Ep 140: Learning Through Play & Continuous Provision: Why Child-Led Learning Is So Powerful!

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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to another episode of Teach

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State.
Repeat.

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My name is.
Dylan and my name's Hayden.

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And this week, we are taking a
deep dive into the world of play

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and continuous provision for our
learners.

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I say we, we're not.
Are we not me and you I?

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Just didn't really fancy being
there, no?

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I didn't really want to do it,
so I will be talking to Ruth

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from my mummy teacher.
She is a huge advocate for play

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continuous provision, not just
in the early years but

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stretching that out even further
into key stage 1.

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And basically we're going to be
chatting about why it's really

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important for our younger
general generation to have that

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ability to play and what we even
mean by play.

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Not break time, not running
around, just skipping rope.

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Actual quality learning through
play and.

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Afterwards we'll be then
reflecting and I get my chance

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to have a say as well, if you
want to listen to that.

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I mean, you could just, you
could honestly, I don't normally

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say this, but when we finish
talking, you know, just.

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You're going to kill the
retention of the podcast here,

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then this is not a good thing.
Yeah.

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So do stick around to the end to
hear my thoughts.

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Yeah, on everything they talk.
But I'll tell you what, you, it

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will be genuinely really
interesting because you've, even

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more so than I have spent so
much of your career really at

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the top of key Stage 2 at Year
6, thinking about Sats and

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Tests.
And we talk about that as well

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in the chat.
It's a really, really good chat.

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I'm looking forward to you
listening to it.

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And we'll break it down after.
But without further ado, let's

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get chatting to Ruth.
Hey, Ruth.

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Thanks for joining us.
Hi, Dylan, thank you so much for

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having me.
I'm actually really excited

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because Hayden's not here
pestering me and trying to, you

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know, get get those questions in
before I am.

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So we're going to dive in today
to your story, your background,

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your your professional career as
a teacher and a leader.

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What made you step away from
that and your passion for play.

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So before we get into all of
that, if you wouldn't mind just

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outlining to our listeners, what
is your story?

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What did you do in school and
what made you eventually think

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I'm going to stop doing it now?
Oh I love that.

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So hopefully as it's just
happened, the big banner fell

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down behind me, but hopefully
that won't happen.

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I was so hoping we were
recording.

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I was going to get a little
outtake and everything.

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It's like doing the assembly,
isn't it?

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And you're standing in front of
600 kids and then something

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happens and then everything goes
to part.

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But we used to it.
We're teachers.

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We think on athletes.
We roll with it.

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We.
Adapt, we go on.

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So my story is, is very much
that I would take that word,

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adapt, go on, and that would
sort of lead me beautifully into

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my story.
So I was a teacher, that's all I

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wanted to be.
I always say this to people.

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I am that girl that when I was
seven years old, I asked my mum

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and dad for a whiteboard for my
birthday.

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You know, like I didn't want a
Tamagotchi or a cabbage pack

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doll.
I was literally like, I really,

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really, really want a
whiteboard.

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Like one of those proper ones
that you get from like a

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stationary shop.
And I used to play and, you

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know, my dolls would sit down.
I was pretending to be the

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teacher.
My brothers used to like I'm the

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eldest, so they probably hated
me for it.

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But you know they sit.
Down I'm the teacher here.

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Listen to me.
Absolutely.

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It's all I ever wanted to do.
Basically became a teacher.

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I taught in three schools and
quite different.

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Majority of them were in quite
deprived areas.

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We had a lot of the typical
issues that you would have

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within a school like that.
I did teach in one sort of

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affluent area as well.
So got a sort of good span of

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what it's like to be a child,
what it's like to be a teacher

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and loved my job, genuinely
loved it.

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I look back now that I'm out of
teaching and realise, Oh my

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goodness, how did I do what I
did?

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But if you'd have asked me at
the time if I was like didn't

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like my job or anything like
that, I would have, I wouldn't

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have even said like any.
I'd have been like, I love it, I

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love it.
This is what I do.

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But now I look back and I
realise, Oh my goodness, I was

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living unlike no sleep
OverDrive, like my nervous

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system must have just been a
wreck.

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But I did love it, put
everything into it and I didn't

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want to leave.
And the reason that I did leave

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was I was a deputy head teacher
and I was having my little boy

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and I wanted to go back part
time.

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So this was like 5, well, nearly
six years ago, five, 5 1/2 years

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ago now.
So I do think things have

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changed slightly since then in
terms of flexible working like I

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do here.
There are there is like a

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different stance.
Ironically, actually the Academy

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chain that I worked for, they
put on their LinkedIn a few

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months ago that all flexible
working policies will now be

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accepted.
This five years ago.

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And my, the lady who was like my
head teacher, who I worked with,

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she sent it to me and I was
like, Oh dear, five years too

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late.
But actually it wasn't five

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years too late.
Because this is, you know, it's

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flexibility, it's adaptation.
And, and life takes us on a

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journey.
Like I truly believe we are

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where we're meant to be when
we're meant to be.

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So at the time when I requested
part time I was basically told

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it had to be full time or become
class teacher again.

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So give up on my leadership
position and now if you know me

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well, then you'll know that
that's not like I couldn't do

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that.
I was like, I've worked hard to

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get to this position.
Like this is what I want to do.

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You're being penalised almost at
that point, aren't you, for for

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starting a family and wanting
some time back yourself?

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100% and I would have done four
days.

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It's not like I was saying can I
come in one day a week and leave

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the school?
I just needed a day that I could

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be with my son and not be doing
like washing and this and that

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and life and as it goes.
So I said, OK, I'm going to

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leave.
I don't know what I'm going to

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do, but I'm not going to come
back.

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And at the time that was so
hard, like I think like for

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myself, but my own development
and your confidence is knocked.

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You genuinely feel like, Oh my
goodness, like I've given my

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life to this school.
I love it.

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But some person and essentially
like an ivory tower has made

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this decision that like senior
leaders can't work part time in

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our trust and that's it.
And you can't help but take it

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personally.
And I loved my kids, but

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ultimately I loved my own SO
even more.

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And when?
You when you say with you, it's

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when you say that out loud.
There are some people who listen

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to what you just said.
There'll be some people out

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there who think, well, yeah, you
know what?

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You chose that, but, well, did
you choose it?

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Really.
Like, should we even be in a

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position where we're forcing
professionals like yourself

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who've worked so hard and gained
so much experience and clearly

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would be amazing for children to
have four days a week?

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You're still going to be
fantastic at doing that.

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It's it's so sad that we're kind
of forcing people out of the

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profession, I feel like.
And and it's a loss, isn't it?

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Losing people like you in a
school is a loss.

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And we just, I'm, I'm so glad.
Like, I know it's annoying five

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years too late, but I'm so glad
that schools are moving too.

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Do you know what?
We're in a retention crisis

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right now.
And if I'm going to just make an

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arbitrary rule up which just
says, well, I don't fancy that.

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Actually, I don't think we want
that.

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You're going to lose amazing
people like yourself. 100% that

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is, that is exactly what has
happened.

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Like I've seen so many amazing
colleagues that have gone into

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other things and it, and it is,
it's awful.

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Like it breaks my heart.
And but yeah, everything happens

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for a reason.
And I didn't know what I was

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going to do, but I realised that
actually now I could do

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anything.
And that was quite liberating.

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It's quite.
Liberating, isn't it?

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It's like, oh, wait a minute, I
have got these professional

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skills and these abilities, I
can still apply them to

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something else. 100% like I had
those the few days where I sat

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like, and then I was like, what
are you doing, Ruth?

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And it's evolved.
So I worked in my second school.

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I worked for a head teacher who
was brilliant, was amazing.

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I don't think I realised at the
time how much of an impact he'd

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have on my life.
But at that point I really

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wanted to be key stage phase
leader.

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And I was class teacher and he
like pulled me into his office

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and he said the problem is like,
you don't know what your thing

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is.
He was like, I don't know what

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what your thing is.
Like what do you stand for?

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What are you going to lead on in
education?

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And I remember leaving his
office and being like, what does

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he know?
I'd be a great tell.

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Me what I am and I'm not.
But honestly, not like that

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stuck with me.
And I don't think I really knew

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what my thing was because
actually I was in a system.

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I was doing what I was told to
do.

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And this became more apparent
than ever in the very last

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school where I worked where
there was quite a few changes,

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like we became academies, there
was new leader.

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It was a lot of things changed
and the way that I'd always

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ruined my classroom was very
play based and I taught children

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who were, I had mixed year 12
class at this point.

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Some of those children that were
in my class developmentally were

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working around 3 years old if
not younger and I had some

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severe like complex needs in
there.

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I had children with English as
an additional language.

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I had children with like the
most horrendous safeguard

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situations that you could
possibly think about, like their

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home life.
I just cannot imagine what they

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carry on their shoulders and
would bring into that building

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every single day.
And through the way that I

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taught them, honestly, like play
was so powerful and I genuinely

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believe that being able to teach
my children in a play based way

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was everything those children
need.

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It was their therapy, it was
their opportunity and their

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space away from whatever their
home life was, regardless of

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whether they were like in the
affluent school or in the socio

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economically deprived school.
All children have home lives

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that we can't even imagine
behind those closed doors and

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play.
When we allow children to play,

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the toys that they use are like
their words and their play is

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their language and it's how they
process.

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So just like for you, for
example, if you something sad

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happens in your life or
something amazing happens in

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your life, we might go onto
social media and we put a post

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out and say something horrific
happened to you.

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Like, Oh my goodness, I can't
believe this has happened.

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It's made me feel like this.
It gives you you've processed

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it.
I was feeling this.

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I've put it out there in my
words, however works for you now

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I feel better.
And children need that too.

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And the way that children do
that is through play.

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So it was so powerful for
supporting them to just feel

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regulated, to feel one, to
almost just feel just right, to

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be able to learn the best that I
could give them.

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You know, I can't, I don't have
a magic wand.

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I can't wave this stick and, and
take everything away from them.

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But I could do my best.
I could give them the tools, the

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time and the space to just be
into process.

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So I felt like it was their
therapy.

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It made them feel good and
that's what I wanted.

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But also for these children,
again, I had some really like

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high Flyers.
Like I've always remembered this

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one boy.
I just again, like the

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background that he came from,
how incredibly intelligent he

227
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,400
was and creative and smart on
it.

228
00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,640
I used to just say to him, I was
like you, you blow my socks off

229
00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,200
all the time.
I'm like, you blown my socks off

230
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,200
again.
Like it was just such a pleasure

231
00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:58,440
to have like a little impact on
his life and push him, like be

232
00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,600
able to push him in a way that
was that was playful and joyful.

233
00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:07,000
And so play as a vehicle for
learning allowed me in that

234
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:12,320
moment to really support my
learners that were working to

235
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:16,960
work towards that were
definitely pre key stage that

236
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,920
had been through early years,
had been to nursery.

237
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,600
But actually when they went to
nursery reception early years,

238
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,280
they weren't ready for that.
Then they weren't ready.

239
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,920
So they were in the building.
You know, the teachers had done

240
00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,760
their best for them.
But then they they'd come to

241
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,400
year one and actually they
essentially they needed another

242
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,840
year of early years.
They were then ready for early

243
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:43,640
years.
I'd be like, now you're ready

244
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,760
for early years, but now you're
in year one.

245
00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:50,040
Yeah, and I just was like, you
know what, They need another

246
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:51,960
year of early years.
That's what I'm going to

247
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,360
essentially give them.
So I could be practical.

248
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,160
My learning could be multi
sensory.

249
00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,760
My learning didn't have to be
like, you have to do this now,

250
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,120
right now, because this is what
I'm going to say you've got to

251
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,960
do because that's the way it is.
My learning would be OK, go and

252
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:09,720
do that.
Then when you feel ready, let's

253
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,200
have a go at this.
And so I could support children

254
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,600
to be more intrinsically
motivated.

255
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,600
I could teach them from the ages
of five.

256
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,240
These are these children in my
class who actually take some

257
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,480
ownership over.
I am going to have a go at that

258
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,760
and I do want to do that and I
am going to be a successful

259
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,640
learner.
But I just need to do XY and Z,

260
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,040
get that out of my head or feel
a little bit better and then I

261
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:36,720
can commit to it and I'm going
to get it done.

262
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,760
And obviously there is a time
and a place.

263
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,640
So certain things in life or in
learning or in a classroom, yes,

264
00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,880
we have to do it here and then
we have to do that.

265
00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,840
But actually, actually, 9 times
out of 10, we can be more

266
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,920
flexible.
I want you to do the best you

267
00:13:54,920 --> 00:14:01,160
can do and for me, you will do
the best you can do when you're

268
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,200
doing it, when you're ready to
do it, however that looks or

269
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,400
however that feels.
So yeah, that was it basically.

270
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,520
I saw that play was amazing for
well-being.

271
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,560
I saw that play was amazing for
getting children to learn.

272
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:16,520
I could push them through their
play.

273
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,760
I could help them become curious
independent learners more.

274
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:21,800
They didn't need to be spoon fed
as much.

275
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:27,200
Like the conversations were
fantastic that I would hear and

276
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,560
in allowed me to like really
work with smaller groups and

277
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,640
really push those children on as
well as really support my

278
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,560
younger learners with the
practical element and those

279
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,480
sorts of things.
So then I suddenly realised,

280
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:43,840
well, play, play is my thing.
I.

281
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:45,760
That's my thing.
You found it.

282
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,200
I was like this is my thing.
You should have run that head

283
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:50,640
teacher up.
I found it.

284
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,360
I've got it.
No, I do think like one day I'm

285
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,080
like, maybe I should, maybe I
should get in touch with them

286
00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,600
and be like, you actually
realised the impact you had.

287
00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,520
But.
Even though I was doing my

288
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,080
thing, even though I knew my
thing was play.

289
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,520
Now I realised play was my thing
when it got taken away.

290
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,040
This.
Is what I was going to ask.

291
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,720
I realised that's like it was my
thing because I was just doing

292
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,000
it.
I didn't really know anything

293
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:19,640
else.
This is just how I did it.

294
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,280
This is just what it was like we
had.

295
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,040
Was it, was it just was it
frowned upon?

296
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,480
Was it banned?
Was it, you know, was it someone

297
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,840
coming in and saying actually
end goals?

298
00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,040
You know, I'm looking at end of
the school career.

299
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:32,880
They're not going to be playing
when they're in year 6.

300
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,280
So, you know, they just get used
to it and get over it.

301
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,280
Or was it just very much that's
policy, Sorry, get over it.

302
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,040
So we got taken over by an
Academy.

303
00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:47,080
We had a new executive head and
that's when for me, I suddenly

304
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,280
realised, Oh my goodness, this
is so hard.

305
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:53,400
So obviously I was deputy head
teacher, so I was within that

306
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,040
school.
I was that senior authority

307
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,640
figure.
I had to kind of follow the law

308
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,440
of the land like this is the way
it was.

309
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,120
But up until that point I've
sort of been able to really put

310
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,160
my own influence on it.
So it was fine, you know, it was

311
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,480
great.
And then they came in and it was

312
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:19,880
this like trust wide policy.
So key stage 1 became so formal,

313
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,520
like I will never forget.
I used to have this gorgeous

314
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,440
little role play area in my
classroom.

315
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:26,800
It was handmade, it was from
wood.

316
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:28,720
It was literally like a wooden
frame.

317
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,600
And in there it was like we
could just change it into

318
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,240
whatever the children could make
it, whatever they wanted to do.

319
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,800
And the one day she came in and
she was like, why, why have you

320
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,480
got why have you got a role play
class in area in a year one and

321
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,880
two classroom?
And I explained, like, you know,

322
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,800
some of these children can't
even form a sentence speaking.

323
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,120
How are we going to get them to
write a sentence when they don't

324
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,080
even have chance to practise
talking a sentence?

325
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,960
And we've just been there to
model that and help them with

326
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,080
that and all those social skills
that they're learning, you know,

327
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,319
that's crucially what they need.
I just remember saying something

328
00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:08,160
like that that to her and she's
like, well, that's not what they

329
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:14,119
need and that needs to go.
So I had to take that out of my

330
00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,800
classroom.
When you did that, sorry, when

331
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:18,920
you, when you took down your
class because I'm so fascinated

332
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,000
by this because I think up and
down the, the country, there's a

333
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,400
lot of teachers in this position
where they know their children

334
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,280
best and they think This is why
I'm doing it.

335
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,200
But then they're told, well,
there's a policy and although

336
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,040
there might be 5 ways to do
something, you're doing it this

337
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,400
way and that's the end of it.
How did, how did it make you

338
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,280
feel Literally taking that down
and taking out the classroom

339
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,640
when you know full well there'll
be children in your room now in

340
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,520
your class who won't get as much
out of your classroom as they

341
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,080
did before.
Like what did that make you feel

342
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,680
like?
I remember going home to my

343
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:53,920
husband and saying to him, I'm
in a battle with my head and my

344
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:58,800
heart because my head is saying
this pays our bills.

345
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:04,000
This is the dream job I always
wanted, this is what I have to

346
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:05,960
do.
You also start to doubt

347
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,480
yourself.
Well, someone more senior is

348
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,040
saying that actually that's not
what they should have.

349
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,520
So maybe I have got it wrong.
Maybe that is what they need.

350
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,720
And then my heart was saying
like, don't be so ridiculous.

351
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,560
That is not what they need.
Like you're going to be failing

352
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,200
these children.
I know again, that's a massive

353
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:32,040
word to say, but genuinely that
is what I felt because I knew

354
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,800
what they needed.
And suddenly what they needed

355
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,760
was I was told I had to take
away.

356
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,400
So there was a battle in my head
and my heart.

357
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,760
And I just remember I used to
say to my husband, I was like,

358
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,560
this is my job, I'm going to
work.

359
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,160
It pays for nice things.
I'm going to go on holiday.

360
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,000
In my head, I was like, this is
what it is like.

361
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:03,120
I had to compartmentalise what I
believed inside of me, my heart,

362
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:08,000
and this is what I have to do.
And you know, like the role play

363
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,120
was one example.
And then the next thing to go

364
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:13,760
was my gorgeous, like, creative
area.

365
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,240
So I had this really nice
trolley where we'd put like, you

366
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,520
know, paints and art and the
kids can go and access that

367
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:26,280
whenever they needed to, or we'd
have groups over there and that

368
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,640
had to go as well.
And it all just started.

369
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,280
And then things got introduced
like they had to do whole class

370
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,880
reading and they all had to sit
on their chair or that was

371
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,160
another one.
I had like a group of children

372
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,120
that were struggling with a
maths concept.

373
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:42,640
So I'd got them on the floor.
I mean, we're just using

374
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,240
something like little hair bears
to do it practically.

375
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,080
And again, I remember this as
clear as day.

376
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,960
The executive head walked around
with the CEO and came into my

377
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,720
classroom and saw me like on the
floor with these kids.

378
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,160
And then after that, she was
like, you don't ever sit on the

379
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,160
floor again with them.
Like why?

380
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,160
Why?
Why?

381
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,840
Like honestly, it winds me up a
bit because I just think to

382
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:09,880
myself, there's two, there's two
prongs.

383
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,960
This, I suppose one is as a
professional teacher, like just

384
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:14,720
leave me alone.
Like I'm not, I'm not sat on the

385
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:16,800
floor to make a point at you.
I'm sat on the floor because in

386
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,720
this moment it's better for the
children to be in this situation

387
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,880
helping me.
But the second one I think of,

388
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,440
and maybe this, when you had
your children, you flipped

389
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,160
slightly in your mind.
I've got a 2 year old, a 2 year

390
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,520
old son now.
And I think about when my son

391
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,920
goes to school, if he's in a
situation like you just

392
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,840
described on the floor doing
some maths, I want that for him.

393
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,560
Everything you've described and
taught so passionately about

394
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,000
play, which was so nice to hear
by the way, when you were

395
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,160
talking about it a second ago,
because you clearly a passion of

396
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,760
yours that's embedded in it
being good for the children.

397
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,160
And when I think about my own
child, I want him in that

398
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,720
environment when he can go and
do role play for a minute if he

399
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,920
needs to, where he can go to a
creative section.

400
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,840
And what, what I don't need is
someone coming in telling the

401
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,960
teacher that that that my son is
with all of the time what is and

402
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,640
is is is right and is wrong for
them, especially when it's an

403
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,760
opinion.
And actually we can go even

404
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,800
further and say it sounds as if
from the the posts I've seen

405
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,480
from you, it's not even an
opinion.

406
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,320
Play based learning is fantastic
for the children and that's what

407
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,080
frustrates me.
Yeah, exactly.

408
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,440
There is.
There's noodles and oodles and

409
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:21,840
oodles, the one of a better
word.

410
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:25,760
That is the weirdest word I've
ever used.

411
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:28,440
The executive head would not
like you to use oodles actually.

412
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:29,480
Thank you.
We won't be finding that

413
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,720
dictionary.
That is far too playful of a

414
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,360
word.
Playful words banned.

415
00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:35,840
We don't want them.
We don't want them anymore.

416
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,280
We've got a list of 200 words
and they're the only ones You

417
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,080
can say thank you.
And no, it's not on there.

418
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:42,160
You can't tell me no.
Oh.

419
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,800
Geez.
Yeah, exactly.

420
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,040
So the, you know, the research
behind play isn't just something

421
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,560
that's a nice to have or an
extra aura.

422
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,680
You know, this is something that
kids might enjoy.

423
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,640
It's an enrichment opportunity.
Don't get me started on that.

424
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,000
I feel like there's so there's
so much to break down here.

425
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,120
I know.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

426
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:07,120
Let's let's, let's stick to,
let's stick to the research.

427
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,920
Yeah, if, if you just think
about them.

428
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,680
OK, let's stick to for a second
because I've got a question

429
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:15,320
about the practicalities of it
as well.

430
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,160
So maybe we can do both here.
Where one is the, the research

431
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,480
seems to me from what I've seen
and what I've seen you post and

432
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,040
what I've gone away and read
myself is that play based

433
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,160
learning is a really good way,
especially for younger children

434
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,840
throughout key Stage 1, even
even though it's not statutory.

435
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:30,400
And we'll talk about your
petition in a minute.

436
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,280
It, it seems as if the, the
research is saying this is a

437
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:34,840
really good way for children to
learn.

438
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:39,440
Maybe it's my key stage 2 mind
that comes into play here where

439
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:40,920
we don't really have any play
based learning.

440
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,520
When I'm teaching my year fours
or fives or sixes that I think

441
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,360
to myself, that's fantastic and
I completely agree with what

442
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:49,280
you're saying.
And I want my son in a room like

443
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,120
yours that you're describing.
But how practical is it when

444
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:57,560
when you do have freedom for
children to go and play and

445
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,920
explore and and do all the
things they're doing as they go

446
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:05,080
through year one and year 2, and
that gap tends to become wider?

447
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,800
The lowest child and the highest
child attaining it sounds like

448
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,120
you can hit them all.
But how practical is it in a

449
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:12,760
classroom?
How can you make it happen?

450
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:18,200
How can you do it effectively?
OK, first of all, the biggest

451
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,040
thing you need to know is that
children are capable.

452
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:27,400
Children are so capable when we
allow them to be now traditional

453
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,720
teaching methods that we've all
used that we've all had to that

454
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:37,480
happens in our schools now is
how England is they enable our

455
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,080
children to you'll, you'll see
like short term gains.

456
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:45,720
So I can teach my children to a
test essentially and the data

457
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,680
will look good because I've
taught them to this test and I

458
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:54,160
have got that short term
compliance, but it undermines

459
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,360
that long term resilience, that
long term well-being, that long

460
00:23:58,360 --> 00:24:00,600
term engagement that I want to
do.

461
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,160
Whereas if I learn through a
play based approach, that

462
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,200
strengthens all of those things.
So actually you're saying, well,

463
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,560
how practical is it when a
child's in year 2 or year three

464
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,360
or year 4, if they've had a play
based approach to their learning

465
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:22,880
continued from early years, they
will be the most inquisitive,

466
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:30,360
curious, like fascinated,
problem solving, enriched

467
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:36,400
children you could imagine.
And when children are given the

468
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:44,200
opportunity to learn rather than
be like, for want of that famous

469
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:49,880
quote, like an empty vessel to
be filled, you see a shift in

470
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,440
our children.
So, you know, the research shows

471
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,040
that this has over 50 years of
research.

472
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,920
And it's not just within
education, it's within

473
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:03,880
neuroscience, it's within
psychology, it's within

474
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,480
education, it's within play.
It all aligns.

475
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,960
I've actually got a research
document that I've put together

476
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,880
for the petition and to to
support people.

477
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,480
So maybe we could pop that in
absolutely.

478
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,360
Show notes down below, we'll
link to the petition and we'll

479
00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:22,560
link to all that as well,
definitely.

480
00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:25,680
Because people always say to me
like, can I read this, this

481
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:26,600
research?
And I'm like, yes.

482
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,120
You are.
It's here.

483
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:32,080
Please do.
So I worked with one of my

484
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,960
friends who's called Doctor
Wills Apellini and we put this

485
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,120
document together and so we can
put that there.

486
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:44,280
So in terms of how does it, how
would it work, practically all

487
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:49,360
children will be different.
Now if tomorrow we suddenly went

488
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,440
OK, every classroom in the whole
school's play based, would it

489
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,400
crash and burn and go to
collapse and all the teachers be

490
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,120
like, Oh my God, what has
happened?

491
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,480
Probably yes, it would because
children haven't been allowed to

492
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,240
learn in that way for at least
the last like 15 years in key

493
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,760
Stage 1 long.
I don't think they've ever

494
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,280
learned like that in key Stage
2.

495
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,040
But in some schools, there are
schools, there's some amazing

496
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:16,920
schools.
I've done case.

497
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,520
I've read case studies on them
that actually have continuous

498
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,440
provision up to the end of year
6.

499
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,680
Right.
That, that very quickly on that,

500
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,600
that, that is fascinating to me.
And I, I, I want to be, I, I, I

501
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,520
want to be able to provide that
for kids as well.

502
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,040
And I think it's great.
And on continuous provision, you

503
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,080
mentioned about, about play,
because continued provision is

504
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:37,520
another thing.
I think if you're an upper key

505
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,000
stage teacher, you might have
just like heard of and not been

506
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,520
sure about, but with continuous
provision, that's from my

507
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,520
understanding very much how you
implement it as well.

508
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,840
So like embedded hearing, what
does it look like in a

509
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,880
classroom?
Well, continued provision is

510
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,120
something and in your petition
you say do you know what, we get

511
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:57,360
it in early years, we need to
make it statutory at least for

512
00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,200
key Stage 1.
So maybe yeah, if you could just

513
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,240
outline to people listening
saying I've heard of continuous

514
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,600
provision, but what's it's link
to play and what might it look

515
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,920
like?
So your continuous provision is

516
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:13,280
essentially the environment the
the provision that is set up all

517
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,680
the time for your children to be
able to access.

518
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:21,120
You don't really change it, but
what is in it enables the

519
00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:24,200
children to play.
So it's things like, you know,

520
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,720
your blocks, your cars, your.
Your house that you had in your

521
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,360
in your room, your creative
corner that you got taken away.

522
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,720
The role Playhouse that I had,
and as children develop, that

523
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,720
changes.
So what we put out for them

524
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:44,000
developmentally adapts, changes.
There's some things that we'd

525
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,120
continually put out.
There's some things that we

526
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:47,920
change.
So you might put like a hammer

527
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,360
and nuts and bolts.
You can do that in early years,

528
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,200
but actually with our year six
children, we might really use a

529
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,120
hammer like.
You're.

530
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,240
Going to trust children.
I mean, really, risk assessment

531
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,600
kids.
We're not saying don't do risk

532
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,720
assessments, guys, doesn't mean
it doesn't mean we don't really

533
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,920
do this safely.
But you're going to essentially

534
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,400
give them the access to your
provision that they can access.

535
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,080
You might have loose parts in
there.

536
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,000
By loose parts I mean objects.
Basically it's just things.

537
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,800
It could be like a natural loose
part like fighting pine cones,

538
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,040
or it could be like a man made
and loose part.

539
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,120
Like I'm trying to think of
something like nuts and bolts.

540
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,400
Exactly.
But it's it's from what you're

541
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,640
describing here.
And the thing I think it's a no

542
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,440
brainer is every single child
I've ever seen in the school

543
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,120
benefits from this open-ended
learning where where they lead

544
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:41,400
it.
Like we even even in the more

545
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,240
traditional methods of teaching
that we've spoken about, we

546
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,120
often must start maybe a science
lesson with a big question or

547
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,480
maybe ADT lesson with, OK, how
does this work?

548
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,240
And I think I think you're
absolutely right, even even down

549
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,920
to little things like that, we
can put more of that in when

550
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,480
children are getting older,
which is just trusting the kids

551
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,840
a bit more.
And I suppose what I wanted to

552
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,880
put you as well was this whole
problem, I think, and I think

553
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,960
you summed up perfectly with we
are assessing how good something

554
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,440
is for a child based on what the
end result will be in a test

555
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,680
that we've created ourselves.
And we think, OK, well, in a SAT

556
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,920
paper at the end of year six
that we've decided is the way we

557
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,680
judge children by the way we
we're in control of this.

558
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,920
But because that exists while
I've got to be more form of my

559
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,800
learning more quickly.
And I guess in in your ideal

560
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,160
world, if it is play based and
you know, we're we're thinking

561
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,880
about resilience for the child
and critical thinking and

562
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,280
problem solving and just being
able to be more social and

563
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,280
express themselves.
All of these unbelievably,

564
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,280
undeniably great things for
children when the end of the

565
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,000
school system doesn't really
remotely judge them on that and

566
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,320
schools aren't assessed by that.
Do you think that this change

567
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,280
needs to come hand in hand with
how we judge schools and how

568
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,560
ultimately we judge children
when it comes to formal

569
00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,880
assessments?
Yes, but I also think so, yeah,

570
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,480
IA 100% need think the education
system needs, it needs a reform.

571
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,760
Like for me everything about our
education system in England is

572
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,680
top down.
So what we do in secondary

573
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,600
school, we just push lower and
lower and lower and lower and

574
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,280
lower and lower and lower.
For our youngest children.

575
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,360
We need a bottom up approach.
They acknowledge the government

576
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,960
acknowledged that what we do in
early years works really well.

577
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,800
They acknowledge that play based
learning is critical for these

578
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,480
children.
But once you turn 5, that

579
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,640
suddenly stops.
We know that's not true.

580
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,080
You know, when we look at when
we compare our education system

581
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:45,480
to education systems around the
world, most of them and actually

582
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,520
the ones that are superior to
England have a play based

583
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,600
kindergarten at least, which
goes to the end of year 7.

584
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,040
So even places like Singapore or
China where you think, oh, it's

585
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,880
really, really formal, they
actually have play based key

586
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:01,720
stage one.
It's us that don't.

587
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,960
And then their results are
better at the end.

588
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,760
So do I think it goes hand in
hand?

589
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:13,280
Yes, But I also think that if we
had a play based the best

590
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:18,920
approach to our learning, our
results would be better anyway.

591
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,240
Because I truly don't believe
and just from the way I've

592
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,360
worked with children, my
experience, the what the

593
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:30,800
research shows us, you don't
need to like be brainwashed A

594
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,040
SAPS paper every single day of
your life for a year to be able

595
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,000
to pass it.
I can teach you.

596
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,040
I can develop that love of
learning.

597
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,200
I can set things out within my
environment within that

598
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,720
continuous provision that are
going to test you, stretch you,

599
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,840
enable you to use that thinking
and apply it in a way that isn't

600
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,840
just in a textbook.
So that then actually when I do

601
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,000
my guided teach with you, when I
have you is I'm not not teaching

602
00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,680
you.
You're not playing all day.

603
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:02,120
I'm still doing like my whole
class teach.

604
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,760
I'm still having my groups out
to come here.

605
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,960
But then you've got those in
moments to apply what you've

606
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,040
learned in a way that is not
just pen and paper.

607
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,640
I I think if we have our play
based learning throughout, our

608
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,080
results would improve because
our children would be healthier,

609
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,120
they'd mentally healthier,
they'd be happier, they'd be

610
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,640
they would just use these skills
in real life as well, not just

611
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,040
short term gain for piece of
paper.

612
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,040
So yes, it does go hand in hand,
but the government aren't going

613
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,160
to change that anytime soon.
Well, let's see.

614
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,280
They've got their review, a
curriculum assessment review

615
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,240
coming out soon, which we are
looking forward to.

616
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:51,240
But I did e-mail Professor Becky
Francis, who's leading that, and

617
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,520
I did get a response which was
positive about, you know,

618
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,760
they've heard about Key Stage 1.
So I am hopeful for that.

619
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,320
But well.
Imagine, imagine if you know,

620
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,640
you're pushing and getting
things out there and getting the

621
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,960
conversation started.
Imagine if that new correct

622
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,480
thing comes out and and it
really does, you know, play as a

623
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,640
vital part of key stage 1.
I guess that that does segue.

624
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,200
I was really nicely into your
petition.

625
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,720
I'd just like to talk to talk
about that briefly, which is

626
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,760
you, what you've been pushing
online and you know, again, go

627
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,080
and follow what's your handle on
Instagram for people to come and

628
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,600
follow you?
So it's at my mummy teacher.

629
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:28,520
Perfect.
So you can go and follow and

630
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,160
keep up to date with the
signatures and how they're

631
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,480
growing and getting more and
more.

632
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,440
But let's let's just talk now
then what you're really pushing

633
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,320
at the minute.
And I think you've you've talked

634
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,560
about playing continuous
division and why it's so, so

635
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,000
important, so well.
And I'm I'm really on side here.

636
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,960
So anyone else listening who
thinks that this is important,

637
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,720
they are, it's definitely
someone who should go and sign

638
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,240
your petition.
So what is this petition about

639
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,840
Key stage 1 and play and and
continuous provision and what's

640
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,920
your aim and where are we at
with our signatures?

641
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,800
What's the current situation?
OK, so just before I say that, I

642
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,640
just want to say off the back of
playing Key Stage 2, if you're

643
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,800
thinking, Oh my goodness, this
is overwhelming.

644
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,960
There's absolutely no I could do
that, which is probably what you

645
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,400
are thinking if you're a key
stage 2 teacher.

646
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,920
Me, a key stage 2 teacher here
who's on board and thinks that

647
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,880
still.
That is OK.

648
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,320
You can think those things.
We can do phases like even just

649
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,159
playful learning, even just
taking what you're teaching and

650
00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:25,080
doing in a practical, joyful,
playful way is better.

651
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,120
You don't have to go whole hog.
Like we've got our gold standard

652
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,880
and then we've got our just
making things more playful.

653
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,040
We're going to aim for our gold
standard.

654
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,600
It's a journey.
You're not going to get there

655
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:40,159
overnight, but being playful,
gamify, all of those things will

656
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:41,800
make a difference to your
children.

657
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:48,800
So then after the back of that,
the petition I set this in June,

658
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,679
I think it was June or July,
they've merged into one, don't

659
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:54,280
they?
The day, months in the middle

660
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,680
somewhere, yeah.
Tuesday and I said one day, you

661
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:00,360
know, I just speak to people all
the time.

662
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,840
It's what I speak about, You
know, my business, MMT play, we

663
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,240
sell.
That's what we sell.

664
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:08,440
We sell learning resources to
help people help their children

665
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,600
learn through play.
And I'm having these

666
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,240
conversations and so many times
I'd be at a trade show or I'd be

667
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:17,360
in a school and people would
say, oh, you know, we'd love to

668
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:22,280
do this, but XYZ or I wish that
we could do that, but this isn't

669
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,440
the way it is.
You know, that's just how it is.

670
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,960
The government, the curriculum,
the expectations.

671
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,920
And I just thought, like I said
to at the beginning, I was like,

672
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,880
do you know what?
Now I've left, I can't say

673
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:39,160
anything within reason, anything
within separating and actually

674
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:45,080
I'm not going to be that person
that moans about it and doesn't

675
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,560
do anything.
So I'm just a woman.

676
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,600
I'm just a tit.
I'm not just a woman like God,

677
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,960
that sounds.
Don't take that out of context.

678
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,240
I'm not just a woman, I.
Would clip this podcast.

679
00:35:56,240 --> 00:35:57,920
I'm afraid that's going to be
the headline now.

680
00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:07,280
But I'm just a person with a
passion and proof that play is

681
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,160
the answer.
I all it's this.

682
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,600
It is the solution.
Research shows it as anecdotally

683
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,880
we can show it as we can compare
to other countries like Finland,

684
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,800
Sweden, around the world.
It is the answer.

685
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,760
So I thought, you know what, I'm
just going to do it.

686
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:25,920
People are like, we should do a
petition.

687
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:27,960
Yes, we should, and we're going
to.

688
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,920
I was sat in bed, it was like
11:00 at night.

689
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,840
I was in my pyjamas.
If you go on my socials and look

690
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,000
at the picture when I first put
it on, it is a selfie of me in

691
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,040
my pyjamas.
And I was like, I've just done a

692
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,360
petition and that's it.
And then it got released.

693
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:49,120
And then within the first 48
hours, we had over 35,000

694
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,520
signatures.
Wow, we're now on 76,000.

695
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,920
We need 100,000 by January the
3rd.

696
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,880
If we get 100,000, it goes to
parliamentary debate.

697
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,560
It can have real impact.
So I've been and like amazing

698
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,960
people that have also been like,
this is what I needed.

699
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:14,080
Like I believe this for so long,
but I need, we need someone to

700
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,600
like take the first step.
That's all I did was take the

701
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,320
first step.
Like now, everyone else has to

702
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,600
run with it.
Yeah, yeah, I've done my bit of

703
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:22,480
my pyjamas.
Come on.

704
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,760
And people have been emailing
their MPs.

705
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,680
There's like a template for that
on my blog.

706
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,200
We've met with MPs and it's the
conversation.

707
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,960
So for me, my, my aim is that
this gets to parliamentary

708
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,680
debate, is that that
conversation is happening at

709
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,720
that higher level within the
government.

710
00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:44,960
We are making people aware.
We are asking the questions like

711
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,920
I've got all this research to
show you that play based

712
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,400
learning is the most effective
way.

713
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,480
Please show me yours that says
it's not right.

714
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,560
Please show me yours that says a
formal approach to learning is

715
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:00,960
the best way that children
learn.

716
00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:03,600
Yeah, because they can't at the
end of the day.

717
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,240
Like honestly, we talk a lot on
this podcast.

718
00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:09,160
We say a lot of things where we
always try and make a real

719
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,040
distinction between when
something's an opinion maybe and

720
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,240
when something is just rooted in
evidence and a fact.

721
00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:16,840
And, and every, everything's
pointing me down the road here

722
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,280
of from listening to you, from
seeing the research, seeing what

723
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,240
you post.
It's just better for our kids.

724
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:25,520
And I think that passion like
just shine through when you talk

725
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,920
about it.
And, and people like me are the

726
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,320
kinds of people I'm hoping are
also listening to this podcast

727
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,200
now and going, do you know what
that that is good that this is

728
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:34,920
what our children need.
And yeah, all the all the

729
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,640
worries I might have or the
reasons why I might think it

730
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,840
might not work, etcetera, It all
kind of it just it just pales in

731
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,080
comparison to the impact that it
can clearly have on our

732
00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:46,720
individual people growing up in
our society.

733
00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:49,080
And yeah, I think I think it's
fantastic.

734
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,920
And the the petitions about key
stage one right making it

735
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,880
statutory because is it is it
even mentioned in the curriculum

736
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,760
now for Key Stage 1, is it like
suggested or is it just not

737
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,000
mentioned at all?
So in early years, it's

738
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,440
literally like this is what you
do, this is how kids learn.

739
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,000
And then in key stage one, it's
just follow what they do in

740
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,960
secondary school.
Yeah, it's you're right though.

741
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,680
It's so when you, when you point
out it's so true that it's, it's

742
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,400
top down, it's like we're not
thinking of where you start.

743
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,560
And then when you maybe you
change or adapt or move, it's

744
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,800
just like, well, top down.
I guess early years, they can

745
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,360
play, right?
They're little kids, they always

746
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,400
play.
It's like, no, I think this is

747
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,000
the other thing.
When you say play, some people

748
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,280
think of, oh, what, the 15
minutes at break time.

749
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:29,960
It's like, no, no, no, no, no,
no, no, no, no.

750
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,600
We're talking about structured
play where, yeah, we let the

751
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,080
kids do what they want, but for
your continuous provision,

752
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:36,680
you're allowing them.
You're still doing your

753
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,080
teaching.
Like you said, it's not just a

754
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,400
free for all and just changing
that perspective on play.

755
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:43,400
I think a lot of people will go,
do you know what?

756
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,520
I, I should sign this petition
actually, because my kid, if I,

757
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,400
if you have kids out there, I
want my son Rory to be in a

758
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,600
classroom when he's 6 or 7
embedded in play.

759
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,000
I'll be perfectly honest.
And it, it's a pedagogical

760
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,080
approach, that's what it is,
it's a recognised pedagogical

761
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,560
approach.
And and that's that's what we

762
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,720
want for our children and the
petitions to make it statutory

763
00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:09,080
in Key Stage 1.
That would be the gold standard.

764
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:13,040
But actually for me if and I
know this is happening, so I

765
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,520
went into a school yesterday and
well two schools yesterday

766
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,200
people spoke to me and they are
looking at introducing

767
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,560
continuous provision into their
year one.

768
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:30,480
Now for me, like that is impact
and, and my, my dream is that it

769
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,840
becomes statutory.
My life.

770
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,280
That's my gold standard.
My silver is that we get a

771
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,040
debate in Parliament and we
raise more awareness.

772
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:43,600
But my bronze is to know what
I've got 76,000 people and more

773
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,600
talking about this.
It's a numbers game.

774
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:52,760
If 76,000 people know about
this, then at least 20,000

775
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,360
people are going to be like, I
actually want to do that.

776
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:01,760
And as yesterday showed me, two
people came and said because of

777
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,600
your petition we have now
considered or we are trying to

778
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,120
do this.
And genuinely, that for me is

779
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:13,160
like, I've done something.
You, you've, you've already had

780
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,840
an impact roof honestly and
hopefully through through this

781
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,200
chat and our audience again,
listening to this, even if

782
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,240
they're in the upper key stage,
but they're working in a school,

783
00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:22,600
they're going to start this
conversation with with leaders

784
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,640
and say, look, this is embedded
in research.

785
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,520
We can link down below.
Like you said, the research you

786
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,520
put together and and yeah, and
and like just keep this

787
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,960
conversation going and I'm going
to do a big call to action right

788
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:33,760
now.
Go and sign this petition

789
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,480
because I think it's a petition
worth signing.

790
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,120
I'm going to share it on our
social media as well and yeah

791
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,840
get to 100,000 right let's.
Just do that.

792
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,600
Let's just do that for our kids,
for our kids, and then we can

793
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,920
worry about the how after.
Yeah, yeah.

794
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:50,880
The practicalities, the timeline
don't.

795
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,400
Worry it will happen.
We can help you.

796
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,040
Let's just get it there because
like you said as well, you know,

797
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,560
the government response was
about referred to play as in

798
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,080
playtime.
They didn't even whoever wrote

799
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,360
that, which concerns me didn't
understand.

800
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,880
The petition is for play,
playful learning, learning

801
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,800
through play, whatever you want
to call it in the classroom.

802
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,880
That tells you how how much of a
crisis this is.

803
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,120
Yeah, like they, they, the
people that we're sending this

804
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,840
off to don't even understand
what we're talking about.

805
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,680
Yeah, for sure, Ruth, I've, I've
really enjoyed that chat and I

806
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,040
love your passion about play.
And, and I think if we Fast

807
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,320
forward five years and we see
your gold standard, I think our

808
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,120
children will be in a really
better place in our society.

809
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:39,360
So thank you for everything
you're doing.

810
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,000
You're very welcome.
Thank you so much for having me

811
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,400
to chat.
It's been a pleasure and let's

812
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,720
hope in five years I'll come
back and I've like everyone to

813
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:52,160
say about the last five years.
Well now everyone play full

814
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,360
score.
New gold standard play up until

815
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,680
work, even when you're in work
all the way through life.

816
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:02,880
Amazing.
Thank you so much.

817
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,920
Thank you.
OK, Hayden, are you feeling

818
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,080
threatened now?
It's your position of Co host.

819
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:10,920
Yeah, another person taking my
Co host.

820
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:12,080
So was it the last time?
Alistair Campbell.

821
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:13,920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just, you know, just just a few

822
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,280
people I mixed with.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

823
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,120
No, I honestly, it was a
fantastic chat.

824
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:18,720
And thank you, Ruth as well.
I will say thank you even though

825
00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:20,320
I wasn't there, I would have
loved to have been there.

826
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,240
And also well done because you
actually enjoyed a chat with

827
00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:26,000
Dylan for 45 minutes or so by
yourself.

828
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,920
And that is a, you know, it's,
it's no mean feat.

829
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,240
It's taken me many years to to
master this.

830
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:31,280
I'll be honest with you.
So.

831
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,920
Even I can say that I'm I'm
quite impressed when anyone puts

832
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:35,480
up with me for that long, so
it's a fair play.

833
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:36,880
Thank you.
You know what the sign of a of a

834
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,440
really good chat is genuinely
when you have an expert on like

835
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,200
roof and you're just listening.
Most of that was you just

836
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,200
listening, asking questions and
me not talking at all.

837
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,920
You not talking, generally not
making any noise and just trying

838
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:48,360
to find out more.
And when I was listening

839
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,120
through, I felt like I learnt
loads and the overarching I

840
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,040
wrote down loads of notes and by
the end of it, I thought, do you

841
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,720
know what the thing I really,
really want to get across by the

842
00:43:55,720 --> 00:44:00,880
end of this conversation is that
who am I to like chat?

843
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,320
Well, if you you're going to ask
me my opinion, who am I to

844
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,640
challenge the research?
Like she made a really good

845
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,000
point.
I used to try to challenge her

846
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,680
and like and say, oh, but in the
classroom practicality wise, I'm

847
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:14,560
in year 4.
Like I don't really know what to

848
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:15,880
do.
I don't have to do this.

849
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:17,880
Like, do I really need to?
And there's a test at the end of

850
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,000
year 4, like we kind of just
need to get them to that.

851
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,640
And then there's the key stage 2
Sats.

852
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,760
And yeah, this is all great, but
I need to get them passed this

853
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:26,320
test.
Even though, yeah, sure, we

854
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,560
could decide not to do the test,
but we are, it does exist.

855
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,120
So what do we do?
And she said, well, yeah, that's

856
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,840
cool.
But also it is just a wrong

857
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:35,920
assumption to think that if
you're doing play based

858
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:37,880
learning, you're therefore not
learning properly.

859
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:39,680
Like you can't then do English
and maths as well.

860
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,840
The whole point is you can.
Like it makes a more holistic

861
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,200
child.
And I thought that was really

862
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,200
important.
And she said something really

863
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,320
powerful, which is all the
research is there and it and all

864
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:50,560
of the case studies is all
there.

865
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,320
And it strongly suggests that
this is a fantastic way.

866
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,000
It doesn't suggest it proves
this is a great way to build up

867
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,560
children holistically and guess
what, they become better

868
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,280
learners everything when you
when you do it this way.

869
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,080
And then she said, where's I
want to see the evidence that

870
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:05,920
says this doesn't.
Work.

871
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:06,920
Yeah, I thought that was really
good.

872
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,720
That was such a good argument.
It made me, it just grounded me

873
00:45:09,720 --> 00:45:12,160
because, yeah, I've got, I've
had my opinions and very similar

874
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,120
to you going through, I had my
sort of doubts and questions of

875
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:15,520
like, well, but how do I do it
though?

876
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,680
Like this all sounds great in
ideology and theory, but like,

877
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,040
I'm not sure how to apply this
in my Year 6 classroom.

878
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,200
I don't know what to do.
Like practically, I can't

879
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,080
provide this for 32 kids.
Well, actually, clearly you can.

880
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:26,760
And clearly there's loads of
research out there that says

881
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,600
it's great.
And who am I to say that you

882
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,720
can't do it genuinely Like what?
Why do I get to say shut that

883
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:35,320
down?
Like the toxic like Academy.

884
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,120
Yeah, yeah, Lily.
That she had that came in and

885
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,440
just said, Oh yeah, don't do
that.

886
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,000
We don't have that in a year one
classroom here.

887
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:41,440
What?
What?

888
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:41,720
What?
Yeah.

889
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,520
What just said, oh, this is
really good for the kids, for XY

890
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:46,920
and Z.
Oh yeah, it's not though.

891
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:48,960
Yeah.
But but I just think that's not

892
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,480
what we do in year 1.
And and it's yeah, I agree.

893
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,040
I'm getting to that point now
where I'm just like, look, your

894
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,040
own kind of your own point of
view is obviously important,

895
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,440
right?
But when faced with facts and

896
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,800
cold hard research into
something like this, I, I think

897
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,760
there's always that balance
between, OK, what's my

898
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,760
experience of something and what
does the research say?

899
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,760
And I think in this case with
play, it's just so heavily

900
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,440
weighted towards, well, it's so
clearly good for our kids.

901
00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:20,800
And when the arguments against
it are rooted in, well, it's

902
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,480
just what we've always done this
formal way of doing it.

903
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,000
Well, it's just the problem
because it's hard to implement.

904
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,360
I've not heard anyone argue
against play with a point that's

905
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,040
really strong in, in and of
itself rather than simply like

906
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,880
an inconvenience maybe or, or
something where I just, I just

907
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,360
think, no, it's like, well,
that's not really an opinion.

908
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,040
If you come at me with some
solid research and said this,

909
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,840
this, this, we can have a
discussion and maybe we can have

910
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,160
a hybrid approach.
And I loved what she said about

911
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,120
play can be introduced, not even
necessarily as embedded in your

912
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,240
learning completely, even though
maybe that's what she would like

913
00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:55,400
to see.
And I think that would be good

914
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,280
for the kids.
But you can just introduce some

915
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,880
child LED activities, introduce
some ideas where maybe something

916
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,880
we do already, like in a science
lesson, ask a question, put some

917
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,040
stuff out and see what the
children do to experiment

918
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,160
themselves.
And just moving that towards

919
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,680
them becoming more independent
thinkers, problem solvers,

920
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,560
things that don't necessarily
get judged by the tests at the

921
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,080
end.
And that's the point I was

922
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:16,880
making is that it needs to come
with an overhaul.

923
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,240
And I loved her response because
it wasn't just, yeah, we need to

924
00:47:19,240 --> 00:47:20,880
change everything.
It was, look, the government

925
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:22,440
aren't going to get rid of Key
Stage 2 SAT.

926
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:24,440
So, so great.
I could sit here and say, yeah,

927
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:26,640
absolutely.
Or I can make the other point,

928
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,040
which is fine, keep the SAT, but
we're still going to create more

929
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,520
rounded children who also can
still do English and maths.

930
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,160
It's not an either or.
It's a pedagogical tool where we

931
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:38,680
can still get children to end
goals.

932
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:40,840
And I was like, that's powerful.
That was to me was the most

933
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,800
powerful argument is saying that
we can still have your end goals

934
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:44,600
that you want and they'll be
better at it through this.

935
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:47,240
It's just a better approach for
the majority of children.

936
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:49,400
I truly don't believe.
And also we've said it in

937
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,640
everything we've ever done this
podcast, that there is not a one

938
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:53,880
size fits model for every child
ever.

939
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,760
But clearly the evidence is here
behind play based, play based.

940
00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:59,440
Learning, Well, that's why I
like play based learning, by the

941
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:01,520
way, because we say there's not
one-size-fits-all.

942
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,120
And you might say, well, yeah,
so obviously play is not good

943
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:06,680
for everyone.
Well, no, play by definition is

944
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,520
something that isn't
one-size-fits-all.

945
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,360
It's like it's like a paradox
almost.

946
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:11,640
It's like what everyone should
do play.

947
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:13,720
And it's like, well, you just
said it's not one-size-fits-all.

948
00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:16,400
No, I know, I know that.
But but through play, it's child

949
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,760
LED and children get what they
need out of it.

950
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:20,600
You can get that social support
you might need.

951
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,440
You can get that kind of therapy
that you might need.

952
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:23,800
You can get the learning you
might need.

953
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,160
It's everything.
And I, I just think it's so

954
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,000
powerful.
And as someone who's never

955
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,520
worked in, in key stage 1 or
lower, I look at it and I just

956
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:33,840
think it's clearly working
really well in the early years.

957
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,520
It's such a shame.
It seems to fall off a Cliff

958
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,360
when, when lots of children
enter year 1 and that's it.

959
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,640
Now it's done just because
they're in Year 1 and not

960
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,040
necessarily because what they
need as an individual.

961
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,800
It's like, well, yeah, you were
born at this point in time, so

962
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,000
no longer you will land by play.
And it's like, why?

963
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,560
Yeah, it's just just because.
Oh, that's not good enough.

964
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,440
When she mentioned, yeah, that
child that's she's just as an

965
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,680
anecdote, she was like, oh,
there's that child that comes up

966
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,360
to year one.
It's like, oh, now you're just

967
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,440
about ready to start early
years.

968
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,400
Yeah, yeah, basically.
But you're in year 1 SOS so

969
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:04,840
doesn't matter.
You can't do play anymore.

970
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,400
Because age is your age is more
important than your actual like.

971
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:09,480
Your academic that's broken, but
it just.

972
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,000
Just doesn't make any sense.
But another thing that made me

973
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,320
reflect on a little bit is where
I have had year 6, like you

974
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,560
said, for so many years.
We quite often our school, we do

975
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:18,800
things like memories at the end
of year 6.

976
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,520
It's really quite sweet.
And we get the kids to just have

977
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:23,760
a check of them, a session where
they get to reflect genuinely on

978
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:25,880
things that they've loved about
being in school.

979
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:30,520
And it triggered my mind when
you guys were talking about, you

980
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,040
know, just the holistic side of
learning and play based learning

981
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:35,360
and what is enjoyable.
You talk, you mentioned like the

982
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:37,160
science lessons at the start,
you might do something really

983
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:38,800
fun and hooky and they obviously
all enjoy that.

984
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:42,080
That's the stuff kids remember
when when I every year when I do

985
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,000
memories and I say cool.
What's your favourite thing

986
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,160
about year 4?
It's always, honestly always

987
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:48,720
just one off the cuff thing like
that.

988
00:49:48,720 --> 00:49:50,800
It could be the smallest thing
that you'd insignificant to you.

989
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,320
It was just part of your scheme
of work.

990
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:53,960
And yeah, oh, you have to do
this little experiment at the

991
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:55,120
start.
They remember that because that

992
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:56,440
was really fun.
Oh, is this time that I had the

993
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:57,920
freedom to do this thing that
was creative.

994
00:49:58,120 --> 00:49:59,960
That's the thing they remember
for the entirety of year 3.

995
00:49:59,960 --> 00:50:05,200
Is it all the way up to year 6,
all the way there like school?

996
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,080
I think there's an argument to
say that in not every school,

997
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,120
but school in general with
formalised learning and the push

998
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,440
towards that, something is
becoming so boring.

999
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,320
Like I've said it before it I'm
sure some schools don't do this,

1000
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,040
but it is just a bit boring,
isn't it?

1001
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,960
And uninspiring if you don't do,
if you don't have any of these

1002
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,560
creative hooky elements.
Play based learning is like the

1003
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,400
ultimate counter to this of
like, yeah, let's just make,

1004
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,640
let's make school enjoyable.
You know how we've said before,

1005
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:30,680
what's the point of primary
school?

1006
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:32,520
It's to foster inquisitive
minds.

1007
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,120
It's to make children question
things and and become interested

1008
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,080
in subjects so they can then go
on and study them.

1009
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,000
They want, if they're 16 and
they want to study geography,

1010
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:40,800
great.
Do you know what?

1011
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:42,920
I don't need to tell them all
the stuff they learn when

1012
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:44,240
they're 16 in geography, when
they're eight.

1013
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:46,440
I just need to get them hooked
on the subject and make them

1014
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,480
interested.
And now to me, play based

1015
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,400
learning fits more down that
line of thinking, which I think

1016
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,160
is the way to that we should be
doing primary school more than

1017
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,920
the current way of yeah, but
formalised learning at all

1018
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,400
points because we need to
maximise, we need to maximise

1019
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,120
the marks they can get in this
written test.

1020
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,400
Absolutely right.
I think that's you've summed

1021
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,720
that up perfectly and all I'm
gonna do is clarify and and ask

1022
00:51:07,720 --> 00:51:09,800
you a bit about being bored
'cause 'cause I said we, we've

1023
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:11,920
talked a million times before.
How about actually, sometimes

1024
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,440
children need to feel bored.
Sometimes children need to do

1025
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,680
some things that are boring.
And, and absolutely, I agree

1026
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:19,640
with you, though, it doesn't
mean they're always bored.

1027
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,680
What we're not saying here is
that everything needs to be

1028
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,240
boring all of the time.
And I think we can't eradicate

1029
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:26,120
boredom from schools.
It's not our job to make sure

1030
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,840
children are having the most fun
they've ever had in their life

1031
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,040
in every second of the day.
Of course, we have to learn

1032
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:32,640
things still.
And Ruth addressed that.

1033
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:34,160
You know, she still does her
whole class learning.

1034
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,600
She still does her teaching.
You still have to learn stuff.

1035
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:38,920
You still have to do stuff.
Yeah, there is a, there is a

1036
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:40,880
place in school for.
Do you know what?

1037
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,120
No, the next 1520 minutes we're
doing this.

1038
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:44,840
We're all going to do it.
Sit down, crack on.

1039
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,960
But it's embedded in a culture
of everything, including some

1040
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,760
play, including some free time,
including some child LED

1041
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:53,440
learning.
It has to be that.

1042
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,640
It has to be embedded in that
continuous provision.

1043
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:57,840
We're not saying I should have a
free for all.

1044
00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:00,360
You know, kids run the school,
do what you want all the time.

1045
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,480
There's no rules anymore that I
think I, I honestly think a lot

1046
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,720
of people look at play sometimes
as learning and think, oh gosh,

1047
00:52:06,720 --> 00:52:09,160
no, I'm going to lose control.
Oh gosh, no, the kids aren't

1048
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,560
going to learn stuff.
Yeah, we have to address this

1049
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,520
and we can't just say, yeah,
isn't it lovely?

1050
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,320
It's fancy, It's kids being
engaged all the time.

1051
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,040
No, it doesn't have to be what
what it can be is kids are bored

1052
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:19,800
doing stuff sometimes.
That's part of life.

1053
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,120
But you know what?
The vast majority of what I'm

1054
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:24,960
going to give you is based on
what you need, and you're going

1055
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,160
to lead it for me.
And I think that's so powerful

1056
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,200
and clearly better.
And you will just be less bored

1057
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:31,920
if you have that sprinkled into
your diet.

1058
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,040
You just want every teacher to
think right now, especially if

1059
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,200
you're thinking, yeah, play
based learning is really not

1060
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:38,400
that, like, rooted in our
culture.

1061
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:41,360
Just think back to the last time
that you did do something that

1062
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,320
you might say is a bit more like
play based, like the science

1063
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:45,920
thing, you know, some sort of
activity.

1064
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:47,480
You think yeah, there was a bit
of childhood activity.

1065
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,000
It was quite creative.
They could kind of do what they

1066
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:50,880
want and they were really
inquisitive and interested

1067
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,240
because they had that freedom.
Think backs that lesson.

1068
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,400
And then think about how when
you did the quote unquote boring

1069
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,840
stuff afterwards, the more
formal stuff, how much more

1070
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,880
engaged they were during that
stuff because you allowed them

1071
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,320
that bit at the start.
That is what I imagine this kind

1072
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,000
of sprinkling in does.
It's like it makes the bit that

1073
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,880
was intrinsically more boring
less boring because you inspired

1074
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:11,680
and engaged them with this fun
bit before.

1075
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:16,800
Like the I taking that as a
concept, which I feel like play

1076
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,360
based learning does, by the way,
like if you were doing it really

1077
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,120
well, that's to me, like the
essence of it is taking that

1078
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,760
concept and being like, should
we do that to kids all the time?

1079
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,840
And I'm like, yes, what that
what is school?

1080
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,040
If it's not that it's mad that
we're getting, we've got to a

1081
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:31,920
point where we don't even think
that's what school is.

1082
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:36,240
Surely primary school is exactly
that, all the time sprinkled

1083
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:39,240
into their diet So that
formalised learning when you're

1084
00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:40,080
7.
Yeah.

1085
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:43,160
Isn't like sitting in an office
when you're 42 doing a doing a

1086
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:44,200
job all day.
Like what?

1087
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:45,720
It shouldn't be like that.
Yeah.

1088
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:48,360
There shouldn't be a similarity
between the desk job at an

1089
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,120
office 1717 hours a day, maybe
20.

1090
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:52,400
Three.
Well, we we like to exaggerate.

1091
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,480
So they say 23 hours a day, 20.
3 hours a day and sitting in

1092
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,720
this classroom they should not
be the same.

1093
00:53:57,720 --> 00:53:59,680
It's embarrassing that they're
even like, compared.

1094
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:01,560
So true and I I love that point
there of.

1095
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,320
It makes the boring stuff more
bearable.

1096
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:06,600
We, it still has to exist.
Yeah.

1097
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:07,760
You still have to write stuff
down.

1098
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:09,280
You still have to show me some
evidence of some writing.

1099
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:10,960
You still have to do some bits.
But it's.

1100
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:12,960
Yeah, it's so embedded in a
culture of these kids are so

1101
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:14,680
happy all the time.
They're so engaged, they're

1102
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,600
leading, they're learning.
And those schools, I I've never

1103
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,680
heard of a school.
And please write in, by the way,

1104
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,160
if, if maybe you fit this belt.
I've never heard of a school

1105
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,840
who've expanded their continuous
provision or expanded their play

1106
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:26,800
and been like, oh God, it's the
worst thing we've ever done.

1107
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,000
I've only heard positive things.
And it might be tricky to do and

1108
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,880
it might feel like it's a big
burden to kind of completely

1109
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,240
change what you're doing.
Give yourself some time to do

1110
00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:36,520
it, give your staff some
training.

1111
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,520
And my goodness me, I just, I
just think of the individual

1112
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:41,440
child.
That's all I really think about.

1113
00:54:41,720 --> 00:54:43,920
And I go back to my son.
I think about Rory.

1114
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,840
If there was 2 choices were two
schools that were identical but

1115
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,640
one had continuous provision and
play as a fundamental part of

1116
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:51,680
how they do their learning
further into their primary

1117
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:53,680
school and one stopped early
years.

1118
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,600
I know where I choose my son to
go, the one that does plain

1119
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,280
continuous provision, so much
more throughout the school.

1120
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,000
That's so funny, the next room.
But that's a couple of episodes

1121
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:02,200
ago.
We got asked like what we looked

1122
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,200
for in a school.
I think that's in my top three

1123
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:06,120
because it wasn't when we were
thinking about that, it wasn't a

1124
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:07,960
top three because we weren't.
We obviously just didn't come to

1125
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:09,560
our mind.
But actually now I'm like,

1126
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,560
that's probably #1 you know, in
all honesty, like my child

1127
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:14,880
starting a school.
Yeah.

1128
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:16,480
Reception.
I want to be seeing how much

1129
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:18,640
continuous play, how much, how
happy they're going to be.

1130
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:19,800
Right.
That's it, isn't it?

1131
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:21,880
We talked about culture.
Maybe we can kind of embed it

1132
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,480
into our answer.
Yeah, sneak it in a bit, but

1133
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,480
really that's what I'm looking
for when I say the culture of a

1134
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:27,360
school being happy.
Yeah.

1135
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:29,360
Are the kids happy?
And they're probably more happy

1136
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,160
if they're not sat doing
formalised learning all day at 6

1137
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:34,800
compared to, Yeah, a bit of a
bit of play sprinkled in.

1138
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:36,600
Anyway, it was a really, really
good chat.

1139
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:38,800
I thoroughly enjoyed listening
through it and I feel like I

1140
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:40,600
learned a lot.
Definitely challenged my

1141
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,920
perceptions on it.
And just I'm happy to admit that

1142
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,040
it's like, yeah, I don't, I'm
not that expert.

1143
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,480
I'm not Roof, but the research
is clearly there.

1144
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:51,840
She's clearly passionate.
I'm going to champion, I'm going

1145
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,160
to go sign that petition and I'm
not going to say Oh no, because

1146
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:55,960
I've had this one experience.
Therefore I think everything you

1147
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:57,680
said is wrong.
No, I can't, I can't challenge

1148
00:55:57,680 --> 00:55:59,200
it.
I don't have the evidence to say

1149
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:01,200
formalised learning is better
than.

1150
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:05,120
It's not there, so who am I to
to say you're a nobody, mate,

1151
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,840
But you're a nobody.
I'm just going to host a podcast

1152
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:09,720
myself from now on.
But yeah, absolutely.

1153
00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:12,600
Down below all the links to
Ruth's bits and bobs, especially

1154
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:13,920
the petition.
Go and sign it.

1155
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,920
And if you enjoy this episode,
it helps us more than you can

1156
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:18,760
imagine if you leave us a lovely
review and.

1157
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:20,920
Share it with your friends who
you think might find it.

1158
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:23,280
Quite interesting, particularly
this one.

1159
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:27,360
Let's spread the word, I think
of quality play provision in

1160
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:30,640
primary schools.
Hayden, anything to say before

1161
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:32,400
we sign off for this week?
See you next time.