Ep 56: Sophie B: SATs Insights, The Best Way To Prep & Widespread Cheating (Part 2)

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Hello, everyone.
Welcome back to another episode

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of Teach, Sleep, Repeat.
My name is Dylan and my name is

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Mike according to the Instagram
story.

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Right.
Very quickly made with the

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people who are listening here,
they, we had a lot of new

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listeners last week because of
the, you know, the the the thing

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that is Sophie Bartlett.
Yeah, the thing.

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The one.
The wonderful Sophie, Sophie

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Bartlett.
So we've got a lot of listeners.

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OK.
So we're gonna carry on milking

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that cow this.
Week.

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Hey, hang on, calling Sophia
Cowan.

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OHH, don't.
That's you.

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That's.
Sophie.

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No, the metaphorical
unbelievable.

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No, no, no, no, no Milking the
metaphorical cow that he's a

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social media presence and the
people should.

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Be taking advantage of.
So what?

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You're saying.
So she's going either way

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horrible about Sophie's not very
nice at.

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All me and Sophia bessies.
Alright.

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I don't know what you two like.
We're bessies.

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We're bessies.
Me and Sophie, she refers to me

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as her best friend.
Really.

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On social media?
That's all.

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Because she refers to me as her
best friend?

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Yeah, that's private.
It's not real.

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If it's not, where does that
leave me?

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And you?
The same as always.

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What?
Well, according to the kids at

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school, yeah, completely
enemies, right?

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We'll come on to that story a
very shortly, but guys do follow

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us on Spotify, do follow us on
Instagram, teach, speak podcast.

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That's where you can get all the
good stuff.

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We post random things and that's
referencing there, I think,

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aren't you?
Yeah, I am.

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I am referencing.
Because what was The funny thing

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I did this week on?
On our sorry on our Instagram.

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Story Ohh no that's the big
story from this week.

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I have been heading off
Instagram because for the grand

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reason of he does nothing.
I do nothing.

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Alright.
Thank you.

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Occasionally take pictures and
videos of me.

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So I'm I'm.
I'm on it.

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Yeah, what I'm doing there is
milking that cow and I am

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calling you.
It's all right.

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All right.
But yeah, do check out Dylan's

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Instagram for our Yeah, it's
just a picture of me now.

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Just a picture of me.
I might put you.

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I said to you and I made this
deal.

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Terrible picture by the way.
I keep meaning to say that Thank

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you if if you crap.
It's good to know your 3000

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followers if you post literally
just three wheels, right

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Whenever you get to three wheels
because you're currently on, Let

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me just count your zero.
So if you ever get to 3 reels,

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I'll put you back in.
OK so I just have to post 3.

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Rules.
You simply have to post 3 wells

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all together.
Yeah, literally ever.

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And I'm so confident you won't
ever reach that, that we'll end

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up with.
Jamie, we'll see about.

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That anyway, it follows in
there, guys follow us on here,

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share everything and that's it
for this week and do things

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anyway very quickly, let's catch
up then before we do go into

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part two of our chat with
Sophie, we'll summarise later

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what that's all about.
But Hayden, well, that's they're

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here to obviously hear about us.
Yeah, of course.

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Of course.
Well, let's start with what

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we're referencing earlier with
the with our banter at school.

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Yeah, because what was it the
kids said to you every day?

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They asked if we were actually
friends.

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Yeah.
So OK, I'll start with my story

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there because it's the context
that's needed.

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I think we had parents evening
OK this week.

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So lots of people this week had
parents evening the last week

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before holidays and when it's
parents evening straight after

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school and we have an extremely
long day.

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We're going to more detail in a
second.

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Our parents evening and I think
all teachers in the land know

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that we very quickly decided
that we're not doing any marking

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today.
So what can I do with my lesson

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to try and change it so that
there's nothing?

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Ohh.
Well we're gonna work on paper

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today kids.
We've got some sugar paper out,

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some big A2 sugar paper.
Nice.

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And I think I filed that under
bin after the episode episode.

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I keep saying episode and you
call episodes lessons.

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It's not like me to make my
words up, I'm gonna file that

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under bin, so when it's been
afterwards.

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But during it was actually
really good.

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They still did maths, right?
Whether or not was in their book

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with a green tick next to it or
in the dustbin.

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The point is they still did some
maths.

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Yeah, we were doing fraction of
a quantity and I thought, what

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better way to engage the
children then to make some

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counters, some homemade
counters, Not a boring old

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normal.
Counters.

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You guess what the counters
were.

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Was it your big round head?
It was my favourite and I

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happened to walk in the morning
just purely coincidentally when

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just as he was making and.
Printing I was.

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You almost came out.
I was almost grinning and

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giggling.
Twice.

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I was a bit worried about me,
all right.

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I'm losing my mind.
Playing skip the parents, so use

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the you use the counters of my
face.

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Thank you.
Very much, yeah.

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Yeah.
So these accounts of my face, of

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your face and one of the
children, whilst we were doing a

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question with your face simply
just, you know, very blase went

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are you Mr Stevens friends?
Because I think she's getting

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the impression now after a while
that we're even really good

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friends.
Or absolutely hate you and said

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are you?
Are you and Steve.

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Mr Stevens?
No, we're enemies.

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And I've just carried on walking
and she honestly didn't.

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Management.
Ohh, OK ohh.

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It's that one.
Makes sense.

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Yeah.
We're absolute enemies.

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So that was fun.
We did 5-6 of 12 of your head.

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They were sorting them out into
6 equal groups, two of you in

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each group.
And then we were counting up

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five lots of them, 5 * 2.
It was 10.

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It was fantastic.
Did it work?

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That's the main bit.
No.

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Didn't work at all.
No.

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Did it.
We're just completely distracted

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after we still.
Carry on, Yeah.

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And all that happened was
afterwards.

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I've got about, I'd say close to
100 children in the school.

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I have a picture of you in that
pocket.

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Yeah, I know, I know, because
loads of them came up running up

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to me asking for my autograph on
the back of those pictures of my

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head.
So.

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Cheers.
I'll post on Instagram.

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By the way, I didn't want to
see.

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And if you won that PDF of
Hayden's head for your maths

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counters, I'm not even joking
when I say if you message us and

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ask me for it, I will e-mail
you.

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No one's going.
To listen Hayden, I don't know

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if you actually follow us on
Instagram because I have over

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3000 followers on Instagram.
OK.

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That must be someone.
Out there who wants Hayden's

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head as counters?
I'm sure.

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Brilliant.
We hinted about parents evening.

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Should we talk about an hour?
Let's talk about let's talk

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about parents problem.
OK, well go on let me.

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Yeah, talk.
Talk parents had enough parents

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even was great mixed feelings as
always.

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I love, I actually love talking
to parents Genuinely love

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parents evening.
I just hate that it's on top of

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my work day.
That's it always.

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And schools do differently.
But I think Jen is pretty normal

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generally to have parents
evening in the evening after a

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full day of work or in the best
case scenario after.

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Maybe like some schools will
stop at lunchtime and then you

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start parents evening then or
whatever it is.

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But either way just I was trying
to think of a good analogy

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earlier and it's like imagine
doing imagine doing meetings all

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day with 32 people in your
meeting.

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They're all their.
Children, 32, young adults,

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yeah, You know, who are about
the age of eight.

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Do you mean teaching?
But it's just, it's just.

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Saying just meetings everyday,
people that don't work in

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schools, you know, just imagine
doing a meeting with loads of

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people and then you do that all
day and at the end of it you

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don't get a break and it's all
now you've got to do 1 to one

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meetings for six more hours.
It is.

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It's so exhausting and you know
it's exhausting when in those

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last appointments on the parents
go, ohh, you look tired and I'm

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like dude, I'm trying really
hard not to and I obviously look

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terrible.
I look tired when I walked in

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this morning 15 hours.
Ago.

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Yeah, yeah.
But I tell you what, just for

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someone working cause it's
boring, It was really nice and I

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had a lovely experience.
All the parents are really

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lovely, as they always are
anyway, and it was just a really

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good experience.
I think.

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I think the I do think the pros
outweigh the cons.

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I think one of the things where
you just get through it, yeah,

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it's annoying, but you know it.
You know, 222 or three times a

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year you're gonna have to do.
It you just have to get over it.

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I missed the first one because I
was on maternity leave and I was

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feeling really ill at the start
of this week.

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I I did a post on my Instagram
about it and I was just set my

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temperature got to 39.5 at the
start of the week and I woke up

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drenched.
But in saying that I only felt

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bad for about honestly like that
evening and then after it was

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just tired and the the fever
went anyway.

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I was like I can't miss parents
evening so I went home for PM

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and Tuesday just rested.
That really helped.

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Got through and I'll say one big
part and we talked about job

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share in the last episode of
Trophy.

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One big pro I found is being
able to bounce off each other a

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little bit because when we do
Parents evening, both myself and

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my job share are present and we
both talk and it just that that

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moment of being able to sit
there and just collect my

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thoughts.
Look at my laptop whilst I know

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Amy's talking about English for
example.

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Yeah, it it it, it makes the
whole thing, I don't know so

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much more easy to do.
And I don't feel as burnt out by

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the end because I remember doing
parents evening where it was me

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talking, trying to cram in 10
minutes, which is not enough to

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see one.
They're not really.

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And then knowing that you're
running late and you got to

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immediately go to the next one
and immediately go to the next

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one, I actually got mini breaks
in between where we could kind

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of bounce off each other.
So that to me is a really big

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perk of job share.
What?

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Was your time keeping like this
time?

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Really good and and the only
time it was it was bad was when

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parents just wouldn't shift or
take the hint and that you know

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you can't you can't help that
too much.

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And you know, there was one
point where we were stood up

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like very much finishing and the
conversation just carried on.

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And it was just, you know,
there's not much more you can do

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at that point.
Then go and and at one point I

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had to stand up and say, I'm
very sorry, I've got to go and

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grab these guys.
I've been waiting too long and

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that kind of oh, Oh yeah, sure.
I don't think anyone does it on

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purpose.
They say it makes you feel rude,

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that you don't feel.
No one wants to say that we feel

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awkward.
I just want talk about that kid,

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and you probably do want to talk
about that kid.

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You just know that there's.
Can I tell you one story very

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quick about parents evening?
Because it really shocked me,

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myself, because we were sat
there.

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We sit in like the shared area
between classrooms.

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And in the classrooms, parents
can go in and check the

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children's work.
We get all their books out.

230
00:08:59,890 --> 00:09:00,990
Yeah.
So before or after the

231
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,460
appointment, in case they're
running late, for example, they

232
00:09:03,470 --> 00:09:04,630
can just send me through their
work.

233
00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:06,560
So that's fine.
And opposite.

234
00:09:06,570 --> 00:09:08,530
So there's our classroom.
We're in the shared area

235
00:09:08,540 --> 00:09:11,070
outside, and we share that area
with a different classroom.

236
00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:16,220
And in that classroom, a child
walked through and Amy and I

237
00:09:16,230 --> 00:09:17,490
were just in between
appointments.

238
00:09:17,500 --> 00:09:19,330
No one was around the minutes.
We were just waiting.

239
00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,290
And she stood at the door and
she went, I've had a fish and

240
00:09:22,300 --> 00:09:24,340
we're like, OK, yeah, no
problem.

241
00:09:24,420 --> 00:09:28,200
And then she brought up her
hands like cast together and and

242
00:09:28,210 --> 00:09:29,930
and she like, yeah, I found a
fish, yeah, isn't that.

243
00:09:29,940 --> 00:09:30,860
Really.
How old is this kid?

244
00:09:30,870 --> 00:09:32,960
Roughly, it must be about 7-8, I
guess.

245
00:09:32,970 --> 00:09:37,680
Yeah, a young child.
I found a fish and I was like, I

246
00:09:37,850 --> 00:09:42,530
think, I hope it's a toy.
And and then she went, no, look,

247
00:09:42,540 --> 00:09:44,540
it's moving.
And then she came walking over

248
00:09:44,550 --> 00:09:46,170
and I saw this black thing jump
up.

249
00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,770
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, it
was a fish.

250
00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,950
Because what had happened was
what, in the pond outside in our

251
00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:53,630
nature reserve area?
No.

252
00:09:53,700 --> 00:09:56,120
She'd gone and scooped up a
fish, brought it in and said

253
00:09:56,130 --> 00:09:58,070
look, it's wriggling and it was
a wriggling live.

254
00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,610
Fish what?
What did you do?

255
00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,610
Would you like to go?
I squirmed firstly and I moved

256
00:10:04,620 --> 00:10:07,030
back because obviously she
didn't want to show off.

257
00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,280
I just said Ohh.
You're gonna bring that?

258
00:10:09,290 --> 00:10:11,380
Back wait Ohh yeah.
OK.

259
00:10:11,390 --> 00:10:15,160
And she's like it was nothing
walk back a live fishing like oh

260
00:10:15,220 --> 00:10:17,110
oh take.
I'm gonna take off my bingo for

261
00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:18,800
parents Evening live fishing
hand of.

262
00:10:18,810 --> 00:10:21,080
Child, I actually can't.
Even though you've just told me

263
00:10:21,090 --> 00:10:24,900
that I like, I don't believe.
It I I, I also still don't

264
00:10:24,910 --> 00:10:26,940
believe that actually happened
in France even.

265
00:10:26,950 --> 00:10:31,780
Fish.
Jumping around a lot might be

266
00:10:31,790 --> 00:10:33,820
jumping for much longer though,
if you don't go put it back

267
00:10:33,830 --> 00:10:36,270
really quickly.
Please do and also find your

268
00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:37,770
parents.
Who are you?

269
00:10:38,390 --> 00:10:40,200
Ohh my days.
That's really funny.

270
00:10:40,210 --> 00:10:41,600
Yeah, yeah.
So that was one of the moments

271
00:10:41,610 --> 00:10:44,040
where you know you're in the
rush, apparently, yeah, and you

272
00:10:44,050 --> 00:10:45,380
only got like a split second
down.

273
00:10:45,390 --> 00:10:48,980
Then the next person came in and
it wasn't until afterwards Amy

274
00:10:48,990 --> 00:10:51,970
turned to me and said.
Did that go have a fish?

275
00:10:51,980 --> 00:10:56,620
And I was like, yeah.
I think she had a fish, yeah.

276
00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:58,570
Yeah, she did.
She did.

277
00:10:59,100 --> 00:11:01,470
Anyway, Unbelievable.
And get back to it as if, as if

278
00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,960
you've not just don't have that.
That's brilliant.

279
00:11:03,970 --> 00:11:06,000
I've got one little, one little
story that took me this week,

280
00:11:06,010 --> 00:11:09,990
that took a year as well.
So it was just after the break,

281
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,350
just starting the next lesson
and a girl in my class, very

282
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,270
sensible and lovely girl.
I'm very trustworthy.

283
00:11:15,560 --> 00:11:17,850
Wouldn't you know, say anything
mean to anyone.

284
00:11:17,860 --> 00:11:19,530
Just like Sophie.
Just like Sophie.

285
00:11:19,540 --> 00:11:21,450
Just like Sophie.
Yeah.

286
00:11:22,270 --> 00:11:24,240
Yeah.
She came up to me and my best

287
00:11:24,250 --> 00:11:26,220
friend.
So you're busy.

288
00:11:26,370 --> 00:11:29,780
And and she said to me very
worried.

289
00:11:29,830 --> 00:11:33,800
Missus Stevens, I hate to tell
you someone has someone written

290
00:11:33,810 --> 00:11:35,980
something in the girls toilet on
the back of the door?

291
00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:37,460
And I thought, here we go.
Yeah 6.

292
00:11:37,470 --> 00:11:39,310
This is the time where they
start getting a bit like this.

293
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,880
You know, I'll go and secondary
school soon Big for my boots,

294
00:11:41,890 --> 00:11:45,340
that kind of attitude.
And I said, Oh yeah, OK you

295
00:11:45,350 --> 00:11:47,580
know, I said tell me what it
was, you know.

296
00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:49,730
And I was thinking you kind of
get to that level of trust.

297
00:11:49,740 --> 00:11:52,380
Sometimes with kids, especially
when I get older, it's like, I

298
00:11:52,390 --> 00:11:54,880
know we can't swear in things in
school but you, but you can just

299
00:11:54,890 --> 00:11:57,460
whisper this to me so it for for
the sake of me having the

300
00:11:57,470 --> 00:11:59,980
information, I'm not going to
tell you off sort of thing so.

301
00:11:59,990 --> 00:12:01,380
What?
What is it this.

302
00:12:01,390 --> 00:12:03,740
How dare you?
Don't head teacher.

303
00:12:03,850 --> 00:12:07,730
I didn't write it, just said it
And so I just sort of gave her

304
00:12:07,740 --> 00:12:09,680
that confidence and trust to be
like just tell me because I need

305
00:12:09,690 --> 00:12:12,430
to know what it is you know.
And she didn't want to.

306
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,630
She was like it's the B word.
And I was like OK, what what we

307
00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:17,780
talking.
I think there's a couple of

308
00:12:17,790 --> 00:12:20,680
words that could be and I said
and she didn't tell me and I

309
00:12:20,690 --> 00:12:24,310
just sort of whispered, I said
is it you know, BITCH.

310
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,250
And I said the word to her and
she went no.

311
00:12:28,540 --> 00:12:30,980
And at this point, I think,
actually, what?

312
00:12:31,030 --> 00:12:32,800
What is it?
Then I said, look, I said right,

313
00:12:32,810 --> 00:12:33,850
come here, just whisper it to
me.

314
00:12:33,860 --> 00:12:36,570
I need just tell me what it is.
And she came right in and

315
00:12:36,580 --> 00:12:39,600
whispered to me, look so worried
at this point, thinking she's

316
00:12:39,610 --> 00:12:40,960
about to get in trouble, she
went.

317
00:12:42,730 --> 00:12:46,010
It's bum.
Get out of here.

318
00:12:46,060 --> 00:12:47,970
Get some head teachers office
for wasting my time.

319
00:12:48,810 --> 00:12:51,440
They're saying bum, yeah.
That was it.

320
00:12:51,450 --> 00:12:52,780
I just thought it was just so
innocent.

321
00:12:52,790 --> 00:12:54,920
There's something like Boo.
Yeah, yeah, I know.

322
00:12:54,930 --> 00:12:57,830
Yeah, B.
Bum bum.

323
00:12:57,870 --> 00:13:00,160
Obviously when they go to
secondary school, they're gonna

324
00:13:00,170 --> 00:13:04,640
have a brand new he said.
The B word, it's like listening

325
00:13:04,650 --> 00:13:07,050
him up, and it is.
See what you can find not

326
00:13:07,060 --> 00:13:08,540
written on the.
Door at secondary school.

327
00:13:09,740 --> 00:13:12,380
Yes, that's quite funny.
Tickle me right, We're here to

328
00:13:12,390 --> 00:13:13,590
talk about.
We'll talk talk to.

329
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,770
So I can't speak.
We're here to talk for AS.

330
00:13:15,780 --> 00:13:17,990
Well, keep leading the.
People here, we're here to talk

331
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,820
to Sophie.
Guys, if you listened to last

332
00:13:19,830 --> 00:13:23,130
week, you'll notice that we we
finished the episode an hour in

333
00:13:23,180 --> 00:13:25,650
halfway for our conversation.
So we did split it into two.

334
00:13:25,660 --> 00:13:28,190
So it will start a little bit
abruptly after the Jingle

335
00:13:28,260 --> 00:13:30,370
because we're just going to
carry on playing you our

336
00:13:30,380 --> 00:13:32,820
conversation with Sophie last
week, but we've got a bit of

337
00:13:32,830 --> 00:13:34,980
focus this week.
Dylan, what's our focus with?

338
00:13:34,990 --> 00:13:37,370
Sophie.
Yeah, Well, anyone who's been

339
00:13:37,380 --> 00:13:39,750
engaged with Sophie posters
online knows that she is an

340
00:13:39,810 --> 00:13:42,040
absolute expert when it comes to
the key stage.

341
00:13:42,050 --> 00:13:42,760
Two Sats.
Yeah.

342
00:13:42,830 --> 00:13:44,670
And we've had a lot of China.
Because she's my best.

343
00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:46,050
Friend Ohh, brilliant.
Yeah.

344
00:13:46,060 --> 00:13:48,860
I've had a lot of chat over the
last few weeks I think and in

345
00:13:48,870 --> 00:13:51,960
our podcasts across this kind of
whole journey, I guess of teach,

346
00:13:51,970 --> 00:13:54,760
sleep, repeat of, you know, our
Sats.

347
00:13:54,770 --> 00:13:57,640
Even relevant, should we do the
Sats and what we're doing them.

348
00:13:57,650 --> 00:13:59,400
So what's the best way to go
about them?

349
00:13:59,410 --> 00:14:02,710
And Sophie brings fantastic
insight into the breakdown of

350
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,550
the Sats.
We talk about, you know, their

351
00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:07,760
effectiveness.
And one of my favourite bits of

352
00:14:07,770 --> 00:14:09,850
discussion from this episode,
which you really need to stick

353
00:14:09,860 --> 00:14:14,190
around and listen to, was the
kind of chat that no one seems

354
00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,570
to want to have sometimes in
public discourse, which is the

355
00:14:16,580 --> 00:14:19,370
breadth of cheating that goes on
when it comes to these

356
00:14:19,380 --> 00:14:21,550
assessments.
And you know, we all know those

357
00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,060
schools, we look, look at their
data and then they get 97%

358
00:14:25,070 --> 00:14:27,800
across the board, reading,
writing and and it's like, OK,

359
00:14:27,810 --> 00:14:30,790
well I know you're cohort and
I'm not sure.

360
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,750
I know you're not going to sit
here and and individually look

361
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,130
at anyone and say, well, you
must be cheating, but let's be

362
00:14:36,140 --> 00:14:38,970
real for a second.
It is an endemic thing where

363
00:14:38,980 --> 00:14:41,910
there's a lot of trust goes on
in school and we talk about

364
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,440
that, the depth and that was
really interesting to me and I

365
00:14:44,450 --> 00:14:46,860
feel like sometimes as the non
year six teacher in the

366
00:14:46,870 --> 00:14:48,410
discussion.
Yeah, even though I'm best

367
00:14:48,420 --> 00:14:51,210
friends with Sophie, I felt like
you and Sophie had a really nice

368
00:14:51,220 --> 00:14:53,470
chat and my connection didn't
help.

369
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,070
And we're gonna mention that in
this one.

370
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,990
Because yeah, you're so laggy.
The first half, last time was

371
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,350
OK, this half again just come in
half over.

372
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,710
So what do you think about the
the mass?

373
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:05,750
And did it.
So I was editing this the the

374
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,410
the conversation and and you,
you honestly don't talk for like

375
00:15:08,420 --> 00:15:10,040
15 minutes.
At one point you just sat there

376
00:15:10,050 --> 00:15:11,710
like this.
Guys, gonna enjoy that.

377
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,220
Make sure you watch the episode.
You can watch me sit there like

378
00:15:14,230 --> 00:15:15,960
a little puppet waiting for me
to come in.

379
00:15:15,970 --> 00:15:21,320
Yeah, which I don't do.
So enjoy, right.

380
00:15:21,330 --> 00:15:23,420
So we're back and we are now
going to talk about SAS.

381
00:15:23,430 --> 00:15:25,820
We've had a long chat about
parenting and thank you so much

382
00:15:25,830 --> 00:15:26,460
for that.
Sophie.

383
00:15:26,470 --> 00:15:28,140
It was great to get your
insights and know what our

384
00:15:28,150 --> 00:15:30,660
future holds.
But we're going to talk about

385
00:15:30,670 --> 00:15:32,340
SATS now.
It's very interesting to us and

386
00:15:32,350 --> 00:15:34,880
it is SAT season.
Even Dylan and I are making

387
00:15:34,970 --> 00:15:38,340
videos and things with with our
company on on Sats at the moment

388
00:15:38,350 --> 00:15:40,220
and we're doing a lot of SATS
prep at school.

389
00:15:40,490 --> 00:15:43,180
And I just want to start with
one thing, all right?

390
00:15:43,190 --> 00:15:46,980
Because this is possibly the
best resource I've ever ever

391
00:15:46,990 --> 00:15:49,060
used.
And Sophie does come from you.

392
00:15:49,070 --> 00:15:50,360
I'm just.
Speaking up here.

393
00:15:50,490 --> 00:15:53,720
One page answers that you made
yeah 4 Sats.

394
00:15:53,730 --> 00:15:56,610
I I imagine you get a tonne of
downloads on those things

395
00:15:56,620 --> 00:16:00,140
because I see people asking for
them in on Facebook all the time

396
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,280
and they are so unbelievably
handy.

397
00:16:02,290 --> 00:16:06,270
So if you are in year six and
and you're doing the Sats rather

398
00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,280
than having the massive booklet
to to to get the answers from

399
00:16:09,290 --> 00:16:10,540
and constantly going through
the.

400
00:16:10,550 --> 00:16:13,100
Worst.
Sophie has put all of the

401
00:16:13,110 --> 00:16:16,330
answers onto one single page,
which you can print or you can

402
00:16:16,340 --> 00:16:19,690
have on your screen, and it is
the most useful thing when it

403
00:16:19,700 --> 00:16:22,470
comes to being sat there for
several hours marking sats.

404
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,310
So thank you for making those.
Just wanted.

405
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:25,840
To pick you up.
It's such a simple thing is that

406
00:16:25,850 --> 00:16:28,450
I don't know why they would put
like one answer on one page

407
00:16:28,460 --> 00:16:30,070
sometimes.
Ridiculous.

408
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:31,220
So.
It is annoying.

409
00:16:31,230 --> 00:16:32,910
There we go.
And and worst case scenario like

410
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:34,730
with the reading paper,
sometimes there's like more

411
00:16:34,740 --> 00:16:36,430
nuanced things to go and look
out for.

412
00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:38,470
You can always go to the booklet
for like one or two of those

413
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,160
things but do it having it all
on one page.

414
00:16:40,170 --> 00:16:41,480
Ohh my days.
Yeah super handy.

415
00:16:41,490 --> 00:16:43,770
So thank you for that.
Definitely speed up my marking

416
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:45,950
last week.
So I like to hear.

417
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,870
Good amount of time, Yeah.
Anyway, so Sophie, you're the

418
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:50,700
expert.
You're right.

419
00:16:50,710 --> 00:16:53,810
We have a bit of a chat about
Sats in general, but there's

420
00:16:53,820 --> 00:16:55,910
anywhere you want to go.
You know, you take us down that

421
00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:00,390
path of Sats and I think maybe
maybe we can start with some

422
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,780
interesting insights.
So last year, I think it was

423
00:17:03,790 --> 00:17:08,230
after the 2023 seats, there was
a lot of backlash, I guess.

424
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:10,569
I know Dylan.
Dylan was quite vocal about it

425
00:17:10,579 --> 00:17:12,730
on Twitter and and things, and
you were as well.

426
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:14,609
And I don't know if you've got
anything to mind.

427
00:17:14,619 --> 00:17:16,530
I don't want to put you on the
spot too much if you haven't got

428
00:17:16,540 --> 00:17:19,210
these things in front of you,
but can you remember anything

429
00:17:19,220 --> 00:17:22,640
about anything interesting about
the 23 seats that you wrote out

430
00:17:22,650 --> 00:17:27,670
in terms of maybe how the papers
were designed or or some of the

431
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,320
interesting things that you
found out afterwards?

432
00:17:31,330 --> 00:17:33,140
Yeah.
I mean, I could tell it kind of

433
00:17:33,150 --> 00:17:36,740
follows a similar trend to a lot
of the other papers in terms of

434
00:17:36,750 --> 00:17:39,440
I think one of the main things
I've noticed from all of them,

435
00:17:39,450 --> 00:17:41,980
and I do know this sort of my
head have said it so many times,

436
00:17:42,150 --> 00:17:46,640
is that on pretty much all the
papers since 20.

437
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:49,760
OK, So 2016 is an anomaly in
lots of cases.

438
00:17:49,970 --> 00:17:52,800
I don't know if you remember it.
It was just weird and wonderful

439
00:17:52,810 --> 00:17:54,540
in so many ways.
I think that was the first one

440
00:17:54,550 --> 00:17:57,530
since the new curriculum.
So when I say I'm gonna say from

441
00:17:57,540 --> 00:18:00,860
2017 onwards because I feel like
2016 we were trying it out.

442
00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:08,790
The general pattern is in maths,
you can pass a SATS paper by

443
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:10,810
technically not knowing any year
six content.

444
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,410
So if you were to remove all of
the questions based on year six

445
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,230
lesson objectives and answered
all the year 345 ones correctly,

446
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,590
you could still pass the SATS
paper because the Passmark has

447
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:26,050
historically always been just
above half, so like 51 to 54%

448
00:18:26,250 --> 00:18:29,970
which is a similar proportion to
the year 3-4 and five content

449
00:18:29,980 --> 00:18:32,730
domains.
So in theory you could just

450
00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:36,830
abandon the entire year 6 maths
curriculum and make sure your

451
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,830
children solidly knew the rest
of key stage 2, which obviously

452
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,590
goes to show how important the
recipes stage two is.

453
00:18:43,710 --> 00:18:46,240
And and they could probably
still attempt some of the year

454
00:18:46,250 --> 00:18:48,390
expressions just on the
knowledge they have from years

455
00:18:48,540 --> 00:18:51,690
3-4 and five and obviously EFS
one and two because that builds

456
00:18:51,700 --> 00:18:53,690
on it.
Someone had a bit of moan on

457
00:18:53,700 --> 00:18:56,110
Facebook at me because I said
how important key stage two was

458
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:58,850
and they said also key stage 1
and I was like well that goes

459
00:18:58,860 --> 00:19:02,940
without saying, OK see little
bit bitter about that.

460
00:19:03,060 --> 00:19:06,360
Umm so there's that.
And the other thing with the

461
00:19:06,420 --> 00:19:10,160
maths paper is that regardless
of the year group you could also

462
00:19:10,170 --> 00:19:14,720
just pass the paper on solely
knowing 4 operations.

463
00:19:14,730 --> 00:19:18,100
So add, subtract, multiply and
divide content domains and

464
00:19:18,330 --> 00:19:19,920
fractions, decimals and
percentages.

465
00:19:20,130 --> 00:19:23,120
So again in theory you could
just not even cover statistics

466
00:19:23,130 --> 00:19:26,500
shape all of that just real
you're basically arithmetic

467
00:19:26,510 --> 00:19:30,430
stuff and pass the sats paper.
So I know it sounds like or I'm

468
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,230
just catering to Sats, but we
all know that those content

469
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,230
domains appear in all the other
areas of mass.

470
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,310
So if anything they are the ones
they need the most.

471
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,050
Just for life and for secondary
school.

472
00:19:39,060 --> 00:19:41,090
Anyway.
Sure, sure.

473
00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:46,530
So that was a really key thing.
The reading I think I've been

474
00:19:46,540 --> 00:19:48,330
saying for a long time.
I think poetry is going to

475
00:19:48,340 --> 00:19:51,210
appear and it hasn't.
It's only appeared once, I

476
00:19:51,220 --> 00:19:55,730
believe in a Sats paper since
the new curriculums come out and

477
00:19:55,780 --> 00:19:58,240
I can't remember talking my head
what year that was maybe two or

478
00:19:58,250 --> 00:20:01,430
three papers ago.
So for the last couple of years,

479
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,030
I think it's gotta come up.
It's gotta come up, Let's look

480
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:04,190
at some poetry.
And it hasn't.

481
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,220
So.
I'm surely just by, you know,

482
00:20:07,230 --> 00:20:09,100
laws of statistics.
It's gotta come up this year.

483
00:20:10,210 --> 00:20:13,200
But the reading Passmark,
interestingly was increasing,

484
00:20:13,210 --> 00:20:16,140
increasing, increasing and then
last year dropped.

485
00:20:16,150 --> 00:20:18,730
And now one of you might know, I
can't remember my head but it

486
00:20:18,740 --> 00:20:19,810
was.
I think it was one of the lowest

487
00:20:19,820 --> 00:20:21,400
it's been in a while.
Either of you know what?

488
00:20:21,410 --> 00:20:24,780
I think it was 20, it was either
24 or 26.

489
00:20:24,870 --> 00:20:26,920
I can't remember because I
remember it was it was 1 market.

490
00:20:26,930 --> 00:20:28,640
Side and percentage.
Yeah.

491
00:20:29,150 --> 00:20:30,680
Yeah, raw score.
Score.

492
00:20:30,690 --> 00:20:33,240
Yeah.
So I think 2016 was the lowest

493
00:20:33,250 --> 00:20:34,620
because of how hard that paper
was.

494
00:20:34,630 --> 00:20:37,170
But again discounting that, I
think this is the lowest it's

495
00:20:37,180 --> 00:20:41,490
been which was interesting.
I don't know whether that what

496
00:20:41,500 --> 00:20:43,620
that was a reflection of really
could be anything.

497
00:20:43,630 --> 00:20:47,520
Could it could be all political
conduct and and then the grammar

498
00:20:47,530 --> 00:20:51,980
paper off of my head in
similarly to the maths, the

499
00:20:51,990 --> 00:20:54,510
majority of the paper, the
amount that you need to pass,

500
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,840
you can pass on solely knowing
it's too content domains think

501
00:20:57,850 --> 00:21:00,700
it is punctuation and word
classes.

502
00:21:01,050 --> 00:21:05,850
Those two G1 and G5 now sort of
my head so word classes, there's

503
00:21:05,860 --> 00:21:07,590
a huge one because obviously
there's so much there that

504
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,350
nouns, verbs, adjectives, all of
this.

505
00:21:09,420 --> 00:21:12,170
But again you could kind of
dismiss the rest of it and just

506
00:21:12,180 --> 00:21:14,010
focus on that.
There's so many questions about

507
00:21:14,020 --> 00:21:16,850
identify the pronoun, identify
the determiner.

508
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,930
I mean it's boring as anything.
But if we drilled that into the

509
00:21:19,940 --> 00:21:24,110
kids yeah they could pass it.
And the way that the SPAG paper

510
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:26,750
set up again, as you know, the
spellings 20 marks, the

511
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,810
grandma's 50 marks.
If you have a really strong

512
00:21:29,820 --> 00:21:32,380
speller, they don't actually
need that much in the grammar to

513
00:21:32,390 --> 00:21:33,910
pass.
And if they're really poor,

514
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,810
speller annoyingly blows in the
grammar.

515
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,750
Yeah, I've always thought being.
I thought we thought it was

516
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,930
quite annoying that there's no
allowances for officially.

517
00:21:41,940 --> 00:21:44,130
Yeah, dyslexic.
Children in this case, but

518
00:21:44,140 --> 00:21:46,410
that's you.
Know problem I think it's mad

519
00:21:46,420 --> 00:21:48,590
like even just recently we
obviously we did our mock sats

520
00:21:48,940 --> 00:21:52,010
and and and just again I got a
boy in my class he's he's really

521
00:21:52,020 --> 00:21:55,270
intelligent such a such a lovely
hard working boy but spelling

522
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:56,850
just happens to be a bit of a
weakness for him.

523
00:21:56,860 --> 00:21:59,590
Yeah and and he smashed one of
like one of like the highest

524
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,190
scores in terms of the GPS paper
out of 50.

525
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,740
Yeah, but then but then got the
lowest score in spelling.

526
00:22:05,860 --> 00:22:06,860
Quite a lot.
Yeah.

527
00:22:06,870 --> 00:22:09,410
And so his total came out sort
of quite a lot lower than anyone

528
00:22:09,420 --> 00:22:11,100
else.
He was gutted because he's he's

529
00:22:11,110 --> 00:22:12,470
one of those kids.
He's really, you know he really

530
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,370
wants to achieve this stuff.
And I and I thought, oh man,

531
00:22:14,380 --> 00:22:17,190
that really does suck cause
yeah, he actually put, he got

532
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,930
there's so much knowledge
required for that GPS paper

533
00:22:19,940 --> 00:22:22,110
which he has smashed and that it
should feel really good about

534
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:24,110
himself.
But he's now feeling like ohh,

535
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:26,630
not not that good because he
couldn't he couldn't spell some

536
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,430
random arbitrary words.
Ohh, it's stupid.

537
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,510
I have so many issues with
things like that and I don't

538
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,430
think, correct me if I'm wrong,
I don't think that is.

539
00:22:33,540 --> 00:22:36,150
The grammar and spelling paper
is taken into account.

540
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,030
The progress of value added
scores, I know it.

541
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,550
I don't think it's used to set
targets for children.

542
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,080
So I know the maths and the
reading are used to set GCC

543
00:22:45,090 --> 00:22:46,840
targets, but I don't think the
grammar is so.

544
00:22:46,850 --> 00:22:48,960
I always think Dylan's nodding
so I'm hoping that's correct.

545
00:22:49,250 --> 00:22:51,620
Yeah.
I mean, I don't think might be

546
00:22:51,630 --> 00:22:53,300
from you.
Yeah.

547
00:22:54,630 --> 00:22:57,450
So I always think, ohh, Julie,
what doesn't matter if they

548
00:22:57,460 --> 00:22:59,250
don't do as well in the grammar
because of that.

549
00:22:59,260 --> 00:23:03,030
But then also, I feel like the
grammar is potentially one of

550
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,170
the easiest ones to score higher
in because a lot of it is

551
00:23:05,180 --> 00:23:08,770
multiple choice and it's stuff
that you can just drill the kids

552
00:23:08,780 --> 00:23:12,810
in, whereas the reading is
obviously notoriously complex.

553
00:23:12,860 --> 00:23:15,670
And on that note, so I'm going
for a million tangents.

554
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,640
I find it really frustrating
when people post and it's not

555
00:23:19,650 --> 00:23:22,020
their fault at all.
There's pressure from SLT where

556
00:23:22,030 --> 00:23:24,770
people post on social media.
Ohh, I've got these cuspy

557
00:23:24,780 --> 00:23:27,100
children and we're all, you
know, we all do it.

558
00:23:27,110 --> 00:23:28,750
Custody children, boundary
children, whatever.

559
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,840
Those children that are getting
979890 nines got his custody

560
00:23:31,850 --> 00:23:33,840
children reading really need
them to pass.

561
00:23:33,930 --> 00:23:36,320
What can I do to get them past
the pass mark?

562
00:23:36,330 --> 00:23:39,100
And I think apart from test
technique at this stage, what

563
00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:41,840
are you supposed to do with
reading in like a matter of

564
00:23:41,850 --> 00:23:43,870
weeks?
They can either read in like

565
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,060
infer or they can't.
There's not really that much you

566
00:23:46,070 --> 00:23:48,560
can do.
Maths may be slightly different

567
00:23:48,570 --> 00:23:51,160
because you can just drill the
arithmetic, but reading and

568
00:23:51,170 --> 00:23:53,790
spelling, they can either spell
well or they can't.

569
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,350
There's really not that much you
can do it at this stage, but

570
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,260
people are quite rightly just
desperate at this point and you

571
00:23:59,270 --> 00:24:01,960
know, doing a million practise
papers and whatever they think

572
00:24:01,970 --> 00:24:04,190
is gonna get them over the line
and it just creates a really

573
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,390
interesting culture.
I think of desperate teachers

574
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,550
doing things that maybe aren't
the best for the children.

575
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,830
But you know, we're all in a
situation where we have to do

576
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,770
certain things because of our
SLT, so.

577
00:24:14,420 --> 00:24:15,990
Nothing.
Nothing feels like more of a

578
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,190
waste of time than a test
technique lesson.

579
00:24:20,620 --> 00:24:23,200
Like a lesson that is solely
focused on people.

580
00:24:23,210 --> 00:24:26,570
People can pretend it's not, but
unless that's solely focused on

581
00:24:26,580 --> 00:24:30,000
realistically how to answer 3
mark questions, yeah, in a

582
00:24:30,010 --> 00:24:32,020
reading paper, stuff like that.
It's like well we've all been

583
00:24:32,030 --> 00:24:35,240
there, we've done them.
But you you really think about

584
00:24:35,250 --> 00:24:36,420
it.
I'm like, ohh God, what are we

585
00:24:36,430 --> 00:24:37,910
doing?
Like SO destroyers.

586
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:38,760
Nervously.
What?

587
00:24:38,770 --> 00:24:40,490
What, What education is for.
Yeah.

588
00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:42,750
And then another another thing,
I find it's really hard like

589
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,810
with with your, with your
example with with you know like

590
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,150
three children is I guarantee
you there's loads of schools

591
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,550
where the children who actually
need help.

592
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,770
So maybe the children kind of
lower down, they probably get

593
00:24:58,780 --> 00:25:00,900
pushed to the side because it's
like, ohh, you're not going to

594
00:25:00,910 --> 00:25:03,410
pass anyway.
Yeah, we're gonna focus on these

595
00:25:03,420 --> 00:25:06,620
children who might go through
the boundary and I don't like

596
00:25:06,630 --> 00:25:07,830
that.
I don't like the whole

597
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,550
prioritisation aspect.
I think it's a key.

598
00:25:11,980 --> 00:25:15,540
Yeah, I think is a good way to
describe it.

599
00:25:15,550 --> 00:25:19,660
I like I wanna this is coming as
a non year six teacher so you've

600
00:25:19,670 --> 00:25:22,440
been chatting away there both of
you about well you know you can

601
00:25:22,450 --> 00:25:25,260
pass if you just do these and
you you can you know prioritise

602
00:25:25,270 --> 00:25:27,480
this and it's easier to get
marks when it comes to that And

603
00:25:28,210 --> 00:25:32,680
so as an on year six teacher
looking in I find it all a bit

604
00:25:32,690 --> 00:25:38,700
crazy and I really like my gut
instinct is that we need to test

605
00:25:38,710 --> 00:25:41,020
children at the end of the key
stage two to see where they're

606
00:25:41,030 --> 00:25:42,960
at.
Obviously I'm I'm completely for

607
00:25:42,970 --> 00:25:47,060
testing but I am absolutely,
massively against the whole

608
00:25:47,070 --> 00:25:50,880
culture of year pics in general
and I think it works teachers to

609
00:25:50,890 --> 00:25:52,910
the bone.
I think the pressure from SLT is

610
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,820
huge because it defines your
school and I and I think it

611
00:25:56,830 --> 00:26:01,700
leads into this culture of doing
stuff for a number to go up on

612
00:26:01,710 --> 00:26:04,920
the test at the end of the year
rather than what's best for the

613
00:26:04,930 --> 00:26:06,820
kids.
And I'm not trying to diminish

614
00:26:06,830 --> 00:26:09,700
what you two do whatsoever or
you know the whole country as a

615
00:26:09,710 --> 00:26:13,600
whole.
But how how do you you know how

616
00:26:13,610 --> 00:26:16,400
do you balance that as a year
six teacher who wants the best

617
00:26:16,410 --> 00:26:17,880
for the children.
How?

618
00:26:17,890 --> 00:26:23,210
How do you actually managed to
do a whole year with your class

619
00:26:23,220 --> 00:26:27,450
and be the teacher to help them?
But realistically you're

620
00:26:27,460 --> 00:26:30,450
actually getting them for a
test, so where Where is the line

621
00:26:30,460 --> 00:26:31,350
now?
How do you balance it?

622
00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:35,790
Yeah, Ohh, it's so hard isn't
it?

623
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:37,320
I have so many things to say
about this.

624
00:26:37,490 --> 00:26:43,700
I really like to underplay it
massively, which has aggravated

625
00:26:43,710 --> 00:26:48,760
some SLT previously because they
like to go the other way.

626
00:26:48,810 --> 00:26:51,760
Luckily the school I'm in at the
minute is so massively

627
00:26:51,770 --> 00:26:53,500
supportive.
I think it does help

628
00:26:53,510 --> 00:26:55,220
contextually with very small
village school.

629
00:26:55,230 --> 00:26:58,280
The head teacher knows all the
children or the families inside

630
00:26:58,290 --> 00:27:02,360
out, so she has known about that
particular cohort we've got.

631
00:27:02,370 --> 00:27:04,080
She's known them from
Foundation, right?

632
00:27:04,090 --> 00:27:07,530
So she knows almost what Sats is
gonna look like before three or

633
00:27:07,540 --> 00:27:08,990
four years before we gonna get
there.

634
00:27:09,060 --> 00:27:13,190
Whereas my experience in bigger
schools is that not all bigger

635
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,670
schools, but that sometimes
children can perhaps be treated

636
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,310
like data and less like the
child that they are because

637
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:24,100
there's so many of them.
So we traditionally haven't had

638
00:27:24,110 --> 00:27:26,670
the most amazing SAT scores, but
we have quite a high proportion

639
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,550
of SCN and we are proud of our
school.

640
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,870
We have work amazing with our
children and they make progress

641
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,830
in so many other areas that
aren't necessarily schools on a

642
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,990
SATS paper.
And that's something I made sure

643
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,970
I asked when I looked round to
the school that I'm at now is

644
00:27:40,980 --> 00:27:43,930
how much focus they put on SAS.
Because I personally didn't want

645
00:27:43,940 --> 00:27:45,210
to be at school that was doing
Easter.

646
00:27:45,220 --> 00:27:49,000
Boosters after school, boosters
before school boosters, purely

647
00:27:49,010 --> 00:27:51,260
doing English and maths from
January to May.

648
00:27:51,270 --> 00:27:54,360
Sometimes from September to May
or not doing PE, not doing art.

649
00:27:54,490 --> 00:27:58,120
All of this And my school like,
had never historically done that

650
00:27:58,130 --> 00:28:00,090
and still don't do that.
So that was something as

651
00:28:00,100 --> 00:28:03,900
important to me.
But I know that some parents

652
00:28:03,910 --> 00:28:06,460
now, some of my friends that are
parents are not teachers.

653
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,780
Look at that data on a school
website and will judge the

654
00:28:09,790 --> 00:28:11,500
school by it all that looks like
a lovely school.

655
00:28:11,510 --> 00:28:13,390
But their SATS results are only
this.

656
00:28:13,550 --> 00:28:16,000
Like, please don't just look at
that as a tiny part of the

657
00:28:16,010 --> 00:28:17,270
story.
You don't know what their

658
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,420
progress is like.
They might have been brilliant

659
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:22,160
in year two and even though
their schools look that great,

660
00:28:22,170 --> 00:28:23,740
they haven't actually made good
progress.

661
00:28:23,790 --> 00:28:26,580
Whereas some schools that might
not look as great, they might

662
00:28:26,590 --> 00:28:29,210
have made amazing progress.
You just can't see that part of

663
00:28:29,220 --> 00:28:33,010
the story.
And so back to your original

664
00:28:33,020 --> 00:28:37,210
question, I try not to make it a
huge focus to the point where

665
00:28:37,220 --> 00:28:39,510
maybe I went too far one year
and the kids came in and said,

666
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,870
ohh, is it sats this week?
And I thought maybe maybe I

667
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,970
should have put a little bit
more onus on it then turning up.

668
00:28:44,980 --> 00:28:48,290
Not even though they're doing a
test, but I just figure what

669
00:28:48,300 --> 00:28:51,590
help does it do to the children
to put so much pressure on them?

670
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,500
They turn up.
And we all know that when we're

671
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:56,240
that anxious and stress, we
never perform as well that we're

672
00:28:56,250 --> 00:28:58,350
going to if we're, if we're
relaxed.

673
00:28:59,850 --> 00:29:02,860
At the end of day, it's not even
for them, it's for, it's not

674
00:29:02,870 --> 00:29:04,670
even for us.
But you know, it doesn't benefit

675
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,220
the children anyway, so why
would we put them through extra

676
00:29:07,230 --> 00:29:09,200
stress for something that
doesn't even benefit them?

677
00:29:09,330 --> 00:29:11,940
Which is very table that we
don't even wanna be in.

678
00:29:12,030 --> 00:29:14,220
Exactly.
It's I realise it's easy for me

679
00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:16,420
to say working for such a
supportive head and as such a

680
00:29:16,430 --> 00:29:18,440
supportive school.
And there are other teachers

681
00:29:18,530 --> 00:29:21,580
probably wanting to do the same.
But they've got maybe in massive

682
00:29:21,590 --> 00:29:24,430
academies where the you know,
those that are much higher up

683
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,040
are telling them they have to
hit XYZ.

684
00:29:27,110 --> 00:29:29,040
Which leads me on to something
we might want to later but

685
00:29:29,050 --> 00:29:32,450
having performance management
based on SATS results for year

686
00:29:32,460 --> 00:29:35,190
six teachers, which is just.
Yeah, yeah.

687
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,970
So yeah, that that is where I
kind of stand with it.

688
00:29:38,980 --> 00:29:41,110
Dylan, I don't know he would be
interested in here.

689
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,550
Sorry.
I've like interviewing you as

690
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:43,850
well.
But I just, I'm genuinely

691
00:29:43,860 --> 00:29:46,330
interested Hayden, how you like
approach it.

692
00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:48,250
Yeah, yeah, sure.
What in?

693
00:29:48,290 --> 00:29:50,290
In terms of how we approach that
our?

694
00:29:50,300 --> 00:29:50,730
School.
Yeah.

695
00:29:50,740 --> 00:29:55,350
Like like like what did?
I was saying kind of I get all

696
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,440
how much did the child, how much
the children wear?

697
00:29:57,450 --> 00:29:59,720
They're doing it.
They are they stressed or is it

698
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,630
school generally?
I think our kids are our kids.

699
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,220
Our kids are super aware.
Yeah, I don't think I don't.

700
00:30:06,230 --> 00:30:08,350
Yeah, I think we're super aware.
Our kids know.

701
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,690
I mean, I've I've found myself
using phrases like I hate this

702
00:30:12,700 --> 00:30:14,590
by the way.
I I find myself using phrases

703
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,100
like let's play the game.
I just play the game because I

704
00:30:18,110 --> 00:30:21,010
almost can't.
I almost can't make myself even

705
00:30:21,020 --> 00:30:22,190
pretend.
No.

706
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,390
But it's actually important.
So I'll just say things like Ohh

707
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,670
play the game because that's my
way of saying this is pointless,

708
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:28,970
but we've gotta do it for some
reason.

709
00:30:29,060 --> 00:30:31,700
Yeah, it's better than me saying
that especially of writing

710
00:30:31,710 --> 00:30:34,430
moderation, which is obviously
kind of part of the whole school

711
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,010
is Sats in general.
We've talked about writing

712
00:30:36,020 --> 00:30:39,790
moderation in previous episode,
but just I just, yeah, I say to

713
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,810
my kids like, ohh, they're like,
oh can I just want to be

714
00:30:41,820 --> 00:30:43,570
creative.
So I wanna do this and this.

715
00:30:43,580 --> 00:30:45,420
I'm like, ohh, yeah, you do need
a semicolon in that.

716
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,490
Yeah, play the game.
Have you found yourself, have

717
00:30:49,500 --> 00:30:52,540
you found yourself saying I'm
not gonna teach that it's only

718
00:30:52,550 --> 00:30:54,900
one mark on the paper or
something like that?

719
00:30:55,020 --> 00:30:57,390
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've yeah.
And I and I don't like it.

720
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:58,240
It's horrible.
Yeah.

721
00:30:58,420 --> 00:31:01,050
This year I've been really
strict actually, and I've been

722
00:31:01,060 --> 00:31:03,810
like, Nope, we're teaching every
single part of the curriculum

723
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,210
for the sort of roughly
allocated time that it's

724
00:31:07,220 --> 00:31:09,550
supposed to have.
I'm not going to do one day on

725
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:10,980
ratio because there might only
be one.

726
00:31:10,990 --> 00:31:13,070
Like, no, I'm doing a week on
ratio cause I want to understand

727
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,170
that I'm gonna do two weeks on
algebra, whatever it is.

728
00:31:15,180 --> 00:31:19,000
I don't care if it's one
question, but it is hard because

729
00:31:19,010 --> 00:31:22,560
in a day, like you said, if our
performance management is based

730
00:31:22,570 --> 00:31:23,780
on articles, pretty chill, by
the way.

731
00:31:23,790 --> 00:31:25,420
Like we've we've actually got a
really nice environment.

732
00:31:25,430 --> 00:31:26,780
I don't feel that pressure as
much.

733
00:31:26,790 --> 00:31:28,250
Yeah, I know, I know it could be
a lot worse.

734
00:31:28,260 --> 00:31:29,860
So we put that pressure on
ourselves a lot of the time

735
00:31:29,870 --> 00:31:31,700
because our school is filled
with people that that really,

736
00:31:31,710 --> 00:31:33,640
really, really, really care and
they want our school to look

737
00:31:33,650 --> 00:31:34,840
good because it's a great
school.

738
00:31:34,890 --> 00:31:38,630
Yeah but yeah you know I've been
I've worked in other schools

739
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,040
where it would be you'd be you
feel way more pressured like

740
00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:45,550
that performance management lure
of ohh well yeah your pay won't

741
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,050
go up.
It's like what do you mean?

742
00:31:47,060 --> 00:31:49,260
What do you mean my pay is are
linked to this?

743
00:31:49,340 --> 00:31:52,010
It's insane, isn't it?
I just don't think.

744
00:31:52,050 --> 00:31:55,010
I mean, I've never been in that
situation, but I have friends

745
00:31:55,020 --> 00:31:57,490
who are, who are.
You know this percentage must be

746
00:31:57,500 --> 00:31:59,300
achieved in order for you to go
pay for it.

747
00:31:59,460 --> 00:32:02,150
You just think you ordered the
cherry on the cake you've had

748
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,590
them for.
I worked out the fraction once

749
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,600
for the number of teaching
weeks, but bear in mind they've

750
00:32:06,610 --> 00:32:08,970
been in school for six full
years by the time they get to

751
00:32:08,980 --> 00:32:12,000
year 6 and you've only got
however many weeks before May to

752
00:32:12,010 --> 00:32:15,300
top off their education.
And yet your pay is going to be

753
00:32:15,310 --> 00:32:17,980
based on how they do in Sats.
It's the most ridiculous things.

754
00:32:17,990 --> 00:32:21,690
And then that creates the whole
hierarchy of I don't if you've

755
00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:23,860
had a teacher, a parent, sorry
either.

756
00:32:23,870 --> 00:32:26,960
You say to you if you've moved
year groups, if you go up a

757
00:32:26,970 --> 00:32:28,690
year, they go, ohh,
congratulations, They think it's

758
00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:31,810
a promotion and if you go down a
year they think you're kind of a

759
00:32:31,820 --> 00:32:33,790
demotion.
In the bad books, yeah.

760
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,640
Yeah, yeah.
And it's just like all we need

761
00:32:35,650 --> 00:32:38,290
are our best teachers in year
six, and I actually think we

762
00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:39,570
need our best teachers.
And you were.

763
00:32:39,580 --> 00:32:42,940
So it all kicks off because
that's where the foundation of

764
00:32:42,950 --> 00:32:45,170
the learning comes from.
I agree.

765
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,540
But yeah, I can't remember the
original point.

766
00:32:47,550 --> 00:32:50,150
Was no, no, it's just about, you
know progression and pay and

767
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,250
stuff like that.
I know I gotta bring Dylan in a

768
00:32:52,260 --> 00:32:55,690
second because I know he's had
opinions in the past on pay

769
00:32:55,700 --> 00:32:59,690
performance and how data
comparisons that like the worst

770
00:32:59,700 --> 00:33:04,210
thing I think I can think of in
terms of comparing data to like

771
00:33:04,260 --> 00:33:06,530
say this is how much progress I
should be making is comparing it

772
00:33:06,540 --> 00:33:09,770
to a previous cohort.
I'm going to bring you in on

773
00:33:09,780 --> 00:33:11,160
that one.
When we look at data and say

774
00:33:11,230 --> 00:33:15,810
last year you know we got 68%
expected, so this year we need

775
00:33:15,820 --> 00:33:17,320
75.
Ohh.

776
00:33:18,260 --> 00:33:20,730
Going down, yeah.
Honestly.

777
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,090
But you warmed up.
You get me started again.

778
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,340
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Honestly, it winds me up because

779
00:33:25,350 --> 00:33:29,870
the the worst thing is
sometimes, sometimes it's done

780
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,700
really not maliciously at all.
And I've worked with people

781
00:33:33,710 --> 00:33:36,330
who've brought this up right.
And they're simply just saying

782
00:33:36,340 --> 00:33:38,310
it as like a point to me.
They're just like, well, you

783
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,650
know, last year we we did get
this many kids here.

784
00:33:41,660 --> 00:33:44,690
So you know a Dip's going to be
bad and they're not being

785
00:33:44,700 --> 00:33:48,490
malicious or anything but I'm
just like OK, but that OK those

786
00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:50,740
kids could read though and my
kids can't.

787
00:33:50,750 --> 00:33:55,270
So that is quite different.
And the other way is I've also

788
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,500
worked worked with people where
I've seen it happen before where

789
00:33:58,510 --> 00:34:01,530
they they're they're being dead
serious like SLT.

790
00:34:01,540 --> 00:34:04,610
And and there there's they've
I've worked with someone who

791
00:34:04,620 --> 00:34:08,130
said in a different school that
I work in currently but they've

792
00:34:08,139 --> 00:34:10,850
said that they've literally been
told no excuses.

793
00:34:11,060 --> 00:34:14,770
It's got, it's got to be done
and it's like ohh, but we don't

794
00:34:14,780 --> 00:34:17,170
know if you were around for the
last two years but there was a

795
00:34:17,179 --> 00:34:19,469
global pandemic where kids
didn't come into school.

796
00:34:19,610 --> 00:34:23,360
So when when I say excuse I
actually mean reason and

797
00:34:23,449 --> 00:34:26,020
therefore we can't really
remotely compare this.

798
00:34:26,030 --> 00:34:29,770
It's It's mad.
Yeah, yeah.

799
00:34:29,889 --> 00:34:33,560
I sometimes find weird like
governors meetings when

800
00:34:33,570 --> 00:34:35,780
obviously there are people that
are quite rightly supposed to

801
00:34:35,790 --> 00:34:38,639
hold your account to things.
And if all you've got to go on

802
00:34:38,650 --> 00:34:42,120
is data and you're not OK with
the inner workings of a school,

803
00:34:42,210 --> 00:34:44,920
you see these numbers and you
know you think ohh logically the

804
00:34:44,929 --> 00:34:46,840
number should stay the same or
go up.

805
00:34:46,909 --> 00:34:49,699
And then you get judged on that
rather than, like you say, the

806
00:34:49,710 --> 00:34:52,810
complexities of the different
cohorts and the the timetable

807
00:34:52,820 --> 00:34:54,840
and the different staff members
and the gaps that we've had.

808
00:34:54,850 --> 00:34:58,500
And you cannot say ohh well they
had a 15% drop.

809
00:34:58,510 --> 00:35:00,990
So in maths.
So what are you doing with your

810
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:01,960
maths?
Teaching pyjamas.

811
00:35:01,970 --> 00:35:04,060
Teaching so bad.
And it's so much more complex

812
00:35:04,070 --> 00:35:06,610
than that.
It's just such a random way of

813
00:35:06,620 --> 00:35:08,350
assessing and judging everyone
on.

814
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:11,530
As maths leads we had this exact
thing what you just said exact

815
00:35:11,540 --> 00:35:15,320
thing where in our school it
always seemed to be Year 5 where

816
00:35:15,330 --> 00:35:19,520
the the kind of the focus from
SLT completely not not no malice

817
00:35:19,530 --> 00:35:22,810
whatsoever but the focus must be
like the data is dropping off in

818
00:35:22,820 --> 00:35:24,540
year five.
I mean what's what's going on

819
00:35:24,550 --> 00:35:26,050
here.
This is a bit odd like why does

820
00:35:26,060 --> 00:35:29,170
this keep happening And if you
really dig deep into it you can

821
00:35:29,180 --> 00:35:31,610
almost break the key stage two
curriculum up in our opinion.

822
00:35:31,620 --> 00:35:34,060
So yeah, three and four and year
5-6.

823
00:35:34,110 --> 00:35:37,160
Because if you take for example
fractions, decimal percentages,

824
00:35:37,590 --> 00:35:40,220
a huge chunk of what the
children will end up doing in

825
00:35:40,230 --> 00:35:44,120
year six, the jump on in
difficulty going from year four

826
00:35:44,130 --> 00:35:47,420
to year five is insane.
Like year four, Yeah, we work

827
00:35:47,430 --> 00:35:49,900
with all the same kilometre
kilometres, all the same

828
00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:56,310
denominators, denominators and
the the only difference we use

829
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,190
different denominators is if the
children have a fraction more in

830
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:00,440
year four.
So they can just see what

831
00:36:00,450 --> 00:36:02,830
equivalent fractions are.
If you come forward to year

832
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,360
five, suddenly they've got to
order different dominators, add

833
00:36:05,370 --> 00:36:07,790
different denominators, use
equivalent fractions without a

834
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,570
fraction wall and their
multiplication, they do long

835
00:36:10,580 --> 00:36:12,550
multiplication.
In year five there's so many

836
00:36:12,590 --> 00:36:15,190
strands where instead of just
adding a digit and place value,

837
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:16,770
but like the procedure is the
same.

838
00:36:17,180 --> 00:36:19,750
Yeah, it's a huge new learning
curve and we found that they had

839
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,150
dropped to year five and
actually we've really

840
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,390
implemented this idea now of
that's going to happen.

841
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,410
That's expected, and it's not
judged as much down by the by

842
00:36:27,420 --> 00:36:29,790
people in charge.
Yeah, that's good idea.

843
00:36:29,980 --> 00:36:33,410
Right, Dylan, there's new rules
in this podcast because you're

844
00:36:33,420 --> 00:36:35,790
lagging because your Internet is
not so great, Well done for

845
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,070
preparing for the podcast so
you're no longer allowed to

846
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,160
speak.
So you are now only allowed to

847
00:36:40,170 --> 00:36:43,350
speak if Sophie or I invite you
to the conversation, and which

848
00:36:43,420 --> 00:36:45,580
at which time we'll wait for you
to hear it because you're 5.

849
00:36:45,590 --> 00:36:46,730
Seconds, What's the rules,
Hayden?

850
00:36:46,740 --> 00:36:49,290
Sorry.
And then and then no, no, no,

851
00:36:49,300 --> 00:36:50,900
you're you're doing it again.
You're doing it again, mate.

852
00:36:50,910 --> 00:36:51,920
You're interrupt.
Don't speak.

853
00:36:52,230 --> 00:36:53,980
No more speaking.
This is my podcast now and

854
00:36:53,990 --> 00:36:55,820
you're a guest.
Mine is Sophie's podcast now

855
00:36:56,130 --> 00:36:59,110
anyway, so just moving on, carry
on with this chat cause I'm

856
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:05,020
super invested and going back to
a final point about the pay for

857
00:37:05,060 --> 00:37:07,090
like the performance appraisal
system, right?

858
00:37:07,180 --> 00:37:09,420
I just, I'm speaking now
directly to listeners,

859
00:37:09,430 --> 00:37:11,290
particularly if you're not even
in education.

860
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,510
What do you think?
Is that one of the the biggest

861
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,090
problems?
What do you think happens a lot

862
00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:20,700
across the country when teachers
pay and their performance are

863
00:37:20,710 --> 00:37:24,870
pay is is related to how well
their kids do in the SAS?

864
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,590
I'm sure people at home probably
thinking, oh, I reckon people

865
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,730
fudge their scores.
And Sophie, I know we were

866
00:37:30,740 --> 00:37:32,710
chatting the other night about,
you know, about this very

867
00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:34,930
briefly because we've got to
talk about this in the podcast.

868
00:37:34,940 --> 00:37:37,200
Yeah, have you?
What is your experience and

869
00:37:37,210 --> 00:37:38,830
maybe you've not had any
personal experience.

870
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:43,250
What is your understanding of
how performance related pay

871
00:37:43,260 --> 00:37:46,960
might impact the the way some
the way some schools and

872
00:37:46,970 --> 00:37:50,180
children are performing suddenly
in the SATS exams?

873
00:37:50,550 --> 00:37:53,940
It's what's been really
interesting is around Sats week

874
00:37:53,990 --> 00:37:57,540
on Facebook cause you can post
anonymously as how many people

875
00:37:57,550 --> 00:38:01,240
say ohh my goodness I saw my
colleague or my head doing this

876
00:38:01,250 --> 00:38:04,630
is this right?
Or even sometimes admitting

877
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,640
they've done certain things and
you know what half the time I

878
00:38:06,650 --> 00:38:10,610
can't even blame them because to
have potentially like you say

879
00:38:10,620 --> 00:38:14,960
you'll pay based on the Sats and
the Sats are again I worked out

880
00:38:14,970 --> 00:38:18,990
once I can't remember had
something like 5 hours of tests

881
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:24,200
to represent an entire seven
years worth of learning over not

882
00:38:24,210 --> 00:38:27,740
even whatever percentage of the
curriculum cause loads of areas

883
00:38:27,750 --> 00:38:30,240
aren't even tested and you know
you don't know how the kids are

884
00:38:30,250 --> 00:38:32,670
feeling that day and it's like
my pay is dependent on how a

885
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,750
child's gonna perform on a test
that day And we all know

886
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,050
children are the most variable
creatures and and so you get

887
00:38:38,060 --> 00:38:41,830
things like OK, a question.
Testing passive voice to active

888
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:43,490
voice.
Can the child convert from

889
00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:45,230
passive to active Have they got
the mark?

890
00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:46,950
Fine.
But have they put a full stop.

891
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:48,240
No, they've got to.
Full stop.

892
00:38:48,250 --> 00:38:49,610
So we're not gonna give you the
mark for that.

893
00:38:49,620 --> 00:38:51,700
Even though you've understood
the content, if you're not

894
00:38:51,710 --> 00:38:54,080
getting the mark because you've
not done this random thing,

895
00:38:54,090 --> 00:38:56,390
that's nothing to do with
passive and active voice.

896
00:38:56,510 --> 00:38:57,880
Just, yeah, stupid things like
that.

897
00:38:57,890 --> 00:39:01,020
I think potentially the work,
one of the worst culprits for it

898
00:39:01,070 --> 00:39:05,240
was this year's last year's
reading test where there were so

899
00:39:05,250 --> 00:39:09,580
many unacceptable answers.
Again, maybe Dylan could not

900
00:39:09,590 --> 00:39:11,840
shake his head and obviously I
wasn't in school for this, but I

901
00:39:11,850 --> 00:39:14,880
remember because maternity
leave, I think there was a

902
00:39:14,890 --> 00:39:19,110
question and it's something like
the answer would accept rustlers

903
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,730
but not the rustlers.
Or something ridiculous where it

904
00:39:21,740 --> 00:39:24,750
would accept a word and not
another word or hadn't you

905
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:25,910
remember?
Yeah.

906
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:27,450
It would.
She marked this recently and I

907
00:39:27,460 --> 00:39:29,830
think that might have been it
was like, yeah, it was OK.

908
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,470
The quote.
I remember it like it was the IT

909
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,560
was the most it was the
stupidest question I've ever

910
00:39:33,570 --> 00:39:35,250
seen in my life.
I hated this question.

911
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,000
Yeah.
After reading the text, there

912
00:39:37,010 --> 00:39:41,170
was a bit where it said and then
it hit her and the question says

913
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,890
in quotations.
Then it hit her What?

914
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,000
What is it?
Yes.

915
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,430
That's the question, and I hated
that question.

916
00:39:49,500 --> 00:39:54,140
Yeah, and the answer is the
realisation that it was the

917
00:39:54,150 --> 00:39:56,920
rustlers and it also accepted
rustlers.

918
00:39:57,700 --> 00:40:01,430
Yes, but not not the rustlers.
Yeah, the people that the group,

919
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,390
because they were like, no,
because that's that's not it is

920
00:40:04,660 --> 00:40:05,950
rustlers.
You could replace it with that

921
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,270
word, but not the rustlers.
It isn't actually them.

922
00:40:08,530 --> 00:40:13,170
Yeah, it's so insane.
I just think if you're not, in

923
00:40:13,180 --> 00:40:15,030
fact, not even if you're not a
teacher, if you're not a year

924
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,290
six teacher, lots of year six
teachers have no idea that kids

925
00:40:18,300 --> 00:40:19,850
are.
This is what they're testing the

926
00:40:19,860 --> 00:40:21,310
kids on.
This isn't understanding of

927
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,070
their reading test, of their
reading comprehension.

928
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:27,310
This is a test of guess what is
in my head with this random

929
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:28,790
person that's writing the mark
scheme.

930
00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:32,170
It's just so weird.
And a few years ago, because I

931
00:40:32,180 --> 00:40:33,990
think they've changed the rule.
Now, I remember in the grammar

932
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,810
test, if you had to insert an
effort to write a word with

933
00:40:36,820 --> 00:40:40,470
apostrophe if you in your
handwriting connected the

934
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,210
letters across the apostrophe.
Yes.

935
00:40:42,220 --> 00:40:44,830
So if it was, it's for it is.
And you connect to the T and the

936
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,950
S and then pushy, they wouldn't
give you it.

937
00:40:47,100 --> 00:40:49,470
So you have to separate the tea.
And yes, I think they've changed

938
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,170
that rule now.
But you just think that is

939
00:40:51,180 --> 00:40:52,290
insane.
Yeah.

940
00:40:52,300 --> 00:40:53,840
Well, don't take my word for it
to double.

941
00:40:53,850 --> 00:40:56,450
Check that, because I think that
isn't that mad.

942
00:40:56,460 --> 00:40:58,090
So do.
I and I think I'm.

943
00:40:58,100 --> 00:41:00,470
Stupid.
Yeah, as if that's a valuable

944
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,380
use of my time.
Like telling kids that you need

945
00:41:02,390 --> 00:41:04,510
to leave a space between where
the apostrophe goes.

946
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,350
But again, it's cool, but it's
not that important.

947
00:41:07,420 --> 00:41:10,180
It's not, it's not really that
important, to be honest.

948
00:41:10,190 --> 00:41:12,290
I'd rather they just can put the
apostrophe where it goes.

949
00:41:12,380 --> 00:41:14,390
I don't think there's a human
being alive that won't be able

950
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,890
to interpret that apostrophe,
those two letters, just because

951
00:41:16,900 --> 00:41:19,590
they're joined underneath it.
Like ohh on what are we talking

952
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:20,510
about?
Ridiculous.

953
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,040
I think the maths test is
potentially the only one where

954
00:41:23,050 --> 00:41:26,250
I've never thought, wow, this is
really unfair.

955
00:41:26,300 --> 00:41:28,020
I think there's been a couple of
questions.

956
00:41:28,060 --> 00:41:31,650
Do you remember the one about
reflecting a triangle?

957
00:41:31,660 --> 00:41:34,670
Was that last year's one?
Yeah, the way that axis was

958
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,100
drawn was really weird.
And so some children who clearly

959
00:41:38,110 --> 00:41:39,940
understood how to reflect the
triangle were putting in the

960
00:41:39,950 --> 00:41:41,290
wrong place and get the marks
wrong.

961
00:41:41,300 --> 00:41:44,780
Yeah, it just feels like I
understand that.

962
00:41:45,270 --> 00:41:47,690
I get the marking system and
how, Oh, that's a whole other

963
00:41:47,700 --> 00:41:50,800
issue because so many Sats
markers complain about pay and

964
00:41:50,810 --> 00:41:53,520
workload and treatment.
But I understand how it has to

965
00:41:53,530 --> 00:41:55,920
be marked.
But you think if, as you know,

966
00:41:55,930 --> 00:41:58,500
SATS markers are professional
teachers, if you can see the

967
00:41:58,510 --> 00:42:00,940
child is clearly understood, we
should be allowed to give them

968
00:42:00,950 --> 00:42:03,700
the mark, the fact that they've
got these stupid rules in place,

969
00:42:03,710 --> 00:42:05,560
why they're 10, we're eleven
years.

970
00:42:05,570 --> 00:42:07,240
Old.
I constantly get annoyed about

971
00:42:07,250 --> 00:42:08,840
that.
But anyway, but going back to

972
00:42:08,850 --> 00:42:11,640
the original point I guess is,
is that cheating is rife.

973
00:42:11,650 --> 00:42:14,060
So if you're not in this world,
cheating is rife.

974
00:42:14,130 --> 00:42:16,680
Yeah, in in the sats because the
pressure is on.

975
00:42:16,690 --> 00:42:18,880
And like Sophie said, you can
understand there there are lots

976
00:42:18,890 --> 00:42:21,000
of different situations where
you might be like I might be a

977
00:42:21,010 --> 00:42:23,260
bit more sympathetic.
Because if if a child's whole

978
00:42:23,270 --> 00:42:25,800
knowledge of apostrophe is
tested on one question that

979
00:42:25,810 --> 00:42:28,360
comes up and they just happen to
make a donut error and you know,

980
00:42:28,370 --> 00:42:30,940
as their teacher that they're
super good at apostrophes, for

981
00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:33,150
you're standing there watching
them make that mistake.

982
00:42:33,340 --> 00:42:36,900
You can understand the
temptation to for some people to

983
00:42:36,910 --> 00:42:39,440
be like, ohh, check that one,
which is what happens a lot.

984
00:42:39,450 --> 00:42:41,710
No, it'll tap on the table.
Yeah, this stuff happens all the

985
00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:42,670
time.
And then there's that kind of

986
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,320
more systemic teacher cheating
of of head teachers coming

987
00:42:45,330 --> 00:42:47,190
around and saying, right, do
this, do that.

988
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:48,570
That adult's gonna go stand over
there.

989
00:42:48,580 --> 00:42:50,740
You keep an eye on them.
Two kids, you know, make sure

990
00:42:50,750 --> 00:42:52,510
they get the right answers.
Every time they get something,

991
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,810
you tap on their head.
Yeah, All that kind of cheating

992
00:42:54,820 --> 00:42:56,810
is that that's when it's from
when it's coming from the top

993
00:42:56,820 --> 00:42:58,150
down.
It's like they just want good

994
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,840
data.
Or opening of papers early so

995
00:43:00,850 --> 00:43:03,510
that they can see the content
and sharing, yeah.

996
00:43:03,620 --> 00:43:05,950
Yeah yeah that kind of classic
sort of stuff.

997
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,010
All before the second reason
that mass paper.

998
00:43:08,100 --> 00:43:10,240
Let's let's open it up.
Ohh, what's coming up on this

999
00:43:10,250 --> 00:43:11,730
one Nil.
That's yeah kind of rubbish.

1000
00:43:11,780 --> 00:43:13,490
I I just wanna go to do I'm
gonna bring Dylan on.

1001
00:43:13,500 --> 00:43:15,650
I'm not gonna be too mean cause
he has been silent for ages

1002
00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:18,550
obviously Dylan you're you know
you haven't taught in year six

1003
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,610
so you had your whole career
outside of your six and that

1004
00:43:20,620 --> 00:43:23,550
pressure maybe hasn't impacted
your mind too much.

1005
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,130
But do you find that in other
year groups that there is still

1006
00:43:27,140 --> 00:43:29,610
an element of or at least the
culture?

1007
00:43:29,620 --> 00:43:31,670
I guess because obviously you
got to reflect on other schools

1008
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,620
here.
There's still a culture of

1009
00:43:33,910 --> 00:43:35,990
cheating in this test.
Or do you find it is more

1010
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,680
straightforward?
Like, no, we just want to find

1011
00:43:37,690 --> 00:43:40,280
out what the kids can do.
Is it more relaxed and actually

1012
00:43:40,290 --> 00:43:42,500
meaningful to test in different
year groups?

1013
00:43:43,150 --> 00:43:46,560
Yeah, I I'd say, I'd say the the
pressures are much less than

1014
00:43:46,570 --> 00:43:48,120
what I hear about going on in
year six.

1015
00:43:48,210 --> 00:43:51,740
However, I would, I would like
to have two camps here.

1016
00:43:51,750 --> 00:43:54,160
One is just straight up cheating
and that still happens And I

1017
00:43:54,170 --> 00:43:56,220
know I I've known of that
happening with different

1018
00:43:56,230 --> 00:43:59,320
teachers straight up just
literally saying to children

1019
00:43:59,590 --> 00:44:01,960
rubbing out for them and they've
got to do it again like that.

1020
00:44:01,970 --> 00:44:04,180
That happens whether you're in
year three-year four, year five

1021
00:44:04,330 --> 00:44:06,390
depending on the teacher cause I
think pride comes into it

1022
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,160
sometimes as well.
And you know same thing like

1023
00:44:08,170 --> 00:44:11,460
you're saying, OK, well my kids
can't get a can't get 2 out of

1024
00:44:11,470 --> 00:44:13,120
50.
I've got at least give them six

1025
00:44:13,130 --> 00:44:14,920
because then it looks like I've
done nothing all year.

1026
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,960
And I think we've experienced
sometimes you kind of learn to

1027
00:44:17,970 --> 00:44:21,810
like, no, no, that is what that
child can do and that's OK that

1028
00:44:21,820 --> 00:44:24,310
that is what it is.
I would say that there's a lot

1029
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,090
more.
Instead of cheating, there's a

1030
00:44:27,100 --> 00:44:29,550
lot more inconsistency when it
comes to other year groups.

1031
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,210
I think with the Sats, you have
to follow the instructions that

1032
00:44:32,220 --> 00:44:34,730
they give you in the guidance.
You read it out word for word.

1033
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,010
There's a very clear way that
you should be delivering that.

1034
00:44:37,020 --> 00:44:39,490
And if you don't, then I'd say
that's kind of cheating.

1035
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,090
Whereas with other year groups,
there might be some staff who

1036
00:44:43,100 --> 00:44:45,840
spend 20 minutes before a math
paper in year 4 going over the

1037
00:44:45,850 --> 00:44:49,030
basics, maybe before GPS,
they'll say right class, what's

1038
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,030
an adjective, by the way?
It's this, this and this.

1039
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,610
OK, well, what's a noun?
It's this, this and this and

1040
00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:57,060
kind of like lead your class
down to revising, cramming in

1041
00:44:57,070 --> 00:44:59,660
beforehand.
Whereas I take the approach,

1042
00:44:59,710 --> 00:45:01,860
although I get why they do that
in year six because you don't

1043
00:45:01,870 --> 00:45:03,610
technically know what's coming
up and they want them to do

1044
00:45:03,620 --> 00:45:07,210
their best, I think that's fine.
As a year four teacher, I like

1045
00:45:07,220 --> 00:45:09,720
to just give them the test,
especially when it's early on in

1046
00:45:09,730 --> 00:45:12,480
the year or halfway through the
year because I don't want them

1047
00:45:12,490 --> 00:45:15,440
to have only circled the
adjective because I literally 5

1048
00:45:15,450 --> 00:45:20,220
seconds before say ohh.
I know an adjective is now

1049
00:45:20,230 --> 00:45:22,000
because Mr. Price just told me.
I circle it.

1050
00:45:22,010 --> 00:45:24,030
I get the answer right?
There's an inform, my planning

1051
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,160
doesn't inform my kind of going
on from there.

1052
00:45:27,170 --> 00:45:29,470
I don't know.
So I would say there's

1053
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,460
definitely 2 camps.
Cheating still happens, but I

1054
00:45:32,470 --> 00:45:35,250
think we have a problem in
general with consistency and I

1055
00:45:35,260 --> 00:45:37,040
don't know.
What do you guys think about

1056
00:45:37,050 --> 00:45:40,070
testing?
Not as a way to judge people and

1057
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,550
say, OK, we know the Sats is to
see how the kids are getting on

1058
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:46,590
key stage two, but how useful do
you think testing is when it

1059
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:51,690
comes to actually, I don't know,
helping and informing your

1060
00:45:51,700 --> 00:45:53,090
teaching?
Do you think there's a bit of a

1061
00:45:53,100 --> 00:45:54,670
disparity there or what do you
think?

1062
00:45:56,810 --> 00:45:58,980
But I think it mainly.
Just Sophie come in as well.

1063
00:45:58,990 --> 00:46:03,250
Yeah.
So I, I, I I think testing is so

1064
00:46:03,260 --> 00:46:06,080
useful when I can make a gap
analysis at the end of it.

1065
00:46:06,090 --> 00:46:08,170
That's basically it.
As long as I can make a gap

1066
00:46:08,180 --> 00:46:10,650
analysis and it informs my
teaching, then it's useful.

1067
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,660
If it's if it's solely for
another reason it might as well

1068
00:46:14,670 --> 00:46:19,500
not happen cause what I what I
don't need to do really is test

1069
00:46:19,510 --> 00:46:23,760
my kids 5 or 6 * a year.
I don't need to do that.

1070
00:46:23,830 --> 00:46:27,060
Honestly once or twice is is
more than enough to make sure

1071
00:46:27,070 --> 00:46:29,420
that I'm planning along the
right lines because what I what

1072
00:46:29,430 --> 00:46:32,280
I can do is use the six hours a
day that I'm with the kids to

1073
00:46:32,290 --> 00:46:35,140
formatively pick up kind of
where they are at.

1074
00:46:35,150 --> 00:46:36,480
Like I think that is generally
enough.

1075
00:46:36,490 --> 00:46:38,870
If if tests were gone, I'm
pretty confident to be honest

1076
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,220
with you that I could still do
my job pretty accurately not

1077
00:46:42,230 --> 00:46:43,980
having had any test data across
the year.

1078
00:46:43,990 --> 00:46:48,420
But I do think a gap analysis
can lead to insights that maybe

1079
00:46:48,430 --> 00:46:49,690
you might have missed in the
classroom.

1080
00:46:49,700 --> 00:46:51,080
I don't know what you think
about that, Sophie.

1081
00:46:51,500 --> 00:46:53,610
No, I exactly what you said.
I agree.

1082
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:55,670
Which kind of leads me into
something potentially

1083
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,410
controversial.
I don't know how you feel about

1084
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:02,840
when key stage 1 tests were in
place and obviously they're

1085
00:47:02,850 --> 00:47:07,660
internally marked and how that
can sometimes lead to

1086
00:47:07,930 --> 00:47:12,580
potentially potentially
sometimes inflated data that we

1087
00:47:12,590 --> 00:47:16,300
then have to build on.
And then it was like our school

1088
00:47:16,310 --> 00:47:18,380
personally, we're not using them
now anymore.

1089
00:47:18,830 --> 00:47:21,900
But I know that's been tricky in
the past, especially with

1090
00:47:21,910 --> 00:47:25,570
friends and other schools that
have sometimes again performance

1091
00:47:25,580 --> 00:47:27,910
management or some sort of
target based on key stage one

1092
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,940
data which has been marked by
the teachers.

1093
00:47:31,110 --> 00:47:33,780
And I'm sure you know we like to
think we're really fair, but if

1094
00:47:33,790 --> 00:47:36,060
we were to mark our own SATS
papers, I'm sure they'd come out

1095
00:47:36,070 --> 00:47:38,150
higher than if they're marked
with they marked by other

1096
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,600
people.
But have you?

1097
00:47:40,610 --> 00:47:43,240
Have you found that also
improved with in the past?

1098
00:47:43,370 --> 00:47:45,610
Of course it is, yeah.
And and I think I think you get

1099
00:47:45,620 --> 00:47:46,980
the same from key stage
teachers.

1100
00:47:46,990 --> 00:47:49,510
They they I've, I've spoken to
Keith and three teachers and

1101
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,600
they all they unanimously say
ohh bloody key stage two days.

1102
00:47:53,610 --> 00:47:55,340
It's always wrong.
It's always inflated.

1103
00:47:55,390 --> 00:47:58,880
Yeah and it is because it is
because we do cram.

1104
00:47:58,940 --> 00:48:00,420
Yeah.
A bunch of pointless knowledge

1105
00:48:00,430 --> 00:48:02,000
into these kids that they don't
care about.

1106
00:48:02,070 --> 00:48:03,440
Yeah.
Cram it in.

1107
00:48:03,510 --> 00:48:05,420
Yeah.
Do the Sats and then no one

1108
00:48:05,430 --> 00:48:06,600
talks about it again.
Yeah.

1109
00:48:06,610 --> 00:48:07,840
For that stuff.
Yeah.

1110
00:48:07,890 --> 00:48:10,300
And that kind of leads me onto
another point really because

1111
00:48:10,530 --> 00:48:13,420
like what's your opinion on post
sats?

1112
00:48:13,470 --> 00:48:15,340
No more mass in English.
Bye bye.

1113
00:48:15,350 --> 00:48:17,760
That's gone out the window
because that happens a lot in

1114
00:48:17,770 --> 00:48:19,270
schools.
I know it's tricky, isn't it?

1115
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:24,170
I tend to find, again from just
seeing online, the schools that

1116
00:48:24,260 --> 00:48:26,720
do solely maths and English
before Sats are then the ones

1117
00:48:26,730 --> 00:48:27,940
that don't do it at all after
Sats.

1118
00:48:27,950 --> 00:48:30,570
And they use that to fit in all
the art PE and the DT that they

1119
00:48:30,580 --> 00:48:32,770
didn't do.
Which, yeah, great, the kids

1120
00:48:32,780 --> 00:48:35,940
need that at some point.
But that is partly the reason I

1121
00:48:35,950 --> 00:48:39,170
think why kids end up going to
secondary school who have maybe

1122
00:48:39,180 --> 00:48:41,000
passed a math Sats paper.
But they can't do their times

1123
00:48:41,010 --> 00:48:43,240
tables when they get there.
Because not only have they got

1124
00:48:43,250 --> 00:48:46,370
the six weeks of summer which
they inevitably gonna lose stuff

1125
00:48:46,380 --> 00:48:48,970
over that time, but they're
going to a new environment which

1126
00:48:48,980 --> 00:48:51,270
means they inevitably forget
things because they're just

1127
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:52,570
overwhelmed by the new
environment.

1128
00:48:52,690 --> 00:48:55,130
They've also not covered it
since the Sats paper.

1129
00:48:55,220 --> 00:48:58,630
I just think it it shows.
I think it models the shows the

1130
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,130
wrong message to the children
that you're just doing maths for

1131
00:49:01,140 --> 00:49:02,530
a test.
I say maths.

1132
00:49:02,540 --> 00:49:05,270
I know obviously English as well
but maths seems to be the key

1133
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,790
one that people drop off.
You're just teaching it for the

1134
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:09,890
test rather than actually this
is an important life skill.

1135
00:49:09,900 --> 00:49:11,450
This is important for secondary
school.

1136
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,010
So I'm pro carrying on with your
basset.

1137
00:49:15,020 --> 00:49:16,920
I mean, I'm gonna have to, I
won't have covered half the

1138
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,830
stuff that I need to cover in
the Year 6 curriculum by SAT.

1139
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,560
So I'm going to have to cover
just to cover the curriculum.

1140
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,810
But I really personally don't
like it when people are just

1141
00:49:25,820 --> 00:49:28,340
like, oh, I'm just going to
print a roller coaster challenge

1142
00:49:28,350 --> 00:49:31,650
off Twinkle and they can do that
for six weeks and like yes,

1143
00:49:31,660 --> 00:49:33,770
that's good, It's good to
practise their math skills, but

1144
00:49:33,780 --> 00:49:37,160
less maybe, you know, continue
plugging the the adding and

1145
00:49:37,170 --> 00:49:40,320
subtracting vibe as well,
because of course that's going

1146
00:49:40,330 --> 00:49:43,430
to be out the window.
I'm just gonna make a shout out

1147
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:45,300
by the way to to your little boy
in the background.

1148
00:49:45,310 --> 00:49:47,610
Sounds like I'm so sorry.
I just.

1149
00:49:47,620 --> 00:49:48,910
I'm panicking.
Don't worry about.

1150
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,850
It my mum's barking, it sounds
like a great time but a little

1151
00:49:51,860 --> 00:49:53,590
noisy so.
No, it's all good.

1152
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:55,700
We never did hear hear the
sounds of a happy child in the

1153
00:49:55,710 --> 00:49:57,270
background.
What more would you want from a

1154
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,130
teacher podcast today?
Exactly.

1155
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:04,100
Anyway, Dylan, I'm gonna bring
you back in, Mr Mr Lagging

1156
00:50:04,110 --> 00:50:06,210
behind us.
We had him not having control

1157
00:50:06,220 --> 00:50:07,050
isn't.
It isn't.

1158
00:50:07,060 --> 00:50:08,780
It is.
Very strange.

1159
00:50:08,790 --> 00:50:10,800
Very, very strange.
Dylan, did you want to add

1160
00:50:10,810 --> 00:50:14,060
anything at all to cheating in
the Sats before we move on to a

1161
00:50:14,070 --> 00:50:17,090
different point?
Yeah, I suppose.

1162
00:50:17,100 --> 00:50:21,030
I think again from my point of
view, I you you, you probably

1163
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,370
know what I'm like by now.
I it's stuff does roll me up.

1164
00:50:23,380 --> 00:50:25,850
It does get me annoyed.
And I've been listening to you

1165
00:50:25,860 --> 00:50:29,580
talking about it.
And I think it's so easy for me

1166
00:50:29,590 --> 00:50:31,590
because I've got the perspective
of not being in year six.

1167
00:50:31,860 --> 00:50:34,240
And I want you to like maybe
knock me down a peg, both of

1168
00:50:34,250 --> 00:50:35,090
you.
OK?

1169
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:40,510
Because I think having not
taught year six before, I do not

1170
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,450
understand how people get drawn
into thinking cheating is ever

1171
00:50:43,460 --> 00:50:45,930
OK.
I I because I I look at it and I

1172
00:50:45,940 --> 00:50:48,450
just think, OK, well if I was in
year six, I would just say no

1173
00:50:48,530 --> 00:50:51,130
and then if someone cheated, I
would just say don't cheat,

1174
00:50:51,140 --> 00:50:54,950
that's cheating and I I'm gonna
knock me down.

1175
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,260
Please, like reply to me here
and tell me how I'm completely

1176
00:50:57,270 --> 00:50:59,530
wrong.
But I never ever.

1177
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:03,460
I can't think of a situation
where I wouldn't challenge it

1178
00:51:03,470 --> 00:51:07,390
and maybe when I was an ECT I
wouldn't have an idea just gone

1179
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,290
down the road.
Oh yeah, I've got to do it.

1180
00:51:09,300 --> 00:51:12,130
Please.
As experienced teachers I don't

1181
00:51:12,140 --> 00:51:16,070
really ever understand or really
truly accept when people just

1182
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,570
say ohh, it's just a game and I
know Hayden you said that

1183
00:51:18,580 --> 00:51:21,350
yourself and I've multiple times
said to you well it's not though

1184
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,270
is it Cause it's child's
education and you are just

1185
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,700
cheating.
I I still I'm I'm not getting

1186
00:51:25,710 --> 00:51:27,880
past that point.
So if please come back to me and

1187
00:51:27,890 --> 00:51:29,890
tell me that I'm wrong because
that's where I still see it.

1188
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,470
I think personally I mean you'll
never know if I'm lying.

1189
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,270
But I can tell you now, I've
never cheated because I've

1190
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,340
worked in schools that have been
realistic with Sats results so

1191
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:44,980
but I can empathise with people
that have because I put very

1192
00:51:44,990 --> 00:51:46,460
little faith in the system
anyway.

1193
00:51:46,470 --> 00:51:48,610
I don't believe that it
generates a true reflection of

1194
00:51:48,620 --> 00:51:50,660
the children's ability.
I don't believe it generates a

1195
00:51:50,670 --> 00:51:52,850
true reflection of the school or
the teaching ability.

1196
00:51:53,230 --> 00:51:58,780
If it did I would be a lot more
anti people cheating because you

1197
00:51:58,790 --> 00:52:02,820
are falsifying data.
I think the data is falsified

1198
00:52:02,830 --> 00:52:06,690
anyway in so many other ways
that actually if a teacher feels

1199
00:52:06,700 --> 00:52:09,780
so much pressure from above
because of their pays dependent

1200
00:52:09,790 --> 00:52:13,620
on it or because I don't know
pressure that their school look

1201
00:52:13,630 --> 00:52:15,560
bad if they get whatever
pressure they're under.

1202
00:52:15,570 --> 00:52:18,160
Because you only ever do it
cause you're under pressure and

1203
00:52:18,170 --> 00:52:21,830
you you know you're you're
pointing at a a question again

1204
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,790
or you're reading a word you're
not supposed to read or you're

1205
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,230
saying check this, I can
empathise with that.

1206
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,630
I'm not saying you know it's a
grey area.

1207
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,990
I think there are things that
are clearly wrong like opening

1208
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:35,970
the paper OK all cheating is
wrong sorry but clearly more

1209
00:52:35,980 --> 00:52:38,890
wrong if we can categorise it.
Things like opening the papers

1210
00:52:38,900 --> 00:52:42,270
up early and telling kids what
are on it, that's clearly unfair

1211
00:52:42,620 --> 00:52:45,830
and but I just I just saying I
do empathise with people that

1212
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,470
perhaps they feel pushed to do
those kind of.

1213
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,290
Things an emotional reaction
maybe in the moment rather than

1214
00:52:51,300 --> 00:52:53,850
a redetermined I'm going to open
these papers and cheat but

1215
00:52:53,860 --> 00:52:56,420
that's a bit different and and
usually that does come from top

1216
00:52:56,430 --> 00:52:57,340
down.
I think that pressure.

1217
00:52:57,350 --> 00:53:00,660
Yeah, I I fully agree that that
emotional empathy I can have for

1218
00:53:00,670 --> 00:53:02,200
people.
Yeah, it's tricky because I

1219
00:53:02,210 --> 00:53:05,460
know, like our schools who are
assumingly very fair doing

1220
00:53:05,470 --> 00:53:07,860
things right are gonna be
compared against schools that

1221
00:53:07,990 --> 00:53:10,900
are probably could be cheating
and schools that really are

1222
00:53:10,910 --> 00:53:13,260
cheating and they're going to
look like they're really amazing

1223
00:53:13,270 --> 00:53:15,400
schools and we're not if their
data is better.

1224
00:53:15,450 --> 00:53:19,100
But you know, that's just all
going to use the storytellers

1225
00:53:19,110 --> 00:53:21,340
nature of the game, isn't it?
Sorry, that's just it.

1226
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:26,090
It's just how these things, how
these things work and if I wish

1227
00:53:26,100 --> 00:53:32,600
just people knew how not like
inaccurate the actual data is

1228
00:53:32,610 --> 00:53:35,220
and how much pressure some
people are under.

1229
00:53:35,650 --> 00:53:39,140
It just makes the whole system
not a level playing field.

1230
00:53:39,210 --> 00:53:42,000
As well like I said earlier even
with the the the fact that keeps

1231
00:53:42,170 --> 00:53:45,240
the fact that most secondary
schools just go ohh let's load

1232
00:53:45,250 --> 00:53:47,240
of rubbish this data we just
retest them at the start of

1233
00:53:47,250 --> 00:53:50,840
seven exactly it just it it it
brings me down a peg and like I

1234
00:53:50,850 --> 00:53:52,170
I guess this is the answer
you're looking for.

1235
00:53:52,180 --> 00:53:56,340
Maybe Dylan it makes me not care
as much Yeah ohh no.

1236
00:53:56,350 --> 00:54:00,040
Some teachers felt really
pressured to to get their kids

1237
00:54:00,050 --> 00:54:02,660
in the moment show the knowledge
that they have when they've

1238
00:54:02,670 --> 00:54:04,910
noticed they weren't doing it.
That kind of low level cheating.

1239
00:54:05,310 --> 00:54:09,010
It may speak ohh they don't do
it but am I gonna I'm not gonna

1240
00:54:09,020 --> 00:54:10,320
lose Maybe I'm not that mad
about it.

1241
00:54:10,330 --> 00:54:12,740
I understand why someone might
have did that in the moment.

1242
00:54:12,750 --> 00:54:15,500
And you know what he said?
He said free teachers don't give

1243
00:54:15,510 --> 00:54:19,830
a crap anyway.
So yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's a

1244
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:21,340
it's a hard one.
But when you hear about head

1245
00:54:21,350 --> 00:54:23,480
teachers systemically doing it,
that that riles me, right?

1246
00:54:23,660 --> 00:54:25,290
Yeah.
No, you're doing it for nothing

1247
00:54:25,300 --> 00:54:27,850
but selfish Jane now.
Like I don't care what you want.

1248
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:30,720
Yeah.
Just think if Danny wanted to

1249
00:54:30,730 --> 00:54:32,350
come in that way, that's
alright.

1250
00:54:33,070 --> 00:54:34,880
I yeah, yeah.
I'm sorry.

1251
00:54:34,890 --> 00:54:37,500
Listen, I I I want to, but I'm
really scared to talk.

1252
00:54:37,510 --> 00:54:38,800
So I'm just gonna come in very
quickly now.

1253
00:54:38,810 --> 00:54:39,310
Again.
Yeah.

1254
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:43,170
I'm gonna come back because I
think I I don't think that I

1255
00:54:43,180 --> 00:54:45,760
don't think I'm being fair.
So I'm gonna like be selfish,

1256
00:54:45,770 --> 00:54:49,600
like have a look at myself here
because my gut instinct is what

1257
00:54:49,610 --> 00:54:51,860
I said earlier.
But I absolutely don't think

1258
00:54:51,870 --> 00:54:54,400
it's fair when it comes down to
people's pay and it comes down

1259
00:54:54,410 --> 00:54:57,340
from the top down, and I know
that I'm oversimplifying it

1260
00:54:57,350 --> 00:54:59,500
massively.
I think that the overarching

1261
00:54:59,510 --> 00:55:04,370
point I suppose is that I I see
the role of a teacher in that

1262
00:55:04,380 --> 00:55:08,050
respect is to try and fight
against it a little bit, at

1263
00:55:08,060 --> 00:55:11,250
least, because it's the first
ball.

1264
00:55:11,300 --> 00:55:13,870
That's the 1st way we can get
the ball rolling, rather to kind

1265
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:17,260
of go against all of the
pressure we make up ourselves.

1266
00:55:17,270 --> 00:55:20,270
Because to me, Sats, the
pressure around Sats is invented

1267
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:22,810
by by us as teachers.
It's invented by us.

1268
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,690
Yes, the system is broken and we
we're not in the government.

1269
00:55:25,700 --> 00:55:29,090
We can't abolish Sats and change
it and I don't think we should

1270
00:55:29,100 --> 00:55:30,730
abolish Sats.
So like I said earlier, I think

1271
00:55:30,740 --> 00:55:35,460
it's good test children, but the
the, the, the ongoing pressure

1272
00:55:35,470 --> 00:55:39,640
and worries is kind of
self-inflicted in part by

1273
00:55:39,690 --> 00:55:43,310
teachers having this importance
on it and and pushing themselves

1274
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:47,000
to say OK, we did reach 90%
across the board combined last

1275
00:55:47,010 --> 00:55:49,280
year.
We didn't, but we did because I

1276
00:55:49,290 --> 00:55:52,020
cheated a little bit and I
pushed the boat a little bit.

1277
00:55:52,090 --> 00:55:55,300
But guess what, Next year if I
don't hit that again, I'm ruined

1278
00:55:55,310 --> 00:55:58,040
even more.
So I think we have to kind of

1279
00:55:58,050 --> 00:56:01,120
break the wheel.
We have to like destroy it now,

1280
00:56:01,310 --> 00:56:04,170
almost reset everything, just
let the kids do the test and

1281
00:56:04,180 --> 00:56:06,290
just go from there and be more
accepting that.

1282
00:56:06,300 --> 00:56:07,990
Do you know what cohorts are
different?

1283
00:56:08,060 --> 00:56:10,950
We've had two cohorts in our
school one year after the other.

1284
00:56:11,060 --> 00:56:14,010
Well, we got a combined score in
the 90s and we got a combined

1285
00:56:14,020 --> 00:56:16,630
score in the 70s.
That looks terrible.

1286
00:56:16,700 --> 00:56:19,110
But do you know what it does say
They've had the exact same

1287
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,210
education with the exact same
teachers, and their cohort was

1288
00:56:22,220 --> 00:56:24,420
20% different, and that should
be OK.

1289
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,460
Can I disagree with you really
slightly on something you just

1290
00:56:27,470 --> 00:56:31,420
said controversially?
I kind of seen equivalence in

1291
00:56:31,430 --> 00:56:36,240
like the teacher strikes thing
that really collectively we

1292
00:56:36,250 --> 00:56:39,880
should all be striking to make a
point and that would be the best

1293
00:56:39,890 --> 00:56:42,660
thing for everyone.
But on an individual level,

1294
00:56:42,890 --> 00:56:45,500
because you're losing pay, I
wouldn't expect anyone to

1295
00:56:45,510 --> 00:56:49,670
individually, but whatever the
opposite of benefit is that you

1296
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:53,420
like to have a detriment to
themselves for the greater good.

1297
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:54,950
And I kind of see like that for
the sets.

1298
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,710
I totally agree with you that we
should collectively fight

1299
00:56:57,720 --> 00:57:00,530
against the system, but we're
not collectively doing that.

1300
00:57:00,540 --> 00:57:03,530
And so it's hard to say to one
teacher whose pay is perhaps

1301
00:57:03,540 --> 00:57:07,150
dependent on that you really
need to make a sacrifice for the

1302
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,590
greater good of the system
because that's not all on them.

1303
00:57:09,660 --> 00:57:11,390
So I do agree with you, but I
think that's.

1304
00:57:11,860 --> 00:57:15,550
I think I overall still don't
agree just because of the basis

1305
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:19,160
of positions, that certainty,
yeah, which does mean we'll

1306
00:57:19,170 --> 00:57:21,050
never get there.
I also realise that we're never

1307
00:57:21,060 --> 00:57:23,480
gonna get if we don't all
collectively do something.

1308
00:57:23,550 --> 00:57:27,460
But it's like I would love all
the parents in one school one

1309
00:57:27,470 --> 00:57:30,660
year to just boycott Sats to see
what would happen if all parents

1310
00:57:30,670 --> 00:57:33,360
said I don't want my children to
sit Sats this year, what would

1311
00:57:33,370 --> 00:57:37,380
actually happen and how amazing
would that be just to see But

1312
00:57:37,390 --> 00:57:39,620
that obviously wouldn't because
not all parents are going to get

1313
00:57:39,630 --> 00:57:41,150
together to do that.
So.

1314
00:57:42,660 --> 00:57:44,590
Yeah, that's really, it's really
interesting point, Dylan.

1315
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:45,770
Do you wanna come back in with
that?

1316
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,450
Yeah no, I think I I I
completely understand it because

1317
00:57:49,460 --> 00:57:52,870
we basically this.
I'm coming it from an idealistic

1318
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,830
point of view and I'm I'm
someone sometimes who who very

1319
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:59,190
much argues against being
idealistic in certain reason and

1320
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:00,990
certain realms.
So it's kind of contradictory

1321
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:02,690
for me to suddenly become
idealistic here.

1322
00:58:02,700 --> 00:58:05,730
But I think the big reason why I
still am is because I'm not in

1323
00:58:05,740 --> 00:58:07,370
year 6.
So it's very easy for me to do

1324
00:58:07,380 --> 00:58:10,370
idealistic until I've lived it.
I also think that what you said

1325
00:58:10,380 --> 00:58:14,110
about the the strikes is bang on
and Hayden and I have locked

1326
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:17,020
heads on this nonstop because
similarly to me saying we need

1327
00:58:17,030 --> 00:58:19,960
to break the wheel and not do
all this in year six, I've been

1328
00:58:19,970 --> 00:58:22,590
the person to say guys, we need
to go on strike because it's the

1329
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,310
only way of changing anything.
But when someone does turn

1330
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,970
around to me and say, well I am
a single mum and if I go and

1331
00:58:27,980 --> 00:58:30,650
strike then actually my kids
can't do swimming club this

1332
00:58:30,660 --> 00:58:33,450
month because I won't be able to
afford it, then I'm like, Oh my

1333
00:58:38,770 --> 00:58:41,610
It's it's the it's the personal
against the group.

1334
00:58:41,620 --> 00:58:44,780
And it's it's like when someone
says not gonna vote in the

1335
00:58:44,790 --> 00:58:47,870
general election because in
their constituency, you know,

1336
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:49,550
it's thousands of votes
different.

1337
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:51,640
They're just a safe seat for
like, let's say it's a safe seat

1338
00:58:51,650 --> 00:58:54,090
for the Conservatives.
Well, I'm not gonna vote because

1339
00:58:54,180 --> 00:58:56,010
it won't make a difference.
Well, do you know what?

1340
00:58:56,020 --> 00:58:57,370
It actually won't make a
difference.

1341
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,010
But me as an idealist, I'd say
no, you should vote.

1342
00:59:00,020 --> 00:59:02,210
Of course you should.
But you know, actually it's OK

1343
00:59:02,220 --> 00:59:04,710
sometimes to say, but it won't
make a difference though.

1344
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:06,350
So guess what?
It doesn't actually matter.

1345
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:08,270
So I completely get where you're
coming from.

1346
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:13,690
Yeah, it's a very, very hard
argument to to go against.

1347
00:59:13,700 --> 00:59:16,010
Really.
You can see how what do you say

1348
00:59:16,020 --> 00:59:17,590
when someone says won't make a
difference, but do it.

1349
00:59:18,330 --> 00:59:21,360
Yeah, very very, very tricky.
Anyway I've got one one last

1350
00:59:21,370 --> 00:59:23,280
question because we've been
trying for a long time.

1351
00:59:23,290 --> 00:59:25,220
We might even split this episode
into two.

1352
00:59:25,230 --> 00:59:27,240
I don't know if you're listening
to this and we've already split

1353
00:59:27,250 --> 00:59:29,580
it into two, then you know why
Cause we spoke courageous.

1354
00:59:30,350 --> 00:59:33,330
But one one last thing about
boosters because right at the

1355
00:59:33,340 --> 00:59:36,270
start of the conversation you
did kind of imply that you're

1356
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,040
that you're not really an
advocate of like Easter boosters

1357
00:59:39,050 --> 00:59:41,720
and general boosters.
I guess like in when people take

1358
00:59:41,730 --> 00:59:44,610
away after doing curriculum time
to do more math and English to

1359
00:59:44,620 --> 00:59:47,640
get ready for the SAS, is what
I'm implying by boosters.

1360
00:59:49,110 --> 00:59:51,820
First of all, just yeah, could
you just clarify your opinion

1361
00:59:51,830 --> 00:59:55,320
and just on boosters in general
if whether you like them or you

1362
00:59:55,330 --> 00:59:57,410
don't like them?
And also I just wanna separate

1363
00:59:57,420 --> 01:00:00,720
that a little bit from revision
though, OK, I don't think

1364
01:00:00,730 --> 01:00:03,060
revision necessarily is a bad
thing.

1365
01:00:03,390 --> 01:00:07,280
Yeah, but perhaps perhaps in my
opinion on boosters is that I

1366
01:00:07,290 --> 01:00:08,940
don't like it taking the
curriculum.

1367
01:00:08,950 --> 01:00:11,540
What's your view on getting
ready for Sats?

1368
01:00:12,010 --> 01:00:18,530
So I personally, I'm against
anything outside a lot outside

1369
01:00:18,540 --> 01:00:21,770
of what you would usually do for
maths and English to prep for

1370
01:00:21,780 --> 01:00:24,630
Sats, particularly if it's
outside of school time.

1371
01:00:25,870 --> 01:00:27,130
Eight.
I'm personally against that.

1372
01:00:27,140 --> 01:00:31,950
I just think it sends the wrong
message to children that it only

1373
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:33,450
happened.
I mean I had this discussion on

1374
01:00:33,460 --> 01:00:35,650
Facebook and some people say we
do it in every year group.

1375
01:00:35,660 --> 01:00:37,550
Like well fine if you took in
every year group and its

1376
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:40,570
standard routine, but if you're
just doing it in Sats, just do

1377
01:00:40,580 --> 01:00:43,230
it in year six.
Surely that sends the message

1378
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:45,960
that you're you're you only need
this for Sats.

1379
01:00:45,970 --> 01:00:48,570
We don't need it in any other
year group and we need to

1380
01:00:48,580 --> 01:00:50,710
suddenly cram all this extra
stuff because we haven't prepped

1381
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:52,270
you enough before.
I know I'm going to ruffle

1382
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:54,130
feathers by saying that, but
that is the message that seems

1383
01:00:54,140 --> 01:00:56,110
to get across.
Then you have people saying,

1384
01:00:56,540 --> 01:00:59,320
well, my kids enjoy it though.
Well, I'm sure they do enjoy it

1385
01:00:59,330 --> 01:01:02,140
because you know, it's it's
novel to be in school when

1386
01:01:02,150 --> 01:01:03,350
you're not supposed to be in
school.

1387
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:07,180
I'm sure the parents like it
because it's free childcare, but

1388
01:01:07,370 --> 01:01:09,600
some a lot of the time the
teachers aren't paid, they're

1389
01:01:09,610 --> 01:01:12,820
pressured into doing it.
I personally, although this sort

1390
01:01:12,830 --> 01:01:14,960
of contradicts what saying
before, I personally wouldn't do

1391
01:01:14,970 --> 01:01:17,820
it even if I was offered money.
Although again like I said

1392
01:01:17,830 --> 01:01:20,440
before, I totally understand why
people would do it if they were

1393
01:01:20,450 --> 01:01:22,950
being paid because we could all
use the money.

1394
01:01:23,070 --> 01:01:27,970
I just personally wouldn't.
And yeah, I I just, I think you

1395
01:01:27,980 --> 01:01:29,720
should be able.
Whatever kids can achieve in

1396
01:01:29,730 --> 01:01:32,710
their maths and English time in
their normal school hours is a

1397
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:34,550
true reflection of what they can
do in Sats.

1398
01:01:34,660 --> 01:01:38,670
And you could almost argue it's
another form, maybe not of

1399
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:41,260
cheating but of twisting the
data a lot.

1400
01:01:41,270 --> 01:01:43,770
Because if you have done maths
and English over and over again

1401
01:01:43,780 --> 01:01:46,130
in the school and outside of
school and some schools have

1402
01:01:46,140 --> 01:01:48,550
just done it in there a lot of
time, they're obviously going to

1403
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:50,530
do better on the Saturday
because it's been drilled into

1404
01:01:50,540 --> 01:01:54,620
them.
So that is my non sitting on the

1405
01:01:54,630 --> 01:01:57,330
fence opinion of boosters.
No, that's fair enough.

1406
01:01:57,340 --> 01:01:59,310
It's sort of lines up with kind
of what we've said in the past.

1407
01:01:59,380 --> 01:02:01,300
Well, I think it's made a really
interesting point.

1408
01:02:01,310 --> 01:02:05,140
They got me thinking about
comparisons and how we do it is

1409
01:02:05,190 --> 01:02:07,400
in a comparative affair,
comparative test, right.

1410
01:02:07,410 --> 01:02:09,930
In science do you have certain
variables that have to be the

1411
01:02:09,940 --> 01:02:10,760
same, right?
And.

1412
01:02:10,810 --> 01:02:12,930
And when we when we take the
approach of comparing children

1413
01:02:12,940 --> 01:02:16,500
across the country of SAS, are
we all just seem to we just kind

1414
01:02:16,510 --> 01:02:19,380
of ignore that schools can teach
as much or little English and

1415
01:02:19,390 --> 01:02:21,300
maths as we want.
Yeah, it's a bit weird, isn't

1416
01:02:21,310 --> 01:02:23,500
it, You'd think in a proper test
that would be standardised.

1417
01:02:23,510 --> 01:02:25,030
No, no.
In primary school you have 5

1418
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:27,170
hours of maths a week and you
have 5 hours English.

1419
01:02:27,180 --> 01:02:29,060
Everyone has the same thing.
So it's a bit more of a fair

1420
01:02:29,070 --> 01:02:30,710
test.
We can compare the ability of

1421
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:32,650
children because like you said,
if we've got one school that are

1422
01:02:32,660 --> 01:02:35,400
doing tonnes and tonnes and
tonnes of extra stuff after

1423
01:02:35,410 --> 01:02:38,890
school and before school and
through every single half term

1424
01:02:38,900 --> 01:02:41,210
to catch these kids up, and then
they say, wow, look how much

1425
01:02:41,220 --> 01:02:43,250
smarter our kids are.
It's like, well yeah, you have

1426
01:02:43,260 --> 01:02:46,280
objectively done a tonne more
lessons with them than other

1427
01:02:46,290 --> 01:02:47,610
schools.
So like, is that a fair

1428
01:02:47,620 --> 01:02:48,630
comparison?
Not just.

1429
01:02:49,020 --> 01:02:52,250
Interest Should it be, should it
be regulated a bit more?

1430
01:02:52,260 --> 01:02:54,190
I mean that would be so
difficult to do, yeah?

1431
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:58,130
Imagine if they said you're only
allowed to teach with the maths,

1432
01:02:58,140 --> 01:03:00,970
be 200 hours of maths in year
six or something.

1433
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:02,440
Can you imagine?
Yeah.

1434
01:03:02,450 --> 01:03:03,640
Like, yeah.
And I don't necessarily think

1435
01:03:03,650 --> 01:03:06,730
that's a good idea, but no, it's
just, it does just, I guess just

1436
01:03:06,740 --> 01:03:09,810
highlights another floor in the
whole comparative league table

1437
01:03:09,870 --> 01:03:11,480
rubbish that we do with the
schools.

1438
01:03:11,650 --> 01:03:14,090
So my, my last last little
question that sort of linked to

1439
01:03:14,100 --> 01:03:16,700
that is, is just, yeah, what's
your opinion on revision?

1440
01:03:16,710 --> 01:03:18,890
Because I know that I know that
you're quite an advocate of

1441
01:03:18,900 --> 01:03:21,610
learning by questions, which is
a tool of, you know, if you're

1442
01:03:21,620 --> 01:03:22,880
not aware of it, it's a really
good tool.

1443
01:03:22,890 --> 01:03:25,220
Please go and Google it like we
think it's great as well.

1444
01:03:25,470 --> 01:03:28,580
And I know you recently put a
post up on Facebook, an article

1445
01:03:28,590 --> 01:03:32,250
I presume that you wrote or came
through my questions of top ten

1446
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:34,350
common misconceptions.
People are making maths and I

1447
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:37,110
presume people are supposed to
be using that to to kind of

1448
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:40,510
tackle things that kids
typically get wrong to help them

1449
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:42,490
sort of in their Sats and
revision.

1450
01:03:42,500 --> 01:03:45,900
So it do you know, do you have a
slightly different opinion on

1451
01:03:45,910 --> 01:03:48,020
revision?
And if and if you do, how can we

1452
01:03:48,030 --> 01:03:50,560
tackle revision at school that
isn't in the form of Easter

1453
01:03:50,570 --> 01:03:52,520
boosters and things like that,
legitimately?

1454
01:03:53,090 --> 01:03:55,720
I do, because I see revision as
well.

1455
01:03:55,730 --> 01:03:58,430
Every year group does, really,
but maybe a bit more in year six

1456
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:01,160
because every year group's going
to revisit content, hopefully so

1457
01:04:01,170 --> 01:04:02,340
that their children understand
it.

1458
01:04:02,350 --> 01:04:05,780
Revision is essentially
revisiting content, but we

1459
01:04:05,790 --> 01:04:09,200
perhaps do it for a few more
lessons than other year groups

1460
01:04:09,210 --> 01:04:11,960
do because we know there's going
to be a fairly high stakes test

1461
01:04:11,970 --> 01:04:14,540
on it.
So rather than I tend to save,

1462
01:04:14,550 --> 01:04:18,720
try and save my revision until
after Easter or if possible a

1463
01:04:18,730 --> 01:04:22,580
week or two before Sats and just
teach new content or cover the

1464
01:04:22,590 --> 01:04:25,760
curriculum until then and then
use the last couple of weeks to

1465
01:04:25,770 --> 01:04:28,130
just recover the content that
they've already done because

1466
01:04:28,140 --> 01:04:31,100
some of it they haven't spent
long on since maybe October or

1467
01:04:31,110 --> 01:04:32,980
November, so they just need to
revisit again.

1468
01:04:33,750 --> 01:04:36,510
So to me that's that's very
different to boosters because

1469
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:40,120
you are doing it during their
normal maths or English time and

1470
01:04:40,130 --> 01:04:43,220
you can make it like you say.
We do have to do an element of

1471
01:04:43,230 --> 01:04:45,260
test technique which you can fit
in with revision.

1472
01:04:45,270 --> 01:04:49,040
So the things I love doing are
the correct test paper things.

1473
01:04:49,050 --> 01:04:51,920
You know, you fill out a test
paper with all the common

1474
01:04:51,930 --> 01:04:53,650
misconceptions that your class
have.

1475
01:04:53,660 --> 01:04:55,320
You and your class have to be
the teacher.

1476
01:04:55,410 --> 01:04:57,780
I mean, that's a great way of
teaching test technique and

1477
01:04:58,030 --> 01:05:01,210
revising content.
That's the kids don't think that

1478
01:05:01,220 --> 01:05:03,410
they're learning because they
just love the fact that they're

1479
01:05:03,420 --> 01:05:06,330
pretending to be a teacher.
And so I think there's loads of

1480
01:05:06,340 --> 01:05:07,620
different ways of making that
fun.

1481
01:05:07,630 --> 01:05:11,400
LBQ I do love for it because I
mean LBQ, I use my year fives

1482
01:05:11,410 --> 01:05:13,470
and the year three and four
teacher uses it as well.

1483
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:16,780
So not just for Sats Prep but
just for revisiting content.

1484
01:05:16,790 --> 01:05:20,430
So all last week I taught a
lesson on adding fractions, so

1485
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:22,700
I'm going to gaol HQ this week
as my warm up on adding

1486
01:05:22,710 --> 01:05:24,300
fractions to see what they can
remember.

1487
01:05:25,220 --> 01:05:27,590
But yeah, I I just see it as
something that every teacher

1488
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:30,170
does, but we just have to do it
a little bit more intensely

1489
01:05:30,180 --> 01:05:31,970
because of of Sats week coming
up.

1490
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:35,250
Yeah, it's interesting you say
we have to, because I think the

1491
01:05:35,260 --> 01:05:37,850
counter argument might end up
being that we don't have to.

1492
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:39,470
Yeah.
It's true that we it was.

1493
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:40,790
We're all we're all stuck.
Feel.

1494
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:43,030
Pressure.
For a little bit, whether

1495
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:45,510
whether we like to say or not,
you know, because realistically

1496
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:47,250
we should just be teaching the
curriculum.

1497
01:05:47,260 --> 01:05:49,520
But I do as well, you know, I
absolutely will be doing exactly

1498
01:05:49,530 --> 01:05:50,790
that.
I'll be going over loads of key

1499
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:53,370
content again, probably more
than I ever normally would in

1500
01:05:53,380 --> 01:05:56,310
like a standard maths lesson in
those last few weeks up to Sats.

1501
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:59,660
I definitely will be cramming in
just a bit more revision to make

1502
01:05:59,670 --> 01:06:01,640
sure it's kind of there at the
forefront because I want them to

1503
01:06:01,650 --> 01:06:02,890
show themselves off in their
best light.

1504
01:06:02,900 --> 01:06:05,130
But this test it's really
important for me, but not really

1505
01:06:05,140 --> 01:06:06,550
for me all.
Yeah, I know.

1506
01:06:06,820 --> 01:06:09,240
Have you got time for Just say
one more thing about it?

1507
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:12,350
Yeah, go for.
It there's a You probably heard

1508
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:15,370
of this idea once, I've always
thought a good idea, although I

1509
01:06:15,380 --> 01:06:18,080
don't know what do you think
about having the Sats at the

1510
01:06:18,090 --> 01:06:20,840
beginning of year seven in the
secondary school host?

1511
01:06:23,610 --> 01:06:26,980
I've never thought about it.
What would you say the pros and

1512
01:06:26,990 --> 01:06:30,810
cons are after that?
So in my mind I I feel like it

1513
01:06:30,820 --> 01:06:33,600
makes the playing field more
level perhaps.

1514
01:06:33,610 --> 01:06:35,650
I haven't put loads of thought
into it, but on top of my head

1515
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:39,510
all children have had the six
week summer and so it's.

1516
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:42,470
I feel like it's more a true
reflection of their primary

1517
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:47,290
school learning and it also
takes away the whole None of the

1518
01:06:47,300 --> 01:06:49,170
secondary school teachers are
gonna be pressured to cheat

1519
01:06:49,180 --> 01:06:51,270
because they've not taught the
content and their pay is not

1520
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:54,250
going to be reflected on it.
There's going to be no pressure

1521
01:06:54,260 --> 01:06:56,310
for boosters and cramming and
all of this.

1522
01:06:56,420 --> 01:06:58,490
We've actually got the whole
year to teach the whole

1523
01:06:58,500 --> 01:07:00,550
curriculum just like every other
year group.

1524
01:07:00,660 --> 01:07:04,390
The only downside could
potentially be the 2nd that I

1525
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:08,200
can see is the secondary school
teachers will want to low scores

1526
01:07:08,270 --> 01:07:11,820
I think so that their progress
will look good by the end of

1527
01:07:11,830 --> 01:07:13,350
year 11.
But then if they take the

1528
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:15,820
beginning of year seven, how can
you manufacture low scores?

1529
01:07:15,830 --> 01:07:17,880
Because you've had nothing to do
with the kids at that point.

1530
01:07:17,990 --> 01:07:22,080
So I just heard that idea once
and I can't see many cons to it

1531
01:07:22,130 --> 01:07:24,000
really.
Yeah, that's really interesting.

1532
01:07:24,010 --> 01:07:25,400
I think we should explore that a
bit more.

1533
01:07:25,410 --> 01:07:27,300
I kind of want to go away and
think about that.

1534
01:07:27,310 --> 01:07:28,960
One, Yeah, sorry, I should have.
Mentioned earlier.

1535
01:07:29,010 --> 01:07:30,960
No, it's really cool because we
could do, we could do like some

1536
01:07:30,970 --> 01:07:31,980
Instagram reels and things on
it.

1537
01:07:31,990 --> 01:07:34,510
Yeah, and talk about it, maybe
put a poll out or something like

1538
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:35,790
that.
Yeah, that's a really good

1539
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:37,040
point.
I'd love to think more about

1540
01:07:37,050 --> 01:07:40,260
what the what the potential cons
are or if there is a big flaw.

1541
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:43,270
Yeah, you said it's harder to
manufacture scores and if it's

1542
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:46,130
in the best interest of the year
seven teachers for the kids to

1543
01:07:46,140 --> 01:07:49,260
just it, will it not even truly
reflect themselves, but the

1544
01:07:49,270 --> 01:07:51,720
best, their best interest would
be for them to do as worse as

1545
01:07:51,730 --> 01:07:54,280
possible.
So there and so that there are

1546
01:07:54,290 --> 01:07:56,630
progress data that's good
towards then you come in I can

1547
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:58,720
see you ready to poised and
ready.

1548
01:07:59,210 --> 01:08:02,460
I'm thinking straight away
because my initial thoughts are

1549
01:08:03,010 --> 01:08:05,190
every single year seven child
goes to secondary school and

1550
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:07,470
does a baseline test anyway.
So why not standardise it and

1551
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:09,960
just make it an official key,
you know key stage two test.

1552
01:08:09,970 --> 01:08:12,500
Because what's happening
currently is we did a key stage

1553
01:08:12,510 --> 01:08:14,280
two test.
It is.

1554
01:08:14,470 --> 01:08:18,500
I think it serves much more as
just say, a marker how how a

1555
01:08:18,510 --> 01:08:22,240
school is performing rather than
useful for the child moving

1556
01:08:22,250 --> 01:08:25,359
forward.
So it would kind of, it would

1557
01:08:25,370 --> 01:08:28,000
get rid of any kind of official
government marker on how a

1558
01:08:28,010 --> 01:08:30,819
school is performing.
Which one might be a problem,

1559
01:08:30,870 --> 01:08:33,020
like do they have to put more on
an Ofsted visit, which is the

1560
01:08:33,029 --> 01:08:37,319
last thing we want right now.
But equally, I think it is much

1561
01:08:37,330 --> 01:08:41,420
better for a secondary school to
see exactly where their children

1562
01:08:41,430 --> 01:08:44,439
are when they get to them as a
really formal standardised test

1563
01:08:44,450 --> 01:08:46,939
across the country.
So I think it's hugely

1564
01:08:46,950 --> 01:08:49,710
beneficial for secondary school.
I think it's gonna leave a huge

1565
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:54,930
gaping gap in how the government
feels like or it seems to them

1566
01:08:54,979 --> 01:08:59,420
to the public how we're going to
judge how a school is actually

1567
01:08:59,430 --> 01:09:02,510
doing.
Because like Sats or not, it

1568
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:06,630
does really hold us accountable.
I think throughout that in a

1569
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:08,880
good school, throughout the
whole of the journey through the

1570
01:09:08,890 --> 01:09:11,220
school, it keeps everyone
accountable because I'm I'm

1571
01:09:11,229 --> 01:09:14,170
thinking of Sats when I teach
Year 4, I'm thinking, OK, they

1572
01:09:14,180 --> 01:09:16,850
need to know these year 4
curriculum basics right now

1573
01:09:16,899 --> 01:09:18,930
because actually it's going to
build when it goes to the five,

1574
01:09:18,939 --> 01:09:20,529
it's going to build when it goes
to Year 6.

1575
01:09:20,609 --> 01:09:24,800
So it's a really good idea I
think for data for children in

1576
01:09:24,810 --> 01:09:28,760
secondary school, it's good for
primary school teachers because

1577
01:09:28,770 --> 01:09:30,220
it would take away all the
stress.

1578
01:09:30,529 --> 01:09:34,020
But I think we would be missing
what I actually think I said a

1579
01:09:34,029 --> 01:09:36,560
few Times Now in this podcast.
It's actually a good thing to

1580
01:09:36,569 --> 01:09:38,439
see where children are at the
end of key stage two,

1581
01:09:38,450 --> 01:09:40,790
personally.
I think jumping on on that, on

1582
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:43,040
that point, and I think there's
one one floor I've sort of

1583
01:09:43,050 --> 01:09:43,859
thought of.
I don't know.

1584
01:09:43,870 --> 01:09:48,060
You can explore it with me which
is that like thinking about that

1585
01:09:48,069 --> 01:09:51,689
that fair test analogy again
about about it being comparative

1586
01:09:51,700 --> 01:09:54,100
and looking at comparing
children on an individual level

1587
01:09:54,109 --> 01:09:58,110
which might then impact how the
school is judged as well over

1588
01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:00,550
the six weeks summer holiday.
I think it would be reasonable

1589
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:03,570
to suggest that maybe you're you
know a a bunch of the children

1590
01:10:03,580 --> 01:10:06,770
are percentage of the children
that really like learning would

1591
01:10:06,780 --> 01:10:09,370
go away and and make sure they
do a bit of extra revision over

1592
01:10:09,380 --> 01:10:11,490
the summer potentially.
Or Jill parents.

1593
01:10:11,500 --> 01:10:14,730
Get chooses or tutors you know,
but keeping that trajectory up

1594
01:10:14,740 --> 01:10:17,090
for them because I like learning
and they're in that cycle.

1595
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:19,430
And then equally the opposite
happening of children that are

1596
01:10:19,440 --> 01:10:21,990
disengaged of learning, not
only, you know they're going to

1597
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:23,870
have six weeks off, they're not
going to think about it at all.

1598
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:26,370
If anything, they're going to go
down more than the average child

1599
01:10:26,440 --> 01:10:29,910
and you might all it, it might
just end up kind of expanding

1600
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:32,350
the gap between your kind, your
top 5%, your bottom 5%.

1601
01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:34,830
But I don't know.
I don't know how I'm making this

1602
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:36,050
up.
Yeah, but.

1603
01:10:36,060 --> 01:10:38,390
But my, my retort to that and
Sophie, maybe you could come

1604
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:41,790
back to, I'm about to say my
retort to that would be So what?

1605
01:10:41,860 --> 01:10:44,660
That's more useful because at
the minute that's happening

1606
01:10:44,670 --> 01:10:47,150
anyway, we get the data from
before that happens.

1607
01:10:47,160 --> 01:10:49,610
They go to secondary school and
it's all skewed because of what

1608
01:10:49,620 --> 01:10:52,310
you just said and it's actually
not reliable.

1609
01:10:52,380 --> 01:10:54,310
So what have kids like learning?
Do you know what?

1610
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:56,880
It's the same as if a kid's good
at football and they get really

1611
01:10:56,890 --> 01:10:59,150
good at football over the summer
holidays and one kid doesn't.

1612
01:10:59,390 --> 01:11:01,740
When they go to school, they're
still better at football.

1613
01:11:01,790 --> 01:11:03,970
So it's it's good to know that
we're not gonna pretend that

1614
01:11:03,980 --> 01:11:05,020
they're not now better at
football.

1615
01:11:05,030 --> 01:11:06,900
Same for English and maths.
They're better at English and

1616
01:11:06,910 --> 01:11:08,080
maths because they've done the
work well.

1617
01:11:08,090 --> 01:11:09,790
I need to know that at the start
of Year 7.

1618
01:11:11,140 --> 01:11:13,010
That's true.
And actually those that haven't

1619
01:11:13,020 --> 01:11:15,090
done any learning for six weeks,
whereas it might have been

1620
01:11:15,100 --> 01:11:17,610
crammed into them and they
poured out in a test and they

1621
01:11:17,620 --> 01:11:19,910
look like they're a lot better
at if they've not done anything

1622
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:22,530
for six weeks, it might be
really helpful for the schools

1623
01:11:22,540 --> 01:11:23,950
to know.
That's where I really, really

1624
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:25,710
need to put my focus there,
which may have been hidden

1625
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:29,470
beforehand potentially.
So actually really really good

1626
01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:32,330
outcome for the secondary
schools and knowing where they

1627
01:11:32,340 --> 01:11:36,080
are but just potentially worse
for if the if the if the school

1628
01:11:36,090 --> 01:11:39,410
before is then judged on that it
might just look a bit worse on

1629
01:11:39,420 --> 01:11:41,650
them because that because that
all that cramming and cheating.

1630
01:11:41,730 --> 01:11:44,580
It did.
Yeah it's not gonna pay off as

1631
01:11:44,590 --> 01:11:48,160
much so I I guess that's the the
floor but but like Dylan said

1632
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:51,010
who cares then.
Yeah if if that's the if that's

1633
01:11:51,020 --> 01:11:55,150
the drawback which is just like
vanity sats but the secondary

1634
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:57,090
school that's now gonna be
dealing with these children for

1635
01:11:57,100 --> 01:11:59,780
the next 5-6 years to actually
have a bit of a better

1636
01:11:59,790 --> 01:12:02,950
reflection of what they can do.
Yeah and probably objectively a

1637
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:05,340
net win for the kids.
I think.

1638
01:12:05,830 --> 01:12:06,790
I don't know.
I like that idea.

1639
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:08,200
Really cool.
Thanks for bringing that to the

1640
01:12:08,210 --> 01:12:10,270
table Sophie.
When you're the education

1641
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:14,710
secretary, you can put that into
place change.

1642
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:17,270
This I'll be fixing maternity
pay first.

1643
01:12:17,580 --> 01:12:20,890
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And paternity leave, obviously.

1644
01:12:21,500 --> 01:12:23,420
Thank you.
Yeah, extend our two weeks off,

1645
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:26,100
right.
I think we're coming up to on

1646
01:12:26,110 --> 01:12:27,580
our end, two hours of recording
here.

1647
01:12:27,590 --> 01:12:28,980
It's been an amazing
conversation.

1648
01:12:29,710 --> 01:12:32,020
It's flown by.
Honestly had such fun.

1649
01:12:32,030 --> 01:12:33,540
Thank you.
No, no.

1650
01:12:33,590 --> 01:12:36,140
Thanks for coming on again.
You know our first Return guest,

1651
01:12:36,550 --> 01:12:39,320
Dylan was extremely excited to
announce that you're our first

1652
01:12:39,330 --> 01:12:41,800
return guest.
Well, I feel honoured.

1653
01:12:42,870 --> 01:12:43,460
You.
You are.

1654
01:12:43,470 --> 01:12:44,810
You're honoured.
You're honoured.

1655
01:12:45,990 --> 01:12:49,630
Thank you so much.
I realised as I said that that

1656
01:12:49,640 --> 01:12:52,370
that makes me sound entitled, so
I quickly moved on.

1657
01:12:52,620 --> 01:12:55,090
You are honoured.
Stand right you're feeling.

1658
01:12:55,100 --> 01:12:58,490
About as in as in I'm honoured
by you is.

1659
01:12:58,940 --> 01:12:59,990
I knew.
What you meant?

1660
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:01,630
Can I pull it back?
Can I pull it back?

1661
01:13:01,980 --> 01:13:06,680
Can I not look cringe here?
You are honoured.

1662
01:13:06,690 --> 01:13:11,000
And I and I sound like you.
Ohh dear.

1663
01:13:11,010 --> 01:13:12,810
Anyway, thanks so much for
coming on.

1664
01:13:12,850 --> 01:13:14,600
We look forward to our our third
episode.

1665
01:13:14,610 --> 01:13:16,260
Maybe next year we'll just make
it a yearly thing.

1666
01:13:16,270 --> 01:13:17,550
You come on every year.
I'd love that.

1667
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:20,380
And like like you said, we'll
get we'll get to find out what

1668
01:13:20,550 --> 01:13:22,980
what's in the future for us, for
you.

1669
01:13:23,460 --> 01:13:24,620
Thanks.
Thanks so much, Sophie.

1670
01:13:24,630 --> 01:13:25,960
And we'll.
Chat You having me?