Ep 152: The Future Of Education: AI, Oracy & Financial Literacy. Will The Curriculuim Review Work?

0:00 Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Teach Sleep Repeat. My name is Dylan and my name's Hayden, and this episode we're going to be diving into the curriculum review. We're going to be taking a look at what piqued our interest, talking about artificial intelligence, financial literacy, life skills in general, maths fluency and importantly, how we actually going to implement all of these things in what is already, in my opinion, quite a bloated timetable. And let's not forget the ORC framework, which is all about the importance of speaking and Dylan listening listening ears. So the curriculum review has landed, it has been released, lots of chat about it online. Overall, I think a lot of very promising stuff. I genuinely read a lot of the, you know, indications that were put forward to the government in this review by the expert panel. And I thought, you know what, these are really good ideas in general.

0:52 There are a few niggling bits we'll talk about in terms of, you know, how to implement it and what should be given priority, etcetera. But again, I think that was referenced in there and, you know, very much said about how it's important to make sure this is manageable, etcetera. And the government have responded overwhelmingly accepting a lot of what's on there. So again, it looks like we're on the same page. I think it's a positive thing. So I thought it'd be a really good opportunity for us on this podcast just to break down some of the parts that we found interesting or stood out to us. We can't do everything. Yeah, there's, there's a lot on it. Obviously we can't do all of those things right now. So we've picked out some bits that, yeah, we think it'd be worth talking about, basically. Absolutely, absolutely. And so I want to start off with enrichment. This really piqued my interest because the review directly referenced something to do with basically how vital enrichment is for our children etcetera, and they said the national curriculum was not intended to take up the entire school day. It's important the national curriculum maintains its position as an ambitious entitlement for all. However, schools have space to go beyond it to provide innovative practise, locally tailored content and enrichment activities that help to ensure young people thrive in education and later life.

2:01 I mean, we can't say that's a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. I, I like to think where it is right now as well. Obviously enrichment's something new, isn't it? It's not like, and there's no teacher listening to this being like, oh, that's a good idea. Enrichment. I like that term. Look at that on my wall. Like obviously enrichment is a thing. So why do you feel like there, there is a need to even bring this up again and make it and bring it to the forefront of people's minds with a quick number of you? Is it not already happening? I I don't, I, yeah, it's was reluctant to say, you know, I don't want to come out and be like, don't focus on this is a million other things that are really important or this isn't important. No, it is. It's really, it's vital. Yeah. Like you said, I don't think this is news to teachers. I don't think people are suddenly going to read this and go, oh, we do need to do enrichment. We do need to make sure there are sports things going on.

2:42 We get all that. But, you know, in the current context, let's be realistic for a second. There are a lot of factors which lead to reasons why schools might be doing less and less of it than before. You know, cost. Post COVID, the cost of coaches is insane. It's disgusting. It's insane. Unless you've got the Tower of London down your street from your school where you can walk to, you get this amazing experience. Most of the country don't have that. You know, the cost of hiring coaches outweighs that of the actual event itself half the time, which puts school off. There's less money than ever. There's loads of reasons, you know, teachers. It takes time to arrange these things. Yeah, it's, you know, if you we've both arranged trips in the past, it is a time drain.

3:22 And there are fewer people than ever in schools exactly because of cuts the funding for the last 20 years. So like, you know, where where someone else might have shared the burden of of planning that trip. If it is a school trip, then maybe that person there anymore. And it is slow. As you know, as a as there's a burden on teachers to to make these to do these things. And we often say on this podcast, we're the first people to say, oh, you shouldn't have have to be doing all these extra things outside of your directed time. So in what? Like I can't sit here and be like, yeah, so come on guys, let's, let's do a bit more enrichment. Let's think about all these extra things we can plan for the kids whilst also simultaneously saying you're already stretched. Everything, everything you do is already taken for granted. Stop doing extra things. Otherwise the system will never change. So I can kind of see why we're in the position we're in where this curriculum review's coming out and saying, oh, you know, we really should re prioritise enrichment.

4:06 It's like, yeah, it's great. You know, one of the other things I mentioned was the, the, that time, the international curriculum, it was not intended to take up an entire school day. OK? That's, it's one of those statements where I'm like, it's not helpful just to say it wasn't intended. OK, It wasn't. Could we? Let's just talk about reality. I don't care what and I honestly don't care about the intentions of the national curriculum written, you know, from 2014 or even before. Let's just look at what's happening right now. The school day is incredibly bloated. We often talk about how it's hard to fit everything into the school day just as is. And there's lots of reasons for that. And we're going to talk more about the curriculum bloat and this stuff later because it comes up a bit later in our points. But like, what? What do we do then? Like how, how do we fit enrichment in if it's not already happening in schools that are already stressed about fitting in a bloated curriculum?

4:50 I don't know why. Where do we start? I think we need to be brutal at schools and, and really push back and say, OK, then I will do less. All right, I've got a history unit. That's six lessons. OK all right, I'll do four or five lessons. And instead we'll have a, you know, a Roman day, Yeah, where we get activities out for the kids and we'll do that. We have to be more brutal at schools. OK, Yeah, we will do that. Then we will cut this. The reason schools are doesn't do that. It's pretty obvious what I've Ofsted called next month and say we're doing a deep dive in history. Is that OK? It's great if fantastic, you know, like we can point to this new framework. We can say why enrichment's really important. But ultimately, if you know, the Ofsted inspector comes down on the fact that your chronology is off exactly because you've missed out something because you had a few lessons than before, they're not going to, you know, getting the national curriculum up and going.

5:32 Well, it's just half a page. This is why, you know, we made it less bloated. We did all this enrichment. It's great. I think it's the right answer, by the way, But I can see why schools are reluctant to do it because they don't want to be caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to Ofsted coming in and saying, well, you didn't do this. And then you've got other people in the review saying, well, you need more. Enrichment. Well, do you know what? Unfortunately, I'm going to side with the people who have control and power over how my school is viewed and it ultimately ranked my school. It's also easier said than done at the whole like country level. I think it's very easy. You could probably go somewhere in the country and go to it and say, well, they're doing it really well. That's what's. Happening. I think they're saying this happens in some schools, so why is it not happening in that school? I think. There's some really obvious reasons. One of the biggest ones for me is lit the just the physical location for two reasons, right?

6:15 There's one of them is kind of a bit more, you know, a bit less tangible. But #1 the big thing here was about local enrichment. Sure, OK, you've got all monies, go on coaches and do all these other things. OK, cool. Just use your local environment. Some people's local environment is very different to others and there's not maybe not as much to do or maybe not as much to see there's this related to whatever they're doing that'll. Be something, sure, but not everything, right? Exactly. Not everywhere. Some place is obviously incredibly rich for this sort of thing. And it's easy for them. Like, why is no one else doing this is easy, Yeah. And the second thing is also like money, not just for teachers and things, right, but how much people, how much money families have in your catchment area. It's not always going to be the same. There will be some schools that genuinely just find it easy to say right within this enrichment thing, it's £15 a head. Everyone chip in and we do one of these a term and it's just not a problem. There are other places where that is not a reality. They can, they did that is literally impossible to do. I worked in a school in in the past where doing something like that would it was a huge challenge. I remember one day I got sort of humbled because I said, oh, we're doing this.

7:09 I want to do an enrichment thing. I said, we're going to do like a business fair. It's been really fun. The kids will need a little bit of money to spend on their businesses. They're inventing because they're going to do like an enterprise sort of thing. And I just said to their teacher, let's, can we just ask the parents to sort of bring in like the £5 per kid and then we can use that to invest. And he was sort of really quickly, like he was like, no, he's like, that's not something we can ask our parents to do. Yeah. It's just it's not going to work and it won't work for everyone. We can't do that. We need to think of a different way to do it. Yeah. You know, whereas other places that wouldn't even be a question of. Yeah, leafy suburb. You know they're already putting fatty quid a month voluntary donation in. Exactly. Right. So you just need to consider, I'm not saying that therefore we shouldn't do anything. I'm just saying you have to. It's easy to blanket blanketly say, yeah, enrichment's good, we should do it more. Everyone just crack on now.

7:51 You have to consider these things that obviously impact it. Put your money where your mouth is, because ultimately, honestly, those children in the more deprived areas need enrichment more than anyone because they're not getting anywhere. Exactly. They're probably less like to get it at home. Yeah, 100%. So do you know what in general I've got to say, though, it's not something we can sit here and say it's bad. No, it's a great thing. It's fantastic, but we just have to be realistic. Should be on the radar. Another big thing in general was life skills. And I thought, you know, that encompassed a lot. So, you know, having a bit of a deeper dive into it, Something that piqued my interest was media literacy, this idea of actually teaching children how to understand and engage critically with what they're seeing in the real world in this era of fake news. You know, I, I think that is vital. And I was very, very pleased to see this, you know, being put on a pedestal. And again, we'll talk about the logistics of it later. But I, I looked at this and I thought, can we, can we pretend this is bad?

8:40 Not in any way. The review considers media literacy to involve of understanding and engaging critically with the messages conveyed through different media channels, including artificial intelligence. To empower young people to engage critically with the messages they encounter. The review recommends that the government strengthens the role of media literacy in English and in citizenship. So across subject I can't see anything negative. With this at all, you know what? Some people are going to say that, don't you? You know what some people are going to say? Oh, here we go, lefty Woking teachers choosing what media my kids going to probably pushing propaganda on them. Don't. They see and turn off GB News. Maybe you should do that. But beside the point, yeah. I mean, I find that so often in general, yeah, where people are like. Yeah, we should be against the fake news and then the list, not fake news and be like, yeah, we're against. It's just their agenda for goodness me. It's not about fake news at all.

9:31 It's just you saying exactly what your political views are and making sure everyone thinks everything else is done. That's what that is. That's not what I'm talking about is kids seeing AI videos that look indistinguishable from real life now and then using it to base a fact on or discriminating on someone because they watch this. All these terrible things that can happen through misinformation or fake news, whatever we want to call it. It's probably, it's important that at school, a place where we centralised, you know, raising the next community of people, we probably should spend some time showing them how to navigate this especially. It's a new and ever changing world. It's already crazy how good AI content is in terms of how real it looks. Give it two years, give it three years, give it 10 years. Like we need to be putting things in place right now to teach children in media. You know, how to differentiate.

10:15 Do you know, I always say to people who come back, some people say it's pretty obvious when it's AI. You can hear it slightly in the tone, it just looks a bit off. You can just tell when it's AI. Two things #1 before you know it, you won't be able to tell. That's the first thing. But the second thing is general, general public aren't that intuitive. Genuinely. They're just not. When the first ever films were released in the cinema, when King Kong was put in the cinema, right? We look at it now and we think it's laughable how obviously fake it is. People watched King Kong in the cinema and left and went to their family and said there's a giant gorilla in New York. They thought it was real because it's based on what you you are used to seeing. You're used to seeing reels on your phone, short messages, short sharp videos.

10:55 And as soon as AI replicates that it's already happening, you'll fill some people into thinking it's real. So for me, this is really important and it has to focus on simply identifying what's real or not. I think it's almost separate genuinely to then, you know, quantifying what's been said as a fact or fiction in terms of, OK, cool, right. This person, this this public figure did actually say this or this public figure has had a deep fake. Identifying the difference between them is one thing that I think is really important. And then there's another layer which is then actually, and this is in general now whether it's print media, video, whatever it might be to then actually look at facts and think how can I verify? The reliability, credibility of sources, all that sort of stuff, which is something I felt like we've always kind of done a bit, but bringing it to the forefront with alongside this does make a lot of sense.

11:44 I think it's completely, completely appropriate. So the other thing, obviously we're talking about life skills and financial literacy is a huge one. Before we do that, I just want to because I felt like we're talking about AI. Yeah. Another thing with AI is not just identifying, like you said, what's fake and what's real, but also just genuinely how to navigate it. I noticed that they've put that in there as well. So the rise of the rise of AI and trends in digital information demand, heightened media literacy, which we'll talk about, and critical thinking as well as digital skills. Just the actual ability to look at the tools and know how to use them to your advantage. It's not all bad. We're painting AI as if it's just this terrible thing that makes fake news is obviously great, great aspects. Well, do you use AI? I use AI. A lot of teachers use it a lot in terms of just upping their productivity.

12:25 But you're right, I, I think back to when I was in secondary school and a lot of my time was spent on an Excel spreadsheet and we'd learn about formulas and we'd have like a project where we had an ITT journey. But like, yeah, well, can you think, oh, how could we possibly get the sum of this and all this kind of stuff? You know, at the time, good. Looking back now, you think kind of obsolete. Oh, there's lessons where I play line rider. All the time, yeah. Yeah, I remember. Those great what was it like we used to find a way to get into mini clip and play skateboard Stan or something game, but you know it it kind of was relevant at the time. We can see why we did it yeah, we I think we should have done coding a bit sooner yeah, it's a big part now and that's great, but even that now is becoming out of date. The only thing I would say in terms of this AI is absolutely learn how to use it, but it is just let's just be forward thinking for a second. In the same way that Excel became outdated to just do that and then coding became a big thing and coding is slowly becoming outdated to just be relied on. I think it's that important to do. We need to just be careful of AI and think, OK, whatever we put in place, within five years we'll probably be out of date and we'll be training people up when they're 12131415, heading into the workplace when they're 20/21/22 and they're already behind.

13:33 It's, I'm not saying we don't do it, I'm just saying I wonder if we can have some kind of framework here or some kind of idea which can extrapolate along, you know, this is going to develop and whilst it does this, these are the skills you still need. Yeah, I think it's so important that AI is never encompasses computing as in like it is just one unit. I still think we should be doing things like the Excel lessons. I still think we should be doing coding and stuff like that. Because ultimately the problem with AI is it will get to the point eventually where AI, it relies on all of human input ever before to use, right? If we get to the point where we only use AI, there'll be no new human innovation like training AI. And I always, always think about that and people mention it all the time in terms of a long term downsides. If we just, well, that's eventually when I when it has its own intelligence, it can do its own thing.

14:16 That's. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, yeah, sure. But like, I just think it's important. Like in computing, I mean, they obviously the quick review suggests putting it in within the computing curriculum. I think that makes the most sense. Yeah. I've already taught some AI units. I think some schemes of learning were quick on this in the last couple of years. Obviously AI is very obvious. It was going to be huge. Yeah. We used I compute our old school and yeah, within like a year of AI being huge, they were like, cool, we've got a new unit out and I taught one in year 6. And it was really, really genuinely interesting. And it was pitched right for these kids and it was just showing them this is this is what it is. And they were like fascinated. And I was thinking, crikey, as an adult, I've been able to use my life experience to kind of work out what AI is. But for a nine year old, 10 year old, actually, it's really important we do show them, oh this is what it is, by the way, because they just think it's magic.

14:58 And, and it's so true and where it's replaced, we had a great talk of Greg Jenner going back with Greg Jenner about AI, where it's almost being merged in with the search engine. So again, if you Google something now, you'll get an AI summary at the top. And I'm not saying it was always reliable beforehand because you could go, go to a website anywhere and find out whatever you wanted and it would say whatever you need to say. But you could kind of at least say, OK, well, this is from this website, this is a trusted website, this is from this website. I can't trust that because of these reasons. Now with the, with the generator, like the AI at the top kind of just giving you a summary, There's footnotes and things in there, but it's harder to get to. And it's kind of taking from 8 things at once. And it's sometimes wrong. It has been wrong and it has been wrong before. Like, you know, to a point where you're like, OK, children need to understand what is going on here. This is an AI overview.

15:45 This isn't what someone has written and cited exactly because of this source in this book. And that goes back to your media, media literacy, which is like reliable sources. Credible sources, yeah. Just it's all move in the right direction, isn't it? Yeah, that's why I think so. I don't. I think there's a lot of people that it's fun to be negative, isn't it? And fun to like. Oh, we know about that. You know, yeah, of course it can be, though. Everything's so bad that only pick out the bad bits or even just in seeing that everything's bad. But I think these are all the right choices. Even if you don't like AI. It's like it's almost irrelevant now. That opinion is irrelevant. It's happening. It doesn't matter anymore. You can be against it what you want, it'll just be left in the past like it's happening. Like so we should probably and you should still talk. About it, maybe. The drawbacks? Absolutely we should we. Should always, but we shouldn't then bury our head in the sand and say, well, I, I'm not engaging with it so well, I'll tell you what that your kids will be. So we really should just be teaching them about it. Yeah, there's one thing that I'm talking about being negative. The only thing I would say here, it caught my interest going through stuff it mentioned about how AI presents a risk to assessment, reliability, you know, if you're using AI to write your essays for you, etcetera. But then it made a link that I don't necessarily agree with. I wonder what you think about it Reinforcing the fact that exams are the fairest way, therefore to be assessing children because you're in a timed condition, you're in a room without an AI bot.

17:00 It's just you, your mind, and you're answering questions that, being fairer than maybe having access to AII, don't. I don't think I agree. I really don't think I agree with that because again, the reason is at what other point in your life are you forced into those exam conditions to regurgitate what you know? There are some, there are some things where it's important to understand that you yourself have a certain fundamental level of understanding. I get that right. I really do. So I understand why there's a role for examples in some situations, OK. But there are some situations where it doesn't matter if off the top of your head, in a timed condition in a test, your work is slightly less good than if you were just maybe at your own computer in your own office with an AI assistant helping you out. Right.

17:48 Well, you're, you're, you're still producing the work. You're still doing it to a certain level. I don't necessarily think that it, it, this means exams are now in a pedestal. They're way more important. I think we have to move with the times as well, with how we assess children and how we use artificial intelligence. It's a tool. Do you know when, when we're writing, you know, a, a dissertation on word versus writing an essay? Do we take into account that word has spell check built in? Do we take into account that there's there's grammar that you can fix on the Word document that does it for you? Do we take into account that you could have Grammarly installed and it says use this for being concise, etcetera, and getting to the point quicker? No, because it doesn't matter. And we accept those are just part of the tools that you get on a computer. Yeah. And that is different to when you're in real life writing things down.

18:30 I think we just have to, I agree, accept that the landscape is changing and understand that. I just don't necessarily think it it now puts exams on this pedestal. I'd say the jump between writing things down and going to the tools that you get from Microsoft Word though, is a is like a significantly smaller jump from going from Microsoft Word to AI, which can do the entire process for you. Completely agree. I. Think that's probably where that lies. Like, I can understand the analogy, but that's where I think people will push. Back No, no, I think I think you're absolutely right all I'm all I'm trying to say is here understanding that landscape has moved, I don't think means that coursework's pointless now an example on a future pedestal. I understand the benefit of understand like it makes it clearer what you get from an exam, what you get from coursework, but. It hasn't unchanged.

19:12 I don't think it's changed. Don't get what you get. We all know what we get from exams. It's a proof of knowledge. I I think it's a huge problem, by the way, don't, I don't underplay this, that there are definitely going to be students out there who just whack it into AI and honestly don't have a clue what they're even submitting. Yeah. So there's got to be ways around doing that. And you know, I think alongside maybe little tests or quizzes and stuff, I think that's a good thing. I agree because ultimately if if a grade or certification, certification certificate, whatever it is at the end certification is. Yeah, I was gonna say I realise as I said it, I was. There's a word if they are essentially what they are is is a metric. They're a proof of knowledge, aren't they? Are proof of understanding of something to qualify you for something else. If the fundamental underpinning bit of that is that you don't have the knowledge at all because you've found a way around it. I can see the problem in that system.

19:53 I get it. I understand why a kid getting through getting a B in their history, but they got, you know, they got F on the exam, but they got an A triple star. Now it's different now numbers, isn't it? But you know, they got really great in the course because of course it's all faith. They count of B and then someone thinks, oh, they're not bad. Yeah, obviously that's problem because actually don't know anything about it. They just someone else has written. It's really funny 'cause when I was at university, I was the opposite really. When I was at university, I got firsts in my exams and tutus all lower, even in my coursework because I just, I couldn't be bothered. Yeah, I don't like, I just could not be bothered. I was like, this is boring. Whereas I could retain information and put something together really well in an hour. So that but but my point is, this is what it's rooted in, right? I fudged it.

20:37 I had this ability to cram knowledge and put together a well, well, a coherent answer and and get facts in my exam in an exam, and I just crammed for that week beforehand and I could get first and and rate it got me up to A21, but my coursework, it wasn't as good Now. OK, cool. I could have also fudged that. That's the point I'm saying here. I don't mean you can you Oh, you can only fudge a thing like not realistically. There were people who also got a 21 who who had much more knowledge than me because I cramped and I just got I got ready for the exam. I think there are drawbacks is all I'm saying. I completely agree. And I hear, you know, stories all the time about how especially a coursework, you know, people, it's amazing. You got nearly 4 marks in your coursework, but in your test you, you know, like you said, you got hard anything that's a bit strange. Whereas I think you can explain my one a bit more is I'm lazy. It's funny how even in your situation you managed to fudge something because I can imagine the big counter argument for or the big argument for saying, yeah, let's just get kids back in exam halls writing down their essays or whatever, because then we know they're not sat there with AI on a computer. It's like, yeah, apart from the Dillons who will write it all in AI beforehand and memorise the entire thing and go in there because they've just got, they can crown all that knowledge. It's still going to, it will still have an impact. We have to, I agree.

21:46 I think we have to consider the change in landscape. I don't know what the answer is right now. Maybe exams are still the best of all the all the options they might be, but we do have to consider how the landscape is changing. We can't, we're not going to stop that. There's lots of things now like AI, the tools that can assess whether something's been written by AI or not. Because of the way AI, it doesn't actually write in, it doesn't write in like characters. If you know about this, doesn't write in characters and words. It writes in like tokens, like symbol. So you can actually, if you put something into the right machine, you can say, oh, this was clicked, this was generated by AI because it's not written in the right way. But there'll be less ways around. It I'm just worried that this this move benefits people like me more and more as I was at school and there are just some people out there who work so hard, especially at their coursework and do really amazing individual work and show off how much they know who crumble in the exam who. Now that was me.

22:33 It's even Yeah. But it's even more that you crumble both even even more. There's even more disparity though, because it's like, well, you could have used AI. It's like, well, I didn't this is this is my work. This is fantastic stuff and I just don't do well in the exam. And now we're deciding the exam is the only way to do it. So it's frustrating. Yeah, I agree. There are other ways of having knowledge and that it should be assessing people. That's all. That's all. I think basically, I just think we need to be really mindful of it. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Let's talk financial literacy because that was the other part of these life skills we're talking about. Do you want to give us an overview of what this curriculum review was talking? About yeah, another, another fantastic edition. I must. I think this is really good, but we've been saying this for a long time. What would we add to the curriculum? Understanding of finance is vital and it's crazy when you think about what do we actually want functioning members of society to have a basic understanding of?

23:16 Finding of how their life works. People have been screaming about this for years haven't they? I feel like even when I was at school, ever since I was at school up until now, I feel like I have consistently heard people saying why are we not teaching children how life works so that the day they leave school at 18 or whatever they they're not walking into, they're blindfolded into life. Like it's mental. What are we doing? Yeah, completely. The review did not to the fact that there are parts of financial kind of literacy and understanding already in the curriculum, but they're not always taught, was the quote. So there's parts of it and maths parts of it is citizenship and it leads to low financial capability was their point. So the review recommended making citizenship, which I thought was interesting. They're going to put this into citizenship including financial education in there part of the national curriculum at key stage 1 and 2.

24:02 So primary school putting into primary school and furthermore financial educations. Main home should be citizenship for applied concepts, but relevant mathematical concepts, percentages, compound interest etcetera still must be sequenced in the curriculum in maths first. That makes complete sense to me. Complete sense. It's, it's the underpinning. It's literally we're saying make sure we understand the core concepts of foundational maths knowledge underneath financial literacy so that when we do talk about the tax system, we're not then sat there the entire time working out how to find 20% of something. It's more like that we know that from mass civilization. This is how the taxation system works in the UK. Let's compare it to other countries and then you can have that. I actually really agree with it. Having a home in some kind of citizenship.

24:43 Yeah, because it is. It's again, it's about society. It's about have being a functioning member and an adult who can understand stuff. You know, there's always push back. Oh, it's just too complicated. There's a reason kids don't understand about mortgages or anything yet, because they don't need to. They're too young, etcetera. And it's, it's like, OK, cool, but they'll all be taxpayers. Do you know what I mean? Most of them will be taxpayers when they grow up. A lot of them will get a mortgage. So at the very least, what we need to make really clear is those key skills and teach them when in maths and make sure they are taught. But like, it's obviously a good thing, right, That you can then in citizenship go by the way, you know, this thing we got, we understood in maths. This will apply to every human ever. When you come to taking a payday loan, look at I think about payday loans and I think they are horrible companies like they they're there to serve a purpose, which seems quite noble. You need some quick cash.

25:33 I'll help you out here you go pay me back over time. What it ends up being is just huge interest rates. Do you know when you see the the small print on the on the advert and it's like thousands of percent APR because it was over the year and this was about being short term loans. I feel like equipping people to understand what will happen if they don't pay back those kind of loans quickly and how it can cripple you over a smaller. Compounding interest in the other wrong way, you know. Exactly that. I think that is such a good thing to be teaching our next generation. Just to think you've got to live within your means, you've got to balance your budget. This is what compound interest actually does and it will do to you. It's not some abstract thing in a maths textbook. Sure, we've learnt about the fundamentals, but now let's apply it and I want you to understand how actually, when you get a mortgage and it's 4% interest compared to 5% interest, that might not sound that much, but over the course of your mortgage you'll be paying back an extra £80,000. Yeah, make it real and tangible.

26:25 For them significant amount something I didn't even know when I got a when I got a mortgage myself. And I you know, looking back, I think I wish I knew this beforehand rather than learning as I as I go was just even what the percentages mean. Like the if you know I had a 2 point as low, I had a 2.3% interest rate. I had a 1.9 at. 1.9 that's mad and it's crazy looking back how I didn't realise how good that was either, right. And I didn't know what that meant. But you know, I, I wish someone said to me, oh, that means that's you take your whole mortgage amount and you pay that back every single year. Someone said that to me, I'd be like, I'd probably be a bit more shocked. I was like, oh, wow. Because I often think if you never get a short term loan, you pay 2.3%, you're paying it on the entire loan. It's a, you know, you take a grand out, you're paying back the extra 2.3% on that grand and you pay it back. It's in one go. Whereas with mortgages it's yeah, you're paying that every single year and just little things like that.

27:08 I wish I knew like tax bands. I, I with my year sixes every single year of my career that I've had year 6, I've always blocked out a week post SAS called money week or whatever. I end up calling it and we and I'll do at least one lesson where we just talk about tax and how it works. The I remember being working at Tesco's, right? And someone at the employee there told me it wasn't worth getting paid any more at a certain point because then you'd go into the next tax bracket as if the, as if you pay that amount of tax percentage on all of your money and said then you get less. And it was all just completely wrong. And I'm like 20 years old at this point. Haven't I had no clue? I should have learnt that when I was 1500. Percent, 100% and it's like when you say, oh, I'll tip into the 50% tax. Well, 40% tax bracket, the higher threshold. And it's like, but that's not 40% of everything you are. Yeah, it's 40% of everything above that threshold. So I get it.

27:59 Like I understand why you might think, oh, that's frustrating. I'm not getting paid as much. But your, your income is completely safe up until then you get 12 1/2 grand that you never get taxed on no matter what happens. So again, if you're at the lower end and you think, oh, there's no point in me going to 14 grand because then I have 20% on 14 grand, I can do the maths. That's nearly 3 grand that I'll be, you know, worse off. I'll have less money than I did when I had 12. Grand, that's what they can win, no? You won't. Yeah, because the people think, you know, 14 grand going down gets you to like 11,200 LB. Yeah, well, that's less than 12 grand when I wasn't getting taxed. No, it's 20% on the 2 grand above. Stuff like that. Just understanding that is vital. I always come back to student loan, you know, again, the financial literacy to at least understand what you're embarking on.

28:41 I'm not saying it would mean that people wouldn't do it, but maybe it would make people more picky about what subjects they do. Maybe it would make people think, do I definitely want to do this because it essentially turns into a youth tax. You're never going to pay back your student loan. You're going to do above a certain amount, which is great. Only when you can afford to pay it back do you pay it back, but you end up just spending interest. It's just interest. If you look at your student loan right now, I can guarantee you that you what you owe is more now than what you actually took out. Well, here's an example for you. So Lauren, I've been with Lauren for nearly eight years and we've both been teachers that whole time and teaching, by the way. Which you need a a degree for you. Have to do this. So you've got to do this bit. It's non negotiable, right? So she did the three-year course at university. It was when fees are around £9000 per year. She stayed at home but her.

29:29 So in the whole time I've known Lauren, we've checked probably five times in this period of time because it's depressing. Despite her paying back the entire time as well because she's been over the earnings threshold. So she pays 9% of her income over this threshold back to student loans. Her debt has gone up in the entire like 7 years. It's like over 50 grand or something now. It's ridiculous. And she's been paying back constantly monthly for like 6-7 years now and it's gone up so. It's just a tax. It is a tax because the repayments don't, don't, aren't higher than the interest. So the interest rate on the loan was bigger. Yeah, I know. When I went to university, I had no clue about any of this stuff. No one told me anything. They just said, yeah, you just get a student loan. That's the only way you can do it, Simple as that. It was like, do you want to go to uni or not? The answer was yes.

30:09 The rest of it is nothing left out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. Cool. You go to uni then you just do it. You just click these few things here, you get your parents to help you with this and then, well, you do mate. Not everyone, no. I didn't like like fill in the forms for you. But yeah, not everyone. And then and then you go and then suddenly there's money in your account. And then five years later, you go. I see. A lot of people say it's, you know, it's the. It's the best loan you can take out because you only pay about when you can afford to and all that stuff. Martin Lewis is always the person I see saying it's still a good deal if you want to go to uni. It's better that it's like this than a different way of borrowing money. There's a time. Where you don't have to pay it back exactly. You can only pay it back when you. Afford it and it's only a certain amount, so and, and at the end it gets wiped off. But that time's creeping up, you know, 35 years now.

30:51 It's ages. So yeah, I think again, coming back to financial literacy, it'd be very interesting to see the specifics of what ends up being talked about in here. But I do think it's very good and is exactly what we should be thinking about. What's the role of school? OK, If I were to think about what every child needs, this is almost top of the list. Be prepared to live in the. Community. It's probably right at the top, isn't it really Exactly exactly that? Let's get to the big one. Very interested in this ORC. I think this is vital. I love, I love the, you know, the, the focus on this. I think it's fantastic. I as someone who I think benefits a lot from what we can call ORC and, and being able to speak and, you know, we're doing a podcast right now, like what's more ORC than this?

31:37 But I, I look back at school and it really helped my confidence. It really helped my understanding. There was nothing bad about speaking more, and I think the way they've put brought this in and the way they're going to link it with the reading and writing framework as well and have ORC framework almost like a third pillar, I think it's absolutely the way to go about it and I'm really, really excited for this. It's essential and a big part. Of ORC is listening, which I think is equally listening. I know you're listening. You missed out on that bit mate. I just, I just wanted to talk. You learned how to talk. That was it. But it's speaking and listening. I just talk. Isn't it, though? It's both. Yeah. And if you think about kids now, and I'm going to sound really boomerish here. Oh, here we go. But if you think about. Kids a bite ready this generation you think about. Behaviour and how it's changed over the last couple of decades. I do wonder how much of that is down to just really bad communication skills, just poor communication skills. We're not teaching oracy.

32:31 We're not teaching speaking and listening like we're used to. Really teaching it as in like, this is how you do it. Kids are getting into Year 6 and they just don't know how to listen. They don't know how to do it. How many times, honestly? With a child, have you like tried to have a conversation with them and very quickly realised that it's not a conversation. It's not a conversation because there is no back and forth. We've joked about it before, but there is no kind of listening. And don't get me wrong, a lot of children are great. You have a conversation with them, but they very much are like, I want to say this thing to you. They're just waiting. I want to say this thing to you, right? Now I want. To say this thing to you right now, this second, because they've learned politeness. They've learned. To be quiet until you. Stop speaking. And they'll be like, yeah, I went to the thing at the weekend and it's like, OK, we need to work on this.

33:12 We can't just hope it fixes itself. Yeah. Because again, if you go on the playground, they'll be the odd child who dominates conversation, the odd child who leads the way. And other children just aren't really listened to and there's no back and forth. Yeah, I agree. So I'm. I'm. Really excited for this bit of framework. Definitely. It does kind of make me think about maybe the next point we talk about, which is it's another thing. It's another thing to add in, you know, I mean, we're talking about the. Yeah, we'll get to that, definitely. But yeah, I think. It's really good. I can't see this being bad. I honestly can't think of a negative. I can't even think of what someone might think is a negative of this genuinely. Like it's surely it's just a good thing. I think so. And when you think about. The, the, the point people always make to me is, and I can't argue this is when people say, how on earth can we expect children to write in full sentences that make sense if they literally can't speak in full sentences that makes sense?

33:58 There is a clear progression in my head, which is you have to be able to say it and do it before you can then think about writing it on paper. It's like when you get that kid. I've heard this. Phrase so many times in my career. Oh, they just stop. You're writing down like a stream of consciousness. What is that thing? Stream of consciousness. You're not thinking about your grammar function. Yeah, you're just writing. Down and I'm like, yeah, now listen. To them talk, they talk like that. What do you expect them when you say to them stop writing down like a stream of consciousness? Think about it. Yeah, mate, they are thinking about it. That's how they speak in real life. They've not had any training on Orac. Like they they genuinely are writing like that because they don't know how to talk to you. Yeah, completely. It's so. True. And yeah, the proof's in the pudding. Writing is so hard. It's so hard. And I, I look at it and I just think there'll be a few people maybe who look at this and and go, oh, we're taken away from the tricky stuff.

34:45 I have to spend more time writing with my kids because they find it so tricky. I talk to my kids all the time, but ORC isn't just talking. No, in the same way writing isn't just doodling. It's very specific. And what I like about this is it's being really clear of what ORC should look like. It's communication. It is speaking, it is listening, but it comes down to that word communication. For me, that encapsulates everything, right? It's about understanding how to say things out loud, how to have a backwards and forwards, and how to understand other people. It's a whole framework. I'm really excited, honestly for it to come in and hopefully have that kind of push where teachers aren't then thinking, oh, I'm wasting my time doing this. This is a lovely thing to do, but this curriculum is just too much. It's just important that potential push back there is. Is a bit like to me someone coming in and saying, look, we need to do loads of writing that 10 minutes of model writing that you do get rid of it because we just need the kids to have a bit more time writing, need to write more.

35:35 It doesn't make. Sense it's like, no, no, that 10. Minutes of of model writing is absolutely essential to them being successful. It's worth taking away 10 minutes of their independent writing because they will become better writers quicker. It's worth it. It's an investment. You're investing 10 minutes, but you're getting way more than 10 minutes gain out of that compared to if they just had 10 minutes writing without it. Yeah, the same authority. It's going to be the same. People just need to, we just need to get our heads around it, I think. Absolutely, definitely agree. There's one thing that jumped out before we talk about the whole, you know, elephant in the room, this whole thing about how we're going to do all of this. There was just one thing I did quickly want to mention which piqued my interest in a lot of people was the GPS. Test at the end of key stage 2 and the idea that it's going to be replaced. So I'll I'll read you the quote. We recommend replacing the existing GPS test with an amended version. This should retain those elements of current test that encourage effective teaching and a separate spelling element, and it should integrate short composition tasks. This should encourage a more proportionate and applied approach to learning grammar, punctuation and spelling whilst developing good writing capabilities. Initial thoughts?

36:36 My initial thoughts are this could be really good. And it could be really bad. Genuinely, I think this is one of those ones where I'm like, this has got to be the right people doing this. It feels like when I read that, it feels like that's come from a good place. And it feels like experts are saying this is what we need to do. But just from my life experience, sometimes experts can be really heavily involved in the initial concepts of things, and then they're not so involved later on. And actually, it gets completely blown out of, oh, we're going to do it differently now. It's like when someone adapts a game to become a film and they just missed the entire point. It's the idea of the concept was great. Went to a game instead of a book. Yeah, I know. I. Famously make a book because I. Because yesterday I started watching The Witcher and I know that there was loads of controversy around the new season. And here's where I break it to you that The Witcher is a book. First and foremost.

37:18 OK, All right. Is it a book before a game? Yeah. Oh, OK, I thought it was a game, then a then a book. Well, we'll find it. Fake news. Why don't? You find out yourself. Instead of just listening to podcast Bros talk about stuff, why don't you go find it yourself guys? Which one do you think plays games? Which one do you think reads? Here we go. Leave a comment on If you're listening to Spotify, leave a comment down below. Was The Witcher either a book or a game first? We'll find out, Yeah. And which one's better? But no, only play the game. Didn't read the book or? Didn't read the book, watch it, or play the game even. Made into a film was made in TV shows. But anyway, just explain that that's where my. Analogy came from but look back to the point Dylan. Ultimately, I think this probably will be a good thing.

37:58 I was just saying there's a risk to it. It will be a good thing. I think the current GPS framework is moaned about a lot. It's it's absolutely mad how much the kids just have to know. It's just tick boxes tick the front of the mobile tick tick this tick that. No context. That's what I don't like about it. Realistically, why do we learn GPS is so we. Can apply it to our writing, so the idea of maybe making it a bit more applied towards writing, probably a move in the right direction. I think it's great. We talk about like, you know. Actually going to some kind of short composition task, I can imagine it's something like, you know, continue this conversation. There's a conversation between 2 characters and someone else says something and you've got to write it in that. That's fantastic use of it. Maybe it's, you know, just just some context where it's like in the next passage use, use expanded noun phrases to describe this picture and there's a picture of a tree and that that kind of idea. I think that's a good thing because you can get so many different bits of punctuation.

38:43 And grammar and composition out of that. Like I like, I really like the idea of the writing task because rather than rather than saying to a kid, put the speech marks in the right place in this sentence, just get them to write a bit of dialogue right. Then you can test 7 things at once in terms of how well they understand how to write dialogue. Might be harder to mark genuinely NSS but. But I just think it's OK, cool. It's better for the kids though, and more realistic, I can tell. You right now I have taught kids every single year of my career that can ace Agps test because they can they can learn the superficial knowledge enough to know where to know where to put the speech marks when they're being told to put it into sentence. But will they use it in their own independent writing? No, right. That's a big difference to me. Like you can tick tick that box, but you can't actually do it in the thing. The only thing that actually matters and we we just spent a lot of time I'm talking about. How writing is really hard OK, but but This is why what this might do if this becomes the way we're assessing GPS, right. What I'd like about what might happen as a result is the way it's taught will change that that's what I'm thinking all the time that's what I think all the time the amount of time is just I hated the kinds of lessons, especially in upper key stage 2 you'd end up having to do because you knew the GPS test was coming but for goodness me, do you know what it's much more better.

39:47 It's just within my writing lessons already I'll have short sharp tasks that say, look what what can like, continue this conversation and stuff, have a dialogue the the kinds of stuff where children can be imaginative and enjoy their writing and still apply all this stuff. That's the ultimate version. I agree. Was there anything more boring than teaching a kid? A whole lesson on prepositions. No, we give them a picture and they just have to describe where things are. Can. Yeah. Other things. Yeah. That was actually determinism. Oh God. Even worse, but it's. Boring as hell, isn't it? Just integrate it into writing and how often, right? What kid doesn't put a determiner in? Honestly, what kid isn't putting out before the thing? Do they really need to know what it is? What did you know that 7 is actually a determiner? Because it's determining how many I Does that care?

40:28 Hilariously, is the like the opposite version of. You know, I just did the speech one where a kid, Yeah, easy. In a GPS test, they can't put speech in it. Determiner. They can. They can let you can teach them a determiner. Sorry. You can. You can get them to use it in their writing really easily, but the struggle to teach them what a determiner is for the test, so they get it wrong in the GPS test or they don't know what determiners are. Well, they do because they're using them in their writing since they were four. And what's more important, the fact they use them. Correctly. Or they can identify the name of a thing. Yeah, it's like, come on. My goodness. Balance is off, so I'm glad, I'm glad they're reviewing this in general because the balance is off and it needs to need some looking at. Definitely right. I want to finish. Off with talking about, you know, it being manageable and the elephant in the room and assessing being negative for a bit. But before I do, as always, I've probably forgotten something. Is there something that jumped in you've forgotten? Possibly the?

41:12 Thing that interests us most, which is maths, which we decided we had it at #1 we were like, we'll talk about maths midway through and you forgot about it, right? God, we've always talked about maths. Right, go on. OK, fluency, right, it's it's to do with fluency and obviously we. Talk about maths all the time, but it's really important to platform. We have to be building on fluency, sorry very quickly right when the when the review come out. And and you read it. Did you not think that we could have written this? I messaged you, didn't I? And I? Screenshot of 1. Particular paragraph and I said I feel very vindicated right now because I was like, I feel like we've written this because this is what we're passionate about and have been for years. We're finally in the position where we can do something about it. But we have for years and years and years felt extremely passionately about fluency in maths and how it is essential and underpins all of maths knowledge.

41:55 And you know, you, it's just the foundations to your house and not to say it's been left behind, but maybe it's just not in the, in the limelight as much as it should be. And some things have started to slip. Maybe a bit of mental arithmetic started to slip, You know, just that fluency of number, it started to slip a little bit. Maybe even just the methods of arithmetic. People think, ah, I don't teach in different ways. It's just, we'll just get through it quickly to get the reasoning. It's all kind of slipping. And we've noticed that, which is why we're building our maths, our new platform, definitely. But seeing come up on this, I was like, well, well, well, well, this is, this is brilliant. It's it's. Just it just summarises everything we said. The review talked about a stronger focus on developing fluency, particularly for the younger children, particularly for children even in early years or year one and year 2, etcetera, of understanding number and being able to manipulate it because because that's your foundation.

42:40 And furthermore, in terms of fluency, in terms of children being able to do mental maths, to be able to do processes confidently, accurately all the time. And what I loved about it was it just drew a line. It had a piece of string between. It wasn't just saying, oh just this because it was saying because this allows in key stage 2, especially for better reasoning and better problem solving, you have to get the foundations right. And I thought to myself, this is what we need to hear because we want to get it right. Kids have to be able to do the maths. It's not at the detriment, it's to enable everything else. It's not just saying that's just practise arithmetic all lesson every single day. It's saying do short, sharp often, do best, do things you've done before, practise new things, fill those gaps because then when you come on to your lesson, you can get to that quality reasoning task, that amazing problem solving task because your children are proficient and good at the basics.

43:37 It's just, it was a breath of fresh air reading it #1 because it's just fundamentally what we believe in. But #2 because I really think now this platform we're building, starting off with a ripertic, moving into fluency in general, having something for early years and and younger children to really understand number. It's all coming together. And #3 don't forget is that we're fundamentally. Right. So we fundamentally agree with it because we're fundamentally, right. OK, it's really important. And this and this, like I said, vindicates. But don't you think, when you're reading it? Almost all way through, genuinely not not being big headed now, but hopefully all the teachers out there feel the same way where one thing after another. I was thinking, yes, yes, this is what we think. This is what we agree. So my, my, my big thing now is watching what the government do to implement it.

44:18 Yeah, they they've, they've accepted a lot. But I look at it and I think, do you know what? This could be done really well. There's one thing. How are we going to fill all this in? This is all fantastic. We talk about bloat. This is what we're really going to focus on now is actually OK, you know, how are we going to make it manageable? I was pleased to read that it directly referenced this in the actual review itself, so I want to read you this quote. We recommend that the government involve teachers in the testing and design of programmes of study as part of the drafting process. This must take into consideration the curriculum time that is available, ensuring the national curriculum is ambitious but teachable within a typical school day. Well, we've already learned, haven't we, The National? Curriculum was already designed to leave extra time and it doesn't, so I hope they don't use the existing framework of thinking that's true.

45:07 In terms of like most cases it is, and I'm sure some people are doing it fine. In most cases, that is not true. This curriculum's already very bloated. I hope they take that into consideration. That'll be my only worry is that they go well. The curriculum's already got a bit of space for women, so we're just going to take out a little bit and replace it here and think, actually it's just as bad as before. This is where we see, I think, the difference. Between what the review is saying and what the government might do. So the review is saying it's really important we do this. The review also talked about kind of just almost rejigging the order that you learned to learn things. It talked about not repeating stuff as much and maybe pushing it further down the line. So having a more streamlined approach lower down to focus on stuff. It directly mentioned introducing too much too soon. That's fantastic as well. So hopefully what we see is just in general stuff just moving down the line a bit just to get really solid talking about the math example, but now approach for everything, getting the foundations right and not having to feel like we're rushing through stuff. That's vital.

45:59 But re digging it alone is great. Introducing all the Orac framework, the extra bits and bobs, it's going to be a balancing act I think to not just re jig it to this room and then fill up again with all this new stuff. Absolutely right. We just have to get it right. We. Have to prototise. We have to not be scared to say we can't do this now we can do XYZ, but it's because we're going to drop ABC. Yeah, I, I agree. I thought it was. Particularly interesting in the resequencing bit, by the way, particularly interesting when it talked about maths, because to me, maybe I'm wrong here, but when the National Quicken came in, in the in the mid 2010, 2014, whenever it was written, the whole maths mastery approach that came in was very much about resequencing maths in my opinion, from the away from the kind of traditional spiral curriculum where it was like lots of bits of maths everywhere into this kind of block approach.

46:44 And I feel like that's already been pretty well optimised. So to me, the resequencing bit when it comes to maths is less prevalent. And I, I see this as, yeah, I think so because I think it's already pretty well sequenced. I think, I think there's too much. I think the problem is it's too much. So I think, I think it's a case of just taking things out and pushing it up into key stage 3 perhaps and not necessarily resequencing it in terms I guess you're kind of resequencing it. But to me means like moving things around. I see. To me it's like, no, just take some things out and then kind of leave it. That's what they mean. I've got to. Read it for master if you recommends resequencing content so topics are introduced in such a way that pupils can master them deeply and allowing opportunities for more complex problem solving. As long as it's embedded in that, I think that's good. Yeah, I guess I was. I was a bit friend of like. People's, people's can master them deeply. I'm like, well, that's kind of what we did for the last 10 years.

47:28 But do you think it's happening? I don't I completely. I completely reject that that that is happening because I don't think you might master stuff quickly enough. I think if you look at, for example, year one and two, you know, a lot of time is spent on like number bonds and basic fluency. I feel like as you go through school, there's absolutely points in my career, and I'm going to say it right now. This is very interesting reading this because I've received some pushback where I've said I'm not teaching my kid that. Yeah, right. I'm not. I'm not teaching them that right now because you know what they need to be able to do? Add in some tracks, spend a bit longer, multiply and divide. Understand, you know, how number works, be able to break up a number that in terms of an ability to master that is more important right now than me introducing what a heptagon is, right? So I'm, I'm that's just an example. It could be anything, but there, there'll be sometimes where I think, you know what, there is just a hierarchy here and you know, you understanding what a few shapes are called in year 8 instead of year 4.

48:20 And I'm genuinely talking about that much time now. Yeah. As a professional, I'm like, do you know what's more use of your time now? Being able to manipulate number and understand and bridge 10 mentally and be able to do all these things that is more vital. So I'm already doing that. Yeah. And there would have been push back which says, well, in this curriculum it says in year 4 you have to do all these shape. I'm hoping the resequencing is basically saying don't worry too much about this stuff. There is there really it's OK to say there is, you know, a pedestal here, these are on the top. Then it's this, then it's that if you're not mastering this, you can have less time on that on the lower and that's OK. And it could be a different topic of maths. I just think that's a number fluency is at the top of that isn't? It that's basically it is on a pedestal.

49:01 Exactly. And funny enough, I was having a conversation everyday with John, who is our software engineer, who's working on our app with us, our software and our maths platform, our maths platform, our maths platform, Maths. You should get in touch, by the way, if you're a, if you're a maths leader, if you're a maths leader or leadership and won. The sole fluency and arithmetic in your school get in touch we'll. Book a demo in in the new year. But I was talking to him and we were literally talking about this exact thing about resequencing and, and just genuinely moving things up and saying how there are double benefits sometimes. Not only does it just the physical moving of like, you know, like shape, whatever, moving it up just makes that extra week in the one you're doing. Also, when you're older, you tend to learn things quicker. That's there are some things where it's like you're going to learn it anyway. It's just a bit of knowledge at this point.

49:43 Rather than spending three weeks learning it when you have 5 and it's really hard concept to grasp, just spend half an hour learning it when you're 12. Yeah, genuinely, because then you actually the difference in time, then you've brought all of that back and if you become fluent. In understanding the basics, if you spend like an extra 5 hours on that, let's say, it does save you time like because you're, oh, I get how number one, now I understand the link between this and that. Oh, I've really let my times tables and I understand, you know at a fundamental level how these numbers interact with each other. Me understanding this fraction question now is like a piece of cake rather than trying to force it in. There are lots. Of compounding passive effects that are like positive effects that are hard to put down and hard to say tangibly this is going to happen. But we do recognise that of course, that analogy you gave there will happen if you spend longer on the foundations.

50:28 This is a big thing, I think, education in general. A big task we've got is to convince the public who see themselves as, as you know, stakeholders in education, rightfully their own children go there, they went for education as well. We've got to be able to convince them meaningfully that it's OK to do less. Sometimes it's OK to focus on less more, if that makes any sense. Yeah, but with more in. Depth. Because in the long run it pays off. That's tricky. And I can understand why governments are reluctant to say we're taking this out. There's there's a reason why the headline is always we're adding Orsi framework, we're adding in Richmond, we're going to have more. There was a big thing about creative subjects we never got into today, about music, about the arts, all of this stuff. There's a reason that sells is because it sounds great that we're doing more. We just have to and I don't mind being that voice when someone online moans about being negative. We have to be realistic is what I call it and just say, look, OK.

51:16 This doesn't mean though something has to give it mentioned it in the review. I hope that happens. Absolutely. There was one final thing I'll say. The last thing, we'll leave it on this, that was in the cricket for that, which I thought was really hilarious, and it literally said that if you really enjoy Teaching Repeats podcast, you should leave a review and you should share it with a friend. It genuinely said that, yeah, you were absolutely calculated by that. Really really really really this. Is it? Yeah. I couldn't believe. It I thought, wow, what a nice shout out to it. And do you know the official, the real name of it was it? Wasn't the curriculum review, It was leave, teach, seek, repeat review. That's what it was called. The whole the actual article was called that, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah, that's fascinating that. Yeah, but you? Definitely should do that and follow. And get your friends to leave us reviews as well, because you know, why not just send it to your mum? Yeah, send it to someone. Just leave review for these guys with you. They're. Desperate. They're good. Guys, they're desperate.

51:57 They're desperate. Leave my review, just help. Out your Christmas gift. They're pathetic. Actually, Christmas is coming up. Yeah. Jim, when we. Started asking for this kind of stuff. We were like, Oh no, we can't be too. Please, please come on. We need to. Make it big, guys. Make it. I'll be in Hollywood next year. I hope you found it useful, Hayden. Yeah. You're gonna. No, no, no. I've got something to say. Come TuneIn. To our next episode in two days time. We'll yeah, there we go. Where we'll be you. Know guys, we have questions and answers. Bye.