Ep 31: What Is The Point Of Marking?

0:00 Right here and we've not done. We're not an introduction like you know a little skits we used to do. Yeah. We've not done in about, I don't know, like like literally 12 episodes. I really like doing them. We should do them. We should do them. Like make like maybe this will end up being one. I don't know. But, but this is one thing they just asked him in a while. Yeah, don't ask him to do much. We're not an actual sponsor on the podcast. Yeah or anything like that. But it does help when they give us a 5 star review and follow us. Are we gonna go there? Yep. Yeah, it's a touchy subject, but touchy subject. Listen, listen. Someone is unhinged enough to listen to a podcast. And actually, I can't. Actually not It happened.

0:40 Yeah, we we talked about an Apple podcast. Hmm, it happened on Spotify, now with 4.9. I don't know what to say 4 point 4.9. What troll? What troll thinks? I mean, it can't be a real. Real, but we are not a five star review what we know. And I'll tell you right now, we did the maths, we sat there and we did the maths and we found out that it was a one star review because Spotify does not show, we think is, we think it's because it would be. Did the maths, didn't notice it and then immediately think who did that? Listen, It's obviously the same person. It was one star. Same classic person. It's weird because we did do a little Moan Never week as well. We.

1:22 Did so we always seem to moan. It's weird about SLT, yeah. And then, weirdly, yeah, that episode is rubbish. He's got one star podcast is. It is it. I don't know. Well, you've listened this far into this introduction, which we have done. Off the cuff to try and beg of you guys. It helps us so much. Peace gives our review. Please give us a follow and please actually know what they can do. What's that? She had a podcast. That's the number one thing. If you enjoyed the podcast, share it with someone else. And I thought we just we just stick that as a little intro. We moved away from me for a reason. I mean at the back of me for not speaking to the microphone. So if I look at you, I need to be still facing this microphone right? Too long Introduction.

2:04 Give us a 5 star review, follow us wherever you get your podcasts and share with a friend and we get into. The episode? Yeah, do it. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Teachers we put. My name is Dylan. And my name is Hayden, and I don't think any of those syllables actually work together. Just spoke then. Sorry, it's quick. I don't know what you said. Is anyone listening right now in anything other than one time? When you listen, when you listen to stuff, do you whack up the speed? Because I'm saying I'm impatient, I whack up the. Speed. I have started to yeah since we were introduced to those loom videos you sent where you can just put the speed in like 1.5. Great about Loom. It tells you what the new length of the video. Yeah and it's like ohh how far can I go before I no longer understand what's happening. Yeah, so I I am fully trained now at 1.5. I can do 1.5 easy.

2:49 Well, when we listen back through this podcast, when we're editing it, we do generally listen at two time speeds, but sometimes we realise we've zoned out, have to go back and hang on. We didn't actually. That's what we really rely on. Mess ups like us being really obvious because there'll be something kept. I think we've got this far without leaving anything in that will get US1. Day sack or something. But yeah, the sockets of football. Sack, sack, man. Anyway, hello guys, welcome back. Yeah, I mean that. That's a good time then. But yeah, listen to podcasting 1.2. It means you get to not only give us the plays, but you get done more quickly so. This is a sure what are you doing watching this. They are listening anyway. Hayden.

3:30 Hello. Yeah. Hello mate. How's it been? Yeah, OK, cool. Yeah, yeah. I've got a couple of little things. OK, cool. It's been quite an event. Four weeks since we last recorded. I've been away on a three day stag do. Surprised. I know you have. Yeah. Ohh where I went. Where did you go? And pretend you don't know that I went to Liverpool. You Liverpool. I did go to Liverpool. Wow. What made? Why did they, Why did they choose for us a long way for anyone listening, we live about 300 miles away from them before, so you know, obviously the stack has connections with Liverpool has family up there. So no, no, no. I don't actually know why. I don't actually know why. I think you just wanted to go there. Never been to Liverpool? Why not drag everyone up 300 miles?

4:11 Tell you what though, have you been there? Ohh be joking. No, you know, I was. I lived about 10 miles away from Liverpool for the first eight years. Of mine is 10 miles away from Liverpool. Liverpool. You think I'm not? I don't know. I went to Liverpool like the end of last year. Ohh. Yeah. I forgot about that. Anyway, yeah, it's cool. I I really liked it. It's very modern. It's like really it basically for me as someone who's like afraid of London because it's just like opposite to where we live. It was like the version of London that I wish existed. It looked really cool, had the big architecture, had all the cool big buildings and loads of stuff to do, but was nowhere near as busy and like compact.

4:54 There's a lot more open, which I really liked. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very cool at the end. Of it, Yeah. That's the end of that. OK, cool. Don't give us any, you know, like you know really cool Stag. Do you know stories or does what happened in Liverpool? Statement on The Beatles tour, obviously. How old was the stag? Can we just like ohh yeah. So this was so my girlfriend's dad is the stag and he's in his 50s and most of the men that we went with her in the 50s was 25 year gap. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was the old one out, although we did make the joke that I still managed to go bald quicker than all of them. 25 years on me. Anyone watching the groups like yes, but right.

5:36 Hello. Yeah, So yeah, age difference was quite funny. But it's, I've got to that point now. A life where it didn't really feel that weird. If I think if I was maybe like 2223 and the board, yeah, still balls, still bold and they were 50 odd, I think I would have been like, I'm completely different from that. But you know, well funny enough we were actually in London last week and I must say guys, but you live in this city that I'm sorry but it is not for me. Yeah it is not for me. Like I'm so overly stimulated, just like existing in that place, like turn around the corner there, there's 7000 people down there outside and like pubs are like packed, but then there's like A2 metre radius around all the pubs of more people with pints just drink ohh. I'm sorry, but the tube, right?

6:22 I don't mind the tube, it's fine, but. It's so common that it has that horrendous screeching noise that I and you look around everyone just like, yeah, totally chilled. And it's like the worst possible noise that could exist. Us thinking that we're literally about to implode, Yeah. Why is it horrendous like to London has just been like that, yeah. Yeah, it's just that, well, yeah, it's just, it's just the year switching between Victoria Line and Bakerloo Street. So it's just the Old Street, these bloody tourists, they think we're gonna crash. So that is just horrible. I don't understand how people can just get on that all the time. You have the heat. Honestly, if you live in London, fair play to you.

7:04 But it's not for me. Stop it. Stop. Stop it. Could you all move on? It's all sort that out, please. Anyway, well, because we have to be teaching. So, yeah, in in school, a couple of things. One thing that I think you'll find quite funny. First one, just a funny story. A child came into my classroom today from my class at lunchtime. I shouldn't really be coming in, but I was just sort of looking at anything. You do go into his bag doing something. He's a good kid. And I said, you know, he turned around just as he was about to go back out with his hat on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You did so well. Which has been dissecting before I go to secondary school. And I was like, what are you talking about? He was like, well, let's just say the head of the bee is now in my bag.

7:49 Bye. It was right outside. He just, he came in to put the head of me in his bag and I left it and I thought, yeah, fair enough. His parents will enjoy that done that. You've lost him, but he's told. You. Yeah, Yeah. He was quite happy. He was quite proud. I I will tell you exactly why I've got B story from this. What's your best? And I think it is linked or not because earlier in the week some playground duty and this child just came up to me and goes. Excuse me, sorry, could could we please have some water and sugar? No, I know exactly what this is for you. But why? Why? Why? You know, I said why? Why what? What's going on? Well, there's a bee. It needs some help. These guys, like 5 kids stood around this thing on the floor, right?

8:34 They put leaves on top of the bin, obviously. Yeah, otherwise it would. Be it doesn't have a head, but it needs some water. They took it off deadbeat. It was dead. And I was like, oh, I don't know, chickens gonna help because EAD, it's bad. And I just couldn't say it, though I couldn't say that I was like, ohh, I don't, I'm not sure. Like having a look. And then, yeah, I was like, umm, has he moved? No crying already. Surprise, he's he's not moved. He's not moved in a while. Ohh. He is lying on his back with legs, yeah. Bees don't normally do that.

9:14 It could be hibernating. Umm, always legs up. Dead, dead. I was like, ohh, I think maybe we'll just leave him to it shall. We Let's see, should we see, kids, let's see if the dead bees are alive. I mean, the bees alive. Yeah. So like they, you know, same. Same it might be, they might have no, you know, kids are like they would have stashed it away. And then then then that boy in my class then was like, ohh, wellow, what's? Mr. Price deadbeat because my scalpel. I was wondering what bees head looks like. Also what's up he's head is it not? I know. That's what I thought. I don't know. And how have they dissected it?

9:56 I didn't think about that. It's tiny teeth, at what point does it stop being the bees head? So just. Both. Ohh, I don't know. I kind of wish I'd asked to see it. It's one of those moments I just couldn't be bothered. I was like, OK. That you had in your back. That's fine. Moments in the teacher. You're like, ohh that I need to weigh up here whether it's worth my effort. Yeah, exactly. Just exactly. Eat my lunch or deal with this. Lunch. Ohh. Anyway, so that was that. Another quick story. I think you like this one. OK, so in in my maths class I haven't had a story about my mate. I know I haven't done anything.

10:38 I haven't had blown up mass or anything that made this year. However, I have been a very, very passionate maths teacher. I have had moments where I've sort of gone off script for a minute because, you know, just because it's like there's something related and I'm like, oh, I kind of want the kids to know this. And we were looking at the good old doubling factors and halving factors. Now that doesn't change the answer because we were trying to find factor pairs of numbers and I just went off on it for ages, right? So for anyone who doesn't know what we're talking about, it's the idea that factors numbers you multiply together. So if you have like 16 * 25, that's the same as eight. If you're half the 16, double the 25. Eight times. 58 * 50 is way easier to do than 16 times. So it's like it's like efficiency. Strategy.

11:22 Yeah, exactly that. So the kids would know, I'd say to them, I'd give them something like 16 * 25 and I say solve that. They go pick up, pick up. Depends on over in your head you got 5 seconds. If you go like what? What would you mean that's why they use that to then show them and they cut. They were like, oh, it's like one of your YouTube videos learning because we do like educational stuff on YouTube. And now, since then, they've coined it as It's Mr Stephens Mini YouTube. Mini YouTube Time. And they're like, cool, can we have more mini YouTube times? Way to hook them? Because it wasn't really like it was just a separate thing. It didn't really lend itself to a whole lesson, but it was a kind of cool maths thing, like a segment to like our podcast or. Something. Yeah, exactly. That it's bitty YouTube time, No. Time.

12:08 Yeah. So now we've got a thing, And one of the kids today, 'cause I didn't do it, I just did a normal lesson and they're like, are we gonna have many YouTube time today? And I was like so many YouTube times, simply you say something you've done in the YouTube video or? Do you know it was the way I was presenting it? I was doing quite and quite like a like a bit of anyway, I was like over really over the top. And one of them was like, it's like if you feel like I was presenting a video, yeah, because all the other time you start going 4 + 4, do it Mini YouTube, yeah, after you've done your maths. Alright, yeah, so I thought that was quite sweet because I know that's the kind of thing you probably do as well. Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. Think anything about in your week that you haven't mentioned. Ohh, I'd have mentioned moving house in time time. I don't know what I mentioned.

12:52 That's great. But I do have Internet now. So this is the first time we've done the podcast where we had the choice whether to do it face to face or not. And overwhelmingly people keep choosing face to face. Yeah, I prefer face to face. Yeah. So we're gonna carry on doing like this, and eventually we'll have a actual little space I. Hope, yeah. What the plan is, you guys, But we would like to do something. If you guys keep listening and it's, you know, it carries on being popular, then that is something we'll do. Yeah, because we enjoy it. But if we put the effort into do something like that, then you guys want to listen to it. Absolutely brilliant. A couple of things that just made me laugh and don't go too deep into politics, but. Here he goes. How long do they last? 15 minutes? 15 minutes. I'm going to mention it because it really made me laugh. Gillian Keegan again. Anyone doesn't know the education secretary in charge of education in the country.

13:35 Yeah, was talking about the whole rack thing, you know, the concrete stuff, which was a couple weeks ago and how how we're reacting to it and the fact that a lot of children have to be in like temporary accommodation have basically up there the Porter cabins essentials, of course. So she was talking about it, talking about it, and she decided to say this thing, which she thought was some kind of really cool win. And it was like you could see the way she was saying it. And actually she said this. She goes, and you know what, I was actually in a school recently talking to some children and they were in their Porta cabin and they said they actually prefer the Portacabin to their regular classrooms. And I was like, hmm, she was like, as if to say so clearly the ports, cabins are great. I was like, oh, oh, or could it be ohh, could it maybe be that they, the classrooms are terrible.

14:17 Yeah. She, she listens to you pray the port comes to the classrooms. I'll tell that to the House of Parliament. That's something I want to post about as the education secretary. The thing we actually plan for them and built for them. Yeah. Portacabin. Much better we do. We do, Madame, because the Porter cabins have bruises on them that don't leak. Ohh well ohh so that that made me laugh because she she she said it in such a smarmy way. And I'll have you know they prefer the awful bit like alright anyway sounds good. And the other thing Martha related I suppose the teacher, is they've set up another workload task force for teachers. It's got a whole bunch of people in their SLT, teachers, blah, blah, blah.

14:59 Again, set up by the government to investigate workload. Don't investigate it. I'll tell listen to listen to the podcast about whether don't investigate it. There's no mystery here There's no there's no delving to do. Ohh what is the problem of teaching about Could it be literally everything we've ever mentioned before Maybe we could start with that. I don't spend money on investigation. Yeah, let's just actually sort something out. I saw someone I wonder what you think about this. Said that they think we should stop thinking about workload in terms of things. Teachers of today, yeah. And start thinking about workload as an attitude and A and a environment and a our attitude towards what we're expected to do.

15:41 Right. And I was like at first I was like, well, it is just stuff we've gotta do though, isn't it? But they they meant like we have to fundamentally from the from the top down change our attitudes towards this job. And the point was like, because at the minute the job is simply and we've experienced this, oh, this needs doing. That's the end of the conversation. Yeah, Ohh. This needs to do ohh cause I've already got a job and that's teaching like that's that's doing my planning and my teaching on my marking. Yeah. And we'll talk about marking and it's Ohh. Yeah, but you gotta do this thing. Have I? OK. When Ohh OK done. How many times did that happen when someone like literally introduced something like yeah, yeah, we're gonna start doing this. I know it's tough.

16:26 I know it's tricky. But, but, but but can't do it. Please. Yeah, it just. It winds me out. I don't have any faith at all in there. Yeah. Task Force. I used to, I used to be a bit more susceptible to just be like, yeah, OK, you know what? We're driving standards up and that's part of our job. We are doing the best thing all the time. I get it right? Speaking to, speaking to one of the guys on the stag do, yeah, on the train. It was a really nice conversation and I was just, you know, expressing some of my feelings and and he, as someone who's not in the teaching world, was also expressing some of his opinions as well, just as an onlooker. That's good though, to hear. Yeah, it was. It was really interesting. And he's kind of like feedback as someone who's really interested in politics and all that sort of stuff was he was like, we need to sort the system out. He was in, in his opinion, like the strikes and were not strikes actually, but the pay.

17:15 The pay thing. He was like, that's just a. Pasta. Yeah, I agree. He was like because it doesn't really fix anything, You'll just be paid a bit more and everyone will still be unhappy and wanna be paid more next time. And from my perspective, I made the point of saying I used to be more up for. Doing like loads of extra in my own time as like goodwill, because I felt like almost, I don't know, Pride is not pride, it's, I don't know something I felt something. I was like, yeah, I should, yeah. And then and then I got up. And then every single year. What I got as a reward from, from our from our government, from our country was a pay cut. Yeah. And I just and eventually it just it's just like actually, you know what? No, Yeah, like if seriously. Like, you really like what I've slapped around the face.

17:56 It's like clapping for the NHS. Yeah, it's like, yeah, we really need you to do this whilst taking away money out of our pockets. Yeah, OK. I don't actually care if anyone thinks teachers are paid too much or too little. It's irrelevant. Yeah, because have a pay cut, A pay cut. It has connotations in it. We could be paid £1,000,000 a year. Having it cut to 900 grand a year would still be essentially someone saying you're worthless. We think you're worth less, actually, than what you were before. So we're taking it away. And that's the way I view it now. So I'm more bitter about it. I'm just like, no. Why? Why? Why would in line with pay cut we do more stuff? What backwards reasoning is that? Well, you've been quite passionate, haven't you, About, like, the whole point of striking?

18:38 Yes, like. That workload. And it's just like, are we just going to say it again for anyone listening? Because I know for a fact that people listening to this for the first time, we always get new listeners every week, but everyone has heard it before. I please, please implore you to be that person who's a bit snarky sometimes in your workplace. To be that person who's a bit, pushes the boat a bit but defends like basic rights and stuff and just reminds everyone that we have not resolved the issue of the strike action. It was for pay in line with inflation and reduced workload. We didn't get pay in line with inflation and nothing's changed for workload. They might have some schools, some schools. Absolutely. From a systemic level, it hasn't, which goes back to your point, right. So what is this thing about then? This task force, task force.

19:24 And it's really interesting because it's full of basically SLT teachers, government officials, etc. And again, someone replied to it. It's really, really interesting to me. It's all about retention as well. Basically it's like we the they, they do see workload as a way to improve retention because that is the main thing driving people the job. Like I love teaching. I love teaching. If in five years I'm still teaching under the current system, I'm complete failure because I should know I shouldn't be what it means. Not not everyone's a failure who does it. But my attitude now to teaching is either something has to drastically change or I won't be there, won't be doing it in five years, and I know I'm good at teaching. I know you're good at teaching. I know so many amazing teachers who will leave because there's no retention scheme, so workload is a way they can tackle retention.

20:10 But yes, someone said as well, why do we constantly with these workforces? Fill it with people who are teachers and SLT and people in the system. They were saying. What we need to do is look at other sectors where retention and recruitment is really good, get their expertise almost like that car you were talking to. He's like he's coming from the outside. I think, well, this is clearly broken. Yeah, like a business minded business mindset. Something from a successful place where where we've seen track record of it happening. Maybe in a place where retention has been fantastic but pay has stalled and thinking, OK, well if we can't, if we literally can't afford to pay teachers anymore, then we have to repay them somehow. And that could be with a more easy lifestyle. Hmm. So you know if we're gonna take a pay cut in real terms but it affect my workload goes down and I can enjoy my time more than that.

20:54 OK. It's still I've gotta pay my mortgage and stuff. Yeah. But at least I can see some kind of give and take there. Something that's logical something has to give because it it has literally been 15 years nearly of erode, erode, erode, erode and and genuinely workload going up. Yeah. And I know there's more work to do and we're going to cut your pay because because it's insulting, I feel insulted, like I take it. Personally, and it's ridiculous. I'm being a child, I do. I take it personally and I'm like and I get like, yeah, about it, you know? But I don't know. People are better than me, that they can look past it. But I think what we need to remember is and look the people listening to you just moaning. You're not an economist.

21:36 You don't know what you do. The guy in the right place. This dude. Hey guys, give us five stars, 5 star money. Giving us that one star he's fed up of listening ohh trying to pull completely. Sorry, I didn't even know we were saying. It was as usual. I wasn't listening. Ohh gosh. Ohh. Ohh. Anyway, I've changed. Harvest Festival, right, guys? We're going to play the Jingle. We're gonna come back with some memes about assembly.

22:17 Dylan, I would like to start this segment with a bit of a shout out. I don't know what you're gonna say. To one of our earliest fans, Sandy Sandy. Sandy, if you're still listening, hope you stick around. How's Danny Zuko? It's not right. What is this Sandy from Greece? Ohh, I was like, what are you talking about, Sandy? Sandy, I don't know. Not much that. Anyway, you've not sorry you've not watched Grease. Ohh, I think I have, but I can't watch any of it. You remember we have for dinner today with me 10 minutes. Ago. I don't know what you left though. Not gonna. I don't all my dinner all the time, alright. He's a child. Yeah. Sandy, thanks for listening. Well, I did want to talk about this a little bit because it is that time of the year and anyone who's ever been in school, you'll be seeing the memes online.

23:03 Thank you for the it's obvious this time it's obvious assembly. Yeah. And and we do obviously every week and it's just. I can't. It stays in my head. You know what we're like Hayden. Yeah. I'm the worst for it in the world. Any Jingle any like advert that I've seen like it will stay in my head and ring around and I literally go home. Cabbages are green is it captures the green cabbages and beans. No, wait. Cabbages. Power Floppy. No, I'm thinking of a different one. Wait, what are you thinking of? No, it's not. It's not. Hehe Yeah, there is a plethora of the potatoes, but.

23:51 Yeah, that would be when you're in assembly, right? Yeah. Do you join it? Don't know what teacher you are used to. I don't know why. I don't know. But I don't anymore. Ohh. I sit there and I pretend I'm watching you. And I'm watching them as if like that's an so if any if any kid looks at me and judges me and it's like, why isn't he singing They were looking ohh yeah, he's scouring he's he's got his eyes over. There's no one there. There's no one there doing anything wrong. I'm like, I'm like this looking intently as if I've seen something completely like 6 adults in the room obviously, right? Every single one of them was both singing and doing actions and I'm here like this, right? Should be watching. I'm like, I'm gonna look at the camera. Yeah, to the kids I'm looking at no one, by the way. Yeah, let me because the room.

24:40 But the problem is I I do find with our voices particularly true. It does. And the kids turn around and look at you and then I'm embarrassed. So like just buildings. You be the kids, you saying, OK, and then I'm going to come in with my voice and just give me oil in my lamp. Give me burning, give me oil. And they're like, ohh, who's this guy? Who's this guy? He's the go compare man. No, But anyway, it's harvest festival time. There's loads of beans on light and stuff. I've seen so many different things, but it's so relatable for people. Everyone knows it and I was seeing one earlier that's different. And you started singing conifers. Fluffy, I wanna do a little thing. I'm gonna test you.

25:20 OK, So what I'm going to do is I'm going to get the lyrics up to cauliflower. Fluffy. Go on the flowers. Fluffy and cabbages. Green. You got that right. I'm gonna say the next bit, and you're gonna tell me what they described as OK, so cauliflowers are fluffy, cabbages are green. Strawberries are. I don't know. I didn't know. But you gotta say what comes. Right. I don't know. I knew it was on the assembly today and I don't know why. No, it's it's got sweeter than I've ever seen beetroots.

26:04 Yes, and onions, white all grows steadily. Through the night. I don't know what is it? Is it day and night? Like, yeah. It's so hot in here, the apples are green. Right, Right. Ripe the plums are. Green doesn't make sense and bums are red. The broad beans are sleeping in A. Blankety bed blackberries are also right. Every bazaar still ripe. It was all night. How am I gooseberries? Ripe.

26:48 Let's just fat radish is round and run rabies flat the apples. Are always still going pumps red. The broad beans are sleeping. In a blankety bed? Hey orangey, carrying on orange carrots and turnips peel cream. Apparently Cream. Yeah. Remember seeing Red dining? But potatoes, tomatoes. No potatoes that used to be green, brown, brown onions. Potatoes in little heaps down in the darkness where the something please. Celery.

27:30 Celery sleeps. The apples are ripe. The plums are already forgotten. Red, broad pizza. Sleeping in a blankety if they're still listening. It's embarrassing because I I had it was on an assembly today, today, and I know for a fact on the board, there's. Pictures and words, Yeah, yeah. Ohh. I even joined him for a little bit today. I actually did a bit for like 10 seconds. That's my favourite thing. OK to finish off him, he's a new section. Remember it's ohh well. Enjoyed that? That's worth a 5 star, right? I want you to please lead the singing something on time.

28:15 Well, make it up. Keep it in the in the right back of the car. Ohh man. Well, I'm glad you enjoyed that. That was something I thought, off the cuff would be funny, and that was funnier than I. Yeah. And now the temperature in here has risen to about 50 degrees. It's like completely correlated to how much of a good time having I was freezing earlier. The wetness of your face is unreal. So wet. Only the customers are watching your treat. Should we do another little quick Jingle and actually going to freshen up and go into what the actual we've done it again? Come back because we're gonna talk about Mark. See you soon, right guys, before we carry on and get into actually talking about this episode, I just want to remind you guys you can follow us on our socials at Teach Sleep Repeat podcast on Instagram and threads. e-mail us at Tell Me I'm still reading from that Singapore. e-mail us at tcrepeatpod@gmail.com.

29:10 And you know, I'm gonna delete out of it soon because I can't do it. What? Yeah, XI can't do it anymore. Really. Yeah. You're getting really into that, I know, but I just hate it. Set a bit horrible Ran by an egomaniac idiot. Hmm. I'm gonna be your thing. I see. Ohh yeah, we'll see. We'll see. But you know what? I'm not on social media that much. Anyway, best place to find is Instagram. That's the place to to find us and all that good stuff. But anyway, give us five stars and followers as well anyway. Do you know we do like what we like? We do like people writing into us. Yeah, I know. And do you know what? We've not been on top of that? Because I have had a couple, yeah. And honestly, it's just been so hectic in time time. So we will get back on the stories. We've got at least two, I think. If you told them he's moving as well, go through, he's moved house, moving house guy and they were a little bit stressed, but apart from that all good.

29:58 Anyway, this podcast, now you probably clicked on it thinking thank you, we're 35 minutes in you haven't even talked about what this click bait title was. Was a little bit of click bait. What's the point? What is the point in mind? The point in marking, and I suppose it's these two strands to this one, what is the literal why do teachers mark? Yeah, like literally, why do they mark? There's there is a point to it. And the second one is why is the point marking? Which if you're a teacher, you'll, you'll feel that one, I'm sure. And it's a very popular view to have that is completely pointless. Yeah. So we're gonna dive into it. Yeah. So for anyone watching who's not a teacher and who anyone who is a teacher, I want this to be quite useful because I think we have perspectives on marketing. And I think again a lot of people who aren't in teaching think I I remember secondary school more and in secondary school the teacher barely marked the books. You know it was just like ohh cause we've got cracking method the assessments.

30:49 Not saying secondary teachers don't mark but it's much less intense for a primary school isn't it? So for an average week in a primary school, Hayden, I want you to lay out for people what would the average teacher have to mark and roughly how? Long so this is this is just normal. Some schools do different things, right? It's fine for traditional marketing, traditional marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing had to spread this. What caused? The national marking, right, You are going to be marking 3 lessons per day. That is the average. You're going to be marking maths, English and something in the afternoon. That might even entail a bit more. But on average 3 lessons a day only marking. That's 32 books. Likely to have 32 books. Unless you're a school that's lucky enough to have sets where you might have like 24 and say, or 20 or even less. But generally, teachers across the country are marking three sets of 32 books in three different subjects. Every single day.

31:43 Give or take the odd afternoon, but they might do something. Let's call it 80 bucks a day to be fair. Yeah, because it drops off sometimes. Yeah. And some lessons you teach twice in the afternoon. So it's a four sets of. 30 And other times you don't teach a lesson that is in books. And 80 for argument's sake, yeah, OK And marking, going through their work, checking it, Mark, taking it, all that good stuff. Realistic. Traditionally, how long would a book take to mark? Well, depends on it's depend. It does depend on what the subject is and also what Every school has their own marking and feedback policy. So every school must have one, and depending on that policy could make dramatic changes to your workload. So again, bang average score probably expects right, just really normal marketing policy that the work is looked at, everything that's been written is is read over by you, and ticks or whatever their version of ticks in are put periodically through the work to show the child that you've acknowledged what they've done and it's correct. And if it's really blindly incorrect, your job is to pick out those mistakes and.

32:44 Again, your policy might tell you to circle it and they have to correct it the next day. It might be just to fix the mistake for them so they can see it. So it's quite involved, particularly in English lessons because obviously you write a lot in English. So yeah, it takes a long time and there's different approaches like you said, and it does depend score to score, but like thinking that like people, teachers complaining about marking, what amazes me is how different it can be score to score. And I think as times gone on and we really do try and approach workload in a way that's sensible and change attitudes to me markings, the easy one marking is the number one way that we can drastically improve well-being for teachers whilst minimally decrementing any child's outcome. Yeah, because I'm gonna tell you now, I can count probably on one hand how many times I thought I count 2 hands in my career. Honestly, where I thought that the time I spent marking was proportionate to the outcome from. Marketing.

33:41 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I reckon 0 times for me. Genuinely 0 times. That doesn't mean that marking stuff is not useful. It just means that the time well spent doing it. Exactly. And the idea of marking, I think we should, it should be changed to feedback. Because obviously this is the thing where we, you know, do this podcast sometimes and say stuff people must think we don't want to do anything. As teachers, yeah, we obviously do. And it's obviously important that children know what they're doing, what's right with what's wrong, how they can fix it. But the traditional way of at 5:00 PM sat in the classroom on my own, ticking a book and writing in a book, hoping that the child picks up something in the next day when they have 10 seconds to read it. Before we go, and I've just spent an hour trying to learn it, yeah. And then we're expecting them to correct all the mistakes they made by reading a little comment in their book that's written by you. Yeah, it doesn't work.

34:28 It never has and it never will. You guys, you've got to pick up every single time they miss a capital letter. You've got to circle it and tell them, ohh, that's funny because I literally in person said to them five times during the lesson to remember that and they still didn't. And so is me writing in their book really gonna trigger that for them? It's a catch 22 because if it worked, you wouldn't be doing it for very long. Would you? If it worked, then ohh, there you go. You never have to do that again. But why is it then that four years down the line we're still circling capital letters in the same children's books? It didn't. It hasn't worked for four years and helped them correct it then. It's obviously not gonna work now. We need a different approach. Really agree and you know, we, you were talking earlier Hayden, about this kind of move that a lot of schools have done towards, you know, whole class feedback.

35:13 And again, I think there has to be a radical change and this is where we can do it because I think if we radically change the time taken maybe to prepare lessons that is going to have an adverse effect on outcomes in my opinion. So unless, obviously, I'm not talking about, you know, tweaking lessons you've already planned and put time into, I mean, if we say, oh, you know what, don't worry anymore. Yeah, we don't plan. Lessons don't plan and just go in and teach them stuff. Clearly we're not gonna cover the curriculum. Clearly that will have a detrimental impact on my opinion. Marking. I don't see it. I don't. I I this might be outlandish. I think that if I did not mark their books for a whole term, nothing would be different. Yeah, me too. Me too. And I'll tell you nothing. And I think most people will agree with this is because teaching is about feedback within the lessons.

35:58 And if the idea of marking right because some people will argue this, they'll say you need to mark the book so that you can find out what the kids can and can't do. In a lesson, I did the. Lesson. That's something people say though, isn't it? I did the lesson. And why is that wrong? Because I did the lesson with them. So when I did the lesson with them, I found out what they can and can't do. Yeah, and I'm being perfectly honest here, right? There's almost nothing that I teach that I won't recap over and go over and get anyone. So, like, I mean, there's very rare instances, but I think as teacher judgments, we can just be trusted to crack on with that, right? Where, you know, actually, no, they need targeted now. And it's because I've just read this. If it's generic stuff like capital letters in their writing, putting a full stop at the end things. I know they know what to do, by the way. Hmm.

36:45 That I'm not gonna get anything out of writing it and telling them, Yeah, because if you flick through their book, this is weird. You've done this every single time and followed this policy to the team and they still can't do it. Yeah. So that's not what is the app like? What is the point of marking? What is the point of marking? Is it to help them improve? It's not doing that. Yeah. Is it? So they know where they're going wrong. I'm already doing that verbally because I'm a teacher and if someone's not, of course I tell them to do. That do you think it helps? No children. Like there were zero children that are benefiting from having stuff written in the book. So, OK, look at it this way. That's it. Are there children out there who having something written in their book, they will read it and understand it and act on it? Yes, of course there are.

37:29 OK. Is it a majority of children? Absolutely not. Yeah. It is a small minority of children. Yeah. And I think, again, if we're looking at the holistic approach of how we can hit the most children in the best way possible through giving feedback, individual comments in books is not going to do it. Yeah. And I think if you've got that child, so, OK, imagine the situation. Any child, in my opinion, who is getting something out of individual feedback in their book will have already got it for my verbal feedback. Yeah. So that that child who doesn't get it from me telling them, but does from their book. Can exist. Here's the way I see it from a time perspective, right? If I spend an hour teaching a lesson. Genuinely, I'm I'm not making this up. I'm exaggerating. For those that are not.

38:09 In the teaching world, it would probably take on average one to one amount of time to mark a lesson that you thought it would take me an hour to mark a set of English books that I've just taught for I've done a writing lesson for an hour. It will take me an hour, if not more. It's only two minutes. Mark them right now. I don't think that. The impact from the second hour, the hour which I marked, is anywhere near the impact that I would have on those children. And they're learning their development in their hour of teaching, but we spend the same amount of time doing so. I'm like, OK, 95% of the of the learning and impact and development of those children comes from me teaching them me in the classroom as a professional who knows what they're doing and giving them constant feedback on the go, right?

38:50 Delivering lessons and changing how Adapting how I do things on the go and giving them verbal feedback. 5%, I'd say, of what develops that children and helps them learn comes from whatever I do in their book afterwards, yet we spend equal time on it. That's the way I see, 5% generous. Yeah, OK, that is generous. But being in year six, I do see I get the outliers because being in year 6, I teach a really, really great set of English, of kids in English. OK, so like, kids that are just really good at English. And those children are some of those children. Not even all of them. Some of those children really do respond. I can write them like a whole sentence in their book of how to how they should maybe have rethought about a paragraph or something and they will understand it. Sure.

39:35 And they will read it and they will actually have a go at like doing that thing. And for those kids, I'm like, OK, that's cool, that's fine. Also, I could have just said it to them so it didn't. I didn't need to write that. I'm just saying that at least at least for some kids, it it does have an impact, but I don't think it's worth the time in general when I could have spent an hour planning a really good lesson. Instead exactly, and thinking about the feedback I'm going to deliver to them all the next day and maybe join down on a post it note instead. Just a couple of names with one word summary next to them for me, just to remind me tomorrow. Speak to that kid, speak to that kid about this thing, and then you can actually show them live in front of them in their book. You know, I think that's better. There there is. I completely agree with you.

40:16 Then there is this attitude towards marking and I've heard this from teachers before and it's it's maybe it's a hangover from when we were younger. It's and. And we took our books on the end of the year and I know for a fact there is some anxiety about sending books home or or adults or parents seeing books. And there's no marking. There's no traditional markings from, again, from an outside point of view, if you don't see those ticks in the book, you think that I don't understand what's going on. And that's as simplistic as it gets because you're not in the profession. You don't understand. And that's a very small part of how we assess your child. Yeah. And but there is still a hangover from teachers who know that marking doesn't have much of an impact, who still think it's important to do because of the optics of it, of sending the book home or or, you know, thinking Ofsted might come in or a visitor might come in and flick through. And.

41:03 And there is this idea that if we don't see teacher pen in the book, yeah, that it's automatically bad teaching, no assessments going on. You don't know how your kids are going on. Yeah. And that needs to disappear. Yeah, we have become obsessed with evidence in in teaching. I don't know how long it's been like this, because it's been like this the whole time I've been doing it. But it is. We are. It is obsessive. This idea of unless something is evidenced on paper, it simply didn't happen. And that is just the way this career works. Do you know what the ultimate example of that is? Go on verbal feedback stamp. Ohh yeah, what? What do you mean? I have to stamp the book to say I gave verbal feedback? That's my job. That is literally my job. Like my job is to literally verbally feedback to the.

41:45 Children to people. Well guys, if you're listening to this, go and vote in the poll right now. Have you ever worked or do you work in a school where you when you have the evidence, verbal feedback that you've given? Yeah. So it's just like a really pointless extra step just to just to prove that you did. And again, you know, that suggests books that don't have that stamp in. You didn't talk to that kid. My goodness. And I get it because there's nuance and people might say no verbal feedback goes where you directly, you know, explain this misconception to someone. Yeah, so you're. But again, me putting that in as a stamp or not doesn't change whether I did it like yeah, I even did it or I didn't. It stops though, isn't it You. That's the optics like. Realistically, they care more about will someone. If someone sees that in the book, they're less likely to judge and, you know, end.

42:28 Up. So it doesn't matter. It's real, Yeah, because I'm going to be perfectly honest. I've done it a couple of times. Well, let me ask people put in, have it, have done it. Haven't put available feedback stamp in a while because I know someone's gonna pick me up for not being available. Feedback sticker. I know for a fact that I talked to this kid, so when I'm marking it later, I'll go, OK, that'll be. Back. There you go. Yeah, because I know I did it dumb. And it just another one of those exercises a teacher where you do it and you think, what are we doing to ourselves? We are obsessed with it. And the other thing? Evidence going going further here in terms of, I guess it's not marking, but you know, we can't possibly have a lesson where nothing in the book. Hmm, can't possibly do that. We have to put in the book that we did a lesson where nothing was in the book. We have to.

43:10 We have to. Put a picture in a show that they were really do anything in the book that they know We just did something in the book to say we did nothing in the book. Yeah. What What You could have the thing. Sorry. You got how many lessons have you done when it's like practical or you're literally doing something where you just happen to not be in a book because slash you can learn about writing in a book. Yeah. So how many times you and you've not actually got the book out-of-the-box. Never. No. Because the book always comes out and it's so funny cause always joke for my kids. Like, right kids we're gonna write in the book today that we're not using the book and they're like, what? And I'm like, yeah, exactly. Yeah. We need to make sure everyone knows not using the book today. So let's get the books out. Otherwise what they think, kids, they might think we've gone down the cinema again. That's a macaroni and cheese, no?

43:52 Like, come on. Honestly, if you see a date missing, guess what? I was doing something right in the book. Yeah. Like there's your evidence. Where's the lack of my evidence that I was? Yeah. But today? You knew I was in the class when I'm in one of my first years of teaching when we were at the same school. I was pulled up for like just something to do with it. I can't remember what it was, but something to do with marking like ohh, this isn't in your book or that's not in the books or this isn't very clear. Something about my marking not being good enough in the books I remember just sat there with really, really, really good data. Thinking, OK, which point? At which point do I show them the outcomes or do they not matter? Right.

44:34 And again, it was like, yeah, they don't matter in that moment. They didn't matter because the only thing that that SLT were interested in at the moment was the optics of the book and how they looked and how they might be interpreted. It didn't matter that my kids had absolutely smashed these tests recently and got really good data that I was really proud of and like, really hoping to show off. There's a list of things. You've done wrong. Didn't mark the book didn't do that properly. Like, yeah, it doesn't matter, does it? Because they they learned. Clearly learned. Here's the proof that they actually learned. Not the marking, the book. Yeah, but this teacher's got 17%. And they've got 12 verbal feedback stamps. Well OK, but they're dated. Rubbish. Ohh man. So Ohh is that But that matters more. OK so like bring it back, let's bring it back round cause we're already going off on money one.

45:20 Yeah So what What can we do? Like what what is good marking? Cause Dylan said at the start marking a feedback feedback to the children is obviously vital. We're not sat here saying yeah just scrap marking another thing we don't need to do. We're saying scrap marking in its current form because it takes up an unbelievable amount of time and has an unbelievably small impact. But replace it with something better. Maybe something that we already already. Actually naturally do all the time. So Dylan, what would you how would your solution be? Sure. Your imaginary school. Now, I'm going to simplify this, right? You know, really simplify this. And I'm going to go back to what we want the children to get out of it. OK, OK. So I want the children to know and understand what they've done well and what they can do better.

46:02 Yeah. If the children understand that and I give them an opportunity to act on it and be taught something again or practise something again that that is the goal achieved. So I think we've marking what we have to do is professional. I start at the end goal, OK. I know how the children are getting on, they know how they're getting on and we can work towards filling those gaps and reminders, et cetera, et cetera. And I can build that into my teaching. OK. Then we have to work backwards from that and say OK, what kind of feedback policy will help that be put in place. And I think really strong verbal communication as a professional, which happens anyway. I think really strong planning because that that we know in the 1st place that this is being addressed, reacting to what we, having taught our class, know that there are general weaknesses and reacting to that and putting it in place so they can practise it again the next day.

46:51 And having a really strong line of communication with your children in a much more effective way, which is simply talking to them and and and acting on that in lesson. Now, do I think we should still mark stuff? Actually, yes. I think it's still good. I think it's always more powerful to mark with the children in class because at that point they're there, they see what they did wrong. You can literally explain it to them. I think it works a lot better in maths and we literally do that in maths where not only is it you can mark with the children, the policy is you should be marking with the children because you can immediately address the feedback instant feedback. And then any children who really were kind of didn't understand that they you can do an intervention with them straight away and and and that's it. That's all you need.

47:33 OK. And will you have a cursory look at the books? Of course I will cause I wanna check presentation. I wanna make sure actually, ohh I I noticed a few children were marking it incorrectly and I'm going to teach them how to mark or I'll mark it with them in the lesson while everyone else is maybe. Mark. But doesn't. How long does that take? Not long like minutes. Yeah, like a flick through the books, right? Ohh, flick through the books. What per book, That's what I'm saying at this point. At this point in my career right now, I can spend 10 seconds looking at work and know what misconceptions around and how they're getting on. Yeah, it might be when I was when I was an ECT, maybe that was 45 seconds a minute. Yeah, OK, really looking through. But genuinely right now, knowing, having experience, knowing what the objective was for that lesson, knowing the weaknesses of the class, knowing the weaknesses of the child. Because I talked to them every single day and I teach them. I can look at a book if 15 seconds. So you're telling me you don't need to write a positive comment in their book followed by a verbal feedback? Stick around.

48:23 Because you know what? I'll do what? I'll be really nice to them in real. Life. Hmm, and I'll appreciate. It when you're giving positive feedback, you know it happens sometimes, especially lower down and. We speak. What does this say in my book? So I've written it and I have to go and tell them anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I could just told them it. Yeah. Just said come out. What does this say that says you must remember to actually write down your sentences? A lot of schools have come up with ways you know how, that children don't read the feedback. And a lot of a lot of schools are ways it's OK right, to make the kids to ensure they read it. You have to read it and then like put. They have to even answer it or put their initials next to like that comment. What's your thought on that? It's so funny because you know a big part of our, you know, marking policy and again I think it's a good thing is you might have like generic next steps for children like as a class after this lesson that I taught you. You know quite a lot of us forgot to use a question mark for a question.

49:17 So I know the next day as a whole class we're gonna go through this together. But always with this kind of approach of whole class you're going to get 2-3 or four who kind of have their own really adamant that comes first ignore questions because you literally maybe you weren't forming your. Left unique bit of feedback, it's really unique. Really relevant to everybody else. Yeah. And it's more pressing. Yeah. So it's like, ohh. It's not like Ohh. You could add flair and detail to your work. OK, fine. But let's practise this still. It's like there's a more pressing issue. Yeah. And I want to work with you guys. I think with with those guys, it's important to give them specific next steps. Yeah. But again, you'll be going to work with them, you know, I mean, you won't be leaving them to do something. I I just think you can hit things like that much more easily with generic next steps, understanding your children.

50:01 You don't need to individually write in the book. I just don't think that's, yeah. Do you know I would do? In my imaginary school, and I think it it relies on something that just doesn't exist in our profession anymore, which is trust. And it just doesn't though, does it? Like there really is no trust in our profession anymore? Like teacher assessments went out the window years ago. Nothing is teacher assessed anymore. What do you mean? Because. No, sorry. As in like actual like Sats and stuff, right. It's not like no one cares what the teachers we still have to do. We still have to do. Yeah, that's about the only one. And even that's still. Play goes through some sort of moderation and all the foundation subjects are teacher assessed. Yeah, yeah, but but the government that. Really cares. Yeah, it's true.

50:41 They don't they. Yeah, that's. Not published. They don't care about that. They only care about the one that's not. That's that's my point. We care about when they're making you feel like rubbish because. You're not that one, Teachers assessed. We don't care about one. Is this one an exam? Brilliant, you know. So anyway, so I think trust has just gone out the window really with teaching. So what I would do if I was in charge and I could and you know, I had. Employed my my teachers and I trust them because I'm paying them. Well, yeah. Of course I would. It's I would say to them, and it's not really a good policy because it's not black and white. But I would say to them, if you feel like by the end of you teaching that lesson, you already know what you need to teach next lesson. As in you've just gone around, you've looked at the work, you've helped them, you've discussed with them, and you already picked up what the next steps are. Generally, for your next lesson, you don't need to open the books and start writing that in them.

51:30 There you go, You have to mark that lesson. If you get to the end of the lesson, however, and you think it would be worth. The time to flick through the books and just check because you don't feel confident that so and so and so and so and all these people over here, you're not actually too sure you maybe didn't get to see them much in the less you're not too sure if they got it or not. Then flick through the books. And if you want to mark them, you can. If you want to just take a post it note to remind you of something to say tomorrow, that's fine. Like, I just wish we had this trust system of you're a teacher, your job is literally to get the best progress out of them. So of course you care about what they've done in the lesson. You don't need to mark everything, but it might still have a place sometimes. So in your imagination, yeah, how would you combat? And we don't like saying this. There will be teachers who completely take advantage of that. Yeah, right.

52:12 Sure, sure. How how would you combat that without putting in place some kind of stringent policy? I just think measure the progress. So I think it's straightforward, honestly. Like if kids are making we know average, how would you do that? Would you pick up a book and look at it? No, I look at that as I look like writing. Let's say writing. OK, so let's say it's English writing. Yeah, that's a really one way of feedback I think is incredibly important. Yeah. So we wanna make sure that that that trust is great and for 90% of it will be brilliant. But there's maybe there's someone who just isn't doing it, isn't picking up on those basics and and you know, you as SLT have. No way. How? How do I identify it? So how would you identify it? Because if your answer is you pick up and look at the book, you're saying that your staff, your teacher doesn't even have to do that, but you're gonna then do that to judge. So that's different. So moderation to me is different.

52:53 So I still think I still believe in having like periods. Set times across the year where we measure it, we just assess children and we measure progress, right? And that has to happen for the subjects as a. Group yeah. As you know, everyone does all the classes when it comes to writing. I think because it's such a different subject. Like with maths, you can be a test. With GPS it can be a test. Reading can be a test. With writing it can't really be a test. It probably could, but it just isn't these days. I think we just go to what we do for that one and I just think we have maybe at Christmas, Easter, summer, there's just a moderation and we sit down as a staff team and we and we moderate writing and we look and that's how our STI. Identify whether I'm thinking something's going wrong in a class, and at that point we'd have you know, you'd have to get involved. Maybe that trust has been broken at that point. Things will change because at the end of the day, you trusted that teacher and if they've broken your trust. Then yeah, OK, other things gonna have to be put in place now that you didn't wouldn't want to have in your normal culture.

53:43 But I think for the teachers that are just trustworthy and doing the right thing, I think is enough to just look at the progress to every two terms and just see if those kids are going and heading in the right direction. We have so much data on children nowadays, it's very easy to spot if a child starts going off track, really easy to spot that. I think that'll be enough. So do you think it's, do you think that as as primary staff, do you think it would be a good idea, a good payoff? Like we've been saying things about pay off, we don't want to give too much detriment to the children at all. Umm, do you think obviously reducing what we write in the books is obviously a really quick way to lower that. Do you think literally how long will you go about looking at the book would be acceptable to you even looking at it? Because, for example, I'd say every single lesson. I always look at that.

54:31 I always look at it, and I might give it a cursory take if we marked it together, or I might not even do anything if we marked it together. I might highlight it. What what would you say you know? Would you be happy if all week of of history the teachers not even look at the I think the 2nd that in my imaginary world here the 2nd that a number gets put to that then the system failed already but every day it would just be like the standard. So you would take away every day and you'd say. I literally wouldn't monitor it if I'm in the perfect scenario right way. All my teachers are trustworthy, right? I'm not someone trying to take advantage. Doesn't matter. It's literally relevant to me, I suppose. Two weeks? Fine. Three days? Fine. It is just, but the point is fantastic. Yeah, because I think the the point is, you know, you said it's the best situation where everyone is that realistic.

55:15 I thought you meant realistic in my imagination, no. Is it realistic? Yeah, because I'm living here and I've forgot that it's not real. I know that's because I, I, I, I I'm really stringently agreeing with you. I don't think that's realistic. And I think we have to be realistic sometimes and cut some slack to people who put these things in place because I think they start off very much like, OK, well we need to just make sure that things are being done properly. I think very, very very rarely does it start maliciously. Like I'm gonna waste teachers time, but. The problem is, I've always, always then just slits back down. It's just a slippery slope immediately back down into evidencing. It just goes back down and then you know what happens? I've been there. I've been there. Hospital schools where the you know the the best intention has started something right. And it's lasted a matter of months before SLT start twitching because there's just not enough. They just don't know if they're teachers are doing good point and then suddenly it's oh you know that you know that feedback you've been given.

56:11 I tell you what rather than just giving it, would you mind just writing it on this sheet, just typing it up and saving in this folder And I'll tell you what I've been looking at that sheet and it would be nice, wouldn't it? Along with that feedback, if you did this and this and this, and then you listed the top five in the bottom five children as well. I tell you what and then it's just something else. Then suddenly doing this like feedback to the class becomes a a 35 minute job after school where you have to type something up for SLT. Yeah, and it's like ohh, that's how long it would take me to mark the books. So I think it always sits back down. I think the only way it's going to work is with complete trust and you need a really, really, really strong SLT team who go into classrooms all the time and are like really involved with their teachers and style, they actually supporting them all the time, who in the same way that me of my class. 32 I'm constantly, constantly assessing the children in my class and I'm knowing where they all are and I'm knowing who's falling behind.

57:02 I'm knowing who's doing a good job. I think SLT should be doing the same thing with their staff team. They are our managers. They should be supporting us and being involved and they should know. I think our SLT should be able to tell us, like if someone should be able to question them and say what's you know, what's what's Hayden Maths teaching like, what's progress been like, are his kids engaged and what they're doing. I think they should be able to answer that question in the same way I should be able to answer the same question about a child in my class, and I think that should be enough. Good assault team should be able to say to the teachers. Give feedback. Make give feedback to make progress. We're not going to look in your books unless we feel the need to. Unless something something's arisen because we've been in a room and we've noticed that children are jumping on, but then you know SLT will be looking in books more often than a teacher start basing.

57:48 Apology. Yeah, that's fine. That's fine, but then what are SLT gonna see in the book? Which is more important that the. Teacher. Just little things, like if they saw the children were behaving right and they're worried that the teacher was though right? Yeah, this is different exactly. So they're not looking for the same. Reasons like marking and feedback. They might have been checking it just to make sure, like other kids achieving it. So you wouldn't, you wouldn't say to check the book for progress? I'd I'd say use the assessment points for that. OK, but how? How does going on here? I wanna dive it? How? How would a teacher get accurate assessment points for each individual child without literally looking at their work? We're test. I'm saying no, but like OK English writing. OK, no, I'm thinking of English writing this time. That's to me, that's the ultimate marketing thing. Like that's what takes longest.

58:32 So for sure. OK, history then. How can we know where a child is on their chronological awareness, or their ability to explain the community aspect of the history or the invasion or anything like that? Yeah, without looking. At the way it depends what you do. Like I know our school we have like an end of unit essentially not a test but we do like a task at the end which is like a summary of all knowledge. Look at that one. But that goes back to my original point was if you think if you think you need to look at the books to get, I'm not saying never look at the books. My point was if you get to the end of the lesson and you feel like you will gain nothing from looking at the books then don't waste your time. If you feel like that you that you should look at the books. Because maybe you've missed something or you just want to check to see if you miss something. You should, just when it comes to history, it's like, yeah, maybe you'll teach the first four lessons and you don't need to look at the book any point in those ones. You're happy within the lessons.

59:22 You know what? People have got to look at more than one lesson at a time. Yeah. But when it comes to an assessment point, which is we legally have to do that, then maybe it is wise then at the end of that unit to do something where you say, right, actually I am going to look and mark this one because it's specific to this situation. I do need to know how they've gone and that's my assessment. I just think that there's the trust, you know, to say and mark with the kids. Yeah, yeah. That's going to be a great way for you not to have a look at the books because you can just see straight away. But I don't know. I hope that summarises. No, no. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I'm digging because this imaginary school, but I think it's so easy for people like us and we do it all the time, You know, we'll think something's wrong and then we'll go down this idealistic route of what it should be. I just think with marking, I think there's always going to be this accountability and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but I wouldn't know how to tackle when it wasn't going the way I wanted it to go.

1:00:13 Yeah, like if we give all that complete freedom, which is great for 99% of teachers. If I was SLT and there were thirty children who were under my care literally because a teacher wasn't doing something properly. Yeah, yeah. And I just say, well I just trust them. But they weren't doing it. I I can see there how? OK, Ohh. Let's just have this at least a set of rules that we have to follow to give feedback. I think my response to that whole point of that analogy about like teachers may be taking a teacher, taking advantage right of that system and then seeing as a way not to do it, not doing it well, even trying to do it. But it's not good. Let's just think just because it's kind of separate, but like the specific example of someone being like, oh, I can get away with not doing either, like not really taking any feedback in the lesson and just not walking ever.

1:00:57 I like, I think my point, my reply to someone saying that feels like salt saying that's why we shouldn't do it. I say, OK, what does the current system work? You got no one taking advantage, no one doing a bad job marking correctly. The same people were just abuse the system like they just won't mark correctly anyway. Those same people are the ones that will look at the book, put Fortress strategically placed ticks in places and rugby and right VF somewhere and put a sticker somewhere and but not really taking anything because I'm just trying to get it done. They won't go. They're not interested. And the more stringent and, you know, intensive the marking policy, the less I marked properly because I'm like, oh, my God. OK, well, I've got to check this and this and this and this and this. Hmm. OK, well, OK. I'm gonna make it look OK. OK, cool.

1:01:39 And then I just look at what I think is actually the useful thing and for my own benefit. Yeah. And I'm just like jumping through hoops. Like so You're already doing my thing, yeah? You do my thing, you're looking for the bit that's useful to you to give you actual assessment, and you're playing ball by doing the completely pointless bit that takes up three hours. So, well, there you go. What's the point in marketing? Yeah, what do you guys think? I'm saying, what do you think? I know most people. Think you're made-up school? What is it? What's the marking policy? What's the feedback? Maybe that's like a future podcast we do. It's just like our imaginary school. You just build this. School. I do wanna do that. I've mentioned that before. Yeah, that's why it. Would be quite fun your idea. Now, I've mentioned that to you off this podcast and he's just said it on the podcast.

1:02:21 If we get some hymns and you fill in the blanks, thank you for being our haven't got there. I'm literally, I'm, I'm here right now. Looking forward to listening to that bit again because people had their best time for half an hour, then they listen to you go on about marketing. So I wanna know if you agree or not, cause like Dylan said, we do get into, we go down these little thought trains and this probably. I hate it, I hate it, we missed. That is the one thing that makes me resent the job the most is when I'm sat knowing I've got 90 bucks to get through life. No, no. And and 95% of this is completely. Irrelevant. You're not gonna get home now for for two more hours and nothing will change and nothing will change. No better outcomes for the kids and no information for you that you didn't already know. Yeah. 90% of the time.

1:03:04 So guys, moral of this story is, what's the point in marking? Not much, really. All right. You really want to say something. Yeah, what's the What's the point in marking? I don't know. But what is the point in marking? Or the point of marking really should be to be providing children with feedback, say point of marketing one more time. So the point of market, point of marking is why are you mark this podcast out of five stars? I probably give it 4.9. Would you ohh guys give us a 5 star review? Team Ohh no. Just disgruntled SLT members that love marking policies. Watching this today. I love writing things down in books that aren't read properly.

1:03:47 Right. Yeah. We go wrap up because we got on. Yeah. Two way while over an hour. Hot again. Yeah. When will that end? Yeah, right, Sandy. Soon. We'll see you next.