I agree with, but I still have this thing in my head and I think a lot of people share this thought and maybe I've just got this because I hear so many people say it. Where I do feel like outside culture outside of the school, which is mostly realistically going to be parents, right, and parents, people in parenting roles. The culture outside of school, I feel like has way too much power over the school that can just completely annihilate all of these rules and things we have in place.

25:04 Do you think that do you think? The culture outside of the school and the parents views and whether we're on board or not, are you saying basically, yeah, that directly affects the cohesion of the school and the SLT and the teachers? Yeah. So even though you agree that's the most important thing, again, actually we're looking at the links between them. It's the parents that are causing that division. Yeah. And like you said, because it is a triangle. Genuinely, it is the perfect thing where I'm like 1 take out any one of those things that does genuinely break. But I think I think one of those things that has maybe a bit too much impact. What do you mean? Okay, So what I mean is I genuinely think and hopefully people listening can either agree or not that that's tend to do one of those tend to do one of them. I was gonna say agree and I thought I better be PC but say not for some reason. Hopefully you agree.

25:46 It's all right, We've gone. Past PC in this episode, right? You're swearing. But I think there are a lot of teachers out there and I've definitely been this person in my career at points who are afraid to make the objectively right decision in terms of how the consequences for a child, but literally based on the external factors outside of the school and how I know they'll react. Most of the time that's parents. I don't think news outlets can help. I don't think media helps in general. I feel like the demonization of teachers is a deep rooted thing in our society in terms of we just, it makes we make teachers feel like they're just bottom rung and actually, no, you should be walked all over. And my kids said this so obviously. That's what happened, yeah, exactly right. And because. Because it's this weird like problem where parents obviously, and I don't want anyone to not think this, obviously have the final say over their own child in terms of their safety and what's happened.

26:35 Like they know their child better. But there is like some nuance in terms of I don't want to take away the idea that a parent can can raise a safeguarding issue, But all the school said that's fine. So no, you should. Parents should definitely have that power to be able to do that and override the school in every capacity because it's their child. But there are situations where that gets abused now where it's like teachers are afraid to do the right thing because that parent's particularly loud and bossy and they don't want to say anything because that parent will literally cause A cause such a ruckus that they could lose their job. Can I give an example then? So what you're like, I can imagine being in a situation where I'm like, do you know what I actually know? You leave the classroom right now, go and sit in the head teachers office and finish your work there because you're distracting the class. Get out. Kid gets upset. No. You can get upset all you want.

27:15 I've asked you to stop. You didn't get out right now. That's the school consequence. The school. Consequence this is. Clearly what happens, you leave this room and do your work because the school have decided that the 32 children in this classroom are more important than the one when you're clearly just deciding to do something like this. No, there's not. Before anyone in this made-up situation, before anyone says, oh, that person's got additional, they don't OK, in this situation, they're choosing to be annoying. They're continuing to make bad decisions. There's a consequence. They leave the room, is what you're saying, that you notice more and more that teachers and leaders, etcetera are thinking, oh, gosh, yeah, that that is what we should do, but it's not worth the backlash from this parent. So do you know what? Just keep them in there. Yeah, that is one that. Is one of the things I'm saying. And on top of that very linked point, like exclusions like so the children actually being sent home from school happens way less frequently now.

28:02 It's always well, there's a big. Thing in the news recently, right? Exactly right about literally that, which is don't send children home for exclusion, keep them in school. All well and good, all well and good. I understand the I genuinely understand the pros. Where are they going? Who's funding to look after them? Where does that come from? Like what? What like. And are you saying that actually there's not a, you know, most of the time when there's an exclusion, it's a safety thing and actually they should not be in the building. That's part of an exclusion. Sometimes part of the reason. So there has to be a balance. Yeah, exactly. And there's just some layer. I feel like my brain's going all over the place. But even thinking back, right, even when I was at school, I, I still remember there was those few kids who were terribly behaved. And when they got excluded or suspended or whatever, they go don't care.

28:45 My mom doesn't care anyway. My mom, my mom thinks the school's stupid. My mom will back me up to the empty ground. I remember thinking that kid just does what they want because their mom just comes in and shouts like dad comes in and shouts louder. And it's like, and I feel like that's just got worse basically in terms of maybe even just the respect for the profession, I don't know, but just the ability to overwrite override rather, you know, these, these things that we're saying are sacred in terms of we need consistent, stringent policies in terms of behaviour and consequences in the school, obviously with leeway for, for children in different circumstances, but generalising here. We need, it needs to be strict and consistent. When that gets overridden by parents, it kind of just undermines the entire thing. And I feel like behaviour is now that I think that's a huge cause of why behaviour is getting worse, because parents just don't respect the school system. So we've said a lot about.

29:30 Like tangible things you can do about it because and I think it's really hard to make parents care, right? But I guess a big part of what we're saying is when that happens with parents, we need schools to really, really keep their backbone and keep that in, you know, what I say and do in this school goes, yeah, and do whether it's going to kick off a fuss or not. That's the point I'm making. I suppose as soon as the school and the SLT in particular say, do you know what, it's just easier for me to pack this parent and this sorry teacher. Can you say sorry or, you know, or can you, can you just just don't do that to him anymore? As soon as that starts happening, you know, I guess that that's when it can spiral and get worse and worse, worse, worse, worse. And it happens. It happens a lot because then it's backing up the parent and the parent thinks they've won. Do you think that parent will stop? Yeah, no.

30:15 If one wants another one and another one, another one. So I just, I find it, I find it really interesting and I yeah, I struggled to pick one. I really do struggle to pick one. But in general, I think all three of those things are weaker than before. And you can say, oh, it started with the parents, or it started with the consequences, or it started with restorative justice or it started with leadership that, you know, being detached from the classroom. You could look at anywhere in this cycle and and argue as to where it started. It's kind of irrelevant, really, because I think every single one of them is being eroded, which is in turn making the whole thing harder. Yeah, for sure. A lot, a lot of data shows that since COVID had a big decline since COVID time. Do you think that's a coincidence or do you think something to something about COVID has amplified all of these things or some of these things?

30:59 I think for sure I'd be. Interesting to see what happens like pretty much from now onwards as well, where, you know, especially in primary school, you'll get to the point very soon where the children in year 6 actually had no disruption. Yeah, and the parents didn't. Go through that exactly, yeah. Exactly that. I do think it's insane to suggest that it wouldn't have any kind of effect like, and even just looking at the data shows that it did. It's like what a coincidence when when we were locked in the house for a year and a half, behaviour got worse. Of course it did Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course it did with there was no did children who were young, socialised less, had less interaction with their peers, had less interaction with school people. One of the big thing thing in the in the school readiness document we went through last week was it's an important milestone for children to understand that they can be looked after and cared for by other adults.

31:47 That's an important learning step. That's an important thing for a child to learn before they go to school. That didn't happen for a lot of kids, no. So who's this guy telling me what to do? I ran around the house freely for years and years because, you know, not not even blame the parents here, but like, if you're, if you're, you know, trying to work from home, yeah. And you've got a three-year old. I tell you right now, if I was working rhyme with a three-year old, that three-year old would be doing stuff I would absolutely not be letting him do if it was just me one to one looking after him all the time. Of course, it's not true. I assume there are limitations to what we can achieve and do. So I think it's it's to me, it's very obvious. It's very, very obvious that that had an effect. I don't know about you. Yeah, for sure. Like. Literally directly on the on the kids and again, just having back to that parent culture. I do think there was a bit of a rise after that of people, parents almost feeling like they're waking up to the broken system and being like, hang on a minute.

32:32 I've had my kid at home for this time. I've I've had way more insights into school maybe than I'd ever have before in a non COVID situation. And my opinions on school have changed now. And for some people, it was quite positive. They were like, Oh my God, the teachers, I don't know how you do this. This is crazy. I can't even look at like, this is madness. You've got 32 of these. And for other parents it was the opposite. And they're saying actually I, I think the school system's rubbish like, like you're my kid cleaning these loads of these things that I now really am, you know, alerted to. Do you think that's ever justified? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Like I'm not. Going to sit here and pretend I haven't spent 170 episodes saying the system of education is completely broken. From the teacher's perspective, it is. It's completely broken. And a lot of parents were wised up, wisened up to that. And unfortunately one of the side effects of that is in some situations that manifested, manifested as cool.

33:15 I don't care about school. I think the system's ridiculous. Don't you dare. You have no authority over my child. You're down here now in my head, teachers and education staff in general, my kid can do what they want. Don't you dare tell them what to do. Do I think one of the? Trickiest things with this whole situation as well is like, I think what you're saying is absolutely true. And if you boil it down, you I think sometimes parents forget that it's a very, very different environment and atmosphere, being in a clash and then being at home. And I think sometimes when you hear about what parents say about their children, it'll be things like, oh, you know, at home, I, I give him this because it really helps him in this situation. Or he behaves in that way that and I can react and maybe you can do that. It's like just sometimes I just can't because whether, whether I know that child is your absolute world, I get it.

33:59 But in my classroom, I wish this wasn't the case, but he's 1 of 33 and I and I physically can't give that level of 1 to 1 interaction with that child because I've got 32 other parents who also would like me to do that. And I need to make decisions based on the whole and the group. And that's where I've said before and voiced my frustrations about education, that some children get left behind. So when a parent of one of the children who I think is getting left behind, complain and moan about it, I'm like, yeah, you're right. But I can't do anything because if I did, if I moved the dial to that, someone else would miss out. And I have to as A and as a system, we have to make a decision based on the needs of the children as to who's going to get more of my attention or not. Is that good?

34:42 No. Is it worth getting angry and undermining my behaviour strategies because of it? Also no. Yeah, that's the thing. Like it doesn't. Mean we have to. Go to that. We can both be frustrated by something. I can really understand your frustrations, but you can't then complain and moan about the school because something isn't exactly how you want it now. Of course it's not. Go and get a private one to one tutor to homeschool your kid all week then. Oh no, I can't afford that. Exactly. There you go. But neither can we. That's what we've got to work with. So it frustrates me. No, it's interesting and I. Think to summarise everything we've said so far. I think it's all really about external perspectives of school and how that's maybe changed over the years and how that might have impacted behaviour. And I think there's lots of really good valid reasons we've talked about. But I do think there's a couple of other sort of valid points to talk about. Maybe you don't have to go into too much into depth with these ones, but I'll leave it open to you. So mental health, we've talked about mental health for children before and how it's declined that that's something that is different and, and do you think that? That was different 1st and therefore behaviours getting worse, yeah.

35:42 You think? That came first. That makes sense. I think to me right now, I don't know or could. I think there are reasons in tandem. Yeah, it isn't very much in tandem. But I do think that there there are maybe other reasons that we're not having to discuss right now that meant that mental health for children is is different to how it used to be. It's declined on average. And I do think that that will have an impact on behaviour. I think I have an impact on how you behave as a human being. And sometimes that behaviour is negative. Well, not even negative, but. In in the environment of the classroom, the way it presents itself is perceived as negative. And and I I think, yeah, you're right. Like do we need to update, modernise what we see as bad behaviour? For sure. I don't think I'm I am slightly worried this conversation is turning into the school's always right. Get over it. That's why I keep trying to go to like, I understand what parents mean in the end of the day. No, I agree.

36:24 Same with mental health. Like if, if they're, you know, in the same way we would never say some of ADHD is choosing not to listen in the same way we would never villainize them for that. Yeah, with with mental health, which is much harder to see and isn't being diagnosed remotely at the speed that needs to be done. I agree. You know, are there times where, you know, as a school system will brush over the mental health aspect and just be like, sort yourself out And it's like, oh, actually, no, there are underlying features. And. And so, you know, I'm just worried when we set up this thing of just saying, oh, all behaviours, communication did it there and we basically took the piss out of that. Yeah, I'm like, I don't want people to think that I don't think that doesn't exist. No, no, sure. So it's complicated. It's funny because my. The ending of this point was talking about mental health. Is that because there's such a systemic failure in terms of no funding to address these things?

37:08 That's why I think that there's an issue because children are not getting the help they need. Yeah. So so behaviour is presenting in a different way, like we should be helping these children, but there's there's nothing more to it. I'm not even saying, yeah, so there should be more consequences for these kids for having worse mental health. That was a crazy thing to say that we we should be helping these kids and they're not getting the help they need. Like there's a crisis and we're not reacting to it as a system. But that's that's a fundamental issue. I think that that is a factor amongst many. So another one for me, one we, I won't go in too much depth because we talked about Lois, but social, social media culture, you think about the Andrew Tate, we talked about that in by ages ago with like the rise of big influencers who having a huge impacts on, on the culture of children. Like, and a part of that can sometimes be, yeah, screw the system, man, let's behave how we want. And OK, part of that is being a kid, I'm sure. But social media is, is amplified. There's nothing like social media in, in the history in terms of the way it's like gotten into children's brains. Like it is, it is anything you can think of in the past that had a huge impact on how kids behave way bigger, way more amplified.

38:03 So I think social media is is another huge one, absolutely. And I guess this goes back to him saying, you know, when the conversation is, has behaviour got worse And it's like, it feels like the initial reaction is either just like, yeah, the kids these days are ridiculous. It's like, mate, there's 74 reasons why it's got worse. Yeah. It's not got worse just because they're inherently bad. Yeah, it's got worse for lots of external factors. And in the same way someone else goes, yes, but but it's no one's fault. And we should just, you know, let them do what they need to do. And that's also ridiculous. Like, we have to have really, really nuanced in like, conversations about this and dive into to reasons why and understand things on a tiny granular level and understand that there's differences between lots of individual children. But we can still see the trends.

38:44 Has behaviour got worse? Of course it has. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why has it got worse? For 58 different reasons, Yeah. Can we solve it overnight? Well, clearly not. No. But are there solutions? To these things, yes, that's the honest truth. Like everything we've said so far, there are solutions to these things. I'm not saying that that that all of them are grounded in like immediate reality. Some of them are more ideological than others. Like, can we just make culture change to not demonise teachers? Well, no, but that would be a solution to that one thing, and we can't do it overnight. Exactly. Can't even if we. Pick one thing out. Of these 57, a lot of them can't be just like overnight, OK, done, fixed. You're not going to see tangible effects of whatever you introduce quickly. And I'll make a wider point about society in general. I do think that unless you because of the culture we live in of fast news and 24 hour news cycles and seeing things and then forgetting about them immediately. I really, really think it's harder than ever to have a long term effect on something that's positive. Because all you'll see in the meantime is that it cost loads to do and there's not an impact tomorrow. So people will start saying, well that can go, we need to save money somewhere that's pointless waste of money. Some things take longer than a parliament to do. Some things take longer than a cycle of power for the people deciding.

39:50 And there are certain things like education, health, things that are pillars to society that I think should be really just stripped back from this power cycle. Let the buffoons talk on television and and get one up on each other and, and chat nonsense. And then when they're in power, say one thing. When they're out of power, say another thing and all that crap. Let them do their popularity contest, whatever. And they can talk about certain things. But the fundamental, you know, root of our Society of what we think about for long term growth. Has to be separate. And has to be led by. Experts, yeah, and there's no there's no separation of that at the minute and because of that, we'll continue to have things like this where experts say no, I don't think that's actually a good idea because of XYZ oh, but it sounds good on a little press release we've got that we can say tomorrow and then if it doesn't work out well, at least we've got the little news thing for the one day yeah, yeah who cares if you've got the.

40:36 News thing for the one day, is it fundamentally a good thing? I agree. It has to be about that. Will it take longer than five years to show impact? Yes. Cool. Don't do it then. Yeah. Yeah. It's because everything's the everything is dictated by that cycle. You're absolutely right. Some things for, I mean the education existing itself shows that some things take 17 or 18 years. Do you know what I mean, to manifest or maybe that log is obviously the first for years. No, no. It's cool, but you go. To university, but yeah, of course, yeah. And you? Keep going. But like, clearly that process takes a long time of, you know, becoming educated or whatever. So like it's just such an imbalance, isn't it? My last point on this and we kind of addressed it. So we will skim over it. It's just systemic pressures in general on on the system of education and just attendance targets things, things that maybe didn't happen before that do happen now or are more amplified now that put pressure on schools to respond to behaviours in different ways. That's just another thing that I think over time has changed and it might be impacting why kids are behave in certain ways because schools can't do the same things they used to do or they have different pressures impacting their decisions. Turns out it's complicated.

41:32 It's complicated and it and it's not us. Saying it used to be better, it's not a saying. It's now worse than ever in terms of the structures and things that are in place. That it's a really good thing that we care for kids more than ever before. It's a very good thing that we understand the importance of mental health. It's amazing that we have a deeper understanding about the additional needs of children and, and, and understand what their needs might be to stop them having meltdowns. Just do you know what? Back in my day, you wouldn't be allowed to go for a little calm down, walk around the corridors. Well, that was awful for that kid. Thank God we have that now for this child who has that specific need and they can go out the room and calm down. Fantastic that we know that I do. You know what I loved more? Honestly, it was probably the top thing in in teaching that I just loved. There's like a humanity level kind of thing was when you're in a room with with 32 eight-year olds and they just get that someone's different and they just understand it. And there's none of this thing that you seem to get as an adult.

42:23 He got this thing. Why don't I get that thing? It it didn't happen in the classroom, there'd be there'd be a child there who even sometimes would shout out and wouldn't get the same response from me as if someone else shouted out. And they all knew that and were fine with it because they knew just whether it was inherently or also just from me modelling it, that there are different bars and things and expectations for different people based on them individually. And they did not care. And it didn't ruin my behaviour management. They knew that this person sometimes can't control that they shout out. They knew that that person in the back didn't like talking in front of crowds. So when I said to someone, no, come on, come to the front, do it.

43:05 And I made them do it and they were a bit nervous about it, but they come up the front, they did it and they felt good about themselves. When I didn't then pester the other person to do it. They didn't go. Oh, you pestered me. Yeah, they. Understood that. And I could say to them, yeah, you know, you just need you needed a bit of encouragement and me just and you felt better. Now that'll make that person feel 10 times worse. It everything I'm doing is for the outcome of you as an individual. And I guess that's my point. I think, you know, we just need a bit more trust sometimes when people are in front of your kids And and I think sometimes it's parents projecting onto children what's fair and what's not. Kids kind of seem to get it. They genuinely in general, I always found kids seem to get it. So, you know, tap it more trust in what's going on in the classroom.

43:47 I agree. Now you've said it, it's. Made me realise that's absolutely true. But every, every experience I've had, the classes have been more and more and more and more understanding of other children with different needs in the in the class like lovely. They're just lovely human beings like crazy. So I think yeah, we'll finish the episode in a minute. So the the last thing I want to do really is just bring this all down to reality in terms of, you know, if you're a teacher and you're listening to this, what's the point of this conversation? Not really. Turn off. Yeah, no really for. Me like the the meta point right now is that Dylan's already said it. We're not going to solve this overnight. And you're as an individual teacher, you are not going to solve this issue. And you know, I think back to our Q&A, someone said, oh, I'm struggling with some behaviours. Is it, do I just accept it or do I, should I keep trying?

44:27 Yeah, we should keep trying. We should all keep trying as a collective and individually. But as a teacher, there is only so much you can do. You can't actually go up against the media and battle how they perceive teachers for 10 years and completely intercept people's minds on that. You know how they now think of teachers. Do you know what you can do? What's that? You can go to net mums, set up an anonymous account and start fighting back and all the people rage bait against teachers and you know what else you can do? That's. A pretty good one. You can also have consistent routines and expectations like you mentioned earlier. That's a really big one. Having consistency in your classroom, routine expectations, that's one little thing that you can do to help manage school. That's the next thing. Up the whole school. If you feel like you work in a school where you've or different teachers have different ways of dealing with certain behaviours, you should address that.

45:07 You should actually bring that out. That would be a really good thing. If you if you, if you're a bit afraid sometimes of maybe putting your head above the parapet, this is the one to do it with. Say it's bad for our kids that we're not really consistent with behaviour and policies across this school. When one kid, when a kid goes through this school, they should know what the boundaries are and what the what the rules are all the way through that is going to help with behaviour management in your class. And then the next thing for me, and I'm going to need you to talk about this because you did this phenomenally in your career and I'll never say that again. Is, is the is, is how you treat the children. It sounds really condescending, but the positive relationships that you actually build with the children on a one to one. Yeah, look. I I get it because you see things online and it is a joke and it's hilarious. And so did you try building a relationship with them? Yes, of course, I didn't build a relationship with every single kid.

45:53 What I did was just gave the opportunity for children to feel welcomed, safe and enjoy in my classroom. That's all we're saying here. If you're not at least trying to do that, then why are you shocked when kids don't like being in the room? Like you have to at least try to do it. And a big thing, what I always say to people is it's OK to not succeed in something, but you, you can't not try. And that, that, that just goes through absolutely everything in life. And I say it to my kids in my class, and I say it to my fellow colleagues as well. You know, my colleagues are saying, oh, we just hate being in my classroom. Say, have you, have you tried to make him not hate it? And they might look me like, of course I have, you idiot. And for some people, I'd never even ask that question because it's insulting. But you'll be surprised how many, how many times they'll just go no.

46:34 And that that teacher maybe had a preconception of that kid, right? Sure. I'm just, all I'm saying is it is our job to try and do these things. And the vast majority of teachers are trying to do it all the time. And if you try to do it and it doesn't work, what I'm not saying is, well, just try harder. Nonsense. Yeah. Yeah, just just. But you have to try. You have to. Try and the the first like sort of in the same line of thinking I was trying to reflect on my career as well. The first thing I ever put effort into myself and I was actively doing it to to be better at it. I wasn't. It wasn't just natural, was showing humility to the kids. Yeah, like I actively thought to myself, I am in certain situations not going to just respond and be shouting and embarrassed because something went wrong. Whether I am going to model to the children how to take a little bit of a joke and then immediately get back into the boundary zone of like, OK, but we're doing this.

47:17 I'm not going to go off crate off the wall and then we're all having a laugh for 20 minutes. But I am just going to model to them. Sometimes. Sometimes depends what it was, but I will model to them because there are some kids in the class who I no need to see this because as soon as they get called out on something, it, it becomes a huge thing and escalates. And do you know what they need to learn how to behave in certain situations, how to respond and react. And I would actually go out my way to model a bit of humility to the kids. That's one thing you can do in terms of building relationships. They kids like you more when you act like a human and when you act like them. OK so so like when even saying that I I I agree with what you're saying, but even saying that that sentence triggered me slightly. Go on when you said kids will like you more if you do this Like who cares? Why do you care if the kids like you?

47:58 And I see it's a lot. And yeah, people, they're right. It's not your job to be the friends of the kid. It's not your job to make every kid like you and stuff like that. No, but is it bad? Like, I'm not, I'm not. You know, it's always framed and like, yeah, you loser. Why do you want kids to be friends of you? It's like, Oh my God. Do you think I craved the, the, the friendship of a nine year old? Of course not. Do you know what? Though I don't respect anyone I don't like I. Think maybe they get. Conflated. Like it's an easy word to use. It's very broad. OK, if you want to like, if people want to be nitpicky about the word like you're choosing, the bit of like that makes it sound weird. Oh, do you need kids to like you? No, I want kids. I want kids to want to be in the classroom and I don't want to be. So I don't want to be in a room with someone I don't like. I don't want to be in a room with someone I don't respect.

48:40 I just don't want to. Like, why would the kids want to? What do we expect them to be different now You have to no. Does it mean they'll all respect? You and like you all the time. Also no, but I'll try my best to. Make an environment where they think I like being in the room with this. Yeah, and maybe the reason isn't. Just I need a mate who's nine. Yeah, that's not that. Yeah. No, the reason is never the reason. The reason is because then you'll probably be more likely to be interested and learn the things and actually behave quite well. Because when I was younger, guess what? I behaved really well for the teachers that I respected and liked. And funnily enough, I was a little shit for the ones that I didn't really like and didn't respect. There is a tangible link between liking and respecting someone and then actually making better decisions about how you behave. And, and hilariously, the end of all this learning stuff, I learned more stuff with the teachers I liked because I was listening, because I respected with them.

49:22 There's just a chain of effects. And I think as a teacher, you're putting on an act all the time because you know this, you know that we're kind of, it's like we're just tricking the kids into learning stuff all the time. Yeah, in a crude way, we are. And one of those things is, OK, be nice to them then. But hey, then I did that to this. Kid. And they still let me down. OK, that's on them. Yeah, Cool. That's on them. Just one strategy. Exactly. It's on them. As well, I remember from my old career, because I think about my career in general, behaviour management was strong for me. Yeah. So when I'm saying this, it's not me saying it. And then I'm saying it from a point of view that it worked a lot of the time. But let me tell you something right now, it didn't work a lot of the time as well. And I've spoken about before how when it didn't work, I always felt like a bit of a fraud. So what do I do now? I've tried the things I think work. I've tried being. Nice, right? So like when someone. Hears a saying that and they're like well I've tried that you idiots can you give me some extra help? Yeah.

50:07 Do you know what, there comes a point where you're like, you follow the school rules, you're really consistent if they keep doing it. And even I've had before a parents back you up, I've had all the trifecta working perfectly and the kid is still still continuing to behave that way. I'm like, OK, I'm trying. Yep, Yep. You know what? There was a kid at the end of the year who still couldn't write his name properly. I kept trying. I kept, I didn't go. I've shown you 4 times how to write your name. Why can't you do it now? I'll give up. I don't like you anymore. No, same thing. Try and have the same attitude. It's not easy. It's not easy because it's, you know, with education it's very much like, it does feel like it's more part of like what your role is etcetera.

50:50 But with behaviour, it's the same thing. Like you, you will still get a kid just like who can't write their name after three months properly. After three months, still can't behave properly. You still have to keep trying. I agree. And there'll be some. Kids you make progress with. Some kids you make rapid progress with. Some kids you don't make as much progress with at all, or none. Sometimes it feels like and it's tough when it happens. Because I, like you said, I've had years where you have a class and the dynamics just different. Every, everyone knows that dynamics of every class are different. And I've had like, you know, even like 6-7, eight years into my career where I thought, I feel like I've stepped backwards in behaviour management. I obviously haven't, I obviously haven't stepped back in behaviour management. And it's easy for teachers to think sometimes, what have I done? Nothing, nothing.

51:31 There's 32 kids, there's 33 people in this room. You're one of them. There's only so much you can control, so when that happens, don't necessarily think it's because of you. There's just different dynamic in the room. It's hardly, and it could be. Are we still? Trying to adapt and we still, like we said, still trying to implement some of these things, but it does get to a point where, OK, it's out of your control. I agree. So it is behaviour getting worse. Well, yeah, obviously the stats said so straight away. That's almost undeniable. Behaviour is getting worse. Why is it getting worse? Is it a simple answer? No, that's the whole point in this episode. So next time someone says, Oh, yeah, it's because of this and they've given you an answer in 12 seconds, they probably haven't thought really much about it. And you probably they should just take a pinch of salt and tell them to listen to this podcast instead, right.

52:11 Which they can do. You can share it with a friend exactly like we love shares. How do they do that? I, I I don't actually know. Click on share, Copy the share button somewhere. Yeah. They can also rate it ratings. Really. We're going past I think it went past 300 on Spotify. That'd be good, considering. We have thousands of listeners you think are behind, but you know what? I'm not going to go on about the ratio anymore because I just like a like flogging a dead cash cow. Can't believe it. No throwback to their episode. Guys, Go and watch our cold catalogue. We've got nearly 200 episodes. We keep doing 2 a week. We'll see you next time. See you.