Ep 19: Gareth Metcalfe: Making Resources, Teaching Problem Solving & Maths 'Anxiety'

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Hello everyone.
Welcome back to the next

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installment of teach sleep.
Repeat, my name is Dylan and my

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name is Hayden and you could
tell by our wide Smiles that

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we've just had an amazing
recording for this episode with

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another guest.
You know, it is, you've seen the

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title we're going to get into it
really, really quickly.

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But Hayden, I'm going to do some
plugging, okay?

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You don't mean to do it.
No, because you don't never

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remember correctly.
When you have to, when you have

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explained already joke.
Is it really works?

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Well, does it?
But anyway, I'm going to work.

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Just now plug some of our social
media.

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Test my memory because there's a
different one but every single

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platform Iran.
So on the spot you can find us

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on Instagram.
I know you can find us on

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Instagram at teach sleep, repeat
podcast.

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You can email us or email us on
our Gmail at you sleep, repeat

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POD at gmail.com and we are now
on Twitter come and find us.

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It's me you to eat.
Hey, that's got his own one.

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He's too busy running that
personal account, you can find

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us at TH s our podcast on
Twitter.

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Now, am I positive?
That's the actual name.

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No.
But if it's made the cut, then

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it is so Make sure you find us
there and that's the problem.

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Having seven different names for
the different things anyway,

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Hayden.
How excited are you for this

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chapter about how?
Well, as you've already said,

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we've recorded it, but it's
damn.

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It wasn't amazing.
Let's not pretend, I just a

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pretend we have a just recorded
it.

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It's an incredible Chaska
slipper, the viewers or

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listeners have got an exciting
conversation upcoming.

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If they are as nerdy about
mouths, as you and I are There

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is one thing that Hayden and
it's a problem for some people

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who are listening in order for
the podcast to continue playing.

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You need to give us a five star
review.

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So as long as you've done that
do that now really quickly, if

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you're listening, give us a five
star review, gets us more guess

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in the future, more amazing
chats, but the podcast has

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actually stopped.
If you don't do that, and send

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us five pounds in the past,
right?

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So yeah, 500 500 pounds.
Anyway.

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Yeah.
Shall we have the chat that we

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definitely not had yet and just
a pre-recording this.

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Let's move on to the chat.
We're about to have We are

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really lucky today to be joined
with another guest, mr.

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Garreth Metcalfe himself who I
personally have been a big fan

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or for a very long time.
I know that Dylan has been

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laughing at me for a fanboying
behind the scenes on the lead-up

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to, to this episode.
So Gareth just want to say a

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huge.
Thank you for joining us.

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Let's dive straight in and let
the viewers and listeners know a

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little bit more about you and
why you're here today.

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So Gareth could you just
introduce yourself and let us

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know, perhaps, you know, what is
your involvement in the Teaching

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wild.
Yeah, thanks.

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Hayden is really great to be
here and kind of my background

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professionally.
So, I did my nqt down south and

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then I've been at one school at
one school in Stockport for

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Jack's, beloved, for 12 years,
an amazing time, there it in my

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time there, I did a little bit
of work with Stockport local

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Authority and supporting with
math.

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Specifically, I wrote a lot of
resources around maths and I was

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very lucky to work with a
literacy.

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An amazing man and literacy
consultant that many list.

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As well.
Know I've called Alan Pete and

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publish my first ever Resources
with Alan and which was

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fantastic, but I guess my
passion, then just became

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specifically in maths teaching
and I love the school I was at,

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but I wanted to broaden my
teaching experience and so in

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2017 took a really difficult
decision at the time to leave.

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But to work directing my own
company.

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I see maths and but what I
wanted to do is broaden my

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teaching experience as well.
So, in that move, I made sure

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that there were a number of
schools somewhere in England,

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simran, North Wales where it
have an ongoing teaching

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commitment.
So, I ended up teaching classes

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from Nursery to year 6, and in a
range of different types of

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schools demographics, which was
just fantastic.

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Really enjoyed that.
And then, as spending some time

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writing resources, ever since
and doing some training, and

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really that kind of Meandering
journey is still where I'm at

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now.
And really enjoying it.

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Well, I remember, I remember
your first resources back in

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maybe I guess about 2017 because
I purchased one of your first I

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see reasoning PDFs.
And I was in awe because I was

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quite a fresh teacher at this
point and I actually came to see

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you as well at one of your
training events around that

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time, and I remember just
sitting there as I have fairly

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new teacher thinking, this guy
is teaching.

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Is this guys doing it?
Exactly how I imagined the

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master is supposed to be taught.
And just using your resources,

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go around the school saying,
come on, we got to use these.

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Got to use these because this
is, this is how we should be

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teaching children, how to solve
problems.

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So thank you for doing that.
It must have been quite a scary

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leap for you at the time, but
clearly, clearly, a really good

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one.
So, with regarding your

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resources, where are they kind
of act now?

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Because obviously, that was a
long time ago that I I looked

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into those have you have used
kind of developed a whole Packer

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of resources.
Now, that's a much larger than

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yeah.
Well, that's really interesting

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story because my the First-ever
resources actually wrote and the

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ones that are referenced that
were published by by Alan.

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Pete were requite off the wall
at Sea and were real kind of

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passion project of mine.
The first one was called the

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maths apprenticeship and and it
was around extended real life

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challenges at that point for
year six children and so had

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some amazing memories which we
may refer to later of rolling

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out those tasks.
And and I wrote some other

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resources as well which will
really like looking at really

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Richie Aging, Matt's tasks that
at that time, were more aimed at

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children.
High retaining children and I

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remember writing a blog post,
quite a while ago.

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And that was when I was new to
writing blog posts which which

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probably had and in our thought
I'm just going to I'm going to

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share some examples of something
more, the kind of tasks that I

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do on a day-to-day basis and I
didn't really expect them to

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particularly people's interest,
but I actually had an enormous

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Reaction to that original blog
post and it made me think well

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actually what I really want to
focus my effort on is how do I

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help teachers that?
And I say time, pressure

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teachers and of course that's
all teachers to have some

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resources.
Great open-ended resources,

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interesting thought-provoking
challenges at the fingertips

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right across the breadth of a
primary maths curriculum.

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Something you could more use on
a day-to-day basis.

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And in doing that, I had like a
huge bank that I've used with

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it.
With the classes that I taught

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which were primarily in up, Key
Stage 2 and and really I guess,

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ever since then, I've looked,
you know, over the course of

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time, particularly working
different classes.

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You realize you pick up new
ideas.

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I follow other people and I
think, oh, that's a technique.

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I could build in.
And so the resources, keep

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growing and my aim over the
course of time will be to keep

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doing that same thing.
But you really big Banks of

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resources but I guess the idea
is How is it?

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We give children tasks that.
Don't just develop the content

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knowledge, but also provide them
opportunities to be creative or

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to have to persevere to find
multiple possible answers, and

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to be able to see different
perspectives.

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So, it's whilst I want the
children to have the opportunity

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to develop that content
knowledge as well through the

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tasks.
I also hope it just gives them a

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different experience of engaging
in in maths and kind of builds

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their, if you like the
characteristics of learning as

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well.
I'm going to come in quickly

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because I'm something you said
there.

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I noticed a lot in your resource
for.

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I've seen it before where you
had certain levels and I love

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those kind of ideas of going
going deeper and deeper.

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And you think find one answer
find as many answers as you can

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find all the answers.
And that idea of, I was able to

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give that to my class and some
children were just working at

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the level of finding an answer.
And then I had some who very

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quickly moved on to finding as
many answers as possible and

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others who are coming over ideas
of how to make sure they've got

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all the possible ways and it was
amazing to see as a man.

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Ask teacher that so that a whole
group of different abilities,

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being able to access kind of the
same tasks and that idea of

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actually, it's how far you go
and that kind of opened up my

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thinking to approach a mats in
that kind of way of, you know,

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that kind of Mastery idea of
everyone's achieving the same

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out.
The same goal, the same

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objective, but they're all
getting there in different ways

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and pushing themselves to
different levels and that kind

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of click something for me.
And I thought I'd love to be

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able to approach all of my math
teaching and that way which I

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think is really powerful.
Yeah, I think like one That

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that's always really driven me.
Is the idea that I think Max is

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unique in the range of emotions
that it invokes.

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And that's something that I
always think is precious about

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about mass.
And whenever there are certain

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kinds of tasks that where
children have to be able to

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self-regulate and it gives them
the opportunity to, and to

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explore to a greater extent.
Then I feel that they experience

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Taste of the actual richness of
what it is to be a

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mathematician.
If you like rather than just to

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develop the content knowledge.
And I think it's been that

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that's been the thread which is
gone right throughout all my

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kind of resource creation and
that's certainly the intention

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anyway.
No idea absolutely did it really

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did what we're going to do now
though very quickly we did this

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last time we had a guest and
it's something we're trying out

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because we finished it last time
and the poor person said I felt

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The pressure doing that, so
we're not trying to do that to

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make that.
Clear.

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But we're going to play a quick
kind of game.

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Okay, so we're going to I'm
going to say one word, I'll do

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an example on Hayden now.
Okay, so if for example, I said

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to Hayden the gym, I'd want him
to come back to me and say the

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first word that comes to his
mind.

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So, Hayden the gym terrifying,
you know, so something he might

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want to avoid so, well, that
will say, I'll say a word and

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just your first thought coming
back to it.

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You ready?
You're up for this?

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Absolutely.
Okay, we tried to pick some

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relevant ones as well.
So first one, number one rote,

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learning necessary.
The times table, check your 40.

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I'm good necessary.
Yeah.

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All the way through.
Okay marking Marking.

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More or less specific.
Oh, I can explain that.

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Just oh if you want me to you
can go and explain it because

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the idea is breaking the
sometimes marking we can be less

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specific.
Feeling willing talks about

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this.
And for a correct or incorrect

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little.
There is this is we need to be

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more specific, but I like the
idea of giving children more

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work to do, where is absolutely?
Okay, let's keep going staff

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training.
Ongoing.

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English.
English.

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I said no, my mind is gone.
That's why I'm not trying to be

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mean I promise.
Okay.

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A couple more ready.
Yeah.

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The key stage 2 SATs.
Unlimited.

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Oh, teacher well-being.
Crucial.

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Maths investigations.
And Rich, mmm.

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And the last one, we always
finish with this one because I

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just find it interesting to see
what people say straight away

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ofsted.
Necessary evil.

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Brilliant all eyes.
That's my favorite one yet.

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Very good.
Okay.

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So the idea of that is we just
get to break the ice a little

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bit and sometimes like we did
with marking, we can just dive

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in a bit deeper there.
And I think the one thing that I

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found interesting was when you
said Rich from Mass

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investigations because I've
found in the past of Master

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vestigation.
Is this kind of linked to us?

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Suppose your resource creation?
Is it could it used to be a

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little bit like when I started
my career?

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That when it came to
investigations or even problem

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solving and maths, it would be a
Friday job and that would come

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from SLT down and it would be
like well it's problem solving

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for its word problem Friday and
I feel like as a as a whole

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profession thankfully I think
with moving away from that a lot

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now because I think a lot of
people when the new curriculum

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came in, maybe thought it was
just trendy to kind of shoehorn

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it in there and just say oh
we're doing a problem-solving

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day and I think problem solving
is a lot more nuanced than that

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now.
So just wondering really what's

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your kind of opinion on the
place of problem?

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In the curriculum and how we can
kind of embed that a bit more

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wholesome, a bit of a more
wholesome approach instead of it

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just kind of being shoehorned on
and being a word problem, which

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doesn't really Encompass
problem.

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Solving that.
Yeah, well it's a great question

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and hopefully I can touch on
just some of my some of my

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random responses there.
And I'd like to think of problem

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solving as being the the end
that we're aiming at.

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And and so when we talk about
things like the times, Table

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check and maybe we could you
know how everything going to use

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the word necessary.
And and fluency, I would see

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that as almost a means to the
end.

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And the end being we want
children to be able to engage in

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Breakdown, all kinds of
different problem-solving tasks.

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And, and we know that flute,
flute, recalled times table.

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Facts is not the enemy of that.
It's not the opposite of that.

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It's just it, lessens, the
burden on working memory and but

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the thing that I think is really
important is we don't see.

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Problem solving is the thing
that as A is the icing on the

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cake but more that this is
fundamentally, when we look at

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why we even engage children in
mathematics, it's you think it's

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about it's partly or a, to a
large extent.

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It's actually about them being
able to break down different

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types of problems and think
independently to build these

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skills.
And so I think of problem

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solving, in terms of let's say
there's a there's a sequence of

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lessons and we think we want the
children to be engaging this

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kind of tap.
Kind of tasks and to have the

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skills in a toolbox to break
this down and to explore this

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kind of task and I would think
well how do we work backwards

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from that rather than
problem-solving Friday?

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I don't think the issue is that
we doing the problems.

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It's just it's just a disconnect
and like we refer to and I think

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we know that we need a lot of
domain-specific knowledge to

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have success in problem solving
and I think I under-appreciated

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earlier my career how important
that domain specific knowledge

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was Probably thought, if I build
shouldn't ability to problem,

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solving one aspect of the
curriculum, then they'll be able

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to do it in another as well.
And it's probably more reliant

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on that domain specific
knowledge.

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But I think the thing that's
really important is thinking,

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well, how do we target?
Well we want to pick the

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children to be able to engage in
these kinds of problem-solving

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tasks and therefore the journey
for them to get there.

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We'll need to look like this and
for that to be coherent.

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And I guess one of the issues
that That I see where there's an

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over and over Alliance on
schemes.

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I think if we just blindly
follow a scheme, what we in some

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instances, we might end up with
is the highest attaining

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children doing the problem
solving at the end of the

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lesson.
And I think it's really

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important that we model what
expert problem solving looks

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like, and we provide sequences
of challenges that build shuns

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capacity to problem solve and
rather than it being something.

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Because to some extent that
perhaps is an element to which

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we can consider.
Well, the children can meet

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age-related expectation without
having to go that deep within

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the problem solving and I think
that's process.

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Perhaps it's like kind of
Separation that that use

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completely true because I know
for a fact Hayden lion and all

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teachers we can fall into that
trap and you hear things

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sometimes and we probably been
guilty of saying in the past

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where we think.
Okay well you know, in terms of

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data for these children they can
get X amount of marks on the

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arithmetic paper, and we can
really focus on that fluency and

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really get them to be practicing
that over and over again, and

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not necessarily exposing those
children to problem solving

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that's appropriate for their
ability and their understanding

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of those Basics.
So a big thing we did in school

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was we did a lot of Staff
training and trying to implement

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the idea of problem solving for
everyone.

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What you just said and we can't
save it as a challenge.

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It's not a challenge.
It is the maths.

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It's as fundamental as that and
the idea of okay, how can we

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Sure that those children who may
be struggled to meet age related

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standards in arithmetic and
don't meet that level of fluency

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for their age expectation.
How can we study ensure that

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those children are receiving?
Enriching problem-solving

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activities which are relevant
for them.

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And the kind of conclusion we
came to was that it's okay to.

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If you're, for example, teaching
a fraction to unit.

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If your child still may be
working at a year below level or

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not quite there.
It's okay to dip back into the

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curriculum, a bit lower to
provide them with those.

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Problem solving ability those
chances to do problem solving in

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a way where they're confident
with the maths and the

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structures of what they've got
to do.

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But then their cognitive load is
really focused on actually

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breaking down the problem rather
than struggling to do the math

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in the first place in which case
we see a lot of children, hit a

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brick wall and they can't access
it.

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Absolutely absolutely.
And that is the advice that I

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would give a guess.
Really.

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And looking for the tasks, like,
when we're looking for

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problem-solving tasks, we're
looking for something where

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there's not a clearly defined.
G2 to find the answer.

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00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:58,300
And, and we might have to think.
Well, where do we lessen the

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Challenge from to make that
accessible.

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And, and like, the most obvious
example, would be the number

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range that that quite the task
itself asks us to work with

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them.
But considering how is it that

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we still engage children in
those kinds of tasks?

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Because I do think as well with
it even with a SATs papers they

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a lot of the problems, what we
would consider the worded

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questions, the problem-solving
tasks are Are relatively

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00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:26,500
routine.
And there are some big you're a

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00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:30,200
little bit more off the wall and
but there's a degree to which

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you can predict some of the
structures that will exist.

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And but I do think it's really
important that children have

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that balance of experience so
that there aren't too many too

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many like their experience of
math is doesn't become too close

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and too limited and even
including the kind of emotional

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00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,200
responses that I would like to
have Walk through when their

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attainment slower.
I think we is easy to see how

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that can happen for a child is
attainment is higher.

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But I think like, you say, it's
incumbent on us to think.

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We'll how is it that we can
ensure?

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That all children are given
those those experiences

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absolutely.
And even on a Tuesday May it

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doesn't have to be a Friday.
Gareth, I know you've made

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videos and you still do make
videos which are upload to

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Youtube and I imagine other
places as well and I've been

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00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,900
really fascinated fascinated
with a few of them because I've

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actually seen That you have
taken stats questions, and

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you've kind of systemically kind
of broken them down.

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You know what's your when you're
doing that?

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00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:34,700
What is your advice to other
teachers?

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00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:37,300
What's your procedure for
breaking down?

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00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:40,000
The typical kind of SATs
problem.

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That's maybe a couple of steps
and actually teaching children

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ways to solve these problems
without just going through

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because I thought I fall into
this trap all the time.

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00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,400
I'll go through a particular
SATs paper or question.

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00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,100
But I don't really feel like the
children are getting loads from

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00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:58,700
from that from that, you know,
simply just solving that one

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00:19:58,700 --> 00:20:01,900
problem, but I feel like you do
it in a different way that opens

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00:20:01,900 --> 00:20:06,000
up a whole new Avenue of being
able to actually teach children

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00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,400
how to solve problems.
Yeah.

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00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,700
Thank you know this is something
that I'm really passionate about

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00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:13,100
and I have to say this is one of
those things where I feel really

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00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:16,400
privileged because all of my
thinking I can I can invest into

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00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,100
maths teaching.
Whereas you know I know how

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00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,700
challenging it is when you're
full-time class teaching you

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00:20:21,700 --> 00:20:23,100
maybe have other
responsibilities.

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00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:26,300
To really spend the time you'd
need to dig into one question

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00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:28,400
and think, how can I break this
down?

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00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,200
The thing?
I kind of keep referring to is

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00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,400
and is a research paper, which
you'd be able to find if you

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00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,200
Googled it, which is removing
opportunity to calculate improve

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00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,800
student performance, on
subsequent, word problems.

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00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:47,100
And the kind of the, the basic
binding was if we initially take

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00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:50,900
away the possibility of children
telling you the answer, then

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00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:53,300
they'll have to think about the
structure of the question first.

397
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,600
So I would say powerful,
absolutely.

398
00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,900
I would normally just look at a
question and think what can I

399
00:21:00,900 --> 00:21:04,300
remove at first?
So children can process this

400
00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:07,100
information but they can't tell
you the answer.

401
00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:10,000
And then I would think what,
what are the pieces of

402
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,700
information I can load in now it
might be as simple as covering

403
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,700
one of the numbers or it might
just be.

404
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:19,600
I'm going to hide a piece of
information and then I'll slowly

405
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,100
reveal that or I might ask the
children.

406
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,300
So what information do we need
to be?

407
00:21:23,500 --> 00:21:25,700
Given to answer this question,
what information will be under

408
00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:29,700
this box and I had the luxury of
being able to think for quite a

409
00:21:29,708 --> 00:21:33,200
while about one question and
thinking well how is it that

410
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,400
this could be revealed?
So I think like an example would

411
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:42,400
be a from the previous year's
SATs paper, coordinate question,

412
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,700
which we might consider one of
the most difficult ones in the

413
00:21:44,700 --> 00:21:46,200
paper.
And we can look at the

414
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,000
information that's given and
then we can start thinking,

415
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,300
well, well what what, what do we
already know?

416
00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:56,000
And maybe we can, we can work
some kind of an estimate from

417
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,400
the information that's given.
What other information will we

418
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,500
need?
And then look at how that

419
00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:03,800
information can kind of be
slowly built back in that it's

420
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,200
fascinating because it's In
that, you know as you know as

421
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,600
mass leads in school, we are
constantly thinking of ways of

422
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,900
trying to help our staff, like
like you're saying they're your,

423
00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:15,100
you say you're privileged to
have that time to kind of dive

424
00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:18,300
deeply into maths.
And one of our biggest goals as

425
00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:21,600
leaders in school, is to try and
allow staff to make that

426
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,400
professional development to have
these amazing resources to have

427
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,500
these brilliant ideas without
being incumbent on them to spend

428
00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:29,500
hours and hours doing so.
So it's one of our biggest

429
00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:33,500
challenges and that's where your
kind of resources really do.

430
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:35,200
Have such a powerful impact on
staff.

431
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,700
Because it's so clearly broken
down.

432
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,300
Anyone can follow it.
And the way you explain things

433
00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:43,300
is really powerful, and I think
it gives it gives teachers that

434
00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:46,500
ability to actually feel like,
they're properly teaching

435
00:22:46,500 --> 00:22:48,400
problem-solving, not just
teaching maths, not just

436
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,600
teaching procedures, which I
think we fall into a lot, but to

437
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,100
feel as a teacher that you're
teaching problem-solving, is

438
00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:57,300
kind of our goal because I'm
completely on the same page as

439
00:22:57,308 --> 00:22:59,400
your garage.
When you say what's the point of

440
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:00,100
teaching?
Maths?

441
00:23:00,100 --> 00:23:03,000
Well well we want functioning
adults in our society, you can

442
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,300
approach problems and solve them
by using these mechanisms.

443
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,200
Isms that we call Matt.
I mean it's just it's brilliant

444
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,100
just here talking about it.
It's awesome.

445
00:23:11,300 --> 00:23:14,600
Something I did want to ask you
about though in terms of kind of

446
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,100
link to our role as misleads.
I know Hayden and I are

447
00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:19,600
constantly thinking of ways of
how to help our colleagues.

448
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,500
Basically, you work with a lot
of schools like you said, and

449
00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:26,500
you provide training to a lot of
people just wondering, really

450
00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:30,200
how you find that and in terms
of D, do you find a lot of

451
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,500
pushback sometimes to changing
the ways?

452
00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:35,700
We teach maths.
I know maybe with Who kind of

453
00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:38,500
set in their ways before this
idea of Mastery came in, you

454
00:23:38,508 --> 00:23:42,500
know, setting and having task a
task, beat RC and starting on

455
00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:44,700
certain points.
It's kind of changed a lot.

456
00:23:44,700 --> 00:23:47,200
It feels like and Hayden and I
kind of trained to be Math

457
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,100
teachers as that change was
happening.

458
00:23:49,100 --> 00:23:51,100
So we don't know any different.
Do you find?

459
00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:53,700
There's a pushback of many
teachers or do you find?

460
00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:56,800
They're just kind of there to
take in as much as possible and

461
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,400
want to change and want to
improve.

462
00:23:58,400 --> 00:23:59,800
How do you find that as a
trainer?

463
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,800
Yeah, I mean, I have to say that
I've been over the course of all

464
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,200
the time of all the work that
I've done.

465
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:10,400
One with teachers, I've just
been blown away by by teachers

466
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,200
and their capacity to want to
support and help children.

467
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,500
And and I, you know, I've just
got an overwhelmingly positive

468
00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:19,600
experience.
The thing that I would say

469
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,100
though and I experienced this
myself teachings, massively,

470
00:24:23,500 --> 00:24:26,800
it's just that the time we
talked about well-being, the

471
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,500
time pressures that were under
our time is so precious.

472
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:38,300
And There is and also, almost at
the mental energy that you have

473
00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:42,700
is, the job is so demanding.
And and I think the issue is,

474
00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:47,600
when, when you have to, it is
cognitively heavy to have to

475
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,700
deviate from the resources that
you have what you kind of

476
00:24:50,708 --> 00:24:52,600
currently do.
And obviously, there's only so

477
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,500
many different Avenues you can
explore at any one time.

478
00:24:56,900 --> 00:25:00,000
And so I do think it is, let's
say from the perspective of

479
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,300
maths leader, it is thinking
about when is it Right.

480
00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:07,200
And which as I say buttons, is
it right to press which things

481
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,000
is it right to explore and some
thought about the process of

482
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,800
that so I might start the ball
rolling for schools in terms of

483
00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:19,100
suggesting let's say looking at
the way to deconstruct a

484
00:25:19,100 --> 00:25:22,900
question and then the thing that
I always encourage schools to

485
00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:25,600
think about it is what that
process might look like.

486
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,500
So initially it might be an
individual or a couple of

487
00:25:29,500 --> 00:25:33,300
teachers explain what would this
look like in my in my class and

488
00:25:33,300 --> 00:25:36,800
I know Doing like a little trial
and then thinking we might build

489
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,300
a little bank and being
considerate as to what's the

490
00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:45,700
right time to address this with
the whole staff, given the whole

491
00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:49,500
they kind of bigger picture
because I think it is.

492
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:56,900
And I think the teachers Express
the this is something that they

493
00:25:56,900 --> 00:25:59,000
have a desire van, it's
something they see the benefit

494
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,100
in and, and teachers wanted to
be able to focus the teaching

495
00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:07,300
around the Problem solving, but
its limitations are really

496
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,800
understandable as well.
I think to some extent you're

497
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,400
really hitting home with me
personally because I know, I

498
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,600
know exactly what you mean, as
someone, who is really, really

499
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,100
passionate about teaching maths.
I'm having mixed emotions always

500
00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:24,100
for this conversation because
I'm starting to reflect on, you

501
00:26:24,100 --> 00:26:26,700
know, my my job right now and
I'm like, do you know, do you

502
00:26:26,708 --> 00:26:27,900
know what?
There are certain things that

503
00:26:27,900 --> 00:26:29,300
we've talked about.
I feel like I've not done that

504
00:26:29,300 --> 00:26:31,700
in a while.
I guess I used to be like the

505
00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:33,700
most passionate person about
doing this and I've got done A

506
00:26:33,700 --> 00:26:35,000
while.
Why is that?

507
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,400
And you just think?
Yeah.

508
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,300
Is it the pressures of the
teaching is it?

509
00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:40,700
Because after you get
passionate, but you're

510
00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:42,700
passionate about something for a
while and then suddenly, I yeah

511
00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:44,700
you got this massive English
skin to come in now.

512
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,000
Actually, we've got a rework
this curriculum in history, so

513
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,500
you're going to work on that now
for a bit and suddenly after six

514
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:52,500
more things, you know, you find
yourself as a year.

515
00:26:52,500 --> 00:26:55,400
Six teacher in particular, I
find myself falling into that

516
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,800
trap of.
Yeah.

517
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,400
But these kids got a pass that
test and like Dylan said earlier

518
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,400
and this really hit home because
I hate it, I hate it.

519
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,400
I do this but it definitely
happens.

520
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,500
It's that whole, hang on.
How am I going to?

521
00:27:08,500 --> 00:27:10,500
Am I going to maximize these
chart these children's marks

522
00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:13,700
because I've got one month left
until the SATs now, is it a

523
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:18,000
these rich maths lessons of
problem-solving that make, that

524
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,700
might not get them quick marks
in this test or is it?

525
00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:23,200
Or let's just do some
arithmetic, because actually get

526
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,000
some there.
And I hate to say it.

527
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,300
But I know people will be
nodding there.

528
00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:30,300
Listening is quite often the one
that gets you better stats

529
00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:32,400
results.
And I hate that I really don't

530
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,000
like the fact that Even I'm
falling into that trap as

531
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,000
someone who's really, really
passionate about this subject,

532
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,900
which I'm finding quite hard.
And let me say that I would be

533
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,100
I'd be exactly in that same
boat.

534
00:27:45,100 --> 00:27:50,600
So I've taken, I think, I think
it's 9 Co has been might be 10

535
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:56,500
through science and like the
thing I would say is to and we

536
00:27:56,500 --> 00:27:59,500
all, you know, we're all under
that pressure and there are, you

537
00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:01,700
know, to some extent, there are
certain benefits and children,

538
00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:04,200
derived from having that real
For Stephen.

539
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,500
And and it's certainly true that
if you want to improve and I

540
00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:11,800
also been in that situation many
times, you know, where you want

541
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,800
to improve children's attainment
and you've got a month, then the

542
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,400
correct thing to do is to focus
on the developing, the kind of

543
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:24,300
content knowledge.
And that is, you could say

544
00:28:24,300 --> 00:28:26,700
that's appropriate at that time
and, you know, we shouldn't have

545
00:28:26,708 --> 00:28:29,200
this specific focus on the
living up to the SATs.

546
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,800
And I think them having that
experience of dealing with

547
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,700
something that's, you know, they
may see Being pressurized it in

548
00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:37,500
the course of their life, you
know, might not be such a bad

549
00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:39,700
thing that they, that they have
that experience.

550
00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:44,300
They come through that.
I think the issue is, if that's

551
00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:47,000
their experience for six or
seven years.

552
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,600
And I think there's a time where
we want to think, right?

553
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,100
We want to really build
children's capacity, as for

554
00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:56,800
example, as problem solvers.
And we want to build a learning

555
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,300
behavior.
And then they'll be a point at,

556
00:28:59,300 --> 00:29:02,000
which, which is from need to
nail the content knowledge.

557
00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:05,500
The, I mean, the other, the
other thing just to kind of

558
00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:09,800
touch on that as well, is I
think it comes to the importance

559
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:14,500
of thinking of working through
things as a whole school as a

560
00:29:14,508 --> 00:29:18,200
staff so that individual child
has a care and experience.

561
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,800
And thinking, if it's for
example, looking at

562
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:26,200
deconstructing word questions,
if we introduce a variation of

563
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,200
like the same approach when the
children are in year one, and

564
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,200
then you too, and it develops in
year 3, but we have the same

565
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:34,800
thing.
Um, so one of the things I talk

566
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,600
about is covering the
information that a blue box and

567
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,500
the question with a red box
often if I'm, if I'm doing that

568
00:29:40,500 --> 00:29:43,500
when I'm looking at a question
and so children, can it get to

569
00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:47,000
see that if there's they might
see a question and there's

570
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:48,800
information is covered in a blue
box.

571
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,400
Now, if they've done that in
year 3 in India, for and in year

572
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,200
five, when you're in year, six,
it's that's almost an embedded

573
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,400
behavior, and it's not as
difficult for you to implement

574
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,500
Now, it might be that if they
haven't done that in year three

575
00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:09,500
and year four and you are five,
he's probably not in your

576
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:13,200
interest to do that.
Yeah, well, yeah, being specific

577
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,900
about well, these are the things
that, as a, when I say, as a

578
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:18,900
staff that we work on, this is
how they'll be.

579
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:22,100
Some obviously, some individual
differences between teachers.

580
00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:27,000
But thinking if we do this
together, the individual child

581
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,200
will have a coherent experience
and that would be my

582
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,700
encouragement to schools, and
it's both thinking this.

583
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,800
Is what we'll focus on and also
causes thinking well this is

584
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,800
what will not focus on.
I think I can think of the

585
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,000
ultimate example of hated I
think I think of the safety of

586
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,400
the night, I think of the exact
maybe are you thinking about

587
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,100
modeling?
Yes, exactly.

588
00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:47,700
The same exactly the same for me
and I know Dillards, there's

589
00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:49,400
like a see, you itching to go as
well, but you to?

590
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,700
Yeah, we're also Monica.
I know what I'm thinking.

591
00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:54,000
I thinking trying to teach
children while model who've

592
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,100
never done it, but yeah, I've
got a kind of, kind of funny

593
00:30:56,100 --> 00:30:57,800
story, actually, for you care
about that.

594
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,200
But bar modeling, I think is the
ultimate example of When it's

595
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,100
embedded over years, it could be
a really, really effective tool

596
00:31:06,300 --> 00:31:08,300
in terms of visualization, of
problems.

597
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,000
But when it's one of those
things that is just, you know,

598
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,600
you're in es6 and the children
have never seen it before and

599
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,600
you try to tackle a year six
level problem and you say, come

600
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,700
on guys, this bar model at.
So let's visualize this.

601
00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:23,100
This problem from my experience
of doing this, in many, many

602
00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:26,100
cohorts.
They almost never understand it.

603
00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:29,200
They and they don't like using
it and it's just nonsense to

604
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,700
them because it's, like you
said, if you're introducing the

605
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,300
The red and the blue boxes
really late in the game.

606
00:31:35,300 --> 00:31:38,200
It might not be in your best
interest and and just a very

607
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,200
quick funny story for you when I
was going through the interview

608
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,200
process to get my first teaching
job, it was like the buzz thing

609
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,300
around then is about 78 years
ago and I went to a school and I

610
00:31:50,308 --> 00:31:53,700
got an interview and I thought
I'm going to really wow this

611
00:31:53,700 --> 00:31:56,500
school.
I'm going to impress them with

612
00:31:56,500 --> 00:32:01,900
my mass knowledge and I went
into this year, five class and I

613
00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:05,300
had a 20-minute slot to teach
this maths lesson so I decided

614
00:32:05,300 --> 00:32:08,600
to do some problem solving with
bar modeling and it was the most

615
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,900
disastrous lesson I've ever
taught in my career.

616
00:32:11,300 --> 00:32:13,200
And obviously, I didn't get the
job, but it was, it was

617
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,400
hilarious, you know, because
they had not a clue, what I was

618
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,300
talking about and they could not
process, you know what I was

619
00:32:20,300 --> 00:32:23,700
trying to teach them in a
20-minute lesson, so I learned

620
00:32:23,700 --> 00:32:26,900
the hard way that so, basically
just added another cognitive

621
00:32:26,900 --> 00:32:29,100
load this, you just wait, I
don't know how to answer this

622
00:32:29,100 --> 00:32:31,300
question and I don't know what
your business as an adult for

623
00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:32,900
me.
I didn't have the cognitive load

624
00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:34,900
of solving the problem because
it was easy for me, but the

625
00:32:34,900 --> 00:32:37,200
problem was already hard for
them and I've just chucked in

626
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,200
this other really hard concept.
So yeah, that's my story.

627
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,100
Let me just give you, I can't
help but give you a little

628
00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:47,700
anecdote on that.
So when we were trying to

629
00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:51,500
appoint a year for teacher and
we had lots of teachers coming

630
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:55,800
in to teach 20 minute lesson and
there were the theme was, it has

631
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,400
to be based on their topic which
is World War Two.

632
00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:03,400
And so it was with two classes.
All these Only interviewees were

633
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,800
teaching these two classes and I
would say that 80% of them had

634
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,000
an air raid siren, going and got
the children going under the

635
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,200
tables, and then they'd gotten
to do something.

636
00:33:14,700 --> 00:33:17,800
Now, the children were
absolutely rocking for about the

637
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,500
first material lessons and then
after there, had to go a cable,

638
00:33:22,500 --> 00:33:25,400
three or four times this air
raid siren went off.

639
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:31,600
No one was shocked, and they
were like looking at another.

640
00:33:32,500 --> 00:33:35,500
The teachers here with first
weather fortunate ones, but it

641
00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:37,500
was.
So it was really, it was really

642
00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:40,200
hard watching this you know,
prepared this lesson thought

643
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,000
this is going to really hit the
yeah, this is gonna wow them and

644
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,600
they're like, oh boring already
been bombed.

645
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,000
Four times this morning.
Yeah.

646
00:33:50,700 --> 00:33:52,100
And I just wanted to touch on
something.

647
00:33:52,100 --> 00:33:54,300
Gareth because it's something
you've mentioned before as well.

648
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:55,800
And its really interesting to
us.

649
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,900
And I don't want to jump the gun
and presume exactly what this is

650
00:33:57,908 --> 00:34:00,100
about.
But that you talk about the

651
00:34:00,100 --> 00:34:03,000
emotional ride of Would you mind
a guy from mysen, how?

652
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,900
It's a really unique lesson of,
you know, you can feel Eureka

653
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:07,700
moments.
You can feel frustration that

654
00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:10,800
this kind of, in such a short
amount of time and children

655
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,000
struggle to control their
emotions at the best of times.

656
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:14,600
That's another thing they're
learning to do throughout their

657
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,800
journey through school and you
mentioned this idea of concept

658
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,699
cartoons or or I just love for
you to go into some more detail

659
00:34:20,699 --> 00:34:22,100
about this.
This thing you're working on at

660
00:34:22,100 --> 00:34:24,199
the moment.
Yeah yeah I'm really excited

661
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:28,600
about it and it's when I said
I'm working on it it's really a

662
00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:30,500
thought that's been forming in
my wife.

663
00:34:30,500 --> 00:34:32,900
Mine for a while.
It's just like, the best way to

664
00:34:32,900 --> 00:34:37,900
Manifest this, but the thing
that I like, if I was to say,

665
00:34:38,699 --> 00:34:42,300
the two words that we often use
to describe the emotions

666
00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:45,800
children experience in maths, I
think that they would generally

667
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:51,000
be anxiety and fun.
And the thing that I kind of

668
00:34:51,007 --> 00:34:56,000
come to say, is that actually
very, very rarely think maths, I

669
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:57,700
would best describe as being
fun.

670
00:34:58,500 --> 00:35:01,600
I don't think that's a word that
like, I think, Matt.

671
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,200
Invoke fantastically positive
emotions and it can be really

672
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,200
rich and we can have this kind
of drive towards finding a

673
00:35:10,207 --> 00:35:14,600
solution, and we can feel like
we might feel great excitement,

674
00:35:15,100 --> 00:35:19,500
but the kind of children's
understanding of fun and is

675
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:21,100
probably something a little bit
lighter.

676
00:35:21,700 --> 00:35:25,900
And and also, I think we can
think of the, what we might call

677
00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:27,400
him.
I wouldn't call them the

678
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,600
negative emotions, but the
uncomfortable emotions and

679
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,100
actually children being able to
Discerning between them and

680
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,100
rather than we just label.
Everything is being anxiety and

681
00:35:38,100 --> 00:35:41,100
actually see the value of them.
So so for example, like every

682
00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:45,700
mathematician will need to be
able to deal with frustration

683
00:35:45,700 --> 00:35:49,400
and actually frustration might
be really helpful because it

684
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,500
might drive us towards action
and it might lead us to question

685
00:35:52,500 --> 00:35:56,900
our thoughts.
And and and and looking at well

686
00:35:56,900 --> 00:35:59,300
how do we deal with that
frustration like just

687
00:35:59,500 --> 00:36:02,500
frustration?
Turn into apathy And actually

688
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:07,900
noting that sometimes emotions
will kind of up regulate us and

689
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,900
and but sometimes they'll have
the opposite effect and really

690
00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:16,000
wanting to help children to be
able to recognize some of those

691
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,600
different, some of those, the
different emotions that that it

692
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,300
can mask and bring up and
specifically to be able to do.

693
00:36:23,300 --> 00:36:27,800
So before the experience them is
the number of times that a child

694
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,400
may be in at a particular
emotional state.

695
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,300
That's Unhelpful for them, when
they're engaging in maths.

696
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,100
I find that trying to address
that in that moment.

697
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,300
Isn't that helpful?
Whereas, if I have prepared them

698
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:45,500
for some of the emotions that
they may experience within when

699
00:36:45,500 --> 00:36:48,600
engaging in Mass, they might be
better able to deal with them.

700
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,900
And so, just like one other
example, might be, if a child's

701
00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:57,700
attainment is high, they will
may find it more difficult when

702
00:36:57,700 --> 00:37:02,200
they then encounter Challenge
and they may become more More

703
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,500
defensive than and it's trying
to, I guess, show that like, all

704
00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:10,400
these emotions are totally human
and normal.

705
00:37:10,900 --> 00:37:12,800
And, and it's very
understandable.

706
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,600
We have them, like, we're social
beings.

707
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,300
The fact that we might feel
embarrassment, so,

708
00:37:17,300 --> 00:37:21,600
embarrassments very different in
frustration and lice awful if we

709
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,700
feel embarrassed.
You know, we're wired to come

710
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,600
however, much I say, don't
compare yourself to the person

711
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,500
next year.
I think children need to know,

712
00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:30,000
well, that actually
biologically.

713
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,700
Yeah, it's something that we do.
And it's to feel bad about that.

714
00:37:33,700 --> 00:37:36,900
But just, you know, we need to
be able to look at that thought

715
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:43,700
and recognize that it's just the
thought and trying to find a

716
00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:45,400
way, which is the thing I'm
doing it.

717
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,300
And which is this kind of
thought, I've of concept

718
00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:52,000
cartoons, but trying to find a
way to help children to navigate

719
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,900
their emotions in, as it relates
to mass.

720
00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:59,100
I think, I think it's really
important for them more,

721
00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:01,500
broadly.
But I also think it's a really

722
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,200
But Amendment thing to their
success as a mathematician.

723
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,100
And so yeah.
So it's so similar.

724
00:38:07,100 --> 00:38:10,100
I'm looking into and what I Look
to do, is, maybe create a few

725
00:38:10,100 --> 00:38:13,300
examples of put them out on
social media or even when I get

726
00:38:13,300 --> 00:38:15,500
that.
And then I just I love getting

727
00:38:15,500 --> 00:38:19,200
feedback from people saying I'm
always looking for but suggest

728
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,600
improvements as well.
And like, rather than people

729
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,600
just tell me what they like.
Yeah.

730
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,400
So yeah.
So we're falling into that trap

731
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,800
today which is like amazing.
Yeah well but yeah, you're

732
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,700
right.
Well the things I absolutely

733
00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:33,000
loved.
And still as the work with my,

734
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,800
the school that was up for 12
years is how Challenge

735
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,200
two-hander and like the
headteacher.

736
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,000
Absolutely amazing guy.
Amazing.

737
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,500
Brain really determined really
child centers and I know that

738
00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:49,300
I'm I'm challenged and it's it's
worth its weight in gold.

739
00:38:50,100 --> 00:38:53,300
I really like the idea you got
me thinking when you said about

740
00:38:53,300 --> 00:38:57,300
frustration in maths because it
two things firstly.

741
00:38:57,300 --> 00:38:59,300
Absolutely right.
Because when I see a child get

742
00:38:59,300 --> 00:39:03,000
frustrated, my natural instinct
is to Sold him and I'm thinking,

743
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,800
oh no I'm going to lose them now
we lose them.

744
00:39:06,100 --> 00:39:08,800
Let's just make them feel
better, you know, but actually,

745
00:39:09,100 --> 00:39:11,900
I love this idea of showing
children, okay?

746
00:39:11,900 --> 00:39:12,600
Right.
Frustration.

747
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,400
You're on a pathway and you've
got you stuck a fork in the

748
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,200
road, isn't it?
Almost you news?

749
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,600
You mentioned apathy.
It's like, okay, what other,

750
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,000
what other ways could we go of
this?

751
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:22,900
Maybe, maybe it becomes
determination.

752
00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:26,300
And why does it have to be this
negative root where you get it?

753
00:39:26,300 --> 00:39:29,000
You know, where you're just,
always always the same thing

754
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,500
where you just get may be upset.
And then teachers will make

755
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:32,800
Judgment.
So know that child was gets

756
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:34,000
upset.
If it's too hard, so we won't

757
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,000
give them to hard stuff because
they just got upset and then

758
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:37,500
they don't, then they can't do
the task.

759
00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:39,500
So we always just give me a
little bit easier stuff.

760
00:39:40,100 --> 00:39:44,700
So I really, really like that
idea of exploring the emotional

761
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,600
root of things have just showing
children.

762
00:39:48,900 --> 00:39:51,800
Hey, these are normal, by the
way, I feel like this II feel

763
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:57,400
like this when this happens and
when I deal with it in this way,

764
00:39:57,700 --> 00:40:00,500
this outcome is often the thing.
And when I don't this is the

765
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:02,900
outcome, you know?
And just showing Them before it

766
00:40:02,900 --> 00:40:04,200
happens.
I think that's a really good

767
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:05,700
idea.
I'll be very interested to see

768
00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:07,800
what you kind of create with
that.

769
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,000
Yeah, and I'll tell you that the
biggest, one of the biggest I've

770
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,600
made a little so many mistakes
for, I've learned things I read

771
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,600
about something and think, my
goodness have done that for had

772
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,700
this many years and one of them
and we should he wish I often

773
00:40:20,700 --> 00:40:25,800
refer to in it in this field is
trying to tell children that

774
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,500
mass will be fun today.
Now, we know that when we enter

775
00:40:29,500 --> 00:40:33,400
into a learning apis, owed our
brain In releases epinephrine is

776
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,700
adrenaline for the brain, which
is essentially a stress

777
00:40:35,700 --> 00:40:38,200
chemical.
So learning biologically is

778
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:43,000
uncomfortable.
And at that time, I'm telling

779
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,100
children have fun, mass is going
to be and their physical

780
00:40:46,100 --> 00:40:48,100
experience.
Isn't that?

781
00:40:48,100 --> 00:40:50,500
It is, it is anything other than
that.

782
00:40:50,900 --> 00:40:53,800
And actually, it's kind of
understanding that, you know,

783
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,100
the perseverance in the effort
and the frustration is often the

784
00:40:57,100 --> 00:41:01,500
precursor to the if you like the
place.

785
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,000
The Motions that the, the
pleasant emotions.

786
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:09,700
And so, I like to challenge this
idea of there, being negative

787
00:41:09,700 --> 00:41:13,900
and positive emotions, and also
just the idea as I say, like I

788
00:41:13,908 --> 00:41:16,500
want rather than me trying to
tell the children.

789
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:22,300
Maths is fun and likely to
experience, the, the kind of the

790
00:41:22,700 --> 00:41:26,500
if you like the all of the
breadth of fantastic emotions we

791
00:41:26,500 --> 00:41:28,900
experience when were engaging in
maths.

792
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,200
But I always think that's more
about the task decide.

793
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,100
Then it is about me trying to
convince them that something's

794
00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:37,000
fun because actually also
there's an element to which some

795
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,800
of maths is repetitive and like
I don't think I could convince

796
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,900
child that learning that number
bonds determine the Time.

797
00:41:43,900 --> 00:41:47,700
Saver fact, it's fun because I
don't think it is but it is an

798
00:41:47,700 --> 00:41:51,400
important precursor to something
else which will be rich for

799
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,300
them.
I think a really powerful thing

800
00:41:53,300 --> 00:41:56,100
that we kind of move unpicked
through our conversation here.

801
00:41:56,100 --> 00:41:59,800
Is that there are just so many
different aspects and ways that

802
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:01,400
we have to approach maths.
It's free.

803
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,900
Be a really wholesome experience
and like you said, you need to

804
00:42:03,900 --> 00:42:06,900
have and I love the idea of
looking at it through the lens

805
00:42:06,900 --> 00:42:08,600
of emotion.
Like you've just been saying of

806
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:10,700
this part of mass might well be
boring.

807
00:42:10,700 --> 00:42:12,100
Like you said, learn your times
tables.

808
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:13,900
This Parts can be really
frustrating.

809
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,100
This part is going to be this
emotion that emotion and

810
00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:18,000
equipping.
The children to understand that.

811
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,200
I think we'll put them in such a
better place.

812
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,300
To really attack these things
and do them.

813
00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:25,700
Because, you know, we use time
step rock star in our school.

814
00:42:25,700 --> 00:42:28,500
And the idea is the idea is and
you're absolutely right here.

815
00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:31,000
Will say, oh, it's fun.
You get to make an avatar and

816
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,300
you You can go on and and coins
and it's really fun for a lot of

817
00:42:34,300 --> 00:42:37,000
children, nearly all children.
It's not fun.

818
00:42:37,100 --> 00:42:39,500
You get the odd child who goes
on on their own, you know, does

819
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,400
a million different million
minutes a week of Times Table

820
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,400
Rock Star?
But I think that honest open

821
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,900
discourse of the child does
start with the kind of thing,

822
00:42:46,900 --> 00:42:49,100
you're trying to create here,
which is actually teaching them,

823
00:42:49,100 --> 00:42:51,100
what the emotions are in the
first place because there's

824
00:42:51,100 --> 00:42:53,900
going to be a disconnect
otherwise and I think I'm really

825
00:42:53,900 --> 00:42:56,400
looking forward to seeing what
you come up with because we can

826
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,500
certainly Implement them and see
how they're going on.

827
00:42:58,900 --> 00:43:01,500
It's one of those things where I
feel like I just need to kind of

828
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:06,400
of sit in an empty room for a
couple of weeks and and then

829
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,200
fight come up with some examples
and usually when I've got one or

830
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,900
two and throw them out there and
get some opinions on that and

831
00:43:11,900 --> 00:43:16,000
that's when balls rolling.
But it's definitely a thing that

832
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,300
I think that there is this
ground to take with helping

833
00:43:20,300 --> 00:43:23,800
children to understand and be
able to regulate their emotions.

834
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:24,800
Certainly when they're doing
maths.

835
00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:30,400
So Gareth a long time ago, as I
said, you've you really inspired

836
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:35,900
me as a fresh teacher to really,
just think outside of the box

837
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,300
with mass teaching and it was at
a time, it was 2014-2015.

838
00:43:40,300 --> 00:43:42,400
So it was at that really pivotal
moment.

839
00:43:42,500 --> 00:43:45,000
When we had the new National
curriculum come in and suddenly,

840
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,400
everyone was moving away from
their textbooks, where it was

841
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,500
just kind of, like, Columns of a
b, and c, and you do challenge

842
00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:54,200
by choice or you say great, you
know, you're the most stable.

843
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,200
So you do the Hard column and
you do the Z column and we were

844
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,300
moving away from that and you
massively inspired me with your

845
00:44:00,300 --> 00:44:03,300
resources and with the training
you pain to do things like, hey,

846
00:44:03,300 --> 00:44:07,400
you know, that I still remember
the day, when you said you gave

847
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,600
an example on the screen of
showing hiding some information

848
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,500
and getting the children to
visualize a problem before, they

849
00:44:14,500 --> 00:44:16,600
then tackle the information.
So that mean that was just one

850
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:22,200
of many things if you were to
speak to directly now to so some

851
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,100
new teachers like myself back
then, What would be?

852
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,500
This is gonna be a hard question
for you, but what would it be?

853
00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:33,000
I guess, your advice for a
really passionate fresh teacher

854
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,000
who really wants to nail their
maths teacher and be a better

855
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,600
maths teacher.
What would you say to them?

856
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,300
Okay, there's so many little
things and, and, and the thing I

857
00:44:42,300 --> 00:44:47,300
guess, before I answer that is,
I would say, the people just to

858
00:44:47,300 --> 00:44:53,000
be and patient with themselves
and because I am a kind of

859
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,600
person, you know, I was I'm
really driven and really

860
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,900
passionate and things have gone
wrong for me so often and it and

861
00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:03,900
that's part of the kind of
experimentation with in teaching

862
00:45:03,900 --> 00:45:07,200
as well and children benefit
from you experimenting.

863
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,900
And I think it kind of to that
end I guess that I would say is

864
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,500
that the teacher you are not a
deliverer of a scheme and and

865
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,600
what we want to be able to do is
it's a fantastic to have a

866
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,600
structure and that's really
helpful and to have great

867
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,800
resources and it's thinking
about how do I Where do I take

868
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,300
ownership of that?
And how do I ensure that?

869
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:34,700
What the children are telling me
in their success and I am able

870
00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:38,700
to adapt to them and for that to
take the form of, it might be

871
00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:40,700
within a lesson.
I'm looking for a little checks

872
00:45:40,700 --> 00:45:45,700
for understanding and I would
use the tools of you know,

873
00:45:45,700 --> 00:45:49,300
giving children individual
thinking time looking at a

874
00:45:49,308 --> 00:45:52,300
little questions that I can, I
can give that will that will

875
00:45:52,300 --> 00:45:54,800
check for understanding within a
lesson and look at how I do.

876
00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:58,200
That within a lesson, but also
kind of looking over time and

877
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,400
seeing the characteristics that
children are building and where

878
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,300
is it?
I should place my emphasis.

879
00:46:03,300 --> 00:46:07,000
So when I take the structure
that I work with in, how do I

880
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,900
amend it?
And how do I, how do I make that

881
00:46:10,900 --> 00:46:15,100
make that my own and I guess to
some extent as well just and

882
00:46:15,100 --> 00:46:16,400
they've just a general
encouragement.

883
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,500
I give anyone in any subject is
just to be open with the things

884
00:46:20,500 --> 00:46:23,200
that you're unsure of all
finding difficult and and

885
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,100
finding different opinions and I
remember moving to one of my

886
00:46:27,100 --> 00:46:29,000
favorite examples that I give, I
don't think it had.

887
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,400
It makes my least favorite
example.

888
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,700
Again, was moving to U1 and
finding my partner teacher, just

889
00:46:34,700 --> 00:46:37,200
delivering things much more
effectively than I was.

890
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,200
And I was quite senior in my
career then and actually, I just

891
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:43,900
knew what I needed to do is I
just need to go and have a look

892
00:46:43,900 --> 00:46:47,900
at what it looks like in there
and and I think is to some

893
00:46:47,900 --> 00:46:52,100
extent it's that humility is
well, that is it's really

894
00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:53,800
important.
I think.

895
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,100
Yeah, you nailed That and I
think the, you sort of you said

896
00:46:57,100 --> 00:46:59,400
it mentioned earlier on than you
went into more detail about

897
00:46:59,500 --> 00:47:01,500
you've made mistakes.
You've made plenty of mistakes

898
00:47:01,500 --> 00:47:04,000
yourself and I think it's so
important for people to hear

899
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,900
that because I am definitely a
sucker for the whole.

900
00:47:06,900 --> 00:47:11,200
Like, it's like the example of a
Instagram versus reality and

901
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,200
people always say that, don't
know what you see on Instagram.

902
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,400
Whatever it is, it's not really
reality and I guess it's the

903
00:47:15,408 --> 00:47:17,800
same in teaching, you know, you
might go to some incredible

904
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:19,600
training and speed to some
incredible people.

905
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,600
It doesn't mean they're not
making any mistakes and it's

906
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,600
definitely worth knowing that.
So thank you.

907
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,500
I wish I That early on.
Because I definitely beat myself

908
00:47:27,500 --> 00:47:31,500
up too many times when one 1
lesson wasn't perfect, you know?

909
00:47:31,500 --> 00:47:33,700
And it's like it's fine.
Then after you beat yourself up,

910
00:47:33,700 --> 00:47:36,300
I then came and beat you.
Yeah, cuz I cuz you because you

911
00:47:36,308 --> 00:47:37,500
taught the lesson that I've
ironed.

912
00:47:37,500 --> 00:47:41,600
Yeah, we were planning Partners
when we first started off as

913
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:42,800
well.
So there was there was

914
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:44,500
definitely an idea of
competition here.

915
00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:46,000
Oh yeah.
And we didn't, we didn't let

916
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,300
each other, you know, have that
kind of and looking back.

917
00:47:48,300 --> 00:47:50,100
We should have let us.
Let us let sounds off a little

918
00:47:50,100 --> 00:47:53,700
bit every now and then because
it's important and Gareth, it's

919
00:47:53,700 --> 00:47:57,700
been amazing advice and And you
know, truly truly fantastic.

920
00:47:57,700 --> 00:47:59,700
I know you said, you like being
challenged and not just praised.

921
00:47:59,700 --> 00:48:02,500
But I'm here to praise him
because it's been such a nice

922
00:48:02,500 --> 00:48:05,400
chat and really appreciate you
giving us your time.

923
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,500
And I do think that Hayden
asked.

924
00:48:07,500 --> 00:48:10,200
If you had a story that you
wanted to share of us that we

925
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,300
often, ask anyone who comes on a
podcast, to give us a little

926
00:48:13,300 --> 00:48:14,800
anecdote, from the time in
teaching.

927
00:48:14,900 --> 00:48:17,700
It could be heartwarming.
Finally, just interesting.

928
00:48:18,100 --> 00:48:20,200
Do you have them ready for us?
Yeah, I do.

929
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,000
And this again is something that
I've done I've ever mentioned

930
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:27,700
before but it is When so I'll
goodness if I'm guessing the

931
00:48:27,700 --> 00:48:31,300
Year this is maybe 2012.
Now I'd mention it beginning.

932
00:48:31,500 --> 00:48:33,900
The First Resource at ever
created was called the mass

933
00:48:33,900 --> 00:48:37,900
apprenticeship and they were
challenges that used to take a

934
00:48:37,900 --> 00:48:39,600
group of children.
It's so it's used to give

935
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:41,800
children a little assessment
towards the end of the unit.

936
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:46,200
And if they, some children might
need additional the Judgment had

937
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,700
made the time some children
might benefit from having that

938
00:48:48,700 --> 00:48:53,000
additional time more, direct
teacher time that they can get

939
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,500
supported to go.
Over some of the content and to

940
00:48:56,500 --> 00:48:59,100
address some of the
misconceptions and we had some

941
00:48:59,100 --> 00:49:01,300
children that would go on to
what we call the extension

942
00:49:01,300 --> 00:49:04,600
pathway which were the maths
Apprentice tasks which are

943
00:49:04,607 --> 00:49:07,300
getting the first tasks that I
ever published.

944
00:49:07,300 --> 00:49:14,500
And so it might be what one task
was around, ordering, a stock

945
00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:18,900
rotation system for a fruit
stall and there was another one,

946
00:49:18,900 --> 00:49:24,400
in, racking my brains now, which
was looking at some data from a

947
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,700
football.
Season and get providing some

948
00:49:26,700 --> 00:49:28,800
suggestions to manage.
This is all kinds of different

949
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,000
tasks that there was one, which
was probably one of my

950
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:37,300
favorites, which was designing
and writing security codes for

951
00:49:37,300 --> 00:49:40,000
the MI5.
So the children would have this

952
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,500
this bespoke prompt and what
they would then do is they would

953
00:49:44,500 --> 00:49:48,000
have to meet someone and
communicate their thinking to

954
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,000
that person.
So, for example, I would go out

955
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,000
the room normally or invite
someone else and I would come

956
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:58,200
back in dressed up As the
stallholder guys.

957
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,300
And then the, but the children
quite quickly fall into the

958
00:50:02,300 --> 00:50:05,700
narrative and they would have to
communicate what they're

959
00:50:05,700 --> 00:50:09,200
suggesting.
So I've been forgetting the name

960
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:13,700
of the person from from a theme
park manager.

961
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,100
He was looking for a suggestion
and then I'll come in as Alex.

962
00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:19,700
The stallholder, who was a bit?
Didn't really understand his

963
00:50:19,700 --> 00:50:23,200
figures very well needed a bit
of support, but then my favorite

964
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,900
one and this was well before
they kind of He's a zoom with

965
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:33,000
coming in at for the MI5.
Task was Skyping the class

966
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:38,600
wearing a stage from the
planning like the PPA room and

967
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:43,000
the children having to give
explaining that MI5 the security

968
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,600
codes which was like they had to
come up with something that we

969
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:51,100
generate a four digit code using
personal information and the

970
00:50:51,100 --> 00:50:52,800
date.
So they would have to think of a

971
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:57,900
way of doing and it always have
to be 8 a 4 digit number and but

972
00:50:57,900 --> 00:51:00,700
the way they would always
explain, as I say we would once

973
00:51:00,700 --> 00:51:04,000
a year we would Skyping.
And then what they would always

974
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,400
do is they would always try and
run after the lesson to get the

975
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,800
PPA room.
But again that was probably one

976
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,800
of it, one of us wheat.
That is that that sorry that is

977
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:21,100
the, you know, the epitome of me
of to me of loving teaching and

978
00:51:21,100 --> 00:51:24,800
making those unbelievable
experiences for the kids because

979
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,400
Just going above and beyond and
those and it wouldn't have taken

980
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,600
much with it for you to put some
shades on and go in the other

981
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,000
room, but those small choices,
we can make you that those

982
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:34,500
children will remember that the
whole time.

983
00:51:34,500 --> 00:51:36,000
They'll always remember that.
That's, that's amazing.

984
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,400
But you said to me, and what
would you think of when you

985
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,100
think of English in my mind went
blank and one little, it was

986
00:51:42,100 --> 00:51:44,800
always like a little jokes, the
kids knew and I was really

987
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,100
passionate about maths.
And so when it was sad as that,

988
00:51:48,100 --> 00:51:50,300
you know, they would do the
reading first and then they

989
00:51:50,300 --> 00:51:53,400
would do this bag.
So we just come in like dressed

990
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,200
normally and then All our team
we used to get dressed up for

991
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:02,300
mass.
That means that's really funny.

992
00:52:06,300 --> 00:52:08,400
That might have worked less well
if English wasn't first.

993
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:09,200
Yeah.
Okay.

994
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,200
Panicking when they came.
It's fine.

995
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:14,600
It's just English guys.
No problem.

996
00:52:15,900 --> 00:52:18,500
That's so funny.
I love that Gareth.

997
00:52:18,500 --> 00:52:21,100
It's been an absolute pleasure.
I think we're going to round it

998
00:52:21,100 --> 00:52:23,700
off there.
I can't believe how useful this

999
00:52:23,700 --> 00:52:26,100
has been you know.
We're like we're misleads.

1000
00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:28,700
Now, we've been teaching for
upwards of ten years and we

1001
00:52:28,700 --> 00:52:30,600
still got so much out of that
chat.

1002
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,800
And I think the one thing we
want from this is to be able to

1003
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,500
share with people who are less
experienced potentially or even

1004
00:52:36,500 --> 00:52:39,100
the same experienced and just
realize that it's just a

1005
00:52:39,107 --> 00:52:41,700
constant Learning Journey.
And there's always something to

1006
00:52:42,100 --> 00:52:45,300
think about and to develop on
and you've shown that perfectly.

1007
00:52:45,300 --> 00:52:47,400
So huge.
Thank you for coming on go.

1008
00:52:47,500 --> 00:52:48,900
Well thanks.
I have really enjoyed it.

1009
00:52:48,900 --> 00:52:50,900
So anytime, you know,
deliberately if you'll ever

1010
00:52:50,900 --> 00:52:52,700
having back at a lot to come
with, thanks.

1011
00:52:56,000 --> 00:53:00,600
Wow, Dylan was an amazing chat.
How do you feel after that?

1012
00:53:01,900 --> 00:53:03,700
It's just it's one of those
moments isn't it?

1013
00:53:03,700 --> 00:53:05,400
You know, we spoke to Sophie
recently.

1014
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,300
I finished that chat and I was
just so, you know, enthused

1015
00:53:08,300 --> 00:53:11,000
again and I just got the same
feeling after talking to Gareth

1016
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,200
and I think it's such a positive
thing to have because we got a

1017
00:53:15,207 --> 00:53:16,400
lot of comments that we hate
them.

1018
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:18,300
Start this podcast there.
Oh gosh.

1019
00:53:18,300 --> 00:53:21,400
Teaching a or, you know, and we
were really worried about that

1020
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,900
we were given off that kind of
Aura of the negative things, but

1021
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,600
you know that it's so true.
What you said it just it.

1022
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:31,500
Excites you to listen to these
people who are complete.

1023
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,200
Experts in what they do.
And you know, it's no secret

1024
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,000
that we love maths and listening
to him.

1025
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,000
Talk about it.
And I think what was really

1026
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:39,500
reassuring was two things for
me.

1027
00:53:39,500 --> 00:53:41,300
Maybe you can, you can expand on
these.

1028
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,400
Number one was that he was just
as open with, he gets things

1029
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,100
wrong constantly because there
can be this or around these kind

1030
00:53:47,100 --> 00:53:49,600
of personalities online that
they're just these amazing

1031
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:51,000
people who get it right all the
time.

1032
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:52,900
That's really, really put a
really, really positive.

1033
00:53:52,900 --> 00:53:54,500
I think a message to have for
everyone positive.

1034
00:53:54,500 --> 00:53:56,900
All other thing was positive
aura.

1035
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:01,500
The second reveal to my second
thing.

1036
00:54:01,700 --> 00:54:06,200
Was the fact that he kind of was
on the same page as us.

1037
00:54:06,500 --> 00:54:09,200
I found that really positive as
well and kind of, you know,

1038
00:54:09,700 --> 00:54:12,300
giving us that kind of thumbs up
to say, no, you are doing the

1039
00:54:12,308 --> 00:54:14,200
right thing.
You do think of it this way and

1040
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:16,400
you do know what you're doing
and I got that from that as

1041
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:18,900
well.
I personally felt that Beyond

1042
00:54:18,900 --> 00:54:24,600
his Aura, we actually gave, we
actually in all seriousness, we

1043
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,700
gained basically like a private
CPD session because he was so

1044
00:54:28,700 --> 00:54:33,000
full of knowledge and made Made
me think so much about my own

1045
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,100
practice by the end of it.
I was like in my own head kind

1046
00:54:36,100 --> 00:54:38,100
of like I am at the end of a CPD
session.

1047
00:54:38,500 --> 00:54:39,800
Professional development
session.

1048
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:43,500
I know I do it all the time.
Just say random jogging pedagogy

1049
00:54:43,500 --> 00:54:44,800
pedagogy.
Yeah, my pedagogy.

1050
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:46,900
I'm on dirt.
That's not decile jargon.

1051
00:54:46,900 --> 00:54:49,200
That's just me being a fool.
Go back and listen to our

1052
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,400
previous episodes if you don't
know, I'm talking about, but

1053
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:56,700
yeah, Gareth was incredible at
just unpicking the questions we

1054
00:54:56,700 --> 00:55:00,100
had and then just delivering
some amazing like insights based

1055
00:55:00,100 --> 00:55:03,000
on his experience and his Career
obviously, in the, in the

1056
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:04,600
teaching world.
So very, very grateful to have

1057
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,400
that conversation and it's
definitely definitely going to

1058
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:11,100
impact the way I teach in my
next lessons, this term

1059
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:13,200
hopefully even next year again
because there are so many

1060
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:18,200
exciting things that he reminded
me of of from you know, early on

1061
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,400
in my career.
When I just had more time, maybe

1062
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:25,800
I guess to devote to certain
things and I just, I miss doing

1063
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,900
them.
I think one thing he said that

1064
00:55:28,900 --> 00:55:31,900
I've definitely picked up on and
it's on that theme of like it's

1065
00:55:31,900 --> 00:55:34,600
okay to get things wrong but
it's even more specific and it

1066
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,100
was that idea of individual
schools were on different

1067
00:55:37,100 --> 00:55:39,900
Journeys in their, in their kind
of progress on different

1068
00:55:39,900 --> 00:55:43,300
curriculums and the idea of you
know, he's very fortunate to be

1069
00:55:43,300 --> 00:55:46,300
able to just focus on maths.
I think teachers beat themselves

1070
00:55:46,300 --> 00:55:47,800
up a lot.
I know I certainly do when I

1071
00:55:47,808 --> 00:55:51,000
think you know, if I did just
spend two more hours doing this

1072
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:52,700
thing.
Then the this sequence of

1073
00:55:52,707 --> 00:55:56,200
lessons may have been much more
enjoyable or way more engaging

1074
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,200
but we just Just don't have that
time because we're being pulled

1075
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,300
in five different directions and
I think that idea that he had

1076
00:56:02,308 --> 00:56:05,500
his very clear and I think it's
really easy for people like

1077
00:56:05,500 --> 00:56:08,100
Gareth people like ours.
Even as mathletes in school to

1078
00:56:08,100 --> 00:56:11,100
have a really narrow focus on
our own subject and just think,

1079
00:56:11,100 --> 00:56:14,600
okay, I've had some CPD on this.
I think this is going to be

1080
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,700
transformative for the school,
have all the best of intentions

1081
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,700
but then end up actually
inflicting, huge levels of

1082
00:56:20,700 --> 00:56:24,300
workload stress and it being a
negative outcome and people

1083
00:56:24,300 --> 00:56:26,700
don't feel as enthused as you.
And you think well why not and

1084
00:56:26,900 --> 00:56:29,200
Obey.
So answer is, it's just down to

1085
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,300
time, they're probably very,
very, very up for having this

1086
00:56:32,300 --> 00:56:35,300
professional development, but
they just physically can't

1087
00:56:35,300 --> 00:56:36,100
manage it.
You're right.

1088
00:56:36,100 --> 00:56:38,200
We all have our own passions and
that what, you know, that was

1089
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,600
our passion and that's his
passion, he can put that time

1090
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:42,200
in.
So I think the kind of summary

1091
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,200
of his message.
Is if you're passionate about a

1092
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:49,300
subject, just quit your job and
then subjects all the time.

1093
00:56:49,300 --> 00:56:51,700
I hope Gareth, I have, you know,
how many joking?

1094
00:56:51,700 --> 00:56:55,300
Of course, I've got to tell you
do something.

1095
00:56:55,300 --> 00:56:56,700
Maybe we could talk about now
quickly.

1096
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:58,900
It's just a thought on that
because I thought at the time

1097
00:56:59,300 --> 00:57:02,000
and it's something that's been
thrown about in previous schools

1098
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,000
that I've worked in, as a
genuine suggestion.

1099
00:57:04,100 --> 00:57:07,800
As to the way of splitting up,
your staff, is you find with

1100
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:11,100
teachers, a lot of the time just
naturally, they fall on one side

1101
00:57:11,100 --> 00:57:14,500
of the, of the wall Bay, they're
either going to be preferring

1102
00:57:14,500 --> 00:57:16,600
teaching maths or praying
teaching English and that could

1103
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,900
be preference in terms of
enjoyment or it could be

1104
00:57:18,900 --> 00:57:20,500
preference in terms of how good
they feel.

1105
00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:23,300
They are at delivering that
curriculum and the idea is

1106
00:57:23,300 --> 00:57:26,100
trying about never went to any
further and wonder if any

1107
00:57:26,100 --> 00:57:29,300
schools anyone Thing has tried
this before was the idea of

1108
00:57:29,300 --> 00:57:32,500
splitting staff not just by year
group and teaching math and

1109
00:57:32,500 --> 00:57:36,100
English in the morning, but
splitting staff through subject

1110
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:40,300
and you have some teachers who
may be lower school, have maths

1111
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:43,000
first session and an upper
school have mass second session

1112
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,100
and you'd get one teacher who
would teach a math lesson, lot

1113
00:57:45,100 --> 00:57:48,400
of school and after break t to
math lessons in their in their

1114
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,300
upper school and then you'd also
have like almost like a ped

1115
00:57:51,300 --> 00:57:54,800
English teacher who had take the
class at the opposite times for

1116
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:56,300
English.
If they were more specialized in

1117
00:57:56,300 --> 00:57:59,400
English or preferred English and
you know as someone who

1118
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:02,400
naturally gravitates towards
maths, my ears pricked up at

1119
00:58:02,408 --> 00:58:05,000
that idea.
And you think that maybe I'd be

1120
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,700
on the side of doing that but I
tell you what I'm interested to

1121
00:58:07,707 --> 00:58:11,500
see what you think.
I don't think that that would

1122
00:58:11,500 --> 00:58:15,000
necessarily be automatically
beneficial for the children or

1123
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,400
for the staff to do that
constantly throughout.

1124
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:20,300
I don't know if it's really hard
when I think it depends on your

1125
00:58:20,300 --> 00:58:23,500
level of passion because I don't
think many not many people are

1126
00:58:23,500 --> 00:58:26,300
as passionate by know that we're
on the extreme end of like

1127
00:58:26,300 --> 00:58:27,200
passion.
Laughs.

1128
00:58:27,500 --> 00:58:30,100
And some people might just
prefer it a little bit more, but

1129
00:58:30,100 --> 00:58:32,100
two things I actually did that
for a while.

1130
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:34,700
I don't know if you remember, it
was a long time ago but it was

1131
00:58:34,707 --> 00:58:37,600
only for a term or two.
But I did actually do that where

1132
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:41,300
I taught maths further, the, in
the place before the time before

1133
00:58:41,300 --> 00:58:43,200
break.
And then I went to a different

1134
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:46,800
year group and I taught maths
again in after break time, and I

1135
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,100
thoroughly enjoyed it personally
like doing that.

1136
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,000
And I also know someone who did
it for a year, a different

1137
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:55,100
school.
They went and only taught Maths

1138
00:58:55,100 --> 00:58:57,900
for a whole year.
And they said they absolutely

1139
00:58:57,900 --> 00:59:01,000
loved it, but they also said,
they felt really these Guild

1140
00:59:01,300 --> 00:59:04,200
coming back to a normal normal
environment and teaching at the

1141
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:06,200
other subjects, and in the long
term, it wasn't remotely

1142
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:10,000
beneficial but it was an
enjoyable time while it lasted.

1143
00:59:10,100 --> 00:59:15,200
So, you know, pros and cons.
I guess, I suppose, that's the

1144
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:16,800
point.
I guess that, if you are going

1145
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,400
to continue being a classroom
teacher over you, if you don't

1146
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:22,500
necessarily have the ability to
stop what you're doing and put

1147
00:59:22,500 --> 00:59:25,500
all your time to mass because
someone has driven as Gareth is

1148
00:59:25,500 --> 00:59:29,000
so successful, he's able Do that
then there is that risk isn't

1149
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,500
there actually, you know, well,
you know it, what is the reason

1150
00:59:31,500 --> 00:59:32,800
that you're less passionate
about English?

1151
00:59:32,900 --> 00:59:35,100
I actually thoroughly enjoy
teaching English as well.

1152
00:59:35,100 --> 00:59:37,100
I'm just so passionate about
maths at this kind of a

1153
00:59:37,107 --> 00:59:39,600
disparity there.
Some might say, but I still love

1154
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:41,600
teaching English and there's a
lot I get out of teaching

1155
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:45,800
English, but if I was to stop
doing that completely, I'm not

1156
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,100
sure that I'd be a better
teacher for it and I'm going to

1157
00:59:48,100 --> 00:59:50,200
continue being a teacher.
Now, if I was to become a

1158
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,700
specialist and just focus on
math resources, then maybe that

1159
00:59:52,700 --> 00:59:56,800
doesn't matter as much, but I
think potentially that that It

1160
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,000
wouldn't be a positive for
someone who especially let's say

1161
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,500
I move school at some point and
they don't offer that.

1162
01:00:02,500 --> 01:00:05,500
Yeah, it'll be really stuck in a
in a place there of Old English

1163
01:00:05,500 --> 01:00:07,200
I've not done this for five
years, you know.

1164
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:09,600
Well we see this in peed on me
all the time.

1165
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,900
It's quite a quite a common
thing that schools will wiring

1166
01:00:12,900 --> 01:00:15,300
like PE coordinators and coaches
and teams and things.

1167
01:00:15,300 --> 01:00:18,400
So to run their PE curriculum.
Essentially and then teachers of

1168
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:21,400
those schools go and get another
job Five, Ten Years Later where

1169
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,800
they have to teach PE twice a
week and they have absolutely no

1170
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:27,100
idea how and there's always this
dialogue, isn't there of We

1171
01:00:27,100 --> 01:00:28,700
should be really, really
careful.

1172
01:00:28,700 --> 01:00:33,000
Not to descale ourselves for a,
like, a temporary convenience,

1173
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:35,800
or is just a convenience at the
school because you just don't

1174
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,400
know what's going to be required
of you later on.

1175
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:40,500
And if that is a general
requirement, that, you teach,

1176
01:00:40,500 --> 01:00:43,000
but if that's like part of the
job, which it is teaching

1177
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:45,900
English, teaching PE is
generally considered part of the

1178
01:00:45,900 --> 01:00:49,500
job than you probably should be
careful to take cot.

1179
01:00:49,500 --> 01:00:51,200
Like I really bespoke role at
the school.

1180
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,900
You work in where you don't
teach particular subjects just

1181
01:00:54,900 --> 01:00:56,600
in case, you know, but it was in
different.

1182
01:00:56,700 --> 01:00:59,200
Positions, you might be
confident that that's that's all

1183
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:00,300
you're going to do till you
retire.

1184
01:01:00,300 --> 01:01:03,000
There's no, there's no risk
there, but like you said, if

1185
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,500
you're going to if you just, you
just plan on being a teacher,

1186
01:01:05,500 --> 01:01:08,600
you never know if you're
descaling yourself and like

1187
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:10,400
Gareth touched on.
Actually, without those

1188
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:13,000
opportunities for him to just
focus on maths, he would not

1189
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:16,000
have nearly enough time to dive
into those kind of deep-rooted

1190
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:19,100
problem solving and and think
about ways to help teachers on

1191
01:01:19,100 --> 01:01:22,300
the macro level.
So, it is double edged sword.

1192
01:01:22,300 --> 01:01:23,300
I don't think there's an answer
here.

1193
01:01:23,300 --> 01:01:24,900
I think you've got to do what's
right for you.

1194
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,200
And, you know, It's going to be
one of our class discussions

1195
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:29,400
here.
We don't really fall on one

1196
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:31,800
side.
We just say, well there's it,

1197
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:35,200
yeah, it's very interesting.
Yeah, I'm not sure not sure

1198
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:36,000
where I fall on that.
You know what?

1199
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,300
Those one question we didn't ask
Gareth and I wish we had time,

1200
01:01:39,300 --> 01:01:41,300
we had to get it back on.
We're gonna have to gain back on

1201
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:44,300
one day in the future because I
really wanted to ask Gareth

1202
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:47,400
about his opinions on Russia.
Soon.

1203
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:50,600
Acts kind of Bill other.
There's a bill or move towards

1204
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:52,500
making everyone do Master till
they're 18.

1205
01:01:52,500 --> 01:01:54,700
That's right, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.

1206
01:01:54,700 --> 01:01:55,900
That's that was in the news
recently.

1207
01:01:55,900 --> 01:01:58,000
And that was, that was a big
out.

1208
01:01:58,000 --> 01:01:59,800
Quite it's, it was such a weird
one for me.

1209
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:02,800
I don't about you hate him
because my gut instinct, when I

1210
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:07,000
heard that was, I feel like
there is a lot of math anxiety

1211
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,700
in the adult population.
I feel like a lot of people are

1212
01:02:10,700 --> 01:02:14,200
way more accepting that.
Oh, I don't do maths in a way

1213
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:15,500
that we never see for reading
you.

1214
01:02:15,500 --> 01:02:17,100
Let's see, we're going around
saying, no, I don't read.

1215
01:02:17,100 --> 01:02:19,100
There's a, there's a stigma
around not being able to read

1216
01:02:19,300 --> 01:02:21,700
being illiterate and we need to
help those people as much as

1217
01:02:21,700 --> 01:02:23,600
possible.
But we do get more that people.

1218
01:02:23,700 --> 01:02:25,500
I'll tend to get more
embarrassment from saying they

1219
01:02:25,500 --> 01:02:27,900
can't read.
Whereas when it comes to mass

1220
01:02:27,900 --> 01:02:30,500
it's sometimes worn as a bad.
Oh, I don't do numbers me.

1221
01:02:30,700 --> 01:02:34,100
And that anything that can kind
of help that attitude, we saw it

1222
01:02:34,100 --> 01:02:36,500
during during the lockdown, sand
and covid.

1223
01:02:36,500 --> 01:02:39,200
And things, the statistics that
were brought out daily.

1224
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:43,100
There are people who just kind
of didn't really understand what

1225
01:02:43,100 --> 01:02:46,200
they were looking at, because
they never had to, you know,

1226
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:49,600
progress day am sorry digest
data in such huge amounts.

1227
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:52,700
They lie and they relied on
people interpreting it for them.

1228
01:02:52,700 --> 01:02:56,600
And I think there's There's a
lot to be said for people being

1229
01:02:56,600 --> 01:03:00,500
helped in maths more does making
it compulsory until 18 solve

1230
01:03:00,500 --> 01:03:02,300
that problem.
I don't think it should also

1231
01:03:02,300 --> 01:03:05,200
solves the problem bit.
Better Garrus idea of teaching

1232
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,700
children and young adults about
the emotional side of mass.

1233
01:03:08,700 --> 01:03:12,000
I reducing that anxiety by
tackling it in a different way.

1234
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:14,900
I think our country is obsessed
with do more.

1235
01:03:14,900 --> 01:03:17,100
More is better.
That is like the approach to a

1236
01:03:17,100 --> 01:03:20,900
lot of things is like do do more
people don't like maths can't do

1237
01:03:20,900 --> 01:03:23,600
math, do more.
It's like yeah you know it is a

1238
01:03:23,700 --> 01:03:28,000
A bit deeper than that.
So my gut reaction was is, was

1239
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,600
was like that's a stupid idea.
Stupid idea.

1240
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:34,300
Making people do masturbating
like, yeah, if someone's got to

1241
01:03:34,300 --> 01:03:37,900
16 and they hate math and can't
do it, and they've just got kind

1242
01:03:37,900 --> 01:03:40,900
of completely detach themselves
from it, is putting them through

1243
01:03:40,900 --> 01:03:42,700
two more years of that going to
be highly beneficial.

1244
01:03:42,700 --> 01:03:45,800
I think, like everything ever,
we have to go back to the root

1245
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:48,400
cause and not to get political,
but to get political because we

1246
01:03:48,408 --> 01:03:50,400
like to do that.
Sometimes you do I feel like

1247
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:53,200
it's another Band-Aid rather
than a cause of the root

1248
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:54,700
problem.
You know, this huge problem in

1249
01:03:54,700 --> 01:03:57,800
retains retaining teachers and
and recruiting them, okay?

1250
01:03:57,800 --> 01:03:59,400
We'll put the starting salary up
a bit.

1251
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:01,000
Okay.
Does that help retention?

1252
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:02,700
No.
You know, they said it's another

1253
01:04:02,700 --> 01:04:06,100
sticky plaster on something
rather than getting to the root

1254
01:04:06,100 --> 01:04:09,000
cause of actually trying to fix
it and I think you're right and

1255
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:12,200
I think what Garrison's?
Right is the further back you go

1256
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:15,500
and start to earlier on actually
that path then doesn't have to

1257
01:04:15,508 --> 01:04:17,100
be longer.
It can be shorter but it's a

1258
01:04:17,107 --> 01:04:18,700
better path to be on in the
first place.

1259
01:04:18,700 --> 01:04:20,700
Yeah.
Well luckily rishi's a listener

1260
01:04:20,700 --> 01:04:23,900
and Avid listener actually of
our podcast as could all Your

1261
01:04:23,900 --> 01:04:26,400
friends be if you share this
podcast with a with your

1262
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:29,300
buddies, I just saying oh is
that good?

1263
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:31,000
Is that good thing?
Was that was that was good.

1264
01:04:31,100 --> 01:04:33,600
Yes it's something Hayden.
Listen we've read, we read the

1265
01:04:33,607 --> 01:04:34,900
guides.
We have to say as much as

1266
01:04:34,900 --> 01:04:37,200
possible you know it's cringy
but yeah I love that.

1267
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:40,100
That's really good and you know
we are on Twitter now so you

1268
01:04:40,100 --> 01:04:41,400
could retweet.
It will experience.

1269
01:04:44,900 --> 01:04:47,300
They're gonna love this chair.
That we've just had guys.

1270
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:52,400
I've got what I've got.
Hey guys, we want you to

1271
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:56,000
retweet.
This if you like teaching

1272
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:01,500
spoken, like a spoken, like a
true man, who uses Twitter and

1273
01:05:01,500 --> 01:05:05,500
definitely isn't Wing.
It marketing 101, guys, thank

1274
01:05:05,500 --> 01:05:07,200
you so much for listening.
Hope you found that as useful

1275
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:09,600
and amazing as we did and we'll
catch you next time.