Ep 180: Teacher Training, Middle Leadership & Finding The Right School: Our Teaching Journey

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Hello everyone, welcome back to
another episode of teach steep

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repeat.
My name is Dylan and my name's

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Hayden and we are this week
going to be diving into our

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story, our journey.
We both taught for 10 years in

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schools.
I taught for 10 years.

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Definitely not 9, definitely 10,
definitely not one less than

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you.
And we, we had a few people

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message us saying about like,
oh, how did you meet each other?

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What did you do?
What's your story?

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Who are you like?
Why should I listen to you?

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Remember to talk about.
Education.

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Why am I even messaging?
You what's going on right now in

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this situation?
And I just thought it'd be good

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for the new listeners as well.
I looked back at the episodes

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and we haven't actually spoken
about our story in a long time.

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And even when we did, it wasn't
really indeed like.

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Pockets of things, weren't they?
Yeah.

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So I thought it'd be nice to
actually just dive into who we

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are, our story for teaching, and
eventually we left teaching.

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So I think it's going to be
something that resonates to a

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lot of people, whether they're
at the stage of at the start of

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their career, bright eyed, bushy
tailed and wanting to do the

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best, whether they're thinking,
oh, is this for me?

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Whether they're left teaching
all together.

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That'll be something for
everyone and hopefully it gives

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us a bit of validation as well.
People understand, oh, these

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guys, OK, right, They do maybe
know.

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And they are also relatively
normal human beings.

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Also that relatively I did say
relatively.

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Fair enough, fair enough.
No problem.

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So I'm going to start straight
away.

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Hayden, did you always want to
be a teacher or was it just

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those who can't teach?
So you have to end up doing that

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I guess.
Classic.

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When I was a kid, I, I, I didn't
obviously think I'm going to be

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a teacher when I order.
I wanted to do like something to

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do with media or acting or art
or film, something like that.

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Maybe something math.
So, you know, they're completely

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different.
But often people say art maths

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are quite well linked today.
But that's kind of, that was

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kind of my passion.
It wasn't until I did a work

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experience placement when I was
what, like 16?

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Whenever you do work experience.
And I got placed in a school and

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I was like, oh, this is kind of
cool.

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Lucky for me, I got placed with
a really nice teacher who

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embraced the fact they had a 16
year old, probably objectively

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quite annoying in their
classroom and just yeah, work,

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just work with some kids.
And I was like, this is kind of

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cool.
I think that planted the seed.

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And then I still went back to
the media, went off and did a

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degree in film, radio and
television.

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Wasted three years, basically
never went in, racked up from

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there.
It was pretty stupid really.

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But you know, got the new
experience, as they say.

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And then that finished.
I tried to get into industry,

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realised it was not for me like
it was.

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It's very cutthroat, full of
like these super confident

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people.
That was just not me, especially

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then, like I'm probably a bit
more confident now, but really

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still inside I'm just that
person who's a bit shy and like

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that was a bit scary to me.
I was like, wow, this is that

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was a huge mistake.
And then I was like, oh, wonder,

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wonder if that teaching thing
was a good idea.

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Went back in, volunteered at my
local school that I went to and

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it didn't take me long from then
to go, Ah, this is really nice.

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This is really wholesome.
I thoroughly enjoy the kind of

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people that work here.
I thoroughly enjoy working and

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to the point with like children.
It felt great just to help

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someone get something and from
there that was it.

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I just was like cool.
PGC did.

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I didn't think twice about it.
Just signed up for PGC, managed

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to get in and the rest is
history.

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One year course and then Bang
was in teaching.

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What was the what was the
situation for you?

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Quite quite similar.
To be fair, I never thought I

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wanted to be a teacher, to be
perfectly honest with you.

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But I had a really good
experience at school.

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I think a lot of teachers do
have good experiences with

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school.
I know a lot of teachers who

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didn't and actually they're
really good teachers because of

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it.
And they don't do the, the

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misgivings that they had
basically done to them when they

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were at school.
But yeah, I, I, I didn't know

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what I was going to do to both
of you.

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Like, I went to university.
I very much felt like I was a

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byproduct of the funnel of you
went to a grammar school, you go

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into university.
So we have to pick something.

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And I was like, oh, well, I
don't know what I want to do.

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And in my A Levels I did history
and maths and physics.

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I could have done any of them to
be honest with you, because I

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enjoyed all of them.
But I got my best mark and my

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highest performance was in
history.

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So I did history at university.
Again, much like you, I didn't

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really spend a lot of time going
into university.

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I didn't really engage with it
too much.

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That's my own problem.
I get that.

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But like all got like got the
experience, like you said,

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finished up and I was working
part time since sixth form.

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So for like 4 or five years
working part time at local Asda

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and it got to the end of my PGC
and I still really didn't quite

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know what I wanted to do.
So there was an opportunity

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there to be the, the, the,
what's the word, the leader,

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section leader or something.
They'd call it Asda basically

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where they'd make you the
manager but not pay your manager

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wages.
Do you mean the end of your

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degree, not your PGC?
Sorry, end of my degree.

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Sorry, my end of my three-year
degree.

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So I went full time doing that
and within two weeks I was just

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like, I just, I don't want to do
this.

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Like the amount of
responsibility and stuff and and

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like the I was basically on shop
floor wages and that's just

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like, that's not for me.
And I was in the bakery.

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I was I in charge of the bloody
bakery?

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You can't bake anything.
Obviously I was like 22, in

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charge of a bakery, never once
baked anything in my life.

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And I was talking to bakers
saying, oh, we've got the bread

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ready.
So I don't want to talk.

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Yes, mate, of course.
Do you know what my job is?

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Of course.
I've got the bread ready, you

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idiot.
Literally.

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But so in that year I actually
did quite a few things, things

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where I submitted my CV to
recruiters and I got a few

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opportunities to go up to
London.

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I had some interviews, some big
group interviews for recruitment

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basically.
So I gave my CV to recruiters

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and they tried to place me in
Group recruitment as well.

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And I got a week's trial in a
London office recruiting for

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tech, for tech companies and for
like, so basically what happens

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with a lot of people who work in
tech like that, they, they just

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are freelance and work contract
to contract.

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So like we'd get a job in from a
big bank.

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It was like a 12 month contract.
You need certain, you know,

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qualifications or experience in
writing code in certain

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languages.
And then you'd call them up and

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say, I've got this contract
here, it's a 12 month contract,

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it's £200,000.
You'd be doing this, this and

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this.
I see you're suitable for the

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role, we've matched you out.
Would you be interested in this?

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Loads of cold calling.
Yeah, 8090% of the time they

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weren't interested.
No, that's right.

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Thank you.
Bye.

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Or the phone didn't.
That was not for me.

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Yeah.
My goodness.

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Doing that.
No one is it social interaction,

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which I struggle with at the
best of times.

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It's salesy.
It's pushy.

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Positive.
The same thing over and over.

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Right.
And I didn't know what I was

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trying to sell.
Like right now when we talk

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about Mathsu, where we're
currently at, where we built a

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maths platform and it's our
passion and it doesn't feel like

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sellers talk because it's just
what I'm passionate about and

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what I think will help people.
We built it exactly.

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Whereas this was like, Oh yes,
you'll be doing your C++ or your

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JavaScript.
Isn't that fantastic?

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I didn't know what I was
talking.

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About just reading of a script.
Yeah, literally, I had no idea.

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Anyway, so 1 1/2 days into that
week, I remember going into the

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boss and just saying I'm not
going to carry on, sorry, this

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isn't for me.
And I just went home.

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Yeah.
And yeah.

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And then and I started thinking
about teaching was in the back

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of my mind for a little bit
through this because I thought

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there was actually a teacher in
the office who used to be a

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teacher and was now doing
recruitment.

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So I spoke to him a bit, right,
right.

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He was a music teacher in
secondary and he said he loved

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it, but he wanted to make more
money because there was a lot

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more Commission that you can
make in there.

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And I was like, OK, fair enough.
I'm going to start my career

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classic.
So I went.

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I did some days at my old
grammar school, went back in for

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a couple of days because I
thought maybe I'll do secondary

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history.
Oh, I didn't know he did that.

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Yeah, yeah.
So I went back in there,

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shadowed a couple of my old
teachers for a day.

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It was fun, but you know, there
was one day where a teacher

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taught the same year 8 lesson 4
times in a row.

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They just happened to have all
the they happened to have four

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year eight classes all in one
day.

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And I just watched the same
lesson 4 times in a row and I

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was like, well I'm bored now.
I can't see myself doing this.

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I wonder what primaries like.
Went into primary, loved it.

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And I think a big thing you're
picking up on what you said.

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The people who work in primary
schools mostly are such good

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people.
And really nice.

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Exactly that and like the
atmosphere coming from like the

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recruitment process and it being
a bit more business and

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cutthroat, although there's, you
know, there's benefits to that

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in terms of maybe your pay pack,
it might be more.

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Personally, I, I think it's all
about the team you work with in

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any environment and schools in
general tend to have really good

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teams and good people involved.
Not saying you can't get that

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elsewhere in the private sector,
you absolutely can.

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We work with people now who are
unbelievable and I love working

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with them, but hedging your
bets, like most people in the

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school are really good, nice
people to work with.

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Did that for a few days, went to
the PGC, applied for the PGC,

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got onto it and yeah.
And and that was that was my

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journey really up until till
training.

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So what was what was your
specific training routes?

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We both, we both did PGC, didn't
we?

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Yeah, yeah.
So yours was PGC math

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specialism, which love to
randomise, right.

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Mine was just PG was the last
year.

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Where that was the only version
of it that you could, that you

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could do and you just got, to
you, it was the same sort of

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thing.
You picked your specialism

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within the course.
You still, you still chose

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maths.
I still chose maths and probably

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did exactly.
You had my tutor as well.

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Yeah, we literally did the same
thing.

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What you learned the year after
was the same thing I did, but I

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had to pick it.
And other people didn't pick

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that.
But we were all under the

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umbrella of the same course.
It wasn't from the outset like,

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oh, you're the math specialist
version of the course anyway.

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It was a bit different.
So yeah, it was a, it was a, I'm

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sure you have the same thing.
It was a crazy year.

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PGC is absolutely wild.
Like madness.

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And I remember someone saying to
me they were like, well, yeah,

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you are doing the three-year
course in one year.

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Like realistically you do need
to come out with as much of that

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knowledge that people get in the
three-year course as you do.

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Like you, you can't just they're
not, you're not going to lose 2

226
00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,080
years worth of the knowledge and
come out with a third of the

227
00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:33,400
knowledge.
It doesn't make sense.

228
00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,799
You still have to learn, even if
it's slightly more superficial

229
00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:37,240
because it's just you are
restrained by time.

230
00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:39,840
Used to me to learn everything
about the job, to go and do the

231
00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:41,360
job.
And I was always like, yeah,

232
00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,360
that that is actually kind of
crazy, isn't it, that people are

233
00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,320
spending three years and I'm
spending one year doing that.

234
00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:47,640
I know Lauren did the three-year
course.

235
00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,800
Did do you, do you regret that?
Like do you like, even though

236
00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,040
it's more intense, do you think
that having some experience

237
00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,680
doing something else or having a
three-year course in something

238
00:08:57,680 --> 00:08:59,760
else where at least your options
were open for a bit longer?

239
00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:01,480
Do you think that's a good
thing?

240
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,400
Or looking back, do you think,
well, I might as well just on a

241
00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:04,760
three-year course and just go
straight into it?

242
00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,000
I don't know, it's so hard
because obviously I only know

243
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,880
what I've done.
What what I can tell you is I

244
00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,680
think that was perfect for me.
The PGC being one year and

245
00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:15,160
crammed like that actually made
me do it.

246
00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,560
The three-year course I did
before that was too relaxed and

247
00:09:17,560 --> 00:09:18,880
therefore I just didn't take it
seriously.

248
00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,040
I actually think if I'd done the
three-year teaching course, I

249
00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,160
just would have got bored and
like I would have stopped taking

250
00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:28,960
it as seriously because I needed
the intensity of that PGC year

251
00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,840
to make me fully absorbed in it.
And maybe it was just timing as

252
00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:33,800
well.
Perhaps if perhaps no matter

253
00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,440
what I did when I was 18, it
all, it all would have failed

254
00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:37,920
because I was 18 and maybe that
was the problem.

255
00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:39,800
Do you know what I mean?
But when I was 22 coming into

256
00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,120
this PGCE and I'd had a bit of
experience and I was a bit more

257
00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:43,680
like, OK, I want to try and sort
my life out now.

258
00:09:43,680 --> 00:09:46,440
Because actually I also, like
you, did a year working at Tesco

259
00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,680
in that gap year before I went.
I didn't go full time.

260
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,240
Sorry, I was green army.
I was Asda.

261
00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:52,920
Not like you, I'm afraid.
Yeah, we were not friends then.

262
00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:54,720
No, I still didn't even go full
time there.

263
00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,440
I was just honestly a bit of a
bit of a waster.

264
00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,280
I was doing.
I was just didn't know what I

265
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,320
was doing.
I was just like with the wind,

266
00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,360
you know, all over the place.
But PGC locked me in and that

267
00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,200
was what I needed.
So three-year, I don't know,

268
00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,480
probably would have been.
Did you think it was, did you

269
00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,200
think training was adequate like
when you were going through it?

270
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,480
Because I personally, the
training year that my PGC, I've

271
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,960
said this before, was my
favourite year in education, as

272
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,800
in personally when I was being
like educated, I was a pupil.

273
00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:22,480
Yeah, Yeah, it was.
It was my favourite.

274
00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,760
It was my favourite year because
it really felt like I was really

275
00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,360
narrowing down onto a skill
which is teaching and there's

276
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,800
loads to do teaching, but it's
it's the one thing you're doing.

277
00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,680
I felt really busy all the time.
I felt like it was my chance to

278
00:10:34,680 --> 00:10:36,440
really throw myself into
something and I felt like I was

279
00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,760
good at it and I enjoyed being
in a school and I was with

280
00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:41,320
really good people.
I was very lucky.

281
00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,360
Like we've still got friends now
who I trained with at the time

282
00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,520
who we know are local and still
be teaching.

283
00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,360
Some have left, some haven't,
but it was just such a good

284
00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,400
experience and I, I absolutely
loved it and I can see why some

285
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,560
people might not thrive in the
PGC and other routes might be

286
00:10:56,560 --> 00:10:58,360
better for them.
You have schools direct where

287
00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,000
you can earn money as as you go
through.

288
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,920
Now you, like you said, you've
got the three-year course.

289
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,320
I don't think there's one size
that fits all, but I think it's

290
00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,080
important to find something that
suits you because if you enjoy

291
00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:08,720
it, you're going to get more out
of it.

292
00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:09,960
Yeah, I agree.
And I'm glad there's lots more

293
00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,000
routes now and it's a lot, a lot
more accessible to get in.

294
00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,120
One thing that's always been on
my mind, I would love to know

295
00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:18,480
your answer this is, do you
think that it was appropriate or

296
00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,760
do you think it's the best model
that when you were 22 you got

297
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,920
the choice to do the PGCE
because you had done a degree in

298
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,080
the past versus another 22 year
old who maybe hadn't done a

299
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,280
degree, Wouldn't they?
What they're not given the

300
00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,320
option to do to do the PGCE.
Do you think that's fair?

301
00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:35,840
Do you think it was like, Oh
yeah, because I've done a degree

302
00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,240
before and that's what makes me
able to do it in a year?

303
00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,000
Or do you think they're not
really tangible?

304
00:11:40,560 --> 00:11:44,040
I think that that goes into more
to like how flawed the system is

305
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,280
in general of just does a degree
make you a certain calibre right

306
00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,520
As I think in general, I think
sometimes yes, sometimes no.

307
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,080
It might not.
Yeah, that's what I mean.

308
00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,240
It depends what the degree was.
I'm not even joking.

309
00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,160
Like there are some, there are
degrees out there that are worth

310
00:11:58,160 --> 00:11:59,400
more than others, not going to
lie.

311
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,520
And, you know, it makes more
sense, I think when if I'd done

312
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,880
a history degree and gone on to
be a secondary history teacher,

313
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,200
that kind of makes sense,
shouldn't it?

314
00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,360
If, you know, I had a history
degree, I wanted to be a primary

315
00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,360
history math specialist.
What they would look at for me

316
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,200
to go into the math specialist
course and to get a certain

317
00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,360
bursary level and actually like
fund it was my A level results.

318
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,000
You had to get AB or more at a
level and they didn't really

319
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,040
care what you did at university.
You just had to have had that

320
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:25,720
university degree level
education.

321
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,520
So I think there's something to
be said of getting to that

322
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,320
certain level of education.
It shows that you can get

323
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:30,680
through a course, you can do
something.

324
00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,080
But yeah, I don't know.
I think, I think that's why it's

325
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:35,040
good.
There are other roots now,

326
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,240
because, yeah, you can still
have the PGC, It can still be an

327
00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:39,040
education route.
It can still be like leading on

328
00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,600
from university.
But if that was the only way to

329
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:42,920
do stuff, I think that'd be
flawed, yeah.

330
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,000
Yeah, I, I felt, I always felt
really lucky.

331
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,200
I always felt really lucky that
I chose to on a whim, really go

332
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,320
to uni the first time, even
though I didn't take it remotely

333
00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,240
seriously and genuinely probably
got nothing from it.

334
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,080
I felt I was like, oh, I'm so
glad I kind of accidentally did

335
00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,280
that because if I was in the
same situation now as a 22 year

336
00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,240
old and I was faced with my only
option is you've got to do a

337
00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:02,680
three-year course.
Now let's imagine I hadn't gone

338
00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:04,080
to union.
This issue or you could train on

339
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:05,800
the job like a lot.
Of people do yeah, of course,

340
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,160
but to me at the time I was
like, I only knew of these two.

341
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:09,440
I just thought these were my
only options.

342
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,000
I could do the PGC or the
three-year course.

343
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,040
Yeah, if the PGC was locked to
me, I reckon I wouldn't have

344
00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:14,920
chosen to do the three-year
course and I probably would have

345
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:16,200
gone on to do to do something
else.

346
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:17,600
Yeah, but like for me it be a
bum.

347
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,120
For me it was a bit of a saviour
that I had that option to be

348
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,160
like, OK, you can do this rapid,
you do it in one year.

349
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:23,400
I was like, cool, give me that.
Yeah.

350
00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,120
That's why I always don't like
saying that university was a

351
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:26,400
complete waste of time because
it kind of.

352
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,120
Yeah, it was part of the
stepping stone to get somewhere,

353
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:29,640
open the door.
But I also so do you think

354
00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,760
university was a waste of time
in a lot of ways?

355
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,280
And I'm glad now there's more
ways to go around stuff and

356
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:35,840
still become a teacher.
And I could have still been

357
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,240
really good if, honestly, I
could have done absolutely

358
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,920
nothing in my history degree,
and I wouldn't have been a worse

359
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,280
teacher.
Like, it didn't make me better.

360
00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:44,560
That's kind of what I was trying
to get out.

361
00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:45,720
Yeah.
I, I think I would have got

362
00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:47,440
everything I would have got
about the PhD itself.

363
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,080
So I do think it's a flawed
system in a way, but I

364
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:51,520
understand why that exists.
Yeah, sure.

365
00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:52,640
That's basically what I'm trying
to get.

366
00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,200
So when you're in your placement
school, do you have, do you have

367
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,000
any particular memories,
anything come back to you like a

368
00:13:57,560 --> 00:14:00,360
like a particularly strong
memory or, or a terrible moment

369
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,000
or a fantastic moment or
something like that?

370
00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:04,360
Just thinking now, two things
stick out.

371
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,240
First, this is not one of the
two things.

372
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,560
But I will say I was so lucky
with my placement teachers.

373
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:14,640
Yeah, I had.
I had Fran and Nicole, so they

374
00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,200
were year 4, I was with year 4
with Fran, and I was in year 6

375
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,760
with Nicole when I went back in
for my long placements.

376
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,640
And they were just unbelievable.
Not only they were, they amazing

377
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,880
teachers, they were just really
helpful and nice people as well.

378
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,520
So that's the first thing I'll
say that that's so lucky, I

379
00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:28,880
think.
And my mentor was good to me as

380
00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,120
well.
And yeah, so things that stick

381
00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,960
out to me in it was like this
first or second week, both of

382
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:38,240
these things happened really
early.

383
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:43,120
The school that I was being
trained in and that you were in,

384
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:44,840
funnily enough, you were working
there.

385
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,640
You in your first year was going
through the process of becoming

386
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,280
an Academy and, and they were
also going through the process

387
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,320
at the time of talking about pay
and stuff and restructuring.

388
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,040
And I remember being sat in the
back corner of the classroom, it

389
00:14:58,040 --> 00:14:59,640
was just me and the class
teacher was at the front doing

390
00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,200
the work.
We were both working whilst the

391
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:02,560
kids were somewhere else
thinking there might be an

392
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,440
assembly and one of the teachers
came into the classroom and

393
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,080
spoke to Fran and was saying,
oh, this is just ridiculous, how

394
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:11,400
are we not getting paid for
this?

395
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,560
It's just unfair.
It's ridiculous what we have to

396
00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,760
go through this, this, this
profession, venting as you would

397
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,240
about the profession.
And she just looked at me after

398
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,600
and went, I didn't realise you
were sorry because she didn't

399
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,160
want to put me on.
Yeah, like, exactly.

400
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:26,960
Ready to get going.
And she was like, oh, I'm so

401
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:28,040
sorry.
And I was like, I want to hear

402
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:29,360
this stuff.
Yeah, this is good.

403
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,000
Like, yeah, please be real about
it.

404
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,000
I what?
Am I just going to wait until I

405
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,520
qualified to find out that this
is the case?

406
00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:35,960
Like, it's good for me to hear
this stuff.

407
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,200
So I always remember that
because she was like, horrified.

408
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:39,720
And I was like, oh, please don't
be here.

409
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,240
And then the second thing was
very quickly, my class teacher

410
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,000
had to have the day off for some
reason.

411
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,320
And obviously the school would
just like, come on, we do have a

412
00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,200
student.
But bearing in mind, this is

413
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:54,280
like my second week of being in
a school and I think I taught a

414
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,680
starter for 10 minutes and they
were like, would you mind

415
00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,520
teaching for the day?
And I was like, well, I'm not

416
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,240
going to say no.
I'd be terrified, Joey.

417
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,360
I'm not going to say no though.
Of course she's trying to be

418
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:04,920
like.
Exactly.

419
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,080
I'm going to throw myself into
it.

420
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,880
And do you know what?
I did it and I struggled.

421
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,000
By the afternoon I really
struggled and I was absolutely

422
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,240
knackered by the end of the day.
Maths went all right, English

423
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,560
was OK.
Afternoon really struggled, had

424
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,400
some bad behaviours in the
class, had children having

425
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,720
meltdowns, had to call the head
to come round and actually help.

426
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,880
It was a bit of a nightmare.
But do you know what it was good

427
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,600
to do?
Genuinely, genuinely for, for my

428
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,120
personality and me.
For other people, it might put

429
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,040
them off and they'll never.
Cut to anxiety.

430
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,000
But for me, actually, do you
know what?

431
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,480
I finished that and I thought
I'm only going to improve and

432
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,720
get better at this job and I got
through this day and it's fine.

433
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,480
I think that would take me over
the edge in this exact same

434
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,440
scenario.
At that point, I was so, so

435
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,480
nervous and anxious about you
even being in front of the kids.

436
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:51,480
Like that would have been like,
I would have been like, I need

437
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:52,520
to go home.
I can't.

438
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,200
I'm sorry, but I'm not prepared.
I cannot do that.

439
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:56,320
And that's fine.
What about you?

440
00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,720
Yeah, the only thing that I ever
told the story a few times, I

441
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,480
don't know if I've told in the
pod, but I like to reflect on it

442
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,000
because I think there's some
interesting points from it.

443
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:04,319
Right.
And ultimately it's it's kind of

444
00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:06,880
a story to do with understanding
how the important safeguarding

445
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,319
is really in schools on on one
of the first days I turned up

446
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:12,560
for my place when I was in a
year one class and I remember

447
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,319
standing in the classroom sort
of being like, oh God, I don't

448
00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:16,280
want to do like the teacher just
gone out of the room to go and

449
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:17,760
sort something.
I'm just standing there like a

450
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,599
lemon and an income.
A child from the playground that

451
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:23,480
had like early morning play.
So school was just about to

452
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,880
start and two adults brought
brought this little girl in and

453
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:29,080
she'd like fall over and
herself.

454
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:30,880
She was crying a little bit and
they were just going to sit her

455
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,920
in the little in this like shed
area a bit right by where they

456
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:34,880
were.
So they were just going to the

457
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:36,080
other side of the door standing
there.

458
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,280
She was just be sat down right
next to them, but they but she

459
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,480
was inside and they went to
leave her to, to be sad.

460
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,120
Like you'll be all right.
I'm just going to stand here so

461
00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:45,080
I can keep my eyes on the
playground and be outside.

462
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,680
And then they looked up and saw
me and I saw them visibly change

463
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,120
their mind in that moment,
probably thinking, Oh, actually,

464
00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:54,240
there's a man that I don't
recognise over there.

465
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,840
I'm not, I'm now not going to
leave this child alone.

466
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,440
And in the moment, I remember
feeling really offended.

467
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,440
I was thinking, oh, typical.
Oh, just because I'm a bloke,

468
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,760
you think I can't be around?
You think I can't be around

469
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:05,600
children?
How typical.

470
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,400
What a stereotype.
And I remember in my head being

471
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,640
really offended, the idea that,
oh, right, you don't think she's

472
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:10,640
safe around me because I'm a
man.

473
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:12,960
Yeah, but in.
Register because you're a

474
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:14,120
stranger.
Yeah, I know.

475
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,360
I look back now and I'm like,
no, I'm just an unknown person

476
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:19,560
standing in the classroom.
Also, I do think that's odd,

477
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,680
like when I actually when I
listen to the detail of that

478
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,160
story because they're either
leaving her alone or then.

479
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:25,560
I know.
I think they shouldn't have been

480
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:26,920
doing that.
Right, because I was gonna say

481
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,000
like Eva, you know, if the
problem is, oh, we can't leave

482
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,280
you alone with that person.
What, so you can leave them

483
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,640
alone when there's no one there?
That's also bad.

484
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,160
I.
I think they were in that grey

485
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:37,840
area of they justified
themselves.

486
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,960
Maybe it was just going to stand
here at the door anyway.

487
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:41,760
But then ball.
But technically it might even be

488
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,800
that they might be thinking, oh,
someone there that might call

489
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:45,320
out the fact that I probably
shouldn't be doing this.

490
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:46,960
Exactly so.
But in the moment, I absolutely

491
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:48,120
just thought it was a personal
attack.

492
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:49,520
And they were like, Oh no,
there's a man over there.

493
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,240
He's probably a weirdo because
he's a man in school.

494
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,720
Do you very much playing up that
with a child?

495
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:56,640
Take people maybe thinking that,
wouldn't you?

496
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:58,280
I agree for the sake of keeping
them safe.

497
00:18:58,280 --> 00:18:59,320
Do you know what I mean?
Like you just.

498
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,040
Say, oh, your feelings are hurt.
Yeah, I just don't know who you

499
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:02,840
are, mate.
Like, I'm sorry, I don't think

500
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:04,600
this is prejudicial, whoever the
word might be.

501
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,640
Yeah, I don't know who you are,
so I'm just gonna make sure that

502
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,480
I'm with this child.
And by the way.

503
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:12,240
You basically called their bluff
a bit there because they were

504
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:13,560
going to try and get away with.
I think so.

505
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,600
Yeah.
So on, on, on reflection over

506
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,600
the years, I think there was a
lot more little avenues to that

507
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:18,880
story that I didn't consider at
the time.

508
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,400
And it it, you know, one, it
talks about it, it's a lesson

509
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,640
about safeguarding #2 it's a
lesson about like, not maybe not

510
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,320
taking everything at face value.
There might be deeper meaning

511
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:26,920
there.
And you think all that sort of

512
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,840
stuff came from it and
reflection and how also just

513
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:30,840
over time you do just learn more
and you have a better

514
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,800
understanding of nuances of how
schools work, all those.

515
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,320
Things it's it's it is, it is
important because you don't have

516
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,120
that when you start teaching.
And I don't think you can like

517
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:41,920
we can't make everyone
understand that straight away.

518
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,440
But I think if we can just say
to people like don't necessarily

519
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,360
assume the buzz.
Yeah, yeah, it could just be

520
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:49,120
that.
Which one?

521
00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:51,320
One other thing.
Last thing I remember is I was

522
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,640
in Year 6 after Christmas in my
second placement, towards the

523
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,960
end of the school year, they
went on residential trip and me

524
00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,600
and the other student teacher
who were both in Year 6 at the

525
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,560
time, we planned and did the
events for the children who were

526
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:04,480
staying.
I did the exact same.

527
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,040
Thing.
So it's Rainforest Week and we

528
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:07,400
did all rainforest stuff.
We did tie dye.

529
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,120
It was, it was me and someone
called Mia.

530
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,120
We both did it together.
We both planned it.

531
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:12,800
And we had like 15 kids for the
week.

532
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:14,920
And again, do you know,
cynically you might look at it

533
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:16,600
and think, oh, they're just
getting you to plan it.

534
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,600
It's easy for them.
So well, yeah, you are a student

535
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,400
and you do.
That's part of the job as well,

536
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:21,560
learning that.
And do you know what?

537
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,800
It was so fun.
And we kind of had the freedom

538
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,720
to be like, well, it's
Rainforest week, plan whatever

539
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,200
you want.
And that like invigorated me,

540
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:30,720
inspired me.
We had so much fun.

541
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,000
It was nice and and like, it was
a good thing.

542
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,360
And I don't think I want to say
to people now, like who are

543
00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:37,400
going through this phase of
being a student teacher, like

544
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,680
don't just think extra work is
always bad.

545
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,040
Like that was extra work.
But it was the best way ever.

546
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,520
And I really enjoyed it and it
helped me, again, just fostering

547
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,480
that experience of understanding
the line between what's fun,

548
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,200
what's helpful, having bonds
with the children, how it just

549
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:53,480
made everything more clear to
me.

550
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,080
And I really enjoyed it and the
kids loved it.

551
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:55,840
It was so.
Fun.

552
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:56,960
Yeah, yeah, definitely,
definitely.

553
00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,840
It's fun enough.
I did in my second place when

554
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,440
year 6 also went in residential
and I kept back the other kids

555
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,320
and we did some sort of project
based thing and it was really

556
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:04,920
fun.
So that's quite funny how we had

557
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:05,920
the same sort of experience
there.

558
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:07,640
Probably very common.
Yeah, I imagine so.

559
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,560
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.
So get your first job.

560
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,760
I thought that's a big one.
What was that experience like

561
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,400
for you going from placement to
actually you're employed now?

562
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,160
So we had different journeys,
didn't we?

563
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,280
Because in PGCA the way it works
is you do have two placement

564
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,120
schools that you go to.
Yeah, but for the vast majority

565
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:26,800
of the time you're in one
school, right?

566
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,000
So you have like a six or seven
week placement I think before

567
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,840
Christmas and then you had
another like 8 or 9 week

568
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,840
placement after Christmas
towards the end of the year,

569
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,920
both in the same school.
For me that was in a local

570
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:38,880
Junior School.
And then you have an alternate

571
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,760
placement in the middle between
Christmas and Easter, I think,

572
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:43,160
where it was literally I think
it was.

573
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,080
Just one or two weeks.
Two weeks and the idea is it's

574
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:47,640
supposed to be like in a
different key stage.

575
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,160
So I went to an Infant School
for a couple of weeks in another

576
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,120
local area and it that's
cemented to me that I did want

577
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:57,480
to stay in a Junior School or
for higher up the kids.

578
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,360
But yeah, in terms of getting a
job in in the school where my

579
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:04,320
main placement was a cut, a few
jobs came up.

580
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,680
I think 2 jobs came up and I
obviously applied for one and

581
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,400
got 1.
So for me, the whole process of

582
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,840
finding a job and we'll go on to
moving schools later, but in

583
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,560
general, I've never really
genuinely had to go through the

584
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,720
the rigmarole of, you know,
going on websites, finding jobs,

585
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,120
applying and putting CVS out
there.

586
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,600
I did it a bit in my PTC year
because I wasn't sure what was

587
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,400
happening.
But as soon as that job became

588
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,840
available and I said I wanted
that job, it was quite an

589
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,600
informal process of, OK, well,
yeah, sure.

590
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:36,160
Just apply, write this down,
we'll have a interview, just a

591
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,400
chat to make sure we're not.
But we know you really well.

592
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,080
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So for me it was quite seamless

593
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,800
and not an issue at all.
Probably the best version

594
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,480
genuinely of had to get a job
but used very.

595
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,280
Different was quite funny
because it was a good lesson and

596
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:49,560
it's typical me.
You're gonna laugh.

597
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,320
It's good against my arrogance
and my ego here got the best of

598
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,880
me in my placement school, exact
same situation.

599
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,200
Job came up.
I was like brilliant.

600
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,760
I've had a great two placements.
Everyone, I'm pally of everyone

601
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,040
here.
It's going it's genuinely just

602
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,120
going really well, getting good
gradings.

603
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:04,520
All the observations like it's a
no brainer of why with of course

604
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,360
they're going to employ me.
Of course they are new head came

605
00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:10,120
in during that.
I had no interaction with this

606
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:11,360
head by the way, before this
point.

607
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:13,560
So she had no reason to have any
bias towards me.

608
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,800
Like as far as I'm concerned,
I'm just a random student in the

609
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,360
school that she's not even seen
or heard of, right.

610
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,560
And so I rocked up to this
interview thinking, oh, I got

611
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:21,320
it.
I got this in the bag.

612
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,960
Did not prepare enough remotely
taught this one lesson where it

613
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,120
was a maths lesson.
I was like easy for me maths.

614
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,280
They had projectors at the
school I've been taught doing

615
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,880
all my lessons on projectors.
Prepared my whole lesson for

616
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,520
this projector lesson.
Went into the class and I was

617
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:35,760
teaching no projector.
Didn't work.

618
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,160
I had to adapt on the spot.
Didn't know how to do that yet.

619
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,160
My skill set was not there.
Taught the worst lesson

620
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:41,880
possible.
Went to the interview.

621
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,120
I was already rattled by this
point.

622
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,560
Did the interview, clearly
didn't prepare enough, didn't

623
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,160
answer a few of the questions
maybe as well as I could.

624
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,240
I could see that visibly she
just was not impressed already.

625
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,760
That's rattling even more.
Couldn't have flunked it harder

626
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,560
if I tried.
And then in her in her.

627
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,160
I think I even spelt her name
wrong in like in like a letter

628
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,680
like I put in in the 1st place,
like it was like spelt with an

629
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:02,640
IE, but I put it with an I or
something like that.

630
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,440
Like and just the literal first
thing was firstly, you know,

631
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,800
it's probably important to just
get the name right of the person

632
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,520
who said that to me.
So completely embarrassed me

633
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,560
like rightfully genuinely.
So it was just stupid of me.

634
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:12,840
I wasn't going to hire you after
that.

635
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,720
They weren't going to hire that.
And then over at that point I

636
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:15,960
really knew.
And then it then it just said

637
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,200
that you've rejected you.
This was at the beginning of my

638
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,480
second placement.
So I then had to do the rest.

639
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,640
I had like 8 more weeks of
working at this school knowing

640
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,960
they don't want to employ me.
It very it felt really

641
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,040
embarrassing.
How do you deal with that?

642
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,520
I was embarrassed, I was
embarrassed at 1st and I and I

643
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,000
just sort of had I just had to
you know what I'm like, I just

644
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,160
had to make everything a bit of
Vanter, a bit of joke, even

645
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,160
though I was mortified inside
and the the class teacher I was

646
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,320
with was really nice about it.
You know, he he was just making

647
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:40,640
me call.
He's like, mate, this is just

648
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:41,960
what it is.
You know, it doesn't matter.

649
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,280
You just sort of it's like a
puzzle.

650
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,440
You're just not the right fit
for it doesn't mean you're a bad

651
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:46,600
teacher.
It's just you messed up your

652
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:47,600
interview.
You are a bad teacher.

653
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,440
You're a good, you're a good
teacher, but you didn't put

654
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,240
enough into your interview.
Just face it, it, it didn't know

655
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:52,920
quite how you wanted.
You're not you're not what this

656
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:54,080
what she wants right now to
make.

657
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:55,720
She wants something, something
to bring something to the table.

658
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:56,880
It did.
It was useful to me.

659
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,360
So then I was like, cool, I'll
apply it.

660
00:24:58,360 --> 00:25:00,480
The the alternate placement
school that I went to instead,

661
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,960
they've got a job as well.
Went in there, taught another

662
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,720
horrendous lesson.
I way too ambitious.

663
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,680
I was like, I'll show them all
this new stuff I know about bar

664
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,560
modelling, right?
Went in and tried to teach a bar

665
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,480
modelling lesson to a bunch of
year fives who've never seen bar

666
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,280
modelling in a 15 minute lesson.
Stupidest decision I could have

667
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,040
ever made because obviously they
spent the whole time being like

668
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:16,480
what the hell is?
This you just added cognitive.

669
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,560
Load initially right and there's
me thinking like wow them with

670
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,440
this awesome Singapore math
style thing.

671
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,320
Couldn't careless, couldn't
careless went awful.

672
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,080
Didn't get the job there.
I was like cool, brilliant.

673
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,160
So the two places where I've
worked in don't want to hire me.

674
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:28,840
I was really then I was
completely deflated by this

675
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,720
point.
And then luckily for me that a

676
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,560
head teacher kind of at the
school ended up working in the

677
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,280
same 1 you got a job in.
The head teacher's daughter was

678
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,920
in my class, in my placement
class and had the daughter

679
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:42,920
luckily gone home and said, oh,
he's really nice as a teacher.

680
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,360
So that was enough for the head
teacher to be like, oh, OK, I'm

681
00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:47,240
interested.
Are you looking for jobs still?

682
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,200
And if you are, we'll do an
observation, but I'll just come

683
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:51,120
to you.
I was like perfect.

684
00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:53,040
Because I know this class.
That's clearly what's been

685
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,440
messing me up here.
We go to all the classes

686
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,600
thinking I know what I'm doing
and she came to me, observed me,

687
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:58,560
was like, yeah, cool, that'll
do.

688
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,200
Gave me a job.
And I was like, thank God for

689
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:02,880
that because I was starting to
get to the point where I was

690
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,720
like, cool, so apparently I'm
rubbish at this and I'm not

691
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,600
going to make it and it's
getting a bit late now and I'm

692
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:08,920
not going to get a job for
September.

693
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,160
It's quite, quite common parents
that I've been pop a lot of

694
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:12,960
people listening who might have
had a similar experience.

695
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,880
But a lot of the time in general
that something does pop up.

696
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,240
Yeah, it does pop up and it's.
And it happens and it not by

697
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,640
confidence it did.
But it didn't take longer to

698
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,880
come back like that ego for you
that ego and arrogance was there

699
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,080
again set the second second she
walked out the room was like all

700
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:28,880
employee.
I was like yeah, see easy told

701
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:29,960
you went straight to that head
teacher.

702
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,480
That placement said I've been
employed by this other school

703
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:32,040
actually.
Thank you.

704
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,080
Goodbye.
So we both got a job.

705
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,800
You're one year ahead of me.
So obviously our NQT years back

706
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,360
when we did NQT was just one
year.

707
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,440
They obviously didn't overlap.
You were doing NQT for a year.

708
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,280
Well your NQT year was whilst I
was training, my NQT year was

709
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:47,720
just then.
You were just a teacher then at

710
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,080
that point.
But in general, how did you find

711
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,720
those first, those first year?
I'd say first year or two or

712
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,800
three even at the start of your
career, what was it like in

713
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,920
terms of what you expected of
the job?

714
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,240
How did you handle the jump from
training to actually being a

715
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:06,400
teacher?
What were the biggest

716
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,120
differences or challenges do you
think you faced?

717
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,280
Biggest difference and challenge
for me was that just like the

718
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,480
support network, even though
it's still there, it's obviously

719
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,240
extremely heavy when you're
training going to, there's no

720
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,360
longer another class teacher in
there that you can always fall

721
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:19,480
back on.
It's now your class.

722
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,440
That for me was terrifying.
My first few weeks, probably

723
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,120
months actually, my first few
months in my AM QT year, I

724
00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:27,200
really was like, I was anxious
every day.

725
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,040
Like I had big old sweat patches
every day.

726
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,680
Not just because it was hard,
because I was genuinely just

727
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,720
like, you know, when you're just
nervous, your body just sweat

728
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,280
like that sort of level of
anxious.

729
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:36,960
You got 32 kids there.
Exactly right.

730
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:38,880
And I didn't have another class
teacher in the room so I could

731
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:40,000
just be like, I don't know what
I'm doing.

732
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,720
I just had to basically wing it
when I didn't know what I was

733
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,160
doing until I understood what I
was doing.

734
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,160
Important to say to people,
you're going to wing it in the

735
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,680
fresh, you are going to wing it.
No one thinks that they've

736
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,000
nailed it or has nailed it in
the first couple of years.

737
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,640
Accept it and don't beat
yourself up about it.

738
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,240
Absolutely, yeah.
And I'm glad I didn't because I

739
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,720
didn't beat myself up about it
because I knew that was true.

740
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,200
And you know what, by the sort
of half over that first year, I

741
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:03,840
felt great.
And then by my second year

742
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,040
teaching, I was, I felt awesome.
I loved this job.

743
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,960
I was already there.
I was fully absorbed in that job

744
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,080
by then.
I think it only took me that

745
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,560
sort of first year to feel like
I found my feet.

746
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:12,720
I.
Was going to say that.

747
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,760
At what point did you start
feeling more confident?

748
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:20,880
Because I think I tricked myself
into it by just pretending I was

749
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,680
confident.
Yeah, like I really struggled to

750
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,520
actually think when I actually
became fully confident.

751
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,880
So I think about the end of my
career, I'm so confident in the

752
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,600
job that I was doing that I felt
like I could walk into any room

753
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,200
and just deliver a good lesson,
whether I had all the resources

754
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:35,400
or not.
Like I got to that point.

755
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,320
And at the start of my career, I
felt like everything had to be

756
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,000
planned meticulously and I had
to make everything was perfect.

757
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,960
Clearly, somewhere in that
journey, I became past the point

758
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,960
of just, like, full confidence.
But I think that actually

759
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,160
happened much later than I
convinced myself, Right?

760
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,120
Yeah.
I felt probably more confident

761
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,760
than I should have been much
earlier on in my career because

762
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,920
I always got nice feedback,
always got good praise, always

763
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,880
got, you know, it felt like, oh,
I'm really good at what I'm

764
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,000
doing.
I don't know how useful it was

765
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,240
necessarily.
Did it paper over cracks for

766
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,400
example where I needed to work
on stuff a bit quicker.

767
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,960
I think there was a good balance
there and you, you have to

768
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,400
vacancy make it as the point.
Definitely.

769
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:11,800
And it took its time, it took
its time.

770
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,360
So we've we've, if listeners of
this podcast will know, we talk

771
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,200
about it all the time that we
obviously love maths and we've

772
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,720
spent the vast majority of our
careers as maths leaders or at

773
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,760
least as part of the maths
leadership if there's if it's

774
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,840
been a team or whatever.
So do you want to just give like

775
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:30,200
a little just insight into your
journey from just being purely

776
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,640
classroom teacher into the world
of subject leadership?

777
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,320
Well, I don't know how it works
now, but back then we had like

778
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,600
hubs in our school because we're
quite a large school and I think

779
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:38,280
that's.
Probably why?

780
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:39,560
Because it was a big.
School, yeah, it was a large

781
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,120
school.
So we had hubs where you would

782
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,960
have a maths lead, you'd have an
English lead, but you'd have a

783
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,400
hub where, Oh, I'm on the maths
hub in terms of you go to

784
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,200
meetings with the maths lead and
you as a team coordinate your

785
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:52,760
plans for for maths as a
subject.

786
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,320
So I was on the maths hub pretty
much straight away.

787
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:57,720
I think our maths hub is called
Logic.

788
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:58,760
LED.
It was called logic.

789
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,360
LED because we did an escape
room.

790
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,160
We called ourselves logic LED.
Yes, it was.

791
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,600
It was all like very, very
corporate like funny names.

792
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,600
Logic LED.
And in our first year, I think

793
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,880
when I was teaching, when I was
training, I think I was went to

794
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,840
a few meetings.
And you weren't maths lead at

795
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,040
that point.
But then you became maths lead,

796
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:18,720
didn't you?
And but I was always on the

797
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,440
logic LED like maths hub team.
So I was always felt like I was

798
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,400
involved in decision making.
But obviously there's no,

799
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,680
there's no payment at all.
And we just met every now and

800
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,920
then and I'd get the odd job and
it'd be like, we've got 6 things

801
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,960
to do guys, all obviously most
of them because I'm the, I'm the

802
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:32,280
leader of the subject and that's
fine.

803
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,160
But if you could just do that or
you could just do that or you

804
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:35,440
could run a competition for the
school.

805
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,960
I was involved very, very
quickly in the running of a

806
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:43,400
subject in that regard.
And then when I went to leave

807
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,840
that school, and we'll talk a
bit more detail about moving

808
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,920
schools in a second.
Long story short though, it was

809
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:50,760
offered as a carrot almost to
stay.

810
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,400
You can become math lead, you
can, you can become math lead

811
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,600
here and you can do this.
But it wasn't until I actually

812
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,560
did move school and went to the
school that we ended up with the

813
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,120
school we finished that where
again, I moved there.

814
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,160
I wasn't immediately leader of
maths because we had someone who

815
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,680
led maths in the school.
Things got jigged around a bit

816
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,760
and then we became maths leads.
Both of us joined together,

817
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,040
actually just leading it, not
hub, just both joint maths

818
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,440
leads.
And that's been my journey.

819
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,320
So I feel like I've always been
involved somehow and most people

820
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,320
going through their journey will
be involved somehow in the

821
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:24,800
leading of a subject.
Yeah, exactly.

822
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,840
So I don't think it's uncommon
to have that, but I also think

823
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,600
it is a good thing.
I really do think it is a good

824
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,320
thing to be involved at that
level and have wider school

825
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,400
impact because I could have an
impact on maths, not just in my

826
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,360
classroom, not even just in my
year group, but across the

827
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,520
school through what we're doing.
And I think that's a nice way of

828
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,280
doing it where you can lower the
burden for everyone because

829
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,640
maybe it's one meeting every big
term, just an hour every big

830
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:48,880
term.
You part of the mass hub and

831
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,160
you've got one job where you
just run a competition, run a

832
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,000
competition for the school.
It it doesn't add hours and

833
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,000
hours to your workload, but
you're involved in the meetings,

834
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,960
you can hear what's going on.
And if you have ambitions to

835
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,240
move into leadership.
I think that was a really good

836
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,200
way to actually see the the nuts
and bolts of what goes on and

837
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,920
understand that even the leader
of this massive, although

838
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,360
they're fantastic teaching large
the normal person and I could

839
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,480
probably do that job well.
That's basically what what

840
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:11,800
happened to me.
Like so in my first year of

841
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,720
teaching, there was someone else
who led the logic LED maths hub

842
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,480
and I was put into the maths hub
because I made it very clear

843
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,120
that I was, that was my passion.
And then in that first year of

844
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,000
getting that little bit of
dripped experience, it did allow

845
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,480
me in my second year of teaching
to become the leader of that, of

846
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,000
that maths hub.
And, and probably in a lot of

847
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,120
situations, I don't think if
you're in your second year of

848
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,120
teaching, you probably wouldn't
be the leader of maybe one of

849
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,600
the core subjects genuinely.
But, but given, I think they did

850
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,360
a really good job of giving that
experience, like you said, by

851
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,960
being part of the team, they
allowed me to very quickly get

852
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:38,720
into the role of, OK, cool, I'm
going to lead the whole subject

853
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:39,920
then.
Did you get TLR?

854
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:41,240
Yeah, I did.
Yeah, I did.

855
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:42,960
Yeah.
I've actually always had ATLR

856
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,400
for leading mouse and like you,
I no, that's that's not true.

857
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,400
I was going to say I wouldn't
have done it without TLR.

858
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,080
I would have done earlier on
because I just wouldn't have

859
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:51,240
thought anything.
That's why I asked, because I

860
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,160
knew you would have.
Now nowadays I'd be like, no,

861
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:54,120
absolutely not.
I'm not doing that.

862
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,080
It's ridiculous.
But no, I did get a very the

863
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:58,800
smallest amount you can get on a
TLR three.

864
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,920
I got that to do, to do, to lead
maths.

865
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,920
So can I ask something about
when you LED maths then the

866
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,720
people listening at whatever
point in the career they're at,

867
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,560
maybe they're already middle
leaders or they're thinking of

868
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,760
becoming a middle leader.
We did a whole episode on this

869
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,040
Middle leadership.
Worth it, It's mid.

870
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,960
Worth a listen for you guys, but
I'm, I'm looking now as, as

871
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,640
you're, you're now at the point
in your career where you, you've

872
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,560
gone past the initial, you know,
push back from interviews and

873
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:20,760
thinking like you might not be
good enough.

874
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:22,960
You've got your job, your
confidence is built back up

875
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:23,920
again.
You feel like you're in your

876
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,360
zone now.
You're lead, you're literally

877
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,080
leading maths after gaining
experience.

878
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,000
Did you find at that point that
you you felt that you hit a bit

879
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,600
of a wall in, in terms of two
things, really one thing of how

880
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,240
do you keep progressing from
there without potentially going

881
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,000
into leadership and losing time
out of your class?

882
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,080
But also how did you deal with
as a leader, dictating to other

883
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,800
people to do jobs where you
know, they're not getting time

884
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,040
or money to do so?
Yeah.

885
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,480
Did you feel like you were
stepping your toe into that?

886
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,280
Oh, he doesn't know.
He doesn't understand.

887
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:54,760
They're just in leadership.
They're out of the classroom.

888
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,080
You don't understand anything
anymore.

889
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:57,600
Or did you really struggle with
that?

890
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,920
I, I really struggled with the
idea that I don't have this

891
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,760
answer your question properly,
but I really struggled with the

892
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,160
idea that I was getting paid
ATLR to be mouse and then was

893
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:07,520
also asking other people to do
stuff.

894
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,679
That's what I mean.
So I, so I basically, I as much

895
00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:12,080
as I could, I didn't, I mean,
you probably remember, I just, I

896
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,159
took the burden on as much as I
possibly could and I spent so

897
00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:16,960
much time doing because I was
passionate as well and I was

898
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:18,120
genuine.
I probably would have done it

899
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,760
anyway.
Like I was like itching to get

900
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,440
into that role because I was
like, Oh my God, I want to make

901
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,440
these changes.
All this new pedagogy I've been

902
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,120
learning about mouse and all
this new Singaporean approach

903
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,719
stuff and this mouse mastery,
which is brand new.

904
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,760
It's all coming out, all this
White Rose stuff that was just

905
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,520
coming out.
Then it, it was all, it was all

906
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,360
fantastic and new and I was
dying to spread this across the

907
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:37,480
school.
But yeah, I very much felt

908
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,679
awkward of the idea of I still
felt like an imposter at the end

909
00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:40,679
of the day.
I was a young, probably the

910
00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:42,560
youngest member of that team
other than you.

911
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,639
And so I was a bit like 10 of
these teachers that have been

912
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:47,480
doing for 25 years on how to
teach maths.

913
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,520
Like, it is a bit awkward, but
also I'm super passionate and

914
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,239
I'm going to do it anyway.
I've imagined it did, like you

915
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,520
said in the last episode, it
probably rubbed them up, rubbed

916
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,320
them up the wrong way sometimes
of like, who's this guy?

917
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,440
He's been teaching for one year,
and he thinks he knows the best.

918
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:00,560
Like, we've seen this all before
this.

919
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,520
This was here 20 years ago, pal.
Yeah, we know this works.

920
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,760
It's great.
Adding to that, the issue is if

921
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,840
you're then dictating them to do
jobs and stuff, I can understand

922
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,840
how most people who get into
that middle leadership position

923
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,480
think what is the point that all
I'm doing here is massively

924
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,320
increasing my workload or giving
more workload to other people

925
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,240
who aren't even compensated at
all for it.

926
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,600
It's just really awkward.
I think people really struggle

927
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:21,840
with that.
So I think it's interesting to

928
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,120
hear your point of view, like
how you dealt with leading a

929
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,560
subject because we both LED
subject, both LED core subjects,

930
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,800
both LED maths.
And for me personally, when you

931
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,800
get to that point of leading
maths in a school, my up there

932
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,680
as my top priorities was to not
burden my staff with extra

933
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,920
responsibility.
I felt like I always had to have

934
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,240
in the front of my head.
I'm the leader of math, Maths is

935
00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:42,960
the most important thing to me.
It's my job.

936
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,440
I'm the leader of maths, but I
can't forget that there's also a

937
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,600
leader of English.
And in between English is the

938
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,440
leader of writing, she's a
leader of reading.

939
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,960
There's a leader of PE, there's
a leader of geography, there's a

940
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,080
leader of history.
New Ofsted frameworks come out

941
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:55,440
and might get deep dived into
history.

942
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,800
The history leads really worried
and saying you need to do this,

943
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,000
you need to do that.
I remember as a teacher

944
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,840
thinking, what do you what I've
got, OK, now history's got A and

945
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,320
geography's got a change and
this got a change.

946
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,120
So as a leader, I felt that
burden of I need to make things

947
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:09,800
as easy as possible for my
staff.

948
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,520
And that, to be honest with you,
can lead to increased workload

949
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,040
for yourself.
Yeah, and that's tricky.

950
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,000
I didn't think that though at
the start, I just thought I was.

951
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,240
I fell into the trap of being
like, I've been given maths to

952
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:22,800
lead, therefore that is the most
important thing and everything

953
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,520
that I think we need to change
in maths is of highest priority.

954
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,760
And I absolutely put that burden
on our, on our staff 100%, which

955
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,560
is why we think people probably
were like, oh, on their eyes.

956
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:32,920
I didn't even think twice about
it.

957
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:34,080
I was like, well, I'm doing all
this time.

958
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,720
If anything, I'm still doing the
lion's share of stuff here.

959
00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:38,640
I'm just asking you guys to
implement this, these seven

960
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,160
things.
Yeah, yeah.

961
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:41,400
Really.
It's like what you implement.

962
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:42,880
You're asking staff to implement
7 things.

963
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,960
What you're talking about that,
of course, that's crazy burden

964
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:46,800
of workload and cognitive load
on them.

965
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,240
I just didn't understand that.
So I learned that the hard way.

966
00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:52,400
And then I definitely after
probably like 3 or 4 years.

967
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,760
So it took a long time.
I definitely then flip the other

968
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:55,880
way.
And when we were master leads, I

969
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,080
probably just got it from
absorbed this like attitude from

970
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,760
you, which was everything we do.
And you were really, really good

971
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,160
at this.
Everything we do, no matter how

972
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,640
passionate we are about changing
it, what impact is it actually

973
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,880
going to have on staff and is it
the right time to do it Exactly

974
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,120
in the in the global thing?
Like though, I remember before I

975
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,520
was like, we should make these
changes to math because current

976
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,280
because it's better for math
because it's better.

977
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,040
And that's the end of that.
And that was it, right?

978
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,760
And you were like, yeah, but we
are also literally rewriting our

979
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,120
entire afternoon curriculum
right now.

980
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:21,960
So let's not do this change yet.
Exactly.

981
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,120
And I remember being like, yeah,
but but it's better never mass.

982
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:25,920
But ultimately that was the
right choice.

983
00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:28,720
It was not, it was not a good
choice to put that workload

984
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:31,120
burden on those on the staff.
And unfortunately, not everyone

985
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:32,760
thinks like that.
And what ends up happening like

986
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,960
you, like you said earlier, is
you normally get the situation

987
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,280
of every single subject lead
thinks that, thinks that

988
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,360
subjects are the most important.
They're all making changes

989
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,280
simultaneously.
And then being like, oh, why is

990
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,200
no one doing this one thing?
I've asked them, it's because

991
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,040
they've also been asked one
thing by that guy, that guy,

992
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:46,920
that person, that person, that
person.

993
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:48,600
It's not one thing from their
from their perspective.

994
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,640
It's only one thing from your
perspective as a subject lead.

995
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:52,840
And you just have to, I think if
you're going to be a good leader

996
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,120
and that's something you want to
do in your career, you really

997
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,040
have to take into consideration
that holistic view.

998
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,720
I completely agree.
So we're both at the point in

999
00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:01,640
our careers where we're kind of
hitting our stride now.

1000
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,320
We've been in our school, we got
a job at the same school, we've

1001
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:05,480
been there for two or three
years.

1002
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,920
We need maths.
It sounds like it's all rosy.

1003
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:10,280
What made you want to move
school?

1004
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,160
Because if you look at the grand
scheme of things, I was a

1005
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,760
teacher for only two years and
you were a teacher for only

1006
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,280
three years before we decided
let's move schools.

1007
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,600
And it wasn't that we were
pushed, That wasn't that we were

1008
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,520
forced out.
We both decided we don't want to

1009
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:23,960
work in the school anymore.
Yeah.

1010
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:25,640
What?
What was the trigger for you?

1011
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,160
Like, what was it to do for the
job?

1012
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,360
Obviously you stayed in teaching
so it can't be sure what

1013
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,800
happened.
For me, I became more savvy to

1014
00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:36,040
teaching environments, workload
pressure, the way staff should

1015
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,080
or shouldn't be treated,
contracts, all the stuff we tell

1016
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,800
all of our listeners to like be
really be aware of.

1017
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,880
Now I became more aware of all
that stuff and came to the

1018
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:44,920
conclusion that the school I
worked was working was not

1019
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:46,960
really the environment or not
the leadership style that I that

1020
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,480
I appreciated or liked.
Even though I wasn't necessarily

1021
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,120
in the firing line myself.
I'd seen members of staff and

1022
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,240
colleagues who I cared about by
this point because they're

1023
00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:55,920
actually, they're more than
they're friends at this point.

1024
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:56,880
You spend so much time with
them.

1025
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,280
I'd seen them being mistreated
or treated differently or

1026
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,520
unfairly even to me.
And it's like, and I could have

1027
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,400
easily gone like, well, I did
the right, I did the right

1028
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,160
thing, so I'm fine.
I'm in the good book.

1029
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,080
So whatever turned a blind eye
to it.

1030
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,000
But I was like, actually, no,
they're not being treated

1031
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:10,600
nicely.
This is toxic.

1032
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,600
It was the first instance to me
of, oh, it's like toxic

1033
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,960
management or toxic leadership.
Like it's not kind what they're

1034
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,520
doing.
I saw staff get pushed out or

1035
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,520
pushed the brink of quitting
their jobs because they're so

1036
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,280
upset because they feel like
they've been harassed or bullied

1037
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:23,880
or whatever.
They felt like their experience

1038
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:24,840
wasn't nice.
Yeah.

1039
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:26,440
And I was like, oh cool, I don't
want to work for.

1040
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,640
You and it wasn't isolated, No,
it was 1 issue.

1041
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,240
You might think, well, that
person might be taking this the

1042
00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:33,040
wrong way.
It was repeated how many women

1043
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,520
of a certain age with huge
experience, who'd been at that

1044
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,080
school, that particular school
as well, for so long, ended

1045
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,080
their career crying every other
week, feeling that they were

1046
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:42,200
being pushed out because they
were.

1047
00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:43,440
Yeah, because, because they were
and.

1048
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,440
It's like, OK, there's only so
much that can happen when, you

1049
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,560
know, I look at that and I
think, well, that will be me one

1050
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,400
day.
You know, if you want to be

1051
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,160
selfish about this, if it's not
enough for you, that there are

1052
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:54,920
other people who you care about
who are being treated this way,

1053
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,440
If that's not enough for you, at
least think to yourself, well,

1054
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,840
there'll be one day where you're
the person who's that now, who's

1055
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:01,840
too expensive, who's too
experienced, it's too set in

1056
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:03,240
their ways.
It's too much of a problem.

1057
00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:05,080
To just have turnover again,
let's get a new.

1058
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,720
One so alongside that was pay as
well because it was an Academy

1059
00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:09,360
and a lot of schools are being
academies at the time.

1060
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,560
I just didn't really like the
pay structure and I was like the

1061
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:13,120
scope for me here has just been
paid for.

1062
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,640
The job I do is actually is just
worse because of the way the pay

1063
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,280
structure now worked and I was
like I'd rather just go work in

1064
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,040
a school that just pays people
fairly and properly.

1065
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,680
Let's be really clear on what
the pays, what happened, because

1066
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,320
if you think about the national
pay scales that are given as you

1067
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,760
can go to any union website and
get it, it's national pay scales

1068
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,160
and there's rungs through how
much you should earn at each

1069
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,800
stage of your career academies
to come in and do their own pay

1070
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:37,600
scales.
So what this Academy did was

1071
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,600
when it became an Academy, one
of the first things it did was

1072
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,560
add an extra rung between each
one.

1073
00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:45,920
It's like a halfway point.
And when you finished your NQT

1074
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,080
year, whether you were amazing
or not, you went up half a rung.

1075
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:51,840
And it was like, why?
Well, just because that's what

1076
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:52,880
we do here.
That's our policy.

1077
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,240
That's our policy.
It's, it's, that's it wherever

1078
00:40:55,240 --> 00:40:57,720
you go to this new imaginary
rung in between.

1079
00:40:58,000 --> 00:40:59,680
So you were two grand off
straight away.

1080
00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:01,120
You were two grand off where you
should have been.

1081
00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:03,360
If you were just in a locally
maintained school, a local

1082
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,320
authority school, you'd be two
grand better off.

1083
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,600
From then on it was down to
performance and the most you

1084
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,560
could jump is 2 points, bearing
in mind they've halved it.

1085
00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:14,240
So A2 point jump is just an old
normal jump.

1086
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:18,400
So where you would go to be, You
started on one as an NQT,

1087
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,080
finished your NQT year, you went
to 1.5, not 2.

1088
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,080
Finished your year after NQT,
you go to 2.5.

1089
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,000
Even if you've done the best
possible performance management

1090
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,600
that you could have done
whatsoever, you go to 2.5.

1091
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:33,840
So you're capped again, half
behind.

1092
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,920
Every single year you're losing
2 or 3 grand based on where you

1093
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:39,280
would have been.
If you're in a local school.

1094
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,600
It compounds.
People used to think I'm just

1095
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,560
missing out once, I'm just
missing out a couple of grand in

1096
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:44,960
the first year.
You missing out a couple of

1097
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,480
grand every single year and
that's every single teacher in

1098
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,640
the school.
So it was a huge cost saving

1099
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,320
exercise for the trust who were
taking so much money than they

1100
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,040
would have if they just followed
the national scales and it

1101
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:56,800
didn't sit right with.
Us.

1102
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,080
No, yeah, it just, it just
bothered me.

1103
00:41:58,320 --> 00:41:59,680
It bothers.
Me and that's why I left and

1104
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,800
that's why obviously the the the
teacher, the head teacher, after

1105
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,000
I had the discussion with them,
went to the governors and said

1106
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,000
oh, he left because of money He
wanted more money yeah, yeah.

1107
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,680
And that was the only reason to
be so like.

1108
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,280
Yeah, no problem.
It's funny that because it's

1109
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,080
weird, I don't think they
realised that we knew people on

1110
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,320
the Board of Governors who then
when the Board of Governors

1111
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,240
meeting finished, came to me and
said oh, it's weird they said

1112
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:20,040
that you left because of that.
They left because you're greedy

1113
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,040
and you wanted more money.
You didn't want to work even

1114
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:23,840
though you'd literally gone to
them and said, by the way, I

1115
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:25,600
don't I don't want to work here
because the working conditions

1116
00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:27,360
things aren't great and I don't
like this everything we've just.

1117
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,080
Explained the two hour exit
interview apparently was just

1118
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,520
two hours of me saying money
really slowly and I have a

1119
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,200
reason because why else would
you tell the government is that

1120
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:37,680
there's something inherent
reasons why it might.

1121
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,160
Be but you live and learn
genuinely.

1122
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,120
You never learn and you can't
tie everyone with the same

1123
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:43,880
brush.
Is that the right phrase?

1124
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,040
Yeah, 100% yeah.
And even I even look back at

1125
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,880
this like I've got I, this
sounds like a ridiculous thing

1126
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,800
to say right now because it
sounds like it probably.

1127
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,080
Oh, it's just bitter.
I actually don't really hold any

1128
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:54,800
resentment at all.
When we talk about these things.

1129
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,000
I say what happened.
Yeah.

1130
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,600
But I don't day-to-day think,
well, bloody hell, I left.

1131
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,080
It's just what happened.
That was my, that was my

1132
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,400
reaction to that.
I just got out of there because

1133
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,000
otherwise I'd be saying the same
thing I'm living now.

1134
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,280
So you've got control as well.
Like if you're in a school

1135
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,080
environment you don't want to be
in for whatever reason, yeah,

1136
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:11,600
go.
And I told them not because I

1137
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,000
was being a Dick.
I told them because I wanted

1138
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,640
them to understand what's
literally happening.

1139
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,160
Because if I was running an
establishment and people like us

1140
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,360
thought, well, I want to leave,
I'd want to know why?

1141
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:21,720
Because I want to keep on.
With them, Yeah, yeah.

1142
00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:23,640
Because then you get the balls
in their court.

1143
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,160
Then they can either think, oh
wow, I didn't, I didn't intend

1144
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:27,640
that for that to happen.
I'm going to change some things.

1145
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:29,560
Or is for them to go.
Yeah, OK.

1146
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:30,960
Yeah.
And in that case, I don't care.

1147
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:31,960
I don't care either way.
I'm leaving.

1148
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:33,920
I'm just letting you know if you
don't want this to continue to

1149
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:35,520
happen, this is what made me
make the decision.

1150
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:36,520
If you don't care about that,
then cool.

1151
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:37,560
That's up to you.
Thumbs up.

1152
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,120
See you later.
That, that was the frustrating

1153
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,480
thing for me was I had like a
literally 2 hour conversation

1154
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:43,840
and I had typed myself up for
it.

1155
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:45,560
So I said, I'm going to be
completely honest with you and

1156
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,480
explained all of the reasons
we've just outlined.

1157
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,440
And at the end of that two hour,
the thing that really kind of

1158
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,600
put me down a bit with the
point, which was when they said

1159
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:54,840
what if we offer you maths
leadership next year?

1160
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,640
And I was like and enlist people
listening now and I can't

1161
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,760
express enough how within that 2
hour period, I explained that

1162
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,160
one of the main reasons I want
to leave because I can't see me

1163
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:05,800
working up the ladder in this
school because I see what

1164
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:06,840
happens.
Yeah.

1165
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,200
And I know that if I become
maths lead, I've seen it happen

1166
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,040
where the time out to run maths
goes every single week.

1167
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:13,280
Oh, sorry.
Oh, just this week.

1168
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:14,320
We've got to get rid of that
cover.

1169
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:15,840
Oh yes, sorry, we just got to do
that.

1170
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,480
I've seen what happens
repeatedly as a pattern and

1171
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,160
nothing's you.
You're not suggesting anything

1172
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,320
will change.
So why on earth do you think

1173
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,680
that I'd want to now?
Oh, you've just offered me it.

1174
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,080
Forget everything I just said.
Let's do it.

1175
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,920
I, I, I felt like that's when I
kind of gave up at the end of

1176
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:32,680
the conversation.
And don't forget, you'd also,

1177
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:35,040
some of you tell me this, you'd
also seen the fact that other

1178
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,320
people had also been promised
similar things that that weren't

1179
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:38,120
delivered on.
Yeah.

1180
00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:40,440
They've been promised things to
stay and then not given that

1181
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:41,560
thing.
So you were like, I can't even

1182
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:42,120
trust.
This.

1183
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:43,640
Yeah.
And I said that to them, not

1184
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,400
even harshly.
I just said, look, I used the

1185
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,000
name.
I said, you said that to this

1186
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:49,200
person, and that happened.
Oh, yeah.

1187
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:50,720
But that was because of that.
I was like, yeah.

1188
00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:52,800
So I think what will happen is
you'll just have another reason

1189
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:54,920
that you can say because what,
like, like, you can have the

1190
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:56,800
best of intentions even.
You might even really mean what

1191
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:58,880
you're saying right now.
But I've seen the track record.

1192
00:44:58,880 --> 00:44:59,240
Yeah.
Yeah.

1193
00:44:59,240 --> 00:45:01,880
And the way stuff is run here.
And I don't want to be here

1194
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:03,520
anymore.
And I wasn't expecting them to

1195
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,360
turn around and say, oh, we'll
completely change it and you can

1196
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:06,840
stay.
I'm just another person.

1197
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:08,640
I'm a cog in the wheel.
But I thought it might be at

1198
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:10,120
least interesting for them to
hear.

1199
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,080
It sounds as if it kind of fell
on deaf ears.

1200
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,240
No, definitely.
I think you did ultimately, but

1201
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:15,960
that's up for them to decide,
isn't it?

1202
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,280
So let's move on because that's
that's, you know, I think we get

1203
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,280
the idea of that, of that school
and the fact that we moved.

1204
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,840
So once once you moved, did it
change your perspective of the

1205
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:25,120
job?
Because I imagine at that point,

1206
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,080
your perspective of the job,
your only experience of the job

1207
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:28,360
was it was actually a little bit
toxic.

1208
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,280
And I've seen people get pushed
out of this.

1209
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:31,840
I've had a negative enough
experience.

1210
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,120
I want to leave the school.
Did your perspective perspective

1211
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:35,960
on teaching and the job change
when you move to your new

1212
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,960
school?
I didn't think at that point

1213
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,120
teaching as a whole was broken
and would never work.

1214
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,040
So my perspective didn't change.
The reason I changed schools and

1215
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,040
didn't change careers because I
believed that there were

1216
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,800
different ways of doing it.
So, so honestly, my perspective

1217
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,080
did not change.
What it did was was confirm what

1218
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,600
I was thinking because what I
got when I moved to school, and

1219
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:55,440
this is the school I stayed in
for the rest of my career as a

1220
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,880
teacher, was the difference in
trust in my opinion.

1221
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,920
And I don't mean trust because
it's not a trust, not an Academy

1222
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:04,280
trust.
I mean, to a local authority

1223
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,680
school, whether that had
anything to do with it, whether

1224
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,120
I think there are loads of
really good trusts out there, by

1225
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:09,080
the way.
Let me just make that really

1226
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:09,520
clear.
Now.

1227
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,040
I think it's easier for trusts
to go down the route of toxicity

1228
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,040
and, and, and syphoning money,
etcetera.

1229
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,680
But yeah, what I found in my
school that I moved to, and I'd

1230
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,280
say this to anyone now who's in
their career thinking this

1231
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,280
school, I love teaching, but
this school man, is always to

1232
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,560
try something else because I
don't know about you.

1233
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:30,240
We both, we both ended up there.
The trust that I felt as a

1234
00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:33,120
professional was at first
disarming.

1235
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,280
I wanted to go to the head and
be like, oh, I've done this by

1236
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,160
the way.
And he'd be like, OK, I don't

1237
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:39,880
care.
Like in the nicest way possible.

1238
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,360
And the workload really, really,
really reduced.

1239
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,320
Because, you know, I, I vividly
remember being sat in a staff

1240
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,960
meeting once in like 1 of the
first staff meetings the first

1241
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,560
term and someone said, oh, for
marking, now we're going to do

1242
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,560
this instead of that.
And I remember thinking the both

1243
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,840
of the this and that were like
1/4 of what I was expected to do

1244
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:01,440
before.
I was like, are we?

1245
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:03,920
I don't have to.
OK, that's I was like, right,

1246
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,640
that's great.
And then like two or three

1247
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,440
people in the staff meeting were
like, no, come on.

1248
00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:09,600
That's just, it's going to take
an extra 10 minutes every day

1249
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:10,680
because it's just not
acceptable.

1250
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,560
And I was like, am I in the.
Is this the same?

1251
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:15,280
Yeah.
I'm like chomping at the bit for

1252
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:16,360
that to be OK.
Yeah, Yeah.

1253
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,120
And I was like, I've been
indoctrinated to think that you

1254
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:20,840
must do loads of stuff all of
the time, always.

1255
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:22,000
And it's the only way you can do
stuff.

1256
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,880
The the attitude changed.
It was about impact and it was

1257
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,080
and workload was taken into
account and well-being was taken

1258
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:28,640
into account.
And it just felt like I was

1259
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,560
surrounded by people who
actually really did care about

1260
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,120
the the teachers and, and
trusted the teachers.

1261
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:34,520
And that transformed it for me.
The.

1262
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:35,920
First school we worked at,
right?

1263
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:37,880
Just for comparison's sake as
well, look for that analogy.

1264
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,480
It was culture and normal,
right?

1265
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,960
That at 6:00 when the school
closed, all of the teachers were

1266
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:45,480
leaving with that box of
marking.

1267
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:47,200
I remember being that was like
the club.

1268
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:48,880
I remember, I remember like
thinking, oh, who I'm going to

1269
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:50,200
meet up with on the door on the
way out today.

1270
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,080
And it'd be like three other
teachers that are now my mates

1271
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,320
and we'd be walking out with at
least one of our boxes of

1272
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:56,440
marking of books at 6:00 that we
still haven't done for some

1273
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:57,880
reason.
And that was normal.

1274
00:47:57,880 --> 00:47:59,960
And I genuinely like I was
indoctrinated to thinking, oh,

1275
00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:01,840
that's just how it works.
That's just what teaching is.

1276
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,040
I'd take my marking home and
some days I'd take home three

1277
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,240
boxes of marking because for
somehow or some reason, between

1278
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,120
3:30 and 6:00 PMI didn't manage
to get any marking done.

1279
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:11,520
I was doing something.
I don't know what the hell I was

1280
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,120
doing.
Looking back, imagined a lot of

1281
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,040
it was probably just being
inefficient to be honest with.

1282
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:16,760
You.
Well, no but but some of it, but

1283
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:17,920
but still.
Yeah.

1284
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:19,880
But still, yeah, some of it was
just like, yeah, what?

1285
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,360
What?
This was meant doing to that

1286
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:22,680
situation.
Yeah, when I agree, when I went

1287
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:24,440
to this news, when I went to the
school we worked at most

1288
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:29,440
recently, the one we've left, I
was like, is this all they do?

1289
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:31,720
Not in a bad way.
No, not in a bad way.

1290
00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:34,440
I was like, because what they
all they do was actually

1291
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,400
probably more like a just a
normal workflow, which is still

1292
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,040
hilarious.
Over the years, I was like, we

1293
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:39,440
can decrease some of this.
Yeah.

1294
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,160
But at first I was like
comparatively I was like, Oh my

1295
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:43,920
God, yeah, I'm not going to be
until sick.

1296
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:45,920
No one left there like that.
School closed at half.

1297
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:47,680
Five, I was going to say that
school wasn't even open.

1298
00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:50,640
No, it was close to half five
and very rarely was a bunch of

1299
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:52,000
people were actually leaving at
half five.

1300
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:53,240
Yeah, it.
Was and how often?

1301
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,320
From what I've seen I I can tell
you now I'm not even

1302
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:58,800
exaggerating.
I know it's not nice to hear

1303
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,240
sometimes when you're so busy,
but I honestly didn't ever take

1304
00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:02,800
marking home.
No, no I didn't.

1305
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,120
Even I just didn't it wasn't a
thing.

1306
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,720
And and and my my attitude ended
up being if if I would have took

1307
00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:10,440
marking home.
I won't because it's just a line

1308
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:11,800
and I've done enough stuff.
Yeah.

1309
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:13,840
And that was also like, no one
really.

1310
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:15,920
I was like, yeah.
Obviously I only had one, one

1311
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,240
line, that one rule that changed
that in my head, which was I did

1312
00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:19,960
my big right marking.
So when they did independent

1313
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:21,320
rights, I didn't know.
And you know, to be honest, if

1314
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,240
you, I probably could have done
some at school, but I chose, I

1315
00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:27,080
was like, yeah, I would rather
sit at home and have an UN like

1316
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:29,600
completely protected time.
Like it's not no one's going to

1317
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,280
interrupt me or I can just do
this.

1318
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:32,840
So you probably went home early
sometimes.

1319
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:34,440
Almost definitely because.
You would have done it for

1320
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:35,520
another hour between 4:00 and
5:00.

1321
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,280
Exactly that.
But you went home at 4 knowing

1322
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,040
you're like, I'm just choosing.
Compounded that time of the

1323
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:40,720
weekend I'd be annoyed about
every single time still.

1324
00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:43,960
For God's sake, I'm a mildly
stupid big right, but that was

1325
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,040
the one thing I chose.
But I never, ever, ever, ever my

1326
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,840
whole time there took a single
book home to Mark.

1327
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:50,080
Other than those independent
rights.

1328
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:51,120
Never.
Not once.

1329
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:53,600
No, it's great.
And I just just wanted to just

1330
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,720
to spend a minute just talking
about, you know, that school and

1331
00:49:56,720 --> 00:50:02,400
how I'll be forever grateful
personally about how we kind of

1332
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,360
were able to do what we felt
like we needed to do.

1333
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,680
And more.
I think more pressing for me

1334
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:11,320
personally was I felt
comfortable enough to raise

1335
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:15,360
things that I forward issues and
not not be so worried that it's

1336
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,000
going to end up me being
targeted and putting on a

1337
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,160
support plan because I dared to
talk against establishment.

1338
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,120
How dare I?
It felt like it was.

1339
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:23,600
And you know, I probably took it
too fast sometimes.

1340
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:24,800
I've already raised stuff too
often.

1341
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,200
Maybe I probably was at some
point came across the wrong way.

1342
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,560
And I genuinely do apologise for
that.

1343
00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:33,480
But I think it's better for that
to happen sometimes than for a

1344
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,440
class, sorry, a staff team to
constantly think, well, I'm

1345
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:37,960
worried about this.
I think this is awful, but I

1346
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:39,080
can't say anything, can't
challenge it.

1347
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:42,320
It was it was just a room full
of normal people who understood

1348
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:43,840
life.
Exactly, And take it one step

1349
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:45,880
further, and I've realised this
more on reflection recently,

1350
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,480
given the fact we speak to a lot
more people now, including lots

1351
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:50,360
of other people kind of on
social media for various

1352
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:52,280
reasons.
I realise how lucky we were now,

1353
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,520
the fact that we started that
school, we're already with an

1354
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,280
established tutoring business
where some head genuinely would

1355
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,160
have been turned off by the fact
that we were just doing other

1356
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,160
stuff outside of education,
talking to other parents and

1357
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,120
kids, interacting with out of
their control.

1358
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:04,120
And they just wouldn't have
liked that.

1359
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:05,960
They were chill about that.
And then also we started a

1360
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:07,120
podcast when we still worked
there.

1361
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,360
They were chill about that.
Like they were nice people.

1362
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,640
They were normal nice people.
And they, if anything, praised

1363
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:13,880
us for that.
They were like, they would ask,

1364
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,000
oh, how's your podcast going on?
How's your tutoring business?

1365
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,720
Is it doing really well like
they, they would like actively

1366
00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:20,920
interested in it.
And I think I took that for

1367
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,000
granted having spoke to a lot of
people recently where I'm like,

1368
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,320
you know what, that we really,
really did just have a lovely, a

1369
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,160
lovely ride there.
And you see more and more on

1370
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,760
social media, like even big
presences on social media,

1371
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,520
they've literally spoken about
how Mr Firth on online, very

1372
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,200
funny, lots of the skits, he
does really good stuff and built

1373
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,320
up a huge following online.
And he did something recently

1374
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:43,040
about how he's not allowed to
film in school.

1375
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,120
And there's been a bunch of
other people, I think organised

1376
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:46,920
educator teaching Mrs F in
Scotland.

1377
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:48,720
They spoke about how they're not
allowed to film in school

1378
00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:50,120
anymore.
This is a thing that's there's

1379
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,400
lots of reasons, but I'm not
even literally going to get into

1380
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,600
that debate right now.
The fact of the matter is that

1381
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,840
we were in a school where it was
very much seen as absolutely

1382
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,640
acceptable that we can do stuff
outside of the classroom if we

1383
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,720
adhered to rules.
Obviously we never remotely did

1384
00:52:03,720 --> 00:52:05,560
anything when children were in
the building ever.

1385
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:07,000
Because I think that's, I just
think that's bad.

1386
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,200
Personally, I really don't, I
don't like that.

1387
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:13,560
But we followed strict rules and
they trusted us and we trusted

1388
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,360
them.
Like, I remember we started the

1389
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:16,440
podcast.
We didn't tell them we were

1390
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,960
starting it.
Yeah, people say, oh, there

1391
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,280
isn't that really bad practise.
I was like, do you know what?

1392
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:22,720
In a way.
But we've got that trust.

1393
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:25,040
And we didn't go over the line
and we knew, we knew that

1394
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:26,560
through the through the
relationship we made with them.

1395
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:29,280
And then we didn't hide it.
We said to him, oh, we got this,

1396
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,960
by the way, this like it was
more like this is happening.

1397
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:33,840
And they weren't, they weren't
saying they were just like, oh,

1398
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:35,120
that's OK.
They obviously wanted to make

1399
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:36,560
sure nothing bad was coming of
it.

1400
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:38,240
And they were like, well,
obviously don't mention it.

1401
00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:39,440
I was like, of course we're not
going to do that.

1402
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:41,840
But we had trust the only the
deputy head said to us was like,

1403
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:42,880
cool, can you teach me how to do
it?

1404
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:43,960
Because I want to start with my
son.

1405
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,240
Like he wants to make a podcast.
It was like, there's nothing bad

1406
00:52:46,240 --> 00:52:47,200
about this.
Yeah.

1407
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:48,440
But it could have been, you
know, some people would

1408
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:49,240
absolutely.
If they're not all.

1409
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:50,080
They've said it to us in the
past.

1410
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,400
And they said a message has
been, oh, if you get in trouble

1411
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,000
for saying that on your podcast
in school, for saying what

1412
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:56,600
they're saying, what?
Speaking the truth about the

1413
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,920
education system, what we're
talking about now, because they

1414
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,440
also think that we sit, we sit
around with the head teacher and

1415
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,720
deputy head literally saying how
much something sucks in the

1416
00:53:04,720 --> 00:53:07,000
education system and how it's
affecting all of us negatively.

1417
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:08,400
We can have that conversation
with them.

1418
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,080
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So no is.

1419
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:12,000
The answer?
They weren't very precious.

1420
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,000
Dylan, I feel like we should now
we've established, I think, that

1421
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:16,960
we had a really nice few years
at that school.

1422
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:19,120
But at the end of the day, we've
just sat here and said about how

1423
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,400
cushy we had to have the best
possible experience of teaching

1424
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:23,440
the loveliest school.
And yet we're sat here and we

1425
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:25,880
don't teach anymore.
Yeah, of what happened.

1426
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:27,040
I want to go to the end of that
journey.

1427
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:30,280
Yeah, because I, I, I actually
genuinely think that the fact I

1428
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,280
found that school where I don't
think, I don't think I could

1429
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,000
have, I could have moved to
another school and it'd be

1430
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,320
equally as fun and enjoyable and
the equal amount of trust.

1431
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,160
I, I genuinely don't think I
could have moved to another

1432
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,960
school and found more trust and
more freedom to do things.

1433
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:44,920
I don't think that exists.
We had the best situation.

1434
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:46,120
Already, I think we literally
did.

1435
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,400
And the fact that I still didn't
feel like I wanted to continue

1436
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,400
doing the job at that point, I
could safely say it's a job

1437
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,240
thing at the end of at the end
of the time, my first school, it

1438
00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:57,680
wasn't a job thing.
I want to try somewhere else.

1439
00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:59,120
I love teachers.
So I don't want to carry on

1440
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,040
because I still felt that way
here.

1441
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:03,040
I was like, do you know what?
It's a job thing clearly.

1442
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,400
And I could just stay in this
job forever and I could be in

1443
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,400
the best school possible.
And it's just, it's just still

1444
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,960
not.
It's just too much stuff that I

1445
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,160
still think, like you said, I
still think it's just a

1446
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:13,480
nonsense.
And it's nothing to do with the

1447
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:14,760
leadership.
It's nothing to do with the

1448
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:15,800
people who are working in the
building.

1449
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:18,360
It's just the literal very
nature of the job, the amount of

1450
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,000
funding you get to to execute
the job, letting children down

1451
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,880
through no fault of your own
because they're not getting the

1452
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:27,640
support they need.
I couldn't do that anymore.

1453
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,640
Do you feel like there was a
final straw moment or was it

1454
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,760
just a slow building up of those
those understandings of the

1455
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:37,040
systemic, systemic failures that
made you eventually just climax

1456
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:39,240
to a point where you're like,
I've tipped over this line

1457
00:54:39,240 --> 00:54:41,000
that's in my head now, and now I
just don't think I should do it.

1458
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,040
Or was there a moment you can
think that thing happened and

1459
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:45,440
that was it for me?
I'm done.

1460
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,720
I, I don't have a like an exact
moment.

1461
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,320
I just don't like it just built
up over time because I spoke up

1462
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:53,560
now.
We went part time.

1463
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:55,680
There's a big thing in our story
I've not mentioned here, like we

1464
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:57,680
went part time.
I was very lucky enough to go

1465
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,600
and who wants 2 millionaire?
I won a chunk of money and I

1466
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:01,480
thought to myself, do you know
what?

1467
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:02,920
We've got our tutoring business
on the side.

1468
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:04,040
We're making a bit of money
there.

1469
00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:06,680
There's a bit of leeway.
We didn't have children at that

1470
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,920
point, you know, I mean, it was
like, if any, any time is now to

1471
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:11,680
free up some more time to try
some other stuff.

1472
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:15,400
And that helped us snowball
right from then.

1473
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:18,120
Even going part time, part time,
I was like, I reset and I was

1474
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:21,400
like, this is perfect.
And then again, slow, slow, slow

1475
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:22,080
wore off.
Yeah.

1476
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:23,840
And there was no one exact
point.

1477
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:28,160
But I think to me, it got to the
point where I I just, if I had

1478
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:30,520
to pick one point, it would be
when we're sat in like people

1479
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:33,800
progress meetings and we're
doing stuff that I understand

1480
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,240
why it's happening and I
understand that we get people

1481
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:37,680
premium budget.
We need to focus on these

1482
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:39,280
certain types of children.
And we're looking at

1483
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:41,200
demographics and we're looking
at outcomes and we're looking at

1484
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:44,360
baselines and expected lines and
and below lines and greater

1485
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:45,600
depth lines.
And we're looking at children

1486
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:46,960
around the skirtings of the
outs.

1487
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:49,240
They got to a point where I
actually just couldn't pretend

1488
00:55:49,240 --> 00:55:50,840
anymore that I think that's the
way to do stuff.

1489
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,920
And it was, again, it was no
personal starting anyone because

1490
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,040
I know the pressures that
schools are under to get

1491
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:58,400
children to a certain level and
to get X our people through the

1492
00:55:58,400 --> 00:55:59,960
SAT paper and to get into
expected.

1493
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:03,000
I know the pressure of see of
closing that gap between pupil

1494
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:05,920
premium percentage achievement
and, and everyone else

1495
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:07,480
percentage.
I, I, I get all of that.

1496
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,520
I know why we focus on stuff.
But for me as the class teacher,

1497
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:13,600
it just, it did get to the point
where I was like, Oh, I am just

1498
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,680
going to manufacture this now
and not be the intervention that

1499
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,480
I would have planned just based
on what children need or I OK, I

1500
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:22,200
really wanted to focus on these
children who are close to

1501
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:27,720
expected.
No, because they don't now.

1502
00:56:27,720 --> 00:56:29,480
They're not now more important
people.

1503
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:31,920
They're closer to an arbitrary
line withdrawn.

1504
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:33,080
And we need to get them past
that line.

1505
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,160
Fine.
But their progress, you know, 5%

1506
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:38,120
progress for them gets them over
a line, which looks great on

1507
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:42,440
paper, but their 5% progress is
genuinely not more important to

1508
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,480
me than the 5% progress of
literally anyone else on the

1509
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:46,360
scale.
I want all the children to

1510
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:48,000
progress.
So if I think, if I think

1511
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:50,320
there's something that's a, a
need that pops up, I want to be

1512
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,880
able to give it to them.
And I, I personally that that

1513
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,480
was a big thing for me where I
thought, do you know what?

1514
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:57,800
This is the way teaching is for
lots of reasons.

1515
00:56:57,800 --> 00:56:59,560
And there'll be lots of people
who argue and say it's the right

1516
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,000
thing to do and we can have that
discussion whatever.

1517
00:57:02,240 --> 00:57:05,760
Me personally, I got to the
point where I was like, I don't

1518
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:07,600
want to do this kind of thing
anymore.

1519
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,280
I would like to just try and
maybe help as many children as

1520
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:11,600
possible and just step out of
that.

1521
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:13,840
So if I had to pick a point,
it'd be that.

1522
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,760
But it grew and it grew and it
grew and it grew and we've

1523
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,280
talked about a million times.
A big thing for us was we were

1524
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:21,680
lucky enough where, well, I say
lucky, we worked really hard to

1525
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:24,160
do it.
We built income streams around

1526
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:25,960
it.
And it just got to the point,

1527
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:27,160
didn't it, where everything
added up?

1528
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:28,320
Exactly.
Gave us that, gave us that

1529
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,800
choice, but ultimately the
choice wouldn't be made if the

1530
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,280
other things didn't happen.
So I I still made the choice

1531
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:35,600
because I was fundamentally just
not happy enough with the job.

1532
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,000
Yeah, and and you know, you
started making other income

1533
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,440
streams genuinely not because
you wanted an extra £500 a

1534
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:43,520
month.
Like obviously that's nice part

1535
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:45,600
of it.
No, obviously, no, obviously

1536
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:47,320
that's nice, right?
Obviously you want that, but

1537
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:49,240
it's not going to be life
changing.

1538
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:50,920
No, no.
And again, I think a big part of

1539
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:52,680
us when we think, well, why are
you working so late?

1540
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:53,720
Why are you doing that extra
the?

1541
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,080
Because again, long term, we're
thinking it just gives you more

1542
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:57,720
freedom.
And if it grows and grows and

1543
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,520
grows, actually what what I do I
want is freedom to do what I

1544
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:02,320
want to do.
For sure, and and I'm sure

1545
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:04,000
you're the same here, but I'm
just going to talk for myself.

1546
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,320
I am extremely passion LED.
You know what I'm like in terms

1547
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,640
of like how much it impacts
whether I want to do something

1548
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:11,560
or not.
I'm really, really, really,

1549
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:13,720
really passion led.
And I think it just got to the

1550
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:15,560
point, if I can try and
summarise this in a better way

1551
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:18,160
than maybe when we last talked
about this, it got to the point

1552
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:23,320
where too many parts of the job
of teaching were just a buzzkill

1553
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:24,560
for me.
They were a drain.

1554
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:27,720
They didn't fulfil my need for
like passion, being a passion

1555
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:31,160
driven person enough that it
kind of killed the whole job for

1556
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:32,920
me.
I just wasn't over there.

1557
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,520
If there's a passion quota in my
mind that I need to achieve to

1558
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:38,600
feel happy in life, I was no
longer hitting that, even though

1559
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:41,000
I was still passionate about
certain aspects of the job.

1560
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,920
Like you put me in front of some
kids and I'm and I'm in my

1561
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,120
element.
We did an assembly last week for

1562
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:48,680
MASU because our, our old school
is actually going to be is using

1563
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:50,440
is using MASU.
And we went in and we did an

1564
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:51,560
assembly because we know those
kids.

1565
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:54,440
And it was the best 10 minutes
I've had in the last month

1566
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:57,600
because I just thrive off of
that experience of being with

1567
00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:58,840
kids.
And we're making them laugh.

1568
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:00,680
We're being a bit silly but
showing them real things and

1569
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:03,440
doing a bit of maths learning.
I love that and I'll probably

1570
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:05,360
always love that and get me back
in the classroom right now.

1571
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:08,360
I'd enjoy it right now.
But overall, all the other stuff

1572
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:12,120
was pulling my passion metre
down too far that it was just, I

1573
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:14,680
just, it was just ultimately
deflated with the job.

1574
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:16,040
It bored me.
I was getting to the point I was

1575
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:17,080
like, I don't want to do this
anymore.

1576
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:18,440
Like I don't get up excited
anymore.

1577
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:20,400
That little thing.
Yeah, I get to see the kids.

1578
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:21,640
Yeah.
But then I think about the other

1579
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:24,440
12 things that just crush every
part of enjoyment I'm going to

1580
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:26,320
have in my day because I've got
to spend 4 hours doing a bunch

1581
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:28,800
of stuff that I either hate
doing or don't even agree with

1582
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:29,760
doing.
And I'm going to have to do it

1583
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:31,320
anyway because that's just the
way the system is.

1584
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:32,880
Exactly.
When it got to that point,

1585
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:34,960
that's when I was like, I guess
I have to quit.

1586
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:38,000
I have to like, I and I'm in a
position where I can, so I have

1587
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:39,680
to do it now.
If I wasn't in the position

1588
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:41,920
where I could, I'd probably have
to have carried on and just been

1589
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:43,680
a bit annoyed about the fact
that I was in that position.

1590
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,040
But I could quit.
So I was like, OK, this is the

1591
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:50,080
time, then you've got to do it.
Yeah, I echo for you just said.

1592
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:53,880
Last question.
And I suppose for me, having

1593
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,960
said everything you just said,
do you think you'll ever go back

1594
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,840
into teaching?
I think there's a if I'm going

1595
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:03,720
probability wise, I reckon
there's like a 70% chance.

1596
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,200
At some point in my career, I'll
be back in front of a class

1597
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:08,120
being employed to teach kids.
Yeah, definitely.

1598
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:09,960
I think maybe it's higher for me
as well.

1599
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:11,080
Really.
Yeah.

1600
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:13,520
I just don't think I can do the
rest of my career.

1601
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:17,360
I don't know what the context
will be, but I want to teach

1602
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:20,160
lessons still.
I want to teach lessons to a

1603
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:22,520
class of children.
Like it's really fun.

1604
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:25,600
I love doing the assemblies.
I even even doing, we did a

1605
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:29,600
webinar last week for for mathsu
and talked about maths fluency.

1606
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:31,800
Even doing that to to fellow
colleagues.

1607
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:33,400
I loved that.
Still teaching, it's still

1608
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:36,120
performing in a way.
I really enjoyed it.

1609
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:37,200
You're passionate.
I was so.

1610
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:39,680
Passionate because it was fun,
like it just it went in the zip.

1611
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:41,320
Do you know what I mean?
I really, really liked it.

1612
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:43,560
I love delivering, you know,
help.

1613
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,680
I like serving people in that
way because it feels like what

1614
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:49,520
I'm good at and it feels like
I'm helping other people as

1615
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:51,360
well.
It's like it's the ultimate job

1616
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:55,560
in terms of that fulfilment and
also what my specialism is.

1617
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,480
So the idea that I finished my
career, my working career, and I

1618
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:00,800
don't go back to doing that
again makes me really sad.

1619
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:02,040
Like I don't want that to be a
fact.

1620
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:06,200
So I think that in some aspects,
somehow I'll be doing some kind

1621
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:07,840
of teaching.
I hope anyway.

1622
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,600
Well, I will.
I just will in some way.

1623
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:12,960
Yeah, definitely.
My passion metre needs some time

1624
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,400
to recoup and a big part of that
because I'll never not be in

1625
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:19,120
education and evil you, well,
this is always going to be our

1626
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:21,120
world.
A big part of that will be I

1627
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:24,080
will, I will never stop fighting
for and drive for positive

1628
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:26,240
changes in the education space
because those changes

1629
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:28,200
ultimately, if they're good
changes for education, they're

1630
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:30,040
going to make my passion metre
go back up and get me back in

1631
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:32,040
the classroom.
So when I can see some positive

1632
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:33,720
change coming, it might make me
think, well, do you know what?

1633
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:36,680
I reckon I'll give this another
go now, you know, maybe right

1634
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:41,760
now what I'm getting from
building MAFSU is like satiating

1635
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:45,080
my brains passion metre because
I am loving it so much like so

1636
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:47,880
in this, in this private world
right now I'm getting everything

1637
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:49,640
I need.
But maybe in five years time

1638
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:51,760
when we kind of completed that
project and we're happy where

1639
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:54,080
where it's at, I might be
thinking, I think I need to go

1640
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:54,920
in the classroom for a day a
week.

1641
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:56,520
I think I need to go to
classroom three days a week.

1642
01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:58,560
I think I need to do something
else to fulfil that.

1643
01:01:58,560 --> 01:01:59,960
I don't know.
Start holding school.

1644
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:01,160
Start holding school.
School.

1645
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:02,840
Yeah, literally.
Like, I probably genuinely love

1646
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:04,640
to do that.
So yeah, we'll see.

1647
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:07,400
That's the fun bit about life is
vibing our way through, you

1648
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:08,560
know?
Code vibing our way.

1649
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:10,800
Code vibing our way through life
and just doing what we are

1650
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:13,360
passionate about because that's
what makes you happy.

1651
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:14,440
Slightly different episode
there.

1652
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:15,600
I thought.
I thought it was nice just to go

1653
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:17,600
under the covers there and just
give people our experience

1654
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:21,160
because I think a lot of people
will be sorry, will relate to a

1655
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:24,000
lot of the stuff we said and you
guys can understand a bit more

1656
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:25,800
about us rather than just the
guys who come on and say I'm not

1657
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:28,240
doing a display.
I don't want to do some two

1658
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:31,480
cents me.
Well, actually, you know what?

1659
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:33,680
We've got our own story.
Well, actually, you know what, I

1660
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:35,960
don't want to do a display and I
don't want to do a $0.02 back in

1661
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:37,200
boarding.
So if that's what you remember

1662
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:39,080
about me, good.
Is that right?

1663
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:40,520
That's right.
And all the other stuff that we

1664
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:43,160
just talked about for.
An hour guys leaves a review.

1665
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:44,720
It helps some massively.
Please share it.

1666
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:47,000
This sharing of the podcast is
one of the biggest things you

1667
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,120
can do to help us.
Hayden.

1668
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:51,920
I've not done this in all.
Anything you want to say?

1669
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:54,120
Before I do, actually, I think
you need to vote in the poll

1670
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:56,760
that goes into this episode
about who you like more based on

1671
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:59,240
what you just heard about us.
So vote Hayden.

1672
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:01,720
Seems really harsh.
Vote Hayden.

1673
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:02,960
See ya.
Bye.