Ep 67: Can Flexible Working Save Education?

0:00 Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Teach Sleep. Repeat. My name is Dylan and my name is Hayden, and we are the Men in black. Are we really are the men in black? We did not. Is that brand new top? Brand new top. Yeah. So. When I walked in the black top this morning, did your heart sink a bit? I didn't notice because obviously I don't notice these things until we sit in front of a camera and go, oh look, we were in the same thing. A vast majority of people don't watch this podcast so that first. Made me customers. Was a complete waste of your time. How you doing? I'm alright. Remember we first, we first went on on video, right? And we kept making jokes about it and we were saying, oh, you're so weird for watching us. And now it's just normal. Yeah, it's quite normal to have stalkers, I think. Who wants everything? That's what you are, isn't it? Really. Who does watch on it? Give us a message because apparently it's a lot of you.

0:42 Apparently on the stats on Spotify. Apparently I didn't have anyone watching me on this week's podcast. Yeah. How's your week been? We've been back at school. Haven't. Back at school after a lovely trip to Centre Parks, we spoke about last. Week What was more tiring, the holiday or the work you work actually you. Being around you more often. Was very tired. Why was that? Business the holiday. I was so knackered that weekend. We got back. Couldn't believe it. But it was good. It was worth. It it's always good when you finish a holiday much more tired than when you went on it. I said to my mum and she was like, ohh, she's like, that is just what it's like for kids. She's like it's the sign of a good holiday. If you come back knackered it's because you were doing everything you could to try and make it nice for them.

1:22 And it's lovely because they'll never, ever remember it, and it might as well have not happened. For them, no. But we've got, we've got some pictures of it. We got a picture of them in the bath we can embarrass them with when they're older. It's fine. I've seen, I've had a quick look at the notes and I've just seen something that says Apple pie story. Apple pie store. That's vague enough for me to be, really. Interested. I'm looking forward to telling this story. So yesterday I went to one of us. So just for context, we have a choosing business and I went to one of our choosers houses who's going to be taking over a bit of. Workload and he's going to work to run the business with me. You no taking over. We we run mock tests through the year and it was just a little event and he's going to take over that role of like managing them, right. So I said, I'll come round, we'll run through all get you set up.

2:04 And because it was quite late, I said, jump me to bring some dinner. You know, we'll just get a takeaway or something. So we decided on on a McDonald's, a cheeky McDonald's, and that was great. At the time he was with another colleague who is both his friend and also a tutor for us who said, ohh, I want an apple pie. And I thought they were joking. I was on my way to McDonald's. I thought it was just me. She doesn't even live with him. I mean, I thought, no, that's not happening. And then they text me as I was at McDonald's. Are you actually getting the apple pie? And I thought, I thought it was a joke, but OK, I'll get the apple pie. That's fine. I'll drop it to her house. Whatever. There you go, Texas saying you're lucky. You know you better enjoy this apple pie. Was that the exact language you? Used Yeah, I I was really nice in my language. I didn't use any expletives when I spoke to. Her definitely not.

2:45 I said you better enjoy this apple pie. You're a lovely woman, is what I said to her. And then I was driving away from McDonald's and I just had a feeling, you know, my McDonald's senses. I. Don't wanna do anything for her. That's what you thought. I just I just feeling inside. Ohh it's still gonna hate you when I replace him. But she gave me the bag McDonald's, and I thought, I just feel like there's, it should have felt more heavy. How often do you go to my doubles that you can lift up the bag and go I'm missing or something? I knew one of my five items is missing. This is not. Waiting right? I wasn't I was bloody right. So I pulled I was driving at McDonald's and I thought no I'm going to stop and check cause be annoying if I go there and something missing something missing. The McDonald's Whisperer.

3:28 I looked in. I closed my eyes. Obviously I did it all from smell. Something's missing in here. I can't can't smell the. Apple I'm getting, I'm getting cheeky. Muggy I'm getting double cheeseburger. No backing. Did and actually what I realised was I had the complete wrong order. I didn't even have our order at all. I was like, we didn't order any of this stuff. So I was like oh bloody hell. Took it back into McDonald's at that point. I picked up the drinks that she gave me first and realised they weren't even the drinks I ordered. Probably should have noticed at that point when she gave me two drinks that weren't the drinks. Anyway, went in and I said oh sorry, but this is not my order. I've got someone else's order and was a lady said next to me and she was like, oh, is that the old chicken selects meal and two Cokes? Yeah, this is yours. He's like, yeah, I drove past the window, didn't realise where to stop and then you, you were the car behind.

4:13 Me. Sorry. Let's go through her thought process. I know. Go through the drive through. I'll order my food, I'll pay for my food, and then I'll go home. And go to the next window please. OK, what countries left McDonald's? So she thought she held her back. Didn't exist. It was a bit light. I know I did think what? What do you mean you missed? You missed the window where you get your food and you don't know. How many Tesco put your whole chart for it and just going good day, yeah, you've paid backing out. So I thought, OK, well it wasn't McDonald's fault really, that she just, she just did it wrong. So I stood there waiting and explained the situation, very apologetic. And then they found my meal because the next person obviously was like, this isn't my meal out the window. A sensible person that actually realises when the drinks are wrong and I say put it to the side, found one. I said, really, where you have your meal, all good. I was like, no, no worries, no worries, all fine. And I thought, I'm not going to check it again. No, not check.

5:03 They obviously checked it now because I've told them to go. I've told them exactly what my order was, of course. And so I, I drive to, I'm going to name a Tasha's house. She listens and she listens fine. Drives Tasha's house and she was, you know, extremely excited about this apple pie for. She came bounding over. Came bounding out of her door like ohh my apple pie, something like that. Sound music. She can confirm that's it. That's how she came out the door. I can actually really imagine her doing. Back to that specifically, Tash. Yeah. Very, very her, isn't it? Flamboyant of an Extremely flamboyant. Yeah. Running out of her door, big smile on her face like she was. I didn't actually expect you to do this. This is the biggest treat. You're probably the nicest person I know. You're my favourite human being. Didn't say that. No, No. But she came to the window. Her eyes said it. Yeah, her eye said it exactly.

5:43 A body language eyes, You know, the fact she had no shoes on. She was so excited. And I said right, go on then. It's in one of these two bags. Sorry. You you noticed that she had no shoes on and you noticed about the McDonald's you're some kind of like. You got Spidey senses? I've got like eyes or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I said in one of these bags, open them up. So I opened one bag, shoved one bag. She's excited looking through all right, Like that one's looking through my bag. I was like, ohh, it's not in here either. And the apple pie wasn't there. And she was gutted, but but held it and has, is now holding it personally against me to make that clear. She was like, you owe me. You owe me an apple pie. I. Think each day that goes past apple pie increases by 1 couple months now, Yeah. So I don't know how to feel about that. Is that my fault?

6:28 I would say absolutely, because it's you. If it was anyone else, obviously, because it is you who's gone through this whole thing, through the whole ordeal of holding a bag from McDonald's and go, no, no, no, that is not my order. But then for some reason I don't check it again. I know. It was wrong with me. I just checked. I thought, no, they can't get it wrong. The main thing that's come out of this story for me is I really want to line up five bags of McDonald's food, right? Completely random. Get to hold them and tell me what's in them. And see successful all three, actually a medium prize and two large fries in that one. Yeah, yeah, I know. OK, we've done this before, but I'm gonna ask you right now because it is vital information. OK, What's your go to order? McDonald's. You're hungry driving home from work. You know that. Even it's late. Go through McDonald's, right? Gonna fill my boots here.

7:10 What do you? Get so I can't remember to be adventurous. Big Mac meal, no cheese, obviously. I wish I didn't ask, honest. Cheese. Yeah. Cheese. Big white meal, No cheese Drink Oasis. Anything else? And hamburger. Yeah, I knew it was coming. Getting that like 3 bites. Yeah, exactly. But I was looking at McDonald's menu yesterday and they had this like triple thing that just three for 3 lbs Yeah, no, it was like a burger with three burgers in it. But the hat trick burger, Patrick burger, yeah, I looked at it. I was like ohh, that could be quite nice. And then I realised that cheese was the main element and I took out the cheese. It would literally just be. Three burgers on top, three slabs of mince in a bread bun, 3 slabs. Slabs of rancid mince. You know, I thought probably not the best idea for anyway. It doesn't know.

7:54 Completely insane. Hayden doesn't like cheese. No, he's not tolerant. He's not vegan. I am. He's not, he's not. And he he just doesn't actually like geez, I think it's disgusting. I still can't get my. Head. It's disgusting. Is is the most disgusting food on this planet. It's absolutely revolting. Rancid. Interesting, that'll be the pollen on this if you're on Spotify right now. There is a whole cult of us like we all know each other. Preview when I walk around. You. Rishi and ohh, I don't know. The third one. Oh, no, I'm just testing. I'm testing you. Yeah. We walk on the street. I'm like, right, we not. We know. Obviously. We know each. Other Is it because I don't even know? This is the lack of calcium from the milk we don't drink. Another horribly pale person.

8:38 Ohh, Jason. Jason. I mean, I'm, I'm really pale, so I like to. Have my photo taken, dear. Cheese. Ohh always freaks me out. Like when they're seeing those black and white you're flashbacks in your head. Cheese you back to your childhood of being forced and just eat it. Eat your dinner, Hayden. Eat I do have one of them. Well, I memory of like where I think of well, actually, because I was forced to eat lasagna at school. Genuinely, really, genuinely forced to eat lasagna. I was in maybe a three and I had a school. I don't normally have school dinners, but for some reason I had school dinners that day and it was lasagna and it was cheesy lasagna. Oh my God, and they would not have didn't want to eat it. And it wasn't even being I wasn't trying to be horrible. I literally just said something I really, really, really don't like. I just don't meet this and they're like, we're not going to write to eat it.

9:22 And I sat there the whole whole hour. They wouldn't leave. They would not let me go until they lasagna. I probably had like one mouthful of it in the end around for dinner time. No, because I know what you do. You'll throw cheese at me. Yeah, yeah. What do you think about that in general in school? Because we. Ohh. Wait, let me just check. Ohh Yeah, This is the teacher podcast. Let's talk. Ohh. Yeah. So do what do you think about kids who just refused to eat at lunchtime? Where's the line? Because they eat something. Weird, isn't it? Probably, Probably more labelled liberal than ever because experience. I'd be like any kid that says now, but OK, bye. Because I'm like, I don't want to repeat. To Stevens my. Go. Just go. No, no, my son. Sorry. It's the end of day. I want to catch you quickly. My son he's not been eating his lunches for. Weeks I know ohh, you know about this already. I do.

10:08 I know very well. OK, so you've been trying I've been encouraging him to to eat all of his dinner. I've been encouraging him to leave his dinner if he doesn't like No, no, but he no Mr Stevens, listen, he comes home starving everyday Yes, and I know he does actually like it. He does because he's at home. So can you just please make sure he eats it? I won't I won't do it. What What? That's part of your job, Mr. It's not part of my job. We've had a whole discussion about this on our podcast. You should. But basically with me while I was on Instagram. Yeah, I don't know, I I would hate to punish children for not liking food. Yeah, I find that insane. But sometimes. But like you said, sometimes we've all been there as a kid where you're just being stubborn and actually you wanted something else. You didn't get it. So now I'm not eating. This. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there is a line where it's like, OK, yeah. It's like everything we talk about on this podcast and a line somewhere we decided the problem is probably funding some sort of somehow funding's fault. It's the Tories.

10:54 I think it's the Tories and that's why you listen to the podcast guys, for that incredible insight into all the problems that we have in teaching. So apple pie. Great. Good stuff. How are you? I'm. Fine, I'm absolutely fine. I've been thinking about the fact that your notes are when this is about us. Well then your notes are terrible. That's not fun. Mine says apple pie story. Where's Where's the? Fun in that? Ohh. Let me explain why this Sunday, which is after we record this, carry on this, after we record this podcast, but before it's been released. So it's happened already. So I had a great Father's Day. Did you? Ohh yes and also yesterday had a great father's. Day. I think yesterday was fantastic and I would think that all of the surprises were very surprising. To me, all of the fathers were laughing like this. What a great day.

11:41 But the only thing is to have a Father's Day is we've got a BBQ at my parents house, we're gonna go to everyone that's on the afternoon. But then Lauren said to me yesterday, what are you doing in the morning on a on Father's Day? And I was like, ohh, nothing actually I'm not doing anything, I'm free. She went ohh, OK, alright then. So I spent the rest of the day thinking, ohh, I gotta say, yeah, it's like, ohh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna cry. But that sounds quite nice. And then then later on we were organised in an interview we have with like something to our business and we and the person could do Sunday morning. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't think I can do Sunday morning because I've been asked about it. I've got to keep that clear. I'll just check when because we can work around it. So by the way, Lauren, what what is going on Sunday morning? Nothing I said but you no sorry.

12:30 Ohh, earlier you asked me what? I'm doing. You're crying at this point, it was just a long don't worry about. That I said, ohh, earlier you you just asked me what's going on Sunday morning. So I just thought, are we? And she was like, oh, no wonder what you're doing. Yeah. So so I said to you nothing. And you went, that's OK. Yeah, I could do the interview. So Sunday morning, having a nice little chat with someone. Yeah, one of our people like an interview really. Is it just talk about something? But yeah, that, that that was, that was fun. I honestly thought, like, that's lovely, isn't it? Yeah, lovely. That's something in the morning for my first Father's Day. Yeah, I'll be doing nothing. Did you do anything on Mother's Day though's first mother's? Day I don't remember. So that's a no.

13:14 I think we did. I think I got, I think I got paid Rory's feet and put his feet somewhere. Yeah, on a card or something. Fair enough. The Wall. Yeah, Chuck some painters. Yeah. Yeah. It's nice, isn't it? It's nice. That's my notes, farmers name. It's not I've got another. I've got another thing that actually just thought without looking at. Ohh please tell me about how insane the amount of work you know. I don't know, I just read your mind. It's like a McDonald's. Well, last week before we started back at work, I was talking. You picked me up and went, that's all he's got to talk about. It feels better. There's no buying there, son. Inside and the only thing I was going to say was last week we said, isn't time 6 lovely?

13:56 Isn't time 6 great? The weather is so good, My favourite times. Then I had a week back and I remembered how insane it is. Like I just thought straight away I was like, oh, there's four things that I need to do in the next two weeks and that all massive jobs and I've got to continue actually doing my full teaching schedule, which is in itself a full time job. And I've got some planet and I've got some market. But by the way, you still got staff meetings. And also, can you please write and all your reports? And not only write all your reports, can you then proofread all the reports from someone else please? The same amount of time. By the way, there's a Twilight as well. We've got some training. Really nice. Ohh. It's weird that you only found about found out about writing reports last week. Well, Hayden, how do you expect me to proofread reports before, before, before the deadline when people aren't finished? I said writing, not proofreading. Well, writing. My own fault. I'll be doing that. This weekend.

14:38 Ohh, quite hilarious. Golden week one, I've got to write my report. For writing this is where my mind place was when I was doing my reports right clearly, because I was still so in year three, right in in year three, we did Sikhism and I remember I absolutely loved that whole unit. I remember thinking to myself, I'm not very religious person. I remember thinking after this season, this religion, I can I can I really like the whole idea of service and the community and helping people like that. So whenever we've been Davari now, because obviously in the chat. So we do a lot of Christianity, everything of RI think of Christianity, then we do it. Sexism. That's lovely. Yeah. So in year four now, I mean, year four, we do Hinduism, which is another big religion.

15:19 And I remember teaching about Hinduism and the beliefs of karma and reincarnation. Yeah. Well, karma reincarnation, although my dears and I was like, this is cool. Isn't all really good? Ari is really cool. We get to know all these cultures. You have nothing to know about others. And we talked about how Rishi Sunak's Hindu. Is he? Yeah, he's Hindu, the first practising Hindu to become Prime Minister and all this really cool chat about Hinduism. So I was writing my reports away. I've done all my reports, I've done all my mass reports, I've just got a few bits and bobs to do now to finish off because I share them with Amy, obviously my job share and she just messaged me yesterday going. Have you done your reports? And I was like, yeah, she's like, Oh yeah, I thought you'd, because, you know, we did, we know we did Hinduism this year, not Sikhism. I'd written Sikhism and then every single report and I said, I he really, he really does grass the understanding of the Sikh religion and the culture and the ideas of reincarnation and the ideas of karma.

16:10 So I got all these, I got all the individual parts of Hinduism correct. I just called it. Egoism. OK, because. Of that, yeah. Yeah. So I just literally labelled the seekers because I was like seekers him. What a lovely. Religion. Much further idea of you making up 32 statements for all your kids about how much they love, completely exposing that none of it's real. Because they didn't do it. The 5K's, they know all about the 5K and how they wear the silver bracelets and all that. Yeah, all that. Gonna carry a sword. And I don't think that's it. That's how Linda was actually. So I got it right. But I'd literally I'd written season every single one because I'll go and change. That right now so would you know my. Speakers. And it says here that you understand the culture of it. So what can you tell me about it? Yeah. So yeah, that was my story about reports.

16:52 Love that, very good, very you. Have you got anything else? For you, so I was just gonna reflect on it's a less funny thing a few a funny thing. I can't say the word last. Think you're fine? My mind think you'll find the word is. Lesser, lesser, lesser few funny but want to our business for a minute because we don't talk. Cry these guys. We look forward to that. We. Don't talk about it much. It's a big part of our. Life, we're talking about flexible working and stuff and job sharing all that. So it's kind of linked. They're related. What do you wanna talk about? Stick around and for after this boring bit when we can talk about flexible work. You don't do the notes as if I didn't just tell you so we can talk about I mean was that they just check the notes over here. I think we're. Flexible, working flexible.

17:35 Working. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But basically want to reflect on it for a minute. It's a scary, scary time for us to see how you feel because I feel like, you know, you find these things a little bit more like it gets you, gets you feeling some type of way when when we do. This really good. Description of the word 10 seconds spray bottle. If you don't get that, listen to episode 60. Ohh every something in the. 60s or why not just all of the previous? All of the previous episodes, yeah. Anyway, so we're at the point now where we've we've grown a little, we've gone part time because of our little side business that was just genuinely a side hustle for many years, which was a bit of tutoring. And we've slowly grown it. And we've always had the mindset of totally risk free, really, really slow building.

18:20 We'll do everything ourselves, even if it takes 10 times longer because we don't want to maybe spend loads of money. We spend risk. It, we spent like £200 when we started on that resourcing, yeah. And then we've not put a single penny of our own money into this business since then. We actually, we have, we actually have enough. No, we've only, we've, so only time we've needed something, even if we think it's a good idea, like getting a new website was a big thing for us, rather than what a lot of businesses would do, which is they'd, they'd get that investment, they'd ever take out a loan or something because they know it's going to pay dividends in the future. We were like, Nah, we'll always just save up first. So if it takes us a year longer to get there, we'll do that. We've always done that. But recently we wanted to start a bunch of a couple of new services and we've taken a new leap. I think it's, I think if we should like talk about it, but what we aren't we, but it's been 3 minutes so, so basically we have built a bit of a team of resource creators to help us jumpstart these new services, which would normally take about two years to. Create, well, because we just sit and creating ourselves. So we've created every resource so far, just ourselves. I think apart from a couple of things, I've outsourced people. But mostly me and.

19:22 You but yeah, now it's. Exciting, kind of scary because spending loads of money investing on in these people and the services don't exist yet. But I would, I would say it's still the business money. And it's because the business has grown. The business has grown. It's allowed to invest as much money. But you know, yeah, anyone else has a business out there? It is, it is like it is just a leap, isn't it? Because at the end of the day, that is our money because we've earned it. Yeah. And it's our, you know, our profits and our company and stuff. So either we're going to invest it or we're going to take the money. And I think we've had the mindset before of take the money, live a comfortable lifestyle, reinvest when you can save. And I think at this point we're just like, let's just do. I don't I wonder if there's like a bit of boredom comes into it of, you know, we, you know, our service, we, we teach here. Of children and can't we do a little bit of your stuff? We're now completely overhauling year four to be a complete service.

20:09 We're going to introduce year six is going to be the whole idea of through through primary school. Yeah, eventually thinking about doing GCSEs and stuff like that and working in secondary school, but it's just a hint of boredom. I don't know about you. Like we've gone part time. We've done that for a couple of years now. I feel like I'm at the at the cycle point of I need something else like and even if this doesn't work then OK, well we'll just carry on as we were then. Like we'll build the money back up anyway because of where we are. Yeah, I agree. I think it is important. I mean, we like that we are a year goes past. If we don't do something new, we tend to get a bit itchy, itchy, itchy feet. Itchy Feet is definitely the saying. And yeah, the only bad, bad news for our listeners is we haven't got for the podcast yet. We keep putting a new episode every week.

20:50 I'll listen to #1 now what we like. Ohh, God is annoying, isn't it? So yeah. Are you happy you had your bit about business? Yeah, I just want to reflect on it and I was gonna see how you felt about it, but I suppose it kind of links into the next chat. Anyway, we're gonna talk about going part time. Are we? So we're gonna play the Jingle now. We're gonna talk about going part time and flexible working and teaching and stuff. But I do have a nice little hypothetical question for you to answer after this single. OK, that sounds good. Hey, then it's time to answer my hypothetical question. You ready? That sounds great. That's the Django OK, ready.

21:35 Ohh. I need you to take you seriously. I thought this online. You crack me up and I really had to think about it. OK, I'm ready. Because this, by the way, you have to take this seriously because this is an incredibly serious question. OK? You're listening at home. I want to know what you think. Let us know. Question. Would you rather stay exactly as you are or I thought you got now? Yeah, exactly as you are. Or, umm, take six attempts at bowling a strike for £100 million and if you don't bowl a strike you turn into a dog. Oh my God, what? Sorry, would you rather say exactly as you are or take six attempts at bowling, strike and if you don't bother strike you turn into a dog?

22:28 That is unbelievably complex for some reason. Up until you said the. Word dog. I was absolutely adamant that I was going to take that one. That race. I was like, there's nothing he could do. You take away my whole life savings, whatever. I take the risk for 100 million, turn into a dog. I'm not so sure. I'm not talking like I'm talking about when, when when we say dog, you can't talk. You're not talking dog. You are just a dog. You are you though. Yeah, you are. You and people around you would be like, ohh, missed that Hayden at least at least he's ohh. Look at him. I bet he's a he's sad. Secondly, could I miss on purpose? We're gonna be talking. I don't really wanna. Do I have to take the 100 mill? I think they're.

23:11 Serious Ebola striker in your gut. It's six. You've got to strike it. God's sake. God's sake. Give me 100 Mel. Oh my God, I don't if if this was dead serious. You mean it because because it's. Hey, I'm asking you right now. I've got it set up. I've got the bar now set up in the other room. I've got the dog's body. Imagine what the dog's body out there ready for your soul to. Is it currently alive? Yeah, he's going to swap. Will become the David David. Do you see more stock? I think, but how much was it? 100 million hundred hundred mil. 100 mil, one strike out. I'm pretty.

23:52 Bloody good at bowling, I'll tell you that. Have your bowling with the pause of a dog. I'm joking there. I think I would do it. No, wait. No. No barriers. No barriers. No, no. Barriers want to look at me. I look like someone needs barriers. But on your turn into a dog and you're OK with that? I won't turn into dog, I'll get this. Right, you really have picked like the wrong sport here. Are you a secret bowling? Fanatic any sport baby backs. Throwing. Just don't do something with my feet. Just do anything we have to bend, please, because I won't be going back up. Ohh, I don't know. I think I would. I think I'd do it. No way. So you've got a child and you go sorry darling, I'm gonna try and strike 100 mill if. Not bark.

24:37 Bark, no. If not, If not, you're doing the challenge as well. You'll be a dog with me. No, no, no, it's just you. But if not, you do get a nice family pet. Would you not take it? No, absolutely not. No, you're making me doubt myself. I'm doing that. I'm doing it, baby. Live life on the edge. Of the life of a dog is alright in it. Yeah, Short, short. Though which dog you are. That's, that's part of the question, I suppose, is what kind of dog would you be and not a street dog. As in, like what breed you choose? To breed at least, OK, you'd be a golden retriever in a loving family. But you, you can't talk. You can't talk, though. And and there's one person in the family who does Tuggy cholera bit too much when I was looking. OK. Like a bit like that's why can I bite them? No, no, no. Yeah, I'm doing it, I'm doing it. I'll get a strike and I'll take the 100 mil walk away by ten 10,000 golden retrievers.

25:25 And implant myself into all of them like a horcrux. All of them. I mean, someone tries to, someone tries to destroy me, they have to destroy themselves at the same time. That's how it works. Followed Waldemar through. Yeah, OK, Baltimore as the kids call me. Thanks to you. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, that's been a while since you mentioned that. Yeah. But it wasn't mentioned it. I hear it every day though, so thanks for that. Right, guys, let us know what your answer that hypothetical is. And here's a quick another Jingle. No, no, no, no, no. I'm not finished the question. I've got one more typical. Back to you. OK. How many bowls? 2 how many, how many bowling attempts would you have to be given until you take this deal? Like would you do it for if you had 10 attempts, would you would you take it?

26:06 When is it no longer? A risk to you? OK, let's work backwards. If I had 100 attempts, I'd do it. Yeah, OK, There's no way you're getting. Straight on 100 hundred if I went bowling if I-10 games of bowling, I'd get straight yeah Now I I actually think in a single game of bowling I'd get straight yeah but would I risk it becoming. A dog no. So that's like 20/20/20 ish isn't it? Because you know, we do 2 per two guys for a strike. Hayden strikes first goal or nothing. Yeah, you're gonna get 10 attempts to strike, but if you haven't been getting a strike, you've got up to like 20 goes until you've got until you run out of goes to get a striker, no. You can't if you have a. If you bowl and don't get a strike, your next one can't be a strike. You only get 10 attempts at strike. Ohh yeah, you idiot. Ohh.

26:48 In that case I won't be taking it. What if the first one hits nothing? Does it count as night despair? I'm so good at bowling, by the way. How are the rules working? Please? Why? It's not technically, it's right. We are gonna pay the go now. We're gonna get into. The actual hang on before the jungle. Let's play the Jingle. A couple of years ago we went part time, and part time in a school is one of two things usually. So obviously part time means less time in school. Either part time or full. Time. Yeah, well, part time Hayden means one of two things, either as a teacher, maybe in in secondary school is different obviously because it's different periods you have already scattered timetable. But in primary school it tends to be either you are a maths and English set teacher and you go in every morning five days a week and you do English and maths every day.

27:31 Or you share an entire class with another person and one of you does three or four phase one of you does one or two days or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We took the job share option of we do three days a week. The good one. The yeah, the lovely one and our job share partners do two days a week and between us we're just treated as one person in the school. Yeah. Now this whole episode is going to be talking about flexible working, flexible working and also job shares because that's where we have kind of our speciality, I suppose. So before we go into the Inns and outs of how flexible working can actually work in a school and the limitations are much different to other jobs and the impact it might have on recruitment and retention and things like that, I wanted just to reflect on our actual real life experience of flexible working.

28:15 So we put in, we put in a flexible working request. We ended up getting our three days a week. What did it do to you, Hayden? That affected your enjoyment of the job and your ability to, I guess, stay in the job. What would have happened if you were denied this request? I would have quit for a. Start. Would you have, I'll be honest with that. Absolutely. I probably would have probably have that one more year again because we're quite risk free. Normally. I would have been a bit like I would have put myself out of it. We were ready to quit though. Yeah, we did. Kind of actually we did. We did say to ourselves, didn't we, if this was going to be denied, we were quick because we were burning out. And, and that's what it did to me, I suppose. It stopped me burning out. And I don't want to pretend like I was burning out just because of the job.

28:55 It's because we were trying to run a business on top of a full time teaching job, which we all know is kind. Of which already people burnout. From exactly and we're lucky at our school where is a good school and actually at other schools. I probably would have been long burned out by that point. Our school's pretty good anyway, but we were still burning out. So going part time for me, I guess saved my career a little bit in terms of it kept me as a teacher for however long. You know, I don't think I'll always be teaching. I do think there's gonna be a point where we take the business full time probably in the future, but it certainly kept us in a bit longer because it allowed us to take that middle step of pure safety for us where it was like, well, we know we're going to make we're going to make up the money from the business that we run, but we probably don't earn enough in the business yet to go fully like the full risk mode of quitting.

29:39 So it was a nice safety net. I don't would would you have because obviously we thought the three days a week option was superior because we needed those days at home. Would you have taken the five days a week doing mornings only but finishing at lunchtime option if that was the only other option? Or would you have quit? If it was the only option I would have taken it. However, I did not quit. Yeah, I think so. I think so. I do think however, that doing full days is superior to doing every morning. I think we talked about this a long time on the podcast, but I do think but mornings works for some people, for example, parents of slightly older children who maybe are in nursery all morning. It's perfect.

30:19 It's perfect, isn't it all? Or childcare is easier for them to sort. Out you can be done before the end of the school day basically. You can see them and just do half day, whatever it takes in terms of that respect. It does work for some people and also it does kind of mitigate a lot of the stigma around job share, which is that you're teaching maths Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and that progression clearly carries on for the children. But you change teacher and that that can be a problem and and that mitigates that completely because it's set teacher. You just teach them all the. Time And I suppose there's, you know, another huge perk of being a set teacher is that if you don't, if you're not tied down to a class, any teacher listening right now, I know there's a lot of responsibility and extra work that comes with having your own class. Right. Yeah. And on top of just planning for the afternoon. Yeah. Yeah.

31:00 So it's not just it's not just planning and teaching the afternoon, is it? There is a lot of other stuff you know. Parents evening for a start. Healthcare plans, you've got to. Write yeah, you know, all of those those jobs are kind of let teachers do their parenting. That's true. They do, they do, but they might not do it. Some schools they might not have, you know it's not going to be their. Class, but like it tends to be an afternoon enrichment, afternoon trips, things like that. There's this pros and cons because I've got I've no set, which is in our school, we have set teachers to every morning. Yeah. We also have job share people who dates so that there are pros and cons to both and I do get that and I don't, I wouldn't be reticent to say that, you know, set, set teachers do less. I don't think that's true necessarily. No, sure. Because I think the planning Mass in English is much more of a job than planning the afternoon.

31:40 So they're they're planning more. Yeah, I was trying to highlight really got a question for you then. So thinking about just very much about you, you've been part time for two. Years 2 1/2 years. 2 1/2. I. Ohh, no, no, no. You started halfway through. You started in the September. So you've done I've. Been. Has it been? Has it been to and? This is my third year, yeah. Crikey, yeah. So you've done 2 1/2 years, taught me through how you felt at the start and how you feel now about it that might know that's gonna be different or not and kind of what happened if it is different about like the day one of going part time, how did you feel? Unbelievable. Yeah. And it was, it was crazy because again, do you know, we we always talk about how if you get out the classroom every year that goes by, you kind of become more removed from what it's like being in the classroom. Yeah, I absolutely think that this is happening to me with being a full time teacher.

32:32 So I talk about burnout. I talk about things like that. I am every year that goes past, I'm another year away from actually experiencing what it's like to work all week in a school because it is insane in terms of in terms of mental load. So for me going to do a job, share, it honestly transformed my looking back, my mental health because it happened after COVID and there was a lot of stuff going on in COVID. I think that I kind of just suppressed the little bit like the whole idea, like the world felt like it was falling apart, was affecting everyone, obviously. And we talk about how, ohh, we got some time at home, wasn't that nice, and we had our own house and we had a garden. So I know we were very lucky in terms of some people stuck in a flat and it was incredibly tricky mental health wise. Yeah.

33:13 So we had them benefits, but I definitely suppressed a lot of it. And a lot of my stuff came out in health anxiety around that time. I was really worried, I'm really worried about my health. Like the doctors. Yeah. It was like going to the doctors and getting stuff checked. It wasn't even to do with COVID. It was like other stuff. And I'm like, ohh, I've, I've got to have a lump in here and can you check that? And then I'd get the doctor to check it like 6 times even though I already checked, it's already been scanned. It's like it's fine. And we're years later now. And I definitely think that was linked to COVID and I definitely think it was actually linked to, you know, incredible stressing the job as well. And when we, when I went part time job share, it genuinely transformed my outlook and my day-to-day stuff. It didn't just change my work, it changed how I was at the weekend because I had more time. It impacted everything to do in my life. I was just happier.

33:57 Yeah, straight away. And I would say that, you know, kind of LinkedIn with that is the fact you didn't go part time as quickly as I did. Yeah. So obviously we were both hoping to go part time. We could both spend time in the business. So we kind of stalled going full send on the business until we were both off. I was two times behind Dylan, for context. He went in September and I went in January. Yeah, he had two terms without me. Yeah. It was just because of like situations of job sharing and stuff like that the people are doing. Was always ready to go in September. So those, those from September to December, I think that was 2021. Hmm. That was probably my favourite 3 months ever of, of like Jane of like life. Because you know, anyone who knows I'd won millionaire, I'd one who wants to be millionaire.

34:38 So I had, I had that financial stability which was huge and a massive thing that we're kind of not even brought up yet is that, you know, flexible working doesn't mean you are less had that financial stability. I want to play golf on my Thursdays, knowing I was playing golf when I would have been really stressed, trying to make sure, you know, everything's done and I'll have a break time and I can just get my lunch prep because I've got to go and do one afternoon. I said I just went and played golf. Yeah, with my mate who was off and I just chilled out. And that reset helped me massively every time we needed it. Yeah, because we'd spent, we'd spent the three years before that not just working part time. Sorry, not just working full. Time. So I'm not exaggerating, I'm exaggerate a lot, so I'm trying not to exaggerate here. I'd say we spent the three years before that working seven days a week for like for at least 90% of the weeks a. Year.

35:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Genuinely like because we did our full time job obviously and then we run the business on the weekends and evenings. We treat half terms like finally, time for business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was crazy. And we were just burning out because we know it's just mad. I agree. By the way, the same sort of experience at the start, it was just like pure euphoria where I was like, I can't believe I'm not at school. It felt naughty. Didn't. Yeah, we felt like we couldn't go out. People might see us, like my question went to school. Yeah. But you know, we, we started things like Wednesday night beer, you know, Wednesday. After school. Became our Friday yeah, so we have that went. Didn't It didn't last long. But being but how do you? Do you feel the same now or has it changed?

36:06 Yeah, it's changed massively. It's, it becomes the new normal, doesn't it? And this, this is the worry about it. I, I still think it's, I, I'm a much better level than I ever was, right. So we peaked at like the four over and we did it. It's never gone back to what it was beforehand, I think. And if you're at home thinking, God, I am so burnt out. And if you look at just do the maths and see what your impact on actually have on your salary, because dropping dropping two days is 40% of the time you're in school. It doesn't translate to a 40% drop in what you earn just because of the. Tax was around 25%. Yeah, take home pay. Yeah, so just just, I know money is really tight at the minute, but just look at what you'd actually lose and see if there's ways that you can kind of make that money up. A lot of people could make that money up or at least a chunk of it through just doing a couple of hours of private tutoring, find one or two clients like you, you could make up a nice chunk of that money.

36:54 So that's what I'd say to anyone listening now going, well, of course these guys could do it. Then the business, I think it's, I think it's very viable for a lot of people and the mental health impact is insane and it raise up your mind if you're thinking now I can't tutor because I'm working full time and I'm getting so stressed out. That would transform with those days off. And you can use those days off at your leisure just to spend some hours, you know, finding it. So yeah, I mean, it's different now because I look at the three days and, and I honestly think I could, I could, I'd be happy with two days now. Yeah. Because yeah, the business is growing. We've got other stuff you want in the business, but also just like, you know, I, I'd look at it and, and again the drop every time you drop because you've got a tax free allowance of about 12 1/2 grand. So you can earn that much before you're taxed. So every day you drop off, you're losing taxed income.

37:37 That's why it's not and not the untaxed income. So again, if you dropped one more day, that's a 1/3. Drop in how much you're in school, you'll pay. Would not go down by a third. You pay might go down by 20% again, about 1/4 again I think. I think 3rd to 1/4 is actually a really good ratio in terms of dropping down and compared to your actual take home pay drop is about 1/4, not 1/3. So something to consider, but what I would say is it really, really worked for me and I'll come back to you in a second. I and I know it worked for you though. And I would say that if flexible working wasn't something that we could do as teachers, we'd be another one of the statistics. And at the end of the day, recruitment and retention is an insane problem. This kept us in the profession that we literally love. So, you know, we moan a lot about it because we love it and we want to teach forever.

38:23 And I want it to be a really enticing profession. And there's only one reason I'm still doing it. And by the way, the thing that's only thing that's drawn me out of the teaching world as a teacher is our education business. We are passionate about education. So I, I don't know if it's something that can actually help fix this retention problem without doing too much extra funding, which just isn't going to happen, then I think it's necessary and it's a good thing. What about you? What you thought? I don't have too much more to add really because I think we had a similar experience. I just want to really make it clear that once that honeymoon period was over of us going part time, I did very much return to a similar state as before, like you said, a new normal. The difference being I wasn't as physically and mentally drained anymore.

39:06 That's that's the difference. But in terms of my happiness, and people often don't want to talk about happiness or they feel they have to pretend I'm, oh, I'm happier now because of this things like I am no happier than I was when we were full time running a business. Genuinely, I'm no happier, but I'm not as worn out. I think that's probably the way to put it. So I'm still glad I did it. But you know, the high did come back down and I'm a new state of that. We've watched those. Happiness is relative, isn't it is relative, completely relative. You could not work at all and be exactly as happy as you are right now or you could, you know, there are other factors. So I think it's important to keep in mind, we have this next conversation about flexible working and how it's not an automatic fix is that's kind of what we're saying. But in terms of stress, in terms of burnout, in terms of exhaustion, that can link to happiness, Obviously we're not as stressed and not as burnt out. You're not going to be absolutely, absolutely right. So less of the negative, less of the negative emotions. Put it that way.

39:57 My baseline is still about the same, but I don't feel as stressed and negative as I as regularly as I was feeling. Because there's something insane looking. I I look back at my, there was always the same point in the year when I was working full time when I would say to you, I don't wanna do this anymore. Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna quit and it was basically the end of every big time. Yeah. So getting towards the end towards Christmas, I'm like, I can't do it. I'm so tired end of Easter and in the summer I can't do this anymore. But I have genuinely not had that feeling of I am exhausted at the end of the term. Oh my God. Like complete exhaustion. Yeah, obviously end of the time he gets tired. We still work, you know, we still work and still have a break in the half time now, but I I haven't it's not been. The same being part time has highlighted how how stressful the job of teaching is. Yeah, and some people listen to this and I know my mates probably ohh teaching you're really hard job as if there's not other hard jobs.

40:47 I get it. I'm never commenting on other jobs not being hard or hard. I'm just saying teaching is. Really. Well, the Instagram comments section I think you will, honest to God. Yeah, but having our two days at home where we work just as many hours as we were doing a teaching day because because we still need to put in the time. I don't feel 10% as knackered after on a Thursday or Friday at the end of the day as I do on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. When I'm at school, if that isn't to me proof that teaching's insane. Like, I actually don't care, other people say. Anymore it's so. Exhausting is insane, So exhausting. And I'm actually at the point now where if someone honestly just what had just has a run-of-the-mill office job. I'm not degrading your job whatsoever or saying it's not important or what you're doing is is pointless. Yeah. What I am saying though is it is not remotely as tiring as teaching 32 children all day with the admin that goes around it. Yeah, it just isn't.

41:35 I'm sorry it's more stressful. Yeah, I agree. But if you're going to compare it to like a Labour job or some sort, I don't know. Probably different kind of exhaustion. Different kind of education I find. Actually the mental exhaustion more than the physical exhaustion. A bit of physical exertion. But what I'm saying with with labouring, that would be a physical exhaustion, physical which is different to teaching, which is just an all out mental exhaustion. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's insane. Yeah. It's weird, isn't it? We're bum tricky job. Yeah. So in terms of flexible working in general, we literally live flexible working and we're huge advocates for it. And I suppose what I want to talk about is the fact it's in the news at the minute as well. That's why I wanted to have this podcast. Before they working week well. Yeah, you talked about that. You said the Green Party manifesto has come out, the Green Party, Let's be clear, we're not gonna get into power. But what, what these kind of fringe parties can do is just put stuff in the discourse.

42:23 I suppose that's, that's yeah, 100%. And the idea of, you know, four day working weeks been around for a long time. There's been trials and stuff. And we've always, yeah. But we've always talked about how education does just feel different. It does just feel different. So firstly, let's think about what's been in the news of education. Like what could we actually do? What, what might flexible working look like? And we talked about going part time. That's the most obvious version of flexible working. But I've seen some other bits and I'm gonna, I'm gonna send them to you and you're gonna tell me what you think. Yeah, I've seen, I've seen a school in the UK who said every single Friday school finishes at half 12. I was going to mention this. As well. Yeah. So, you know, the school finished half 12, go home, whatever, crack on. Yeah, that's a good idea. Or not. I, I like the idea.

43:04 I read that article and I read into a bit more detail. There's some quotes from some teachers that were like, oh, it's great because now you know, I get the odd long weekend away now because I'll go out, I'll go away on the Friday, literally like lunchtime and go away Friday, Saturday, Sunday and come back. And it's really, really nice for that. And I was like, that's, that's a cool idea. But then I read in the same article that and I don't know why I'm surprised. Obviously this is happening, but they all they've done is condense all of those hours into the week. Yeah, it's the same amount of working hours. It's just that Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday with a longer days. That's what the four week is, by the way, four day week is because I don't know a lot. I'm very. Naive. A lot. A lot of it. Some of it's not. Some of it's the same of time, but some of it Is 10 hour days for four days OK instead of eight hour days for five. Days, so I want that. That made me, I don't know if this is right, rightful emotions or not, but I was a bit like, oh, it's just a gimmick.

43:49 Then it's the same amount of work. I'm going to be just as tired. I'm just condensing it into different days and then I thought or would I and actually I don't know. So this is where I want to hear what your opinion. Is no, I I've thought really interesting. I read about it too and I saw they made the days longer because I thought initially when I saw this, I thought, yeah, they've just made Friday PA Hmm. And like, you know, but no, they school literally. Closes then. I basically worked in a school that did this didn't. I Yeah. I worked. I worked in a school once he was as a free. School. So when you said you don't know how you feel? Yeah, it wasn't exactly like this. It was a bit different, but. You mentioned this before because you had basically finished. You started early every day and finished earlier every. Day finished later. Sorry. Sorry. The school finished there, but you didn't? Yeah. So the kids came in at 8:15. Yeah.

44:31 And they finished at four. Yeah, but you didn't. But I didn't on every day. So they did that Monday to Thursday. So from the kids perspective, it was 8:15 till 4:00 Monday to Thursday, and on a Friday it was 8:15 until 3:15. That was a bit more of a normal day. So it's not even shorter the last. Day No. For the kids. For the kids it wasn't, but for the teachers we had to do to to do the Friday was normal. We just everyone had to do Friday is normal. But for the four days that were a bit weird, that went to a 4/4/15, 4:00, whatever it was we had to do 8:15 until 2:00 on two of the days, Yeah, 8:15 until 4:00 on two other. Days right so this you're just told my PA. Ohh yeah, it was. Yeah, so so. I think it's a finish earlier. No. So this, this, this whole thing, the thing I was gonna say here is I thought it was just P on a Friday, but it's not, right.

45:16 This is the whole school where it's condensed. Ohh yeah. Into 4 1/2 days and then PPA still within that. So it would still feel good. What I was going to say about this example here of flexible working, leaving early on a Friday is great. And it might work for a lot of people. It might be, it might be, it might be sound. It might be a great idea, but it only works if the outer workload is also reduced. If the workload we have to do outside of the job is still just as much as in lots of schools where it's a problem. Yeah, then all you're doing is just stretching out the day even more because the day is already longer. As a teacher, Yeah. Name one teacher who actually finishes at 3:15 when the school finished. Of course they don't. They finish at 5:15. So if you're making the day finish at 4:15, all you're actually doing to a teacher is making that day finish at 6:15 on those.

45:58 So that's even more stressful. So if you're going to have these longer days as a teacher, that might work in an office when you go in early, leave early, but that's it. Yeah. As a teacher, that doesn't necessarily work if you have these longer days because you'll have to spend an hour prepping in the early in the morning and you're gonna have to stay late to do your marking and stuff. So I don't necessarily think this is the win. But I'd be interested to hear from people that have. I don't have anyone listening has actually experienced that exact situation. I know it's only like a couple of schools have done it, but I don't know my, my gut feeling is my gut feeling is it would be the exact same experience that we've had in the past, which is would it would be a cool gimmick at 1st and there'd be a bit of like whoa. And then it returned and you'd feel exactly the same. Yeah, I think, I think it's different to what we do because we literally dropped 2 days of. Work No, I know, but I mean I just meant that that it might feel good.

46:40 I reckon a lot of people is so much better, but give it a year. I my gut feeling is you're probably because you are doing the same amount of work in the week you're probably gonna. You're gonna feel worse on the days when you do a longer. Right. Yeah, it's gonna be absolutely. But at the end of the day, you can't argue with, you know, at least something along the weekend that's kind of cool. Another thing. So was it? This would require more funding I suppose, but a lot of schools give extra PPL already and it was to make PPE for anyone who doesn't work in a school is planning, preparation and assessment time. As a teacher, you get 10% of your teaching time in a week is given to you as time out of the classroom to prep stuff. We've done jokes before about how that doesn't remotely cover the time to prep, but so that what that translates to is half a day every week that teachers get out of the classroom. And something that I've seen battered around lately just to try and incentivise the job again a bit more because, you know, hybrid working isn't something that's possible in schools and we'll talk about that, but is to have a whole day of PA, just the whole day of PA where, you know, you're you, your children are still in school. So from a children's point of view, it's that a full week of school, but their teacher is not in on Thursday, let's say, or Monday or whatever it is.

47:42 And that day, perhaps they have sports coaches in the morning and they have, you know, specialist musician music teachers or Spanish teachers or drama, whatever it is in the afternoon or even just normal curriculum covered by a higher level teaching assistant, whatever. And that really interests me a lot more than the first one because the first one, just like, you know, moving jigsaw pieces around. Yeah, this one is actually putting some jigsaw pieces in the bin and not having to do it anymore. I agree. So this this one to me really, really piques my interest. I don't know what you think about having a whole day PPA. And the big thing for me was the freedom to not have to come in on that day and, you know, do whatever you want. To well, let's put the two elements of that then. So first of all, I think a whole day PPA, even if you're in school, would have an enormous impact on workload production.

48:25 I think it's a great idea. I think it's mental that we've got to 2024 and we still the, the, the powers that be still think 10% of time out of teaching is enough to remotely get anything done. But doesn't just impact teachers free time on the weekends and evenings. Whole day. Great idea. We should absolutely be pushing for that and fighting for that. Even better if you have that flexibility to go home on PA. So let's just about in general, what do you think about that in general, even schools that just have normal PA, do you think it should be widely accepted and normal to be able to just go home during PPA and do what you want in that time? Or do you think it should be something that's like, oh, you do what you want, but you gotta stay in school? Cause yeah, I was gonna ask you about this because it's something I've heard a lot of, especially after since COVID, because in COVID time you wanted to spend as little time as possible in buildings where people.

49:12 So it was policy for a lot of schools. Where go get out of you. Literally have to go home. It's not even not even doing you a favour. It's just don't spend a little time this building as possible. Go home because you're not teaching. I was going to ask you because my gut instinct is it's a it's a really good idea to give the professional, which is, again, I think it's something we forget a lot of teaching. We are professionals. We are a profession. We've been highly trained to do this job. Yeah. And we are entrusted to, to plan and assess stuff mostly in our own time anyway. So with that level of trust should come the level of trust to do that as and when we wish. Yeah. But what I was going to ask you is so obviously, yes to me is the answer. You should be able to take whatever you want. Yeah. What do you think though, about schools where, let's be honest, right now, there are some teachers who maybe are falling behind in their work, aren't aren't doing their planning.

49:59 And you know, we can talk about whether they should be planning at home or not. But the teachers who just need a bit more support aren't necessarily following the school ethos, let's say of planning all the school guidelines of how to do things correctly. Where do you stand on a school then using that almost as like a not, I guess a punishment, but a genuine way though to say, well, we want to give you some support. OK, So not, not talking toxicity right now, which we all know exist, I'm talking about schools like I want to give you some support. You've got some PDA time. I wanna come and support you in this planning. Wanna come and help you as your, as your SLT. Yeah, I wanna make you better. And actually you are underperforming. So it's part of my job to make sure it's making sure you're performing. What do you say to would you then have to say to all your staff, OK, no one can go home anymore? Or would you have a two tier system? Where?

50:47 OK yeah you're fine to go home but you need to stay here cause I'm helping. You out? Yeah, No, I I am completely against that. I think the fundamental issue there is is the idea that SLT get involved with your PBA, that that's it. To me I'm like Nope, PA are protected. Should be a protected time. I think a good manager needs to, if, if there's a problem that's out of the ordinary, then they need to do out of the ordinary things to solve it. They need to take them out of class in different times to do other things, to do various training, to do meetings, whatever. I don't think it should then be. And it is basically a punishment. It's everyone else gets this freedom of PA, but you don't because you're not doing your job good enough. So I'm going to take away the bit of freedom you have and we're going to use that time to solve it. I think it should be no, you're entitled to that just like everybody else. It doesn't that PA isn't dependent on how good you're doing your job.

51:33 I don't think it ever should be having, you know, it should be. There should be other processes involved. That's what good managers to do. So I've heard of schools doing that and I do think it's toxic. Think even if they try to say it's not toxic, I've heard of schools that have that allow their teachers to do P at home, but haven't allowed some teachers to do P at home or some or something along those lines. I've had loads of schools that do that just doesn't sit right as it doesn't sit right. All I'm like, no, you're just firstly, you're it's embarrassing. Two tier system. Yeah, two tiers is embarrassing. It's like a weird, you've now made PPA and meritocracy of like some weird. So it's as if they're not entitled to it already, you know. Well, they both get the. PA is what they might say. Yeah, but you don't if you're staying in school because I need you here to do. Something but they're planning like it would have been just gonna have. Support. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just think you did that. And I thought he's gonna freak out soon. As I told you no.

52:18 So in answer, absolutely not. It should never be, never be done like that. I think everyone should be entitled to PPA. And I also think everybody should be entitled to have P at home or do it wherever they wish. And I don't think that should ever be questioned genuinely. I think there's a single teacher that shouldn't have that privilege because like you said, on average we do 20 hours teachers on average, and this is a stat, it was 20 hours, 18. Hours. It was between 10 and 20. OK, I think it was around 20 hours of overtime, free overtime, extra overtime a week on average for teachers. And if they are doing that to get their job done, who, what manager on this planet is going to be like, ohh, if they take their pet home, they might not do their bloody work. They want to do work.

52:58 They might only choose to do the 20 hours they were going to do anyway and not be we're going to do in that time. But of course they're not. Of course not. Do you know what? Even if they did go home and put their feet up, they're still going to do the work. They'll do it at the weekend when they do their other 5 million jobs. It's not going to not get done. And if it's not getting done, then step in and sort it out. Yeah, You're a manager. Do your job at that point. Yeah, Basically, yeah. I find it hilarious because I guess that moves really nicely into what I want to talk about in terms of hybrid working. So you know what the government have done in the last few years. And again, we cannot turn our nose up at this because it's obviously a good thing, right, that they have raised the starting salary to 50,000 lbs. Yeah, they have decimated pay for a long time because that's, that's the that's the context. But yeah, you know, at least they did bump up the starting salary a decent amount to at least try and catch up somehow. They did something cool.

53:48 The bad news is it did nothing. So there were recruitment numbers haven't improved. So it was something like 500 extra teachers when you take into account the people who left teaching and the people who trained to become a teacher. We've got 500 more teachers like this year, which is insanely low. We need way more. OK. I remember the 8.8% teachers left last year. Yeah. And that's not including retirement. Yeah. So when you include the people who trained, we missed the training target. And because we missed the training target, the net figure was like 500 more teachers. We need way more teachers. So that was completely wrong. And a big reason that's being touted as to why this is happening is because teaching is kind of trapped in almost like the Victorian era, I suppose, but it's very much trapped pre COVID.

54:30 And I'm not necessarily sure it's teachings fault because I think teaching has some limitations as to whether hybrid working can even be introduced in the 1st place. So for a lot of professions now, if you're a young professional, the idea of being having some kind of hybrid working model where you might go into the office one or two times a week where necessary, but you can crack on with your work at home, that's really appealing. And way more common. Way more common now and and with teaching you have just got to turn up and teach you lessons every day. You know, there are children who come in because like it or not, a chunk of our job is childcare. So people can go to work and society can function. So, you know, it's not even a bad thing. Of course we need the children in school. And but the other part is that, you know, teaching is for face to face purposes.

55:11 That's how we do it. We go in and we help children. We can do boosters and stuff online. We can help children online, but the hybrid model doesn't really work with teaching. So I guess my point here is how can we have flexible working? How can we approach this? But even when hybrid working is something that can't happen. And the biggest kind of elephant in the room right now is we already do hybrid working as teachers. Like, you know, it wouldn't work in terms of the full time job. We actually have everyone like you can't do hybrid teaching. You gotta be in school for your job. So oh, yeah, that's that's weird because I do 20 hours of work a week at home. Yeah. So, you know, I could do work at home as a hybrid teacher. So teaching is already hybrid when you do a full time job because you're doing lots of work in your own time and evenings and weekend. How can we make this hybrid job an actual hybrid job? Or is it impossible?

56:03 What you think? I don't know. I don't know if there's probably some wacky way that you could do it I haven't thought of, but maybe just recognition of it. What do you mean for a start? Like the fact that you're saying it already is hybrid? But perhaps every Wednesday. And teachers, thank you for doing the work. Maybe recognition that by putting it into the job spec, maybe that, yeah, you do do work at home in this time. It's hybrid working. You do these things at home, but you get paid for. It, yeah, but that's that's funding. So that's not gonna happen. Yeah. So no. So how do we do it? I don't know if we can. Have you got any ideas? No, not really. I think it's impossible. I think we need to be in the room for childcare. Society needs to function. People are like ohh, teachers. We're not.

56:44 We're not child carers. Well, we are. There you are. We are though, aren't we part of our job? No idea. We were when we're at Centre Parks. We went to a restaurant and do you remember how we were served our food in the Mexican place? Little Robot came over genuinely just just by itself, came over all of our food on it, and then someone else came and gave us a plate. So a bit gimmicky, but. Came over looking forward how this is. Gonna happen. I'm thinking invest in robots, OK, with the funding we don't have, I will record from. I'll just sit at home, OK, And on the screen, prerecorded lessons, robot goes around, does my job. I think that's the most insane thing you've ever said. People are still listening.

57:26 Work. Thank you. Wouldn't work. Yeah. I guess the point I wanted to highlight with that kind of hypothetical there is that we already have a hybrid job. It's just that it's one and. 1/2 you look online though everyone will be teaching your kids in no time. It'll be robots before we know it. Well, I I. Think I don't think it. Will give it 5 to 10 years. Our kids are gonna have a transformational experience. Yeah, I absolutely change the world changes. Well, but yeah, you know, in terms of flexible working going back to it, I don't think hybrids reasonable. I don't think I don't I don't think that it could possibly work in schools unless for I don't know how this would work, but parents might have hybrid jobs and therefore be able to have their children at home certain days and they can do work.

58:09 But I don't think it will work. I think the way forward flexible teacher for flexible working the teachers is to like we said longer PPA, yeah and then you can be flexed with that job, but the kids are still in school doing stuff and even that timetable change at the very least is something that. Could happen. Well, OK, all right then in the real world then here's how flexible work, here's how I'm calling it flexible work. I don't know it is really is doing what we've done doing, doing job shares, making job shares always, well, not always some people don't want it, but making it more common that you can have job shares where you go in a certain amount of days and someone else because they are, there's a massive stigma. But that's not flexible working. With them it's not flexible working, it's just. Reducing because you get less. Power.

58:49 Now I know, I know yeah, but you know what at least in that scenario if for example, when we when we wanted to go part time when we were offered doing the mornings or five days a week and doing the three days a week instead to me I'm like well the three days it feels more flexible to do the three days a week then I get 2 days back rather than doing 5 days at work still. So at least in that scenario there was a bit of a choice there and I know that doing job share in days is quite frowned upon A lot of schools won't do it. They actually have a blanket or like we don't have to take. Jobs yeah we're really interested to know how many people listening their schools have a blanket no because I think even our school at some point that there was like don't like them they. Didn't want to have. Them don't like them, you don't like them at all. There is a stigma there with flexible work and that needs to change.

59:32 That has to change in teaching education. You, I'm not even going to pretend that there aren't pros and cons. And and when you say there are cons to a job share as a leader, you'd be like, OK, well, don't do them. But I think the pros mean we have to make it work. We have to grow up. We have to have a grown up conversation about it. If you just have a blanket, no. When your staff come to you and say, what about flexible working a blanket, no, cool. You're starting to burn out. You gotta lose them. Is that what you want? I was about to say. Is that what you want? Is it probably sounds very like up yourself doesn't. It no it sounds. Like at the end of the day they would have lost two members of staff. They have lost me and you at that point. So the pro was kept. Members of staff that worked here for years know the school and a bloody good. We didn't do a podcast at that point. They regret.

1:00:15 Yeah, I don't know. I think, yeah, flexible working, I can't, I can't think of a way comparably with other jobs that actually have flexible working where you get to work. I think it has to be built into things that already exist. I don't think children can be spending less time in school. Yeah, and that's, and that's my, I think that's where a lot of people draw a line. And it's personally where I also draw the line. If if flexible working means that kids are learning from home one day a week and it's forced, I think that's bad. I think there should be provision where children going because we're seeing now, for example, Labour in their manifesto have said about how they're going to have breakfast club places that free. Yeah. So if anything, we're expanding provision for children in school and that's going to get hopefully working people back at work and childcare and things like that. So I understand all of that.

1:00:58 I think it has to be built in where more bodies perhaps are in school, but for less time each and. And the big one for me is PPA all day because that doesn't affect the money you're getting, right. It would be short, would cost some money obviously to get cover for those mornings and stuff. But when we're talking about a comparative to, you know, any other option where children aren't in school or or, you know, ploughing us with money, I think this is a cheaper option. Idea about this and it is very, very similar. I'm not going to claim as I've got some crazy new idea, but you know, job share, no, no, but and this does come with a bit of funding. So I get that it may be less realistic immediately because there's no money.

1:01:39 But thinking about that PA from home idea, let's say a school was like, we just can't give you a whole day of PA. However, you're going to get your normal amount of PA, which is half a day, and you can still spend the rest of the day at home. This is part of your our flexible working policy. From my lunch. Yeah, it's, it's not PA, but you know, you're at home, you do what you want. So in that time you don't have, you can do what you want. You can work if you want. To what do you mean it's not? Pi suppose it is the same thing actually, it's just what it's just work, OK, But I'm imagining the idea of funding specialists to come in to make it up to make a flexible a flexible working calendar. Well, so you happy baby, you choose when you take it. Is that you mean? Yeah, I guess so at the beginning of me talking, I forgot that PPA basically is flexible working. That's essentially what PA.

1:02:21 Just doing their job, but it's not it's non contact time to do the rest of. Your job, yeah. But there is a reality, I think with a little bit of money where it's where it's just completely normal that people get, like you said, they can, they can choose their days or it maybe it is a set day or something. They can just be at home, maybe even more than one day. Just admit the PA 20 years behind. But but shut up. I don't see why they I just. I've got this idea why where teachers, they get an afternoon every week, they get one afternoon. I think one afternoon, one afternoon should be enough to do all the work they do outside of school. What do you think about that? Is that I think that's. Great, especially seeing it could be something like that. So flexible working can work then can't. It is just having a day off and we call it a it's. Fine, Yeah, Yeah, you should you be more needs to be more of it. Yeah, yeah.

1:03:05 So flexible working in that respect of this isn't really even flexible working, it's just making the job more manageable. But you can be exploit that day because you know what if you wanna spend that day morning in the spa and in the afternoon go shopping and do your work in the evening. Yeah, that is flexible then because you know you've been given that date back. Sure you can if you need to take that time. Lots of schools do. Every time you just get me day, you get personal day. You just book it in. It's there's no expectation. It's on top of everything you already do. Just get a date every time. And you might use that day to do your planning for next term and not think about it the weekends. That's your choice. Brilliant. You might use that day to go and see your family. You might put that down on Monday. Have a long weekend somewhere. Because actually there's a point, an important distinction that you kind of made there, which is that it we're flexible working.

1:03:50 If you're still expected to be on the job and home like you still expected to answer emails and stuff, yeah, that's different to complete flexibility of you do whatever you want with this day. Just get the job, just get the work done whenever you want. I think that's exactly the same. It's not because you still get the work done. No, but I'm expected to answer emails at home. They've got to be doing at that time. If flexible in terms of I'm not in the office, I'm working from home. I know people that flexible work and when they're on their days on their computer, we have to still prove that work. You've got to. They've got to respond. To e-mail, Yeah, sorry. Whereas if it was like because teachings already flexible, Yeah, in that respect. So sort of like if I do your extra unpaid work whenever you want. Yeah, exactly. But if I had PPI at home and the schools thing was, but you are doing people at home. And so we do expect you. If we've got some correspondence with you, we do expect you to answer emails you're working.

1:04:34 That's different to go home and do the work whenever you want. I think that I think that's reasonable in a way in terms of you can still e-mail stuff, correspondence, but then it just goes into that murky business of how much of your PPA is, yeah, protected. Because if someone emailed you in PA, right and said, ohh, cash, can I grab you for 10 minutes, We'd almost certainly just yeah, of course. Yeah, of course we would. But then if you're at home, do they? Yeah, but no, like can you say no? Can you say because it's your call for 10 minutes? I mean I think the fundamental thing is you probably should be able to say no in any situation anyway because your a time they can't direct you. I think it's one I, I'd be interested to know people listening, right? How much of their PA is actually completely undirected or not? Because a lot of people I remember when I start off my career, PA would be like, cool, let's meet at start PA and then we can just crack on afterwards.

1:05:23 And we still have that now. But that's practical and I don't mind it because that's part of me planning. That's part of my assessment. Like I'm going to get together my team chat, but that is a, that is a meeting that's imposed on me. So there there is that. I think that's what it has to be, that professional. Understand a lot of schools. I think this is quite normal, by the way, where PA is directed in the sense that they have to go to a certain PA room with their whole team so they can do their planning together. And so it's like they're not directing it. We just expect all your planning to be done together. That's an expectation. And we just expect that you do PPA in this room, but we're not directing. You want to do what you want in that time. We just need all of your plans to get done together. And there's a weird thing. I've known loads of schools that are like. That and then you trap people sometimes for example, I know you have we have our staff meeting after your PA yeah.

1:06:08 So that that is that has trapped point in a way like yeah, in what I mean by that is you probably couldn't go home. No, because you have to come back and that would be insane. Yeah, that's a good point actually. Cause realistically, if it wasn't me, it'd be another year group doing that. Yeah. So it's not like I could say just change my PPA day. Works for you. Selfish. Yeah. I suppose you could just make sure all of the staff have PBA on any of the days except for this one day that we do staff meetings. No one has PA on that day. So, yeah, I guess summary, do you think an introduction of proper flexible working? Mm-hmm. Let's say the discussion at least of the introduction of more PPA time, so the children stay in school, but the implementation of you absolutely can do what you want in your PPA time if that's going home or not. And also I would say the reduction of the stigma of job sharing.

1:06:58 And if someone requests job sharing, you should absolutely go out of your way to try and make it work. And it's a lot easier now to apply for flexible working you if you're knocked back, you can apply again. It used to be apply once, I think in a year. Now you can apply twice. There are certain things that the school have to say no because they have to fill out certain criteria. So when you apply, you can go through the 8 criteria and say it wouldn't affect the quality of my work because it wouldn't affect the morale of the school, because it wouldn't affect the children. Because like there are eight ways that schools can say no. And you can kind of, I filled out this form from my partner when we, we, we, we applied for her to go back and return to work with flexible and, and go part time. So you can counteract all of them. Do your research and apply with all of that in mind.

1:07:42 Do you think that there is any way that simply going down this road of more, more job shares, more part time for people who want part time, people who want full time still having a bit of flexibility with as and when they take their time, Do you think this will actually fix the problems that we have in? Each. I think it will massively help fix it is a big word. I think it will massively over a huge positive impact. Teachers are burning out, They're quitting. You can't go to the data. The education sector is getting worse and underfunded. Everything is getting worse in education. We need to do something, and I think this would help keep teachers in the job. We have to incentivize the job. So simple as that. Because if there's no incentive. That's weird. There is no incentive and no one's training. Yeah.

1:08:22 So umm, yeah, no, that's. Good chat. That's really interesting. And obviously we literally do part time. Yeah. And I think that's a distinction I wasn't quite making at the start of there are people who don't want to go part time. They want their full wage. Yeah, exactly. But they still want to have a decent sexuality. Yeah. I think the P thing is probably, I think that's probably it whole day PPA. I think the school could have a, a little bit of leeway in terms of, I wouldn't be totally against them saying that first portion of that day you need to at least be around. Yeah, it's a whole day. If they said, you know, between 9:00 and 12:00, just make sure you, you know, you're around at least to answer queries and things. I, I feel like I could get away of that. But then if, you know, if the rest of it was completely flexible, that be really cool. If the whole day was just completely flexible and like, we just don't care what you do on that day, as long as you get your job done, then that's cool as well. I mean, there's some scope there for like different variations of it, but the day off thing it's got, it's got to be done, isn't it?

1:09:12 It's gotta happen. It's gotta have, we wanna keep teachers. We've got to do something. Clearly upping the money didn't work. Yeah, the incentive at the start, it's like people looking around like, cool, yeah, but I'm still going to burn out. So I can burn out with 30 grand or I can burn out with 27 grand like. Or I can leave and get a 40 grand job somewhere. Else exactly and actually have flexible working. So either education has got to get the times eventually isn't it? The money is not getting there, so at least make the job better. 100% And you know what, all of this is cool. And like we talked about the jigging around at the timetable, even if we're not going to change anything, mean longer days and then a short day on Friday. All of this is genuinely completely pointless until we do actually sort out that workload problem. Yeah, like, you can do what you want. Like if that PA comes with extra, you know you're expected to do more because all you gotta hold out now so you can do this.

1:09:57 With this list of what you were doing before. No, no, no, no. No, no, that day needs to come with your job hasn't changed you still the same jobs to do. You just got an entire extra data because if the justification for Lt or whoever is in charge of the government or anything Ofsted is now what we need to have these high standards and, and we talked before, having high standards is really good and we need to have. Clearly, you know, gonna work really well to get this amazing curriculum. It's like, cool if you're gonna keep them cool, don't judge them, but give me extra time, yeah? To get there, I'll tell you what we'll drop the highest standards is when all your best teachers quit because they can go and get paid 50K for another job because they really highly skilled. Yeah, that's when the standards will start dropping exactly that which is what's happening. Retain your good teachers. Incentivize us. We love teaching. We don't want to leave. We don't want to teaching when you put your notice in. I've done it yesterday.

1:10:40 We haven't. We haven't. We haven't. I enjoyed that chat finished up there. Let's finish up there screaming in the background. Yeah, let's go and sort that. Out Bye bye everyone see you next time follows on Instagram at tech podcast. See you then.