Ep 132: Making History Fun, Inspiring & Interesting with Greg Jenner (Public Historian, Horrible Histories & Podcast Host!)

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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to another episode of Teach

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Repeat.
My name is Dylan and my name's

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Hayden, and this week we're
chatting to possibly the most

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lovely man I have ever had the
pleasure of speaking to, which

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is Mr Greg Jenner.
He really was super nice.

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He.
Was really, really, really nice

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and what Greg is is a public
historian.

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He's worked on things like
Horrible Histories.

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He's been the consultant
historian.

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What a job, by the way, being
such an expert in your field

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that you're the person Horrible
Histories goes to to make sure

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that they're keeping it
historically accurate as much as

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possible.
We're going to talk all about

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that process with our chat with
him.

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But I think the main part talk
of this chat, the most important

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thing from my point of view, is
about fun in learning.

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Because as teachers, you and I,
Hayden, definitely have this

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mantra of the more the children
are enjoying what they're doing,

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the more likely they are to
learn and retain things and

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become inquisitive, good
learners.

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So what about a person to speak
to then than Greg, who has spent

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literally his whole career
making learning fun for kids

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through Horrible Histories?
He's been involved in YouTube

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videos, a podcast series for
children and of course, his

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podcast series for adults, which
is called You're Dead to Me.

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Huge.
Yeah, it's massive.

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And what I love, what I love
about what Greg does is he makes

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it accessible for everyone.
Doesn't care if they're four

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years old or 100 years old.
It's about getting the enjoyment

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of learning and making learning
fun.

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And I think as teachers, we can
learn a lot from what Greg talks

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about here, so I'm really
excited for it.

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Let's do it.
Let's have a chat.

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Hey, Greg, thanks so much for
joining us.

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How you doing?
Thank you for having me.

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I'm very excited to be here.
I'm a little a little muggy, a

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little bit warm.
My podcast studio is is lovely,

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but I haven't yet figured out
how to keep it cool without it

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being very loud for the
microphone.

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So that's that's today's
problem.

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Once we're done with this chat,
I've got an air conditioning

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unit.
I've got a sort of fancy gadget

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that cuts out sound.
Together they will combine

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hopefully to keep me cool, but
right now slightly sweaty.

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But you know, happy to be here.
Yeah, it's, I think we're in the

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same position.
We're just all going to sweat

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through this chat a really good
time whilst we're doing it.

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So obviously you've got a big
lot of, let's say, history in

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the history game.
You've done loads in your

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career, you're a public
historian.

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And the first thing I wanted to
chat about because I think a lot

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of teachers listening will have
gone to this resource, let's

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call it, and multiple times it
is horrible history.

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So you worked on Horrible
Histories.

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Could you just give us a little
bit of background about what

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your role was in that kind of
field of the TV show and the

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books, etcetera, what you did as
a historian?

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Yeah, so not affiliated with the
books at all.

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The books are amazing.
They were first printed out.

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I think the first book is 93 I
think.

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So I would have been 11 probably
when that first, you know,

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launched as a series.
So the books have sold 20 odd

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million copies before we'd even
got, you know, the TV rights.

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So you're already working with
an existing phenomenon, right?

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There's a thing that already
existed is beloved and

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important.
So that's helpful.

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So I came onto the show at the
very beginning.

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I was about 25 years old at the
time.

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I was working in TV.
I'm a trained historian and I

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sort of doorstep my boss.
When I heard he he'd secured the

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rights to the show, I sort of, I
sort of, you know, eavesdropped

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a little bit and then barged
into his office and said, I have

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to work on this.
I'm a historian who loves

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comedy.
My master's thesis was on Monty

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Python and, you know, Holy Grail
and movies about King Arthur.

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I wrote comedy at university.
I'm obsessed with how jokes

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work.
So I sort of, I sort of, you

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know, had a rare moment of
courage of saying, Richard, I'm

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so sorry, but I have to work on
this show.

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You must let me be on this show.
And he said OK.

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And I went, oh, really great.
Oh, lovely.

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I wasn't expecting a yes, thank
you.

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So I was the historian.
And they weren't actually really

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intending to have a historian.
You know, that wasn't

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necessarily part of their
planning.

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The idea, I think, was to do a
comedy sketch show in the vein

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of Black Adele or Python or
Armstrong and Miller or

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something like that, Kind of
those sort of sketch shows that

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were kind of very popular and
successful at the time, but for

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kids.
But with this educational remit,

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and obviously, I think me being
a historian, I was able to sort

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of go, well, look, I'll do the
history and you do the jokes and

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between us, we'll figure this
out.

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So I was there from 2008 to
2019-2020, just about just

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before the pandemic.
So I did 11 years on the TV

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show, not books.
And my job was initially on

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series 1 to Fact Check the
books.

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I to check.
Do we still think this is true?

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Like, you know, the stuff in
these books, they're well

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written, they're funny, they're
beloved, but history is an

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ongoing discipline.
It's it's an evolving thing and

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historians overturn knowledge
all the time.

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They, they reinterpret, they re
examine, they challenge, they

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just archaeologists discover new
things.

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Documents show up in an attic
somewhere and go, you know, you

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suddenly go, hang on a minute.
We don't think that's true

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anymore.
So my first job on the show was

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to Fact Check and then to sort
of, you know, work with the

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writing team every week for
about 6 or 7 hours every Tuesday

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I think it was.
And I would have to guide them

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through an era per week.
Sometimes we do 2 eras in a day.

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So we might do a major era in
the morning and a smaller era in

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the evening or the afternoon.
So it might be like Romans in

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the morning, Aztecs in the
afternoon.

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So I'd have to be kind of the
guy who knew all the stuff.

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And on series one, I was mostly
filleting the books, just sort

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of going through and going
that's interesting, that's

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funny, that's interesting, and
just, you know, fact checking

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and making sure I understood it.
By Series 2, we had used 90% of

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the material already.
We were starting to scrape the

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barrel a little bit.
And so that's when my role

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changed and I became kind of in
charge of finding the historical

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facts and then presenting them.
And then, you know, working with

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the writing team, the producers,
Caroline, Giles and Dominic, who

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are, you know, these brilliant
comedy producers.

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Dominic was the director,
Caroline series producer, and

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Giles was our sort of head
writer, working with them to go

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through scripts and Fact Check
them.

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And is this accurate?
Is this misleading?

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Will a kid get the wrong idea if
they are presented with this

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joke?
So I would be going through all

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of the sketches as they came in,
but my first job on the series

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was actually finding the
information and then presenting

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it to the writing team so that
they could then think about

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comedic ways of turning that
into sketch comedy.

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So I was there at the very, very
beginning and I'd be there at

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the very, very end because I
would Co write all of the

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talking, you know, Ratus Ratus,
the talking rats.

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He's based sort of on me a
little bit.

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He's kind of annoying hairy
pedant with bad jokes because

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that's kind.
Of weird like compliment in a

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way to.
Get that on the show.

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But.
Sorry, what?

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Yeah.
Oh, I'm going to be on the show.

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What you what you show me as am
I going to be some kind of, you

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know, majestic lion that are you
going to be a rat mate?

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Yeah, yeah.
I'm basically, I kind of look

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ratty.
It's fine.

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No, I mean, it's, I think the
idea was because actually the

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really interesting thing about
the process, and I don't know if

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you've ever had this as as
teachers, as educators, whether

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you've ever explained something
to a fellow teacher or a

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colleague or a member of your
family and they've gone what?

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And you realise that what you
are in possession of is

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knowledge that is startling or
counterintuitive or surprising

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and that that kind of reaction
of like, sorry, who, what when

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that's great.
You got you kind of go, oh,

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that's, that's a good bit of
knowledge.

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That's something I can deploy
my, I suppose in the room with

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all these comedy writers.
You know, it's me, you know,

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Caroline, Giles, Dominic.
And then like 12/13/14 writers

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all around a table.
We're all eating biscuits and

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Haribo.
Like I'm mostly eating biscuits

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and Haribo, but I'd be sort of
talking at them and every now

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and then they'd stop and go
sorry.

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And I'd go, ah, OK.
And that was kind of interesting

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once I spent enough time in the
room with these amazing people,

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you know, I loved comedy, but I
wasn't very skilled necessarily

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yet at comedy.
But by spending time with them,

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I started to understand what was
a, excuse me, fact like a kind

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of like a, you know, when I'd
see in a book, I'd go, that's a,

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that's a sort of, you know, what
they used in the old days call a

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marmalade dropper.
You know, the idea that you lift

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your toast up and you read
something in the newspaper and

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you drop your marmalade in
shock.

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That's, that's what you're
looking for.

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You're looking for a fact that
is so, so surprising, so

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unexpected, so weird that you
know that the kid hears that

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they're going to just lose their
minds.

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And it can be so funny.
But also, if you're, if you're

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grown up comedy writers, you
know, years in the industry, if

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they're going, what, then you go
great.

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That is we hang our hat on that
hook.

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That is our sketch, and we build
around that central idea.

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So I got better and better and
better at identifying those

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sorts of pieces of information,
but also of building context

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around them, of supporting them.
You know, you need to build a

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kind of scaffold for your funny
fact or your series of funny

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facts.
And So what was really exciting

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and interesting for me was that
I was learning the art of comedy

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writing while I was presenting
history to this room full of

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brilliant, funny people.
And they in turn were helping me

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to be a better historian because
they, their reactions, their,

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their instant feedback was
allowing me to better understand

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what do people already know?
What do they want to know?

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What is it that's pulling the
rug out from underneath them?

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And they're sort of like, well,
hang on that.

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That's not what I was taught in
school.

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And it just was really useful to
have a kind of constant feedback

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loop of this is good, this is
interesting, this is difficult,

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this is challenging.
I've lost them.

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I've lost the room.
No one, no one's coming with me

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on this one.
And that was really helpful

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because although children are
much, much younger than

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professional comedy writers,
they kind of think the same way.

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They really do.
Yeah, yeah.

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You know kids are funny.
You can do the kids.

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This is what you've touched on.
Kids are funny and I think this

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is a big part of both Hayden and
Ice practises.

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Teachers, you've really touched
on something which is kind of

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excited me a little bit in terms
of how you sat around the room

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and, and how something like
Horrible Histories was created

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because you, you rooted it in
the facts and the research and

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history.
And you started there And then

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through a group of hive mind,
you kind of extrapolated out the

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side of what was good, what was
bad and what's going to inspire

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children.
And I think comedy is a way to

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inspire the next generation and,
and fun.

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And I think fun is the keyword
that we're going to come back to

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a lot today because what you
helped create in that room was

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something incredibly fun for the
children that shocks them, that

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made them squirm, that made them
think they did what, to brush

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their teeth.
Pardon me, but that hook is so

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powerful.
And through Horrible Histories

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and through books and through
all the work you've done over

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your career to make learning fun
as educators.

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I want to encapsulate that.
I want to put that in a box and

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have it in my classroom.
So I guess what I want to come

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out from our point of view,
talking to you, Greg, someone

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who's done this really
successfully, is do you think

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that's even possible?
Do you think there's a way that

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we can make what can be
sometimes monotonous day in, day

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out, teaching of something,
getting through the facts,

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getting through the curriculum.
I've got to get these kids for a

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test at the end of this.
Is there a way still, surely,

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that we can get what you're
doing through TV shows, through

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YouTube, through podcasts, into
the classroom to inspire

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children still?
I guess that's AI mean that's

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obviously such an interesting
question, isn't it, because I'm

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not on the one hand I'm talking
with with a lack of knowledge,

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right.
You are formally trained in the

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education of young minds.
You have done it.

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00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:29,520
You've been in classrooms with
kids.

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I have you know, I spend a lot
of time talking with kids when I

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do book events.
So I've spent plenty of time

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00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,120
around young, not young minds in
terms of like I talk at them,

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they hopefully laugh and then I,
you know, sign books at the end

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and they ask me a couple of
questions and that's always fun.

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But I haven't had to do a kind
of formal and sit there and

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00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,240
listen to me.
I'm the person with knowledge

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thing.
So I kind of want to turn the

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question back around you guys
and sort of say, when you're

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preparing your Lesson plan, what
element of of entertainment or

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fun are you putting into your
perform?

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And is performance the wrong
word?

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00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:06,680
Right?
You know what, what are you

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designing your lesson around?
Because obviously my job was

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comedy.
My job was primary thing is make

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00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,600
them laugh, secondary thing is
well hopefully they'll learn

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some stuff but first thing was
make them laugh.

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Whereas I think your your
primary is the opposite way

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around, right?
Yeah, I, I, it's, it's really

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00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:28,240
interesting because I, I feel
like you're touching on 2

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elements of teaching.
There is the curriculum, you

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know, there's, there's the Holy
Grail, the thing that we have to

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teach legally, like we are
employed to teach that.

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And then there's teaching style,
which I feel like is more

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individual.
And I feel like when it comes to

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that, that performance, and it
is a performance like teaching,

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it really does feel like you are
just performing because when you

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go home, you know, the mask
comes off and you're exhausted

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because you've been performing
all day.

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Because they're because they're
young and we're primary school

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teachers.
So they're particularly young.

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And when when I'm in front of
that class personally, I am

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always looking for exactly what
you were looking for in those

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00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,120
big meetings of all the writers,
which is those fun, stand out,

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00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,840
intrinsically interesting facts
about whatever the topic is that

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that I'm supposed to be teaching
in the curriculum.

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And the biggest problem I found
is that or not necessarily

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always marrying up and you can
make it marry up, but it's not

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necessarily the curriculum
that's providing that.

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00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:26,680
I've always found it's my
teaching style.

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And then but, but another
teacher might teach it in a

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completely different way.
And you know, just in a, just in

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00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,920
a completely made-up
circumstance, there could be

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00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,080
teacher A and teacher B teaching
the same curriculum, same

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00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,400
lesson, same part of this unit.
And you've got one class of

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00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,240
children who are laughing,
inspired, they really want to

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00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:45,720
learn more and they're totally
interested by it.

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00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,680
And you've got another class who
could not be more bored, and

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00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:51,560
they're teaching the same unit.
And I think that's sort of going

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00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:55,640
back to Dylan's question is kind
of kind of why we like talking

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00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,520
to people like you and almost
want to be like, no, don't put

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00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,040
yourself down as, yeah, we're
formally trained educators.

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00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,560
But honestly, the bigger part I
think is, is just how do we

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00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,640
inspire children to be
interested in history?

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00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,640
And ultimately, that is your
job.

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00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:11,480
Like, that is what you have
spent your career doing, is

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00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:13,280
making children interested in
history.

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00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,560
So I do think our jobs are very
interlinked in that way.

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00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,320
See my natural so my daughter is
just about to turn 6.

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00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,160
So she is, you know, she's in
the school system but obviously

304
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:24,760
hasn't really touched history
just yet.

305
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,520
I think this year, year 2, she
will probably I think she's

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00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:29,280
going to be doing castles and
stuff, you know, this time

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00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:30,520
around.
I'm quite excited because you

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00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,400
know, I'm a mediaeval historian.
I can, I can do castles all day

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00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:38,600
long, but I'm kind of interested
because I think little kids,

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00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,240
really small kids are
intrinsically interested in

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00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,120
history, but they don't
necessarily know it is history

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00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,360
because to a certain extent the
past and present kind of

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00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,760
collapse into one big mush of
information.

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00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,760
They just they're, they're kind
of absorbing in the world.

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00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,360
They're kind of asking
questions, why is the sky blue,

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00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,200
yadda, yadda, yadda.
But I think by the time you

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00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,560
start labelling it as history, I
wonder if sometimes that's the

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00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,480
off putting bit is the moment
you start to classify

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00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:10,320
information as this is a
separate subject from science or

320
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,320
this is a separate subject from
maths or phonics.

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00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,240
You start to sort of you put up
little barriers, little walls.

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00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,240
And I wonder if that might be
part of the early issue

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00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,320
occasionally of maybe losing
some of the classes that they

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00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,120
might be going.
Now it's time for history, where

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00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,400
actually history is everything.
History is literally the sum

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00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,600
totality of the human
experience.

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00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,640
There have been 100, we think,
108 billion people who have

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00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,200
walked the Earth since the
evolution of our species.

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00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:39,480
So, you know, we're called Homo
sapiens.

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00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,280
We've been around for 300,000
years.

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00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,760
There have been 108 billion of
us.

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00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,400
There are currently about 8
billion on the planet right now.

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00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,560
So the dead outnumber, they're
living by quite a large

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00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:53,040
majority.
Every single person who's ever

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00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,600
lived had to face the same
challenges that we do, which are

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00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,040
the kind of biological essential
ones of like survive, breathe,

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00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,560
eat, drink, urinate, defecates,
stay warm, don't get eaten by a

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00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:05,680
tiger.
You know, all the kind of

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00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,920
classics.
But actually every single human

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00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,080
has ever lived.
There's also laughed and joked

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00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:18,280
and probably sung and danced and
maybe drummed on a on a rock and

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00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:19,200
gone.
That sounds quite good.

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00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,160
And there are these things that
are universally human and

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00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:24,920
they're history.
They are history too.

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00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,480
And I think sometimes when we
partition history into a kind of

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00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,800
an academic syllabus of you need
to know about the Romans, you

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00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,400
need to know about this and
that, sometimes what we might be

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00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:41,120
losing is the universality of a
shared common experience for

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00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,600
everyone.
Every kid, every grown up, every

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00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,680
grandparent, whoever it is in
the family, we've all done the

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00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,320
same thing.
We all have to poo and all of us

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00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,200
have to poo.
Some of us poo differently.

353
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:52,560
Sure.
Some people have.

354
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:54,720
OK, you.
Know.

355
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,680
Yet to do it.
You and the North Korean leader,

356
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,320
but.
Oh, we are.

357
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,119
We are good mates, yeah.
But I think there are, you know,

358
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,520
and there are reasons that kids
laugh at toilet jokes.

359
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,839
You know, there's a reason that
Pooh jokes are a staple of

360
00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:10,319
Horrible Histories.
There's a reason that, you know,

361
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:12,480
whenever I'm writing a kids
book, if I can sneak a toilet

362
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,200
gag in, great, because you're on
to a winner.

363
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:17,560
Because it's a universal human
experience.

364
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,760
From the age of like two or
three, we're starting to train

365
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,560
kids to use the toilets.
And you know, whatever it's,

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00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:29,000
it's so it's so vitally part of
being a an animal, a person, you

367
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,320
know, we are these sort of
creatures.

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00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:35,960
And and so I'm always sort of
trying to build off what is what

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00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:37,720
is the most shared experience of
things.

370
00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,080
So although fun, although jokes
and comedy is my kind of

371
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,840
approach to stuff when I write
books, actually the thing I'm

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00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,200
having in my head most of all is
how universal can I make this?

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00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,040
How can I make this feel like it
belongs to everyone in that

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00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,560
whoever's picking up this book,
no matter how old they are, no

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00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,800
matter where they were born, no
matter what language their

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00:17:58,040 --> 00:17:59,960
family might have spoken at home
with them.

377
00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:02,600
You know, they may not be
English as a first language

378
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,760
kids, but how to make this feel
like it's their story too?

379
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,360
And I think that for me is
something that's that's kind of

380
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:14,120
important is, is that I'm always
trying to make this say a kind

381
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:19,160
of a shared story for everyone.
Even if you're doing English

382
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,520
history or Welsh history or
Scottish history, even if there

383
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,880
is a certain sort of patriotic
or national or whatever spin on

384
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,920
things, it's still like the
question of sort of saying,

385
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:32,760
well, how do I make this feel
like one of us could have been

386
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:34,480
there instead?
You know, we, we're born into

387
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,480
this world through pure random
luck and chance, but we could

388
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:38,800
have been born in the 16th
century.

389
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,320
We could have been born in the
Stone Age.

390
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,600
What would our life have been
back then instead?

391
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,400
So I'm that's kind of in for me.
That's what's always my go to

392
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:55,880
move, I think is a push pull
effect because in comedy there

393
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,960
are two oppositional levers you
can pull to get a laugh.

394
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,680
You've got the observational
comedy familiarity thing.

395
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,000
I call it kind of the Michael
McIntyre approach.

396
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,360
Right, he came to my mind
immediately as.

397
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,720
Well, right.
You know when he starts doing

398
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,880
sort of jokes about the man
draw, everyone in the room goes,

399
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:14,280
I've got a man.
Draw.

400
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,600
We've got a man draw.
Because we've all got a man draw

401
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,520
or you know, you know, we've all
we will talk about traffic as a

402
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,000
nightmare.
And, and he sort of finds humour

403
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:24,800
and comedy and going, you know,
it's not a nightmare.

404
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:26,640
Of course it's not a nightmare.
It's boring is what it is.

405
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,480
But we call it a nightmare.
He, he takes something very,

406
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,800
very kind of normal and he, he
makes something beautifully

407
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,040
funny and well written and well
crafted from it.

408
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,400
But we all go, aha, yes, I do
that.

409
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,120
He's so funny.
But when you're doing jokes

410
00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:45,560
about the past, quite a lot of
the time your other lever that

411
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,440
you're pulling is going in the
other direction.

412
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:51,200
You're pulling the, these people
are different, the alien lever,

413
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:52,760
these people did things
differently.

414
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,040
They ate different foods, they
spoke different languages, they

415
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,800
saw the world differently.
They believed in Zeus and, you

416
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,800
know, and.
And sort of mortal gods, sort of

417
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,200
mortals and gods they believed
in, you know, they didn't know

418
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,560
the world was round or that it,
you know, the earth, you know,

419
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,680
goes around the sun.
There's the joke.

420
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,440
Often would be these people are
weird compared to us.

421
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,600
It's true though, you do have
that with the kids in the class

422
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,200
and when you see the, the eyes
light up and they're like on the

423
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,920
edge of their chair.
The reason history is popular to

424
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:26,400
teach.
I mean, we did a poll the other

425
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:27,520
day.
What's your favourite subject to

426
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:28,600
teach as a primary school
teacher?

427
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,280
Because you teach them all and
maths and English were up there

428
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:32,600
because I think we did it every
single day.

429
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,000
So they kind of find your niche
there.

430
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,720
But the most popular one that
was open for the rest of them

431
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,160
was history.
And I don't think, I don't think

432
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,280
that's, I don't think that's
like by accident.

433
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,720
I think inherently, like you
said, history is everything.

434
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,800
And if you're teaching history
to children, especially as a

435
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,600
primary school teacher, I feel
like my job is to inspire them

436
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,480
to want to learn.
And I feel like with history,

437
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,200
it's one of the most easiest to
do because I'm inspired by it.

438
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,440
I find it amazing.
There's these unbelievable

439
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,280
stories.
And then at the end of it,

440
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,720
almost like that Ratus Ratus
character you talked about.

441
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,920
You can say, by the way, kids,
this literally happened.

442
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,560
And they're like, what?
They.

443
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:11,640
They really.
Yeah.

444
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,760
And they were humans.
And you're a human.

445
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,440
And you could have done this.
If you were picked up and

446
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,400
transported to this time, you
would be doing what I'm telling

447
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:20,520
you right now.
And they're like, what?

448
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,560
I can't believe that.
I barely believe.

449
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,240
I do what I do now.
I'm only 6 years old.

450
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,080
It's like, yeah, literally, you
could be going to the toilet in

451
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,440
the bucket and throwing it out
of a window at the top floor of

452
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:31,640
your building.
That could have been what's

453
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:32,800
happened.
You might have been on the

454
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,040
bottom of the end of it with a
pile of poo on your head.

455
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,000
This could have literally
happened.

456
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:41,680
And I think as a teacher, I get
excited and I love teaching

457
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,400
history because of it.
And I feel like you're touching

458
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,240
on something great there, which
I think is absolutely true.

459
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,960
You've kind of got the freedom,
haven't you, to be like, okay,

460
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,480
I'm just gonna start with what's
interesting and go from there.

461
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,680
Yeah.
Whereas as teachers, we often

462
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,640
start with the curriculum.
And for the key stage 2

463
00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,840
curriculum is 2 to three sides
of a four.

464
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,880
It's not very long, right?
And that can go two ways.

465
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,800
So that can go two ways. 1 is
OK, it's very short, but it

466
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,280
tells us we have to do Anglo
Saxons and then we have to go on

467
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,160
chronologically in Year 5.
We're going to do the Romans and

468
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,280
then we're going to go even more
chronologically in year 6 and

469
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,200
we're going to go on to do World
War 2.

470
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,480
And it can turn very much into,
OK, cool facts, let's do Anglo

471
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:21,960
Saxons this time until this
time.

472
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,120
And then they did this next one,
Victorians this time to this

473
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:26,680
time.
And it seems really

474
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,480
compartmentalised.
And I wanted to talk to you

475
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,560
about chronology a little bit as
well, because obviously you

476
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,080
write children's books.
You've you've got your, your

477
00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:38,120
series at the minute.
I think there's three books.

478
00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:39,640
Is that right in the series?
Yeah, yeah.

479
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,280
So just got a third one just
came out a couple of weeks ago,

480
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,920
3-4 weeks ago.
And so the series is called

481
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,160
Totally Chaotic History.
And I created the series in

482
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,840
response to a session I did with
lots of primary school teachers.

483
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,520
It was a sort of online, this is
a kind of Zoom conference call.

484
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,480
And it was really fascinating
for me because I, I, I love this

485
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,160
sort of two way thing.
And I, I suppose I see myself as

486
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:05,880
a public historian, which is my
title.

487
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,000
So my, my role is to make sure
that I'm always listening to the

488
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,240
audience as well as broadcasting
at them.

489
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,640
You know, you, it's no good if
you're just talking at people.

490
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,680
You've got to listen back to see
what they're saying.

491
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,320
What do they want to know?
And so I was doing this really

492
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,960
interesting session and at the
end of it I sort of opened up

493
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:24,360
and said, you know, have you got
any kind of questions?

494
00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:26,480
Anything We didn't talk about
whatever, anything, you know,

495
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,920
you wish we did a bit more of
and Horrible Histories or

496
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:30,200
whatever.
And there was just a sort of

497
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,720
deluge of people saying the
Stone Age.

498
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:35,920
Please help, help with the Stone
Age.

499
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:41,040
It's so fast, it's so huge and
so difficult and I don't know

500
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,160
where to start and I don't know
where to stop.

501
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:44,480
And it's.
But that's the issue, the

502
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,200
curriculum, it just says Stone
Age and you're like, OK, where's

503
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:49,360
sorry?
Where's the rest of this?

504
00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:50,760
And you just look at those Anglo
Saxons.

505
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:51,400
I'm like, what?
And.

506
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,640
There's the same amount of
writing for the five year period

507
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,600
of a war.
It's like here's all the

508
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,720
information on the war and this
one you do a state age.

509
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,440
Sorry, hang on a minute.
Yeah.

510
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,000
So how did you, how did you find
that?

511
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,560
Yeah, that terms of what did you
get from the teachers saying

512
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,080
about chronology?
There so so that was that was

513
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,920
the inciting incident really
that led me to to write this

514
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,760
this series, create this series.
And so the series is I Co write

515
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,040
all the books.
So I've created the series.

516
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,920
It's my series, but I Co write
each book with an expert on the

517
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,640
subject, which is fun.
So book 1, I thought book 1

518
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,840
would be way too hard to start
with Stone Age because the Stone

519
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,760
Age is so enormous.
I didn't know how to write these

520
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,480
books yet.
So we started with the ancient

521
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,720
Egyptians because I think kids
love the Egyptians.

522
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,000
I think teachers are kind of
often that feels like a sort of

523
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,240
comfort zone, even though
they're kind of quite an exotic

524
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,400
far away, slightly different
society to our society that we,

525
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,480
I think we all, there's a
certain level of like, we know

526
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,320
this is good stuff.
So we'll start with the

527
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,280
Egyptian.
The second book was on Roman

528
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,360
Britain.
And then I was like, right, I've

529
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:51,960
got the hang of these now.
I know how to write them.

530
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,560
I know what the format is.
I've sort of practised now I'm

531
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,080
going to do the Stone Age book.
And it was a nightmare to write,

532
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,280
you know, not a Michael McIntyre
nightmare, an actual genuine

533
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:05,760
like, Oh my word.
Because what was extraordinary

534
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:10,400
is a, you're trying to, you're
trying to do 3 and a half

535
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,280
million years of history,
prehistory, of course.

536
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,720
So First off, the first thing I
had to say to kids is this isn't

537
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,360
history.
This is prehistory.

538
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,280
History is where we have written
sources.

539
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,320
So history starts where there is
writing.

540
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,520
Writing is only 5000 years old.
This is millions of years of

541
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,320
prehistory.
Secondly, on page three, you

542
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,360
immediately have to go, oh,
human evolution.

543
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,720
So you have to start with
science.

544
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,480
You have to begin the book by
saying what is evolution?

545
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,600
And that's a really hard thing
to explain to it.

546
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,920
These books are kind of
eight-year olds up really.

547
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,840
There's a bit more wordy than my
previous kids book, you are

548
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,840
history, which was about daily
life through 50 objects or

549
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,920
things that a child will know
that was a bit more suitable for

550
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,280
six 7-8 year old.
These books are a bit more

551
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:54,640
wordy.
They're a bit more full on.

552
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,760
So we, you know, I Co write this
one correct, this one with

553
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,680
Doctor Brenna Hassett, who's a
archaeologist and she's a

554
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,040
scientist.
And so we kind of sat down and

555
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,920
said, how do you explain
evolution to an 8 year old?

556
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,880
And the first way in was I just,
I just joked about spider man,

557
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:13,080
right?
I, so I did a joke.

558
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,200
I said to evolution is when you
get bitten by a radioactive

559
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,480
spider and you turn into a CD.
And she went no.

560
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,640
And that's how we began that
section.

561
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,080
We started with a joke.
And the reason I think the books

562
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,920
kind of work is that in the book
I get to change my role.

563
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,480
I'm the narrator, but I get
stuff wrong on purpose, of

564
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:32,280
course.
Yeah, yeah.

565
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,360
And the expert corrects me.
That's a classic teacher.

566
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:37,040
Moved that, by the way.
Yeah, well done.

567
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,440
You noticed that?
Yeah, there's a stake in there.

568
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,360
Exactly.
So by by kind of inverting the

569
00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:45,880
power structure a little bit,
what that allows me to be is the

570
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,760
funnier kind of silly one who
gets confused, they get lost.

571
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,680
I don't know where I am.
I get scared.

572
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,480
You know, a Sabre toothed tiger
jumps out at me on page 14 and

573
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,560
it literally just you turn the
page and a Sabre toothed tiger,

574
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,440
you know, jumps out at you and,
and I just spend the next three

575
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,520
lines screaming, you know, just
literally.

576
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,320
And when we did the audio book
last couple of weeks ago, I was

577
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,000
just I was just screaming.
I was just screaming into the

578
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:07,480
microphone got.
A Sabre toothed tiger in.

579
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:08,000
Come on.
Yeah.

580
00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:10,440
You know, well, we did well, we
got the sound effects and so we

581
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:11,960
got a lion roaring.
You know, it's fun.

582
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,320
It's really fun.
But what's nice about doing that

583
00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:19,440
is by inverting the power
structure slightly, I'm still in

584
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,400
control of the book.
I'm still doing the jokes and

585
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,240
presenting information, but I am
opening myself up to be

586
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,800
corrected.
And what that allows you to do

587
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,520
is explain how historians and
scientists and archaeologists

588
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,520
develop knowledge by overturning
existing knowledge and by

589
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,000
correcting and saying, actually,
no, we've just discovered this

590
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,520
and we've just discovered this.
And the Stone Age book was a

591
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,520
nightmare to write because the
Stone Age archaeology moves at

592
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,720
1,000,000 miles an hour, and we
had to rewrite the book five

593
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,400
times because new discoveries
kept happening during the seven

594
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,960
months we were writing it.
And by the time the book was

595
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,080
finished and we'd handed it off
and they did the arts, there

596
00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,640
were two more corrections that
had to be added in for the

597
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,800
audiobook.
So 7 corrections in the process

598
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,000
of writing that book, and not
even a year's worth of work. 7

599
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,720
corrections went into the five,
into the public, into the

600
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,800
printed book, sorry, two further
into the audiobook.

601
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,200
By the time it came out it was
already wrong, and by the time

602
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,440
the audio book is out, it'll
probably be wrong, be wrong

603
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:20,560
again.
And how does that mean you?

604
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,920
Feel when when knowing that
that's just always going to

605
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,320
happen.
That so we we baked it into the

606
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,480
book, into the actual book.
We joke, we we physically sort

607
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,760
of we make light of it.
We laugh about it.

608
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,440
We say to kids, I'm going to
have to come around your house

609
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,880
with a red pen and just correct
bits and go, sorry, that's not

610
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,680
true anymore.
Sort of strike that out because

611
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,080
that's the thrilling thing about
studying a subject carefully is

612
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,200
actually knowledge is not a
static thing.

613
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,520
Facts are not settled.
There's a thing called the half

614
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,760
life of facts, which is this
notion that much like

615
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,960
radioactive material, there is a
sort of half life on things and

616
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,360
they degrade over time.
And facts, some stay the same

617
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,360
forever. 1066 is still 1066.
We still agree it's Harold and

618
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,640
you know, William or whatever,
But some facts get changed all

619
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:08,760
the time.
They're constantly being

620
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:13,120
overturned and we made that the
kind of core argument of the

621
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,640
book.
So the Stone Age book I'm

622
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,240
especially proud of because it's
got a sort of scientific bent.

623
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,280
It's more of a, it's a bit of,
it's about archaeological

624
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,200
science, it's about DNA, it's
about how we're using these new

625
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,120
technologies to change our
minds.

626
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,080
But at the end of the book,
actually, what we're saying

627
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,720
really is it's actually an
exciting, wonderful thing to

628
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,520
know something and then realise
you are wrong, change your mind

629
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,040
in the face of new evidence and
to reframe and to keep learning.

630
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,840
And so the book in the end
hopefully is a sort of an

631
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:47,320
argument in defence of not
having kind of settled knowledge

632
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,440
that you cross your arms and go,
I know this and I know it

633
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,640
forever and it's true, but
rather saying prove it.

634
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,480
And if you can't prove it, then
what are you going to present

635
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,320
instead?
And that's the beginnings,

636
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,000
hopefully, of getting kids to
think scientifically, but in a

637
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,960
history book.
So actually what I was really

638
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,200
proud of with this book is
actually we moved kids away from

639
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,480
thinking about the past as a
sort of static thing where

640
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,400
everything happened and we know
it, to actually understanding

641
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,200
that when we study the past,
we're going to change our minds.

642
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,920
And that is a healthy thing.
It's such it's such a good point

643
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,200
what what you're saying there
because I used to get

644
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,080
frustrated.
I, I my friends knew I did

645
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:24,880
history finished their history
degree.

646
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,480
Cool nice one Dylan who was in
charge of Ghana in the 1850s.

647
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,720
I'm like you don't that question
doesn't even make like what you

648
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,600
don't I don't know everything
ever.

649
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,600
So being a historian isn't I've
got the Bank of knowledge now

650
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,480
for all the facts ever and I
actually go as far to say I'm

651
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,400
not a historian.
I've got a degree in history.

652
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,320
I love history.
You know, you're a public

653
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,560
historian and hearing you say
this is so refreshing because

654
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,160
even colleagues in the past have
said to me, well, you did

655
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:50,240
history.
What happened here?

656
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,880
And I'm like, that's kind of not
really the point because if I

657
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,240
think about what I want children
to get from a history lesson is

658
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,720
I want them to be inspired.
I want them to wonder.

659
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,760
I want them to ask questions.
And I actually, I wonder what

660
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,080
you think about this.
My aim sometimes with a history

661
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,680
lesson is I finished the lesson
and the children have more

662
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,120
questions than when they started
because it can feel sometimes as

663
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,240
if I start a history lesson and
by the end we've finished it

664
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,240
all.
Let's test your knowledge on why

665
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,280
did the Anglo Saxons.
OK, cool, but that's brilliant.

666
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,600
But I feel like I've done a
better history lesson when the

667
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,200
children end and go, what about
that?

668
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:29,600
What about this?
What about this other thing we

669
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:30,640
learned?
What about the links we can

670
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:31,680
make?
What if this happened?

671
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,840
I, I want that and I feel like
that's successful.

672
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,560
So do do you.
What would a good history lesson

673
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,520
look like to you?
I know you've not taught

674
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:40,960
formally before, but what do you
think?

675
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,120
I mean, that's such an
interesting point and I love

676
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,800
that answer.
And I'd love to hear from both

677
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,680
of you, you know, what it is
you're looking for and a good

678
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,080
lesson from your, you know, when
you feel proud that you've

679
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,320
nailed a great lesson, Like what
is it that you feel you've

680
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,240
you've nailed?
That would be loved to hear.

681
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,280
I'll give my answer first, I
suppose, just to be polite

682
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:03,160
because I'm your guest.
So sometimes it's different.

683
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,400
It depends on the format.
So when we do, I host in the

684
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,480
pandemic, I hosted a children's
podcast.

685
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:10,360
Kids were being homeschooled,
right?

686
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,080
And there was a sort of a
sudden, you know, there was a

687
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,760
sudden need for a little bit
more support, I think for

688
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,640
parents and, and, and caregivers
and people who are, you know,

689
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,680
stuck at home sort of going, oh,
I've suddenly I'm having to do

690
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,400
sort of supplementary education
of my child because the teachers

691
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,200
are doing their absolute best.
But this is really hard.

692
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,040
We're all having a hard time.
So Radio 4 kind of gave us a

693
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,400
little funny little kids show,
which we didn't know was going

694
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:35,680
on Radio 4.
We thought it was a podcast.

695
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,000
And then suddenly it was on the
radio after Andrew Marr and I

696
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,120
was like this, oh, sorry, I
didn't know.

697
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,240
We were making a kind of.
A, you know, certainly a shift

698
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:44,280
there.
It's a real shift.

699
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,240
It was like start of the week
and then suddenly it was maybe

700
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,320
hello.
But what we did in that is we

701
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,240
presented a kind of 15 minute
little history lesson on that

702
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,440
subject where there was a
biography of someone famous or a

703
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,000
kind of time in history.
You know, we did the restoration

704
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,280
of of King Charles.
We did, you know, I think to

705
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,600
Florence Nightingale, I think,
and Pompeii, life in Pompeii.

706
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,400
And at the end we had a little
quiz, 5 questions to see how

707
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,760
much you've learned.
That is a kind of reinforcing

708
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,280
tactic, right?
You are confirming to the child

709
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,480
or to the listener, you have
learned some information, you've

710
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,040
locked it away.
Congratulations.

711
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,160
It's a sort of pat on the back.
And if they get 3 out of five,

712
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,400
maybe they go back and listen
again to see if they can improve

713
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,720
their score.
So it's a sort of, there's a

714
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:32,480
sort of feedback, the mechanism
there by which you can measure

715
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,600
knowledge acquisition.
I have learned some things

716
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,720
great, five out of five.
And what we learned, what

717
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,040
surprised us and delighted us
was because the show went out on

718
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,520
Radio 4, which we didn't expect,
grandparents were hearing it

719
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,600
because, you know, grandparents
like Radio 4 and they were

720
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,200
phoning up and zooming their
grandkids because they couldn't

721
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,640
see each other.
They were kind of having to lock

722
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,000
down.
They were sort of separately and

723
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,200
they were comparing scores and
they were sort of beginning

724
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,880
these little cute rivalries and
or alliances of like, you know,

725
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,160
we'll do the next episode
tomorrow, grandpa.

726
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,200
And that was so sweet.
We were getting letters and

727
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,400
emails from people saying thank
you for the show.

728
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,480
It's allowed me to bond with my
grandkids in a way that we'd

729
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,239
never quite bonded before
because I never quite knew what

730
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:18,880
it was they were learning or
interested in.

731
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,040
But suddenly we could have had
this shared experience and

732
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:22,840
obviously we hadn't designed it
that way.

733
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,679
That was not the plan.
The plan was to do something for

734
00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:26,760
kids alone.
But because it just went out on

735
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,320
the radio, suddenly a whole
older generation was also

736
00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:32,760
getting stuff out of it and it
was like really nice.

737
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,600
So we're, we're going to
hopefully do another sort of

738
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,840
series of children's podcasts
for the radio, hopefully.

739
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:45,360
But, but Long story short, I, I
love when there are more

740
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,239
questions than answers at the
end of the session.

741
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,800
You know, whenever I do a book
talk, I'll do 50 minutes of

742
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,520
talking, you know, some funny
jokes, a few silly PowerPoint

743
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,000
slides with jokes in them or
whatever.

744
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,840
But always 10 minutes at the
end, you know, where a roving

745
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,800
microphone goes around or
sometimes what I do that I love

746
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,120
because it's, and I'd love to
know if you've ever done this.

747
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:10,160
I run into the audience and to
kind of switch up the power

748
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:11,800
dynamic a little bit.
Because when you're kind of up

749
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,320
on stage in front of 300 or 500
kids or whatever, there's a sort

750
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,480
of very kind of formal, like I'm
the knowledgeable 1 and you're

751
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,160
all kind of a block of kids, you
know, and you just sit there and

752
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:24,880
listen.
But if you, if you sort of

753
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,040
Sprint into the middle of them,
it sort of creates a slightly

754
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,600
chaotic fervour of like what's
happening, what's happening.

755
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,720
But it also, it slightly
demystifies the distance between

756
00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:35,000
us.
Like physically the distance

757
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,600
shortens, right?
I'm suddenly amongst them, but

758
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,600
it excites them a little bit,
but also it seems to liberate

759
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,280
them just to ask more questions
and more hands shoot up straight

760
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,080
away.
And my favourite sessions are

761
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:48,840
the ones where the organisers
let me go long.

762
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,720
You know, sometimes you're
you've got one hour and they

763
00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:52,520
need to get off stage because
someone else is coming on.

764
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,560
But if I have booked an event
that it's just me and if the

765
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,480
parents are cool and if the
teachers are cool, you know, if

766
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,800
everyone's like chill, I will
just let that run as long as as

767
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,360
everyone wants to run because
there is no end of questions.

768
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,440
As soon as I answer 1, three
more hands shoots up.

769
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,040
Because the moment you answer a
question, as you said you, you

770
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,400
generate 3 more because that's
how kids work.

771
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,680
They are brilliant little
computation machines who go but

772
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,880
hang on.
You said this, which means that

773
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:23,760
and and it's delightful.
Picture of a Viking helmet that

774
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,120
had horns in it.
What are you talking?

775
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,720
I was like, oh, OK, brilliant.
Talk about it exactly.

776
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,760
And my, you know, I wrote a book
in the pandemic that was for

777
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,440
adults, mostly for teenagers and
adults called Ask a Historian

778
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,520
where I was, you know, 50.
I answered 50 genuine questions

779
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,360
from the public.
But it began because I was

780
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,040
getting amazing questions from
kids.

781
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,200
And it occurred to me that this
is a fun idea for a book and I

782
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:48,400
ended up having to do it for
adults.

783
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,320
But the, the best question I've
ever been asked, and it's a

784
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,440
possible one to answer because
I'm not a theologian, but was

785
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,560
Jesus sad that the dinosaurs
were extinct?

786
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,680
And I, I just was stumped.
I was like, that's an incredible

787
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,080
question.
Ask the Pope.

788
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,800
I don't know, you know, like my,
my, my training is not going to

789
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,080
Get Me Out of this one.
I can tell you when the

790
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,440
dinosaurs died out.
I can tell you about the kind of

791
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,600
the life of Jesus as a
historical character.

792
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:13,880
Or is that the historical figure
I?

793
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,120
Love the idea of the Pope having
an answer for it.

794
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,480
Where he maybe he does.
Yes, it it really was some, it

795
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,720
really was a very tough time.
But thank you.

796
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:28,120
But what I loved about that
question, a empathy, right, A

797
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,840
kid is saying, was Jesus sad?
So does did Jesus feel human

798
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,040
emotions about something that
makes me sad?

799
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:35,080
You know, the child is obviously
gone.

800
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:36,440
I'm sad the dinosaurs have died
out.

801
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,480
I'd love dinosaurs to be around.
Cool.

802
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,360
B.
That is the sort of loyally

803
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,520
theologian question that you get
in the 4th century when all of

804
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,960
the kind of Christian bishops
are trying to figure out, OK,

805
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:50,000
what?
OK, what?

806
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,480
What is Christianity?
Have we, have we agreed on all

807
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,440
the rules here?
And they are, they're sitting

808
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,640
around these big tables arguing
amongst themselves about is

809
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,200
Jesus a God or is he a man or is
he something else?

810
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,840
Is he, is he a tripartite?
And you realise that children

811
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,520
are just as sophisticated,
they're just as smart.

812
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,560
They don't necessarily have the
language that a lawyer or

813
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,080
theologian might have.
But this is someone asking an

814
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:18,360
incredibly great question.
And that question stumped me.

815
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:19,640
I couldn't answer it.
I laughed.

816
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,400
The whole room went, what the
brilliant question.

817
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,720
All the parents sort of did a
kind of sharp intake, a breath

818
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:27,560
of like, you know, exactly.
Yeah, yeah.

819
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,520
It's, you know, but for me, that
is the most wonderful thing,

820
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:37,120
when a child reveals a kind of
forensic level of interrogation

821
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,240
and I have to just go.
I don't know.

822
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,320
Yeah, exactly.
That's the powerful thing.

823
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,920
I don't.
Know yeah, it happened so much

824
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,840
in class by the way because as
we've established history is

825
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,640
everything ever right There are
obviously like one of the

826
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,120
biggest barriers to teaching
history in primary school

827
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,320
particularly and it is different
for secondary school is is that

828
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,720
it's just one of like 13
subjects that we have to teach

829
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,560
yeah you just can't be experts
on everything so it becomes it

830
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,920
almost becomes a bit superficial
sometimes you know we've got a

831
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,960
topic we've got a teacher, right
You're doing Egyptians that's

832
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:08,960
the best one.
Clearly you're doing Egyptians.

833
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:11,720
Here's the, here's the stuff
you've got to get across.

834
00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:13,040
And you do find yourself as a
teacher.

835
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,000
You touch up, you touch up on
the knowledge beforehand.

836
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,520
You don't know everything.
And the children in class

837
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,520
regularly, regularly.
I can't, there's not many

838
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,040
history lessons I've taught
where at least one child has not

839
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,920
asked a question where I'm like,
I have no idea.

840
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,520
I just, I just, I just don't
know.

841
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:30,720
And you can, you can.
I think at the beginning of my

842
00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:32,840
career, I almost found it
embarrassing because I, I was

843
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:34,680
that man on the stage, you know,
like you were saying, I was

844
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,120
like, oh, no, I have to be the
font of knowledge.

845
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:38,760
I have to know everything.
Otherwise they won't respect me

846
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:40,880
and then they won't learn.
Hey, Sir, where's Egypt?

847
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:42,840
Oh, I don't know.
What's Egypt?

848
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:44,960
I don't even know what this is.
Yeah, you know, there's

849
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,640
obviously a level, but but they
yeah, they've asked a really

850
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,040
good question.
And I learned through my career

851
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,640
as a teacher that it was that
that was that was the win.

852
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,040
Ah, yes, I've got them to think
of something so intricate and

853
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,600
interesting that that I don't
even, I haven't even got

854
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,760
prepared in my sort of facts and
stories for this lesson.

855
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,240
That's a win because they
they're now thinking about

856
00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:05,320
something different because
they're clearly interested and

857
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,160
and I say, I don't know.
That that is, I'm hoping you're

858
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,360
on the same page, Greg here as
us, because that's what being a

859
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,920
historian is to me.
Being a historian isn't sat

860
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,000
there reciting lists of facts
that you said No, sure, some of

861
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,560
some of them.
Don't get me wrong, retrieval is

862
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,600
something that's built into a
lot of lessons, especially

863
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,240
history, geography, etcetera.
And when teachers say retrieval,

864
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:26,200
what we're what we're testing is
very much like at the end of

865
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,120
your 15 minutes, you had the
five questions to see what you

866
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:30,520
remembered.
We do that a lot.

867
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,840
And that's good practise.
And I don't want it to seem to

868
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,600
anyone listening that I'm
saying, oh, that's bad.

869
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:35,840
That's not history.
Of course it is.

870
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,520
Of course part of history is
knowing the stories and the

871
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,160
facts and what happened.
Of course it is.

872
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,480
But when I'm thinking of the
balance, I feel like it's just

873
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,440
so far outweighed by inspiration
and wanting to find out more.

874
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,440
And if I'm building historians
in my classroom, what I want

875
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,800
more than anything is children
asking questions of not only

876
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,960
what happened next, also, where
did we get this information

877
00:40:58,960 --> 00:40:59,520
from?
Yes.

878
00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:02,520
How do we know this is true?
Can can I trust this

879
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,640
information?
Oh, there's three other people

880
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,240
saying something different.
Why is that important?

881
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,680
And if then at the end of all of
that, I'm going.

882
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:12,920
But by the way, I told you this,
so it's true.

883
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,080
No, no, no, no.
I want them to question my

884
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:16,840
authority.
I want them to say, how do you

885
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,120
know that, Sir?
Well, what about this?

886
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,160
You said that before.
Yeah, that is a green tick for

887
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:22,680
me.
And it's hard to, it's hard to

888
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,640
gauge and measure that sometimes
as a, as a school and say, Oh,

889
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,520
well, this child's asking these
good questions, questions.

890
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,280
You kind of have to feel it and
be in the lesson a bit, I feel

891
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,040
like.
Yeah, but that's such an

892
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,680
important point.
I mean, for me, a historian is

893
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,480
your training skills.
You're not training knowledge

894
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,280
completely.
You know, I, I know stuff, sure.

895
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,000
I've studied lots of sort of,
you know, areas of history I'm

896
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,760
pretty comfortable in most, you
know, European history I'm

897
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,400
pretty good on.
I'm not so good on like East

898
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:49,840
Asian history or South Asian
history.

899
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:51,000
I'm trying to get better.
But, you know, there's

900
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:51,960
definitely holes in my
knowledge.

901
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,800
Of course there are, but I'm
pretty knowledgeable and I can

902
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,120
hold my own for about 20 minutes
with a scholar on most subjects.

903
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,040
After a while they run out of
stuff because I'm not an expert

904
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:02,240
in anything.
But I can sort of, you know,

905
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:07,120
keep up for a bit.
But when someone says, OK, what,

906
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,440
what is a history degree for?
If you go to university to study

907
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:11,720
history?
And obviously, you know, young

908
00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:15,400
kids are not doing that kind of
level yet, but the the

909
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,360
foundations should be there.
I think in primary school of

910
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:25,520
history is it's an interrogation
of how do we know this?

911
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,960
Why do we think this is true?
Could this be not true?

912
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,120
Does it matter if it's not true?
Who's telling me the stuff?

913
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,120
Why should I care about it?
Why is this relevant to me?

914
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:41,960
Like at the core element of it,
the word history is an ancient

915
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,840
Greek word historia.
It comes from etymologically, it

916
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,280
comes from the word for, for
story and tale in some ways, but

917
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,960
actually it comes from the word
for inquiry.

918
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,160
So their first historian, we,
we, we argue extensively about

919
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,000
who the first historian was.
But typically people would often

920
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:03,120
say Herodotus.
The first historians were people

921
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,000
who asked questions and
inquired.

922
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,120
And what's interesting is that
the process of inquiry is how

923
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,840
history was first recorded.
Herodotus and people like him,

924
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,520
Thucydides or whatever, they
went around asking questions.

925
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,000
They'd go up to sailors and say,
what's India like?

926
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,920
And then they'd write stuff down
and they travel and they'd,

927
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,040
they'd sort of jot things down
and they would sort of say, I

928
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:22,200
heard a story and I heard this
thing.

929
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,800
And, and so the earliest
histories we have are inquiring,

930
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,560
curious minds going right, this
bloke told me this and this

931
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,640
person said that.
And I've met this person and

932
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,520
they said that.
So our, our very earliest

933
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,680
written histories are people
going into the world and asking

934
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:39,400
questions.
And that is what history is at

935
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,360
its very core.
But obviously as an academic

936
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,240
discipline, it has within it
skills, you know, skills and

937
00:43:45,240 --> 00:43:47,800
knowledge sets of course.
And you want kids to have some

938
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:48,640
knowledge.
Of course I do.

939
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,040
I'd love children to have better
knowledge of the past.

940
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:56,320
That's wonderful.
But I think for me, what I'm

941
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,280
looking for when I'm, you know,
working with kids or meeting

942
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,920
kids or whatever, I, I really
want to see that curiosity and

943
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:08,520
that interrogative ability to
go, really, how do you know

944
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,400
that?
And I, you know, and that's fun,

945
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,040
you know, because there's
there's so many little subtle

946
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:18,080
little shifts that when you
interrogate them fall apart at

947
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,720
the seams.
You know, there's a famous,

948
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,520
there's a famous line about
there's a very famous story

949
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,000
about Queen Cleopatra being
smuggled into the palace to see

950
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:28,840
Julius Caesar.
It's the first time she meets

951
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,120
him.
And in the movie, she's rolled

952
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,160
out in a carpet.
So if you've ever seen the

953
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,520
classic kind of movie, that kind
of rug is unrolled.

954
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,920
And now she comes and you kind
of go, she's smuggling on the

955
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:39,600
carpet.
Great.

956
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,920
You then go back and look at the
Latin and the Latin doesn't say

957
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,720
carpet, it says bedding.
She's smuggled in in a mattress,

958
00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:53,040
she's in basically a duvet.
And that that's different to

959
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,040
carpet.
It's not fundamentally

960
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:56,480
different.
It's not that she's smuggled in

961
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,920
on the back of an elephant.
It's not that different, but

962
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,160
it's just subtly different.
It's just different.

963
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,160
And The thing is, is that you
realise the tiniest translation,

964
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,480
the tiniest tweak in our
understanding of an ancient

965
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,720
Latin word can really change the
meaning suddenly.

966
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,800
And there's, there's a million
of those tiny little things.

967
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:18,720
And so when kids ask questions,
quite often, if you go back to

968
00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:20,840
the core source of that
knowledge that you're carrying

969
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,720
as a teacher or as a historian,
you might be wrong.

970
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,680
And I'm I'm chill with it.
I'm fine going actually, I don't

971
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:29,240
know.
Or actually there's so, or

972
00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:31,480
there's two different sources
and they disagree on Horrible

973
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,080
Histories.
One of the things I'm proudest

974
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,560
of, you know, Ratus, Ratus, he
would come up at the end of the,

975
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:37,880
he's basically a historian,
right?

976
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,800
He's footnotes for kids because
he's confirming and denying

977
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,680
through the sketch.
He comes up at the end sometimes

978
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:44,920
and he says that may not be
true.

979
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,280
We've got two different versions
of story.

980
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:48,920
One story says this and the
other version says this.

981
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,320
And so we've presented the
funnier version, but at the end

982
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,520
we've undercut it.
The historian has appeared to

983
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:58,960
say, look, that was fun but not
necessarily accurate.

984
00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:02,080
And that's really important.
I think it's also allowing

985
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:07,760
children the space and the, the
audacity to interrogate, to

986
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,320
challenge, but also to be aware
that as with my Stone Age book

987
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,200
or as with my, in my Egypt book
and my Roman Britain book, you

988
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,400
know, when I sit down with the
Co experts, you know, these

989
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,480
brilliant people who are, who've
got PhDs, they're going to pull

990
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,240
apart some of the stuff I'm
going to say.

991
00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:24,240
And they're going to say
actually, we don't think

992
00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:26,160
mummification was about
preservation anymore.

993
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,240
We've changed our mind for 200
years.

994
00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:30,840
That's what we thought, and now
we've changed our mind, and now

995
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:32,480
we believe.
All the teachers listening to

996
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,040
this are very quickly going to
their smart.

997
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,280
You know, this, this really
highlights for me the challenge.

998
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,680
And maybe the word is a bit of
hypocrisy.

999
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,880
I don't know, in the our
curriculum is built on it.

1000
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,240
It's, it has to be measurable.
We talked about this a bit on

1001
00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:50,240
our podcast.
How how the, how the, the, the

1002
00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:55,480
need to measure everything so
obsessively often kills a lot

1003
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,480
of, you know, areas of education
that we think are important.

1004
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,520
And, and the, the hardest, but I
find of history is everything

1005
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,760
you've just said there about all
of these skills of comparing

1006
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,440
evidence and how think how, how
facts do change our knowledge

1007
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,280
and understanding of stuff
changes when you have that up

1008
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:09,960
against.
Yeah, but we need to measure

1009
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,000
what kids know.
And what that boils down to is

1010
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,080
OK, so we're going to we're,
we're going to make quick make

1011
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,080
kids answer questions.
I'm going to teach them a bunch

1012
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,040
of facts in this lesson and they
have to answer those questions

1013
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,880
at the end.
And we're not going to open up

1014
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:24,920
the idea that those facts might
be might change.

1015
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:26,600
It might be different because
then obviously you can't get

1016
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:27,800
them right or wrong.
We can't measure it.

1017
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:29,800
And I find there's a constant
battle in my head when

1018
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,040
navigating the curriculum
between, well, clearly we're

1019
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,280
supposed to be doing these
things, these skills, you know,

1020
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,400
of inquiry and, and comparing.
Well, they are in the curriculum

1021
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:38,480
as well.
I don't know, Greg, if you've

1022
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,760
seen the, the national
curriculum is not that long, but

1023
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:45,200
it's said as in the curriculum,
good history teaching is cause

1024
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,560
and effect consequences,
comparing similarities,

1025
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,200
differences.
That's everything we've just

1026
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,240
said.
So the curriculum itself, I

1027
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:55,360
don't think, I don't think it
necessarily means we have to go

1028
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,120
down this route.
But what you're saying is

1029
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,600
absolutely right of, but we need
to measure things and we need to

1030
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,640
be able to say at the end of
this unit, this child scored 15

1031
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,040
out of 17 on questions about
ancient Egypt.

1032
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,960
That child's done better at
history then than the child who

1033
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,440
got 13 or the child who got 10.
And all I guess we're saying is

1034
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,200
as a pushback is that's not
necessarily true.

1035
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,960
Some of my best historians might
muddle up their facts sometimes

1036
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,680
in class, but they're the ones
at the front saying, what about

1037
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:20,560
that?
What about this I?

1038
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,280
Think I can summarise it by
saying that we don't measure all

1039
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,000
of the skills, and when we don't
measure all of the skills, we

1040
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,360
then subliminally don't value
the ones we don't measure as

1041
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,200
much, even though they clearly
contribute to whether you're a

1042
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,440
good historian or not.
I mean, I as boring as it is, I

1043
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:37,800
can't help it because I love my
football.

1044
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,720
But sometimes the best
footballers, their metrics don't

1045
00:48:40,720 --> 00:48:43,840
show up in the stats, but you
put them in a team and the team

1046
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:45,640
gets better and you're like,
what, why?

1047
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:47,880
Why is team better?
That footballer has better

1048
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:49,560
vision.
You can't measure vision.

1049
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,640
They see the passes, they know
where people are, they're

1050
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,440
spotting the space, they're
asking better questions, you

1051
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,000
know, and it's it takes the kind
of world class footballers to

1052
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,040
show you that, but that's not
measurable.

1053
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,800
Opta doesn't measure vision,
doesn't measure kind of the

1054
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,920
ability to perceive what's going
on around them.

1055
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:07,440
But you want that player in the
team.

1056
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:12,120
And I think, you know, with,
with history, of course, your

1057
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,160
measurables are going to be,
what do they know about the

1058
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,280
Saxons or, you know, the
Egyptians and the Romans?

1059
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:21,320
But at the same time, yeah, I,
you know, I, I'm always hopeful

1060
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:25,760
that a history, you know, a
piece of historical information

1061
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:29,720
or a lesson or a podcast or a
book or a video game or a

1062
00:49:29,720 --> 00:49:32,120
YouTube or, you know, whatever
is that kids are engaging with.

1063
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,800
My hope is that it's going to
start a kind of lifelong series

1064
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,560
of questions.
And and, you know, you know,

1065
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:41,800
Horrible Histories for us, we
wouldn't really classify

1066
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:43,400
ourselves.
We weren't calling ourselves a

1067
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,520
kind of educational show.
It might have been perceived

1068
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,040
that way.
It might be taken that way.

1069
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,640
But I think we saw ourselves as
cheerleaders in history.

1070
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:56,280
We saw ourselves as advocates
for why history is fun, cool,

1071
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:00,400
interesting, exciting, relevant,
should be given more time.

1072
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,320
But we wanted kids, not
necessarily to come away going.

1073
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,200
And now I know about the Romans.
What we wanted was kids to come

1074
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,120
away going.
Now I want to know more about

1075
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:09,160
the Romans.
We.

1076
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,680
Wanted them to go to museums.
We wanted them to sort of put,

1077
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,160
you know, pull their, their
parents sort of clothes and go,

1078
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,600
can we go on holiday to Italy?
I want to go see a Roman temple.

1079
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,960
You know, what we wanted was
them to engage with their

1080
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:23,440
teachers better.
We wanted them to engage with

1081
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:28,240
museums or pick up a book or,
you know, to be honest, my hope

1082
00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:31,680
was simply to prevent the switch
off that happens when kids get

1083
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,120
to 14 and most of them just
ditch history entirely.

1084
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,320
You just lose them at GCSE most.
I mean, maybe not, you know,

1085
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,760
maybe GCSE history is one of the
more popular ones.

1086
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,040
I'm not sure.
No, but you're right, You're

1087
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:46,440
right though, because you get to
that age and, and it is that

1088
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,680
natural wonder and awe that
younger children have.

1089
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,440
I think that's why a lot of
primary school teachers enjoy

1090
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,600
history because you can almost
kind of amaze and shock them

1091
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:55,960
just by talking about the past
and they're kind of there

1092
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:57,400
already.
But I think you're absolutely on

1093
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,960
to something in terms of when
they get a bit older, it is much

1094
00:50:59,960 --> 00:51:03,920
easier to to switch them off.
And, and I think I, I do think

1095
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,400
it's, it's hand in hand with the
high stakes examinations that

1096
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,880
come when it comes to TTSCS.
We don't have that in primary

1097
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,120
school for history.
So we can very much go down the

1098
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,160
line of inquiry and what's fun
and interesting, but when

1099
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,720
they've got a test and they've
got, you know, cue cards that

1100
00:51:17,720 --> 00:51:20,240
they've got to remember facts
for, I remember I enjoyed that

1101
00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:22,720
myself as a person.
That's why I liked history and

1102
00:51:22,720 --> 00:51:24,080
put me off, though.
Yeah, exactly.

1103
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:25,960
It did put me off.
And I loved history at primary

1104
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:27,240
school.
And I actually remember reading

1105
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:28,960
horrible history books.
And the reason I remember them

1106
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,120
is because I loved it sounds so
silly because it's almost the

1107
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,360
most irrelevant bit.
I loved the drawing.

1108
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,080
I loved drawing the characters
and the little quotes and things

1109
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:37,040
like that.
It's not irrelevant.

1110
00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:38,640
Yeah.
But like, it got me hooked in.

1111
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,160
Do you know what I mean?
And, and by the time I was that

1112
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,760
14 year old, I actually remember
getting becoming really

1113
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,040
disengaged of history.
I still enjoyed the stories and

1114
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,320
from the past, but I just didn't
want to write an essay about it.

1115
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,120
I just didn't want to then write
the do the cue cards and do the

1116
00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:54,840
and do the exam.
I just became disengaged with

1117
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,040
history at school and yeah, I
think that's I think it's tough.

1118
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,840
I think as teachers we have to
battle this all the time and but

1119
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,200
we're up against lots of
constraints like the fact that

1120
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,080
the curriculum we have to
measure some things.

1121
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,280
So I guess I want to round up
this chat about school and

1122
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,640
curriculum and and everything
with just thinking about your

1123
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,200
child.
I guess because you you're

1124
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:12,840
you've got a six year old.
You said right, just.

1125
00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:14,400
About to be 6.
Yeah.

1126
00:52:14,720 --> 00:52:17,000
So you've got a really
interesting perspective now

1127
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,600
because you're going to get to
watch your child go through

1128
00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:22,600
primary school.
And I guess just maybe it's a

1129
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:24,360
bit of a summary because we've
probably said all these points,

1130
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,440
but what what is the best
outcome here?

1131
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,160
What do you want your child by
the end of primary school?

1132
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:33,520
What's a win for you regarding
how they've learned history?

1133
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,480
I am.
I mean, it's such a good

1134
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,800
question, isn't it?
Because I thought, I suppose as

1135
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,000
a historian you kind of hope
your child will immediately go,

1136
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,000
oh, I love history, it's my
favourite.

1137
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,840
But obviously sometimes when,
when daddy's a bit too precious

1138
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,440
about a subject, you get the
rebellion and then suddenly it's

1139
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,440
their least favourite subject.
So I might need to be kind of

1140
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:55,680
careful in being a big gloves
off.

1141
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:05,040
I'm obviously what I really want
my daughter to, to experience is

1142
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,760
the joy of learning.
I love learning.

1143
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,480
I've always loved learning.
There were subjects I wasn't as

1144
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:12,680
good at, I wasn't as good as
maths, you know, at maths and

1145
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,680
chemistry I found a bit tricky.
And there were subjects I always

1146
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,840
sort of have to sort of work
quite hard at to kind of get up

1147
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,320
to speed.
But I love learning.

1148
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,480
I love the experience of
discovering something new.

1149
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:27,360
I'm really, really excited by
it.

1150
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:29,160
That's what I'm hoping she'll
get.

1151
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:32,040
That's what I hope any child
will get from a formal

1152
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:35,640
educational setting is yes.
You want them to absorb some

1153
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:37,360
information.
It'll be fantastic if they can

1154
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:40,080
get some key skills that they
can take with them into later

1155
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,720
life.
You know, one thing we haven't

1156
00:53:42,720 --> 00:53:46,040
mentioned, but I often bring up
if you train someone to be a

1157
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,400
historian, by definition, you're
trained them to also understand

1158
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,440
media culture, to understand
source analysis, which makes

1159
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:54,840
them safer and better at
navigating the Internet.

1160
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,440
They're going to be more likely
to be able to spot when they're

1161
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,160
being manipulated or lied to by
political propaganda.

1162
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,480
They're more likely to
interrogate something that pops

1163
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:06,200
up on a screen from AAI source
that's actually wrong.

1164
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,240
You know, AI is the big
existential threat that's coming

1165
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,040
for formal education because it
hasn't been properly tested and

1166
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,960
it hasn't been properly examined
yet.

1167
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,800
And it's just been rolled out
into our world.

1168
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,280
And I'm it's that for me is also
very worrying.

1169
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:23,480
And I'm sure there are many
teachers who are probably

1170
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,680
finding AI helpful.
And I don't want to be like the

1171
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,600
killjoy, but that's also going
to be a huge challenge.

1172
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,640
Children are going to grow up in
a world where AI offers them

1173
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:37,640
endless, limitless knowledge,
but they won't be taught to

1174
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,280
interrogate that knowledge.
They'll be presented with this

1175
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,120
little AI summary or ChatGPT
summary that says here's what

1176
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:44,440
Stalin said.
Yeah.

1177
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:45,520
Well, did he?
Yeah.

1178
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:47,080
Yeah.
Where's that from?

1179
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,200
Where have you got that from?
What book is that drawn from?

1180
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,920
What source is that drawn from
if it's just off the Internet

1181
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,960
and it must be true.
Well, we know as adults who've

1182
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,320
grown up with the Internet, we
know that stuff off the Internet

1183
00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:59,280
is not default.
True, Right.

1184
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:01,760
And and the.
Extra layer which you said which

1185
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,960
is also stuff changes anyway,
even literally literally.

1186
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:07,880
Even if it's out of a book, I
still could be wrong.

1187
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:12,080
So, so the, the huge issue we're
going to have, I think is any

1188
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,280
generation starting now, you
know, my daughter generation

1189
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:20,200
growing up are going to be
engaging with a an increasingly

1190
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:25,080
sort of simplified digital
experience of information, which

1191
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:30,880
is going to make it so much
harder for them to find their

1192
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:35,120
own information and source it
themselves and build a case and,

1193
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,040
and sift and go, yeah, maybe,
maybe a bit of this and a bit of

1194
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:39,600
that.
And I need to think, you know,

1195
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:41,680
if, if there's a little robot
that just goes, here's what you

1196
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,960
need to know, then never going
to have to ask a question again.

1197
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:50,640
And that isn't good for us.
It's, you know, AI may prove

1198
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:54,280
super useful.
It might prove massively, you

1199
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,560
know, pedagogically, you know,
important for teachers.

1200
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:59,000
It may well change the world in
a positive way.

1201
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:02,360
But what I'm seeing in the short
term is worrying me a lot as

1202
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:07,000
someone who, whose job is trying
to foster conversations and and

1203
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,680
thoughts about how we engage
with information about the past,

1204
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:14,120
how we think about the past,
because the past is important,

1205
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,160
right?
The the past is in many ways the

1206
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:20,400
collective human experience it
there are lessons within there.

1207
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,040
There are, there are kind of
patterns and trends we can look

1208
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:27,440
at, but also to study the past
is important because it allows

1209
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:31,080
you a kind of an empathetic
process where you, you take

1210
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:33,440
yourself out of your own life
and you try and put yourself

1211
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,240
into someone else's life.
You're trying to understand what

1212
00:56:35,240 --> 00:56:37,560
it was like to be different.
What's it like to be a Roman?

1213
00:56:37,720 --> 00:56:39,000
What's it like to be an
Egyptian?

1214
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:42,160
Why did they believe the gods
were so active in the world?

1215
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:45,440
Why do they believe that if you
poured holy water on a statue,

1216
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:47,680
the statue would come to life
and would be, you know, why?

1217
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:50,800
Why did they have these sort of
ideas of transformation and

1218
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:52,440
mummification into gods?
Why would that matter?

1219
00:56:53,240 --> 00:56:58,560
If you can develop and foster
empathy by asking children to

1220
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:02,640
think about others, I suspect
you end up with a kind of class

1221
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:04,720
of, you know, a whole generation
of citizens who might be a

1222
00:57:04,720 --> 00:57:08,400
little bit more empathetic with
their fellow people, that they

1223
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,840
might be a little bit more
tolerant and kind and welcoming.

1224
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:18,960
And they may be more able to
contend with the way in which

1225
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,000
the news is fired at them by
certain organisations.

1226
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:23,120
And they might go, well, hang
on.

1227
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:27,000
Why should I be scared of people
other than myself?

1228
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,040
You know, why should I be scared
of people coming to this country

1229
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:32,280
as refugees fleeing war and
violence?

1230
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:34,640
You know, maybe I should be
welcoming or kind or at least

1231
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,160
ask questions about why are they
here?

1232
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,880
You know, I think, you know, not
to get all kind of political

1233
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:41,880
about it, but like I.
Think we like that here?

1234
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,200
We like that.
Here I think if you if you train

1235
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:48,640
children to think, but you also
ask them to Honda what it's like

1236
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,200
to be someone other than
themselves, I think you get a

1237
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:54,440
better person at the end of it.
And the information and the

1238
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:56,320
knowledge is lovely.
The measurables as you talked

1239
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:58,680
about is lovely.
But I'm also interested in

1240
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:02,120
developing the soul, developing
the person, developing those

1241
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:05,320
soft skills that make them good
communicators and good friends

1242
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,000
and good colleagues.
And one day, hopefully good, you

1243
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:11,520
know, good members of society
who have good jobs that pay well

1244
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:13,840
so they can enjoy their lives.
You know, all these things we

1245
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,840
care about.
I think a good historical

1246
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:19,000
education starts you on that
journey.

1247
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:20,200
I'm.
Starting to get the feeling

1248
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:22,240
here, Greg, that you actually
like history quite long.

1249
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:25,880
It's all right.
It's, it's a really holistic

1250
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,440
view and I think it's really
interesting and, and it's lovely

1251
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,000
to hear you're passionate about,
about it and everything you've

1252
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:32,760
said is true.
I, I think history is extremely

1253
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:34,280
important.
It's almost to the point where

1254
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,880
it's like not a surprise, is it
that firstly, the teachers on

1255
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,600
our poll history was right at
the top of that poll.

1256
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:43,600
And secondly, maybe that's all
we need to learn each other

1257
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:44,760
subjects, everything from
history.

1258
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:47,280
But but just to quickly pick up
what you said, Greg, I the

1259
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:51,640
reason I loved your answer is
because it almost said what I

1260
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:55,000
want my child to get from the
education experience isn't

1261
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:57,160
really good history teaching
like that.

1262
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:58,720
That was kind of like a vessel,
wasn't it?

1263
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,680
Almost of Yeah, but also good
geography and good science and

1264
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,600
good critical thinking.
And it's these it's these actual

1265
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:05,880
skills.
And this is what I want our

1266
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:08,400
listeners to get out of this.
That history is amazing because

1267
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:12,240
it builds these skills and these
skills are transferable.

1268
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,760
And the reason it's so powerful
and important is because those

1269
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:18,280
skills can be used across the
board, not only in the

1270
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:21,680
curriculum, but as a human
being, as someone listening to

1271
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:23,720
this podcast, someone might
listen to this podcast and

1272
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:25,600
think, well, these three are all
involved in history and

1273
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:26,800
education.
Of course they're going to be

1274
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:29,160
passionate about history.
What is the other point of view?

1275
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:31,320
If you're thinking that now
that's fantastic.

1276
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:33,480
You don't have to automatically
agree with what we just said.

1277
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,000
Go and do some research and then
come back to us and then agree.

1278
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:39,560
That's fine.
But but my point, my point is I

1279
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:43,160
loved the answer because when I
defend history and I feel like

1280
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,120
sometimes I have to defend it
because people are, you don't

1281
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:46,520
know everything.
How can you possibly know what

1282
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:48,880
happened 400 years ago?
I don't really know.

1283
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:50,960
But I'm basing it on what I've
seen.

1284
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:53,040
I'm basing it on what's put in
front of me.

1285
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,480
I'm basing it on who said what.
And do you know what?

1286
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:58,320
That's how I shape my worldview
in general.

1287
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:02,440
I just apply it to the past and
I'll then try and apply it to

1288
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:03,760
things that happen in the future
as well.

1289
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:07,200
I think it's a beautiful answer.
And also history can be science,

1290
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:10,200
it can be geography history that
can be biology.

1291
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:13,480
History can like you know, you,
you can do a geography lesson

1292
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:15,680
about rivers.
And immediately the first thing

1293
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,480
that you want to say about river
obviously is that rivers are

1294
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:23,200
hugely important navigable
routes by which people have

1295
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:26,800
travelled throughout history.
And where do people build their

1296
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:28,760
cities in the past?
They build them on rivers, while

1297
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:30,160
they're building on rivers.
You.

1298
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:32,200
Exactly end up being history as
well, doesn't it?

1299
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:34,560
When you do?
Of course it does in France.

1300
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:36,720
Don't they teach history and
geography as one lesson?

1301
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:39,960
I think.
I think they, because my mum's

1302
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,880
French, so I, you know, and
she's, she's be a teacher.

1303
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:47,000
So I'm sort of on your side.
But I, I think, I think there's

1304
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:49,680
a in France as a little bit more
kind of joined up approach to

1305
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:53,160
these things.
And the idea, you know, we have

1306
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:55,320
these sort of, you know, there
is sort of famous historians

1307
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:57,320
like, you know, who wrote about
like the lingerie, which is the

1308
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:00,080
idea of history as like across
thousands of years, what have

1309
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:01,600
you.
What if you stopped looking at

1310
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:03,560
like the Romans?
What if you just looked at like

1311
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:08,040
the Mediterranean as a subject
and all the ways in which people

1312
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:11,280
have used the Mediterranean and
it has been part of their life.

1313
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:13,960
And around the Mediterranean you
have the Egyptians, the

1314
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:17,520
Phoenicians, you have the
Greeks, the Romans, you've got

1315
01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:20,920
the Carthaginians, you've got
these amazing civilizations who

1316
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,120
had differences and and also
similarities.

1317
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:24,960
They developed different
languages, they shared their

1318
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:28,720
languages.
You know, our word alphabet is a

1319
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:32,640
kind of Greek version of a
Phoenician word, Aleph Beth.

1320
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:37,520
And we got our alphabet, the
Greek alphabet from the the

1321
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,480
Phoenicians, right?
So there are things that we do

1322
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:41,800
every day.
You know, my daughter learning

1323
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:47,520
phonics or whatever phonics is
fascinating because that is how

1324
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,760
we speak now.
And why do we speak this way

1325
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:51,240
now?
We speak this way now because

1326
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:54,800
our language is the mutation of
multiple languages smushed

1327
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:56,880
together.
And there are elements of

1328
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:58,600
Germanic in there.
There are elements of Old Norse

1329
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:00,680
in there, the word law, the word
knife.

1330
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:04,720
They're Viking words, but
there's Greek in there too.

1331
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:06,840
There's Hindi in there.
There's going to be words from

1332
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:08,920
China in there.
There's going to be words from

1333
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:12,200
Persia in there.
There's going to be French, of

1334
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:15,240
course, but a kind of inflected
Norman French, which was kind of

1335
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,600
a bit Viking Y.
So just the language we've used

1336
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:23,080
in this podcast is the history
of the world, just this very

1337
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:25,120
chat.
The fact we can communicate with

1338
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:28,960
each other is because we are
speaking a shared language.

1339
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:32,400
But that language is many, many
languages that have been pushed

1340
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:36,160
together through various
interactivities of movements, of

1341
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:39,080
people, of trade, of
colonialism, of violence and

1342
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:43,520
war, of technology, of, you
know, people looking for simpler

1343
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:47,680
ways of doing things.
And the fact that we have

1344
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:49,840
language is amazing in its own
right.

1345
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:51,960
You go back to the Stone Age,
you know, obviously to bring

1346
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:54,240
back to the book I just read.
But like, you know, there's

1347
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:56,360
fantastic debates.
In fact, we have a debate in the

1348
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:58,280
book, Brennan and I, we debate
in the book, when did it?

1349
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,360
When did language evolve?
How old is human language?

1350
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:04,480
Did Neanderthals have language?
Did Homo erectus have language?

1351
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:06,520
Or did just just Homo sapiens
have language?

1352
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:10,400
Like, there are amazing
scientific questions that are

1353
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:12,600
sprung up when you start with
history.

1354
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:15,920
There are amazing geographical
questions that spring up when

1355
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:19,800
you start with history.
Why are typically the richer

1356
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:22,120
parts of cities in the West, not
the east?

1357
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:23,840
Well, it's because of prevailing
winds, right?

1358
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:25,840
Why would that matter?
Well, because in the Industrial

1359
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:29,400
Revolution, smog and pollution
blows in One Direction.

1360
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:31,720
So where do you want to live?
If you're rich, you want to live

1361
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:33,200
away from the smog and
pollution.

1362
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:35,080
So why do cities now look a
certain way?

1363
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:39,840
Well, because the geography of a
city is influenced by the wind,

1364
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:44,440
by the rivers, by the the
temperature, by the climate

1365
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:46,960
control, you know, what can be
grown in the nearby area.

1366
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:51,240
You know, it's science,
geography, human experiences,

1367
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:55,080
language, food.
You know, I think we haven't

1368
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:59,240
talked about food, but I love
food as a, as a place to start a

1369
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:02,240
history lesson.
I love saying to kids, what's

1370
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:05,160
your favourite meal?
What do you really want is on

1371
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:06,600
the dinner table tonight when
you go home?

1372
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:08,160
What, what's you know, what
you're looking forward to

1373
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:10,160
munching?
What's your favourite snack?

1374
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:12,640
And they'll tell me and it's,
you know, sometimes it's Curry,

1375
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,360
sometimes it's pizza, sometimes
it's crisps or, you know, they,

1376
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:18,200
they're ice cream fans or
they're like, oh, I'm really

1377
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:22,360
into bangers and mash or fish
and chips or, or whatever.

1378
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:24,400
And I always go and where does
that come from?

1379
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:26,680
Where did that start?
Where does that history begin?

1380
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:27,840
And they always go, what do you
mean?

1381
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:29,240
I say, where did it begin?
And they go.

1382
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:31,240
I've seen that.
And then no, no, no, my friend,

1383
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:32,720
Yeah, it started in Sainsbury's.
It.

1384
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:34,520
Started in Sainsbury's.
And a man brought it in a van

1385
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:37,360
and I will say, where did it
start?

1386
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:39,120
And they go, well, what do you
mean?

1387
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:42,280
And I said, well, OK, if it's
bangers and mash or potatoes are

1388
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:45,160
from South America.
They were a crop grown in the

1389
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:47,080
Andes.
So how did they get to Europe?

1390
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:49,640
And there you go, You're into
the New World colonisation.

1391
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:51,080
So you're starting with the
conquistadors.

1392
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:53,200
You're talking about Bizarro and
you're talking about the

1393
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:54,560
introduction of potatoes to
Europe.

1394
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:57,280
But people didn't eat potatoes
for 200 years in Europe because

1395
01:04:57,280 --> 01:04:59,760
they were terrified it would
give them leprosy because

1396
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:01,920
they're all lumpy and gnarly.
And they believed in a thing

1397
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:04,480
called doctrine of signatures,
which is the belief that foods

1398
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:07,280
can cause illnesses that look
like the food.

1399
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:10,120
So a thing that looks like the
thing they believed in, that

1400
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:12,440
sort of medical idea.
So a lumpy, gnarly thing,

1401
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:13,920
they're like, well, that'll make
you lumpy and gnarly.

1402
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,760
We don't want that.
So they didn't eat potatoes for

1403
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:19,800
200 years and they fed them to
horses or prisoners of war.

1404
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:22,440
A famous prisoner of war was a
man called Parmentier, who's a

1405
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:24,880
French guy.
He was captured by German

1406
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:26,520
troops, I think it was.
They fed him potatoes.

1407
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:29,360
He went, these are delicious and
I feel pretty good actually.

1408
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:31,920
And he escaped from prison and
he got back to France and he

1409
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:33,760
went, I think we should be
eating potatoes.

1410
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:36,480
And people went, Nah, no,
because he leprosy.

1411
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:38,480
And he went, I don't think it
does because I've eaten them and

1412
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:42,000
I feel good, actually.
And so he set about a sort of

1413
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:45,080
psychological operation to
convince people to eat potatoes,

1414
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:46,680
and so did Frederick the Great
of Prussia.

1415
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:49,600
And lo and behold, we now love
potatoes.

1416
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:54,280
But it took two centuries of
people coming around to the

1417
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:56,080
idea.
So you can start with something

1418
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:58,400
as simple as what's on your
plate for dinner.

1419
01:05:59,400 --> 01:06:01,200
And you can go anywhere in the
world.

1420
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:03,800
If it's Curry, you're back to
South Asia and to India.

1421
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:08,800
And if it's if it's ketchup, you
are into the tomatoes and the

1422
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:12,680
Aztecs tomatoes are introduced.
It's not an Italian thing that

1423
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:14,880
was introduced into Italy.
And when tomatoes first showed

1424
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:16,040
up, people thought they were
disgusting.

1425
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:17,520
They didn't like them.
They grew them in their garden,

1426
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:19,040
but they thought they were foul
tasting.

1427
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:23,240
History of chocolate, Aztecs
history of sugar, coffee, tea,

1428
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:26,120
ice cream.
You can go anywhere in the world

1429
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:29,920
by starting with their dinner.
And you can reveal in that

1430
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:33,160
lesson the history of
colonialism, of trade, of

1431
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:36,280
empire, of war, of people
moving, of people bringing their

1432
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:38,440
foods with them.
You know, bangers and mash is

1433
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:40,720
the story of Belgium, but it's
also the story of Jewish

1434
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:44,320
immigrants.
You know, there are amazing ways

1435
01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:48,840
to get into big history through
the simplest, most accessible,

1436
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:51,560
most universal thing, which is
what's for lunch.

1437
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:54,400
And from there, the whole world
is your oyster.

1438
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:58,480
And that for me is really
exciting because every kid eats

1439
01:06:58,480 --> 01:06:59,800
lunch.
Yeah, exactly.

1440
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:01,480
That's what I was going to say.
You're going.

1441
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:04,240
To if, if you ask your kid
what's important to them, it's,

1442
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:07,240
it might sound silly, but what
they eat is like top three

1443
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:09,480
genuinely like it's a big part
of their day.

1444
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:13,760
So yeah, any, any kind of hook
you can find as a teacher is

1445
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:15,960
invaluable.
And I guess that's, I wanted to

1446
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:18,240
pick your brain a bit to kind of
round this off because we have

1447
01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:19,640
lots of teachers listening,
obviously.

1448
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:22,760
And teachers, as you know,
through your chaotic history

1449
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:25,720
series of books you're writing,
we go through kind of segments

1450
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:27,400
of history eras.
Yeah, call them that.

1451
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:29,880
So you've done the ancient
Egypt, you've done the Stone

1452
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:31,640
Age.
Was it the Greeks was the 3rd or

1453
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:33,680
the Romans?
Roman Britain's book, Roman

1454
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:34,640
Britain's Greeks.
I'm.

1455
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:35,760
Writing now.
Yeah, right.

1456
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:37,160
Brilliant.
So eventually, you know you're

1457
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:39,680
probably going to go.
Through all of them as as a

1458
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:42,040
teacher, just just giving you
that all of history.

1459
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:45,600
There you go, all of history
ever, please, as as a as a

1460
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:47,720
teacher.
I think what's really powerful

1461
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:50,920
is what you just said in terms
of you can start off with a fact

1462
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:53,480
or something interesting.
Think of Horrible Histories when

1463
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:55,760
you sat around that table, like
you said earlier, and someone

1464
01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:57,200
goes what?
And you think, Oh, that's a good

1465
01:07:57,200 --> 01:07:59,680
one.
So in terms of I'm sorry, this

1466
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:02,120
is going to be quite a, a
wide-ranging question, but take

1467
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:05,640
it wherever you like.
What what for you would be one

1468
01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:08,880
of your favourite historical
facts that you think you could

1469
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:10,440
share with teachers listening to
this?

1470
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:13,080
It could be from the Egyptians,
from the Romans or Stone,

1471
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:16,399
whatever it might be where a a
teacher might be able to say it

1472
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:19,560
and get that what reaction from
a child and hook them in.

1473
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:23,279
I guess I've got a few.
I guess it depends on your

1474
01:08:23,279 --> 01:08:25,640
lesson and so on.
I mean, there are there are some

1475
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:29,600
sort of classics, the, the one
I've sort of drawn to at the

1476
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:31,720
moment just because it's so
interesting and it's more of a

1477
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:33,040
science thing.
But it's a Stone Age thing.

1478
01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:35,920
But there were over 20 species
of hominins before humans.

1479
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:42,600
Before us there were over 20
species of uprights walking Homo

1480
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:46,880
type creatures, people of sorts
who were not humans like us.

1481
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:48,720
So we know some of them
Neanderthals, right?

1482
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:50,319
Most kids are going to herd of
Neanderthals.

1483
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:54,120
They may have heard of Homo
erectus, but they're not going

1484
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:56,840
to have heard of Homo Denisova,
who was only discovered very

1485
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:59,399
recently thanks to DNA.
They found a tiny finger bone

1486
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:01,240
and that was enough to find a
brand new species.

1487
01:09:02,279 --> 01:09:07,920
They're not going to have heard
of Australopithecus or or

1488
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:15,359
homonylid or Homo floresiensis,
but there are over 20 species of

1489
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:21,160
people who want people, species
who were not quite us, but they

1490
01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:23,840
were our cousins.
They were close enough and they

1491
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:26,520
might have evolved into
something like us, but we shared

1492
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:30,080
the planet with them for a long
time. 50,000 years ago there

1493
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:33,120
were at least four, if not five
of these species alive at the

1494
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:35,040
same time.
They would have met, they would

1495
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:37,880
have bumped into each other.
We know Neanderthals and Homo

1496
01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:41,200
sapiens into bred because, well,
three of us will likely have

1497
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:43,560
about 2% Neanderthal DNA.
Wow.

1498
01:09:44,319 --> 01:09:46,560
So anyone of European?
Heritage.

1499
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:51,680
So anyone whose family history
is white European going back is

1500
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:54,880
several generations will have
about 2 to 3% in the animal DNA.

1501
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:58,400
If you're of African heritage,
you won't because they met in

1502
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:01,120
Europe.
They met in Europe 40,000 years

1503
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:05,560
ago and that's extraordinary,
right?

1504
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:09,040
So that's mad.
That to a kid, I think is worth

1505
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:12,400
pointing out.
There are 20 extinct species of,

1506
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:16,360
of almost human who were a lot
like us, but not us.

1507
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:19,440
We are the exception.
We're the only ones who

1508
01:10:19,440 --> 01:10:21,760
survived.
Why did we survive?

1509
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:23,800
We don't know.
But what is it that we, you

1510
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:26,600
know, that's that's made me
think of five questions like

1511
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:27,080
that.
Like what?

1512
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:30,920
He said there like a good a good
fact and a good hood makes you

1513
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:33,080
think of OK, there are 10.
Ways I can?

1514
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:35,520
Take this now, which can be
daunting for a primary school

1515
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:37,680
teacher who feels like they
don't have the expertise.

1516
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:40,840
But I think what we can say to
teachers now is embrace it.

1517
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:44,760
Say you don't know, but but it's
but it's still a good thing that

1518
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:49,000
children are hearing something.
I'm going what about XYZ?

1519
01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:51,320
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean another one would be.

1520
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:56,520
Queen Cleopatra is closer to the
iPhone in history than she is to

1521
01:10:56,520 --> 01:11:00,360
the Great Pyramid.
Now that's an absolute classic.

1522
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:02,240
You'll see that quite online
quite a lot, because that's one

1523
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:03,640
of those sort of blow your mind
facts, right?

1524
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:07,080
What we mean by that is the
pyramids were a technology or

1525
01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:09,520
they're a way of expressing
architectural sort of, you know,

1526
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:11,600
supremacy, whatever.
They were phenomenally

1527
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:15,000
complicated.
They were abandoned as a

1528
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:19,240
technology prior to the New
Kingdom.

1529
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:25,280
So they are used for, you know,
a good number of centuries, but

1530
01:11:25,280 --> 01:11:27,480
they are not used for the
majority of Egyptian history

1531
01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:29,680
because Egyptian history is so
long.

1532
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:34,000
It's over 3200 years long.
Cleopatra is right at the end

1533
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:36,600
and she's Cleopatra the 7th.
No one ever knows.

1534
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:38,920
They never they never realised
there are 6 Cleopatra's before

1535
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:40,400
her.
That's crazy.

1536
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:46,480
So she has, she's closer in time
to us than she was to the

1537
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:50,160
pyramids from the civilization
that we associate her with.

1538
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:54,960
So the pyramids were ancient
history to ancient Egyptians.

1539
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:56,760
Do you know what I was about to
say?

1540
01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:58,920
Because I've I've heard.
That fact before and I was

1541
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:01,360
thinking I hope this is in the
same vein, but I've started

1542
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:05,000
Egyptian like lessons on Egypt
with my year sixes in the past

1543
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:07,800
by saying ancient Egypt.
Ancient Egyptians studied

1544
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:10,640
ancient Egypt.
They're always like what?

1545
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:12,520
Because every other.
The topic we've, well, the

1546
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:13,960
topics.
I've been doing in that.

1547
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:16,400
Year group have all been quite
sure it was like World War 2 and

1548
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:20,360
stuff so for them they're like
what and yeah I think like in

1549
01:12:20,480 --> 01:12:22,480
summary you didn't hear when you
hear when you talk about all of

1550
01:12:22,480 --> 01:12:25,760
this firstly you are a teacher I
know at the start you're worried

1551
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:29,640
you were like you know I don't
want to say things as if I'm

1552
01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:32,480
because I'm not formally trained
in education but genuinely

1553
01:12:32,480 --> 01:12:34,400
hearing you talk and every
teacher listen to this will be

1554
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:37,800
thinking Oh my God you would be
unbelievably phenomenal in the

1555
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,320
classroom because you have the
same skills you know I said at

1556
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:42,640
the beginning our skill sets are
very very interlinked and very

1557
01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:46,720
close that's putting yourself in
a pedestal there yeah you're.

1558
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:50,200
Just saying no, but like there's
the crossover is huge.

1559
01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:52,040
You know what I mean?
Because our job is to tell those

1560
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:55,640
stories to children to get them
inspired and you know, stories,

1561
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:56,920
these stories better than
anybody.

1562
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:59,480
So it's like, but you have you
have a lot more experience.

1563
01:12:59,480 --> 01:13:02,600
Of handling kids who aren't
getting it of, you know, I don't

1564
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:05,400
have to deal with the children
who aren't enjoying my work

1565
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:06,520
because they can just switch
off.

1566
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:08,920
They can just put my book down.
I can't do anything about it.

1567
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:11,160
I can't go around their house
and sort of try and turn them

1568
01:13:11,360 --> 01:13:13,480
back onto the the subject and
say, look, you know, give me a

1569
01:13:13,480 --> 01:13:16,640
second chance if they switch off
my podcast, if they put down my

1570
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:19,800
book, I've lost that battle.
And so obviously that's why I'm

1571
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:21,480
using comedy.
That's why I'm using laughter

1572
01:13:21,480 --> 01:13:22,800
and jokes.
That's why in Horrible Histories

1573
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:26,040
we use songs and parodies of
21st century pop culture.

1574
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:28,280
So they would recognise the
thing and laugh and go ha, ha,

1575
01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:29,240
ha.
I know that.

1576
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:32,000
And then obviously you're you're
giving with one hand, taking

1577
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:34,160
with the other because you're
doing the Michael McIntyre

1578
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:37,120
observational comedy of like
you, you know what this is, Yes,

1579
01:13:37,280 --> 01:13:39,440
but then the same time you're
then going, but this is

1580
01:13:39,440 --> 01:13:40,800
completely different to
everything, you know.

1581
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:43,840
So you're kind of push pull,
push pull is is really fun

1582
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:46,640
there.
But I I don't have the training

1583
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:49,000
you do and I don't have that
hardcore experience of getting

1584
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:51,800
up in front of a class and it
not working and having to pivot

1585
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:55,160
and figure out a plan BI only
ever get a plan A.

1586
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:59,080
So that doesn't mean that I'm
I'm better at my job because I'm

1587
01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:00,880
clearly not right.
I'm probably would struggle in a

1588
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:02,560
classroom because I don't have
that experience.

1589
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:04,840
But I suppose what I've
developed over the years, I

1590
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:09,320
think, I hope is a way of making
sure that the Plan A is

1591
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:12,760
inclusive, brings every kid
along, no matter who they are,

1592
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:15,840
where they're from, you know,
what their family situation is,

1593
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:19,240
what they're into, what they,
how academic they are.

1594
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:22,680
My hope is that every kid gets
something out of my books and

1595
01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:25,360
podcasts.
Some will need maybe more

1596
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:27,840
support than others.
Some might need a parent or a

1597
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:31,320
guardian or a sibling or a
teacher to sort of, you know,

1598
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:34,360
give them a little bit of extra
support in enjoying my work

1599
01:14:34,360 --> 01:14:36,920
maybe.
But my hope is that the stuff I

1600
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:40,960
do feels like every kid can pick
it up and go, oh, this is cool.

1601
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:41,880
This is for me.
Great.

1602
01:14:42,160 --> 01:14:43,360
Thanks very much.
That's lovely.

1603
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:46,240
And the totally chaotic history
series, you know, as I said,

1604
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:48,120
it's for kids aged sort of eight
up.

1605
01:14:48,480 --> 01:14:50,720
It's also kind of the parents
and teachers.

1606
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:52,960
Like that's sort of in my head.
What I was thinking a bit was

1607
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:57,320
like, how do I write a book that
is full of information and

1608
01:14:57,320 --> 01:15:01,000
knowledge, but also as a way of
of processing through cause and

1609
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:02,440
consequence?
Because the books are pure

1610
01:15:02,440 --> 01:15:05,160
chronology, they start at the
very beginning and they go

1611
01:15:05,160 --> 01:15:07,840
forward at 100 miles an hour to
the very end of the subject.

1612
01:15:07,840 --> 01:15:10,640
So there is no scattergun
approach.

1613
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:12,400
You know, I love the Horrible
Histories books.

1614
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:14,400
They're obviously incredibly
important, but they obviously

1615
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:17,640
are and they're a little bit
more thematic and you you jump

1616
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:20,600
around a little bit more.
Whereas the challenge of totally

1617
01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:23,440
chaotic was how do I start at
the beginning and get to the

1618
01:15:23,440 --> 01:15:25,440
end?
Because I know that teachers

1619
01:15:25,440 --> 01:15:27,920
were struggling with that with
the Stone Age and I and I'd met

1620
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:29,560
parents who were saying
something similar.

1621
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:32,080
And so with ancient Egypt,
you've got 3 1/2 thousand years

1622
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:33,800
to get through with the Stone
Age.

1623
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:38,240
We do, we do 34,000,000 years.
We we start with tree.

1624
01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:39,280
Shrews.
So we are all.

1625
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:43,560
Evolved from tree shrews and
34,000,000 years later here we

1626
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:45,280
are on a podcast.
That's all we need to tell

1627
01:15:45,280 --> 01:15:48,080
people that's done like that's.
Chronology, Baby.

1628
01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:49,960
That's.
Amazing.

1629
01:15:50,160 --> 01:15:51,160
So.
So yeah.

1630
01:15:51,160 --> 01:15:54,240
So it's, it's I'm, I feel very
lucky to have my job and I'm

1631
01:15:54,240 --> 01:15:56,000
very grateful for you.
You can give me the space to

1632
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:58,200
sort of talk to you guys because
it's really interesting to hear

1633
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:01,200
are similarities, but also some
of the approaches that are

1634
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:03,160
slightly different.
But what I just want to sort of

1635
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:06,320
say on it as a final point point
I think is that when I write for

1636
01:16:06,320 --> 01:16:09,560
kids, I'm I'm often writing for
parents, guardians and teachers.

1637
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:12,760
And when I'm writing for adults,
I'm often kind of writing for

1638
01:16:12,760 --> 01:16:15,320
kids.
Like there's a sort of in my

1639
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:17,000
head.
I'm trying to make sure that

1640
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:20,200
even though maybe the the tone
is different, that there is a

1641
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:23,640
sort of universality to this and
that if you listen to my adult

1642
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:24,960
podcast, you know, You're Dead
to me.

1643
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:27,120
I hope that there's quite a lot
of information in there that a

1644
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:29,440
teacher or a parent or a
guardian would be able to fill

1645
01:16:29,440 --> 01:16:34,320
it out and repackage for a kid.
And, and, and we're going to

1646
01:16:34,320 --> 01:16:37,800
hopefully start doing this sort
of children's podcast that's

1647
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:40,480
repurposing existing You're Dead
to me episodes and making them

1648
01:16:40,480 --> 01:16:42,840
for children kind of make it
work.

1649
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:48,240
So, so yeah, I'm always trying
to find ways of of unifying the

1650
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:50,960
family dynamic or the
generational split and sort of

1651
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:53,240
go, well, why can't we all agree
that this stuff is interesting?

1652
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:55,360
But obviously when you're
writing for kids, it's got to

1653
01:16:55,360 --> 01:16:58,320
look fun, vibrant with sort of
wacky, you know, illustrations

1654
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:00,040
and vibrant, colourful front
covers.

1655
01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:05,720
But actually, I tend to treat
kids like smart grown-ups, but I

1656
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:08,280
just make sure that I don't make
anything too difficult and then

1657
01:17:08,280 --> 01:17:10,680
for them to process.
But I'm, I'm going to, I'm going

1658
01:17:10,680 --> 01:17:12,800
to teach, you know, I'm going to
treat them with the same respect

1659
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:16,040
I'm going to give to a 45 year
old because they deserve it.

1660
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:18,160
But also they're capable of
keeping up.

1661
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:20,960
And that's the huge thrill of
writing for kids.

1662
01:17:21,680 --> 01:17:23,960
Absolutely great your
enthusiasm.

1663
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:26,880
Pours through and as as someone
who loves history myself and

1664
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:29,880
taught it for so long, it it was
so nice to chat with you about

1665
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:32,760
this and hear that.
I think we're on the same page,

1666
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:35,160
to be honest.
I think history is inspiring.

1667
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:37,040
It's fun.
I can imagine those Celtic

1668
01:17:37,040 --> 01:17:39,520
history books up on the
bookshelf when we when you're

1669
01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:41,400
teaching that unit, the kids
picking it up.

1670
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:44,960
And if we're fostering this
curiosity and like you said,

1671
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:47,880
treating children, I I want to
pick up very quickly on what you

1672
01:17:47,880 --> 01:17:52,080
said about with respect and, and
not not being condesced sending.

1673
01:17:52,080 --> 01:17:54,600
I'm not trying to water things
down too much for them because

1674
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:58,040
quite often children are from
their experiences and their

1675
01:17:58,040 --> 01:18:00,600
vocabulary held back a little
bit from their but from their

1676
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:02,760
curiosity and their desire to
know things.

1677
01:18:03,120 --> 01:18:05,640
It's more than that of the
average adult, if anything.

1678
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:09,320
So we've got an opportunity to
to really push history as a

1679
01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:12,840
subject and not only then get
better historians, but more

1680
01:18:12,840 --> 01:18:16,120
importantly, better people.
I think so, Yeah, it's it's been

1681
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:17,240
great.
Thank you so much.

1682
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:18,720
Pleasure.
Thank you for having me on.

1683
01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:23,520
If you enjoyed that chat one,
check out all of Greg Jenner's

1684
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:25,280
work.
It's unbelievably good.

1685
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:26,960
If you're an adult and you're
into history, You're Dead to Me

1686
01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:28,280
is an amazing podcast to listen
to.

1687
01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:31,880
And if you're an educator, the
Chaotic History series is

1688
01:18:31,880 --> 01:18:34,960
something I can imagine in every
single classroom when they're

1689
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:37,880
doing their unit on history.
Because so well written from

1690
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:40,200
someone who wants to make
learning fun and engaging.

1691
01:18:40,200 --> 01:18:42,840
So why not check it out now?
If you enjoyed that chat, leave

1692
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:45,040
as a review and share it with
someone who you think might find

1693
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:46,680
it useful.
We'll catch you next time for

1694
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:47,840
another episode of THT.
Repeat.

1695
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:48,280
See you then.