Ep 54: Mixed Ability or Sets: Should We Group Classes Based On Ability?

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Hola, I thought.
So do they teach, sleep, repeat

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or me nombre.
Dillon.

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Mean hombre, a Hayden.
And welcome back to that

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episode.
Hey, how you doing?

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I'm alright mate.
That was that was a bit random.

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Where did that come from?
What do you mean?

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You started in.
I think it was that Spanish.

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Hey, was that you started back?
Do you not realise?

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Mate, are you hallucinating
because you're selling?

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Is that what's going on?
Are you are you feeling OK?

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Ohh, anyone doesn't know?
Hey, this feeling a bit poorly

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this week.
I'm not feeling, so I'm not

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feeling so good, alright.
Anyone who watched the podcast

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is in for an absolute treat
looking at.

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That.
Hiya.

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Hi.
I'm in an Addy.

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I'm comfy.
I'm cosy.

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I'm here recording the podcast.
Alright, leave me alone.

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Well, you might be wondering why
we're not in the same place.

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That's why I don't fancy his
lurgy.

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Hey, did you not already help
you feel better?

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You do fancy me, though.
Ohh Joe help you?

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Cool.
You need to drink cafe every

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morning that gut microbes again.
Get it going my friend.

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I don't know if you've seen, but
if you don't start the day off

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with an ice bath and a bit of
cafe, then you are simply not

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looking after your.
Body is that after going to the

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gym at 5:00 AM?
Yeah, exactly that.

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And do you know what?
I wake up early every morning.

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I wake up at 4:00 AM.
That gives ME3 extra hours.

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If you extrapolate that over a
week, that's 7 * 3.

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That's an extra day.
We get an extra day compared to

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you every single week.
That's just for a second.

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Let's just speak about that.
Don't you just hate those

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videos?
The honest to God they are so

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popular.
Every single person ever on

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Instagram is making videos.
Like I get up, I'm in the 2:00

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AM club.
It's getting earlier and

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earlier.
It's like you.

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Don't sleep anymore.
Sleep.

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Yeah, can't sleep.
Honest to God it did.

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You know, Hate him.
If you save 1 LB Every single

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day for a year, how much money
you have at the end?

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30,000 lbs?
Some believable.

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Just one pound every.
Day.

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What?
What?

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What?
Why are you saying that?

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That's.
Wrong.

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I'm a financial guru.
Just save 1 LB out.

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It's easy.
Anyone who's complaining about

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not being able to make it
anywhere, 1 LB a day, get up,

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have an extra day.
I've got an extra day every

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morning that everyone else gets.
I get that.

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And that's how you make gains.
Hayden, how you doing?

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How's your week?
Yeah, yeah, really good.

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Thanks for the advice that I
get.

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The analogy now on how good, how
good that advice is might be

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good other than the fact I've
got this.

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So if you know, got a cold
again, I'm feeling so great.

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Yeah, wearing a nerdy, not
feeling good.

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Didn't sleep you.
Do you?

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Honest, I'm just like, jokes
aside for a second, you do have

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the worst immune system of
anyone I've ever met, annoying

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or.
I don't know.

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It's not been, it's just been a
bit rubbish recently.

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Isn't it time?
Yeah, recently.

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I don't recently for you.
I didn't get COVID.

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That's right.
You you didn't do a test that

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told you you had COVID.
That's what you're.

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Saying I I did tests, they just
they came back negative.

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Ohh OK yeah.
Why everyone?

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Do you know why?
Because Hayden can't put a stick

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on his tonsils.
He physically can't do it.

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So he did.
Yeah.

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You could test.
I used.

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You would not put on your
tonsils yet.

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Ohh, I've not got it.
Did you did you do the part of

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the test where it would get the?
No, I didn't do that bit.

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Right.
Yeah, because they went to nose

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only.
They did go to nose only those

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sticks.
They were not for your tonsils

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anymore after like months.
So none of that.

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None other than you.
Little cold, cold, cold.

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How's your?
How's your week been?

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It's been alright.
We had we had our 500 mock Sats

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this week.
That's right.

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Yeah, yeah, Classic six.
We just ram them into a smaller

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time period because they do the
Sats before the end of the year

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for some reason.
That was all right, but it's

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just stressful, isn't it?
Marking papers.

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I always think, yeah, no
marking, I don't know what is

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wrong with me every time we do a
mock test week, right?

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I always think, oh, that's good
because we got no, like, actual

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lessons.
I'm like, yeah, easy week, no

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marking.
I always seem to forget that

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marking tests takes three times
as long as your actual marketing

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does.
But got it done.

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All good.
Bit of progress.

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Everyone's feeling good.
Kids are ready.

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It's you know which one weeks.
Do you do what?

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What papers didn't you do?
The 2023 papers, which were

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renowned for being really,
really, really hard.

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I don't know.
Yeah, I'm pretending we're not.

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No.
But yeah, the 2023 papers, I

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really hate them.
Like, I I do think I'm a classic

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person who like loads of
teachers do this every year.

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It's the worst year ever, right?
Every.

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Every year.
Ohh, so much harder than

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previous years.
We all do it.

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And I do think I'm one of those
people.

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But then I try and reflect after
and be like, OK, calm down, It's

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done Now.
Is it actually or is it just

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exactly the same as it is every
other year and having?

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Done that?
No, I was.

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Right.
Yeah.

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Well, not not completely, but
like there was just a few bits

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about it.
I just thought.

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I just thought the questions
weren't particularly well

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written, particularly in the
reading, like there was way too

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many questions to do in the
reading.

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I know you made a video on
YouTube last year, didn't you,

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about all the controversy around
all the English.

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And it's definitely true.
It was just poorly written.

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The the paper, some of the
reasoning of the mass was just a

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just a bit harsh, just a bit
unnecessarily mean.

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There'll be like A1 mark
question with three steps and

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you're like, oh, that's not
really happened before, but you

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know, it's it's not that bad.
The mark, the Passmark was

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lower, which I never actually
knew until we did it again this

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year.
I never actually found out what

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it was, but it was lower than
previous years.

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So it's fine.
It was adjusted to to make up

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for the fact that it was more
difficult.

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Yeah, yeah, I reckon if you look
back at the papers, isn't there,

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isn't it something like 2023?
I think everyone agrees is is

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tricky.
There was a big fire at the

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time.
I think everyone is a bit like

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maybe we overreacted slightly
when you look at it because some

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of them are like, OK, yeah, OK,
they're just, they're a bit

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tricky, whatever.
But isn't it 2023?

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And is it 2016 that's like
renowned for being ridiculously

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hard.
I don't if it's 2016, we never

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go back that far anymore.
But 2018 certainly?

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Is the 2018 tests are just
savage?

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We did them with this, with
this.

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It was like the second one we
did in the year and then someone

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else went down.
It was like, yeah, that test is

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absolutely savage.
I still think that's the hardest

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one, but I was comparing them
because we did that not too long

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ago and I was like, Nah, 2018 is
still nastier than 2023 in my

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opinion.
Fair enough.

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Well, we can, we can have four.
We don't have that what you say.

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I say we can talk sats bit more
later because we've got some,

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we've got some episodes planned
In the future we might be

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talking about some guests.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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You're gonna returning guests.
Yeah, we're gonna try and get

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get people back on the podcast.
I've had people message me so

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often over the last like, honest
about four months saying like,

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oh, I'd love to come on at some
point.

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And I'm like genuinely like,
yeah, that would be great, that

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would be fantastic.
But you know what's easier for

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me if I roll out of bed?
Just drive to Hayden and then

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record.
After you out of bed.

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Sorry sorry sorry what what do
you do out of bed because I I

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heard role I heard roll out of
if you if I roll out of it I

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just have context everyone Dylan
simply a voice note to the group

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chat and say me him and our
girlfriends trying to get us to

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back him up because his his
Lauren his girlfriend who's

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called Lauren both called Lauren
was taking the Mick out of him

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for for not pronouncing rolling.
No, correctly.

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I'm having it right.
I'm gonna say it.

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I'm gonna say the word, and then
you're gonna say the word, and

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the listeners will tell us if
there's any difference

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whatsoever.
You go first.

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Actually gone.
OK, rolling.

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Rolling so different, there is
no difference whatsoever.

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Honest.
Honestly.

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Go.
On OK, when you speak, I think

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you're about to tell me about
you're in a boat rowing, right?

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Whereas when I'm speaking, I'm
thinking about like a sandwich

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A.
Roll.

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I'm rolling here.
What What do you do with 10 pins

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with a with a ball when you
Chuck it down the alley?

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What are you doing?
Bowling.

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Bowling.
No, not bowling.

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It's not a it's not a bow and
arrow.

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You're not firing the bowl like
this.

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I'm going bowling.
No, it's bowling, Bowling.

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I don't even mind that you say
it different.

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It's just the fact that you
think they're the same.

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You think that there's no
difference in what we're.

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Saying no, no, I need to explain
this.

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I need to explain this.
I'm I'm actually, I'm genuinely

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more than willing to accept that
I say it wrong.

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Because there's there's a lot of
things I say wrong whether it's

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idioms or wrong way round or you
know I've got a bit of a

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northern twang in like every
other word sometimes that I'm

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saying I I'm willing to accept
that.

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But I truly sit here and don't
understand at all the difference

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between these two, these two
words that you're saying.

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Like when people tell me I'm
like I even I even would accept

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that you're right.
I want you all to understand in

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my brain.
I think I'm going crazy because

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I don't know the difference
whatsoever between these.

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Well, let's keep rolling with
the Let's keep rolling with the

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podcast.
Yeah, you'd forget your You'd

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forget your screw.
If your If your head wasn't,

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your head wasn't on.
You can't even do it wrong, you

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guys can say last time.
You'd forget your head if it

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wasn't.
Attached or something like that,

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you didn't even finish.
Forget your head.

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If you didn't have a vertebrae
attack, you go to your spine.

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Ah, that's the one, Dylan.
Well done.

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Anyway, how's your how's your
week?

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How?
Have you been?

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Yeah, fine, fine.
We had our last week of swimming

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this week, and obviously
swimming is amazing, but it kind

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of messes up your afternoon
curriculum a bit.

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Like when it's so intricately
planned to cover everything and

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there's already not enough time
to do stuff.

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And then suddenly it's like, by
the way, and after, you know, a

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week for four weeks, you're
going swimming and it's ohh, OK.

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So we kind of rejig stuff
around, but it just so happened

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in in the afternoon where they
go swimming.

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I constantly had like half an
hour spare with the kids after

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we got on the register, they got
their stuff.

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We we just had half an hour to
the coach got there.

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00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,530
So what can I do that's quite
useful.

229
00:09:29,580 --> 00:09:32,230
And I was thinking, I don't get
time for handwriting, don't get

230
00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:33,940
much time at all in school for
handwriting.

231
00:09:33,950 --> 00:09:37,870
So over the last couple of weeks
we've been printing out some

232
00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,930
prompts and stuff some help with
lines and we had a real focus in

233
00:09:41,940 --> 00:09:47,840
my class about it's as simple as
this the height of your letters

234
00:09:48,150 --> 00:09:50,260
and the fact that I need to be
able to read them and it's

235
00:09:50,270 --> 00:09:53,920
become a running joke and and it
is funny but it's also true and

236
00:09:53,930 --> 00:09:56,660
I explained to the kids and me
and you talked about this before

237
00:09:56,670 --> 00:09:59,050
I loved doing this.
When you actually just stop you

238
00:09:59,060 --> 00:10:01,580
and before you do something with
the children you simply just

239
00:10:01,590 --> 00:10:04,100
explain why you're doing this.
So instead of just being like

240
00:10:04,150 --> 00:10:06,060
right hand writing here's what
it actually looks like.

241
00:10:06,110 --> 00:10:09,370
Can you copy that 10 times then
we'll do an I actually saying to

242
00:10:09,380 --> 00:10:13,760
us like why do you think that we
practise handwriting in school?

243
00:10:13,830 --> 00:10:15,150
Like what?
What is the point?

244
00:10:15,220 --> 00:10:17,210
And it was amazing.
It was such a good thing to do

245
00:10:17,220 --> 00:10:20,070
such a simple process with the
kids because the 1st 6 answers

246
00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,370
were complete nonsense.
Genuinely it took a good 3

247
00:10:23,380 --> 00:10:25,880
minutes to get to the actual
reason and it made me think,

248
00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:27,850
God, they don't know.
Half the time they just they

249
00:10:27,860 --> 00:10:30,070
just think that you know their
teachers get them to write an

250
00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,950
age but that's cool and there's
no application then to their

251
00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:34,780
work.
So we had a chat and they were

252
00:10:34,790 --> 00:10:39,410
like because on the board it's
that tall And I was like ohh,

253
00:10:39,420 --> 00:10:41,070
true.
But that's not the reason why we

254
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,550
practise handwriting is it?
And then the next person said,

255
00:10:43,620 --> 00:10:45,170
because we do writing in our
book.

256
00:10:45,260 --> 00:10:47,940
And I was like, I I can't what
you mean.

257
00:10:48,030 --> 00:10:50,680
But again, that's not why we're
doing it.

258
00:10:50,690 --> 00:10:52,500
You know, it's not an actual
reason.

259
00:10:52,590 --> 00:10:55,340
And we ended up getting to the
point where one child said, this

260
00:10:55,350 --> 00:10:57,310
is so that you can read it
properly.

261
00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,580
And I was like, yes, it is as
simple as that.

262
00:10:59,590 --> 00:11:02,790
We practise handwriting, so
anyone who picks up your work

263
00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,040
who isn't used to your writing
can still read it.

264
00:11:05,050 --> 00:11:07,940
Because I'll be very honest,
guys, when I read your work, I

265
00:11:07,950 --> 00:11:09,810
know for a fact there are other
teachers in the school who

266
00:11:09,820 --> 00:11:11,680
wouldn't know what you're, what
you're putting down.

267
00:11:11,690 --> 00:11:13,720
But I do because I'm used to
seeing what your letters are

268
00:11:13,730 --> 00:11:15,800
like.
So anyway we do this for a

269
00:11:15,810 --> 00:11:18,370
couple of weeks and I just had
one of them moments again as a

270
00:11:18,380 --> 00:11:21,290
teacher that we talked about
recently where those small wins,

271
00:11:21,300 --> 00:11:25,190
where you're just like, ohh,
yeah OK this this is progress.

272
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,220
And This is why we do this
because one of the children and

273
00:11:28,230 --> 00:11:30,610
this was in an English lesson so
we've been doing handwriting and

274
00:11:30,620 --> 00:11:34,170
writing and it was English
lesson and I was just talking.

275
00:11:34,180 --> 00:11:36,790
We we set them off on the task
and I just said to them, I I

276
00:11:36,860 --> 00:11:40,470
pointed to the board where I've
got a little like double line

277
00:11:40,660 --> 00:11:43,170
where I tell them how high their
letter should go because either

278
00:11:43,180 --> 00:11:45,450
their letters go to roughly
halfway or to the top.

279
00:11:45,490 --> 00:11:46,740
You know what it's like teaching
kids.

280
00:11:46,750 --> 00:11:48,530
It's tiny.
Sometimes it's really small.

281
00:11:48,540 --> 00:11:51,460
They just squeeze it in.
And this kid just halfway

282
00:11:51,470 --> 00:11:53,680
through their writing task, put
their hand up.

283
00:11:53,850 --> 00:11:55,560
And I was like, yeah.
And I was expecting him to say,

284
00:11:55,570 --> 00:11:57,480
how do you spell this word?
Or does this make sense?

285
00:11:57,490 --> 00:11:59,380
Or can you check my work, you
know, as you always do?

286
00:11:59,810 --> 00:12:03,580
And he just said, I've noticed
my handwriting is much better

287
00:12:03,590 --> 00:12:07,100
Now I'm getting to halfway.
And I was like, amazing,

288
00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:08,520
brilliant.
This is why.

289
00:12:08,530 --> 00:12:10,680
This is why we're doing it.
And if you look at the

290
00:12:10,690 --> 00:12:13,880
handwriting across the board, it
is improving.

291
00:12:13,930 --> 00:12:17,520
And I think sometimes we get
caught up as teachers when

292
00:12:17,530 --> 00:12:19,720
people introduce stuff or when
you're just doing stuff for

293
00:12:19,730 --> 00:12:21,580
run-of-the-mill, OK, yeah,
whatever.

294
00:12:21,770 --> 00:12:24,700
And and you notice that it's not
really shifting the dial much

295
00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:27,700
actually you can shift the dial
with these children if you're

296
00:12:27,710 --> 00:12:29,520
really specific about what
you're doing.

297
00:12:29,710 --> 00:12:33,110
If you have small goals is is
what I think small steps with

298
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,200
the kids.
The only thing my class have

299
00:12:35,210 --> 00:12:37,420
been focusing on in terms of
their handwriting for about four

300
00:12:37,430 --> 00:12:39,320
weeks now is the height of their
letters.

301
00:12:39,730 --> 00:12:42,890
If it's slightly scruffy, if it
wasn't joined up properly, if

302
00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:45,700
the the gaps between the words
were inconsistent.

303
00:12:45,810 --> 00:12:48,560
I did not have a problem with
what they were doing.

304
00:12:48,690 --> 00:12:51,330
All I was really laser focused
on was the height of their

305
00:12:51,340 --> 00:12:54,200
letters and it really made a
difference in such a short piece

306
00:12:54,210 --> 00:12:54,750
of time.
I don't know.

307
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:56,850
One of things I want to share
with you that it does work if

308
00:12:56,860 --> 00:12:58,790
you have that laser focus.
Yeah.

309
00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,210
And it's and and the other side
of it, the whole the whole point

310
00:13:01,220 --> 00:13:05,790
I guess is that the handwriting
and time for handwriting just is

311
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:07,410
just pushed out the curriculum,
isn't it?

312
00:13:07,470 --> 00:13:11,430
I'd wonder how many schools
actually have proper time put

313
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:12,710
aside to do things that
handwriting.

314
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:14,190
I reckon that is the first thing
to go.

315
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,540
As soon as it's Ohh no we're not
teaching enough science.

316
00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:19,390
You know bump handwriting times
gone and then we go, why is the

317
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,200
handwriting so bad and you're 6.
It's like, well, I'm not

318
00:13:21,210 --> 00:13:23,880
actually had any any actual
teaching like that, like

319
00:13:23,890 --> 00:13:26,670
specific focuses where they can
really make improvements for

320
00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:30,660
ages, any, any, any other areas
of the curriculum like like like

321
00:13:30,670 --> 00:13:32,920
handwriting where it's like just
completely disregarded now and

322
00:13:32,930 --> 00:13:36,580
never gets put in really.
Yeah, I would say.

323
00:13:36,590 --> 00:13:40,480
I would say foundational maths.
And that sounds ridiculous, but

324
00:13:40,530 --> 00:13:43,780
I'm talking very specific maths
skills that like aren't maybe

325
00:13:43,790 --> 00:13:45,640
explicitly written into the
curriculum.

326
00:13:45,690 --> 00:13:48,740
Where if a child gets to year
three right, and they can't

327
00:13:48,750 --> 00:13:53,530
really AA number or have a
number or you know those kind of

328
00:13:53,540 --> 00:13:56,780
foundational skills that you
know how to add.

329
00:13:57,050 --> 00:14:01,700
Let's say how to add 39, right?
To explicitly give time to show

330
00:14:01,710 --> 00:14:04,660
children that most adults, if
they add 39, just add 40 and

331
00:14:04,670 --> 00:14:07,080
take away one.
I know it's in their points, but

332
00:14:07,090 --> 00:14:08,640
it might be like a standalone
lesson.

333
00:14:09,070 --> 00:14:12,300
There's a lot of stuff like that
where it kind of just, it just

334
00:14:12,310 --> 00:14:14,530
gets swept under the rug because
there's not time learner

335
00:14:14,540 --> 00:14:16,480
procedure.
There's enough time to do it.

336
00:14:16,490 --> 00:14:18,370
Yeah, there's the curriculum to
do, and it's like this is an

337
00:14:18,380 --> 00:14:21,020
underpinning skill.
It's not an actual learning

338
00:14:21,030 --> 00:14:23,320
objective on the curriculum.
So ohh, let's hope some of you

339
00:14:23,330 --> 00:14:25,360
pick it up.
But yeah, really should be like,

340
00:14:25,370 --> 00:14:27,160
no, we need to teach them.
All, yeah.

341
00:14:27,170 --> 00:14:29,380
If you think about doubling, you
can use short multiplication

342
00:14:29,390 --> 00:14:30,900
just times by two.
And that's what most kids were

343
00:14:30,910 --> 00:14:32,830
doing my class.
Well, actually the mental

344
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,340
arithmetic of learning how to
double the number in your head

345
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,560
is actually really, really
useful in life.

346
00:14:38,610 --> 00:14:41,700
And I remember when we were in
school and I'd bring these back.

347
00:14:41,710 --> 00:14:43,020
I don't know if they still go on
or not.

348
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,480
We were in school, we'd sit down
and the teacher would put Mr

349
00:14:46,490 --> 00:14:48,380
Lex.
I remember in year six, he'd get

350
00:14:48,390 --> 00:14:49,860
a little tape.
It would go into a tape

351
00:14:49,870 --> 00:14:51,980
recorder, push it in.
I remember the click and he

352
00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:55,260
pressed play and it would be
this voice and say you do a

353
00:14:55,270 --> 00:14:57,080
maths test where it's 30
questions.

354
00:14:57,170 --> 00:14:59,590
There was no repeating and they
moved on to the next question

355
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,980
after like 6 to 10 seconds.
And it was, it was questions

356
00:15:01,990 --> 00:15:03,760
like that.
It was nine.

357
00:15:03,770 --> 00:15:06,800
Add 7 and you had like 6 seconds
to do it and every five.

358
00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:08,950
Wouldn't it be harder, right?
Exactly.

359
00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,930
And by the end you get a bunch
of children who you know, OK,

360
00:15:12,940 --> 00:15:15,800
you guys, you stop at 20.
I I remember there was a table.

361
00:15:15,810 --> 00:15:18,090
They just stopped there and they
were like, you know, brilliant.

362
00:15:18,100 --> 00:15:19,780
We'll, we'll finish it off.
Everyone else would carry on for

363
00:15:19,790 --> 00:15:21,350
a minute.
They'd be doing something else.

364
00:15:21,460 --> 00:15:23,410
Yeah, but I thought that was
really good.

365
00:15:23,420 --> 00:15:24,840
I thought that's fantastic
practise.

366
00:15:24,850 --> 00:15:29,060
And now, when was the last time
in real life you did maths and

367
00:15:29,070 --> 00:15:30,540
you needed a pen and paper to do
the maths?

368
00:15:32,510 --> 00:15:35,590
In outside of teaching.
Just yet in real life, like as

369
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,580
an adult, you know, coping in
this.

370
00:15:37,590 --> 00:15:38,660
World.
No, Never.

371
00:15:38,670 --> 00:15:40,000
Really.
Very, very, very.

372
00:15:40,010 --> 00:15:40,740
I can't.
I can't.

373
00:15:40,750 --> 00:15:43,000
How often?
How often do you do maths in

374
00:15:43,010 --> 00:15:44,770
your head?
All the time.

375
00:15:44,780 --> 00:15:47,320
I love maths.
Yeah, I just did it for fun.

376
00:15:47,330 --> 00:15:48,710
Yeah.
Every time you go shopping,

377
00:15:48,820 --> 00:15:52,070
you're kind of, you know, you're
kind of keeping an eye on how

378
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,670
much you're spending.
You're thinking, OK, well that's

379
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,370
a fiver for six roles, but this
is a tenner for 12 roles.

380
00:15:57,380 --> 00:15:58,640
Is that the same?
Is that different?

381
00:15:58,650 --> 00:16:00,070
You know, I might as well get a
big one.

382
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,230
And time.
Like constantly doing massive

383
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:02,950
time.
Especially now.

384
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,610
We got the kids always thinking
about time, time, time, time for

385
00:16:05,620 --> 00:16:06,700
this.
How long to go for a walk?

386
00:16:06,710 --> 00:16:08,590
How long have a nap.
How long You know, how long till

387
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,110
they're gonna be tired again?
All that sort of stuff.

388
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:11,690
And OK.
And let's let's ask you right

389
00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:14,990
now then in your year six class,
how many children can do long

390
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,140
division perfectly divided by
43?

391
00:16:17,190 --> 00:16:19,600
How many children can tell the
duration of time between two

392
00:16:19,610 --> 00:16:22,970
points?
Ohh, I reckon more people can do

393
00:16:22,980 --> 00:16:26,310
long division than tell the
time, which is like a year three

394
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:27,780
skill.
Yeah, telling the time is

395
00:16:27,790 --> 00:16:30,270
embarrassing.
I I I just I'm still shocked

396
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:35,070
when when year six kids ask me
ohh, what's the time and I go

397
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,160
what's there the clock's there
the clock's been there all year

398
00:16:37,210 --> 00:16:39,820
It's it's still there.
Ohh I can't read it.

399
00:16:39,830 --> 00:16:42,140
So what do you what you know
obviously I would be like what

400
00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:46,540
you buffoon but I am so in my
head I'm like Jesus Christ I no

401
00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:48,120
no one can tell the time
anymore.

402
00:16:48,180 --> 00:16:49,310
And yeah, you're right.
That is one of those

403
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,560
foundational skills that just, I
mean time is in the curriculum

404
00:16:52,670 --> 00:16:55,900
and we talked about how we think
maybe there's a bit of a parent

405
00:16:55,910 --> 00:16:57,930
expectation maybe to help your
kids learn how to tell the time

406
00:16:57,940 --> 00:16:59,470
because that's that's just a
part of life.

407
00:17:00,770 --> 00:17:02,390
But yeah, definitely financial
skills, I think.

408
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,150
I actually think to an extent
reading as well.

409
00:17:04,910 --> 00:17:08,160
I reckon if we look at reading,
as in kids just reading a book

410
00:17:08,210 --> 00:17:12,250
in school time now compared to
when we were at school, that

411
00:17:12,260 --> 00:17:13,810
time has drastically gone, isn't
it?

412
00:17:13,819 --> 00:17:16,869
I remember being at school and
regularly in the week we'd have

413
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:21,109
like a whole 40 minute slot
where it was like cool, everyone

414
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:22,910
go like get your favourite
reading book, go and sit

415
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,780
somewhere really nice and just
like just read.

416
00:17:24,819 --> 00:17:26,619
We had a little library at
school and we just go there all

417
00:17:26,630 --> 00:17:29,170
the time and it was really like
well, you know, put together, it

418
00:17:29,180 --> 00:17:30,670
was lovely.
It was a nice area to be in and

419
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,290
we're just going to sit on some
bean bags and I'll just read a

420
00:17:33,300 --> 00:17:37,690
book for 40 minutes and I was
like, ohh lunchtime now Brill

421
00:17:38,020 --> 00:17:39,930
who could read stories.
They were great readers.

422
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,950
Even Yeah, I loved it when when
the teacher end of every day

423
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,160
we'd read part of our book and
that's a big thing that still

424
00:17:46,170 --> 00:17:48,270
happens in schools is a big
thing Ofsted push and they they

425
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,350
say that should be happening.
But I always find it fantastic

426
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:53,570
when Ofsted tell me as a teacher
what I should be doing with my

427
00:17:53,580 --> 00:17:55,770
day in a day where it's
absolutely crammed already with

428
00:17:55,780 --> 00:17:57,410
the expectation that it already
set.

429
00:17:57,460 --> 00:18:01,690
And I'm like shut shut up.
If if you gave me full autonomy

430
00:18:01,740 --> 00:18:04,930
over my day I'll tell you what
we'd be doing reading more than

431
00:18:04,940 --> 00:18:06,690
anything.
I'll tell you that now every

432
00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:09,980
single day of the week, but I
can't and that's because of you

433
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,200
posted.
So please don't turn around then

434
00:18:12,210 --> 00:18:14,220
and tell me ohh.
It's beneficial if the children

435
00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:15,500
read for 20 minutes, end of the
day.

436
00:18:15,510 --> 00:18:17,900
A class book I know.
It is it, is it?

437
00:18:17,910 --> 00:18:19,930
Yeah.
Hmm, honestly.

438
00:18:19,940 --> 00:18:22,110
Like you're in control of the
reason why it doesn't happen.

439
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,410
Thanks Mr Ofsted.
Person or or leader of education

440
00:18:25,420 --> 00:18:30,320
that probably has no actual
education in teaching.

441
00:18:30,330 --> 00:18:32,810
Like we've gone to university
and we know that they're reading

442
00:18:32,820 --> 00:18:35,240
is important because we got told
for told it for three years.

443
00:18:35,250 --> 00:18:37,410
Like we know that's important.
Like why you telling us that

444
00:18:37,810 --> 00:18:40,590
there's 12 hours of stuff to do
in a day.

445
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:41,950
It's like what?
We've got 12 hours.

446
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,280
Well, do it.
I know it's mental and when you

447
00:18:45,290 --> 00:18:49,170
think about I know we're maths
leads, so any maths leads

448
00:18:49,180 --> 00:18:51,760
listening as well.
This might be controversial and

449
00:18:51,770 --> 00:18:53,940
I you know, but it it's what it
is.

450
00:18:53,950 --> 00:18:57,260
I deliver maths and well, we
deliver maths in our school to

451
00:18:57,270 --> 00:18:59,690
the absolute top standard based
on what we're expected to do by

452
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:01,400
the curriculum when our kids get
everything they need.

453
00:19:01,410 --> 00:19:03,260
And we had a recent officer
visit and we know it's good.

454
00:19:03,890 --> 00:19:08,680
However my personal opinion is
there is a huge chunk of the

455
00:19:08,690 --> 00:19:11,580
curriculum, especially in upper
key stage, two year five and six

456
00:19:11,730 --> 00:19:14,050
which is absolutely not
necessary for children who

457
00:19:14,060 --> 00:19:15,760
attend to learn.
Absolutely not.

458
00:19:15,870 --> 00:19:20,660
And if we really break it down,
OK, who actually cares?

459
00:19:20,750 --> 00:19:23,690
Give a 10 year old can cross
multiply 2 fractions.

460
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,550
Like like truly, truly who who
cares?

461
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,730
Because if you carry on with
which you all will if you carry

462
00:19:30,740 --> 00:19:33,470
on mass into secondary school,
you can do that later if you

463
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:34,780
want to do that for whatever
reason.

464
00:19:34,860 --> 00:19:37,270
And we can talk about how you
know it might be used in certain

465
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,310
situations or not.
But you know at the end of the

466
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,080
day, if as a primary school
teacher my kids get half every

467
00:19:43,090 --> 00:19:46,170
year, six and they can't tell
analogue clock, I would love to

468
00:19:46,180 --> 00:19:48,550
have the freedom to be able to
completely drop that part of the

469
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,050
fraction section and do time and
do a week exploring time with

470
00:19:52,060 --> 00:19:53,600
them.
Because yeah, do you know what?

471
00:19:53,610 --> 00:19:55,820
I know that's more important for
them and it winds me up.

472
00:19:56,230 --> 00:19:58,880
It's a good point.
There's no there's there's a a

473
00:19:58,890 --> 00:20:01,780
layer of irony because I was
about to say there's no

474
00:20:01,870 --> 00:20:04,480
priorities, right.
It's just just do the whole

475
00:20:04,490 --> 00:20:07,610
curriculum.
But then priorities do emerge in

476
00:20:07,620 --> 00:20:10,690
uppercase stage 2.
Not for the right reason, you

477
00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:12,280
know.
The priority should be what you

478
00:20:12,290 --> 00:20:13,540
just said.
It should be what are the most

479
00:20:13,550 --> 00:20:15,980
important life skills.
Let's make sure they're honed in

480
00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:18,860
on 1st at the bottom of the pile
will do ratio.

481
00:20:18,930 --> 00:20:21,220
We'll do a bit of algebra.
They can do that later and they

482
00:20:21,230 --> 00:20:22,990
don't need to do that.
Now they can do that in year

483
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,710
seven like you know multiply
fractions but what really

484
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:30,460
happens is what has the most
marks in the sats that's the

485
00:20:30,470 --> 00:20:33,440
most important thing Now you
know ohh every teacher is

486
00:20:33,450 --> 00:20:36,440
conditioned to think well
actually you know we we need to

487
00:20:36,450 --> 00:20:39,020
teach them these certain things
of arithmetic cause they come

488
00:20:39,030 --> 00:20:42,520
that comes up the most algebra I
was only ever one or two marks a

489
00:20:42,530 --> 00:20:45,620
year would that we won't do that
this year time there's only

490
00:20:45,630 --> 00:20:47,300
there's only ever one or two
marks that you might get If

491
00:20:47,310 --> 00:20:49,740
you're unlucky there'll be a
duration problem question in one

492
00:20:49,750 --> 00:20:53,030
of the papers we won't do that
so hang on that's that's like

493
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,380
the most important life skill
there but it's only one mark by

494
00:20:56,390 --> 00:20:58,540
fractions of amounts.
There's like 5 or 6 questions on

495
00:20:58,550 --> 00:21:00,420
that and just get fractions in
general.

496
00:21:00,430 --> 00:21:02,040
So we'll we'll do that.
We'll do lots of that.

497
00:21:02,670 --> 00:21:04,220
And it's like, yeah, the
priorities are kind of all

498
00:21:04,230 --> 00:21:05,620
wrong.
If we're thinking about the

499
00:21:05,630 --> 00:21:08,200
purpose of school being to set
kids up for their future and

500
00:21:08,210 --> 00:21:12,220
like, generally just being able
to do life, the Sats don't

501
00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:14,080
really correspond with that.
But we will talk about that.

502
00:21:14,090 --> 00:21:16,070
I know we're gonna have a proper
conversation about Sats in the

503
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:17,260
future episode.
So if you're into that sort of

504
00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:19,480
stuff and you want to hear a bit
more about Sats, we're gonna get

505
00:21:19,490 --> 00:21:21,810
a really awesome guest on that,
Won't say it right now, and

506
00:21:21,820 --> 00:21:24,510
we're going to talk a little bit
more about Sats and other

507
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,070
struggles with school.
Amazing, right?

508
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:28,600
Guys, Listen, that's a lovely
intro.

509
00:21:28,610 --> 00:21:31,430
We kind of went off piece there,
but I like those conversations

510
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,140
and hopefully you listeners do
as well.

511
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,250
Guys, quick one from me.
Hey, let's feeling poorly, OK,

512
00:21:36,260 --> 00:21:37,970
It's Sunday.
We've left it quite late to this

513
00:21:37,980 --> 00:21:40,660
podcast, so you're getting one.
That's the good news.

514
00:21:40,670 --> 00:21:43,510
You're getting a podcast.
The bad news is Hayden's gonna

515
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,900
have to ad Lib the little intro
now because we're not gonna edit

516
00:21:45,910 --> 00:21:47,190
this, we're just gonna put it
out as it is.

517
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,090
So let's go to a little intro.
Skit Hayden, over to you.

518
00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:52,270
Ohh, why did the jungle?
Yeah, Jingle.

519
00:21:52,320 --> 00:22:00,810
I can think of the.
Way you did the OK, but repeat,

520
00:22:00,820 --> 00:22:03,370
no, no, I'm doing it mate.
You said I'm doing it.

521
00:22:03,380 --> 00:22:05,010
You've ruined.
You've ruined my bit and now I

522
00:22:05,020 --> 00:22:08,150
can't edit that out.
I'm fed up.

523
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,390
With this I I'm sorry.
I'm stopping you.

524
00:22:11,460 --> 00:22:13,200
I'm stopping you.
They're all gonna get to see

525
00:22:13,210 --> 00:22:14,960
what happens behind the scenes.
I normally edit this out.

526
00:22:14,970 --> 00:22:16,570
I'm having one of my panic
attacks.

527
00:22:17,180 --> 00:22:20,130
All right, I'm fed up with you
interrupting me.

528
00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:23,100
I'm so sorry.
I'm hating Hater.

529
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:24,320
Please, can we?
Yeah.

530
00:22:24,330 --> 00:22:26,560
Would you would you please?
I'm sorry, Overlord, Sir.

531
00:22:26,870 --> 00:22:29,000
Well, that'll be no.
Can you please edit this part

532
00:22:29,010 --> 00:22:31,400
out so that no one knows that
the real dynamic between us is

533
00:22:31,410 --> 00:22:33,440
that you are absolutely in
charge of me and intimidating

534
00:22:33,450 --> 00:22:35,340
every every.
Time and I get you to pretend to

535
00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:37,180
be the boss.
Yeah, is it can?

536
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:38,700
I will let it out.
All right.

537
00:22:38,710 --> 00:22:39,970
You got one more warning or
you're?

538
00:22:39,980 --> 00:22:41,900
Out.
I'm going to be the boss when I

539
00:22:41,910 --> 00:22:45,230
come back.
I meant to silence.

540
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,270
Imagine would make everyone sit
there for one minute.

541
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:49,970
Complete silence.
Making it through this.

542
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:51,470
Yeah.
Anyway, moving on.

543
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,760
So go on, tell.
Ohh, I can go.

544
00:22:54,770 --> 00:22:57,010
Thank you.
Yeah, so my skits over.

545
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,180
We had a little Instagram poll,
a quick dip for our Instagram.

546
00:23:01,190 --> 00:23:02,570
We don't have a sponsor on this
podcast.

547
00:23:02,620 --> 00:23:05,410
So I always say this.
Our sponsor is ourselves.

548
00:23:05,420 --> 00:23:06,110
No, No, no.
No.

549
00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:06,670
No.
No.

550
00:23:06,740 --> 00:23:09,910
No sponsor is ourselves.
Is it OK?

551
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:15,010
Yeah, someone else.
Yeah, he's got, he's got a lot

552
00:23:15,020 --> 00:23:16,990
of free airtime.
If anyone wants to go back to

553
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,430
previous ones who has very
grateful for you, by the way,

554
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,420
you know you are.
Anyway, we don't have a sponsor

555
00:23:22,430 --> 00:23:25,410
on this podcast, so can you go
and follow us on Instagram at

556
00:23:25,420 --> 00:23:28,650
teacher repeat podcast?
I post memes, I post funnies, I

557
00:23:28,660 --> 00:23:32,020
post stories where you can do a
poll and it links in exactly to

558
00:23:32,030 --> 00:23:33,750
this episode today.
So we're going to talk all about

559
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:34,990
settings.
Sorry, one second.

560
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,150
Hello, James.
No, he's not.

561
00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:39,790
Cancel the payment.
He's not mentioned the financial

562
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,270
planning in this episode.
Don't worry about it, mate.

563
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:43,430
No.
So I'll speak to you soon.

564
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:44,430
Speak to you soon.
Sorry, Bill.

565
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,710
We'll edit that out.
So it's weird, this episode

566
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,430
where we're not editing.
That's way more than ever, no.

567
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,670
Anyway, this episode we're
talking all about setting.

568
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,610
Now this is a hot topic.
I would say it was a hot topic

569
00:23:59,660 --> 00:24:02,780
about eight years ago.
It feels like in general the

570
00:24:02,790 --> 00:24:06,310
profession is kind of agreed
where where this should go, but

571
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:09,170
it's almost like a silent
agreement about setting in

572
00:24:09,180 --> 00:24:12,850
schools based on ability.
Now in secondary school, it is

573
00:24:12,860 --> 00:24:16,270
highly, highly, highly likely if
you walk into one that they are

574
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,110
being set based on ability.
And I think the older children

575
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:22,460
get, the more we kind of accept
that where whatever routes

576
00:24:22,470 --> 00:24:24,590
they're taking through their
education, there is a need to

577
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:29,900
set to keep them going through
education until 16/17/18 and it

578
00:24:29,910 --> 00:24:34,030
being suitable for them.
However, in primary school I I'd

579
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,330
say about 8 to 10 years ago
probably when we were starting

580
00:24:36,340 --> 00:24:39,690
our teaching to be fair, there
was a huge shift in the

581
00:24:39,700 --> 00:24:43,930
narrative as to whether or not
we should be setting children in

582
00:24:43,940 --> 00:24:46,070
primary school based on their
ability.

583
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,410
Now, hey there, before we get
into all of the research and

584
00:24:48,420 --> 00:24:52,350
have our debate, yeah, I did a
quick Instagram poll to our

585
00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:56,460
listeners asking them do they
set OK and there were four

586
00:24:56,470 --> 00:24:58,640
options.
I asked them if you work in a

587
00:24:58,650 --> 00:25:00,040
primary schools, this is all
primary school.

588
00:25:00,740 --> 00:25:02,510
Do you set for maths and
English?

589
00:25:02,740 --> 00:25:06,450
Do you set just for maths?
Do you set just for English or

590
00:25:06,460 --> 00:25:09,040
do you not set at all?
What I want you to do Hayden, is

591
00:25:09,050 --> 00:25:11,150
just reason and justify what you
think.

592
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:12,950
The national outlook is based on
our little poll.

593
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:14,390
So what would you go for?
What would you?

594
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:15,990
Say is the.
I'm guessing the percentages,

595
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:16,610
sort of.
Thing, Yeah.

596
00:25:16,620 --> 00:25:18,950
What do you think the real
outlook is when we look at now

597
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,610
not?
I I reckon, I reckon more than

598
00:25:21,620 --> 00:25:25,120
50% have said yes for maths I
reckon.

599
00:25:25,130 --> 00:25:29,590
I reckon that's the highest one
personally, and I reckon a lot

600
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,660
of people still set for English,
but I think it's lower.

601
00:25:32,130 --> 00:25:34,030
I think it's lower.
I reckon it's lower than 50%.

602
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:35,770
That's kind of go that probably
encompasses.

603
00:25:35,780 --> 00:25:36,460
Everything.
What about?

604
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:37,910
What about people who don't set
at all?

605
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,760
Um, I think less than less than
50I reckon 40 to 50%.

606
00:25:45,030 --> 00:25:46,600
OK.
These these do have to add up to

607
00:25:46,610 --> 00:25:50,290
100 haters.
Wait ohh yeah.

608
00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:51,680
He's only voting for one.
Aren't they?

609
00:25:51,690 --> 00:25:54,660
Right, Yeah.
Yeah, so either you can't set

610
00:25:54,670 --> 00:25:57,340
for maths and English and set
for either maths or English.

611
00:25:57,390 --> 00:25:59,790
So you've got to just choose.
One's gonna take one more time

612
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,580
because obviously.
It's still work.

613
00:26:02,590 --> 00:26:07,250
I said less than 5050.
It could be 10, I think More, I

614
00:26:07,260 --> 00:26:13,320
think 5050 to 60%, Fifty to 50
to 60, I reckon set for just a

615
00:26:13,330 --> 00:26:14,420
mass.
OK.

616
00:26:14,430 --> 00:26:15,900
And how much set?
Not at all.

617
00:26:16,530 --> 00:26:21,160
And not at all.
I reckon 3030% OK, what about

618
00:26:21,170 --> 00:26:23,340
just English ones?
Just English, Whatever.

619
00:26:23,350 --> 00:26:24,580
The rest is divided between the
two.

620
00:26:26,010 --> 00:26:28,490
You think about thank you for
your fantastic input Hayden.

621
00:26:28,500 --> 00:26:31,060
Here are the options.
Does your school set based on

622
00:26:31,070 --> 00:26:35,310
ability?
56% do not set at all.

623
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:42,840
Ah, that's more than I thought.
22% set just for Maths, 19% set

624
00:26:42,850 --> 00:26:48,420
for Maths and for English and
only 3% set just for English.

625
00:26:48,510 --> 00:26:51,150
That's interesting.
So it tends to be then based on

626
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,240
that poll that you you have a
set or you don't.

627
00:26:53,290 --> 00:26:55,080
It's kind of like you set for
everything or not.

628
00:26:55,370 --> 00:26:58,620
Yeah, yeah, well not well, just
for maths was the 2nd, so they

629
00:26:58,630 --> 00:27:00,580
don't set for English.
Yeah, that was quite close,

630
00:27:00,590 --> 00:27:01,810
wasn't it?
It was quite close to.

631
00:27:01,890 --> 00:27:06,920
So 56 I'd say sit here. 78% of
people don't set for English,

632
00:27:07,130 --> 00:27:08,560
that's what the results of this
is.

633
00:27:08,970 --> 00:27:12,040
And the results for this as well
is for in terms of maths.

634
00:27:12,570 --> 00:27:16,390
Is 58% don't set for maths, so
it's much more likely that

635
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:17,370
people.
Set for us.

636
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,200
Yeah, that's interesting.
So what do you think about that?

637
00:27:21,210 --> 00:27:23,580
What are your initial thoughts,
Tatum?

638
00:27:23,590 --> 00:27:28,270
Because OK, we've worked well.
I've worked in settings where

639
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,570
I've done all of the different
ways you could possibly do

640
00:27:30,580 --> 00:27:32,550
stuff.
I've worked, yeah, where you set

641
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,420
for mass.
I've worked in higher ability

642
00:27:34,430 --> 00:27:36,590
mouse, lower ability mass.
I've worked in mixed ability

643
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,670
maths.
I've worked in set English, low

644
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,250
ability English, high ability
English, and I've worked in mix.

645
00:27:41,260 --> 00:27:42,640
So there's not one I haven't
done.

646
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,150
Yeah.
So I'm going to take a step back

647
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,150
here.
What's what's your opinion on

648
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,590
the question?
Should we set from ability when

649
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,050
it comes to maths and English in
a primary?

650
00:27:52,060 --> 00:27:53,590
School.
I'm going to separate it just

651
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,330
from a minute to maths for a SEC
anymore because I I do think

652
00:27:56,340 --> 00:27:59,260
maths and English are very
different and we'll get on to

653
00:27:59,270 --> 00:28:01,580
that as to why.
But just going back in time a

654
00:28:01,590 --> 00:28:03,820
bit when when we started our
careers and obviously like you

655
00:28:03,830 --> 00:28:05,760
said, it was quite a hot topic.
And it definitely was back then

656
00:28:05,770 --> 00:28:08,850
because I think it was very
common to to set and people were

657
00:28:08,860 --> 00:28:10,410
starting to be like hey actually
we shouldn't do this.

658
00:28:10,420 --> 00:28:12,670
And there's loads of research
and I remember being really,

659
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,100
really pro all of the research
what it was saying was not

660
00:28:17,110 --> 00:28:19,600
setting and and I remember being
the master in our in a school we

661
00:28:19,610 --> 00:28:23,570
worked in at the time and I was
very keen to try and adhere to

662
00:28:23,580 --> 00:28:26,320
this sort of guidance and be
like no, actually let's stop

663
00:28:26,330 --> 00:28:29,060
because we had like 6 way sets.
Do you remember in that there's

664
00:28:29,070 --> 00:28:32,700
a big school, Um, I was like,
no, this is what the research

665
00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:35,120
says.
So I was very pro mixed ability.

666
00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:39,140
But over the years through
experience I have completely

667
00:28:39,150 --> 00:28:42,830
flipped the other way.
I'm not completely, there's a

668
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,730
bit of a middle ground, but I'm
I'm way more pro setting now

669
00:28:45,740 --> 00:28:48,970
than I am.
Mixed ability in maths and not

670
00:28:48,980 --> 00:28:52,370
quite the same in English.
Uh, and jump to dive into the

671
00:28:52,380 --> 00:28:53,930
reasons now.
Or do we want to say that?

672
00:28:54,260 --> 00:28:55,510
No, it's it's interesting.
Yeah.

673
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,450
Because let's let's just for one
second think about it because I

674
00:28:58,460 --> 00:29:01,260
think where I'm going to play
this now, I'm going to play it

675
00:29:01,270 --> 00:29:04,290
from the other role of really
adhering to the research because

676
00:29:04,300 --> 00:29:07,330
I think it's important as
educators to do both.

677
00:29:07,340 --> 00:29:11,040
I think it's really important as
educators to read and keep up

678
00:29:11,050 --> 00:29:14,630
with research and understand
that it's gone for a scientific

679
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:15,710
method.
You know we can't.

680
00:29:15,780 --> 00:29:18,410
You can't actually.
You know, if it's based on a lot

681
00:29:18,420 --> 00:29:20,810
of research that's done well,
it's hard to argue against

682
00:29:20,820 --> 00:29:23,340
research.
However, I do believe that it's

683
00:29:23,350 --> 00:29:27,080
a very unique job in that, you
know, you live it, you live and

684
00:29:27,090 --> 00:29:29,340
breathe it every single day.
So you're gonna form your own

685
00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:30,920
opinion as well.
So I think it's important to do

686
00:29:30,930 --> 00:29:32,700
both.
Maybe I'll learn more towards

687
00:29:32,710 --> 00:29:35,460
the objective and you can learn
more towards the experience.

688
00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:38,030
Sure.
So you said there's a difference

689
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,540
between when it comes to maths
and English.

690
00:29:40,770 --> 00:29:44,380
So before I really want you to
set out that store a little bit

691
00:29:44,390 --> 00:29:47,730
and then we can maybe talk about
why you think it's beneficial in

692
00:29:47,740 --> 00:29:50,020
those contexts.
So I assume that you're saying

693
00:29:50,030 --> 00:29:52,400
you think it's more beneficial
in maths or it's more suited to

694
00:29:52,410 --> 00:29:53,430
maths.
I think it.

695
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,850
Is.
I think it is more beneficial in

696
00:29:55,860 --> 00:30:00,440
maths to set by ability.
I think generally I'll go into

697
00:30:00,450 --> 00:30:03,450
why, but with a bit of pretence
of what I think the research is.

698
00:30:03,460 --> 00:30:06,220
Now, I haven't actually seen the
research in many years, so I am

699
00:30:06,230 --> 00:30:08,170
very much just going off of what
I think it will say and you

700
00:30:08,180 --> 00:30:10,030
might be able to enlighten me.
With yeah, I've had a quick

701
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,440
look.
So I've got some, I've got them,

702
00:30:11,450 --> 00:30:14,380
you know, overarching results of
most of the research here so I

703
00:30:14,390 --> 00:30:17,200
can twinkle in as we go.
So in my understanding, the

704
00:30:17,210 --> 00:30:20,080
general research back when I was
looking into it was that setting

705
00:30:20,090 --> 00:30:23,420
was worse for the children
because of the like how it

706
00:30:23,430 --> 00:30:26,070
affected them mentally, right?
They, you know, children aren't

707
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,160
stupid enough to know that, to
not know what set they're in.

708
00:30:29,230 --> 00:30:30,870
Like they're very quickly will
work out.

709
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,790
Ohh, I mean the bottom set mass,
that means I'm rubbish at maths

710
00:30:33,900 --> 00:30:36,450
and therefore I'm not really
gonna bother with it cause I

711
00:30:36,460 --> 00:30:38,490
think I'm terrible.
And that to me was kind of the

712
00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:40,510
underpinning idea of the
research, which was, which was

713
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,690
that let's stop doing that to
kids because we're putting a

714
00:30:42,700 --> 00:30:45,550
ceiling on them straight away.
We're telling them in the bottom

715
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,380
set they're never actually going
to achieve more than that.

716
00:30:47,390 --> 00:30:48,660
We're already telling them in
that box.

717
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,180
And I was like, yeah, yeah,
yeah, definitely, definitely.

718
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,790
But then through experience, I
think math is so nuanced, like

719
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,360
with, you know, even just
talking about the, the

720
00:30:58,370 --> 00:31:00,640
foundational stuff we talked
about earlier, right, Kids that

721
00:31:00,650 --> 00:31:02,950
can double, Kids that can't,
kids that can read the time,

722
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,750
kids that can't.
I think maths is so underpinned

723
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,530
by like this massive, massive
massive variety of skills that

724
00:31:09,540 --> 00:31:12,790
totally sets kids apart in terms
of their ability to like, reason

725
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,050
and problem solve with the
repetitive skills they might may

726
00:31:15,060 --> 00:31:20,060
or may not have that I think in
a mixed ability class I I think

727
00:31:20,070 --> 00:31:24,100
personally I think the average
teacher is not able in a class

728
00:31:24,110 --> 00:31:28,220
of 32 completely mixed kids to
meet the needs of those children

729
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:31,560
sufficiently enough.
I think they'll meet the needs

730
00:31:31,570 --> 00:31:34,400
of a group of children in that
class, but I but I think that

731
00:31:34,410 --> 00:31:37,710
will often either skim off the
the top ability children who

732
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,210
will absolutely not be getting a
sufficient level of like

733
00:31:41,220 --> 00:31:43,840
planning and teaching and
lessons and tasks, or it will be

734
00:31:43,850 --> 00:31:45,930
the other end.
It will be the lowest children I

735
00:31:45,940 --> 00:31:47,840
think is quite common.
OK.

736
00:31:47,900 --> 00:31:50,280
So I'm going to come in with
basically a part of the research

737
00:31:50,290 --> 00:31:52,000
here.
The overwhelming results of the

738
00:31:52,010 --> 00:31:54,210
research would be interesting to
come off the back of what you've

739
00:31:54,220 --> 00:31:59,450
just said is that when it comes
to setting, OK, when you look at

740
00:31:59,460 --> 00:32:03,130
the outcomes, firstly it's a
marginal difference

741
00:32:03,140 --> 00:32:05,220
entertainment.
So you know that this difference

742
00:32:05,230 --> 00:32:07,560
is is small, it's not
substantial, it's not moderate,

743
00:32:07,570 --> 00:32:09,920
it is marginal.
So you know it has a marginal

744
00:32:09,930 --> 00:32:12,520
difference on attainment.
But this is the way it goes.

745
00:32:12,530 --> 00:32:16,460
If you're a higher ability
child, working in a mixed

746
00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:20,030
setting is slightly worse for
your attainment.

747
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,390
So when you set the higher
ability children tend to do

748
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,110
better.
Yeah, yeah.

749
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,250
When you, when you set for lower
ability children in mixed

750
00:32:28,260 --> 00:32:30,370
ability, it tends to be better
for them.

751
00:32:30,420 --> 00:32:33,850
So when you set, it tends to
have a marginal negative impact

752
00:32:33,860 --> 00:32:37,540
on your lower just widens the
just widens, it widens the gap

753
00:32:37,550 --> 00:32:39,290
when you set.
And that is the huge argument

754
00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:41,010
against doing it.
Yeah.

755
00:32:41,020 --> 00:32:43,470
How would you reply to that if
someone said, look, this is the

756
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,450
research, whether it's marginal
or not, it seems like, OK, you

757
00:32:47,460 --> 00:32:49,710
seem to think that we could
avoid the social stigma and

758
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,650
we'll talk about that in a
second, but let's focus on the

759
00:32:51,660 --> 00:32:53,200
attainment.
How would you come back to

760
00:32:53,210 --> 00:32:55,480
someone who says, well, look,
the research says it it why does

761
00:32:55,490 --> 00:32:58,800
the attainment gap that's bad?
OK, so I've got 2 two things to

762
00:32:58,810 --> 00:33:01,030
say about this then.
So I firstly, I don't disagree

763
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,180
with the research.
I think that's obviously like,

764
00:33:03,390 --> 00:33:05,260
who am I to be?
Like, no, that's wrong.

765
00:33:05,330 --> 00:33:07,960
They happened to research the
wrong group of children.

766
00:33:07,970 --> 00:33:09,200
No, of course that's clearly
happening.

767
00:33:09,210 --> 00:33:11,700
And I think it actually makes
sense that obviously if you if

768
00:33:11,710 --> 00:33:14,440
you have a mixed ability class,
it just squashes the ends in

769
00:33:14,550 --> 00:33:16,260
because we're not superhuman.
So.

770
00:33:16,270 --> 00:33:19,660
So my first point is, is about
that in terms of, I think when

771
00:33:19,670 --> 00:33:22,150
it comes to educational
research, generally I agree with

772
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,230
it, but sometimes there's a lot
of idealism, which it's like the

773
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,050
whole Instagram versus reality
situation for me.

774
00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:32,030
I do think sometimes it's like
cool, that's great research, but

775
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,460
it does kind of rely on teachers
doing an unholy amount of work

776
00:33:37,310 --> 00:33:39,580
to be able to attain that.
Now if you're lucky enough to be

777
00:33:39,590 --> 00:33:42,640
in in like a a bigger school,
you might be able to shout that

778
00:33:42,650 --> 00:33:45,230
planning.
But if you're in let's say A1

779
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,900
form or two form and it's
suddenly like, OK, you've got

780
00:33:47,910 --> 00:33:50,960
you've got like 6 sort of levels
of differentiation you need to

781
00:33:50,970 --> 00:33:53,240
consider in this class because
you just happened to potluck.

782
00:33:53,310 --> 00:33:55,900
You just happen to have children
that are working way below the

783
00:33:55,910 --> 00:33:57,990
the the key stage.
You've got children that sort of

784
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,100
working towards children that
are kind of nearing expected.

785
00:34:00,110 --> 00:34:02,660
You got children expected,
children solid expected and

786
00:34:02,670 --> 00:34:06,320
you've just got to teach a
lesson to them because mixed

787
00:34:06,330 --> 00:34:07,790
ability is better.
So off you go.

788
00:34:08,730 --> 00:34:12,040
It's like, well, for that to be
a good standard in my opinion,

789
00:34:12,110 --> 00:34:15,920
would require a hell of a lot of
work and understanding to be

790
00:34:15,929 --> 00:34:18,580
able to do so, and I don't think
it's realistic to to be able to

791
00:34:18,590 --> 00:34:22,030
maintain that level of work.
So why is it different in sets?

792
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,320
Yeah, why is it different in
sets?

793
00:34:23,330 --> 00:34:25,360
Let's carry on.
Now, why do you find that we're

794
00:34:25,370 --> 00:34:25,889
setting?
Then?

795
00:34:25,900 --> 00:34:30,040
That's not a problem.
So in that huge scope of

796
00:34:30,050 --> 00:34:33,080
children going from your maybe
like a two years behind the

797
00:34:33,090 --> 00:34:35,139
curriculum to someone that's
working at really high grade

798
00:34:35,150 --> 00:34:38,920
depth is now is now squished
into OK, you've actually just

799
00:34:38,929 --> 00:34:42,600
got the children now are
floating around expected that

800
00:34:42,610 --> 00:34:44,520
you know that that yeah the
difference the difference

801
00:34:44,530 --> 00:34:46,420
between the lowest ability and
high quality child in your class

802
00:34:46,429 --> 00:34:49,330
is much closer.
So you can really hone in on a

803
00:34:49,340 --> 00:34:53,889
lesson that will cater to them
all much more much will probably

804
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,210
cater to them all than it would
do.

805
00:34:55,260 --> 00:34:59,700
Can we be Can I dive in a bit
more to that So with with maths

806
00:34:59,710 --> 00:35:03,180
I this is something I found in
the past when I when I'm because

807
00:35:03,190 --> 00:35:05,060
I teach at the minute in terms
of a bit mixed.

808
00:35:05,110 --> 00:35:08,020
I we teach in a setting system
and I think that has lots of

809
00:35:08,030 --> 00:35:11,840
pros but one thing for sure I
found is that you are kind of

810
00:35:11,850 --> 00:35:15,110
leaning into that shoehorning
effect of what you've just said

811
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,800
there in terms of OK well we've
set now so I've got this group

812
00:35:17,810 --> 00:35:20,860
of children and they're kind of
in this slice of the ability

813
00:35:20,870 --> 00:35:23,650
spectrum and that means that OK
I'm going to now plan my

814
00:35:23,660 --> 00:35:26,250
fraction unit and I know they're
having this splice and wait a

815
00:35:26,260 --> 00:35:28,740
minute it just so happens that
these exact same children are in

816
00:35:28,750 --> 00:35:31,270
this exact same splice when it
comes to you and the four

817
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,100
operations and how how strange
when it's time as well and I

818
00:35:35,110 --> 00:35:38,510
think with maths it's it and and
obviously English but in general

819
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,610
it's it's actually you know
that's not how it really works

820
00:35:41,620 --> 00:35:44,550
is it Even when you set you know
from from strand to strand

821
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,990
you're gonna have huge variances
in a who in your set can do

822
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,270
certain things and.
B.

823
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,600
The breadth of that.
So do you not think we kind of

824
00:35:51,610 --> 00:35:53,780
face those problems anyway when
it comes to setting?

825
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,950
Well, not massively, because I
think, let's just take your

826
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,950
analogy there of and it's quite
a common thing, isn't it, that

827
00:36:00,090 --> 00:36:03,300
children could be really able in
shape and space, but actually

828
00:36:03,310 --> 00:36:05,100
not so much in the four
operations.

829
00:36:05,110 --> 00:36:06,810
And that's.
And we often set children based

830
00:36:06,820 --> 00:36:08,350
on their arithmetic
understanding, right.

831
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,930
So it's a bit like that's unfair
because some of those children

832
00:36:10,940 --> 00:36:12,930
that greater depth set actually
aren't as good as shape and

833
00:36:12,940 --> 00:36:14,970
space as those children you just
put in that lower set.

834
00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:17,520
But I don't necessarily think
that's a massive problem because

835
00:36:17,530 --> 00:36:20,240
I think if they're in a set, the
point is the teacher, a good

836
00:36:20,250 --> 00:36:22,080
teacher, will be reacting to
their needs anyway.

837
00:36:22,130 --> 00:36:25,340
So who cares if the lower set,
as we caught, you know as

838
00:36:25,350 --> 00:36:28,170
someone might call them, who
cares if they're doing shape and

839
00:36:28,180 --> 00:36:30,890
space lessons at the same level
as the other group.

840
00:36:30,970 --> 00:36:33,620
They don't have to just do lower
stuff because they're lower.

841
00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:35,700
That's when it goes wrong.
I think that's when I think it's

842
00:36:35,710 --> 00:36:39,040
bad, which is that the ceiling
is put on from day one of Nope,

843
00:36:39,050 --> 00:36:41,320
those children liabilities.
So don't even give them the

844
00:36:41,330 --> 00:36:43,560
chance now in any area of maths
to excel.

845
00:36:43,630 --> 00:36:45,020
It's no, you still have to adapt
to them.

846
00:36:45,030 --> 00:36:47,890
It's just that you might find in
some areas they're they're

847
00:36:47,900 --> 00:36:50,460
really weak and you have to go
right back for that set.

848
00:36:50,470 --> 00:36:52,910
And luckily you can now just
hone in on that skill, because

849
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,230
you've got no one in your set
that is actually working higher

850
00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:57,800
than that level.
But then when it comes to shape

851
00:36:57,950 --> 00:37:00,460
or, you know, just jump geometry
in general, actually they're

852
00:37:00,470 --> 00:37:02,480
just working at curriculum
standard and as a teacher you

853
00:37:02,490 --> 00:37:04,600
need to be able to adapt your
lessons to realise that they're

854
00:37:04,610 --> 00:37:08,170
working at that level.
So do you think that adapting to

855
00:37:08,180 --> 00:37:11,940
your children in that way,
you're just making your life

856
00:37:11,950 --> 00:37:14,230
harder by making by by going
into sets?

857
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:17,110
Because as soon if you're in
mixed ability, you're going to

858
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:18,870
plan for that anyway.
So what you're essentially

859
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,060
saying is you should plan for
them to not have a ceiling and

860
00:37:21,070 --> 00:37:23,410
be able to do anything, because
we don't wanna put a ceiling on

861
00:37:23,420 --> 00:37:25,770
them, but also we put them into
sets.

862
00:37:25,940 --> 00:37:28,720
So why not just have them in
mixed ability and then take that

863
00:37:28,730 --> 00:37:31,510
sealing off anyway?
Just because I think it is just

864
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,570
more to do.
I think if you had that same

865
00:37:33,580 --> 00:37:35,850
analogy with the shape and
space, if you had a mixed

866
00:37:35,860 --> 00:37:38,960
ability class, and again the
same, you know, same thing with

867
00:37:38,970 --> 00:37:42,150
the arithmetic, they're going to
be lessons where perhaps your

868
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:43,820
children need like maybe like 5
or 6.

869
00:37:43,830 --> 00:37:47,550
Your children in your class need
to be working at a considerably

870
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,830
lower level than others, and
they need your attention, and

871
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,400
it's way hard inside, but
they're all much closer

872
00:37:54,410 --> 00:37:56,350
together, so you can take the
whole class on that journey

873
00:37:56,630 --> 00:37:58,640
without.
Without worrying, I suppose,

874
00:37:58,950 --> 00:38:00,420
yeah.
I suppose what I'm saying is

875
00:38:00,470 --> 00:38:03,540
sometimes the tops in that lower
set that you've predetermined

876
00:38:03,770 --> 00:38:06,450
are just you just, you just said
there at the level of the great

877
00:38:06,460 --> 00:38:09,200
depth group.
So that's the same breakfast,

878
00:38:09,210 --> 00:38:10,980
the mixed ability.
You've still got the same

879
00:38:10,990 --> 00:38:12,340
planning?
Yeah, absolutely right.

880
00:38:12,350 --> 00:38:14,100
It's just way less likely in my
opinion.

881
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,270
It's just more manageable that
that's all it is, you know, I'm

882
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:17,680
not saying it doesn't happen
anymore.

883
00:38:17,750 --> 00:38:20,990
I'm just saying that going from
a scope this big everyday to a

884
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,250
scope this big every day with
the maybe the odd objective

885
00:38:24,260 --> 00:38:26,240
where when your kid goes oh
you're actually you're you're

886
00:38:26,250 --> 00:38:28,860
actually at that level and you
know we need to have a few

887
00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:30,900
things in the in the bag ready
to give you.

888
00:38:31,030 --> 00:38:32,970
I just think it's more
manageable that's all and I

889
00:38:32,980 --> 00:38:34,040
think you can get better
outcomes.

890
00:38:34,050 --> 00:38:36,080
But going back to your original
question, cause there was an

891
00:38:36,090 --> 00:38:40,010
overarching point that I was
trying to get to, which is that

892
00:38:40,020 --> 00:38:41,790
one the research is really
interesting, she said.

893
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,270
It kind of squashes the tops in
and they don't make as much

894
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,730
progress that the higher ability
children, but equally it hinders

895
00:38:47,740 --> 00:38:50,150
the sorry, it brings up the
lower ability children being in

896
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:51,500
a mixed ability set and I
imagine.

897
00:38:51,510 --> 00:38:52,730
That that's what I make, by the
way.

898
00:38:52,740 --> 00:38:54,610
That's what I mean by the way,
when I'm making these arguments

899
00:38:54,620 --> 00:38:58,390
to you now is, you know, we will
help shift those children up

900
00:38:58,400 --> 00:38:59,710
more if they're with the other
group.

901
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:01,130
Like, I'm looking at the lower
end here.

902
00:39:01,140 --> 00:39:02,440
Yeah.
So that is kind of what I'm

903
00:39:02,450 --> 00:39:05,540
hinting at, yeah.
So my my actual, the start of

904
00:39:05,550 --> 00:39:07,510
this conversation.
I said I'm not completely in

905
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,410
favour of setting because I've
kind of in my opinion kind of

906
00:39:10,420 --> 00:39:11,720
middle ground.
I think you have to because

907
00:39:11,730 --> 00:39:15,580
we've we've sort of applied this
process at our school a bit and

908
00:39:15,590 --> 00:39:19,660
my opinion is that those those
really high ability children, I

909
00:39:19,670 --> 00:39:22,900
I actually think it's beneficial
for them to come out and and go

910
00:39:22,910 --> 00:39:27,020
and work at a higher faster pace
working on harder stuff and you

911
00:39:27,030 --> 00:39:28,840
know providing with that
progress they make that they're

912
00:39:28,850 --> 00:39:30,420
now missing for being in a mixed
ability set.

913
00:39:30,470 --> 00:39:34,180
But what I don't think we should
do is do the same thing to the

914
00:39:34,190 --> 00:39:37,860
lowest children because I think
it's it's inverted in terms of

915
00:39:37,870 --> 00:39:39,560
the psychological effect it has
on children.

916
00:39:39,710 --> 00:39:42,500
The point is with the lower
ability children finding out

917
00:39:42,510 --> 00:39:45,790
you're rubbish at something is
really bad and then you don't

918
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,240
want to do it and you make less
progress.

919
00:39:47,290 --> 00:39:49,460
Finding out your greatest
something for you on a personal

920
00:39:49,470 --> 00:39:52,320
level doesn't make you then like
worse at that thing.

921
00:39:52,330 --> 00:39:55,010
Like I think that's OK.
But with the lower ability

922
00:39:55,020 --> 00:39:59,050
children, it's like I think as
much as possible we should be

923
00:39:59,100 --> 00:40:03,350
mixing like 66% of the cohort I
think of your top third going

924
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,740
out.
Or even you know what it depends

925
00:40:05,750 --> 00:40:08,800
on you know what size to be fair
you could have like 300 kids in

926
00:40:08,810 --> 00:40:11,100
the in the year group obviously
doesn't happen but in that case

927
00:40:11,110 --> 00:40:14,380
you might you might only take
out the top 5% because you got a

928
00:40:14,390 --> 00:40:17,320
much bigger cohort.
But yeah, I think as as where

929
00:40:17,330 --> 00:40:21,560
possible we should be utilising
the benefits of mixed ability on

930
00:40:21,570 --> 00:40:26,470
their mindset, but trying to be
rooted in reality a bit more in

931
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:31,020
that it is just unmanageable to
plan really top tier lessons to

932
00:40:31,030 --> 00:40:33,850
a massive scope of children.
Let's just let's just half that

933
00:40:33,860 --> 00:40:36,180
scope a bit by taking the kind
of expected and lower ability

934
00:40:36,190 --> 00:40:39,680
children put them together.
So, OK, in that case then let's

935
00:40:39,690 --> 00:40:43,130
let's like flip the flip the
thing to English because we kind

936
00:40:43,140 --> 00:40:45,940
of having a massive mindset for
now and I'm going to kind of

937
00:40:45,950 --> 00:40:47,640
back you up here.
I want to extrapolate on this

938
00:40:47,650 --> 00:40:50,720
because it it is, I don't think
anyone, unless you've

939
00:40:50,730 --> 00:40:54,670
experienced trying to do it
teaching mixed ability English

940
00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:59,070
with a group of children who
cannot read in your class and a

941
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,670
group of children who are
reading, you know, the works of

942
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:07,270
Jane Eyre and they're like 10.
That that is, to me, crazy.

943
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,890
And I still have never heard
anyone really properly explained

944
00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:13,190
because you're exactly right.
We we've had spelling training

945
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,060
lately.
We've had loads of training in

946
00:41:15,070 --> 00:41:16,510
the past.
Anyone who's a teacher, worked

947
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,230
in education, will have training
sometimes and you'll think that

948
00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:22,190
sounds great on paper.
But can you answer my 4

949
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,730
questions about how in this
exact situation, which I'm in

950
00:41:24,740 --> 00:41:26,940
right now in a class, how this
would remotely help?

951
00:41:27,010 --> 00:41:29,300
And they honestly never really
have an answer.

952
00:41:29,310 --> 00:41:32,060
So my big question with whole
class reading, for example, I

953
00:41:32,070 --> 00:41:34,410
think it's a fantastic approach.
It's something I would

954
00:41:34,510 --> 00:41:37,130
absolutely say to schools they
should implement when it comes

955
00:41:37,140 --> 00:41:38,540
to English and it should be
mixed ability.

956
00:41:38,590 --> 00:41:40,660
And again, on paper, it's
brilliant and I'm the advocate

957
00:41:40,670 --> 00:41:42,620
for that, right?
But then I just, I think to

958
00:41:42,630 --> 00:41:46,500
myself, OK, well, what what is
the answer then to the four kids

959
00:41:46,510 --> 00:41:48,460
who can't decode and write their
own name yet?

960
00:41:48,530 --> 00:41:50,880
Like, how on earth are they
gonna follow along with Michael

961
00:41:50,890 --> 00:41:53,240
Morpurgo?
But so where do you sit when it

962
00:41:53,250 --> 00:41:54,560
comes to like English with
reading?

963
00:41:54,770 --> 00:41:56,960
I think there's still a lot of
what we said, what I said about

964
00:41:56,970 --> 00:41:58,510
maths.
I think it's still applicable in

965
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,730
in a way.
I just think with English in

966
00:42:00,740 --> 00:42:03,200
general it's easier to have
passive outcomes.

967
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:08,110
I think it's easier to teach a
mixed ability class with like in

968
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,980
reality without having to plan
basically a bunch of different

969
00:42:11,990 --> 00:42:13,840
objectives which which might
actually end up happening

970
00:42:13,850 --> 00:42:16,780
sometimes in maths because
they're so far apart that they

971
00:42:16,790 --> 00:42:18,990
can't even do the objective
without the three things that

972
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:20,730
come before it.
Whereas if English, you know

973
00:42:20,740 --> 00:42:24,250
think about writing, I think you
can generally give and any group

974
00:42:24,260 --> 00:42:27,870
of children the same task and
the differentiators by outcome.

975
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,320
You know I'm just not expecting
as much from those children and

976
00:42:31,330 --> 00:42:34,920
that's OK you know you you you
can you can hone in on on

977
00:42:34,930 --> 00:42:38,000
certain it's easier in a in a
English class I think to hone in

978
00:42:38,010 --> 00:42:41,200
on a range of skills and just
not expect some children to be

979
00:42:41,210 --> 00:42:43,450
working at the level that other
children are.

980
00:42:43,490 --> 00:42:48,030
And I think that's OK.
OK, yeah, go on, you, you're

981
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:49,200
gonna say to me?
No, no, no, it's fine.

982
00:42:49,210 --> 00:42:51,150
I'm just, I'm just trying to get
to the bottom of what we're

983
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,120
thinking here because I I
suppose, OK.

984
00:42:53,170 --> 00:42:56,060
So in general, we've talked
about idealism versus realism

985
00:42:56,070 --> 00:42:59,620
and this idea that, you know,
obviously, I completely agree

986
00:42:59,630 --> 00:43:02,680
with you in terms of there's got
to be some malleability here.

987
00:43:02,690 --> 00:43:05,820
And I don't think that we can
safely say that for every single

988
00:43:05,830 --> 00:43:08,170
group of children in the whole
country that one way is going to

989
00:43:08,180 --> 00:43:09,840
be better than another.
I just don't think, I don't

990
00:43:09,850 --> 00:43:12,990
think we can do that.
So OK, let's just say then we're

991
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,290
accepting now that setting in
certain environments is the

992
00:43:16,300 --> 00:43:17,780
right thing to do.
OK.

993
00:43:17,940 --> 00:43:19,990
And in in other environments
it's not.

994
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:21,430
I think we can both agree with
that.

995
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,790
We can say sometimes it's the
right decision to set, sometimes

996
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,290
it's not.
And and a slippery slope and a

997
00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:28,790
big thing from the research,
again from about a decade ago

998
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,150
now, a big part of the argument
was, OK, so you want to set.

999
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,250
OK, fine.
We've got this research saying

1000
00:43:34,260 --> 00:43:36,020
it's bad.
It doesn't really affect

1001
00:43:36,030 --> 00:43:39,090
attainment and it squashes up
and it doesn't really help the

1002
00:43:39,100 --> 00:43:41,350
lower ability children much.
And that's what we want to try

1003
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,750
and protect in terms of, you
know, mental health and all that

1004
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:45,230
kind of stuff.
OK, We accept all of that.

1005
00:43:45,240 --> 00:43:47,570
We can negate that for a good
teaching, positive outcomes,

1006
00:43:47,580 --> 00:43:49,880
blah blah blah.
Alright, but how are you going

1007
00:43:49,890 --> 00:43:52,700
to set, how are you going to
make this decision that this

1008
00:43:52,710 --> 00:43:54,940
child should be in this
category?

1009
00:43:55,030 --> 00:43:57,790
What are you going to use to
inform that as a teacher?

1010
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,270
Are you just going to teach them
and say ohh, by the way these

1011
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,030
kids should be doing this.
Are you going to use a test?

1012
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:04,760
Are you going to use a
standardised measure?

1013
00:44:04,810 --> 00:44:08,150
Because the the big part from
the research again was even

1014
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,240
those who do set, it's very
arbitrary.

1015
00:44:10,250 --> 00:44:12,950
It's it's a misinformed and
subjective way of doing it in

1016
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,020
the 1st place because you know,
it's down to each individual

1017
00:44:16,030 --> 00:44:18,410
school and how many times have
you taught us that and you

1018
00:44:18,420 --> 00:44:20,970
thought this child should be in
a different set when when

1019
00:44:20,980 --> 00:44:22,530
really.
Yeah, it's your gut instinct

1020
00:44:22,540 --> 00:44:25,040
saying that really, yeah.
So you know, where do you stand

1021
00:44:25,050 --> 00:44:26,700
with?
That I guess like 2 points.

1022
00:44:26,710 --> 00:44:29,270
Again, like with that exact
example, I think firstly, if you

1023
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,710
are going to be setting in a
school where it has to be fluid,

1024
00:44:32,170 --> 00:44:34,990
it's got to be fluid.
There's you know you can't if

1025
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:36,630
we're already accepting.
We're putting a bit of a ceiling

1026
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,620
on the children by by doing
sets.

1027
00:44:38,630 --> 00:44:40,600
If we're all agreeing another
research isn't wrong, you know

1028
00:44:40,610 --> 00:44:42,230
you are kind of doing that
whether you think you are or

1029
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:44,260
not.
Yeah, at least you need to be.

1030
00:44:44,270 --> 00:44:46,160
You need to be fluid.
Like if a child is working at

1031
00:44:46,210 --> 00:44:48,020
higher or lower level, they need
to be able to go to a different

1032
00:44:48,030 --> 00:44:50,120
set and get the right thing for
their needs.

1033
00:44:50,130 --> 00:44:52,140
Otherwise it's just pointless.
You've broken the system.

1034
00:44:52,150 --> 00:44:54,230
It's mixed ability again,
because you've got one kid in

1035
00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:55,610
your class that shouldn't be
there.

1036
00:44:56,810 --> 00:44:58,010
I've forgotten the original
question.

1037
00:44:58,460 --> 00:45:00,790
Now my point was, how would how
would you go about that then in

1038
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,030
a world where we're both kind of
saying, aren't we?

1039
00:45:03,100 --> 00:45:04,550
OK, well, yeah, of course we're
gonna set.

1040
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,910
Sometimes, I think if you're
going to be the person or the

1041
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,110
people in this case who are
essentially going against the

1042
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,610
research, which we are, you've
got to really back it up, I

1043
00:45:12,620 --> 00:45:13,350
think.
So.

1044
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,740
You know, how would you go about
deciding, A, whether it should

1045
00:45:16,750 --> 00:45:19,810
be set B, whether you should set
across the school in a certain

1046
00:45:19,820 --> 00:45:22,950
way, C you know, what, are you
actually going to go off?

1047
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,210
Are you gonna go off the opinion
of the teacher or are you gonna

1048
00:45:25,220 --> 00:45:27,350
go off empirical data?
And how are you gonna make sure

1049
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:28,960
that empirical data is worth
going off?

1050
00:45:29,230 --> 00:45:31,900
I think the opinion of a teacher
is something that has been long,

1051
00:45:32,130 --> 00:45:35,810
long forgotten and long thrown
in the bin of like, oh, it's not

1052
00:45:35,820 --> 00:45:37,760
use, it's not useful because you
know, sort of Sats came in and

1053
00:45:37,770 --> 00:45:39,570
said ohh, actually we don't care
about teacher assessment

1054
00:45:39,580 --> 00:45:41,070
anymore.
We're just gonna use this data

1055
00:45:41,110 --> 00:45:43,180
to inform everything.
I think the the opinion of a

1056
00:45:43,190 --> 00:45:45,760
teacher is the most valid thing
in my opinion.

1057
00:45:46,510 --> 00:45:49,490
I think if if you've been
working with a group of children

1058
00:45:50,380 --> 00:45:54,240
and you notice that one of their
needs isn't being met and you're

1059
00:45:54,250 --> 00:45:56,700
struggling to meet their needs,
but you happen to know that

1060
00:45:56,710 --> 00:45:59,000
there's another set that exists
that will meet their needs

1061
00:45:59,010 --> 00:46:01,790
perfectly, I think your opinion
on that, regardless of where

1062
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:03,780
they've done a test or not,
should be the most important

1063
00:46:03,790 --> 00:46:05,700
thing.
But I do think tests are a very,

1064
00:46:05,710 --> 00:46:08,780
very good way of either backing
up what you said or or trying to

1065
00:46:08,790 --> 00:46:11,160
initially find something.
For example, if you at the start

1066
00:46:11,170 --> 00:46:13,520
of the year when you don't know
the children at all, I think

1067
00:46:13,530 --> 00:46:16,740
it's wise to, it's a starting
point to maybe use the end of

1068
00:46:16,750 --> 00:46:18,740
year data from the previous
year.

1069
00:46:18,990 --> 00:46:20,600
I think that's a good starting
point.

1070
00:46:20,690 --> 00:46:23,710
And then as you start to learn
the children, a bit of fluidity,

1071
00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:25,150
you know, children change
anyway.

1072
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,720
You could start moving them
around a bit, but I think

1073
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,000
opinion, teacher opinion is
probably the most important

1074
00:46:30,010 --> 00:46:31,430
thing.
Professionals, we work with

1075
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:32,830
these kids all day.
We know.

1076
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:34,540
We know who they are.
We know what they're like.

1077
00:46:34,550 --> 00:46:37,820
We know they're learning needs
and capabilities very, very well

1078
00:46:37,830 --> 00:46:41,600
or as accurately as we can do.
Yeah, that's my opinion.

1079
00:46:41,770 --> 00:46:44,080
OK so Hayden give us an insight
then for anyone listening

1080
00:46:44,090 --> 00:46:47,260
because as most of you probably
know we we lead maths.

1081
00:46:47,270 --> 00:46:50,130
We've LED maths in well LED
maths in this school.

1082
00:46:50,140 --> 00:46:55,150
Hayden's LED maths in a number
of schools Now we have a system

1083
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,070
where we've kind of come to
which we think is the best of

1084
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,140
all worlds and and like you said
of course we're fluid and we're

1085
00:47:01,150 --> 00:47:03,600
responsive and things like that
but just just sit out.

1086
00:47:03,610 --> 00:47:06,650
Then Hayden you know how you in
an ideal world which is

1087
00:47:06,660 --> 00:47:10,080
essentially what we do how would
you go about setting then in a

1088
00:47:10,090 --> 00:47:14,650
system where you know let's say
it's a Junior School they they

1089
00:47:14,660 --> 00:47:16,900
come to you guys in year three.
We're in that situation like

1090
00:47:16,910 --> 00:47:19,490
you've said where we don't
really have we have some data

1091
00:47:19,500 --> 00:47:20,980
but it's not something we can
talk to.

1092
00:47:20,990 --> 00:47:22,790
We don't have the opinion of a
teacher anymore.

1093
00:47:23,870 --> 00:47:25,980
Ohh, you talk about year four,
year five?

1094
00:47:25,990 --> 00:47:27,330
Year six.
A bunch of people messaged me on

1095
00:47:27,340 --> 00:47:29,940
Instagram and said they set.
But only in year six.

1096
00:47:30,410 --> 00:47:31,220
Yeah.
And.

1097
00:47:31,230 --> 00:47:33,580
And they talked about that kind
of idea, which is very common.

1098
00:47:33,590 --> 00:47:35,140
I think I've just setting in
year six.

1099
00:47:35,150 --> 00:47:37,020
We set because we know it
improves outcomes.

1100
00:47:37,310 --> 00:47:38,790
So we just do it in the year
that it matters.

1101
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,080
Well, why are you sitting in
year six?

1102
00:47:40,090 --> 00:47:41,460
It's when the Sats.
OK, I see.

1103
00:47:41,470 --> 00:47:43,360
Interesting.
So is that because they do

1104
00:47:43,370 --> 00:47:45,810
better in their Sats when you
set or.

1105
00:47:45,820 --> 00:47:47,810
Yeah, yeah.
Why would we wait to the end of

1106
00:47:47,820 --> 00:47:50,840
the school year to then set them
when we know it's detrimental?

1107
00:47:50,850 --> 00:47:54,540
We obviously wouldn't do that.
So how would you go about?

1108
00:47:54,940 --> 00:47:58,740
Setting children in a in a
school setting, what would you

1109
00:47:58,750 --> 00:47:59,240
do?
Sure.

1110
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,860
So let's let's assume that at
the start of your school,

1111
00:48:02,870 --> 00:48:04,680
wherever it is, if you're Junior
School, primary school, let's

1112
00:48:04,690 --> 00:48:06,730
say you have no data on the
children's mixability.

1113
00:48:06,740 --> 00:48:08,690
Straight away you start a mixed
ability.

1114
00:48:08,700 --> 00:48:11,450
Yeah, who are we to guess based
on nothing, right?

1115
00:48:11,460 --> 00:48:14,160
Put their mixed ability classes
for an X amount of time, however

1116
00:48:14,170 --> 00:48:16,830
long you think is appropriate, a
few months, you terms, whatever.

1117
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,790
Once you've got a bit of
empirical data and you've

1118
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:21,650
learned that you need to know
the children, I think at that

1119
00:48:21,660 --> 00:48:23,960
point you can start thinking if
you're going to set this is when

1120
00:48:23,970 --> 00:48:27,020
you can start looking at the
data and talking to the teachers

1121
00:48:27,030 --> 00:48:29,630
that teach them to decide on an
individual basis for every

1122
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:31,660
single child.
It's not just a everyone that

1123
00:48:31,670 --> 00:48:34,980
got more than 20% goes here.
No, no, it's every single child

1124
00:48:34,990 --> 00:48:37,280
is an individual.
We can't think of them as data

1125
00:48:37,290 --> 00:48:40,050
points.
We're not the government and put

1126
00:48:40,060 --> 00:48:43,990
them into a group that you think
is going to be most beneficial

1127
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,740
for their learning.
Secondly, culture I think is so

1128
00:48:47,750 --> 00:48:49,840
important.
If the research is saying it, it

1129
00:48:49,850 --> 00:48:53,020
negatively impacts their minds,
their mindset, right?

1130
00:48:53,030 --> 00:48:54,440
Because they know what set
they're in.

1131
00:48:54,770 --> 00:48:57,520
I think it is the school's
responsibility to do everything

1132
00:48:57,530 --> 00:49:00,250
they possibly can to not make
that a thing.

1133
00:49:00,730 --> 00:49:02,780
You can't get rid of it
completely because kids aren't

1134
00:49:02,790 --> 00:49:04,260
stupid.
They're going to work out if

1135
00:49:04,270 --> 00:49:06,520
they're in a higher or lower set
by talking to their mates.

1136
00:49:06,770 --> 00:49:10,340
But you can at least not call it
the low set and the greater

1137
00:49:10,350 --> 00:49:12,780
depth set.
You know, stuff like set 1-2 and

1138
00:49:12,790 --> 00:49:15,920
three stupid arbitrary things
where it's like any kid is

1139
00:49:15,930 --> 00:49:17,630
obviously going to work out what
that means.

1140
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,530
At least try to remove that sort
of stuff.

1141
00:49:20,540 --> 00:49:22,750
So culture is really, really
important.

1142
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,760
Once you've got your sets, they
have to be fluid and I think

1143
00:49:27,070 --> 00:49:29,810
you're going with the approach
of if we in an ideal world,

1144
00:49:29,820 --> 00:49:32,040
we'll have mixed ability.
So let's start with that

1145
00:49:32,050 --> 00:49:34,880
viewpoint.
But based on the kids needs,

1146
00:49:34,950 --> 00:49:37,950
we'll make sets according to
that.

1147
00:49:38,020 --> 00:49:40,750
So in our school we don't have
like a lot of schools.

1148
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,070
Actually I just have a system
where it's like, ohh yeah, every

1149
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,730
year we have six sets and the
kids just get divided into those

1150
00:49:46,740 --> 00:49:48,550
sets.
Like the sets pre exist the

1151
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:50,650
children.
Whereas in our school we have a

1152
00:49:50,660 --> 00:49:53,090
different approach and I really
like our approach, which is that

1153
00:49:53,140 --> 00:49:56,210
the sets don't exist.
Every year as a completely fresh

1154
00:49:56,220 --> 00:49:59,190
slate, we just have a cohort of
let's say it just round it up to

1155
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,700
100 children and we talk to the
teachers and we look at the data

1156
00:50:02,710 --> 00:50:06,480
that we have on them and we go
what would be the best for their

1157
00:50:06,490 --> 00:50:09,620
learning needs.
We're balancing out learning

1158
00:50:09,630 --> 00:50:12,670
needs with budget for a start.
It's like cool, let's let's have

1159
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:14,970
them in 17 sets.
I'm sure that'd be great but we

1160
00:50:14,980 --> 00:50:17,120
don't have 17 teachers.
So we're but we're we're

1161
00:50:17,130 --> 00:50:20,060
thinking about budget, what's
realistic, what can we actually

1162
00:50:20,070 --> 00:50:21,760
do?
Equally we're still thinking

1163
00:50:21,770 --> 00:50:25,040
about the kids mindset I think
and their mental health of if

1164
00:50:25,050 --> 00:50:27,440
we're going to do this, you
know, let's not let's not just

1165
00:50:27,450 --> 00:50:30,470
take out three children and put
them in a set.

1166
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,180
We're like you just make them
feel terrible.

1167
00:50:32,230 --> 00:50:35,620
So if we can avoid doing a set
like that we will.

1168
00:50:35,810 --> 00:50:38,290
And if it's really necessary
like in our school a couple of

1169
00:50:38,300 --> 00:50:41,680
times every couple of years we
just happen to have a cohort of

1170
00:50:41,690 --> 00:50:45,340
children where maybe there's
just a bunch of the children in

1171
00:50:45,350 --> 00:50:48,560
that year group that are just
severely behind others.

1172
00:50:48,570 --> 00:50:52,520
And and it's just unreasonable
to put them in a mixed ability

1173
00:50:52,530 --> 00:50:56,190
class because it's gonna be
extremely hard to plan for them

1174
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,050
to make a really good progress.
And I also think something that

1175
00:50:59,060 --> 00:51:00,330
the research probably misses
out.

1176
00:51:00,340 --> 00:51:02,490
I don't know you could correct
me on this one but I reckon it

1177
00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:03,960
misses out because it's
inconvenient.

1178
00:51:04,020 --> 00:51:09,240
Is that is there any negative
side effects to to children's

1179
00:51:09,250 --> 00:51:11,110
mentality when they're in a
mixed ability set and they're

1180
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:14,140
clearly the lowest in the class
because I find that interesting.

1181
00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:16,570
Imagine being sat there and you
said everyone else is doing this

1182
00:51:16,580 --> 00:51:19,370
task you get given that
different differentiated thing

1183
00:51:19,380 --> 00:51:23,820
every every twinkle time.
Yeah, like there's a whole other

1184
00:51:23,830 --> 00:51:24,880
conversation come to in a
minute.

1185
00:51:24,980 --> 00:51:27,800
Differentiate sheets and things.
Yeah, yeah, I reckon there's,

1186
00:51:27,810 --> 00:51:29,210
you know, I don't think it's
perfect.

1187
00:51:29,220 --> 00:51:31,110
I don't think being in a mixed
ability, suddenly all the kids

1188
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:32,570
are like, ohh, no, we're all the
same.

1189
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,070
It's like no, no, they'll still
work out that that everyone else

1190
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:37,430
is doing that hard task and you
can't write your name properly.

1191
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:39,750
They're not gonna not know.
Well, here's the thing.

1192
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:41,270
We'll move on to differentiation
now though.

1193
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:43,060
It's such a good point.
I'm gonna start off by saying

1194
00:51:43,070 --> 00:51:45,850
something I've always thought
because I've played almost ever

1195
00:51:45,860 --> 00:51:48,310
there was advocate during this
episode a little bit because I I

1196
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:50,980
think the way we do things is a
really good way of doing it.

1197
00:51:50,990 --> 00:51:52,430
And I think being reactive to
the children.

1198
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:56,060
So the number one thing,
however, it really makes me

1199
00:51:56,070 --> 00:51:58,200
laugh.
And people are like vehemently,

1200
00:51:58,250 --> 00:52:01,080
vehemently like, yeah, we must
do mixed ability because of this

1201
00:52:01,090 --> 00:52:02,580
and this.
And I'm like, OK, it's nice that

1202
00:52:02,590 --> 00:52:04,020
you're really passionate about
it.

1203
00:52:04,350 --> 00:52:07,700
But, you know, let's think about
it for a second because either

1204
00:52:07,710 --> 00:52:12,050
we set via class, OK, Where in
four different classrooms

1205
00:52:12,060 --> 00:52:13,920
there's four different levels of
children, right.

1206
00:52:13,930 --> 00:52:17,600
And then within that set, I
still group my children based on

1207
00:52:17,610 --> 00:52:18,980
how well I think they're doing
day-to-day.

1208
00:52:18,990 --> 00:52:21,080
I might move children around and
be like, OK, you guys are

1209
00:52:21,090 --> 00:52:22,300
cracking on today.
Well done.

1210
00:52:22,390 --> 00:52:23,710
These guys need a bit more
support.

1211
00:52:23,720 --> 00:52:26,390
So I'm still doing that.
OK, now that flipped to a mixed

1212
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,350
ability classroom.
You just have that in the

1213
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,500
microcosm of a classroom you've
got 4 tables, and the four

1214
00:52:31,510 --> 00:52:34,290
tables are the four sets which
would exist, but instead of

1215
00:52:34,300 --> 00:52:36,970
having a different teacher on
each table, this time catering

1216
00:52:36,980 --> 00:52:39,950
to those needs, you've got one
teachers at the front who's

1217
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,890
having to balance what would be
4 classes if you said yeah,

1218
00:52:42,900 --> 00:52:45,840
doing 4 different things, one
tables doing something

1219
00:52:45,850 --> 00:52:48,830
completely like 2 years below
where they where they like year

1220
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:50,470
expected.
The other ones doing greater

1221
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,010
depth in that year group and and
you're suggesting that that's

1222
00:52:53,020 --> 00:52:54,830
always better.
I find that hard to believe.

1223
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:56,870
Yeah, me too.
I think just that is a perfect

1224
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,810
example, because if they're, if
they're if they're set, at least

1225
00:52:59,820 --> 00:53:02,140
they're surrounded by children
that are like minded and similar

1226
00:53:02,150 --> 00:53:03,500
ability, right?
Completely.

1227
00:53:03,610 --> 00:53:06,280
It might actually help them not
feel rubbish, but when you're

1228
00:53:06,290 --> 00:53:08,080
sat on the table on the next
table, the table next to you is

1229
00:53:08,090 --> 00:53:09,720
doing all harder stuff every
single day.

1230
00:53:10,420 --> 00:53:13,650
Yeah I think it's more likely
that you're going to look over

1231
00:53:13,660 --> 00:53:15,870
and be like ohh, we're the
lowest table.

1232
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:18,890
I think that's more likely than
realising with a lower set.

1233
00:53:18,900 --> 00:53:19,910
I don't know maybe it's the
same.

1234
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,550
But your point stands which is
that yeah, it's not always gonna

1235
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,730
be better though is it Depends
how you do externality.

1236
00:53:24,740 --> 00:53:27,830
So do do you think that mixed
ability to work effectively, as

1237
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:32,090
the research says has to be
true, pure, make stability, as

1238
00:53:32,100 --> 00:53:35,950
in like the children have no
idea that of their ability like

1239
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:39,170
in the classroom, completely
random seating plan?

1240
00:53:39,540 --> 00:53:41,670
Yeah, I don't.
I don't get the impression from

1241
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:43,550
the research.
The impression I got was simply

1242
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:47,130
that you exacerbated by setting
like it's always going to exist.

1243
00:53:47,210 --> 00:53:49,800
You obviously exacerbated by
setting which is obviously true,

1244
00:53:49,810 --> 00:53:53,400
like it's obviously much more.
It's much easier to realise that

1245
00:53:53,410 --> 00:53:56,730
and also it it gives the IT, it
puts a ceiling on the children

1246
00:53:56,740 --> 00:53:59,180
to move around in the class and
be able to do something right.

1247
00:53:59,190 --> 00:54:02,040
So if someone if someone's on
the oblong table and they

1248
00:54:02,050 --> 00:54:04,270
usually do the lower stuff, but
it's a lesson that they really

1249
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:06,800
get this time and they can move
on to the same sheets as the

1250
00:54:06,810 --> 00:54:10,360
triangle table, right?
That is harder to implement in a

1251
00:54:10,410 --> 00:54:13,010
in a setting like.
You can still do it if you're a

1252
00:54:13,020 --> 00:54:16,060
good teacher and you put lots of
time in, but it's harder to

1253
00:54:16,070 --> 00:54:18,970
achieve that and that fluidity
that we talked about.

1254
00:54:18,980 --> 00:54:20,950
We have to have fluidity we're
doing setting.

1255
00:54:21,020 --> 00:54:23,630
Well, that fluidity just kind of
exists everyday in a mixed

1256
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:25,110
ability.
So I don't want anyone to think

1257
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:27,590
that we're sat here going mixed
abilities obviously bad.

1258
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:29,550
No, no, no.
I think all we're trying to say

1259
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,390
here is like in defence of still
sometimes setting because I

1260
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:33,890
think there's gonna be pros and
cons.

1261
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:36,010
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OK, let's move on to talk about

1262
00:54:36,020 --> 00:54:38,670
differentiation then.
Anyone who hasn't worked in a

1263
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:40,550
school before is probably
thinking what on earth is

1264
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:42,110
differentiation.
You've been talking about and

1265
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,930
the and the and the point is the
the overall goal for a child in

1266
00:54:45,940 --> 00:54:48,050
any year group is that they
access that year group's

1267
00:54:48,060 --> 00:54:51,220
curriculum, OK.
And I think as as educators and

1268
00:54:51,230 --> 00:54:55,300
as non educators as well, we can
accept that children are not

1269
00:54:55,310 --> 00:54:58,360
going to be able to access
something in the curriculum at

1270
00:54:58,370 --> 00:55:01,970
the same level, at the same
ability as other children.

1271
00:55:01,980 --> 00:55:04,340
That's exactly what's whole
conversation's been about.

1272
00:55:04,350 --> 00:55:08,140
So if you're doing a lesson on,
let's just say it's a column

1273
00:55:08,150 --> 00:55:10,100
addition.
How to add together 2 numbers

1274
00:55:10,710 --> 00:55:13,460
and you're in now.
OK, we're in this mixed ability

1275
00:55:13,470 --> 00:55:18,360
setting, OK?
Differentiation would be the

1276
00:55:18,370 --> 00:55:21,520
difference between what you
expect one child and another to

1277
00:55:21,530 --> 00:55:25,040
be doing in that lesson.
So it if you walk into a class

1278
00:55:25,050 --> 00:55:27,400
for them, Yeah, exactly.
If you walked into a classroom

1279
00:55:27,410 --> 00:55:31,680
of 32 children, and every single
child was doing the exact same

1280
00:55:31,690 --> 00:55:35,670
task with the exact same amount
of support, it would be a bit.

1281
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:39,180
Odd and same a bit station.
Exactly.

1282
00:55:39,190 --> 00:55:41,390
So exactly that we're we're
stepping into the mixed ability

1283
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:43,640
classroom.
Now we're not setting cause

1284
00:55:43,650 --> 00:55:46,050
setting kind of different
differentiates for you.

1285
00:55:46,060 --> 00:55:47,790
The problem being it's
predetermined, but it does

1286
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,490
differentiate for you.
If you set four ways, you're

1287
00:55:50,500 --> 00:55:51,840
already differentiating four
ways.

1288
00:55:51,850 --> 00:55:53,980
You get 4 different curriculums
almost that I'm meeting the

1289
00:55:53,990 --> 00:55:58,030
needs of the children, you and
mixability classroom Now it's

1290
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,170
weird that we have all this
positivity about mixed ability

1291
00:56:00,180 --> 00:56:02,590
and stuff, but then then then we
have to sit down and be like ohh

1292
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,360
by the way.
You do need to plan for

1293
00:56:04,370 --> 00:56:07,490
different things though, because
we now are going to accept that

1294
00:56:07,500 --> 00:56:09,000
there are obviously different
children at different.

1295
00:56:09,010 --> 00:56:11,390
Levels.
I think that that's that kind of

1296
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:12,670
mindset has also gone out of the
window.

1297
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:14,760
But hasn't it recently?
Because it very much used to

1298
00:56:14,770 --> 00:56:17,100
when we started our careers.
I remember it was drilled into

1299
00:56:17,110 --> 00:56:20,110
us, like properly drilled.
We'd literally get pulled up if

1300
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:22,610
our lessons didn't do this.
It was always every lesson we

1301
00:56:22,620 --> 00:56:25,970
taught had to have three
different tasks.

1302
00:56:26,060 --> 00:56:28,010
And some of you teachers might
be thinking, Oh my God, yeah,

1303
00:56:28,090 --> 00:56:30,540
it's either still the same for
me or I remember that very well.

1304
00:56:30,670 --> 00:56:32,600
And it was unique liability.
Blue.

1305
00:56:32,660 --> 00:56:34,340
Yep, orange, green and blue or
whatever it was.

1306
00:56:34,450 --> 00:56:37,460
You need a low ability task, you
need a middle ability task, and

1307
00:56:37,470 --> 00:56:40,110
you need a higher ability task.
It all needs to be around the

1308
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,120
same objective because we're
inclusive and it's a mixed

1309
00:56:42,130 --> 00:56:44,880
ability class.
But give them different things

1310
00:56:44,890 --> 00:56:48,900
to suit their ability, and it
did the exact same thing that

1311
00:56:48,910 --> 00:56:52,240
setting does, just in a worse
way, in my opinion, because you

1312
00:56:52,250 --> 00:56:54,400
just as you're now one teacher
trying to do three things rather

1313
00:56:54,410 --> 00:56:56,640
than three teachers doing one
thing each.

1314
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:00,650
And yeah, so you'd go around the
class and and I remember, I

1315
00:57:00,660 --> 00:57:02,020
actually remember watching a
lesson once.

1316
00:57:02,030 --> 00:57:03,960
It was one of the first lessons
I ever watched, like as a sort

1317
00:57:03,970 --> 00:57:06,840
of trainee teacher.
And I genuinely, genuinely

1318
00:57:06,850 --> 00:57:09,710
remember thinking, oh, this is
like making me feel a bit

1319
00:57:09,720 --> 00:57:13,460
embarrassed because the teacher
was going around and going

1320
00:57:13,470 --> 00:57:16,210
right, you get this task.
Ohh no, you don't get that.

1321
00:57:16,220 --> 00:57:18,360
When you got the harder one, you
get that task.

1322
00:57:18,690 --> 00:57:20,340
You've got that one.
And just going around handing

1323
00:57:20,350 --> 00:57:22,080
out the differentiated sheets to
the kids.

1324
00:57:22,150 --> 00:57:25,760
And I was thinking, doesn't that
make that kid feel really dumb

1325
00:57:25,770 --> 00:57:26,940
now?
Because you just gave the one

1326
00:57:26,950 --> 00:57:29,320
next to them the hard one and
they can see that they've got

1327
00:57:29,330 --> 00:57:31,690
the one where they have to draw
a circle and they've got to

1328
00:57:31,700 --> 00:57:34,700
write an essay like does they?
Are they not gonna realise that?

1329
00:57:34,750 --> 00:57:36,480
So it's, you know, it always
comes back to that same

1330
00:57:36,530 --> 00:57:39,550
mentality that the mental health
thing with the children.

1331
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,790
But yeah, the three tasks, man,
I think it's gone out the window

1332
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,410
a bit more, and I think
rightfully so.

1333
00:57:45,610 --> 00:57:48,070
Schools and education generally
have realised that.

1334
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,030
Try to get the kids doing the
same task of differentiate by

1335
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:53,670
the support that you give them,
you know?

1336
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:57,350
Maybe maybe one child just gets
a support sheet that all guides

1337
00:57:57,360 --> 00:57:58,870
their thinking a bit more, you
know?

1338
00:57:59,060 --> 00:58:03,250
And gets and gets like and gets
not as far into the lesson and

1339
00:58:03,260 --> 00:58:07,250
the object like plans it like
you're a variation in your

1340
00:58:07,260 --> 00:58:09,550
letter right start maybe at a
lower level.

1341
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,650
Everyone has starts off at a
level where they simply

1342
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,110
demonstrating that they can meet
the meet the objective.

1343
00:58:16,220 --> 00:58:19,240
That's where we kind of start.
If children still aren't meeting

1344
00:58:19,250 --> 00:58:21,540
the objective, maybe they'll
carry on with some practise.

1345
00:58:21,790 --> 00:58:23,830
If children do meet the
objective, maybe they'll move on

1346
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:25,820
to a bit of problem solving
based on what they've learned

1347
00:58:25,870 --> 00:58:27,710
and they can like apply it in a
certain way.

1348
00:58:27,750 --> 00:58:29,810
And then the other children who
were practising, practising

1349
00:58:29,820 --> 00:58:31,880
maybe at the end or do a bit of
problem solving with you.

1350
00:58:31,890 --> 00:58:33,980
But you know, you're kind of
doing the same thing and you

1351
00:58:33,990 --> 00:58:35,270
change it.
For anyone who's not sure what

1352
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:37,600
we're talking about here in
terms of three tasks, let's say

1353
00:58:37,610 --> 00:58:40,820
we were talking about again,
let's just say it's addition.

1354
00:58:40,870 --> 00:58:44,020
So the the three tasks might be
task A is just adding two

1355
00:58:44,030 --> 00:58:45,550
numbers together.
There's no exchanging.

1356
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:47,820
They've just got to layout the
columns and maybe the columns

1357
00:58:47,830 --> 00:58:50,060
are already laid out for them.
So all they've got to do is

1358
00:58:50,070 --> 00:58:51,810
simply add up the ones about the
10s.

1359
00:58:51,900 --> 00:58:54,870
The next one might be they've
got to set it up themselves and

1360
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,600
then do the edition.
And the third one might be some

1361
00:58:57,610 --> 00:59:00,140
addition in some word problems
where they've got to read like a

1362
00:59:00,150 --> 00:59:02,860
paragraph and work out what the
question is that that's that's

1363
00:59:02,870 --> 00:59:04,570
what we're talking about.
And it used to be you'd walk

1364
00:59:04,580 --> 00:59:07,900
into a room and I remember this
you'd say OK these two tables

1365
00:59:07,910 --> 00:59:10,340
you're gonna start on B, don't
worry about A, just go straight

1366
00:59:10,350 --> 00:59:12,280
to B.
These tables in the middle,

1367
00:59:12,290 --> 00:59:14,750
everyone else you're going to
start A and this table you're

1368
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:17,530
going to do A with me and you'd
still have that bit of support

1369
00:59:17,540 --> 00:59:19,050
and.
Stuff like maximum target books.

1370
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:21,410
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Massive Target 3.

1371
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:23,470
Tasks on each page.
Yeah, well, and what was

1372
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:26,150
happening, and this kind of
backs up the people who are for

1373
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:28,600
mixed ability classes.
It shows that they're not just

1374
00:59:28,610 --> 00:59:31,520
blindly for any mixed ability
because those same people are

1375
00:59:31,530 --> 00:59:33,990
saying that's also unacceptable.
We can't set because we're

1376
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,190
putting a ceiling on children,
but also we can't do this, you

1377
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:39,390
know, mixed ability class that's
also putting a ceiling on

1378
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:41,100
children.
So, and it has some mental

1379
00:59:41,110 --> 00:59:42,830
effects.
Yeah, it's the same mental

1380
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:46,030
effect and I think you know
anyone blindly could could

1381
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:47,890
blindly read the research and
this is where I always had a

1382
00:59:47,900 --> 00:59:52,240
problem with it and simply see
OK, research says mixed 30

1383
00:59:52,250 --> 00:59:54,590
better than say it's cool we're
gonna do mixed ability and then

1384
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:56,600
kind of not go any further than
that so.

1385
00:59:56,670 --> 00:59:59,400
Or not effectively?
Yeah, not to effectively exactly

1386
00:59:59,410 --> 01:00:01,980
that.
So in a class in Hayden, we're

1387
01:00:01,990 --> 01:00:03,900
in mixed ability now because I
think, OK, it's cool.

1388
01:00:04,390 --> 01:00:07,020
You talked about differentiation
by outcome.

1389
01:00:07,030 --> 01:00:09,030
Could you just maybe expand a
bit on what you mean by

1390
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:11,740
differentiation by outcome and
how that's more of a trendy term

1391
01:00:11,750 --> 01:00:13,550
at the minute?
And and how else might you

1392
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:15,020
differentiate?
Like where would you sit the

1393
01:00:15,030 --> 01:00:16,860
children with the same family
different?

1394
01:00:18,310 --> 01:00:20,800
Differentiation by outcome
anyone's not in that world is

1395
01:00:20,810 --> 01:00:24,990
literally as it sounds is it's
you as a teacher just having a a

1396
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:26,910
different expectation for how
much the children achieve.

1397
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:29,350
Not being like everyone must get
too questioned 10 before break

1398
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:31,540
or you miss your break.
That's a really sort of outdated

1399
01:00:31,550 --> 01:00:33,260
and not very inclusive way of
teaching.

1400
01:00:33,350 --> 01:00:36,860
It's it's more like you've
designed your task you know

1401
01:00:36,930 --> 01:00:39,640
intelligent design with tasks
which is something we talk about

1402
01:00:39,650 --> 01:00:42,620
a lot in maths so that actually
you know children, some children

1403
01:00:42,630 --> 01:00:44,410
can go further and further and
deeper and deeper into that

1404
01:00:44,420 --> 01:00:46,460
understanding.
They're all doing the same task

1405
01:00:46,590 --> 01:00:48,880
but the outcome is different.
I might only expect that some

1406
01:00:48,890 --> 01:00:51,650
children like if they can go
further if they want, but I

1407
01:00:51,660 --> 01:00:53,860
might only expect them to get to
a certain level and then maybe

1408
01:00:53,870 --> 01:00:56,570
require some support.
So other levels are other ways

1409
01:00:56,580 --> 01:00:59,170
to differentiate and which
basically just means to support

1410
01:00:59,180 --> 01:01:02,110
children and meeting objectives
like Dylan said, is with the use

1411
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:03,530
of adults.
Obviously if you're lucky enough

1412
01:01:03,540 --> 01:01:06,860
to have a teaching assistant or
any adult really in your

1413
01:01:06,870 --> 01:01:10,240
classroom that can support you,
it might be that they work with

1414
01:01:10,250 --> 01:01:14,520
a child or a group of children.
It might be that they which is

1415
01:01:14,530 --> 01:01:16,580
quite common and trendy now,
they sort of do the actual

1416
01:01:16,590 --> 01:01:19,900
floating around the class and
you go and work with a table of

1417
01:01:19,910 --> 01:01:22,320
children because a lot of people
say, you know, it was very

1418
01:01:22,330 --> 01:01:24,660
frowned upon, wasn't it years
ago That why why is the TA

1419
01:01:24,670 --> 01:01:27,170
always left with working with
the lowest 4 but the four

1420
01:01:27,180 --> 01:01:29,360
ability children in the
classroom when you're the

1421
01:01:29,370 --> 01:01:31,840
trained teacher, you go and work
with the lowest affordability

1422
01:01:32,150 --> 01:01:34,600
children and the TA can go
around and helicopter and help

1423
01:01:34,610 --> 01:01:36,940
other people out, which I fully
agree with by the way.

1424
01:01:37,270 --> 01:01:39,560
So that's another one
differentiation with with Paul

1425
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:43,430
and you know obviously that
falls down, doesn't it some

1426
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,450
point differentiation by
support, pretty obvious we talk

1427
01:01:46,460 --> 01:01:49,090
about all the time.
Go on Dylan, where's the fall

1428
01:01:49,100 --> 01:01:51,050
down?
This is the problem, I think for

1429
01:01:51,060 --> 01:01:55,210
mixed ability classes to work, I
truly think that we have to have

1430
01:01:55,220 --> 01:01:57,090
support in the classroom and
there's not enough funding.

1431
01:01:57,100 --> 01:02:01,470
So if you look at cross section,
let's say there's four English

1432
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:05,680
sets when in the school that I
work with and we have two

1433
01:02:05,690 --> 01:02:08,170
adults, two adults support.
So you know there's a rota.

1434
01:02:08,180 --> 01:02:12,060
They're in some days and not
another days it's it's I I would

1435
01:02:12,070 --> 01:02:16,260
go as far to say that it is
truly impossible to fully

1436
01:02:16,270 --> 01:02:20,000
maximise mixed ability classes
and learning without any form of

1437
01:02:20,010 --> 01:02:21,300
adult support in there to help
you.

1438
01:02:21,310 --> 01:02:24,860
And I think the perfect way
where we're really blind as a

1439
01:02:24,870 --> 01:02:28,040
profession, where we can see it
in front of our eyes and we just

1440
01:02:28,050 --> 01:02:31,000
pretend it's not a problem, is
when we teach anything other

1441
01:02:31,010 --> 01:02:33,360
than English and maths.
So in English and maths, most

1442
01:02:33,370 --> 01:02:35,650
schools will set they'll get an
extra teacher in the morning.

1443
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:37,600
That teacher.
Which by the way means that

1444
01:02:37,610 --> 01:02:40,120
classes are a bit smaller.
So you know, instead of having

1445
01:02:40,130 --> 01:02:42,600
32 children in your class for
maths and English, you might

1446
01:02:42,610 --> 01:02:44,900
have anything from 18 up to
2024.

1447
01:02:44,910 --> 01:02:47,380
Let's just appreciate just to
have another 4 differentiation.

1448
01:02:47,390 --> 01:02:48,940
Is it by selling?
Another form of differentiation,

1449
01:02:48,950 --> 01:02:52,620
your ratio between adults and
children, but we're very clear

1450
01:02:52,670 --> 01:02:55,320
that you know that that is
absolutely needed for children

1451
01:02:55,330 --> 01:02:57,480
to make good progress.
Whether you set or not, is the

1452
01:02:57,490 --> 01:03:00,520
ability to have smaller classes
and have more adults.

1453
01:03:00,530 --> 01:03:04,070
So the ratio for adults to
children is much smaller than if

1454
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:06,700
it was just you in your class.
Then I don't know what happens

1455
01:03:06,710 --> 01:03:08,900
over lunchtime.
As a profession, we seem to have

1456
01:03:08,910 --> 01:03:11,110
like, you know, collective
amnesia, because we just forget

1457
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:13,510
that that's really important.
And then the afternoon comes

1458
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:14,860
around, you're not in sets
anymore.

1459
01:03:14,870 --> 01:03:16,520
You're back to your class of 32
children.

1460
01:03:16,570 --> 01:03:18,580
You've got no adult support
whatsoever cause there's no

1461
01:03:18,590 --> 01:03:20,760
budget for that.
So I we don't have A at all in

1462
01:03:20,770 --> 01:03:23,600
the afternoon help you in class.
You got 32 kids and you need to

1463
01:03:23,610 --> 01:03:25,680
build a geodesic structure out
of sticks, by the way.

1464
01:03:25,750 --> 01:03:26,780
Indeed.
And it's two hours.

1465
01:03:26,790 --> 01:03:28,580
What?
What?

1466
01:03:29,110 --> 01:03:32,020
Excuse me?
And I think you know that that

1467
01:03:32,030 --> 01:03:34,620
therein lies the problem.
You know, if we're going to be

1468
01:03:34,630 --> 01:03:38,310
idealistic about this, you need
to enter the real world, because

1469
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:41,910
idealism works fantastic when
there's no restraint on budget.

1470
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:43,950
And I don't even mean no
restraint on budget, to be

1471
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:46,530
honest with you.
I mean having a TA during the

1472
01:03:46,540 --> 01:03:48,990
whole day.
Can you imagine, Hayden, how

1473
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:51,690
much better do you think your
practise would be for your

1474
01:03:51,700 --> 01:03:54,790
children?
And in general, if you, as a

1475
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:58,490
teacher, had an assistant
teacher with you all day?

1476
01:03:58,660 --> 01:04:00,710
You worked together as a two and
it was.

1477
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:02,230
Your job to get through the
class was.

1478
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:03,940
So much better for exactly what
you just said.

1479
01:04:03,950 --> 01:04:06,350
You know the afternoons, I think
on average in my 10 years of

1480
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:10,000
teaching, I'd say on average per
class, I have between 3:00 and

1481
01:04:10,010 --> 01:04:13,310
7:00 children in my in my class.
So when it's back to that

1482
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:17,740
stability in the afternoon that
require support to meet the

1483
01:04:17,750 --> 01:04:21,280
basic needs of the curriculum,
and I'm talking they literally

1484
01:04:21,290 --> 01:04:26,250
need an adult with them, or at
least a lot of time spent with

1485
01:04:26,260 --> 01:04:28,320
them in that lesson.
Disproportionate amount of time

1486
01:04:28,370 --> 01:04:31,120
for them to to for them to
achieve the most basic level,

1487
01:04:31,130 --> 01:04:34,080
level of that curriculum.
And and yeah, yeah, like you

1488
01:04:34,090 --> 01:04:35,990
said, it's very common to not
have one.

1489
01:04:36,190 --> 01:04:38,920
We just seem to forget that for
mixed abilities to work, we need

1490
01:04:38,930 --> 01:04:41,140
those things in place.
Yeah, it's impossible.

1491
01:04:41,150 --> 01:04:43,300
If I had it, it would be great
if I'd say you have a great

1492
01:04:43,310 --> 01:04:45,540
bond.
If you had like one person

1493
01:04:45,550 --> 01:04:47,660
working with all day, obviously
there is a chance that maybe you

1494
01:04:47,670 --> 01:04:49,770
don't have a great bond, then
you stuck with someone who you

1495
01:04:49,780 --> 01:04:50,930
don't work well with.
But generally.

1496
01:04:50,940 --> 01:04:52,900
You can't have job, isn't it?
That's yeah, you're gonna use

1497
01:04:52,910 --> 01:04:54,950
college, yeah, you're gonna get
on with, you know, you gonna

1498
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:56,200
make the effort to get on with
someone.

1499
01:04:56,270 --> 01:04:58,400
And yeah, it's gonna be more
beneficial in the afternoon and

1500
01:04:58,410 --> 01:05:00,820
maybe you could do more mixed
ability stuff in the mornings,

1501
01:05:01,290 --> 01:05:03,310
like we've got a high rate
approach, haven't we?

1502
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,830
We've mentioned, I think we've
really summarised it, but we've

1503
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:07,360
got a very much a hybrid
approach.

1504
01:05:07,410 --> 01:05:10,460
We try to do mixed ability as
much as possible in English and

1505
01:05:10,470 --> 01:05:12,180
maths.
We find it easier to do in

1506
01:05:12,190 --> 01:05:13,700
English for the reasons we
discussed earlier.

1507
01:05:13,710 --> 01:05:16,070
So generally we are just
completely mixed ability in

1508
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:19,270
English, and in maths we have a
bit of a hybrid approach.

1509
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:22,820
We generally take out our top 32
children and then mix the rest

1510
01:05:23,510 --> 01:05:26,460
and if an absolutely necessary
we'll make another set based on

1511
01:05:26,510 --> 01:05:27,940
on on the on the children's
data.

1512
01:05:27,950 --> 01:05:30,660
But if we had more adults we
might not even need to do that.

1513
01:05:30,670 --> 01:05:32,880
You know it might that just
might not be a thing and we can

1514
01:05:32,890 --> 01:05:34,940
fully embrace what the research
says.

1515
01:05:34,950 --> 01:05:39,160
But yeah, big theme of today
reality sometimes is very

1516
01:05:39,170 --> 01:05:42,540
different to the idealism that
comes from from research and the

1517
01:05:42,550 --> 01:05:45,040
research might be great and not
even void in any way.

1518
01:05:45,110 --> 01:05:46,840
It just might not work for your
school.

1519
01:05:47,070 --> 01:05:48,960
It might not be realistic.
That's that's the way I see it.

1520
01:05:48,970 --> 01:05:52,480
And I've found over the years
that it hasn't worked and I've

1521
01:05:52,490 --> 01:05:54,370
got better outcomes and happier
children.

1522
01:05:54,420 --> 01:05:57,760
I think in doing it, it may be
in a slightly different way to

1523
01:05:57,770 --> 01:06:01,060
what the research says.
You're going to be very.

1524
01:06:01,170 --> 01:06:04,560
I think a lot of people will be
not shocked, but I think I do

1525
01:06:04,570 --> 01:06:06,750
think the consensus right now is
to not set.

1526
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:08,390
So this will be a very
interesting episode to get

1527
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:10,440
everyone's thoughts on it.
Because I've spoken to some

1528
01:06:10,450 --> 01:06:13,240
people on Instagram this morning
when I put a post out who said

1529
01:06:13,330 --> 01:06:16,820
and I specifically asked them,
when they mentioned that they, a

1530
01:06:16,830 --> 01:06:20,240
couple of people mentioned both.
And I specifically said to them,

1531
01:06:20,470 --> 01:06:23,900
what did you find worked better?
And they said staying in class

1532
01:06:23,910 --> 01:06:25,880
worked better, you know, for a
number of reasons.

1533
01:06:25,890 --> 01:06:29,360
Like we spoke recently, you
know, flipping the switch again.

1534
01:06:29,370 --> 01:06:32,040
Now suppose we we worked
recently with someone who came

1535
01:06:32,050 --> 01:06:34,800
in and helped us with our
spelling in school, spellings

1536
01:06:34,810 --> 01:06:36,260
poor.
So we had some staff training on

1537
01:06:36,270 --> 01:06:39,220
spelling and what we can do to
help the children.

1538
01:06:39,590 --> 01:06:43,660
And I mentioned this because
again, it was very it was a very

1539
01:06:43,670 --> 01:06:45,480
good training session.
I felt like I got a lot out of

1540
01:06:45,490 --> 01:06:47,150
it.
But but again, as soon as I

1541
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:50,160
thought, OK, how am I going to
apply this to my class, the

1542
01:06:50,170 --> 01:06:53,580
idealism quickly turned into
realism of OK, that this is all

1543
01:06:53,590 --> 01:06:56,680
cool and these are some
fantastic games for prefixes and

1544
01:06:56,850 --> 01:06:59,850
I love the grid game where we
can like write words and find

1545
01:06:59,860 --> 01:07:02,170
them but my kids can't spell
who.

1546
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:05,710
So you know giving them a grid
of nine letters and saying find

1547
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:09,030
as many words as possible isn't
actually gonna help them spell

1548
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:12,130
words better.
And I've got this spectrum in my

1549
01:07:12,140 --> 01:07:14,560
class of children who do a
million different ways of

1550
01:07:14,570 --> 01:07:16,610
spelling wrong.
Some of them do prefixes, some

1551
01:07:16,620 --> 01:07:19,200
of the site words.
Some of do phonics and I don't

1552
01:07:19,210 --> 01:07:21,580
actually know how to help them
properly as one person stood in

1553
01:07:21,590 --> 01:07:24,990
front of them and you didn't
really get an answer for it.

1554
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:28,440
And I think that's one of the
biggest downfalls like you said

1555
01:07:28,450 --> 01:07:31,840
with, you know a mixed ability
setting is it doesn't really

1556
01:07:31,850 --> 01:07:34,240
answer that question.
And the people were saying it

1557
01:07:34,250 --> 01:07:36,180
was better though when they
stayed in class.

1558
01:07:36,550 --> 01:07:39,050
And I I suppose maybe then
throughout the day you know your

1559
01:07:39,060 --> 01:07:41,100
children better because you're
not getting children different

1560
01:07:41,110 --> 01:07:43,040
classes just from maths just for
English.

1561
01:07:43,090 --> 01:07:46,600
But I I just I don't think it's
the be all and end all.

1562
01:07:46,810 --> 01:07:49,040
Yeah, no, I agree.
And I reckon it would maybe be

1563
01:07:49,050 --> 01:07:52,110
slightly easier to manage the
million different ways your

1564
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:54,900
children spelling things wrong
if we attempted to group them

1565
01:07:54,910 --> 01:07:57,680
four ways into like the these
kids are generally getting these

1566
01:07:57,690 --> 01:07:59,900
spelling rules wrong or they're
at this level of that spelling

1567
01:07:59,910 --> 01:08:03,790
journey and they gonna have real
targeted support on that rather

1568
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:06,910
than you trying to do for levels
of targeted support in the same

1569
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:10,070
time in a lesson without wasting
anyone's time very very very

1570
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:11,530
hard to do.
Can I can I leave this

1571
01:08:11,540 --> 01:08:13,450
conversation?
I know we times getting on.

1572
01:08:13,460 --> 01:08:17,529
We've just one example of where
streaming has worked for me.

1573
01:08:17,939 --> 01:08:21,040
Just a real life example from
last year, a couple years ago, I

1574
01:08:21,050 --> 01:08:23,760
can't remember now, but I'm just
thinking of of this.

1575
01:08:23,770 --> 01:08:27,140
This child came to mind when I
was talking earlier and we were

1576
01:08:27,149 --> 01:08:32,390
in maths and in this particular
cohort we had one set that we

1577
01:08:32,399 --> 01:08:35,210
pulled out for the basically the
top sort of 32 children because

1578
01:08:35,220 --> 01:08:38,300
they were our data was really
interesting, it was very split

1579
01:08:38,310 --> 01:08:40,620
and we had a lot of children
working at a really high level

1580
01:08:40,890 --> 01:08:44,069
and a quite a big gap and a lot
of children working sort of near

1581
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:46,520
expected and we were like OK
that's interesting, let's let's

1582
01:08:46,529 --> 01:08:49,090
target those children separately
and these children separately.

1583
01:08:49,100 --> 01:08:51,590
So we had two sets basically
across the year we mixed.

1584
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:53,370
We had four teachers, so we
mixed it like that.

1585
01:08:55,180 --> 01:08:58,790
And there's one one child that I
was teaching in in my set and I

1586
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:02,069
was and I had the the higher set
at this point because I've done

1587
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:06,350
multiple sets across the years.
And I notice from my teachers,

1588
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:08,670
my teacher assessment of them in
general, that they were

1589
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:12,649
generally struggling to keep up
with the rest of the class

1590
01:09:13,100 --> 01:09:15,410
because of the the lack of sort
of foundational skills.

1591
01:09:15,420 --> 01:09:18,540
Had a lot of gaps earlier on
that were quite hard to plug

1592
01:09:18,550 --> 01:09:20,260
with the content and pace we
were going out in that

1593
01:09:20,270 --> 01:09:22,000
particular set.
But obviously I tried really

1594
01:09:22,010 --> 01:09:24,790
hard to do that for that child.
And then we did a second set of

1595
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:29,470
tests and and everyone made
progress apart from this child.

1596
01:09:29,660 --> 01:09:34,040
And at that point I was like ah
if this is this is where

1597
01:09:34,050 --> 01:09:36,729
fluidity of sets comes in really
handy and I had a conversation

1598
01:09:36,740 --> 01:09:41,779
with this child and another
teacher and they wanted to go to

1599
01:09:41,790 --> 01:09:43,850
a different class not because it
was a lower set.

1600
01:09:43,859 --> 01:09:46,380
We never used the language of
this is a lower set it's just

1601
01:09:46,390 --> 01:09:48,779
ohh in this set you know you
struggle with these things quite

1602
01:09:48,790 --> 01:09:50,960
a bit and and obviously trying
to help you they're doing loads

1603
01:09:50,970 --> 01:09:52,710
of that in this class do you
want do you wanna go and join

1604
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:54,020
them?
Ohh yes please.

1605
01:09:54,069 --> 01:09:56,510
Went to this other class
generally way happier now

1606
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:58,620
because I think I actually think
looking back on reflection they

1607
01:09:58,630 --> 01:10:01,140
were maybe getting a bit
stressed in in my class because

1608
01:10:01,150 --> 01:10:03,540
we were working at a different
pace much much happier in the

1609
01:10:03,550 --> 01:10:05,280
other class.
Ended up making loads of

1610
01:10:05,290 --> 01:10:09,880
progress then after that, and I
don't know, I just I thought

1611
01:10:09,890 --> 01:10:13,070
that was a good example of where
streaming can be done right, but

1612
01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:16,500
it's so easily shows how it
could be done completely wrong,

1613
01:10:16,510 --> 01:10:18,170
which is where the research is
totally right.

1614
01:10:18,240 --> 01:10:21,620
If I didn't recognise that that
that child needed to move, they

1615
01:10:21,630 --> 01:10:24,100
might have just been stagnating
in that class, getting stressed,

1616
01:10:24,910 --> 01:10:26,640
maybe not making as much focus
as they could.

1617
01:10:26,690 --> 01:10:29,340
So it was like a an example of
both, both ends of the world.

1618
01:10:29,350 --> 01:10:30,750
I think it can be done
correctly.

1619
01:10:30,790 --> 01:10:32,860
I think it can be very done very
poorly as well.

1620
01:10:33,190 --> 01:10:36,060
But you do have to react to the
needs and ability of the

1621
01:10:36,070 --> 01:10:38,930
children if you don't do it that
way and you just have blankets

1622
01:10:38,940 --> 01:10:41,190
so they will just get put in,
That's where it goes completely

1623
01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:44,310
wrong in my opinion.
So anyway, no absolute

1624
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:46,480
controversial.
No, no, I think it's very

1625
01:10:46,490 --> 01:10:47,730
interesting.
It's very interesting.

1626
01:10:47,740 --> 01:10:51,350
And I think you know there's
there's enough people who still

1627
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:55,420
set, there's enough people,
right, who go as far as they

1628
01:10:55,430 --> 01:10:56,910
can.
They they do mix, they do mix,

1629
01:10:56,920 --> 01:10:58,770
they do mix.
And then at the last hurdle like

1630
01:10:58,780 --> 01:11:00,810
Ohh, let's just set, let's just
set.

1631
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:04,650
And it's because I think we know
deep down that we can target

1632
01:11:04,660 --> 01:11:05,870
children in a different way when
we set.

1633
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:09,720
And and also for me, you know,
they get a bit older in

1634
01:11:09,730 --> 01:11:11,810
secondary school, they get set
immediately.

1635
01:11:11,820 --> 01:11:13,490
I think.
I think it can be done right.

1636
01:11:13,500 --> 01:11:16,360
I think a big big battle on our
solid shoulders to make sure

1637
01:11:16,370 --> 01:11:18,700
that children aren't feeling bad
about it.

1638
01:11:18,710 --> 01:11:21,120
I think that's something that is
like you said has to be at the

1639
01:11:21,130 --> 01:11:23,260
forefront of anyone's mind if
you're gonna go down this road

1640
01:11:23,270 --> 01:11:26,400
of setting and and not letting
anyone stay behind.

1641
01:11:26,410 --> 01:11:28,480
But that's part of the job.
You don't let anyone get left

1642
01:11:28,490 --> 01:11:31,040
behind anyway.
Do you like that We're not going

1643
01:11:31,050 --> 01:11:33,040
to we're going to actually let
children get left behind.

1644
01:11:33,050 --> 01:11:35,060
And if it's not working be
reactive.

1645
01:11:35,130 --> 01:11:39,100
And like I said, I think not
having a predetermined this is

1646
01:11:39,110 --> 01:11:42,780
what we do in this school,
whether or not the children do

1647
01:11:42,790 --> 01:11:46,100
well or whatever, whether it's
no, we do this because we're

1648
01:11:46,110 --> 01:11:47,840
this go.
Right to the children.

1649
01:11:47,850 --> 01:11:49,260
Put things in place for them.
That's it.

1650
01:11:49,270 --> 01:11:52,010
Simple as.
Right, guys, we we finished an

1651
01:11:52,020 --> 01:11:54,090
episode with no cuts.
We're gonna finish right there

1652
01:11:54,100 --> 01:11:55,820
because we've we've blabbed on,
haven't we?

1653
01:11:56,130 --> 01:11:57,890
We've got anything else you
wanted to say before we finished

1654
01:11:57,900 --> 01:12:00,300
Hatem?
Alright, well just off topic to

1655
01:12:00,310 --> 01:12:02,540
be fair, I'm sure we can talk
about all day, but didn't you

1656
01:12:02,550 --> 01:12:05,380
have a little plug for our
Instagram stories?

1657
01:12:05,510 --> 01:12:09,710
To see, Yeah, so firstly I
wanted just to mention we were

1658
01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:12,520
talking.
I did an Instagram post the

1659
01:12:12,530 --> 01:12:15,600
other day, a quick poll which
was saying that right poll,

1660
01:12:15,670 --> 01:12:18,200
poll, poll.
I think it's Poel.

1661
01:12:18,350 --> 01:12:19,500
Poll.
Poll.

1662
01:12:19,830 --> 01:12:22,820
I did a poll and it was just
basically asking what people,

1663
01:12:22,930 --> 01:12:25,950
what setting they work in
because we get a whole range of

1664
01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:29,220
people following us on Instagram
closing in on 3000 followers now

1665
01:12:29,290 --> 01:12:31,860
and I wanna just to know who are
they?

1666
01:12:31,930 --> 01:12:33,450
Is it no or no?
I don't know.

1667
01:12:33,460 --> 01:12:37,210
Anyway, so 73% of our followers
work in a primary school as

1668
01:12:37,220 --> 01:12:39,160
expected, but probably a bit
lower than I thought, maybe

1669
01:12:39,170 --> 01:12:41,680
because we obviously, you know,
very much centred on primary

1670
01:12:41,690 --> 01:12:45,880
school, 14% work in secondary
school, 8% don't work in either

1671
01:12:45,890 --> 01:12:49,600
of those, but still work in
education and 5% don't work in

1672
01:12:49,610 --> 01:12:51,610
education whatsoever.
They just follow us for the

1673
01:12:51,620 --> 01:12:53,090
laughs.
Maybe there are mates or just

1674
01:12:53,100 --> 01:12:55,530
some random people who've come
along for the ride.

1675
01:12:55,580 --> 01:12:58,370
But I got a message of someone
because quite a few of the

1676
01:12:58,380 --> 01:13:01,540
people who said neither but in
education message to say what

1677
01:13:01,550 --> 01:13:03,690
they would, what they do
essentially.

1678
01:13:03,820 --> 01:13:06,810
And someone messaged in and they
were just talking about their

1679
01:13:06,820 --> 01:13:11,890
provision and they give Sen
provision for people 16 and

1680
01:13:11,900 --> 01:13:13,390
over.
And I was like, oh, that's

1681
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:15,990
really because you know they can
you hear a lot about them kind

1682
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:18,810
of, you know going off the edge
of a Cliff in terms of the

1683
01:13:18,820 --> 01:13:20,350
support given to them.
It's like, oh, you get there.

1684
01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:21,110
Bye.
OK.

1685
01:13:21,150 --> 01:13:24,400
So there are amazing people
doing work and it just, it

1686
01:13:24,410 --> 01:13:26,940
really piqued my interest
because they were talking about

1687
01:13:26,950 --> 01:13:28,260
the kind of things they planned
for them.

1688
01:13:28,270 --> 01:13:32,780
And it's this whole debate about
how, you know, formal education

1689
01:13:32,790 --> 01:13:34,720
should be in general.
Because I think in these

1690
01:13:34,730 --> 01:13:37,200
settings it's very normal to not
sit and do.

1691
01:13:37,290 --> 01:13:39,500
We're going to do geometry, then
afterwards we're going to do the

1692
01:13:39,510 --> 01:13:41,440
chemical reaction to the bonds.
That's not, that's not what

1693
01:13:41,450 --> 01:13:43,920
these people need because they
also have a bunch of people who

1694
01:13:43,930 --> 01:13:46,220
maybe have been excluded from
school and they kind of take

1695
01:13:46,230 --> 01:13:49,480
them in before they're even 16.
So they're just explaining these

1696
01:13:49,490 --> 01:13:50,650
things they have in place for
them.

1697
01:13:50,690 --> 01:13:53,080
You know across the next turn
they're going to be doing things

1698
01:13:53,090 --> 01:13:57,360
like how to, you know, properly
wire plug sockets.

1699
01:13:57,610 --> 01:14:00,420
You know, they they live on they
their schools on a farmyard

1700
01:14:00,430 --> 01:14:02,790
where they can go and see the
winery and stuff like that.

1701
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:06,040
You know, look it was just all
of this amazing like real life

1702
01:14:06,050 --> 01:14:09,760
stuff and I was just thinking we
miss a trick, don't we?

1703
01:14:09,770 --> 01:14:13,700
And and what I found was lovely
speaking to this person because

1704
01:14:13,910 --> 01:14:16,620
it's, it broadens your horizons.
I think we can get stuck, can't

1705
01:14:16,630 --> 01:14:18,980
we Hayden?
Sometimes in we go to primary

1706
01:14:18,990 --> 01:14:21,880
school, maths, English, science,
maths, English, geography and

1707
01:14:21,890 --> 01:14:24,120
and it's that wider thing we
talked about earlier of OK, you

1708
01:14:24,130 --> 01:14:26,870
know, all of these things been
talking about realistically this

1709
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:28,990
is all for academic attainment.
This is all for, you know,

1710
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:30,480
results.
At the end of the day, yeah,

1711
01:14:30,490 --> 01:14:32,920
that's our job really, really
paid.

1712
01:14:32,930 --> 01:14:34,640
What would you say our job is?
Really.

1713
01:14:34,810 --> 01:14:36,560
Just get kids ready to be
grown-ups.

1714
01:14:36,850 --> 01:14:39,480
That's it.
And then for society, what this

1715
01:14:39,490 --> 01:14:41,860
person was doing was fantastic.
So do you guys get in touch with

1716
01:14:41,870 --> 01:14:45,200
us and teach the repeat podcast,
Let us know what you do and also

1717
01:14:45,210 --> 01:14:47,540
let us know if you disagree or
agree with anything or what you

1718
01:14:47,550 --> 01:14:49,100
want to hear in the future.
Because, yeah, it's.

1719
01:14:49,110 --> 01:14:51,500
I want to hear all about it.
We normally, you know I we

1720
01:14:51,510 --> 01:14:54,330
normally generally go with the
sort of general consensus and

1721
01:14:54,340 --> 01:14:56,790
research.
But I do feel like I'm this

1722
01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:58,770
group of a little bit today.
Hopefully my points came across

1723
01:14:58,780 --> 01:15:01,590
clearly I hope you don't think
that I just think setting is

1724
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:04,500
better that's not not the model.
I didn't get the impression that

1725
01:15:04,510 --> 01:15:07,520
a hybrid hybrid element that we
missed a few topics maybe we'll

1726
01:15:07,530 --> 01:15:11,310
talk about in the future though.
We didn't really talk about a

1727
01:15:11,580 --> 01:15:13,050
specific type of
differentiation, like

1728
01:15:13,060 --> 01:15:15,570
differentiation, differentiation
for children with special

1729
01:15:15,580 --> 01:15:18,450
educational needs or yeah,
English as additional language.

1730
01:15:19,100 --> 01:15:21,810
But maybe we can catch up with.
That and I know you feel poorly,

1731
01:15:21,820 --> 01:15:25,440
Hayden, Before we go in for over
an hour, you start this podcast

1732
01:15:25,450 --> 01:15:27,010
off for saying, can we just do a
short one today?

1733
01:15:27,020 --> 01:15:27,860
I don't feel great.
Yeah.

1734
01:15:27,910 --> 01:15:29,870
Yeah, that's me.
And then naturally I probably

1735
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:32,690
spoke for about 80% of that, so.
That was nice.

1736
01:15:32,740 --> 01:15:34,800
I rest my other tables have.
Turned.

1737
01:15:35,020 --> 01:15:37,170
I'm gonna finish off with one
little funny story.

1738
01:15:37,180 --> 01:15:41,720
We got a message from excuse me,
I got a message from an act who

1739
01:15:41,730 --> 01:15:45,300
is catching up with the podcast.
I've been listening bit behind

1740
01:15:45,310 --> 01:15:48,170
but nearly caught up now should
say hello and she just asked

1741
01:15:48,180 --> 01:15:51,540
about a recent thing we
mentioned on a podcast that game

1742
01:15:51,550 --> 01:15:54,520
where we fill in the gaps, so we
fill in the gaps in the story

1743
01:15:55,190 --> 01:15:57,920
and it was called Adlibs I
think, wasn't it Where you say

1744
01:15:57,930 --> 01:16:00,120
to the children, give me now,
give me a proper noun, give me a

1745
01:16:00,130 --> 01:16:01,920
conjunction and you practise
GPS.

1746
01:16:02,310 --> 01:16:05,600
We chat about that and she just
finished off with a little story

1747
01:16:05,610 --> 01:16:07,490
and I'll leave her with this
story Aiden, because it made me

1748
01:16:07,500 --> 01:16:11,000
laugh.
She was in a year two class and

1749
01:16:11,010 --> 01:16:14,530
one of the children she'd shared
that she'd met her uncle's new

1750
01:16:14,540 --> 01:16:17,470
girlfriend and her uncle's new
girlfriend was from China.

1751
01:16:17,540 --> 01:16:18,790
So that was that was
fascinating.

1752
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:21,130
By asking her all about that,
you know, finding out more

1753
01:16:21,140 --> 01:16:23,330
about, you know, her new uncle's
girlfriend.

1754
01:16:23,340 --> 01:16:25,410
How brilliant.
So this girl came into school in

1755
01:16:25,420 --> 01:16:28,650
year two, and from then on
declared to everyone that she's

1756
01:16:28,660 --> 01:16:31,130
now Chinese, and proceeded to
spend the rest of the year

1757
01:16:31,140 --> 01:16:34,550
answering the afternoon register
in Chinese from now on.

1758
01:16:35,470 --> 01:16:38,270
I love that kids minds, man, are
so good, I said.

1759
01:16:38,280 --> 01:16:39,720
What do you mean?
What do you mean?

1760
01:16:39,730 --> 01:16:41,350
That's not how it works?
Of course it is.

1761
01:16:41,420 --> 01:16:43,870
I'm Chinese.
You're the start.

1762
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:46,300
This episode started in Spanish
or whatever you did.

1763
01:16:46,480 --> 01:16:48,050
What you mean I think you still
hallucinating, mate?

1764
01:16:48,060 --> 01:16:49,160
I think you still hasn't.
Lost.

1765
01:16:49,170 --> 01:16:50,140
I think I need to go back to
bed.

1766
01:16:50,150 --> 01:16:51,290
Honest with you?
Yeah, yeah.

1767
01:16:51,300 --> 01:16:53,010
OK, Alright.
Have you got any stories?

1768
01:16:53,020 --> 01:16:55,020
Please do write in.
No, no, no.

1769
01:16:55,030 --> 01:16:55,790
You've done it again.
Right.

1770
01:16:55,800 --> 01:16:57,590
Listen, I'm sorry you have to go
off.

1771
01:16:57,790 --> 01:17:00,320
This is not good at this.
Normally, I'm fed up with this.

1772
01:17:00,900 --> 01:17:02,600
If you've got any stories guys,
please do write them in.

1773
01:17:02,610 --> 01:17:04,570
We'd love to revitalise our
little stories from the

1774
01:17:04,580 --> 01:17:07,180
classroom segment, but we need
stories to tell for that.

1775
01:17:07,230 --> 01:17:09,660
So yeah, if you got anything
funny, let us know.

1776
01:17:09,670 --> 01:17:11,090
What problem Hayden?
Ohh.

1777
01:17:11,130 --> 01:17:13,820
Slight problem.
Only three people actually get

1778
01:17:13,830 --> 01:17:16,740
this far in the podcast ever.
So we're talking to your mum

1779
01:17:16,750 --> 01:17:18,360
now.
We need to do it at the start.

1780
01:17:18,990 --> 01:17:20,280
Need to do at the start.
Yeah.

1781
01:17:20,290 --> 01:17:22,360
Alright.
Well, see you later, Mum.

1782
01:17:23,330 --> 01:17:23,880
Where she?
Yeah.

1783
01:17:23,890 --> 01:17:25,820
What's for dinner tonight?
We'll talk about later.

1784
01:17:25,830 --> 01:17:27,010
Alright guys.
See ya.