Ep 91: The Ultimate Guide To Teaching Maths: Conceptual Understanding, Problem Solving & Manipulatives

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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to another episode of Teach

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Sleep Repeat.
My name is Dylan.

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And my name is Hayden.
And is we, we wanna make it

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really clear that you know who
we are?

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Because quite often, I guess I
say, is Dylan the bald one?

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No.
No, no.

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How do they describe you then?
There.

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Is no, he's the one.
We'll let you guys throw that in

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would.
You put into that now phrase,

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there's something something
Dylan.

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He's the gorgeous one.
He's the gorgeous one.

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That's all I was waiting for.
Give you a nice.

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One, that's all I was waiting
for.

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Someone did do a comment the
other day about that joke that

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we always say, which was it was
both of us were in the video.

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It was a clip on the podcast and
it it was we were talking about

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something to do at school and
this guy commented absolutely

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nothing to do with what the
actual reel was about and just

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commented saying these two guys
have the right amount of hair

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for two people just in the wrong
place.

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What?
Thanks mate, some serious point

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like that.
It's.

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Schools are at crisis funding
point.

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You've got lots of hair.
He doesn't know.

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Brilliant.
I've got, I've got to mention a

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comment we got this week.
I really tried to stay positive

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because we get so many amazing
messages and comments and lovely

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stuff all the time.
And I, I genuinely don't mind

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when people disagree with stuff
because we put stuff that can be

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quite controversial out there,
like opinions that people don't

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often say out loud maybe.
And some people might genuinely

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have a disagreement and I don't
mind that at all.

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But there are two times where I
kind of feel like I need to

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reply to someone. 1 is where
we've explained something in a

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real like really clearly.
Like for example the one I can

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think of straight away is the
teacher martyr 1.

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Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we, we said a teacher

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martyr is someone who puts hours
and hours and hours extra

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outside of work.
OK, into the job.

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Yeah, and judges other people
who don't do that.

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Yeah, OK.
We very clearly said that it's

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about the whole idea of you
judging other people.

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You wear as badger one or you
think other people who don't do

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it.
The whole package.

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The whole package, Yeah, yeah.
The amount of people who

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commented on it going.
I completely disagree.

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I work extremely hard, thank
you.

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And I'm not a martyr and I just,
I, I feel the need to, I need to

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reply because I'm like, OK, so
this person did this and I

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replied saying, do you judge
other people who do less than

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you and think they're a worse
teacher because of it?

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Because if you don't, then I am
not talking about you.

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And then the reply was just,
well, I think it's quite rude

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actually.
I'm like, Oh my God.

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And she, she literally said,
well, I thought this was a place

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for discussion.
Clearly not.

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I can't just air my opinion.
And I was like, look, no, I

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don't mind people saying things
back that disagree, but one, you

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have to like reference correctly
what I said in the 1st place.

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And #2A discussion involves two
people.

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When I replied to you, you can't
go well, I thought this was a

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discussion.
Yes, I'm replying.

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I'm going to having a
discussion.

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Joe at least watch the reel
before anyway, I love, I love

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seeing you get triggered.
I love it.

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I love it when I sometimes you
run the Instagram, I'll look

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through the post and I'll see
some comments and I'll see one

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reply and I'm like, I'm like,
here we go.

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I'm going to open this up and
it's going to be Dylan being

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really sarky.
I try so hard because I ignore

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quite a lot of comments and if
people disagree, I'll have like

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a conversation with you.
I kind of understand what you

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mean.
That's I think this because of

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that, but I completely get what
you mean when someone just like

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completely misrepresents what
you say in the literal video

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they're commenting on.
I'm just What is wrong with you?

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I'm not talking about you.
Loads of people work really hard

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as a teacher.
I don't think you're a martyr

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because of that.
I think you're a martyr because

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of the way you act about it.
If that's you, if it's not you,

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I am not talking about you.
Keep scrolling.

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Yeah, Yeah.
And if it's.

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Rude.
Dylan, It's rude.

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OK.
You're making comments about

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other people.
Yeah, whatever.

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But the other and at least
they're trying to back up their

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corner and and argue for
something.

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The other type are just people I
think are insane.

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And with those I tend to just
like leave a laughy face or

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something because I'm just like,
I can't even be bothered.

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What was?
That one, the other, you did

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something, yeah.
So this is the one that if you

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follow Instagram at teach PPP
podcast, which everyone should

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do by the way just need it 20K
followers by the way yeah

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amazing one on Anyway, someone
commented I did a meme.

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So firstly it's a meme.
Anyone leaving a serious comment

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on a meme honestly getting the
bin it's a meme.

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It's a joke.
Anyway, this meme was the

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caption was something like when
a child says, oh, my teacher did

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elf on the shelf last year.
I can't wait to see what the elf

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gets up to this year.
And then the idea was underneath

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it was me as in the teacher and
it was just someone going I

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don't think I'll be doing that.
Basically, I because I don't do

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elf on the shelf, but I
personally think it's a waste of

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time and I don't like it.
If you do it all, all goodness

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to you.
I don't care.

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Brilliant.
I don't honestly.

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Well, you don't.
Think it's objectively bad.

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Yeah, I don't think it's
objectively bad.

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I don't think it's objectively
good.

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I get when people say you
shouldn't do it because of XI,

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get when people say I do it
because why?

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Sometimes you're allowed to have
a disagreement.

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There's not one right answer
here.

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I don't think you don't.
Care whatever, I just.

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Don't care, I don't do it.
Whatever someone commented

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going.
If you seriously can't be

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bothered to do something like
this for the kids, then I don't

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think teaching is for you.
It was just like, I was just

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like, and she was being dead
serious, right?

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And I was just like in my head.
I came out of seven different

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replies that one, one was
serious, one was funny, 1 was

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witty, and I just landed on 4
laughing, crying emoji faces.

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I can't even do that because you
know what?

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I knew other people underneath
would reply and they did all the

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replying for me.
There are actually people out

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there who genuinely right will
judge teachers based on things

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like that before even seeing
them teach.

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The amount of people I've seen
online say to me, well you're

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clearly not a good teacher
because there's something I've

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said that is completely separate
to my actual ability.

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To really far removed from
really, if you think about if

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someone said like write down on
paper, what's a teacher?

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They wouldn't, they wouldn't
even they wouldn't even write

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that thing down.
It's like it wouldn't even be on

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the list.
Yeah, genuinely, it's like you

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have absolutely no idea how much
time and effort I put into

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teaching, how good I am at
teacher.

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I could honestly, to this
person, you could be the best

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teacher in the world.
Like you don't do half on the

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shelf.
Yeah, that classroom, but

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either.
All right, DJ, are you?

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Oh.
Let me guess, you haven't even

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got them all a Christmas present
each individually wrapped with a

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Christmas card that you've made
at home.

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I bet you haven't even done
that, have you?

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Yeah, guys, nuance.
OK, if you do that, cool.

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Yeah, I don't do that.
It doesn't.

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Make you a bad teacher.
Exactly that.

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And you know what, it can make
you a good teacher in a way, in

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terms of if you're judging
people on doing like going the

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extra mile in that respect for
the kids.

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I'm not against someone saying,
wow, that's really cool for the

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children, aren't you great?
What I'm saying is it doesn't

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automatically mean the opposite.
Yeah, exactly.

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That's what we've literally said
on this on this podcast.

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Other times building
relationships with kids is

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really, really important and
probably if not the most

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important thing to do as a
teacher, right?

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So obviously doing something
like that is helping you build a

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positive relationship.
So we're never going to say

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that's a bad thing or it does
nothing.

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It's just yeah, like you said,
the opposite is not then true.

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By default.
I just couldn't believe it.

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I was like, anyway, that was my
week in social media.

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Tell me about your your week at
school.

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Make at school what we did.
I got one story and it just

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reminded me again about how kids
are really quite simple, aren't

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they?
As in like they're.

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Then some people think, oh, I
couldn't possibly work with

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children.
That's just so complicated.

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We did a states of matter lesson
and the stuff we were doing,

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honestly, I looked at it and I
thought phase there's a like,

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it's quite hard for your four
children.

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Basically the idea of particles
like I, I love this.

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And, and you can, you can get
across to a, a nine year old

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what particles you can do that.
And the lesson was successful.

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But I just looked at the whole
thing and I just thought, God,

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this is like, this is quite
abstract.

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By definition.
I, I physically can't show them

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particles.
So you can represent it in

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different ways, get out the
blocks and stuff and talk about

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particles are and there was one
part where, so I said to them,

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OK, guys, listen, we know
particles are really small.

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You can't see them.
They were like, is a grain of

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sand a particle?
And I thought that's such a good

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question.
I love those types of questions.

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I was like, you're thinking of
the exact.

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Right way in the size limit.
And I was like, listen, they

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they act like grains of sand in
certain situations because they

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all come together and they take
the form of different things of

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liquid, solid, whatever.
But no, if you can see it, it

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can't be a particle.
They're so small and they're

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like, OK, cool.
So I said, right, So what are we

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going to do now?
You guys are going to be the

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particles in a in a material and
you're going to either be a

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solid of the liquid or a gas.
So I got them all stood up in

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the middle of the room, made a
little bit of a clearing.

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I said, right, you're all
particles right now.

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I'm going to say state of matter
and you need to act that way.

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We've just gone through it in
the board of pictures and stuff

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and how it would look.
So I said solid and they all

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clump together, but they're all
moving around and joking.

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I'm like, no, no, no, no, I
said, I said solid.

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It's rigid still.
You're touching, it's rigid.

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It's still.
And then one of them just goes,

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we've got to be like Penguins.
They all get together.

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They're dead still.
They are having the time of like

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the time of their lives.
This is what I mean when they're

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simple, this little tiny thing
where we just did this for four

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minutes and a lesson completely
transformed now that they'll

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remember it and they really
enjoyed it and they loved it.

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And and that's what I mean when
you say you don't have to go

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over the top of lessons,
sometimes just have to be a bit

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of interaction.
How did it go when you said to

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do gas?
Well, this is.

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What we're going to go to now,
so I said liquid.

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And.
The point again, I saying to

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them, I let them just do what
they were doing, but they were

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like running around basically.
I was like, no, no, look,

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liquid.
The particles still touching,

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they're still together, but they
can move around each other, but

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they still have to maintain the
fact they're touching because

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that's what the particles doing
in the liquid.

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They've got a bit more energy.
You've got a bit more energy

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00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:34,760
now, but not enough to break
free.

227
00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,000
So then they're going around
that corner from gas.

228
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:42,280
Whenever I say gas, gases expand
and they leave each other.

229
00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,640
And when I say gas, you need to
go back to your seat, basically.

230
00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:46,240
And that was what a gas was just
spreading back out.

231
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:46,680
Oh.
That's cool.

232
00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:48,800
That's nice.
Idea, but I said only when I say

233
00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,240
gas and I was like ready solid
and then they start running.

234
00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,680
I'm like, Oh no, God, get back
and they'll be really still and

235
00:08:54,680 --> 00:08:56,960
you go backwards solid, liquid,
solid, liquid and then you

236
00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:58,640
finally say gas and they go back
to their seat.

237
00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,040
So then they'd like laughing
their heads off.

238
00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:02,400
They're loving it.
They're, they're really, they're

239
00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,040
ready to write stuff down then
because they've just acted it

240
00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,240
out.
And one of the kids, you could

241
00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:08,440
just tell who's really excited
about it.

242
00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:09,840
Oh, can we do it again?
Can we do it again?

243
00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,960
And I was like, OK, not ready.
But what I'm going to do if I

244
00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,120
say solid, liquid and gas now
and have my hand in the air,

245
00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,320
you've got to get out your seats
and come and do it because we

246
00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:20,680
were doing a lesson on solid,
liquid and gas.

247
00:09:20,680 --> 00:09:21,800
I'm going to say this word so
often.

248
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:23,680
And I was saying, I was saying,
I was saying it.

249
00:09:23,680 --> 00:09:24,960
And then I just forgot that I'd
said that.

250
00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,000
And it got to the end of the
day.

251
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,720
They were getting their stuff
and I said, your table, get your

252
00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:29,760
stuff.
And this lack of up to me goes,

253
00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:31,400
when are we going to do that
again?

254
00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,320
And I was like, Oh my God, yeah,
of course.

255
00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:34,840
And.
I was like, listen, at some

256
00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,480
point tomorrow I'm going to do
it.

257
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,320
So tomorrow, which was
Wednesday, it was English

258
00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,960
completely separate.
And my English class are all

259
00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:44,480
from my class.
So we'd all done that lesson

260
00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,080
yesterday.
I just I put my hand up in the

261
00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,760
air and I like sometimes I do it
to get their attention.

262
00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,240
And I went solid and like four
of them ran out, including that

263
00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:54,640
boy And the rest of like, what's
going on though?

264
00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,240
Oh my God, all ran out in the
middle of English in the middle,

265
00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,640
pretend to be solid.
This solid, liquid gases ran

266
00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:01,160
back.
And this whole time there was

267
00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,600
one girl just sat in the corner
like, what is going on?

268
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,400
She wasn't here yet.
She wasn't here yesterday.

269
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,520
No clue.
Just said solid kids and she

270
00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,480
went, what's going on?
That's such a good experiment.

271
00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,880
Like imagine if she just went
and just got up and joined in,

272
00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:19,360
having no clue what was going
on.

273
00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,240
She had no idea.
Oh, that's really funny.

274
00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,600
The idea of that story basically
is your kids want to enjoy

275
00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,880
learning just just little tiny
things, little tiny tweaks like

276
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:30,600
that.
Honestly, a bunch of them will

277
00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,040
remember stuff now.
They might not have done that

278
00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:33,160
one.
Would you have been worried

279
00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,280
because it's a legitimate thing?
I think I know what you'll

280
00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,000
think, what you'll think.
But would you have been worried

281
00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,600
if the head teacher came in
during that moment when they

282
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,720
were most hyped and then maybe
they maybe were running when

283
00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:44,720
they were supposed to be liquid
if they hadn't quite made worked

284
00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,320
out what liquid was yet Like?
So it looks like chaos, nothing

285
00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:48,600
written down in their books at
that point.

286
00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,760
Would that have thrown you off?
Honest, not one bit.

287
00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:54,440
Like I said a million times at
the start of my career, maybe,

288
00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:56,520
right, But there's two
situations here.

289
00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,480
Number one, as the teacher, you
just need to be confident in the

290
00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,160
fact that you know they're
learning something right now.

291
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,040
OK, that's the first thing.
The second thing, if you're in a

292
00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,120
school where that's actually a
problem, leave the school.

293
00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,360
If you're in a school where the
head teacher comes round and

294
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,880
you're doing that and you say,
oh, maybe they asked for an

295
00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,400
explanation, that might be
annoying, but you're like, OK,

296
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:15,560
fair enough.
Of course, I'll explain it to

297
00:11:15,560 --> 00:11:17,920
you then.
It's because of this if then

298
00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:19,480
it's still a problem.
Leave school.

299
00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:20,960
Yeah, it's not the right the
Haiti.

300
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,680
Just says OK I can see what
you're doing but it did mean

301
00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:25,440
they got less written down in
their books and now I can't see

302
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,200
as much evidence.
Leave the school yeah, get out

303
00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,400
the toxic honestly leave the
school yeah, genuinely, because

304
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,240
my point with that is I don't
know why I can environment.

305
00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,080
Yeah, it crushes your career.
And it might, you know what we

306
00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,680
see we use toxic a lot.
Like it probably is toxic.

307
00:11:36,680 --> 00:11:38,960
Maybe it's not toxic in the way
we think of like treating people

308
00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:40,040
awfully and stuff.
Maybe.

309
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:41,600
I wouldn't say, oh, it's not a
toxic school though.

310
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,120
And let me have my kids run
around the classroom.

311
00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:46,880
But what I would just say is,
OK, if that's actually what you

312
00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,560
think here and you you have that
much of a problem with it that I

313
00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:51,800
couldn't possibly do this even
though I've as professional,

314
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:53,080
I've said This is why I'm doing
it.

315
00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:54,640
Yeah.
And you still can't see that.

316
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:55,760
Then then I would leave the
school.

317
00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,320
Yeah, we're not compatible.
Exactly that.

318
00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:58,720
And there is compatibility in
teaching.

319
00:11:58,960 --> 00:11:59,560
There is.
Yeah.

320
00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,640
Like there are going to be some
schools that literally just fit

321
00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:03,360
you better.
And they won't fit me exactly.

322
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,960
And you know what, it might be
reasonable, honestly, it might

323
00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,680
be reasonable for someone to be
like, oh, just maybe we don't do

324
00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:10,920
that.
Then maybe there's AI don't

325
00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:12,280
agree with it.
I don't have to agree with

326
00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:13,480
everything.
I think people listen to this

327
00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,160
podcast and they think, wow,
your school must be like 10 out

328
00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,000
of 10 and everything you agree
with absolutely everything that

329
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,120
goes on.
No, I'm an adult and I'm doing a

330
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,920
job and there are some stuff,
there's some stuff I like that I

331
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:24,480
do.
There's some stuff I don't

332
00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,440
really like and agree with, but
I still do it because it's my

333
00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:27,920
job.
And there's other stuff which to

334
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:29,880
me is past the line where I'm
just like, OK, I'm going to

335
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:31,160
bring something up or ask about
it.

336
00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:32,760
And it's the.
Negotiation of some sort.

337
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:33,920
Maybe it's not.
Yeah, it's not.

338
00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:34,760
Yeah, I agree.
I agree.

339
00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,520
I hate the idea that we paint
this picture that that we work,

340
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,600
we happen to have the Unicorn
perfect environment.

341
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,760
No, no, no one works in that
Unicorn perfect environment.

342
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:42,920
It doesn't mean it's a bad
environment.

343
00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:43,880
No, no, not at all.
Exactly.

344
00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:45,880
Yeah, there's troubles.
There's you're always working on

345
00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:47,160
something in that school.
That's the thing, isn't it?

346
00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,440
Like it's never just oh, done.
Everyone, every single person is

347
00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:51,960
happy.
Every single child is happy as

348
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:53,840
well.
Woohoo, made it doesn't happen.

349
00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:55,000
It's impossible.
It's absolutely.

350
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,160
So you thought in the last week
of term a good thing to do?

351
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,280
Good thing to do was get the
kids up and riled up running

352
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,000
around in the last week term
right before Christmas?

353
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:04,720
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.

354
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,480
Why not?
I don't know about you, but

355
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,440
maybe, maybe it's the year.
I've got your sixes, but I feel

356
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,640
like at the moment if I give
them an inch, Oh my God, they

357
00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,440
take 5 miles.
Genuine, genuinely like

358
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:17,920
behaviour at the moment.
I did that again right into us

359
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,600
because we love it.
But Christmas term right before

360
00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,120
Christmas, balancing that
normality with actually having

361
00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:25,880
some Christmas fun as well.
Like we make Christmas cards and

362
00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:27,440
stuff.
I find it so tricky because I'm

363
00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,120
always on edge because there's
always someone that just takes

364
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:30,880
advantage.
Do you, I mean, do you get that

365
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,160
in your for sure, yeah.
All the time and and again as a

366
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,520
teacher, that's part of our job
to deal with that.

367
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,760
You know what I mean?
Like that and and again there's

368
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,440
two forks you can go down.
Yeah, the first four kids I'm a

369
00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,680
bad teacher because these kids
are becoming unruly.

370
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:44,560
Don't think that.
But it's Christmas.

371
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,360
These kids are going to not have
perfect learning behaviours

372
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:48,520
right now.
It's OK.

373
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,880
And then the second path is have
high expectations still and

374
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,400
still and still call out
behaviour that's passed the line

375
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:56,920
for you.
Because we've always talked

376
00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,240
about this line and this really
strict line you have to have as

377
00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,120
a teacher, you have to have this
line you expect.

378
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,920
It's almost inevitable in
Christmas that line shifts

379
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,680
because maybe you've put some
Christmas music on right whilst

380
00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:09,080
you're doing an activity which
they can sing along to some

381
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,120
Christmas songs.
That by definition, your line of

382
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,400
behaviour of your learning
behaviours you want to see has

383
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:15,800
moved because you.
Wouldn't normally let them sing.

384
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,040
If they started singing in a
massage, you'd be like, what are

385
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:19,120
you doing guys?
Come with your work.

386
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:20,800
Unless it's Hamilton.
Of course.

387
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,200
Well, that's allowed at any
point in my classroom.

388
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,680
But that my point is in
Christmas the teachers and the

389
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:27,600
adults and the school were
actively moving that line

390
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,440
because we'll say to them, oh,
no English or maths, they were

391
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,640
going to the church for service.
Oh, by the way, no afternoon

392
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,440
lesson because we've got, you
know, Elf Express coming in and

393
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,240
we're going to go to see Santa's
Grotto and stuff and there's

394
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,080
Christmas fairs going on.
We're moving that line

395
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:39,920
constantly and we can't move the
line.

396
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,000
And then the moment the kids for
not understanding where that

397
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,400
line is, yeah.
Yeah, No, I agree.

398
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:44,920
I agree.
But like equally, like you said,

399
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:46,480
you can't then just get rid of
that line.

400
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,840
No, no, let it completely erode.
I tell you a quick funny story.

401
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:50,800
It happened to me this week that
I just literally thought of

402
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,320
right now.
We were doing classic that kind

403
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:54,440
of lesson like we changed our
afternoon.

404
00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,000
It was a bit more fun.
We did some Christmas cards, we

405
00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,640
did some DT sure.
And just literally, I was, I was

406
00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,160
on hot glue gun station.
So, you know, when you're like,

407
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:02,720
I'm thinking I don't want the
kids to use this because I know

408
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:04,320
someone's going to stick their
hands to their feet.

409
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,280
Yeah, like what are you doing?
And someone goes to scratch

410
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,720
their head like, oh God, Oh no,
oh God, this is.

411
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:12,920
Stevens put all this glue on my
hand for the for the work, not

412
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,280
my head.
Let other people know it's

413
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,080
actually a glue gun incident
that caused you to cut your hair

414
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:16,720
off.
Exactly.

415
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,520
That's how you look, yeah.
Exactly how it happened.

416
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,120
That's what I tell the kids, but
I'm honest, just sad sat there

417
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:23,760
doing some glueing.
I looked over.

418
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,160
This is 5 minutes in 5 minutes
in, right?

419
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:27,880
We're barely even started and
they're, you know, they're

420
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:29,480
having a whale of a time.
Look over.

421
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,960
There's just a kid in the corner
who has wrapped his entire hand

422
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,200
with he's used the whole roll of
sellotape that I gave their

423
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:36,440
table.
Every table got a roll of

424
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,440
sellotape, whole roll wraps his
whole hand all the way down

425
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,120
through his forearm and he just
looked at me.

426
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,200
You know, when they give you
that look of they absolutely

427
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:44,600
know there's nothing they can
say to get out of this.

428
00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,920
They know they've done
themselves in right at this

429
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:48,200
moment.
He looked at me with that sort

430
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,480
of kind of smirk, thinking
please find this funny but also

431
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,080
like I know I've done wrong and
I was just like come on man.

432
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,560
Did he just do a Samos snap?
No, he didn't because there's

433
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,280
too much on it.
He couldn't get it off.

434
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,280
It took him 5 minutes.
Obviously I was like, oh, for

435
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,440
God's sake.
So yeah, that's what I mean

436
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,440
about the the madness of this
last time.

437
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,440
Because you know what?
I think if I did DT maybe at the

438
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,840
beginning of the term and that I
think I don't think that would

439
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:13,360
have happened.
But even if it did, do you think

440
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:14,400
you would have reacted
differently?

441
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:16,560
Probably.
I want to ask you very quickly.

442
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,320
I know, I know we're doing like
a catch up and stuff.

443
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,640
I want to talk about maybe that
right now because I'm, I'm quite

444
00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,240
interested.
I feel like we are, if you think

445
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,040
about a traditional teacher, I
think we're more laid back on

446
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,000
the scale.
OK, in terms of in terms, in

447
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,920
terms of what?
So let me, let me explain in

448
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:37,000
terms of attitudes, OK, in terms
of strictness and behaviour, I'm

449
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,280
not talking about that because I
think we're quite strict still.

450
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:40,880
Personally.
I think we are very strict in

451
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,640
fact, because I don't think
strictness means mean I'm

452
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,800
talking about traditional.
Like I, I will not shout and

453
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:53,080
demean a child ever really.
Like unless it's, I feel like,

454
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,760
gosh, I need to shout because
either you're not listening at

455
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,880
all or it's safety or something.
Yeah, it has to be like a real,

456
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,960
real reason.
Whereas I think sometimes other

457
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,160
teachers use that as a
management tool.

458
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:05,400
I'm going to strike.
All the time.

459
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,800
All the time because I'm a
teacher, you know, do that.

460
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:09,560
Yeah.
My point is there with like

461
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,560
someone doing that right
literally Stan a tape in their

462
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,680
entire hand.
Up to their elbow, right?

463
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,400
Yeah, yeah.
Is that an instance where you

464
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,520
should really reprimand and be
like just say to our dad is

465
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,560
completely unacceptable, not
have an an ounce of smile or

466
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:28,240
happiness or do you still
approach that with God stop.

467
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:30,120
That what do you want to wait?
The line, yeah, because.

468
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,120
I feel like I feel like I'm
somewhere in the middle of that.

469
00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:34,800
I did not remotely raise my
voice at this kid, genuinely.

470
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,680
I said, I said what are you
doing?

471
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:39,920
Oh, immediately regretted.
What is that?

472
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:41,840
I said no no, no stop stop.
You start trying to take it off.

473
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,200
I said no stop, stop, stop.
I said keep.

474
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,240
Going leave the room.
No, I literally said I said

475
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:47,880
leave the room.
I said you go down to the head

476
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,360
teacher and you explain to him
why you set up your hand to DT.

477
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:51,560
No, no, no, I won't.
It's OK.

478
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,720
I said no, stop, stop.
I'm not saying take it all off

479
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:54,640
right now.
I said there need to be a

480
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:55,800
consequence.
Off you go.

481
00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:00,000
And he was an illiterate.
No, no, no, I said it's an easy

482
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,320
lesson to learn.
I said you'll come back in 5

483
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,960
minutes, Go and tell the head
teacher Mr Stevens has sent me

484
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,480
out because I've said I take my
whole hand up in my head.

485
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:09,400
I'm sort of laughing at this
point to be honest with you.

486
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,080
I'm in my head, I'm thinking
this is kind of funny and the

487
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,720
head teacher's probably going to
find this funny as well by side.

488
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,880
But in my head I was like, I
don't want to just shout at this

489
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,040
guy.
He's just having honestly, he's

490
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,760
just having a laugh.
Is it the worst crime in the

491
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:21,720
world?
Not really.

492
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,240
Do I really do I go home that
night thinking, God, I'm so

493
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,200
annoyed about that.
No, not at all.

494
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:29,560
I wasn't really annoyed.
I just thought it's just

495
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,000
slightly frustrating that it's.
A lesson to land still, though,

496
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,640
because.
Went to their teacher, came back

497
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,000
5-10 minutes later with a hand,
a free hand and I was like,

498
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:38,760
there you go, you won't do that
again, you won't do that again.

499
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,240
Finish, don't, don't worry about
it.

500
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:41,440
And we cracked.
It and then none of this class

501
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,600
have sellotape anymore so they
can't do the DT.

502
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,400
That's fine, just just sit
there.

503
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:46,600
I.
Touch the whole class because of

504
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,120
it.
So before we before we move on

505
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:50,400
to the main part because I think
we enjoyed it last week Remember

506
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,280
last week when I had a few rile
up Dylan things to go and you

507
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:54,560
were getting worried that the
time was getting on.

508
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,040
Can I do that last one?
Yeah yeah yeah.

509
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,160
Can I tell you something I saw
online that I thought would

510
00:18:58,160 --> 00:18:59,720
annoy you?
Maybe we'll turn it into a

511
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:01,600
frequent thing.
Yeah, maybe, maybe.

512
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,880
If it's not, you know what?
Most weeks I reckon we need a

513
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:05,200
Jingle.
For it like a specific one,

514
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:06,000
yeah.
We do, don't we?

515
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:07,760
I'm not going to say we are
nearly 100 episodes.

516
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,600
We still not really.
Thought about doing anything

517
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,480
like that have we when we
started this podcast, you

518
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,040
remember you were like we need
to have sections like to find

519
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,280
sections that we do every week
and it's like no, we don't

520
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,000
maybe.
No, we could or we could put no

521
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,880
F in anyway right?
So here we go.

522
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,480
I saw this online, someone said
the headline called me straight

523
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:27,920
away.
Can you request not to move up a

524
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:29,840
pay point?
And I thought here we go.

525
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:31,680
This teaching is the only career
this is going to happen in

526
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,720
right?
Currently UPS 2.

527
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,280
Wondering if I could request and
not move to UPS 3 despite it

528
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,240
being on the cards at my school.
It feels like UPS free is is

529
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,680
just use of a stick to be
experienced teachers.

530
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,200
Oh, you're UPS free so you've
got to do these extra things.

531
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,120
Well you should have done that
because you're UPS 3 blah blah

532
00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:50,000
blah.
You've heard all that sort of

533
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,520
stuff.
So the question is literally

534
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,480
then can I request to stay on
UPS 2 and then not be lumped

535
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,600
with extra work with UPS 3?
What's your feelings on that?

536
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,080
Because there's a million
different comments, which I

537
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:01,640
won't.
Go into yeah, well, straight

538
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,040
away when I hear anything to do
with upper pay scale and it

539
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,640
justifying more work outside of
the job, I'm under the

540
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,400
impression that it's been
repeatedly refuted that UPS

541
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:17,880
means you have to do more stuff
actual physical like leading

542
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,680
math or leading a year or
leading a key stage.

543
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,040
I think it's used very
frequently for that incorrectly.

544
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:28,320
I think a lot of schools will
say, well, you're UPS so.

545
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,720
You can lead English.
XYZ you want to do a textual

546
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,040
stuff and it's like, well why do
you think TLRS exist?

547
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,920
Yeah, like a TLR literally
exists for a teaching and

548
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,400
learning responsibility, which
is separate to UPS.

549
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,880
It might, from what I've seen
from union advice and guidance

550
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,440
and stuff, is that the upper pay
scale is literally just a way of

551
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,920
boosting up your experienced
teachers because they are

552
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,800
exactly that.
And they have an impact on the

553
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,320
wider school, which can be
through many ways.

554
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:54,160
Yeah, not simply just leaving a
subject.

555
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,640
You can have an impact through
the wider score, through sharing

556
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,320
your planning.
Yeah, you can have an impact

557
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,800
from, you know, mentoring an NQT
or something.

558
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,280
And even informally as well yeah
those things get missed.

559
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,440
What the passive informal
experience running an assembly

560
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,760
just doing that or even just
being able to just do something

561
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,480
on the spot yeah there's a bit
of an emergency I need I need

562
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,200
someone to run assembly right
now.

563
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,840
It's not been planned.
OK, That remember staff, you're

564
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:18,480
way more experienced.
You're probably gonna be able to

565
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,040
do that like little passive
things, even just being in the

566
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:21,960
year group, right.
You for people in the year group

567
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,800
as an NQT and as a really
experienced member.

568
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,560
And the NQT goes to the
experienced member just

569
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,000
occasionally informally, totally
off the books, just saying.

570
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,040
How did you do that lesson
there?

571
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,760
I do it still.
I talk, you know, I work with

572
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,400
someone who's 30 years in this
game and I regularly go to her

573
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,560
when it's things like DT and
where I'm not as confident.

574
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:36,880
I'm like, how did you teach that
one?

575
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:38,160
What did you did you give all
the kids this?

576
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,280
Did you lay out on tables?
And she'll just tell me and I'm

577
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:41,880
like, cool, banging us.
That's really good advice.

578
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:43,560
Those kind of, that's what it's
for, isn't it?

579
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,640
Yeah, it's not for taking your
TLR.

580
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,720
There's got to be a reward for
being an experienced teacher.

581
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:49,800
We've talked about this a
million times.

582
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,080
This is another example of one
of the real posted where people

583
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,880
were very much like, yes, that's
brilliant and other people were

584
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,320
like you.
You don't teach for reward.

585
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:58,960
You you should be doing it for
the kids.

586
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,480
Stop.
If you're a really experienced

587
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,400
teacher, there is genuinely
nothing past the top of the main

588
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,840
pay scale unless you go to this
upper pay scale.

589
00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:09,760
So the idea of the upper pay
scale should literally just be

590
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,280
rewarding that experience.
It shouldn't be a transaction

591
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,480
where, OK, I'll bump you up, but
you need to give me 10 hours

592
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:16,520
back a week.
Don't leave the English.

593
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,320
No, it's a reward for being
experienced and for and, and are

594
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,000
we going to, are we going to
solve retention?

595
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,840
Are we, are we actually going to
solve retention?

596
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,600
Well, this is a tiny part of
that which you're wanting to

597
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:28,520
take away.
Yeah.

598
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,200
So this itself won't solve
retention.

599
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:31,880
Just giving someone extra 2
grand in a year.

600
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,120
It's not going to solve
retention, but it's going to go

601
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:36,280
a certain way to just feeling a
bit more value.

602
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,040
Yeah, it helps a bit.
It does help a bit.

603
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,360
So don't.
Get rid of it, because just

604
00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:40,800
because it's not going to solve
a problem it.

605
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,560
It will make it worse though, if
we pretend that it's a.

606
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,280
Part of the solution, it's not
the whole solution.

607
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:46,400
Yeah.
Do you think we should get rid

608
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:52,120
of UPS 123 and honestly just
have M1 to M9 just just have a

609
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:53,920
continuous scale?
Like why do we even have this

610
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,440
threshold I?
Think it would probably be a

611
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,520
good thing in terms of it would
get rid of this idea that you

612
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,840
have to do something extra.
I'm convinced people teachers

613
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,000
listening to this, maybe you can
say, Oh my gosh, yes, I

614
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,600
completely agree.
I am completely convinced that

615
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,560
that there is absolutely no
reason at all why like upper

616
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,920
management, government, DfE,
Ofsted, there's there's a reason

617
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,000
why they haven't actually gone
about trying to change stuff

618
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,160
like this to help workload and
well-being and things like that.

619
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,600
There's a reason why they'll put
out a report and say, yeah, we

620
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,280
do too much, why don't you stop
photocopying?

621
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:28,960
That doesn't actually help
well-being whatsoever and

622
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,600
doesn't actually reduce workload
and doesn't actually go as far

623
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,000
as something we said last week
about putting in an overtime

624
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,880
thing for teaching or just
having set out.

625
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,600
There's a reason why it's so
flimsy and great because it

626
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,360
benefits them.
It benefits them that schools

627
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:44,040
are using UPS for this kind of
transactional agreement that

628
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:45,960
you're going to go through UPS,
you need to give me more work

629
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,160
because there's no money for
that work to get done.

630
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,920
So they pretend that the UPS is
for that, that there is a

631
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,400
benefit to exploiting teachers
and workers in this way.

632
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,560
And the benefit is more stuff
gets done and it's at the

633
00:23:58,560 --> 00:23:59,800
detriment of teachers
well-being.

634
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,800
So if you're at the top and
you're thinking, OK, we can

635
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,680
really actually change teachers
well-being and actually reduce

636
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,760
their workload, but we don't
have any extra money.

637
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:08,520
So that is just going to mean
that less happens for the

638
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,800
children and and English isn't
LED as well, or the discos don't

639
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,280
happen after school or the clubs
aren't run for the children.

640
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,640
They're making that choice to
detriment a teacher's well-being

641
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,800
over impacting a child's
outcome.

642
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,520
And the point has to be here
that you could argue all day

643
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,320
that the children's outcome is
more important than a teacher's

644
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:28,560
well-being.
But that's what's getting us

645
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,880
into this crisis right now.
So if you're going to actually

646
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,320
fix it, you've got to make hard
decisions that involve money

647
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,440
being put in the right place.
And if it doesn't involve money

648
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,000
being put in the right place,
because you're saying we

649
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,400
literally don't have the money,
what I'm saying is then you

650
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,040
literally have to lower the
expectations.

651
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:44,760
I've talked about this a million
times.

652
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,680
It's a seesaw, the expectations
of the teacher and the money we

653
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,400
put in at the minute, it's way
too heavily put into what's

654
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,520
expected of the people and the
only way to solve it, sure, no

655
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,760
money.
OK, well we have to lower the

656
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,720
expectations then because we
cannot keep going.

657
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,200
And this is just one symptom of
that.

658
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,280
In my opinion.
This is 1 symptom of how we are

659
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,720
just exploiting people to get
more and more work out of them.

660
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,760
When you can say no, you can go
to UPS 3 and do no more than

661
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,040
you're doing on UPS 2 just
because you're more experienced

662
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:14,960
and you're a better teacher
because.

663
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,520
Of it, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it.

664
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:17,960
And it keeps you in the job,
honestly, that.

665
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,000
And that's enough for me after
everything you said, that was

666
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,920
amazing.
And I was already convinced that

667
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:23,600
it it might help retain me,
though.

668
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:24,720
Yeah.
OK.

669
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:25,880
Do you want a really good
teacher in the school?

670
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:26,960
Hey, go give them a couple more
ground.

671
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:27,920
Done.
UPS 3.

672
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,120
But I don't know.
I don't know.

673
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,480
I think your analogy was really
good because my gut feeling is

674
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,760
scrap, scrap their system.
But I can see why they

675
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,520
absolutely keep UPS 1-2 and
three.

676
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:36,600
Yeah.
But even like you look at us

677
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,120
like it is broken.
Me and you, we're both with 9

678
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:42,080
and 10 years in.
So technically, technically, if

679
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,480
we had a pay rise every single
year, we would both be on UPS 3

680
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:44,920
right now.
Sure.

681
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,360
Neither of us on UPS.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

682
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,520
completely.
So like, and I'd say I'm quite

683
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,640
bullshit like I've pushed for
trying to move up to other

684
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,680
people probably 10 years in are
still on M6.

685
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,560
Yeah, they've never moved into
the upper threshold because.

686
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:56,320
They're scared of this.
They're.

687
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,920
Scared of this like this sort of
thing or they their school.

688
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,640
And I know this happened because
I've literally had a

689
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,080
conversation with someone in the
past who said I've been given

690
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,520
the option.
I can't believe this is real.

691
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,160
Like thinking back right?
Someone said to me I've been

692
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,840
given the option I'm on M6.
I'm currently on M6 and I have a

693
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,480
TLR for leading a subject.
If I go to UPS.

694
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,560
My head teacher said you can go
to UPS but you won't get your

695
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,600
TLR anymore.
So you can go to UPS 1.

696
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,120
You still need the subject as
part of UPS but you won't get

697
00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:22,320
your TLR.
So it's the same money you still

698
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,960
and they convinced them as so
you're still getting your TLR.

699
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,520
It's just embedded into your
main pay now.

700
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,200
So it's no longer an extra thing
we can take away.

701
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:29,600
It's now part that's the benefit
mate.

702
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,640
It's no longer the next separate
thing is part of your actual

703
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:33,760
main pay now.
How good is that?

704
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,560
Hey, so take UPS one.
And obviously they were just

705
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,520
like they took the UPS one.
They took that option.

706
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:41,600
And then it's like, cool, there
you go.

707
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,040
Well done.
You manipulated your teacher

708
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,320
into going up.
Literally just a point.

709
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:45,960
They deserve it.
And you've taken away the extra

710
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,040
money and that's still doing the
work.

711
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,400
And that's what they did.
And at the time, I remember

712
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,200
being like, Oh my, not the two
options.

713
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,560
Like they were both fair.
Like they were the only things

714
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,200
that could possibly happen.
Like, yeah, I agree.

715
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:56,920
I think you should do that one
mentor.

716
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:58,960
I wish I could go back now and
be like, no, go to your school

717
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,600
and be like, oh, that's actually
not what UPS is for.

718
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,480
By the way, here's the freaking
paperwork.

719
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,080
My my favourite one always with
this is teacher standard 8.

720
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,400
I love going back to that
because it's used so much and I

721
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,320
remember like you being young
being NQT because it was that's

722
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,920
what it was called back then ECT
Now and and my mentor literally

723
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,360
saying to me you should do the
disco because it will make I

724
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:22,680
mean I can tick box 8.
I just remember being like I I

725
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,000
at the time I was like sure.
I look back now and I'm like,

726
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,160
you just need an extra pair of
hands for the disco.

727
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:28,480
Yeah, that.
Didn't take off.

728
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:29,440
Nothing.
Nothing to do.

729
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,280
With me being a good teacher or
not.

730
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,440
That has not contributed to
where you are now.

731
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:34,000
Oh.
Well, you're not.

732
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,120
Well, you've done you've done
amazing assessment work and you

733
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:38,040
teach the kids really well.
But you didn't go to disco, so

734
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:39,600
you can't you can't take off
TSA.

735
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,840
Yeah.
I love the, I love the sort of

736
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,920
retrospective like way of
thinking where it's like, if you

737
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,280
didn't do that, would you still
be where you are now?

738
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,480
Yeah, absolutely.
What did it impact any?

739
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,080
Did it really impact any
decision?

740
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,800
It did because I did some
amazing nice lies and and those

741
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,240
kids were jealous, man.
They were jealous.

742
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,320
That really helped me build a
relationship with the children.

743
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brilliant.

744
00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:00,520
Anyway, well, the second-half of
this episode is all about maths.

745
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:01,880
I'm really looking forward to
talking about it.

746
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,600
Same, we've had our usual, you
know, funny chit chat.

747
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,440
Now we're actually going to try
and get semi serious I suppose.

748
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,760
And we are maths leads.
So let's talk about teaching

749
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,440
really good math.
You and I are maths leads.

750
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,080
In our school.
We were trained as maths

751
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,560
specialists.
Maths is our thing.

752
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,080
I think we're fair to say that,
you know, sometimes we get an

753
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,360
expert on the podcast and we're
like, cool, we're going to let

754
00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:25,600
you talk about this because we
just have opinions.

755
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:26,680
You're the expert.
Yeah.

756
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,240
So I've got an.
I've got an expert in for this.

757
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,000
It does.
It's me, not you mate, it's just

758
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,880
me you know.
Oh sorry, you're the one that

759
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,320
has a maths specialist on your.
Degree, aren't you?

760
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,120
Yeah, but in all seriousness,
you know, you've clicked on this

761
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,840
podcast because very much we're
going to talk about teaching

762
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,240
maths and how to teach maths
well.

763
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:43,760
And we're going to go for
everything we've learned over

764
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,720
the years, what the purpose of
teaching maths is, what a maths

765
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,480
lesson should look like, what we
have to involve the kind of

766
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,480
actual bits around the
curriculum, how do I make sure

767
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,040
there's progression and things
like that, what good maths

768
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,320
teaching looks like, and just
bits in general.

769
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,120
And we're going to try and get
rid of some misconceptions.

770
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:01,680
That's a big part of this.
We're going.

771
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,120
To squash some of those, That's
what I was about to say.

772
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:03,920
That would be.
That would be good.

773
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,400
So maths in general then,
Hayden, what would you say is

774
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,680
the purpose in terms of your sat
down?

775
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,800
You're a school teacher, you
know, you've got to teach maths

776
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:11,920
very often.
It's every single day.

777
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:13,240
It's a huge part of the
curriculum.

778
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:14,960
Why is that?
What is the purpose?

779
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,720
And the kid says to you, why do
we learn this?

780
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:17,920
That's happened, that's
happened.

781
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,080
And sometimes people know.
The answer is the purpose of

782
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,120
teaching maths to me is what I
would say to the children is

783
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,160
it's real world, it's real world
skills, it's problem solving,

784
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,680
it's developing your brain.
You're understanding how to

785
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:28,720
solve problems in the real
world.

786
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,720
That's normally like the
textbook response, like if the

787
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,680
children, would you add anything
to that if you were talking to

788
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,320
an adult, perhaps that says why
do we?

789
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,600
What is the real purpose?
Yeah, I'd say from an adult's

790
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,600
point of view, a big part of
your job when you're teaching

791
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,800
maths is to try and reduce the
anxiety around the subject as

792
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,960
much as possible.
You look at adults and I think

793
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,120
it's very normal for adults to
say, oh, I don't do maths, I

794
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,480
don't do numbers.
And no one bats an eyelid.

795
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,200
You know, if someone turned
around and said oh, I don't do

796
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,160
reading, you would.
It doesn't happen.

797
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,280
There's much more of a of course
everyone reads and if you don't

798
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:01,400
then you feel really insecure
about.

799
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,000
And we're not talking about just
like choosing to read.

800
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,280
No, no, no.
Yeah, I know.

801
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:05,360
I don't do reading.
I can't read.

802
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:06,560
I can't read at all.
I don't do exactly.

803
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,040
That like if you are illiterate,
that's something where there's

804
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,280
like things in place, like no,
everyone should aim to be

805
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:12,840
completely literate because it's
really important.

806
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,560
With maths, there's definitely a
much lower threshold and I think

807
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,440
that induces a bit of anxiety as
a child, which leads to that

808
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,200
indifference when you're older.
So if you're anxious about maths

809
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,560
when you're younger and you feel
like you're failing when you're

810
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,720
older, you you will deal with
that by suppressing and saying,

811
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,040
well, that doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter.

812
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,120
Well, when really in real life,
do you know what it's so helpful

813
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,520
to have solid foundation on math
skills and in primary schools

814
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,040
specifically is where we have to
really nail those foundations as

815
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:39,760
much as possible.
So I agree with everything you

816
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:40,880
said.
It's all about the real word.

817
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,920
It's about the idea of solving
problems.

818
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,000
We'll come on to that.
But it is about just being able

819
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,920
to do maths, you know, work out
your change.

820
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,160
How much money do you have to go
shopping, what time is the bus,

821
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,200
you know, things like that.
So do you think the curriculum,

822
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,680
the national curriculum is, is
set out to do this?

823
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,400
Do you think it has the right
aims?

824
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,720
I think, I think the aims of the
national curriculum are really

825
00:30:58,720 --> 00:30:59,320
good.
Yeah.

826
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,480
I think if you just take that as
a piece of paper on its own and

827
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,800
you read it, I don't think
anyone would disagree with that.

828
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:05,280
I think we can talk through the
aims.

829
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:06,120
Yeah.
What are the aims?

830
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,200
So literally written in the
national curriculum?

831
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,120
This is where the three parts of
maths come from.

832
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:11,640
If you're a primary school
teacher, you've done any maths

833
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,360
CPD you're you're thinking of
OK, There's three parts of

834
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,480
maths, fluency, reasoning,
problem solving and this it

835
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,080
comes directly from the aims of
the curriculum.

836
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,720
So the aim of the curriculum,
we'll start with fluency.

837
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,640
So the idea of fluency is
practising things over and over

838
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,600
again, basically becoming good
at maths, being able to do maths

839
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,720
and not only be able to do maths
but to do that maths in

840
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,680
different circumstances and
situations.

841
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,320
And, and we call that as a
teacher very fluency.

842
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,680
So the aim is children are able
to do maths.

843
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:41,920
That's basically the first name
in.

844
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,440
English, right?
When you say you're fluent in

845
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,520
English, I wouldn't say a kid is
fluent in English because they

846
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,040
can write one single sentence
structure over and over again,

847
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,800
right?
It's about, OK, you can write

848
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,080
these words and you're fluent at
the language and you can write

849
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,000
them in loads of different ways.
And I think that's kind of what

850
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,280
you're getting out with this
idea of varied fluency, right?

851
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,520
That's a really good analogy.
And I think when you think about

852
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,600
if someone's fluent in English,
do they know every single word

853
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,720
in the dictionary?
No, no, of course not.

854
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,320
I'm fluent in English and I
definitely don't know every

855
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:06,760
single word.
I definitely something couldn't

856
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,080
write like Shakespeare, do you
know what I mean?

857
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,760
But fluency is something that
all children can achieve.

858
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:12,200
Yeah.
In the same way fluency in

859
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:13,120
reading is something all
children.

860
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:14,800
It doesn't mean you absolutely
know everything to do maths

861
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:15,760
ever.
You're completely fluent in

862
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:16,720
whatever.
Yeah.

863
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,920
It means you've reached a
threshold where, yeah, you can

864
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:20,520
add numbers together.
Yeah, of course you can work out

865
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,480
how much time is left until the
hour and things like that.

866
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,760
Fluency is an aim.
And this is a name for all

867
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,160
children.
If it's something that sometimes

868
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,560
gets missed, the idea is all
children should be hitting these

869
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,040
aims.
OK, and fluency.

870
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:32,120
I think that analogy of reading
so.

871
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:33,800
Could just squash a little
misconception then, because I

872
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,440
think it's very normal to think
that fluency equals arithmetic

873
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:38,760
only, right?
Is that right?

874
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,240
Is that wrong?
Is there some truth in that?

875
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,760
I think a big part of fluency is
what we do would call

876
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,920
arithmetic.
Yeah, a big part of fluency is

877
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,720
can you add 2 numbers together?
Can can you exchange?

878
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,160
Do you understand the process of
doing that?

879
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,800
Can you get answers right
repeatedly.

880
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,960
But it's more than arithmetic
because it kind of bleeds in

881
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:56,600
these aims as we talk through
the rest of them.

882
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:57,800
They believe leading with each
other.

883
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,840
Because when we're talking about
fluency, it might be that the

884
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,280
children can practise adding
some numbers together, but then

885
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,960
it might move very quickly to,
OK, well what about if the

886
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,960
missing, the missing number was
at the start and then we have an

887
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:10,080
equal sign and then the
addition.

888
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,360
That's part of fluency because
it's about understanding that

889
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,160
still doing the maths, it's just
in a slightly different context.

890
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:17,760
Sure, maybe there's a part hole
model.

891
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,920
So for this time I'm missing the
hole and then the two parts are

892
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,680
here, I'm going to have to put
them together and I'm still

893
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,000
going to be doing the same
maths.

894
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,320
I'm still going to be fluent in
it.

895
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,400
I'm still reading the sentence
in a different structure.

896
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,760
You're still teaching it to them
on the, you know, on the screen

897
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,000
or on your board and they're
then practising that exact skill

898
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,400
that you've done.
That's fluency.

899
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,320
That's fluency is the building
blocks of maths.

900
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,480
Yeah.
You can't do the other aims of

901
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,640
the curriculum until you're
fluent in something.

902
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,600
Yeah, you literally can't do it.
So that's the first aim.

903
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,080
Children become fluent in their
curriculum.

904
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,320
Yeah.
Second aim, reasoning.

905
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,520
So reasoning is like the next
step up.

906
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,600
So when we talk about reasoning,
what we mean is we're talking

907
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,240
about being able to explain,
being able to dive a little bit

908
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,520
deeper into thinking logically
about something.

909
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,640
You can make connections, you
can justify an answer, you can

910
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,400
extrapolate out and prove
something.

911
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,680
So it's not just doing the math
anymore, it's looking at

912
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,880
something and potentially saying
how that went wrong, I think.

913
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,120
It's the most important part of
the Quicken, by the way, because

914
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,199
I remember, you know, years ago
when I, when we were at

915
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:14,920
university, I then went on to do
my masters.

916
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,239
I'm just saying.
And one of the big things that

917
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:18,800
was really interesting was
looking at anxiety.

918
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:20,600
You know, you talk about anxiety
of it was looking at that

919
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,040
generation above us who has
tonnes of math anxiety in it

920
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,199
and, and one of the findings was
that they just, they just, it

921
00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:31,159
was very arithmetic based and
rote based and not much about

922
00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:32,480
the reasoning.
It was kind of like, here's a

923
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,719
trick that helps you to answer
this question.

924
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,719
The trick is completely
abstract.

925
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,320
You have no conceptual
understanding of what's going on

926
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:40,679
here.
But if you do this trick, you

927
00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:43,560
times those two together, you
draw a :) under that one and

928
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,639
then you dot these two numbers
and then you put the two dots

929
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:47,800
together like some weird trick,
right?

930
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,480
If you draw a butterfly around
the numbers then it works like

931
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,120
there's no no concept to
understand.

932
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,239
They have no reasoning skills.
So to me, like reasoning is like

933
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,560
the forefront of everything when
I'm thinking about kids and

934
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,360
doing maths.
Conceptual understanding hits

935
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,160
the nail on the head.
It's going that one step

936
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,080
further.
As a teacher, it's not just

937
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:04,640
spending the lesson adding two
numbers.

938
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,040
I'm going to go to adding 'cause
it's so simple.

939
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,440
It's not just a lesson adding
two numbers together in

940
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:09,960
different ways.
That's still fluency.

941
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:11,960
They're going to do it different
ways, like it's presented

942
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:13,240
differently.
It's in a parthole model.

943
00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:16,120
It's in a bar model.
Even in a word, problem can

944
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,600
still be fluency.
It really can because you're

945
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,680
teaching it and you're just
getting better at actually doing

946
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,000
the math.
We'll come into problem solving

947
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,960
in a minute because I think
that's a misconception we're

948
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,520
going to talk about.
But yeah, conceptual

949
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,920
understanding that is reasoning.
It's stopping and it's saying

950
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,760
what is this one worse?
When we exchange over the one,

951
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,320
what we actually doing here,
It's not one, is it?

952
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,200
Why it's 110?
Well, why do we have 110?

953
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,000
Well, because we added the ones
up and it bridged past 10.

954
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,800
So in 14 that four stays in the
ones column.

955
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,480
And I've actually swapped those
10 ones for A10.

956
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,200
And it's the kind of thing that
parents look at now and we

957
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,800
explain like why they're doing
this modern maths, this rubbish

958
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,760
maths.
I don't want to explain why am I

959
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,320
going to sit and write a
sentence in maths?

960
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:57,400
I'm just going to do some
adding.

961
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,000
No, no, the point is if you
really have a solid grasp of

962
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,240
that exchanging when it comes to
then doing short multiplication

963
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,560
or even short division and
you're exchanging over 7,

964
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,240
sometimes literally the idea is,
OK, I know that's 72 and I know

965
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:14,520
that's seven 10s.
And that's going to help me

966
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,120
conceptually understand that
idea of exchanging where when it

967
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,160
comes to doing short division
and short multiplication,

968
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,200
etcetera.
I as a teacher, don't need to

969
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,280
teach them this new trick
because it's not just carrying

970
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,800
the one.
If I, if I taught my kids just

971
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,040
put the one over, they, they
have no idea.

972
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,440
It comes from the fact it's 14.
They could.

973
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,840
Probably get the answer right in
those exact questions, yeah.

974
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,080
Exactly.
But they, but the, the IT just

975
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:36,920
enriches their understanding
and, you know, it makes

976
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,080
connections like we're talking
about with fluency and it just

977
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,320
embeds that lab.
People always do that diagram.

978
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,720
Then it's, it's cliche, it's
kind of cringy, the whole

979
00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:45,560
foundation thing, like a pyramid
sort of thing.

980
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,040
But it really is that genuinely,
if you have a really bitty

981
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,080
foundation where you've not
taught much of it, but you've

982
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,080
taught your kids tricks, it will
fall down eventually.

983
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,840
And you will find later on, like
you said, when you're teaching

984
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,960
other objectives, when they're
not able to make those links, it

985
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,760
will be just as painful.
Yeah, and I think you're

986
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,560
absolutely right.
And and explaining it's a big

987
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,360
part.
Language is a huge part of

988
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,720
reasoning.
Explaining what's going on is

989
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,040
actually impossible for a child
unless they've been taught the

990
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,560
vocabulary to do it.
So don't expect reasoning to be

991
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,680
a quick fix.
No, you can dip back into

992
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,440
reasoning and and if you're in
year 4, for example, you can dip

993
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,080
back to a year three or a year 2
objective to get them really

994
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:18,800
explaining something they
properly understand.

995
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:20,040
You've got to be able to do
something first.

996
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,360
You've got to be able to
exchange before you can explain

997
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,640
what exchanging is.
So you really need to, like you

998
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,440
said, build up those blocks and
things like sentence stems can

999
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,120
help children.
Vocabulary word banks can really

1000
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:31,560
help them.
It's not something you're just

1001
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,520
suddenly going to listen to this
and go, OK, yeah, I need to do

1002
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,400
more reasoning.
Can you explain that?

1003
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:36,800
Give them some questions.
Yeah, they can't.

1004
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,480
No, we had we had Gareth Metcalf
on this on this podcast,

1005
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,360
honestly, like a year ago,
really, really good episode.

1006
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,720
But he is someone I would if you
want somewhere to start like a

1007
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:45,920
quick easy win.
He has resources called IC

1008
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,320
reasoning as some other stuff as
well.

1009
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,000
And his resources are so good
genuinely for that.

1010
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,480
I remember using them earlier in
my career as a teacher because

1011
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,440
he he poses questions in a way
where it's like, oh, hit some of

1012
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,680
my favourite reasoning examples
right are where you give kids a

1013
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,280
fact you you give them OK,
right, 18 * 5.

1014
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,720
OK, you say it's 90 and then you
say, and it's not about them

1015
00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:06,800
solving it.
You just say, OK, explain how I

1016
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,080
can do 19 * 5 without doing any
formal multiplication.

1017
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,240
Stuff like that to me is
reasoning because it's like, OK,

1018
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:15,600
do the kids really truly
understand the concept of it's

1019
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,080
18 lots of five or it's 5 lots
of 18?

1020
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,800
And how they could use the idea
of lots of, if you're adding one

1021
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,160
more lot of it's, it's repeated
addition and it's linked to

1022
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:25,160
that.
And it's like, OK, if you taught

1023
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,360
addition really well back in the
time, back in the day when they

1024
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,800
did that and they understand the
repeated addition, well done.

1025
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,120
You've now got an easier ride
here.

1026
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,240
And it goes back to that analogy
of you're building a good

1027
00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:34,680
foundation.
So the reasoning is just

1028
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,800
constantly getting the kids to
justify their understanding and

1029
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,360
giving them new ways of looking
at things.

1030
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,000
So they really make a strong
connection with the mouse that

1031
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,720
they're learning to other parts
of maths and also just a deep

1032
00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:47,440
conceptual understanding of that
mouse, not just a surface level.

1033
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,480
They can pass the test though.
Do you know what don't care?

1034
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,000
If you really care about the
kids understanding mouse and

1035
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,800
like the whole going back to the
purpose being not being anxious

1036
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,720
when they're older and solving
real life problems, then you

1037
00:38:56,720 --> 00:38:59,400
have to care about that
conceptual understanding just as

1038
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,080
much as can they pass the test.
That's it's such an amazing

1039
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,520
analogy because I'm thinking
right now of that has real life

1040
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,880
connotations where where, for
example, let's say you're

1041
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:08,840
building something or measuring
something in a room.

1042
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:11,640
The idea of going back to
scratch and showing you're

1043
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,280
fluent in something isn't useful
anymore.

1044
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,360
You've already done a bunch of
the maths.

1045
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,680
Do you understand maths enough
where you can just go, oh, jad

1046
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,840
five that, that that link that
is, that is completely different

1047
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:22,480
to fluency.
And if your child is only doing

1048
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,320
fluency in their class, in their
lessons for maths, they're never

1049
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,400
ever going to make that link.
And that's such a strong

1050
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,520
indication to me.
That's the perfect example of

1051
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,800
reasoning, which because again,
I think reasoning, sometimes

1052
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,240
people just think, explain how
you did that and that's that's

1053
00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:38,080
it.
That's a type of reasoning.

1054
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,200
But that's the only reasoning
our children are getting that is

1055
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,120
weak.
Like if your reasoning is

1056
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,120
literally just loads of loads of
fluency in the lesson and at the

1057
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,200
end saying, how did you do this?
Oh, I added up the ones and then

1058
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:50,920
I had a 10 and I exchanged it.
That's cool.

1059
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,320
There's a place for that.
But your type of reason you just

1060
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,640
said there is making links and
connections and thinking things

1061
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,920
through and justifying and
proving like a big part of

1062
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,160
reasoning isn't just explaining
what you're doing, it's proving

1063
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:02,960
why it worked.
It's proving why someone's

1064
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,800
wrong.
And again, I do think we're

1065
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,160
going to talk about assessment
later, but when you look at the

1066
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,720
Sats and the classic thought
bubble questions they're doing

1067
00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:12,000
in your 6, quite often they are
a bit like that.

1068
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,520
You'll you'll have a question
which is like so big they

1069
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,400
couldn't possibly do it in their
head like 398 * * 17 and they'll

1070
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,120
say explain how you could work
out 18 * 398.

1071
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,200
Just flips it a bit and and that
is that is pure reasoning and

1072
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,880
children fail on that when they
haven't remotely been exposed to

1073
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,360
what you talking about like
unless they have a really solid

1074
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:31,800
understanding like you said,
Yeah.

1075
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,000
And I think for me, reasoning is
sprinkled throughout every

1076
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,360
lesson.
Yeah, I like, I really do think

1077
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,720
that reasoning is something that
you you might not see on a

1078
00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:43,760
Tuesday if you walk in at 10:30
AM because it's not timetabled

1079
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:44,640
in.
We're not timetabled in

1080
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:45,760
reasoning.
And we'll talk about problem

1081
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,360
solving, but it's reasoning is
something where it just goes

1082
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:49,640
hand in hand with fluency for
me.

1083
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,280
Yeah, that idea of just you, you
couldn't you, you can only

1084
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,760
become fluent in something as
you're becoming able to explain

1085
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,240
something.
And it is, that was reasoning I

1086
00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:02,800
think comes after fluency.
I do think during it you're kind

1087
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,080
of moulding it together into a
ball.

1088
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:05,600
It's funny, isn't it?
Because, because more often

1089
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,320
we'll talk about problem solving
now more oftenly it gets banded.

1090
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,520
Fluency is very separate and it
gets banded reasoning and

1091
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,120
problem solving.
And I think I certainly at the

1092
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,320
start of my career, for years,
I'd say genuinely, if you ask me

1093
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,120
what's the difference between
reasoning and problem solving, I

1094
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,200
wouldn't have now to tell you.
I really did just think they

1095
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:20,800
were the same thing and they
were just kind of like a term

1096
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:21,960
that's been put together of
them.

1097
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:23,200
So what?
What is?

1098
00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:24,320
Let's talk about problem
solving.

1099
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,800
Then what is problem solving?
And you know, I'm sure you'll

1100
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:28,520
make it obvious when you're
talking, but why is it different

1101
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,840
to this idea of reasoning,
conceptual understanding?

1102
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,040
Well, I think, OK, let's, let's
just really go over what we just

1103
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:35,800
said because I think it's
important to understand problem

1104
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,440
solving, that fluency and
reasoning to me are two sides of

1105
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,720
the same coin.
I, I really do think in my head,

1106
00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:43,200
as I've become more adept at
teaching maths, reasoning has

1107
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,160
moved much closer to problem
solving in my head.

1108
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:46,960
And it's just something you're
constantly doing.

1109
00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:50,200
I, I do think that you could at
most lessons walk into a room

1110
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,960
and at some point, at least if
it's just partner talk, even if

1111
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:54,720
you're introducing something for
the first time and really

1112
00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:56,680
looking at the very fluency
idea, there's going to be

1113
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,840
reasoning built in if it's being
taught really well.

1114
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,520
In my opinion, I think the way I
can justify how problem solving

1115
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,480
is different.
I think you could come into my

1116
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,680
classroom one or two or three
days in a row and not

1117
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:07,960
necessarily see any problem
solving.

1118
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,440
I think problem solving is the
end goal.

1119
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,040
I think, I think problem solving
is incredibly important.

1120
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,600
I think it's where everyone
should aim to be, where your

1121
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,240
children are becoming problem
solvers.

1122
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,120
And I don't think it matters how
good the children are at maths,

1123
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:23,960
their aim has to be to be
problem solvers at whatever

1124
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,320
level they're working at.
OK, so problem solving to me,

1125
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,480
and I think this is a widely
accepted definition of problem

1126
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:33,720
solving, is being able to apply
skills you've built up

1127
00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:36,560
mathematically to unfamiliar
problems.

1128
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:37,760
That's the keyword, isn't it?
That's the.

1129
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,960
Keyword.
It's only problem solving if the

1130
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,440
children are not familiar with
what they've got in front.

1131
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,280
Give me a classic example of
what's not problem solving.

1132
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,040
Then what's the most common
thing where people say this is

1133
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,160
problem solving and it is I'm.
Going to put two things in one

1134
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:50,680
here, OK?
And I really don't want to dig

1135
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,880
out people who do this because I
did this for many years of my

1136
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,960
career.
I can completely understand why

1137
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,520
people do it and I think there's
room for it again.

1138
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,720
But I don't think it's very good
practise and neither do Ofsted.

1139
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:03,680
And I think when we're thinking
about applying the curriculum,

1140
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,280
it's something we should try and
avoid now as we become more

1141
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,640
proficient at understanding
what's going on.

1142
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,640
I don't like seeing word problem
Fridays.

1143
00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:13,160
This, this was a big thing,
problem solving Friday, word

1144
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,400
problem Friday.
And and that whole idea was, it

1145
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,520
was to try and shoehorn in some
problem solving.

1146
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,560
So he took the make sure it's
happening fine.

1147
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,400
Brilliant.
Bad practise in my opinion.

1148
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,240
So what you might often see
people say is problem solving

1149
00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:28,080
is, well, it's in a word
problem, it's problem solving.

1150
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,600
It's not true.
OK, The biggest thing I I did

1151
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,280
this at the start of my career
so I'm going to talk about

1152
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:34,640
myself here.
So I'm digging myself out.

1153
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,000
Before anyone gets annoyed at me
if you did this as well, maybe

1154
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:39,200
we should just think about it
together.

1155
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,760
I used to do my maths lesson.
I'd do some fluency, what I

1156
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,840
thought was fluency, like maybe
do some practise 3 different

1157
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,920
ways of showing it called.
Then I'd do a question after

1158
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,400
which says explain how this
person did this wrong and to me

1159
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,240
that was my reasoning.
Take that off and then my

1160
00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:55,480
challenge always would just put
it as my challenge.

1161
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,280
Every day.
I'm going to think of a problem

1162
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,480
solving 1 here because the kids
who finish can get into the

1163
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,880
problem solving and the problem
solving question is just a 2

1164
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,280
step word problem where they
just do what they did at the

1165
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,640
start of the lesson in the
context of a word problem.

1166
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,440
Oh, and by the way, one of my
slides and my input was this

1167
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:11,880
word problem with different
numbers.

1168
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,600
So many reasons why it's not
problem solving.

1169
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:17,120
If you've literally shown the
children the structure of a word

1170
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,080
problem and how to solve it and
just change the number, by

1171
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:21,760
definition, it's not unfamiliar
anymore.

1172
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:23,920
It's just them regurgitating
what?

1173
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:25,160
There's no problem solving
involved.

1174
00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:26,040
Yeah, sure.
OK.

1175
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,200
And the second thing is every
child should be doing problem

1176
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,080
solving.
So if your problem solving is in

1177
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,560
your challenge or what you say
is your problem solving, by

1178
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:35,760
definition, not everyone's going
to get to the challenge as it

1179
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,960
wouldn't be that it's extra work
for children to do well and

1180
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,840
you're depriving your children
who are struggling a bit more

1181
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,080
the chance to problems.
OK, I'm.

1182
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,160
Going to hit you back then with
a common response to that, but

1183
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,280
my kids that are struggling
aren't fluent enough to do the

1184
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:48,400
problem solving in that lesson
yet.

1185
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,400
Yeah.
So again, what we say to our

1186
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,000
staff and I think it's really
important to make this clear to

1187
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,480
your staff and I don't think
you're a bad maths teacher if

1188
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,200
you think that.
I think that's a very.

1189
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,200
I think it's a logical thing.
Because you know what you cannot

1190
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,920
problem solve until you can do
the maths.

1191
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:04,800
I completely agree with you.
So I'd say to this person,

1192
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,480
you're absolutely right, what we
need to do is building time for

1193
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,360
these children to be doing some
problem solving on age

1194
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,280
appropriate level of maths for
them.

1195
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,120
So let's say they're in year 4
and they're working at a year 2

1196
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,360
level and you say they can't,
they can't, they don't access

1197
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,200
this year 4 curriculum.
How can they possibly problem

1198
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:22,680
solve?
They're still becoming fluent.

1199
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,280
I'd say you're right, it'll be a
waste of time to give them

1200
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:25,720
problem.
Solve.

1201
00:45:25,720 --> 00:45:27,080
Give them year 4 problem solving
questions.

1202
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:31,360
So go to year 2, you know, can
can your child add 7 past 10?

1203
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,520
Can they, can they do like 8 +
7?

1204
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:34,720
OK.
And you'll be like, yeah, sure.

1205
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:37,480
They, they can use a number line
and they can use A10 square

1206
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,240
there and they can go past and
they can do that.

1207
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,880
OK, cool.
Here's a Bank of year two

1208
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:43,720
problem solving questions for
additional retraction.

1209
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,080
There'll be something in there
where they can do the maths and

1210
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:47,680
then all their focus is on
problem solving.

1211
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:50,480
So I would say to them, look,
everyone needs to problem solve.

1212
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,040
It just needs to be problem
solving something they're fluent

1213
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:54,600
in.
If they're not quite fluent in

1214
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:55,800
it yet, don't do problem
solving.

1215
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,400
And that's what I mean when I
say even your children who are

1216
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,960
in your year group on the Year 4
curriculum, in this case, in

1217
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,320
Year 4 class, they still might
not be ready to problem solve

1218
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,640
after one lesson.
It's OK to not see it.

1219
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:08,480
You might see problem solving on
a Tuesday.

1220
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:09,640
Yeah.
And then you might see it again

1221
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:10,480
on a Thursday.
Yeah.

1222
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:11,760
You might not see it till the
Friday after.

1223
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,480
Yeah, It has to be appropriate.
When we had Ofsted in one of the

1224
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,360
one of the big things, we were
doing a lot of research at the

1225
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:17,360
time.
I think it was from like Third

1226
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:18,720
space learning or something like
that put together.

1227
00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:20,120
Reference in a second.
Oh, brilliant.

1228
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,720
Well, the the the the condensed
version of the Ofsted.

1229
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:24,800
OK, so.
No, no, no, no.

1230
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,240
I'm going to reference something
else first.

1231
00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:27,800
Space learning is fantastic.
It's a different thing, but

1232
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:29,840
they've got so much stuff.
Well, they'd they'd read all the

1233
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:30,840
obstet.
There was tonnes of obstet

1234
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:32,600
guidance about how they want to
see mouse write their deep dives

1235
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,480
and all this stuff, and they put
it into a nice document to read.

1236
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,440
I remember one of the big things
was like the do's and don'ts

1237
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,880
list.
It was Ofsted will.

1238
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,080
It will be like a red flag to
them if they see that you've

1239
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,560
planned Robin problem solving
into every single lesson and in

1240
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:47,840
like on the surface that sounds
like what what they're talking

1241
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:49,200
about.
And it's the reason it's a red

1242
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,800
flag is because it honestly,
it's so like based on everything

1243
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,360
Dylan just said, by definition,
then it's very, very, very hard

1244
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,120
to get to have your kids
constantly fluent in every

1245
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,320
single thing you're teaching
ever in every lesson that they

1246
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:02,960
can do problem solving
immediately in that lesson.

1247
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,040
It's not going to happen.
It realistically won't happen.

1248
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,720
It might take a few days of
building up that fluency and

1249
00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:11,440
reasoning together before you
can say, right, I think you've,

1250
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,680
I think it's there.
I think you are fluent enough

1251
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,320
that I can give you an
unfamiliar problem.

1252
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,120
And you're going to be able to
pull those though that all that

1253
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,440
new learning to the forefront of
your brain and combine it all

1254
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,440
together to solve this problem.
I couldn't have done that

1255
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,280
yesterday because honestly, you
just weren't there yet.

1256
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,320
You just were not fluent enough.
It would have been confusing.

1257
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,200
You would have then developed
anxiety around this.

1258
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,080
It would have been a fail.
So yeah, it was interesting that

1259
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,120
Ofsted actively went out of the
way to be like, this is not a

1260
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:34,720
good thing.
Like schools need to stop saying

1261
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:36,760
to their teachers.
We need to see problem solving

1262
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:37,960
every single day.
And then everyone does the

1263
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:38,920
challenge question that you
said.

1264
00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:41,400
It's just a misconception.
So we talked about how it's not

1265
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,200
just necessarily word problems
we talked about we don't

1266
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:44,200
necessarily need to see every
day.

1267
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:46,680
And I think I'm going to pick up
what you said there about how

1268
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:48,320
you need to be fluent before you
can do problem solving.

1269
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,000
And the idea is that if you're
fluent in the mass, you've got

1270
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,080
one less thing to cognitively
load in your mind through.

1271
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,680
So when it comes to problem
solving, you can spend a lot of

1272
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,640
the time on actually problem
solving.

1273
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,120
OK.
And, and trying to diagnose what

1274
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:02,400
to do with this problem.
Yeah.

1275
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,040
And again, I'm going to
reference Third Space Learning.

1276
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,200
They put together this PDF and
it like, for years now, I've had

1277
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:09,680
it printed off.
And I just keep it in my mind

1278
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:10,800
constantly.
I'm thinking about this.

1279
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,040
And it's the nine ways of
tackling a problem.

1280
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:13,760
Oh.
Yeah, cool.

1281
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,080
And it's and we'll go for it
now, because lots of people were

1282
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,440
listening to this like I was a
few years ago when I had my mind

1283
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,160
opened to what problem solving
actually was.

1284
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,160
And I remember just thinking to
myself, OK, well, OK, well if

1285
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,680
it's not word problem and stuff,
well what is problem?

1286
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:26,080
What?
Is it?

1287
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:27,800
Tell me what it is so.
Problem solving.

1288
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,800
We should be thinking about it
as in focusing on the skills

1289
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:32,960
required to solve a problem.
Sure not.

1290
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,440
Here's a problem, here's how it
works.

1291
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,520
Apply it with different numbers.
Not problem solving.

1292
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:42,200
Problem solving, it's so vague,
it's hard, but if you focus on

1293
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,640
the skills involved, you can
make sure your children have

1294
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,560
like a wide diet of problem
solving.

1295
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:48,200
And I'm going to go through it
all nine right here and

1296
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:49,440
technique.
And I'm going to give an example

1297
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,400
of what it might look like.
OK, so I'm going to talk about

1298
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,720
first technique.
One, open-ended problems.

1299
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:56,920
This can be a problem in itself,
just literally an open-ended

1300
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:58,840
problem.
For example, an example of this

1301
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,760
would be you might be doing
you've just done some error in

1302
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:03,640
perimeter.
You're like at the end of that

1303
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:04,800
unit.
Now you think your children are

1304
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,000
really solid with error in
perimeter.

1305
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,520
They understand what the words
mean, what they are you can say

1306
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:12,760
to okay, the area of a rectangle
is 24 centimetres squared.

1307
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,040
What are the length of its
sides?

1308
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,440
Okay, so there's not one answer.
There's not one answer.

1309
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:18,160
Not one answer.
Yeah.

1310
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,440
So as as a teacher then you know
they're proficient with what

1311
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,440
area is, they know that you know
they can draw a rectangle out,

1312
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,400
they know opposite sides and a
rectangle the same.

1313
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:27,480
All of that base knowledge is
there.

1314
00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:30,720
Their entire focus, then, is on
trying things out.

1315
00:49:30,720 --> 00:49:32,080
Open-ended, more than one
option.

1316
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,080
This is a good example of where
reasoning and problem solving do

1317
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,000
join up and it's really is a
perfect example.

1318
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,720
OK, that is where a child now
reasoning is this floater in the

1319
00:49:39,720 --> 00:49:41,600
middle where generally it's we
teach it with fluency.

1320
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:43,120
That's a good example where
they're using both.

1321
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:45,640
They have to reason, they have
to explain why there's multiple

1322
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:46,760
answers.
They have to explain why.

1323
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,320
Well, if I half this side, this
one might double that.

1324
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,400
Got like that kind of thing.
But it's a problem because as a

1325
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:54,640
teacher, you should be building
in an environment where they

1326
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:56,200
haven't seen this question
before.

1327
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,640
They don't know.
They've got no tangible way of

1328
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,280
like, well, Sir showed me a
minute ago to draw a rectangle.

1329
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,560
No, no, let them try it out
themselves.

1330
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:04,880
That is the art of problem
solving.

1331
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,400
And why is it important?
Not because in a test they're

1332
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,800
going to, this is going to come
up again, by definition.

1333
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,440
It's unfamiliar by definition.
So it's not teaching to a test.

1334
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,120
This is why it gets so warped.
It gets so warped into being A2

1335
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,000
mark question, I might say on
the SAT, that's your problem

1336
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,880
solving.
No, it's not though, is it?

1337
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,360
Problem solving is literally by
definition something that they

1338
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,240
won't see before and won't
necessarily see again.

1339
00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:28,320
In that context, yeah.
Good.

1340
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:30,240
What's the next?
One, use logical reasoning.

1341
00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:32,640
So by this I mean I'm thinking
of those word riddles where it's

1342
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,280
like 1 cinema has X amount of
people in it and the other

1343
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,600
cinema has 13 fewer.
Cinema 4 has half the amount of

1344
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:42,360
cinema 2 and and they're getting
this, all this information and

1345
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:43,880
you've got to try and organise
it.

1346
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:45,560
Be logical.
What comes ahead of what?

1347
00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:47,720
Yeah.
And and that idea of just being

1348
00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:49,280
logical itself, it's not in the
curriculum.

1349
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,680
It might be that the third line
Cinema 3 is your kind of start

1350
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,000
point because it tells you
Cinema 3 has 50 receipts or

1351
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:56,840
whatever and they're like, OK,
now I know that I can go back to

1352
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,680
line one because that told me
that Cinema one has half of

1353
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:00,200
Cinema 3 and then come on, I
know that one.

1354
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,360
I can then work out four and
then I can find the total.

1355
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,440
And what you can sprinkle in
with these questions is whilst

1356
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,680
it's still problem solving, you
can sprinkle in what you've

1357
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:08,520
recently done.
If you've recently done

1358
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,560
multiples, have it twice as
much, 7 times as much, half as

1359
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:13,560
much.
If you've done halving that

1360
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,040
stuff, you can basically tail
your your problem solving to

1361
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,280
have maths in it that your
children have become fluent in

1362
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,800
to really then focus on the idea
of OK, being logical and still

1363
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,680
applying what they've done,
still doing maths that's

1364
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,600
relevant to the curriculum.
Next one, working backwards.

1365
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:29,480
Think about those inverse
machines you get.

1366
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,080
But it might be written in words
this time.

1367
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,760
So you might say Sally's just
had her birthday.

1368
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,040
She's three years younger than
Pete, and Pete's half the age of

1369
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,160
Bob.
Bob just celebrated his 42nd

1370
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:40,560
birthday.
Yeah, you know, work backwards

1371
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,040
to get back to the original age.
Exactly.

1372
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:43,200
It's.
Different because there's one

1373
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,400
linear way of getting there, but
how the children are going to do

1374
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:46,320
that?
They're going to do one at a

1375
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:47,400
time.
Have you just done inverse

1376
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,280
together?
Can I take a really good example

1377
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,360
of this in year 6 as a year 6
teacher, I see it every single

1378
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,600
year and it's such a good way of
me understanding whether a child

1379
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,800
understands fractions of amounts
properly.

1380
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,320
Fractions of amounts is a year 4
objective if you're not too sure

1381
00:51:58,320 --> 00:51:59,600
of that.
So by year six, we do kind of

1382
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:01,520
expect this to be fairly
confident and fluent with that,

1383
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,560
right?
And as soon as I give even like

1384
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,200
a top set, if we, if you're
doing setting maths Group A

1385
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:12,600
question that's like 1/3 of a
number is 12 or even harder, 3/4

1386
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,480
of a number is 12.
What was the original number?

1387
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,480
That's that kind of idea.
That to me is such a good

1388
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,240
problem to give a kid once
they've become fluent in finding

1389
00:52:19,240 --> 00:52:22,280
fractions of amounts, because it
really requires them to think

1390
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:23,960
about their conceptual
understanding.

1391
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,720
And if you've just taught them a
trick, divide by the denominator

1392
00:52:26,720 --> 00:52:29,200
times by the top and you've
never ever, ever showed them

1393
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,120
anything else, right?
They just know that that trick

1394
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:32,520
works.
They will not know how to solve

1395
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,120
that problem.
And again, I'm going to whizz

1396
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:35,920
through the rest now because
we're going to link down below

1397
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:37,960
the document.
It's well worth reading if you

1398
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:39,760
want to look into.
Problems do like a really quick

1399
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:40,960
example.
But yeah, for example, there

1400
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:42,720
that.
But what I'm saying here is the

1401
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:44,480
different techniques we're going
to talk about and I'm going to

1402
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,680
whizz through now can be used
multiple for one question.

1403
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:48,440
So you're talking about there
it's kind of like inverse

1404
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:49,920
working backwards understanding
something.

1405
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,640
I'd also say in that case,
technique 4, for example, is

1406
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:55,640
draw a diagram.
Yeah, I'd be drawing a diagram

1407
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:56,920
now.
I'd be drawing the quarters out.

1408
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:58,520
I'd be doing a bar model if it's
necessary.

1409
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,280
Do you know what I mean?
So it's not just like these

1410
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:01,360
techniques we're talking about
here.

1411
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:03,640
They're not just like pick one
and do it.

1412
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:05,840
It's like a bookshelf.
You might take 3 and you need.

1413
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,640
Some models is your overall
point here is we can teach these

1414
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,440
individual skills and once we've
taught all nine of these skills,

1415
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,880
yes, they'll be better at
problem solving with genuine

1416
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:15,640
unfamiliar because.
Then it's completely unfamiliar.

1417
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,400
They might say, well OK, I'll
try for example technique 9,

1418
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,560
trial and improvement.
I'll let you just whack a number

1419
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:22,320
and see if it works.
That could work for the inverse

1420
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,880
machine working backwards.
They might try and work

1421
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:26,440
backwards.
That doesn't quite work for

1422
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:28,520
them.
OK, well my teachers taught me

1423
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:29,640
all these techniques to problem
solving.

1424
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,280
Let me try just putting a number
in and the whole point here is

1425
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,400
if they become proficient in
these different techniques of

1426
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,760
problem solving, again, click on
the link for the rest of them

1427
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,120
because there's few in there.
Drawing a table be an organised

1428
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:41,520
spotting a pattern.
The idea is that's a that's a

1429
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:43,240
tool book.
Then for them, not only can they

1430
00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:46,880
solve problems in class when
they're older, think of all of

1431
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:48,680
these things here.
If you can visualise stuff well,

1432
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,440
if you can try something out.
The amount of times we use trial

1433
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:53,920
improvement in everyday life,
honestly all the time, and we're

1434
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,280
estimating things and we go
shopping and we say things be

1435
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:59,200
this much roughly and we don't
work in exacts all the time, but

1436
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:00,960
it's problem solving.
Same with a rough ballpark.

1437
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,160
Can I draw a table out?
Can I Draw Something out if I'm

1438
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:05,640
trying to understand something?
I love getting a piece of paper

1439
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,360
and just drawing stuff and then
that for me in my brain solves

1440
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:09,960
that problem because I can see
it differently.

1441
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,520
So the point here is problem
solving is the most important

1442
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:15,440
part of the curriculum.
You're building a toolbox for

1443
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,560
life.
When someone says why, Why in

1444
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:22,080
school do they teach me about 24
centimetres squared and what the

1445
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:23,680
perimeter would be?
Why don't they teach me about my

1446
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,320
taxes?
They did teach you about your

1447
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,400
taxes because they taught you
the maths and they taught you

1448
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,400
how to problem solve.
I can't.

1449
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:31,880
It's like the history degree
thing.

1450
00:54:32,240 --> 00:54:35,120
When people come to me and say
you've got a history degree,

1451
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:36,600
have you?
I bet you do you know everything

1452
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,000
ever.
No they they didn't teach me

1453
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:40,760
everything ever.
You could pick something up.

1454
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,400
Why did you teach me exactly
this about African history but

1455
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:45,920
in pre colonial times?
Because that's what I chose to

1456
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:47,360
do.
But you know what I learnt?

1457
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,160
I learnt the.
Skills how to research of.

1458
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:52,200
How to research of how to take
bias into account, how to go to

1459
00:54:52,240 --> 00:54:54,040
the library, how to interpret
sources.

1460
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:55,280
It's so true.
How to write an essay.

1461
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,040
Those skills.
Now I could pick up and apply to

1462
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,760
19th century Hungary if I wanted
to, but I built those skills up.

1463
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:03,760
So if someone comes to me and
say, why didn't they teach you

1464
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:04,920
about this and your history
degree?

1465
00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:07,520
They didn't need to.
They taught me the skills

1466
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,480
required to be able to learn
about it.

1467
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:11,760
Same with your taxes.
Same with your other things.

1468
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:13,800
Look, I think there's space for
stuff like that in the

1469
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,440
curriculum when they're older.
Don't get me wrong, but it winds

1470
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,200
me up a bit when people say they
didn't teach me this exact

1471
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,080
thing.
No, because it's a process.

1472
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,920
And that's why the aims of the
maths curriculum are fluency,

1473
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,840
reasoning and problem solving.
And it's why if you look at the

1474
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,800
purpose of the maths curriculum,
it is embedded in real life

1475
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,000
problem solving.
Because we can't teach you how

1476
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:33,760
to do everything.
Because when you're 8 you don't

1477
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,000
quite understand compound
interest and how to invest or

1478
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,120
how to do your income returns.
But what you can do is start to

1479
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:40,920
learn how to do trial
improvement, start to learn how

1480
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,120
to understand something, start
to learn how to draw a picture

1481
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:44,760
to get something in your mind a
bit clearer.

1482
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,000
These are the problem solving
skills that allow mathematicians

1483
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,200
to grow and interpret the real
world.

1484
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,760
Yeah, yeah, but in English, Sir.
Same thing in English, Sir.

1485
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:55,920
Why did you teach me
specifically how to do this

1486
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:57,800
newspaper report?
I want to write books.

1487
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:59,320
So what?
We didn't, did we?

1488
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:01,400
We actually taught you loads of
different writing skills.

1489
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:02,960
We applied them in some
examples.

1490
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,000
And now you've got this whole
plethora, this whole Bank of

1491
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,840
vocabulary, sentence structures,
different types of writing,

1492
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:09,480
formality.
You can go and apply it to

1493
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:10,680
anything you want.
It's the same sort of thing,

1494
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:11,440
isn't it?
Exactly.

1495
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,200
I think it links to English more
than I realised.

1496
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,000
The more we talk about it let's
you know the whole idea again,

1497
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:17,880
kind of independent writing.
It's like you don't, you don't.

1498
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:21,320
You said problem solving is not
putting it on the screen,

1499
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,200
showing them how to do it, give
them different numbers.

1500
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:24,520
Do you know what independent
writing isn't?

1501
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,480
It isn't giving them the writing
on the screen and then saying

1502
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:28,480
right, replace all the
adjectives.

1503
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:29,800
Now it's your writing.
It's not, is it?

1504
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,280
It's actually about building up
the fluency over a couple of

1505
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:34,920
weeks, perhaps building up the
skills, giving them everything

1506
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:36,760
they need to know, showing the
modelling, modelling, modelling

1507
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,520
along the way and then saying
here's an unfamiliar environment

1508
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:40,840
because it's a brand new piece
of writing.

1509
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:43,200
Can you write me about this now
and seeing if they can apply it

1510
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:44,200
and can they apply it straight
away?

1511
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:45,520
No, not always, but you know
what?

1512
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:46,920
They're at school for years.
You come back to it, you

1513
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,640
revisit, you revisit, you
revisit.

1514
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,720
So I think we should now talk
about how we actually structure

1515
00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:53,120
the curriculum.
I know we're already going on

1516
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:55,200
way into this episode, so we
might have to cut some stuff

1517
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,600
here, Dylan, but I feel like we
should talk about, I really want

1518
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,840
to talk about like, like, like
the scheme, like the overview,

1519
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,400
how you how you look at maths,
because there's two massive

1520
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,680
parts of maths, which I think
are like long rivals and people

1521
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:08,640
always argue about them.
The types of curriculum, I

1522
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:12,080
should say, which is should we
teach maths in a block

1523
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:14,240
curriculum or a spiral
curriculum?

1524
00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:15,560
And let me just clarify what
those are.

1525
00:57:15,720 --> 00:57:19,080
So a spiral curriculum is this
idea that you kind of you, you

1526
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,880
revisit, typically you revisit
the whole curriculum three times

1527
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:23,640
across the year.
You sort of go over everything

1528
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:26,040
up to Christmas and you kind of
go over it all again after that.

1529
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:27,560
You kind of go over it all again
before summer.

1530
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:29,720
So they're constantly coming
back to it, which is a really

1531
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,600
good concept I get.
And the block curriculum is this

1532
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:34,720
idea of like, no, rather than
doing a bit of addition now and

1533
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:36,640
a bit of addition after
Christmas and a bit of addition

1534
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:40,560
in June, I'm just going to teach
every single edition objective

1535
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:44,600
right now in a massive block.
And I'm not then going to teach

1536
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:46,480
that as my main objective again
for the rest of the year.

1537
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:48,520
So let's talk about those two
things.

1538
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,000
What are your, I feel like
you're the expert today.

1539
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:52,960
I'm, I'm really enjoying
listening to you, even though

1540
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:54,080
I've heard all this stuff
before.

1541
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,280
What's your opinion on the
spiral curriculum versus the

1542
00:57:57,280 --> 00:57:59,520
block curriculum?
Do you have a favourite or do

1543
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:01,680
you think there's just a whole
new perspective we need to take?

1544
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,240
So I, I've been on like a roller
coaster journey with my opinion

1545
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,320
on this because when I started
out, I, I, I started out my

1546
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,920
teaching after the new
curriculum came in and it was

1547
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:12,600
like mastery push block
teaching's the way to go.

1548
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:14,520
You should block, teach, blah,
blah, blah.

1549
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:15,560
And I thought that for a long
time.

1550
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:18,960
Then I came round to it like,
well, do you know, it's maybe in

1551
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,480
10 years we'll say Spiral's the
best way again and come back to

1552
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:23,160
it.
And my opinion for a long time

1553
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:24,680
was, do you know what?
It doesn't really matter as long

1554
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:26,320
as you're doing it this year, as
long as you're going to have

1555
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:28,160
started it, it's cool.
I've actually come back around

1556
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:31,240
to, I'm happy to sit here and
say I think block teaching is

1557
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:33,160
better.
I'm happy to sit here and say

1558
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:34,640
that it comes with a caveat.
I was.

1559
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:35,760
Going to say are there any like
it?

1560
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,720
Does come with a caveat because
I I completely agree when people

1561
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:41,680
say it's insanely idea.
If you think about place value,

1562
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,760
for example, doing block
teaching in Year 4, we do place

1563
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:47,640
value for two or three weeks in
September and then it's not on

1564
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:49,680
the curriculum again.
Until the next year.

1565
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,200
Yeah.
Do you really think a good maths

1566
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,560
teacher will only do place value
for three weeks and a year at

1567
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:56,360
the start and then just expect a
child to understand it?

1568
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:58,320
What and?
And never mention it again.

1569
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:00,000
Exactly.
No, that's not what happens.

1570
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:04,800
So I think what I think in terms
of teaching new things and

1571
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:08,800
really going down that route of
reasoning and fluency and then

1572
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,880
the chance to do some problem
solving, I think you can only

1573
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:13,560
really do that in a block.
Yeah, OK.

1574
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,240
You can really have two or three
weeks to get into it and then

1575
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,360
you don't have have to worry
about shoehorning in problem

1576
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:20,080
solving because you know you've
got to move on to something else

1577
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:21,400
next week.
You've got two weeks.

1578
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:23,240
Why don't you think you can do
it as spiral as well I.

1579
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:24,880
Think, I think you can do it as
spiral, but I think you'd be

1580
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:26,120
rushing.
I think I'm thinking about,

1581
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:29,200
let's say we're doing additional
subtraction for a week in before

1582
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,200
Christmas and then a week before
Eastern, a week at the end,

1583
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:32,200
right?
Let's just say it's three weeks

1584
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:34,520
or four weeks.
I think you're really rushing

1585
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,200
then at the start to cover
everything, OK, You'll be doing

1586
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,080
at such a surface level that the
children don't get that chance

1587
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:42,520
to reason and problem solve and
really embed that learning into

1588
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:44,440
their long term memory.
I think you kind of just skim

1589
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:46,240
over it.
Kids kind of get it, they can

1590
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:47,360
kind of do it and they're
caught.

1591
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:49,160
I don't have to go over this
again because I'm doing it in

1592
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:51,720
three months and it becomes like
this false sense of, well, I'm

1593
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:53,680
coming back to it, so it's fine.
And then in three months,

1594
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:56,120
ironically, they've forgotten.
They've forgotten more than they

1595
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:58,000
would have forgotten if you
literally did it the week after.

1596
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,480
So then you're revisiting things
that maybe you wouldn't have had

1597
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,720
to have done if you were
literally teaching that week,

1598
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:04,240
the week after the first time
you did it.

1599
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:05,560
I agree.
For me, it's like this graph

1600
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:07,720
that kind of goes up and dips
down a little bit because you've

1601
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:10,080
left it too long.
They were starting to get it.

1602
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:11,880
They were starting to get.
They just needed another week or

1603
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,480
two to really master.
And that's the whole quick one,

1604
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:15,160
isn't it?
Mastery.

1605
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,640
Yeah, I think what's important
though to say is I think you

1606
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:21,880
have to build in time to revisit
stuff.

1607
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:24,520
You don't have to do whole
lessons on it, but you have to

1608
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:26,120
build in time.
For example, this is what we've

1609
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:27,440
done.
We've been really strict of this

1610
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:29,680
in our school.
Maths is almost split into two.

1611
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:33,440
OK, so maths we have, let me
think of the exact timings.

1612
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:36,840
We have an hour and 15 minutes
for maths and what we say to

1613
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:41,760
people is 20 to 25 minutes every
single morning is for your times

1614
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,120
table, your basic facts and
you're revisiting your

1615
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:46,680
recapping, going over stuff or
pre teaching, which we call it

1616
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:48,320
sounds like a lot.
A starter time.

1617
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:51,240
It's called starter time, but
it's mixed starter time and it

1618
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:53,960
doesn't have to have anything to
do with your lesson that day.

1619
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:56,160
It is literally like a separate
lesson.

1620
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:58,680
So in that time you might think,
do you know what?

1621
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:01,160
It's been a couple of weeks.
We did addition for three weeks.

1622
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:03,080
They're really good at it, but I
want to keep this ticking over.

1623
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:05,720
So on Tuesday this week we're
going to do like a 10 minute bit

1624
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:07,240
on on an addition of
subtraction.

1625
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:08,840
Yeah.
Oh, actually my children were

1626
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:10,320
really fluent with what we did
last week.

1627
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:12,800
We've moved on to area now, but
I can give them a problem to

1628
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:14,640
solve, that's where.
Problem solve they can apply.

1629
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:15,800
Fluid.
Let's see if they can apply

1630
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:17,240
exactly that.
Let's do some problem solving.

1631
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:19,720
Nothing to do today's lesson,
but I'm going to do some problem

1632
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:21,360
solving for something I think
they're fluent in that we've

1633
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,480
just done.
Then on Friday you might think,

1634
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,400
OK, well, actually in the
future, I know, I know coming up

1635
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:28,680
in area, I actually really want
to be really strong with their

1636
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:31,080
factor pairs and their
understanding of times tables.

1637
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:33,440
So I'm going to really focus on
the seven times table because my

1638
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,080
class were weak with that and
it's going to help them in the

1639
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:36,760
future and it helps them with
the times tables.

1640
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:39,680
It can look scattered.
It could look crazy to someone

1641
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:41,320
coming in.
There's no coherence there in

1642
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:44,520
terms of from the outside, but
as the teacher with your class,

1643
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:47,520
you're doing what they need.
So the other year 4 class, the

1644
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:50,920
other year 4 class parallel, I
would expect to see different

1645
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,120
starters.
Maybe 80% could be the same,

1646
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:55,200
don't get me wrong, but I would
expect to see, oh gosh, you know

1647
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:56,760
what, my class, I just want to
go over this again.

1648
01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:00,440
So and then when it comes to the
lesson themselves, that's block

1649
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,080
teaching, that's getting right
into the nitty gritty, sticking

1650
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:05,640
your teeth into it, getting them
to be really fluent through

1651
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:09,760
reasoning and through very
fluency and then problem solving

1652
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:12,800
irrelevant or use your starter
time when they become fluent.

1653
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:14,080
Sure.
Can I try and summarise what you

1654
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:15,480
said and you can tell me if I've
missed anything?

1655
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:17,840
So I think what you're saying
here is it's a bit of a cop out

1656
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:18,720
really.
It's bit both, isn't it?

1657
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:21,520
When it comes to teaching,
teaching the main objectives of

1658
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:23,280
of your lesson, especially with
new learning.

1659
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:25,720
We should teach in blocks, allow
children to master that

1660
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:27,800
objective before we move on with
as much time as possible.

1661
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:31,920
But we should reserve a time in
lessons that is sacred for

1662
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:33,560
revisiting.
We call it starters.

1663
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:36,560
And that very much adopts a
spiral approach of there is no

1664
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:38,400
set rule.
You revisit things as much as

1665
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,400
you wish, as often as you wish
or as little as you wish.

1666
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:43,960
But everything should be
revisited across the year to

1667
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,960
ensure that children are
remembering the learning and

1668
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:49,680
having a go and having a chance
to correct things if they didn't

1669
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:52,280
actually quite get it at the
time and even just solidify or

1670
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:53,800
even go further with a bit of
problem solving.

1671
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,440
So the spiral curriculum is
embedded into our block

1672
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:58,200
curriculum.
It's a bit of both.

1673
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:00,280
There's not one or the other.
Yeah.

1674
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:02,280
Interesting.
I think, I think in that we can

1675
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:04,960
talk about whole times tables
because I think especially lower

1676
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:06,840
down in the school when you
learn your times tables, you can

1677
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:09,400
use that time to just practise.
Don't be scared of rote

1678
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:11,600
learning.
You wanted to talk very I think

1679
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,680
about the whole thing about the
lesson structure and diving into

1680
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:17,320
new learning.
The reason block works well is

1681
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:19,920
because it allows a slower
approach.

1682
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,240
It allows you to go into what we
are widely accepted for new

1683
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:25,600
learning and maths is is the
best way to do it.

1684
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:28,200
Is the CPA approach the concrete
pictorial abstract?

1685
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,440
Maybe you could briefly just
talk about what you'd expect to

1686
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:33,600
see in a good maths lesson,
introducing a new topic.

1687
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:35,280
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What would it look like?

1688
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:36,640
So.
Let's let's break down some

1689
01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:37,880
misconceptions as well as we
talk.

1690
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:39,880
So concrete pictorial abstract,
you will have heard if you're a

1691
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:42,520
teacher, it's it was especially
over the last decade, it's been

1692
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:44,120
a buzzword.
It's the idea.

1693
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:46,040
And this is what this is what
it's really used for.

1694
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:49,520
It's not if your school has an
approach of every lesson, I want

1695
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:51,840
to see some concrete resources
out for your lower ability.

1696
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,120
I want to see some pictorial
stuff for your middles, and I

1697
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:55,360
want your tops working in the
abstract.

1698
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:57,480
That is not.
What concrete pictorial abstract

1699
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:59,720
process is that This is what it
really is.

1700
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:03,920
When a child, any child, any
ability, learns something brand

1701
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:05,240
new.
They've never looked at this

1702
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:06,800
objective before in a previous
year.

1703
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:09,440
You should start in the
concrete.

1704
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:11,920
What do you mean by the?
Concrete, so physical.

1705
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,640
The physical world, something
you can touch, something you can

1706
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:15,720
manipulate.
That's what we call the

1707
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:17,840
manipulators, manipulatives.
Manipulatives.

1708
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,600
Quite often I can't speak, but
things like Deans, blocks,

1709
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:22,680
counters, those kinds of things,
they're all manipulatives that

1710
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:24,240
you can hold, and I try.
And manipulate you.

1711
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:27,200
Are you a manipulative?
I'm manipulate, manipulatable.

1712
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:31,160
That's malleable, hard words.
No, no, no, no, no.

1713
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:32,560
Make it harder, but.
Yeah, sorry, you said.

1714
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:34,520
So you start is.
Anything manipulative.

1715
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:36,360
I'm just I'm interested here.
Like what what?

1716
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:38,080
What do you mean by?
Honestly, literally anything

1717
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:39,240
that helps understand the
concept.

1718
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:41,040
Genuinely anything.
It doesn't have to be something

1719
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:42,360
you bought on the teacher
website.

1720
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:43,600
That's like, all these blocks
are perfect.

1721
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:45,000
It can be anything.
You can bring in something from

1722
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,360
home, be cups if they're useful
for what you're doing, whatever.

1723
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:50,640
And then because you're teaching
them the concept at that point,

1724
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:53,120
the idea is you're allowing them
to build conceptual

1725
01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:55,880
understanding in the easiest
way, which is the real world.

1726
01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:59,320
You know, you don't go up to a
person that's learning like a 2

1727
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:01,120
year old.
You don't go up to them and the

1728
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:03,320
first time they've ever, ever
had any encounter with a tree,

1729
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,800
You don't show them the word
tree, do you?

1730
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:08,160
You go up to a tree in real life
and you let them touch it and

1731
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:09,920
you say tree, This is a tree,
right?

1732
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:11,160
And then eventually, do you know
what?

1733
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:13,120
Once, once they really start to
get the idea, you can show them

1734
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:15,320
a picture of a tree and they'll
start to be like, Oh, that's

1735
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:17,160
that thing that I've seen in
real life, because obviously the

1736
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,920
real life makes my sense to me.
And then eventually you can say,

1737
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:22,120
here's these random squiggles
that we've made-up that

1738
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:25,080
represent this idea of tree mass
is the same.

1739
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,000
So getting them to the
squiggles, the numbers at the

1740
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:29,160
end, yeah.
So when when with Rory, I want

1741
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:31,200
to teach what a lion is, I
should take them up to a lion

1742
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:37,480
that's concrete.
Let him touch the.

1743
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:41,000
Lion right, Let him feel the
inside of the lions mouth.

1744
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:44,760
Lion sharply.
Then can I show him a picture?

1745
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:48,720
Yeah, OK, alright, maybe he
doesn't have to touch the lion.

1746
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:53,880
You know what, you're joking.
But there is actually a really

1747
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,560
good point here, which is you
can quite often start in the

1748
01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:59,000
pictorial genuinely there.
There is a middle ground where

1749
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:00,360
some things.
It's a journey.

1750
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:01,920
And you could, yeah.
It's a journey and it's quite

1751
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:03,760
often you could if it's
something is so obvious, like

1752
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:05,600
the lines gonna eat like like
this.

1753
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:08,360
Manipulative Will bio.
You know like classic reception

1754
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:10,920
right where they do they will
use like apples when they apples

1755
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:12,880
that do you know what they don't
need real apples.

1756
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:15,440
They might have counters to
represent the apples to so they

1757
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:18,000
can physically move something.
They can understand the idea of

1758
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:20,120
the number, but you know what
the apple is just something so.

1759
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:22,280
Even in the concrete though,
right?

1760
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:24,280
Even in the concrete there is
also progression.

1761
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,560
So you think like Dean's blocks,
like physically there's one

1762
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:30,440
small block, physically there's
a 10 which is literally 10 times

1763
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:31,840
bigger.
Then there's 100, which is

1764
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:34,160
literally 10 times bigger and
you can get ten 10s and see it's

1765
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:36,080
100.
So that's something you could do

1766
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:37,960
with honestly your three
children, even your two children

1767
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:40,120
with the ones you might do if
your receptions and you're just

1768
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:41,880
counting and stuff.
But then there's still

1769
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:45,000
progression there because still
with the concrete is you think

1770
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:47,600
about place fire counters where
they have a one written on them

1771
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:50,200
and a 10 written on them.
And I've said this for a long

1772
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:54,080
time, I think counters are
closer to pictorial than they

1773
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:55,800
are to concrete.
And, and there'll be people who

1774
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:57,840
though who'll say concrete,
pictorial, abstract, let's get

1775
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:01,880
the counters out first.
I'm like, oh, OK, actually, why

1776
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:02,840
are you getting the concrete
out?

1777
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:05,760
It's because it's new learning.
Do they understand the relation

1778
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:07,000
between?
One and two, my answer to this

1779
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:09,280
is every time that is, and I
think this is valid, is that

1780
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:11,320
both of them are do their new
learning in different ways.

1781
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:13,760
Exactly When you're getting out
the Deans blocks, the new

1782
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:16,400
learning is honestly them
literally understanding the

1783
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:19,320
relationships between sizes of
numbers, knowing that 10 is 10

1784
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:21,360
times bigger than one and that's
what 10 times bigger looks like

1785
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:22,960
when you're at the counter
stage.

1786
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:25,840
It's them understanding that in
place value we exchange.

1787
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:29,120
So is it so with most year five
and six children, for example,

1788
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:31,400
you wouldn't necessarily feel
that you need to get the Deans

1789
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:32,440
out?
No, most of the time.

1790
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:35,160
Most of the time if I'm children
working out there, if I had a

1791
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:37,040
child working year one level in
year 6, I'd absolutely be

1792
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:38,680
getting them out, of course, but
most of the time, not at all.

1793
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:41,200
So a new concept, you know, a
new concept in year 6 might be

1794
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:42,600
multiplying fractions together.
Sure.

1795
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:46,120
And I think it is valid to start
in the pictorial of this and

1796
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:48,840
show them an array, right?
You know, with multiplication,

1797
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:52,240
like with area, we'd show them 7
* 4, We'd show them 7 rows of

1798
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:53,840
four, right?
I would get, I would get a

1799
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:55,920
rectangle out and I'd say, OK,
we're doing, we know how

1800
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:57,760
multiplication works.
We know it labels these two

1801
01:07:57,760 --> 01:07:58,920
sides and we know it's linked to
area.

1802
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:01,840
OK, we've got 3/4 * 1/2.
How are we going to do that?

1803
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:03,240
How we can label it?
OK, cool, let's cut it.

1804
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:05,560
Let's cut this one into 1/2.
So we've got two rows.

1805
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:07,400
Let's cut this one into columns,
sorry.

1806
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:09,240
And let's cut this one into 4
rows because we're showing

1807
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:11,280
quarters.
And then we can use shading to

1808
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:15,000
show 3/4 of 1/2 like let's just
take 1/2 and let's just do 3/4

1809
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:16,160
of like you can.
You can do because.

1810
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:18,240
There are people who think year
6 cool, you're in the abstract

1811
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:20,040
now because this journey, CPA is
just.

1812
01:08:20,399 --> 01:08:22,560
Free, not at all, right?
Even with my even with even with

1813
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:26,960
a top set mass in year 6, I will
still use the pictorial with new

1814
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:28,760
learning and you know what?
I might do it for 5 minutes

1815
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:30,399
because you know what?
Because that because that level

1816
01:08:30,399 --> 01:08:33,359
of that ability child very
quickly goes oh, it always

1817
01:08:33,359 --> 01:08:35,479
happens that you multiply the
numerators and the denominators

1818
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:37,160
because that's how you end up
shading that bit in.

1819
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:39,479
Can we just do that?
And I'm like, yeah, that's why

1820
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:40,880
it works.
You've got the concept now crack

1821
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:41,319
on.
You've got it.

1822
01:08:41,319 --> 01:08:43,399
So going back to what we said
earlier about solving mass

1823
01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:45,840
anxiety and anxiousness and this
whole generation of just like,

1824
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:47,359
why are you doing this?
There's new maths.

1825
01:08:47,359 --> 01:08:49,240
It's nonsense.
By the way, I'm still scared of

1826
01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:51,840
doing maths myself.
Listen, it's not their fault,

1827
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:53,800
OK?
I know I'm acting quite glib

1828
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:56,680
about it, but there is like
meaning behind this.

1829
01:08:56,680 --> 01:08:58,439
So when you're as a teacher
thinking why am I bothering?

1830
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:00,359
No, there honestly, there is
meaning behind this because when

1831
01:09:00,359 --> 01:09:02,479
the children make those
connections, when they see it in

1832
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:05,240
front of them, when you're
facilitating that for them, they

1833
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:07,840
will understand things more.
They will be less anxious when

1834
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:09,520
they're older.
They won't be as flippant about

1835
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:11,000
it because it's not something
they're worried about.

1836
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:12,640
Yeah, but Dylan, they're not
gonna get those Dean blocks in

1837
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:14,760
that test, though, are they?
OK, OK.

1838
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:16,720
All right, OK.
I see what you're doing here.

1839
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:19,920
Let's let's let's round this off
talk about assessment.

1840
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:22,760
We could be here all day talking
about, I'm hoping just a quick

1841
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:25,120
breather here that you're
getting the impression of how

1842
01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:26,880
passionate we are about maths
and things like that.

1843
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:29,960
We absolutely love it and
there's a reason why we're maths

1844
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:32,399
specialists and need maths.
So I hope you found this useful.

1845
01:09:32,399 --> 01:09:34,399
Let's finish off with assessment
because I think there's going to

1846
01:09:34,399 --> 01:09:35,920
be a dose of realism here as
well.

1847
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:41,000
Assessment is weird, OK, It's
weird.

1848
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:43,880
It's it's weird.
It is the end of my discussion.

1849
01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:47,399
Assessment is so odd.
Let's break it down into the two

1850
01:09:47,399 --> 01:09:50,319
types of assessment.
Formative assessment is what

1851
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:52,520
goes on every single minute of
the day.

1852
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:55,480
As a teacher, you're constantly
looking for feedback from the

1853
01:09:55,480 --> 01:09:58,160
children to see how they're
getting on the most, in my

1854
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:02,040
opinion, crucial form of
assessment that I think defines

1855
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:03,480
you as a good teacher or not
genuine.

1856
01:10:03,480 --> 01:10:05,160
I'd say it's that important.
That's what This is why

1857
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:07,440
assessment's weird.
I think that is the most

1858
01:10:07,440 --> 01:10:09,320
important thing.
Genuinely how you react to what?

1859
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:10,960
You're picking up when you're
teaching.

1860
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:13,440
What you're picking up, how you
adapt to them when we talked

1861
01:10:13,440 --> 01:10:15,360
about teacher standards and
adaptation, I think that is

1862
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:17,680
where you earn your salt as a
teacher when you can't just go

1863
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:19,240
off the slides and stuff.
You know, anyone can get a

1864
01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:21,280
scheme up.
It's when you're adapting stuff,

1865
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:23,240
OK.
And and that comes in with being

1866
01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:26,440
a good maths teacher in general,
by the way you adapt things for

1867
01:10:26,440 --> 01:10:28,840
your class.
You know, pitch and pace has to

1868
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:30,480
be different.
Your pitch might be higher

1869
01:10:30,480 --> 01:10:32,200
because you formatively have
assessed the children are

1870
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:34,200
better.
The pitch might you have to slow

1871
01:10:34,200 --> 01:10:35,920
down in the lesson because you
think, well, these kids don't

1872
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:37,600
get this.
The pace, OK, we're going to be

1873
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:38,840
quicker.
We're going to do this small

1874
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:41,520
step in half a lesson.
Oh gosh, I didn't get this.

1875
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:44,120
Let's do it again tomorrow.
So that that this is all comes

1876
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:46,480
on the formative assessment and
that's what good maths teaching

1877
01:10:46,480 --> 01:10:48,560
looks like.
You adapt the scheme that you've

1878
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:50,160
got in front of you.
You don't just take it as

1879
01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:52,360
gospel.
The progression brilliant, use

1880
01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:53,960
it.
But your pitch and your pace is

1881
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:56,040
what you're changing.
That's formative assessment to

1882
01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:57,680
me.
OK, we'll go into what's The

1883
01:10:57,680 --> 01:10:59,120
other one, then.
About that, maybe in a second.

1884
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:02,840
The other one is summative OK
and summative assessment is them

1885
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:09,800
sitting down for a formal test.
Honestly, I'm someone who said I

1886
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:12,120
think the SAT should be kept and
I like the idea of the SAT

1887
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:15,080
because it gives a benchmark.
I still agree with that opinion.

1888
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:16,680
I still haven't changed my mind
on that.

1889
01:11:17,480 --> 01:11:21,560
I think about a child's journey
through school year 12345 and

1890
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:23,680
six.
I think about them doing 3 tests

1891
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:25,920
a year at every single year
group just for the data for the

1892
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:28,840
school.
I think most of the time it's a

1893
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:30,200
waste of time.
Yeah, yeah, big time if you've

1894
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:31,600
actually add up that amount of
time, right.

1895
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:34,240
If you really think about it, I
always get so annoyed when we do

1896
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:36,520
an assessment week genuinely
because I'm like, oh, that's

1897
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:38,720
three more lessons of, of
teaching maths that I'm not

1898
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:40,280
going to give those kids so.
Context for you.

1899
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:41,640
You're six teachers, for
example.

1900
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:44,680
It's hot enough to the Sats.
The Sats are looming over

1901
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:46,080
schools.
You've got to get good scores.

1902
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:50,960
It's seen as very normal to do 3
or 4 past Sats papers in test

1903
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:52,640
conditions, very much like the
real thing.

1904
01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:54,920
Yeah, pretty much.
You think I think 1's good

1905
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:56,960
because I think familiarity is a
different subject, is a

1906
01:11:56,960 --> 01:11:58,160
different thing.
I think it's good to make the

1907
01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:00,240
kids familiar so they're again,
not as anxious about how the

1908
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:02,000
tests are going to be, what
they're going to feel like and

1909
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:03,880
look like.
But it's a waste of time to me

1910
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:05,760
because you know what, I never
really learned anything from

1911
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:07,000
them.
People say, oh, you can do a gap

1912
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:09,440
analysis.
Listen, half the gap analysis on

1913
01:12:09,440 --> 01:12:11,560
a summative assessment, unless
it's literally the end of the

1914
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:13,920
year, is stuff you haven't even
taught them anyway.

1915
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:15,360
They can't do that.
I know they can't do, I haven't

1916
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:16,840
taught them yet, don't need to
know that.

1917
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:18,960
And now they just feel rubbish.
They got tonnes of questions

1918
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:20,200
wrong.
How many times?

1919
01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:22,920
Let's talk about that for a
second, because when you do that

1920
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:25,200
first Test of the year, every
teacher will know this.

1921
01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:27,880
OK, Again, I'm using year 4
because I'm in year 4.

1922
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:30,800
We do a year 4 test after like 5
weeks, right?

1923
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:33,800
And it's just an end of year.
It's just a curriculum test.

1924
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:36,520
It's a year 4 curriculum test.
So there's fractions on there.

1925
01:12:36,680 --> 01:12:38,160
We're not touching fractions
until Easter.

1926
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:39,680
Yeah.
That's the nature of the block.

1927
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:40,480
Yeah.
OK.

1928
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:44,000
These tests, I feel like, were
made for the spiral curriculum.

1929
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:45,760
Yeah.
OK, let's have term one.

1930
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:47,320
Let's cover everything.
Let's see where they are.

1931
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:50,440
Wow, that gap analysis is
actually quite useful because

1932
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:53,720
all of my kids have got 95 plus
in the distance subtraction.

1933
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:56,680
So when I revisit that, I'll
maybe do one lesson instead of a

1934
01:12:56,680 --> 01:12:58,720
whole week.
And that means I can do more on

1935
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:01,680
the fractions, which they got
20% on, but I've still done

1936
01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:03,320
fractions.
So this is kind of useful

1937
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:05,480
information.
I don't feel like assessments

1938
01:13:05,480 --> 01:13:06,840
caught up with the block way of
teaching.

1939
01:13:06,840 --> 01:13:09,600
Okay, well, counter argument to
this straight away from a

1940
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:14,000
leader, head of school sort of
perspective is it allows them to

1941
01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:15,320
track progress though.
Because if you give them three

1942
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:17,040
end of year tests, it's one at
the start of the year, one in

1943
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:18,480
the middle, one at the end, you
can very easily.

1944
01:13:18,480 --> 01:13:20,400
If the tests are all the same
standard, you can track

1945
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:21,600
progress, right?
You can.

1946
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:24,320
OK.
All I'd say to that is why are

1947
01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:26,640
you doing that?
Like, honestly, what's the

1948
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:27,960
purpose?
It's not for the kids, is it?

1949
01:13:28,480 --> 01:13:30,760
Let's not ever pretend it's for
the kids because it's not.

1950
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:32,320
Is it for the teachers?
Do you know what my gap is,

1951
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:33,400
though?
Quickly for the kids?

1952
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:35,040
My gap is what I haven't taught
yet.

1953
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:37,480
So I'm not changing.
I'm not going to teach that in

1954
01:13:37,480 --> 01:13:39,760
in in March.
I'm teaching that, so I'm not

1955
01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:41,080
going to change that now, but.
Can you argue some?

1956
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:42,800
Some of the gaps will be things
you have taught though, right?

1957
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:44,000
Potentially.
But you know what?

1958
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:45,360
That's where formative
assessment comes in.

1959
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:49,640
Yeah, you know, honestly, right.
It says my kids can't do column

1960
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:51,800
method subtraction properly
because they've got gaps in

1961
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:53,800
their test.
If I didn't know that from

1962
01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:56,320
teaching it to them for three
weeks, then that's a problem.

1963
01:13:56,760 --> 01:13:59,560
If they can do it and they
didn't do it on the test, it's

1964
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:01,480
kind of good to know, but I know
they can do it.

1965
01:14:02,120 --> 01:14:05,960
So all we're actually seeing is
how the kids perform on a test.

1966
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:07,720
Yeah, that's all we're actually
testing here.

1967
01:14:08,040 --> 01:14:10,080
So let's get real then and stop
pretending it's something

1968
01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:12,800
different because it's for the
school to track data to be able

1969
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:15,640
to say, oh, my teachers are
teaching well because they're

1970
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:17,440
just delivering the curriculum
and they're getting higher

1971
01:14:17,440 --> 01:14:19,160
scores.
You could deliver the curriculum

1972
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:21,840
completely averagely and your
scores would go up just based on

1973
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:24,080
coverage.
There's notification of how good

1974
01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:25,640
you're doing.
There's a lot more nuance to it

1975
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:26,760
basically.
And I just think I'd rather

1976
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:28,160
teach the kids free more lessons
on maths.

1977
01:14:28,480 --> 01:14:30,240
So again, we're talking.
You can hear about what a good

1978
01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:33,520
maths lesson looks like.
It looks like constant quality

1979
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:35,480
formative assessment.
Do formative assessment all the

1980
01:14:35,480 --> 01:14:37,640
time.
Feedback from your children.

1981
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:39,800
Change your lesson on the spot
if you have to, if your children

1982
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:42,440
can't do something they need to
do to access the rest of them.

1983
01:14:42,440 --> 01:14:44,960
I just add as well, formative
assessment can include testing.

1984
01:14:45,280 --> 01:14:47,400
It can include testing.
We do something in our school,

1985
01:14:47,400 --> 01:14:49,320
it's cumulative testing.
It's not.

1986
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:51,880
So just take away this idea of
the summative idea of like, oh,

1987
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:53,520
let's test them on the whole of
the group, even though they

1988
01:14:53,520 --> 01:14:54,800
haven't taught the whole
curriculum yet.

1989
01:14:55,240 --> 01:14:56,960
You can do formative.
I do formative testing every

1990
01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:58,760
single week.
I'll spend 10 minutes doing an

1991
01:14:58,760 --> 01:15:02,200
arithmetic test purely based on
skills I've taught them, the

1992
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:04,280
arithmetic skills I've taught
them just to see if they're if

1993
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:05,080
they're retaining.
But.

1994
01:15:05,080 --> 01:15:07,640
To me that that is still
summative, but just done right.

1995
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:10,560
Like it's summative in that I'm
not forming this opinion as I

1996
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:12,440
go.
I've I've taught this and I'm

1997
01:15:12,440 --> 01:15:14,440
seeing if they can do it.
It's like good summative

1998
01:15:14,440 --> 01:15:15,800
assessment.
It's closer to formative.

1999
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:16,800
You're right, because you're
kind of teaching.

2000
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:18,320
As you go easy to manage.
You know what I do every single

2001
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:19,400
week?
Just again, because if you're

2002
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:21,240
listening this.
Is a policy, yeah.

2003
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:23,920
For ideas, what I do is I sit
there on a, on a, some point in

2004
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:26,720
the week and I'll write 10
arithmetic questions based on

2005
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:29,120
stuff we've even been learning
recently or based on stuff from

2006
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:31,600
weeks ago that where I'm like,
oh, they, they were showing at

2007
01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:33,480
that time they weren't very that
they needed more practise on

2008
01:15:33,480 --> 01:15:36,080
this.
And I will then deliver the

2009
01:15:36,080 --> 01:15:37,960
test.
I will literally just do it like

2010
01:15:37,960 --> 01:15:39,280
not even like a formal gap
analysis.

2011
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:41,920
I will just shot on a piece of
paper which questions are most

2012
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:43,840
incorrectly answered, Right.
And I'll just see if there's a

2013
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:45,160
bit of a pattern here.
And I'll be like, oh, wow,

2014
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:47,520
number six points out.
And we'll be doing, I don't

2015
01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:49,040
know, decimals multiplied by
whole numbers.

2016
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:50,760
OK, brilliant.
OK, I clearly didn't teach that

2017
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:52,520
very well.
Next week I will put that in my

2018
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:54,920
starter and then guess what?
I'll put it in that week's test

2019
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:56,120
as well.
And I'll just see if it improves

2020
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:58,040
and if it did, cool.
If I can take it off, then I'll

2021
01:15:58,040 --> 01:16:00,080
move on.
And I just every week, I'm just

2022
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:03,040
using a formative assessment
tool of arithmetic test very,

2023
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:05,560
very easily, quickly identify
gaps in things I've taught,

2024
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:09,000
being really important, they're
things I've taught, and then

2025
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:10,040
fill them if I need to.
Yeah.

2026
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:11,560
Easy.
This is how I would summarise

2027
01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:12,960
this whole point here with
assessment.

2028
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:16,800
OK, assessment is genuinely,
honestly only useful if you're

2029
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:18,360
testing children on things
they've done.

2030
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:19,960
OK.
Look at it like that.

2031
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:22,960
If you're testing children on
things they have not been taught

2032
01:16:22,960 --> 01:16:25,560
yet, you are completely wasting
everyone's time.

2033
01:16:25,920 --> 01:16:28,640
That is honestly true because in
that time that I did that test

2034
01:16:28,640 --> 01:16:30,480
when they were doing questions
they've never seen before.

2035
01:16:31,120 --> 01:16:31,720
Oh my God.
But they.

2036
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:32,720
Might already be able to do it
they.

2037
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:33,840
Might already be able to do it.
Cool.

2038
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:35,840
Do you know what in my lesson
planning?

2039
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:37,880
In that case, they'll move
through the fluency and

2040
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:40,120
reasoning.
They'll like be able does a test

2041
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:43,480
really test if they can explain
their answer, justify their

2042
01:16:43,480 --> 01:16:47,040
reasoning, prove something.
Do you know problem solve.

2043
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:49,920
That's a good point, no So if
they can already do it in a test

2044
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:52,080
situation, cool.
I've got 17 other things that I

2045
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:53,080
care about though from the
career.

2046
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:54,520
With that objective with.
That objective.

2047
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:55,960
So do you know what we're going
to get there?

2048
01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:57,840
I've got a problem solving thing
for them where they've got to

2049
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:01,680
try and, you know, try an
improvement or draw a picture or

2050
01:17:01,680 --> 01:17:04,280
act something out.
It doesn't matter if they can do

2051
01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:05,840
it in the test or not, that's
not changed.

2052
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:07,600
What's going to happen when it
comes?

2053
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:09,080
You can.
Still enrich their mathematical

2054
01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:10,120
understanding.
Going right back to the

2055
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:12,000
beginnings episode.
You can still enrich, you know,

2056
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:13,880
the curriculum aims.
Yeah, you can still.

2057
01:17:13,880 --> 01:17:15,200
Oh.
Let's look at those aims, shall

2058
01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:15,640
we?
Oh, yeah.

2059
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:16,800
OK, cool.
I've not done that.

2060
01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:19,080
Oh, but they answered the
question 44 in this test that we

2061
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:19,960
haven't taught yet.
Cool.

2062
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:21,880
Has that changed the aims, the
curriculum?

2063
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:22,560
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

2064
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:23,600
No.
And I'm guessed.

2065
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:26,120
Yeah, maybe.
Yeah, that's interesting.

2066
01:17:26,120 --> 01:17:28,320
So yeah, I think our our
opinions on that assessment

2067
01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:30,680
quite clear, formative, very
useful, essential to be in a

2068
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:34,240
good maths teacher.
Summative has some places, has

2069
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:36,240
some uses, but really low down
on the list.

2070
01:17:36,400 --> 01:17:38,480
Generally a bit of a waste of
their time and your time.

2071
01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:40,760
You could have just taught them
three good maths lessons in that

2072
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:42,280
time you did the tests to be
honest.

2073
01:17:42,440 --> 01:17:45,120
So brilliant.
Well, I honestly I think this

2074
01:17:45,120 --> 01:17:46,600
this episode could have been
twice as long.

2075
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:48,480
I know I could feel us trying
to.

2076
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:51,000
Be like I know let's go.
But guys I hope you find it

2077
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:52,760
useful.
You clicked on it for a bit of

2078
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:54,760
help with to do maths.
Hopefully you can see how

2079
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:56,840
passionate we are.
And yeah, I, we do to an extent,

2080
01:17:56,840 --> 01:17:58,080
I think kind of know what we're
talking about.

2081
01:17:58,080 --> 01:18:00,160
I hope.
Otherwise we're just wasting our

2082
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:00,880
problem.
Let's know.

2083
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:02,680
If you've got any questions as
well, you know, we'll, we'll

2084
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:04,040
always ask.
I'm told man, by the way, I'm in

2085
01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:05,520
Denham so.
Yeah, OK, Cheers.

2086
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:07,400
Thanks, Sir.
Opening that up, guys.

2087
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:09,240
Thank you so much for listening.
And if you've got this far,

2088
01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:11,560
please, all we ask really is
that you leave us a review,

2089
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:14,520
follow us on Instagram at TCV
Podcast and give us a message.

2090
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:17,080
We love talking to you guys.
Sweet, see you next.

2091
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:17,360
Time.