Ep 125: Why Aren't Children Reading For Pleasure?

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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to another episode of Teach

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Sleep, Repeat.
My name is Dylan and my name's

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Hayden, and this week we're
going to be taking a look at why

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reading for enjoyment has
plummeted in recent years.

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We'll discuss some of the
barriers to reading and how to

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overcome them, and ultimately
why reading for pleasure is so

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important and why, as educators
and parents, we should be

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fostering it as much as
possible.

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And of course, if you enjoy this
episode, leave us a review and

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why not get in touch with us on
our socials at Teach Sleep

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Repeat podcast.
Think about reading for pleasure

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in general.
I'm going to come out of this

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whole framing of children for a
second and just ask you

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personally, as an adult, do you
ever feel guilty about how much

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you read?
Because I know you're not really

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a reader.
And as a teacher, do you not

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think like you're almost
ignoring what you preach about

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the importance and the
brilliance of reading?

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Yeah, you've.
Cheers mate.

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You know how you're terrible at
this thing we're talking about?

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We are a voice of.
Authority.

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Yeah, I think it's good story.
I've always said it's good

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story.
Yeah, that's I kind of want to

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throw it to you straight away.
Guilt.

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I don't know if it's the right
word.

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I don't know what the right word
is.

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I'm not sure it's guilt.
But I have always been like

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hyper aware of the fact that I
don't really enjoy reading, but

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I don't really enjoy reading.
I mean, I don't enjoy reading.

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I do not read for pleasure.
Like I don't, I won't.

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You won't catch me picking up a
fiction book and reading it for

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fun.
The odd non fiction book across

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my life has piqued my interest
because it's just a topic that

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I've been interested in and I'll
sit there and read it.

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And even with those, I don't
think I've ever really read it

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cover to cover.
I'll get halfway through a book

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like that and feel like I've
learned all of the stuff that

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satisfies my interest, and then
I'll go and Google something or

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watch some YouTube videos on
that thing more and I'll be

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like, cool, done with that
interest.

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Do you do that with TV shows and
films and stuff?

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No, I always watch them through.
Why then?

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Why do you think there's a
difference there?

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I don't know, maybe I think they
captivate captivate me more.

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I've always found that though,
even as a child, I, I read the

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books I needed to read.
Like I wasn't, I wasn't someone

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who didn't do the reading.
Like if I had to read a certain

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book, you know, to get my stamp
or whatever at school, I would

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do that reading.
And I was, I was an average, if

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not slightly above average
reader.

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Like I got through fine, but I
never really enjoyed it.

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Well.
Even as a child.

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Yeah, even as a child, like I,
I, I didn't, it didn't really

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capture me.
I I remember reading classics

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like Biff and Chip and just
being like.

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I thought you were going to say
something like Wind of the

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Willows.
No, no, no, no not not.

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I remember the lost key, not not
the classics.

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That's the one I'm thinking of
as well.

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Lost key.
Yeah, it was a whole.

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It was like a whole series of.
Things.

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But I tell you what.
I tell you what.

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I've read all the classics me.
Classic The Wind in the Key by

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Biff and Chip.
You can't even think about.

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The classic.
I actually can't think of any

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classics right now.
Charles Dickens by Biff and Chip

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doesn't make any sense, but I
remember I just never really

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found it interesting.
However, I did love and I was

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that kid at school who would sit
there with me.

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Encyclopaedia or that like
massive science book that had

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like just like loads of fun
facts.

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Right, but you enjoyed that?
I enjoyed that and that was

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reading now and that was
reading, but it was never, that

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was never pushed though.
That was very much, oh wow,

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that's cool.
Now let's get a real reading

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book.
And you've got to read those,

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and I didn't like them.
Yeah, we're, I think we're going

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to talk a little bit, explore
that a little bit later in terms

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of, you know, if we broaden what
we count as reading, then

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perhaps actually we look at for
enjoyment.

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There are a lot more avenues
that children can go down.

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But just before we dive into
that whole chat then about, you

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know, the importance of it,
etcetera.

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I'm, I'm only asking, I'm not
actually asking this to catch

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you out at all, but I'm just, I
just want to lay the foundations

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down of there's lots of people
who'll be listening to this who

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are obviously educators, working
in school, teachers, and

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there'll be a lot of people who
love reading.

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Even at the minute on Instagram,
there's this whole nominate

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thing going around what you're
reading at the minute and you

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can nominate other accounts and
things like that.

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So there's a big culture of
adults reading as well, whether

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that's adults reading children's
literature or adults reading

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adult books, etcetera.
There's lots of talk about in

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the education space.
And I just think it's also

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important for a bunch of
listeners out there now who are

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probably thinking to themselves,
oh gosh, I mean, can I be a good

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educator if I'm not reading
constantly?

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If I've not got my nose in the
book, if if I prefer to go and

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do something else on my pleasure
and seek it elsewhere, am I

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hypocrite for telling children
we need to read for pleasure?

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And I am I kind of going against
this whole argument of why it's

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so important if actually as an
adult I'm not doing it myself.

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I don't think it's hypocritical,
but but I do think and, and bear

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in mind, I'm in the camp of I'm
not, I don't really read.

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I do think you're more likely to
be a better, to be a better

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teacher if you read more
children's literature,

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particularly I do.
I genuinely more likely, more

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likely.
I don't think it is guaranteed.

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I don't think I've been a bad
teacher within English.

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I think maybe I, I think maybe I
could have got to like a, maybe

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a certain threshold of teaching
a bit quicker if I just knew a

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bit more children's literature.
But I also read on the job, like

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as part of the job.
I've actually, ironically, read

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a lot of children's literature
now because I've taught a

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billion books in my 10 years of
teaching to kids, which I

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obviously actually needed to
read in advance.

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Like, you know, and yeah, maybe
I would have been a bit better

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if I knew the author or I could
have told children, Oh, I really

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recommend this book by this
author now, now that you've read

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this one because, you know, I'm
such an expert.

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I've read them all.
And I do think those teachers

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probably probably foster a love
for reading a little bit better

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than me.
It's, it's such a good skill to

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have.
I've always been envious of

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those educators who can, you
know, listen to a child read and

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see they're enjoying this series
and then almost have like 14

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other books and they can
recommend as a result.

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And I think that's an amazing
skill.

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And, and it's, it's something
that we should celebrate.

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And it's, it's not something
every single teacher can have.

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And I think you're right in
saying it doesn't necessarily

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mean you're a bad teacher.
Of course not.

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Because I think we're more in
that camp of we'd have to go

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away and do some research.
And there's a difference between

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kind of ignoring it at all as a
problem and say, no, it's fine.

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Now don't worry if you don't
enjoy reading.

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I don't think many teachers are
like that.

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But I think you can really
understand the importance of

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reading and how it can really
impact a child's outcomes.

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But still, as an adult, maybe
not read as much as you would

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like.
So the last thing I'm going to

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ask you, are you happy with the
amount you read as an adult or

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do you still think?
Do you personally think?

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OK I know I don't and I don't
enjoy it but I should read more.

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I think I've slowly gotten, I
used to feel a lot more like

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that.
I used to.

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I think the embarrassment's
probably the right word.

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I genuinely, I think I felt
embarrassed that I didn't read

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like other people read.
And over the years I've just

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learned to accept that I just
don't enjoy that and that is OK.

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In all honesty, I think it's
fine.

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I don't.
I don't think it's a problem.

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So OK, let's bring this round
then to our discussion today.

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Is it OK in a fine if a child
doesn't enjoy reading?

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It's different because they're
still in the learning stage.

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I've done it like I'm I'm
already, I'm over the hill.

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I've already learned to the
level that which I need to be at

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to function in society.
So like it sounds really

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hypocritical, but no, like I
think no, it's no, here's what

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it is.
I think it is objectively OK if

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a child comes to the conclusion
that it's not really a passion

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they want to take up.
Do what?

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So, but do I think children need
to learn to read?

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Yes.
And that's almost a separate

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thing.
I think through enjoyment,

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that's how we foster children
getting to learn how to read.

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So they're kind of they kind of
become LinkedIn with each other.

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So if the question was is is it
important that we do everything

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we possibly can to make kids
enjoy reading, I think the

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answer is yes, because that has
a knock on effect of they're

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probably then going to learn how
to read properly, which is what

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we need to be functioning in
society.

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Right, Because it would be
really, really counterproductive

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for us to kind of just say, oh,
that's fine.

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Then if you don't, it's our job
to really find a way for this to

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be at the forefront of what they
want to do.

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And whether personally, as
educators or not, we go away and

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spend lots of our free time
doing it.

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We know how important it is.
And if a child enjoys it,

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they're going to and spend more
time doing it, get better at

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reading, and therefore have
better outcomes as a result.

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So we're rooting this in.
All I want our listeners to

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think here is whether or not
they personally love reading or

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are avid readers.
As adults, I think we can all

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agree that it's really, really
important that children do read

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lots.
And if children are enjoying it,

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and if we foster an environment
that promotes reading for

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enjoyment, we're not going to
hit every single child all of

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the time because it's literally
impossible.

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But we have to at least look at
ourselves and say we're doing

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everything we can because it's
so important.

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One, one final thing, like a
preface almost that maybe we can

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think about as we're having the
discussion, because we're going

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to talk about some of the
challenges and the barriers to

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reading and how that's changed
over the years is I genuinely

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think there was a, a version of
reality where I would have

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enjoyed reading.
I actually think that could have

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existed.
I think I'm way too deep rooted

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now into the things I like and
the things I don't like as much

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that it'd be really hard to
change.

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But I genuinely think we can go
back in time and make certain

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changes, idealistic, realistic,
whatever.

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And I could have maybe between
someone who enjoyed reading do.

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You think if it was fostered a
bit more around your actual

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enjoyment and seeing what you
were reading and accepting that

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is reading and therefore it's
good, like your encyclopaedia or

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sat down reading your facts,
would that have kind of wormed

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you into a wider sense of
reading in general do you think?

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I think that is one of a few
factors that we should go

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through now that probably could
have made a difference, but I

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don't think that alone.
No.

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OK, cool.
Well, we're going to go through

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a bunch of them.
I'm going to start off with a

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statistic because it's going to
link it with my first question

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to you.
So here it's from the National

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Liturgy Trust and this kind of
grounds the whole conversation

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that we're having about reading
for pleasure.

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So just one in three children
and young people said that they

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enjoyed reading in their free
time in 2025 S just for context

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there, that means two in three
don't.

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So one in three only are
enjoying reading.

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And that's on its own is kind of
a damning statistic because

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00:09:20,680 --> 00:09:22,400
we've just talked about how
important it is to try and

225
00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,400
foster that.
But what makes it even more of a

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00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,400
worry, in my opinion, is that
that that marks a 36% decrease

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00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:32,720
in reading enjoyment levels
since 2005.

228
00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,320
Yeah, that's really interesting.
It fits the narrative.

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00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,920
I think if it's what I feel like
makes sense.

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00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,960
And I I was in the it's kind of
it's all in 3rd, isn't it

231
00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:42,800
really?
36% is nearly 1/3 right?

232
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:44,640
So it's kind of like thinking
about math somehow.

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00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:46,640
You had to have to bring around
to the really good subject.

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00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:48,960
Well, that's basically what I
was going to say to you, is does

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00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,920
that match your impression?
You've been in the job for 10

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00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:51,920
years.
You've been teaching and

237
00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,320
training since 2015.
Yeah, it's not quite 2005, But

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00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,120
have you, have you witnessed
that dip?

239
00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,280
Is it something you've seen as
an educator in school?

240
00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,400
I think I've seen a slight dip.
I wouldn't, I wouldn't say like,

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00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,400
I mean, I know that's over a 20
year period and we're talking

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00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,000
over a 10 year period.
I don't, I'd only say it's a

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00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,400
slight dip and I'd say a bit
more amplified in the last

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00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,640
couple of years.
From my personal experience of

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00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,920
children not enjoying reading,
I'd say it's been roughly that

246
00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:16,680
10 years ago it was roughly the
same.

247
00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:18,520
I had a rough amount, you know,
the same amount of children in

248
00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,640
my class that didn't enjoy
reading, but that.

249
00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:22,480
But compared to the last couple
of years, I think that has

250
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,120
noticeably dipped even more.
I don't know about you.

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00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:30,440
No, I think from what I've seen
in the classroom, I guess it's a

252
00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,120
huge thing that I you've, it's
got to come back to this.

253
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,400
I hate coming back to this every
time because it feels like a

254
00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,480
pointless thing to say.
But when library books aren't

255
00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:43,320
updated over a decade, OK, and
and and money is squeezed so

256
00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,760
much in scores, how, how, what
is that going to manifest itself

257
00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,040
as?
And as a teacher, I just find it

258
00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,800
a lot of children and more and
more and more as time went on,

259
00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:54,280
there were more and more
children saying, well, I've read

260
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,680
these books, I've finished them,
I've done them.

261
00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,120
And those children who are avid
readers kind of run out very

262
00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:00,800
quickly.
And those children who aren't

263
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,920
necessarily avid readers, but
are really hyper focused and

264
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,960
intently enjoy one subset of a
genre perhaps.

265
00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,320
Or maybe they absolutely love
graphic novels or they're just

266
00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,400
into something else, like you
said, like your fact books.

267
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,280
That's just one slither of the
books we offer the children.

268
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,240
And you can rinse through those
very quickly and you kind of

269
00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,040
lose interest then because it's
enough variety.

270
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,120
So yeah, I would say I've
noticed a decrease, I think in

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00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,000
that reading.
And again, we're going to come

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00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:27,920
on to it later on, I think when
we talk about the individual

273
00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,880
barriers and stuff.
But I think again, I don't like

274
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,160
just pointing the finger and I'm
not doing that at all.

275
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,680
But you we've got to look at the
the attitude from home as well

276
00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:39,160
and, and reading in the
household.

277
00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,120
And there's loads of statistics
we're going to get onto about

278
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,200
how reading is less and less and
less on a pedestal in homes.

279
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,120
And how many times as a teacher
have you maybe seen reading

280
00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,640
records as all this discussion
about reading records and how

281
00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,960
effective they are, But how many
times have you said, well,

282
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,720
there's only so much we can do?
Yeah, I mean loads of times

283
00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,280
because because if the family
don't read with a child, then

284
00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,560
like I can't be that family role
for do you know what?

285
00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:06,560
I mean, and do you find I found
a lot in that time as well, I've

286
00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:09,160
had less and less and less time
to sit just one to one and

287
00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:10,880
listen to a child reading.
Oh, yeah, that's a big I've

288
00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,400
we're kind of flitting over a
lot of the barriers I think

289
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:14,360
we're going to talk about in a
minute.

290
00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,040
But yeah, that's another, that's
another big thing.

291
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:17,560
You know, how many roles can we
be?

292
00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:19,560
We've had a whole conversation
about what role should a teacher

293
00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:21,800
be in a school?
Like, are we there to help them

294
00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,320
use cutlery?
You know, are we there to be

295
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:25,640
their home, do the homework with
them?

296
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:26,800
Are we there to do the home
reading with them?

297
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:28,120
It's like there's only so much
you can do.

298
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,840
And like you said, when time in
school is whittled down by other

299
00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,800
curriculum stresses and and
forces that be, it's really hard

300
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,240
to build in a bit of time where
you say, yeah, I'm going to read

301
00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:39,400
with, I don't know, U six kids
today, I'm going to do U six

302
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,520
kids the next day I'm going to
do a good 5 minutes one to one.

303
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,000
That used to, that definitely
used to be more of a thing.

304
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,680
I think that's a huge thing I
have personally seen in decline

305
00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:48,680
even in 10 years.
That's one thing I can put my

306
00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:50,880
finger on and say, Oh yeah, that
thing is gone.

307
00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:52,840
That thing is gone.
I'm sure some schools still

308
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,560
manage it, but at great cost.
At a greater cost than it would

309
00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:58,480
have been 10 years ago.
And the biggest, biggest shame

310
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,200
from that is that those children
who aren't getting that support

311
00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,960
from home have then lost that in
school as well.

312
00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:05,920
And those children aren't being
listened to read enough.

313
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,800
And I think we have to put that
centre stage.

314
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,600
So let's go into our first kind
of barrier here then.

315
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,880
Like what, why, why is it that
children enjoyment for reading

316
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,720
levels have decreased then?
And they just have, they've got

317
00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:20,560
lower.
So the first thing we want to

318
00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:23,440
talk about is access.
And I, I wanted to just mention

319
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,600
this because I was listening to
Rachel Reeves talk a few weeks

320
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,960
ago and she was talking about
how the government are going to

321
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:31,320
have a push on reading.
They're going to have a real

322
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:32,760
push and make it a year of
reading.

323
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,800
And, and it's fantastic.
You, you can't, you can't

324
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:36,400
discredit that.
You know, the fact we're talking

325
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,120
about it is really good.
But one line really stuck with

326
00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:40,960
me because it, it kind of
shocked me.

327
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,080
And it was said in a way where
isn't this great?

328
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,360
And the only thing I could think
of was what on earth?

329
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,920
How is this not already a thing?
So Rachel Reeve said by the end

330
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,760
of this parliament, every single
primary school will have a

331
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,560
library.
What do you think my first

332
00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:01,640
thought was?
Schools don't have libraries in

333
00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,160
2025 if.
I just had to think if I was

334
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,560
starting from scratch and
building a school from something

335
00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:08,600
that didn't exist.
Right.

336
00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:09,280
Yeah.
OK.

337
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,560
You'd have your classrooms.
You'd have your lunch hall where

338
00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:13,360
you can eat your lunch.
You'd have a car park for the

339
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:14,080
staff.
Yeah.

340
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:15,360
You'd have all those things.
An office.

341
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:16,320
You need an office.
Yeah.

342
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,760
Very much at the top of that
list would be the first thing I

343
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,240
think about in terms of teaching
and learning would be, well, we

344
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,840
need a hub for reading, right?
Because reading is by far and

345
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:25,720
away the most.
Important thing.

346
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:27,880
It's non negotable, isn't it?
It's like in the same way I

347
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,640
obviously need a hall, right to
do assemblies and things, I need

348
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,920
a library as well.
Like they just, they just, it

349
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,600
doesn't even, you can't even
like, I can't fathom the idea

350
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,200
that's not on that first list.
So here's here's the statistic

351
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,720
of how many state schools, state
primary schools don't have a

352
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,640
library.
One in seven, one in seven state

353
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,040
schools don't have a library,
and that rises to one in four

354
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,240
not having a library in
disadvantaged areas.

355
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,000
Oh, wow.
So children coming from poorer

356
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,240
backgrounds are less likely to
have access to a library in

357
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:57,360
their school.
Now, I want to make something

358
00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,400
really clear.
This doesn't mean there are

359
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,720
schools out there where children
don't get books, OK?

360
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,080
This is very much at the core of
what we're talking about here,

361
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:05,720
which is reading for enjoyment,
OK?

362
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,240
I think there is a difference
between a child going into

363
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,760
school and having their book
changed once or twice a week in

364
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,480
the book bag, and now we're on a
red band and then we're on the

365
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:13,160
purple band.
OK.

366
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,440
I think that's happening in most
schools because you've got to go

367
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,800
through the reading levels and
get better at reading and

368
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,120
improve.
What we're talking about here is

369
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,360
if you think about reading for
enjoyment and getting readers

370
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,440
ready for society and getting
them to find what they love and

371
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,560
just reading for the sake of
reading, which is really

372
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,520
important.
A library is essential to that.

373
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,080
Like that you need to be able to
go into a library and see that

374
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,480
these things exist.
There are bookshelves upon

375
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,200
bookshelves of books.
And I might not like all of

376
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,160
these books, and I certainly
don't want to read that genre

377
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:43,320
over there.
Well, I'm not going to read

378
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:44,480
them.
That's just not for me.

379
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,960
But this, Oh my gosh, this book.
And next to it, there's going to

380
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,880
have things by the same author.
But this is all, it's in

381
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,040
alphabetical order, is it?
And there are genres around.

382
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,440
And I might go over here and
there's a corner over there

383
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,640
where there's some lovely
plushies and a nice comfortable

384
00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,200
place where I can just sit and
read.

385
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,720
When I was at primary school, I
was in a relatively new primary

386
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,000
school.
I'd only been built for about 5

387
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,120
years when I joined.
And when I was in year 3 or year

388
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,960
4, I remember this so well.
And it's, it's backing up what

389
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,840
you're saying.
I remember them building a new

390
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,000
library inside of our school.
They actually, it was like, it

391
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,160
was like a loft conversion.
It was a space that was just,

392
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,560
you know, schools are really
tall in the corridors.

393
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:22,880
There was just this massive
space, like upward space.

394
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,240
And I'm like, should we just put
a staircase in and just make a

395
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,560
massive library up here?
And it was unreal.

396
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,040
I still remember it to this day
vividly because I remember going

397
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,480
to it for the first time and it
was kitted out with beanbags.

398
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,280
It's all colourful, like you
said there was John was all over

399
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,760
the place because I can't what
we had before that we either

400
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,280
didn't have a proper library or
it was like a really small sort

401
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,440
of shoddy 1.
Well, quite often it's it's like

402
00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:43,720
bookshelves in the corridor
kind.

403
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:44,720
Of yeah, that definitely was a
thing.

404
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,360
Yeah, we had, we had like a lot
of our classes were linked.

405
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,880
They come in twos and we'd have
like this a shared area in

406
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,440
between them and they had just a
kind of makeshift bookshelf in

407
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:54,840
there.
They had a had a good amount of

408
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,120
books in there, but it wasn't a
library.

409
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,760
That's exactly what I mean here.
And I'm saying I'm not.

410
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,480
What I'm not saying is I don't
want anyone to think that one in

411
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,760
seven schools aren't getting
books sent home because they

412
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,000
have a library, has like a hub
for reading and a place to go

413
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,599
through.
I just feel like if we're, if

414
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:11,880
we're going to have this, you
know, year of reading, I think

415
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,040
it's a really, really good aim
from the government.

416
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,839
I'm going to give them their
dues, whether to say that by the

417
00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:18,880
end of the Parliament we're
going to have a library in every

418
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:19,800
school.
I don't know how we're going to

419
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,440
achieve that.
I don't know how we're going to

420
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:22,520
find space for that.
We're going to have.

421
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,240
We need to put our money where
our mouth is, but it has to be

422
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,800
put in a pedestal that reading
for the sake of reading and for

423
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,720
the sake of enjoyment is itself
enough.

424
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,320
And we don't have to track
everything against end of key

425
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,840
stage 2 SAT papers.
We don't have to track

426
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,160
everything against Are they
improving in their retrieval and

427
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:40,280
their inference and their
summary?

428
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,520
And is the teacher making sure
that when they're picking a

429
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,560
book, they're asking them a
summary question every 3 pages

430
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,160
and then there's a prediction
question at the end of every

431
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:47,880
chapter?
So we're going to do that.

432
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,920
We're going to.
It's important to have that

433
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:51,400
knowledge when you're reading
with the child.

434
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,240
But like we said, there's not
enough time to do that every

435
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,040
time.
Do you know what is good and is

436
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,280
more than enough?
And is a brilliant use of our

437
00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,440
money as a society is to have
places for children to be safe

438
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:03,840
and warm and love reading.
I agree.

439
00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:06,040
And I just going back to the
point you mentioned, because I

440
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,240
will die on this hill and I've
mentioned this podcast and I'll

441
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,520
mention it again.
You could even strip out all the

442
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,680
stuff about, oh, we haven't.
We're doing retrieval questions

443
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:14,720
today and now we're learning
inference.

444
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:16,080
Now we're doing three more
questions.

445
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,080
I still firmly believe you could
not even have that exist in the

446
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,000
curriculum and just focus on
getting kids to like books.

447
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,400
And they will still pass
whatever thresholds we make for

448
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,720
them, whatever SAT exam,
whatever stupid bars we set

449
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,240
because enjoyment for reading
transcends all of it.

450
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,200
It's so much more important.
So yes, access to books and

451
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,520
having a library and a place to
love learning couldn't be more

452
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,480
important.
How many times just to finish on

453
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:38,960
that point, because you've
really struck A chord with me

454
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:43,080
there.
Have you got your new class and

455
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:44,680
you spend a couple of weeks your
class?

456
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,880
You get to know them and you do
start to notice those children

457
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,320
who just have an absolute love
for reading and have access to

458
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,960
different genres and have that.
Whether it's a home life that

459
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:55,960
they've got built up around them
where they're able to do that,

460
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,440
or maybe they've just piqued an
interest and you just think to

461
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,760
yourself, they're going to get
expected.

462
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,080
Yeah, they're going to get
greater depth in their reading.

463
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,720
And, and there is so many
children who have achieved

464
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,760
greater depth under my teaching
where I more than ever, a more

465
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,280
bigger ratio, let's say, has
been down to the fact that child

466
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:16,840
has read so much.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

467
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:18,680
Way more than whatever input
I've put in.

468
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,320
Yeah, I, I often, I often joke
about it in sort of like it's

469
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,800
quite, quite pessimistic, right?
But I'll joke about it because

470
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,600
I've been here 6 for years where
we'll say we'll celebrate our

471
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,320
greater depth.
Oh, this kid got greater depth

472
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:31,720
or this kid got expected.
I was like, yeah, they would

473
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:33,720
have done if we taught them
nothing because they love

474
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,920
reading like that.
It's just, I just try and ground

475
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,520
it a bit where it's like, yeah,
I didn't do that, I didn't do

476
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:40,080
that.
They came into my class loving

477
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,440
reading, reading books that are
like 4 years above them already.

478
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,200
They could have not taken part
in any of my lessons where we

479
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,320
sat there and unpicked how to do
free mark questions.

480
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,960
It was boring rubbish and they
still would have got greater

481
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,240
depth because they can read.
That's the point.

482
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:54,600
They can read really well.
Yeah.

483
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,960
So you know, when we're thinking
of what's higher on this

484
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,720
pedestal, we can worry and and
fret and I get why leaders do

485
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,440
about SAT results and then we
need to be doing lots of SAT

486
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,000
prep and exact test style
questions.

487
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,640
I understand why, but I do just
think you don't have to do that.

488
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:09,800
I completely agree.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

489
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,360
Normally what comes, what it
comes down to is we haven't got

490
00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:14,480
enough time now to get this
child to love reading because

491
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,640
they're they're 9 already and
we've not done it yet.

492
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,840
So what can we do to make any
impact on their data?

493
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,720
The one thing you can do is
teach them lessons like that to

494
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,320
try and make a little 5%, just
just get them over that hill.

495
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,400
So they pass the test is and it
and it just becomes about tests,

496
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:29,960
you know, and we're going to
talk about tests in a minute.

497
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,560
So, yeah, access to books
really, really important.

498
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:34,920
Let's talk about the second
thing I'll issue.

499
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,240
So the second thing is something
you you mentioned earlier, but

500
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,880
let's go into a bit more detail.
Just not being read to.

501
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:43,840
So like it's just real.
Not not every child is being

502
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:45,840
read to at home.
I'm talking about here and at

503
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,200
school because you even
mentioned how in the curriculum

504
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,480
we're losing time at school to
read as well.

505
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,360
Yeah, I can.
I can just say now as a teacher,

506
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,480
through no fault of my own, I'm
not, I'm not making this choice.

507
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,000
And it's we can point a thing
wherever we like, you know, let

508
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,080
the viewers decide on listeners
to decide of where the problem

509
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,160
is.
But it is literally I spend less

510
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,800
time sat listening to children
read than I did 10 years ago.

511
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:10,760
And that's a fact.
That's a fact.

512
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,200
Yeah, so I've got a stat for you
here.

513
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,200
So there's a huge difference
between children who are read to

514
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,320
regularly and children who are
not read to or read to very

515
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,760
rarely in terms of how much they
then go and read independently,

516
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,480
right.
So this stat says only 13% of 5

517
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,600
to 11 year olds read daily if
they're read too rarely.

518
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,000
And that goes up to 66% of those
children will read regularly by

519
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,680
themselves if they're read too
daily.

520
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,680
So what I'm trying to get here,
because that's quite a confusing

521
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,600
stat, is that children that are
read to regularly then go ahead,

522
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,560
go away and read to themselves
as well.

523
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:47,080
So it's just highlighting the
impact of reading with and to

524
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,200
your children.
Like I think sometimes the two

525
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,200
gets forgotten.
They think, oh, all we have to

526
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,160
do.
By they, I just mean all of us.

527
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,480
We think, oh, yeah, we, we have
to just listen to the children

528
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:57,280
read.
That's how they get better

529
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:58,080
reading.
What is it?

530
00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:00,640
And sometimes people dismiss the
idea that if you read to them,

531
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,280
that's not helping them.
No, it does.

532
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,000
Because remember, we've
established that reading for

533
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,600
enjoyment is already a huge
factor in how well children can

534
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,920
read.
And reading to them makes them

535
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:11,280
enjoy reading more.
It's like, it's just like

536
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:12,600
another.
It's a step removed.

537
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,560
Yeah, find that maybe they're
not sat there and decoding

538
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,720
words, whatever, doesn't matter.
But they're enjoying reading

539
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,600
because then they go away and
read more themselves and.

540
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,360
I'm not being funny, they start.
You know, my children are like,

541
00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:23,760
they're like sponges and they'll
read along with you.

542
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:24,760
That'll be what watching you
read.

543
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,920
And there'll be words they don't
see or understand, and they'll

544
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,400
hear you say them out loud.
And this is a battle.

545
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,160
I've had a lot with parents over
the years.

546
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,160
And sometimes you accept it and
you say, OK, yeah, you're not

547
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:35,560
going to read as much of your
children.

548
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,560
And sometimes you don't.
You say, well, actually, do you

549
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:38,920
know what?
Reading to them will really

550
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,080
help.
And it's this whole idea of, OK,

551
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,720
I don't have time to read with
my child, OK.

552
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,000
And parents will say, I just
have time.

553
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,600
So, you know, in the car in the
morning on the way to school,

554
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,760
they've got their book.
They read out loud to me.

555
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,760
I'm driving to school.
And then I, I quickly sign their

556
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,200
book.
There's a place for that.

557
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:55,840
I'm not saying that's bad,
that's great.

558
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:56,960
You listen to your children
better.

559
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:58,400
Nothing, right?
It's absolutely better than

560
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,280
nothing.
And on its own it can have a

561
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,120
good impact.
Okay, absolutely.

562
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:05,120
It's good in its own right, but
you just, you just can't get

563
00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:10,120
past an experienced reader,
someone who's an adult quite

564
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:13,680
often reading to a child,
putting on voices, making it

565
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,560
silly, making it funny, not
having to stop every two

566
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,880
sentences and say what do you
think will happen next or what?

567
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,040
Just that is so good.
And I don't want anyone to, you

568
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,560
know, just hear this bit of me
saying that and go, oh, no, no,

569
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,720
it is good to question stuff and
I get that, but it's not really

570
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,720
what I'm talking about here.
I'm talking about reading for

571
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,440
enjoyment.
And I used to love sitting

572
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,440
there.
And my mum would read me books

573
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,720
when I went to bed.
And I, everybody remembered

574
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:38,840
them.
I talked about one book that my

575
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,880
teacher read to me.
I would find time at the end of

576
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,200
every day.
And it's called Beaver Towers.

577
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,920
And I remember it now.
And I remember there were three

578
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,720
characters who were mechanics.
Do you know what their names

579
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,600
were?
Go on, Nick and.

580
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,120
And Nick.
And I remember it so vividly

581
00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:56,640
thinking, oh, that's hilarious.
And I was so hooked by this,

582
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,040
like, fancy story of boy being
whisked, whisked away by a kite

583
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,160
to this island.
Yeah, and it wasn't, it wasn't

584
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,880
there me going, oh, my teacher
just asked me about the

585
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,080
intentions of this character.
And that's really enjoyment.

586
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,720
That's full of enjoyment to me.
No, I just wanted to hear a

587
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,400
story.
And I wanted to hear my teacher

588
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,520
put on the funny voices.
And I wanted to be transported

589
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,920
into this world and really,
really enjoy it.

590
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,280
And that has value in itself.
And we talk about not being read

591
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:23,960
to.
And we're kind of going the

592
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,480
angle of parents here.
And I know it's tricky with time

593
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,040
at home.
And we're in a society now

594
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,880
that's very different, where
both parents are often working

595
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,320
and you do get less and there's
time with your children and

596
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,440
you've given them food and oh
gosh, it's bedtime, right?

597
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,080
Let's go and read a book.
And I've got 3 kids.

598
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:38,440
I can't read, I can't listen to
them all.

599
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,040
I completely get all of that.
But we have to, we have to be

600
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:43,920
really clear that it is on a
pedestal though.

601
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,240
If there's one thing you're
going to do with your children,

602
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:47,880
read with them.
Yeah, I think, I think that's

603
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,520
the thing, isn't it?
You know, we can be sympathetic

604
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,960
and also say, do you know what,
it might just be a priority

605
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,200
shift in your household.
Maybe there's something else

606
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,120
that they do do or you do do
with them or they do

607
00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:59,160
independently, whatever, that
maybe maybe that just needs to

608
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:00,960
be swapped in for a bit of
reading time.

609
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,200
I don't know.
So you know how I said at the

610
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,720
beginning, we should go back to
thinking about me as a kid and

611
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:05,800
how what maybe would have
helped?

612
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,560
So you talked about you being a
kid and having your mum read to

613
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,360
you and that thing your teacher
reading I, my household when

614
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:14,160
we're not readers.
So my, I lived with my mum, my

615
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,760
sister and my stepdad.
No one reads in my household.

616
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,280
So that was one thing.
I think if that, if that was

617
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,240
different, I think that could
have played into my mind a bit

618
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,320
more if I saw my parents reading
or if we read as a family.

619
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,680
We, we just didn't do that.
It wasn't a thing.

620
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,360
But picking up books like that,
we did the reading that we had

621
00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:32,280
to do for school and my mum
would always just doing like my

622
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,480
3 readings a week, whatever, get
my reading record signed and it

623
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:35,760
would always be me reading to
her.

624
00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:37,400
But that was it.
Do you know what I mean?

625
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,280
And, and I do wonder if if I saw
my mum reading for an hour or my

626
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,840
stepdad or my sister, whatever,
then maybe I'd pick up a book as

627
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,000
well.
So that's definitely a thing

628
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,760
that helps.
And, and the second thing is,

629
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,760
yeah, in schools as educators, I
think if we think about

630
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,440
solutions as to this as well, a
solution to this is we have to

631
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,600
fight for time in the classroom.
Let's get that time back.

632
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:56,960
Or maybe your school already
does it.

633
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,040
Protect that time because
reading to your class, we've

634
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,400
just established the positive
impacts that can have on them.

635
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:04,760
Don't think, oh, it's wasted
time.

636
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,480
It's not them learning, it's not
them answering questions, it's

637
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,840
not them independently reading.
It's not them decoding to an

638
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,480
adult.
No, no, it is a fantastic

639
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:13,760
opportunity.
If they're not getting it at

640
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,880
home, they can at least get it
in the one place we definitely

641
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,200
can control, which is with you,
the educator at school.

642
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,400
Absolutely.
I want to move on to another

643
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,760
barrier here because it links
with what we're just saying

644
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,880
about school.
So I want to talk about this

645
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,160
barrier we have in terms of the
perception of reading as work

646
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:31,720
like you've just spoken about
there.

647
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,280
And I think that plays into why
that time is being squeezed and

648
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:37,560
squeezed and squeezed and
squeezed.

649
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,040
It plays into that fact that we
think to ourselves, Oh my gosh,

650
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,160
I've just read to my class for
20 minutes.

651
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,800
There's nothing on the paper.
I've not done a test style

652
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,840
question.
I've not done any inference with

653
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,160
them and seen if they would be
able to answer something when it

654
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,200
comes up in a test.
That is killing reading for

655
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,400
enjoyment in my opinion, because
it's no longer reading for

656
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,160
enjoyment, it's reading for
passing a test.

657
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:01,600
It's reading for answering a
question type that might come up

658
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,640
in the future.
And I understand why it's

659
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,240
important and I know why we do
it.

660
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,600
And I'm not saying we should
never ever do any retrieval

661
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,320
questions or what inference work
or predictions.

662
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:13,560
I am you really.
Yeah, you're a bit more extreme

663
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,120
than me in terms of you do far
less of it.

664
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,760
I still think it's important to
do, but I just think you have to

665
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,920
separate them and you have to
accept that on it's own, stand

666
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,800
alone, reading a book because
it's just a fun book to read is

667
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,920
having an impact which is enough
on it's own.

668
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,080
I agree.
I think all I need to add to

669
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,760
that is we just, we just need to
check ourselves.

670
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,640
Seriously, we just need to stop
and think.

671
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,280
Like think, if you're listening
to this, you're an educator.

672
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,880
How obsessed have is your school
or maybe yourself with

673
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,920
measuring, with measuring stuff?
Like we talk about this all the

674
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,520
time on the podcast.
How obsessed have we become as a

675
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,280
measurement culture?
If we can't measure it, it

676
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,000
doesn't matter.
Like, let's just calm down for a

677
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,440
minute and maybe individually
you can take yourself out of

678
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,200
that and be like, right, what am
I really giving the kids in my

679
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,360
class?
Is there something I can do?

680
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:02,400
Maybe it's a little bit sneaky,
but is can I give them 5 minutes

681
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,280
the end of the day where I don't
do this, have a thing for 5

682
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,040
minutes and I let them read
their book?

683
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,640
I don't know, 5 minutes maybe
isn't enough.

684
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,360
But I think we just need to
stop, reflect as a school, as an

685
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:15,000
individual, and make a change.
That's like, what else can we

686
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,400
do?
We have to change something.

687
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,760
Yeah, completely.
And it's that obsession with

688
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,680
being able to see what impact
it's had.

689
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,960
I think, come on.
OK, we can.

690
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,160
If we did this, we would
probably see an impact on

691
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,960
reading scores in general, like
you said earlier, because if

692
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,920
children enjoy reading more,
they're going to go and pick up

693
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,040
a book and read the rest of the
series and improve as a reader.

694
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,760
But it's going to be really hard
to track actually what's

695
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:36,800
happening there.
But it.

696
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,040
But the point being, it doesn't
matter.

697
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,960
Yeah, we are professional enough
and have been trained in enough

698
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,640
in, in, in education and seeing
the impact that reading for

699
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:51,120
enjoyment has that as a like as
a kind of culture in our school,

700
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,680
we can do that and say to
ourselves, no, I know this is

701
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,000
having an impact.
No, I can't point to a

702
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,720
spreadsheet which tells you the
percentage of enjoyment for

703
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,000
reading of each children, how
it's moved and it's accelerated

704
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,560
progress.
No, I can't do that.

705
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,120
Does it mean it's not a good
thing?

706
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,200
No, just have some time for
reading and if it means you

707
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,040
don't do a specific thing in
your afternoon curriculum, more

708
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,080
So what?
Yeah, I agree.

709
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,880
So so far, I feel like we're
kind of talking about solutions

710
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:19,560
as we go, right?
We've had a lot of solutions.

711
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,520
You know, I say very lightly, we
need more money for libraries.

712
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,360
We need to maybe enrich parent
culture a bit more.

713
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,720
And there's lots of ways you can
do that culture at home with

714
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,320
reading.
And we're also saying in the

715
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:29,680
classroom, there's some things
we can do as well.

716
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,280
There's one more thing before we
talk about the big 1, and I feel

717
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,320
like people will be waiting for
the big one about screen time is

718
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,200
what just interested me when I
was when I was doing a bit of

719
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,240
research is representation.
So here's a stat for you.

720
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,720
Only one in six books in 2023
featured A racially minoritized

721
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,320
character, which was down from
one in three in 2022.

722
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,040
So there's only a one year
difference there.

723
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:53,720
Maybe it's a weirdest.
Than a year.

724
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,680
But it just made me think it was
always less about the stat.

725
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,080
It was more about, Oh yeah, do
you know what?

726
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,760
How much does that come into
play, just being represented in

727
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:01,760
books?
How much does you know?

728
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,440
How much will that affect a
child picking up a book?

729
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,080
And to me, it's, I think it's
fairly obvious.

730
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,920
It's like representation's
always been a thing, Like we've

731
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,200
always harped on about we should
probably represent everybody and

732
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,080
things because that's how we
connect the characters.

733
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,280
That's how we connect to books.
So I just think it was a, it was

734
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:17,760
a, it was a small point.
I don't know if you want to add

735
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,520
anything to it, but I just think
it's interesting when we're in

736
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,080
this discussion to consider the
idea that from a, from an

737
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,080
author's perspective, if you're
an author listening to this,

738
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,320
because we've got lots of
different avenues of solutions

739
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:27,960
here, from money to schools to
parents.

740
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,120
As authors, it should just be
down to are we representing

741
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,440
children in a fairway so that
children from different groups

742
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,840
are seeing themselves in books
and then wanting to pick up that

743
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,520
book or that series and read
more.

744
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,840
I think it's pretty obvious from
when I see children get hooked

745
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,840
on books then OK, listen,
children aren't a 10 year old

746
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:51,200
girl from, you know, South
London is not just only going to

747
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,960
read books about 10 year old
girls from South London.

748
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,360
That's not what we're saying.
Or who who profiles with them

749
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,360
racially and their age and their
interests and stuff.

750
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,200
OK, obviously we know that's not
true.

751
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,760
We know children are going to
read a large variety of genres

752
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,400
and books, but we're talking
about increasing children

753
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,200
interested in what they're
reading.

754
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,600
They're going to be picking up
books of things they're

755
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,520
interested in.
I just think about some of the

756
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,600
boys who I've taught recently
who are obsessed with football

757
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,080
don't necessarily like reading
that much.

758
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,000
And this is a subset of boys
because there's lots of boys who

759
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,240
love reading, but that subset of
boys found a whole series of

760
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,080
autobiographies about famous
footballers, OK, Immediately

761
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,240
that represented their
interests.

762
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:28,560
OK.
So, yeah, OK, we're talking

763
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,600
about representation in general.
And I think that's really,

764
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,840
really important because what
you don't want is book after

765
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,240
book after book after book of
characters around your age but

766
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,280
aren't really representing your
society or your background or

767
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:41,680
where you've come from, what you
are.

768
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,760
We need that to happen.
And anyone who sat there saying

769
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,400
anything along the lines of rich
not important, who cares what

770
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:49,640
it.
Yeah, yeah, who cares?

771
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,000
It sounds like you care.
Sounds like you care that it's

772
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,880
changing, actually.
So if your point is, who cares

773
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,680
what colour or background
someone is?

774
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,280
Don't care, then if it's
changing, why would you care?

775
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,320
You clearly do care.
So don't worry about it, mate,

776
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,760
because the only reason that
it's going to be picked up more

777
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,680
is because it is important for
some people, yeah.

778
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:08,920
And if you don't think it's
important, it's usually from a

779
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,800
place of you've got enough of
that representation already.

780
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,040
Yeah.
So it's if it's not a problem

781
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,120
for you, then then it doesn't
mean it's not a problem for

782
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:15,680
someone else.
Yeah.

783
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,920
And I just think it's it's hard
to argue against.

784
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,760
I think it's really important.
Why would we not do that in our

785
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,800
books and our genres, etcetera?
And again, if we've got a

786
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,920
fantasy book about Centaur, OK,
yeah, then yeah, there are no

787
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,120
centaurs out.
There, well, I don't know I've.

788
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,600
Been thinking about myself
actually if we think about this

789
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,600
podcast recording, we never see
your bottom half no if you could

790
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,000
be half or.
There's not actually a chair

791
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,520
behind me, I will just say that
right now.

792
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,320
But my point here is it is
important.

793
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:44,840
It's strange.
There was a dip.

794
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,600
I think also sure,
representation of characters and

795
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:48,720
backgrounds and things like
that.

796
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,120
But you know, you've only got to
think about, I'm going to say

797
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,200
his name, David Walliams books
and those, those those

798
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,800
stereotypes and the jokes,
etcetera.

799
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,080
Yeah, OK.
It's for an adult audience who

800
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:00,920
get the nuance and maybe can
understand it.

801
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,840
OK.
There might be something where

802
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,480
you say it's fine for a kid.
It's insane some of the things

803
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,400
that are in that book and it's
just not acceptable.

804
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,640
So you do just have to have a
line with children.

805
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,040
I think we all agree that.
But yeah, I think I think it's

806
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:14,720
absolutely important.
And my point I was going to say

807
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,400
is I also think we need
representation in terms of the

808
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,360
authors themselves and their
backgrounds and their

809
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,080
experiences from where they've
come from, because they're going

810
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,360
to tell different stories.
Because what good authors do is

811
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,840
take their experiences and their
thoughts and their ideas and put

812
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,680
it through characters and
storylines and plots.

813
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,040
So if we managed to diversify
that even more, it's only going

814
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,920
to increase and make better the
pool of reading for our

815
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,400
children, which will only
increasing and get better the

816
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,160
reading for enjoyment levels.
Yeah, definitely.

817
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,800
Quick thing you can do as an
educator right now or not maybe

818
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,680
right now, but when you're next
in school, No, no, right now is

819
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,080
is just do a genuinely like do a
bit of an audit.

820
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:51,960
You don't have to take it super
seriously, but just have a look.

821
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,360
Have a look at if you've got a
little class library, all there

822
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,160
is a share area library or there
is a proper library.

823
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:57,520
Maybe that's a bit too much of a
big job.

824
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,160
It might be a librarians job,
but it could just be worth

825
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,120
having a look is is there a fair
portion of representation,

826
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,440
proportion of representation in
your in your access to books?

827
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,719
You know your school.
Especially if if you look at,

828
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,280
you know, your cohort.
Yeah.

829
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,800
Is it representative of the
children that it's kind of, you

830
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,880
know, you're feeding them these
books and saying, go on, kids

831
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,199
enjoy these books, You've got to
meet their needs.

832
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:19,880
And yeah, representation is
important.

833
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,159
But also have an audit of what
they're interested in.

834
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,800
Yeah.
Oh, half my cohort love graphic

835
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,840
novels, comic books, and it's 2%
of my library.

836
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,679
OK.
If I'm really taking seriously

837
00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:33,199
this enjoyment for reading, I
have to represent not only the

838
00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:35,560
people that I'm serving, but
also the interests.

839
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:36,440
Yeah, sure.
We have to get.

840
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,520
That and, and, and there is a
level of presumption and you

841
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,280
can't, you can't know everything
about what people are interested

842
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:41,159
in.
I want to pick up one point

843
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:42,400
because I know you'll be like,
oh, here we go.

844
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:44,560
Earlier on you said you had a
bunch of boys who are interested

845
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,040
in football.
So should we, we've got a lot of

846
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:47,960
boys in my classroom.
Should I just be then going out

847
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,760
and getting tonnes of football
books and assuming that's all

848
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:50,639
they want?
Exactly.

849
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:53,560
No, you want you want to expose
them to lots, but we're talking

850
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,239
about gateways of getting
children reading.

851
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:56,760
Yeah, OK.
You have to meet them where they

852
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:58,360
are.
You know, like, like people who

853
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,680
sneer audio books and they'll
sneer at the comic books that

854
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,520
I've been talking about all the
sneer at the non fiction

855
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,400
autobiographies of these
footballers.

856
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:05,800
And you know, and it could be a
girl.

857
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,680
Of course, I'm not making up.
But I'm just saying from my

858
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,000
experience that this was a
gateway for the children to get

859
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,280
reading more.
And we have to meet them there

860
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,640
to get them reading more first.
Because once that's unlocked,

861
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,000
you can shift them, you can
point them in other directions,

862
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,960
you can get them reading more.
But I, I ultimately I want the

863
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,240
children to read and me meeting
them where their interests are,

864
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,520
if that gets them reading,
that's the first part of my job.

865
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:29,400
So.
There's the other thing that

866
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,560
could have done with me as a kid
then you mentioned this earlier.

867
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:37,840
I think if some educators had
maybe just better fostered what

868
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,080
I clearly enjoyed, reading,
which was quite niche reading.

869
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:41,720
Teachers listening to I'm just.
A little bit.

870
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:43,200
I'm just saying.
Just saying, teachers, come on,

871
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:44,400
I don't enjoy reading now it's
your fault.

872
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,720
It's not if it is one factor.
I think if maybe there was a bit

873
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:49,680
more representation for the
stuff I liked reading in class

874
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:51,840
other than that literal one
science book that I remember so

875
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,120
well, I I might have picked up
more books.

876
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:55,560
I don't know, maybe.
Interesting.

877
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:57,680
Let's go to the last one then.
Something that people might be

878
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,480
talking about a lot and thinking
about if we've got this

879
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,080
decreased massive interest in
reading and people aren't

880
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,000
reading for enjoyment as much as
possible, what's changed in the

881
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:07,720
last 20 years?
I'm just gonna check my phone.

882
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:08,720
Hang on.
Have a look.

883
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:10,680
I don't know, let me just get my
iPad where I've got my notes for

884
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,880
this podcast.
I think what I'll do that thing

885
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,240
that we always do when, when I
pick up my phone to do one thing

886
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:16,760
and I immediately get distracted
by other things.

887
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,080
And then suddenly I'm on just
doing reals.

888
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,200
I'm scrolling and oh, I just
actually opened it to check an

889
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:21,720
e-mail to see if an Amazon
delivery was on the way.

890
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,840
And now I'm suddenly on Tiktok.
And you spent 15 minutes doing

891
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,160
anything but put your phone down
and go, what was I doing?

892
00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:29,720
What was, I think, Oh yeah.
And then you do it again.

893
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,040
We joke about it because we do
it and it's and it's madness and

894
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,240
we're adults, children.
I just, it's going to sound

895
00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:39,800
really boomerish, I know, but
Greens, no.

896
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,000
I'm.
Going to be really specific

897
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,880
because I know you'll open me up
and I agree on this by the way,

898
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,080
because it's hard.
You've got to distinguish

899
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,520
between it, not screens.
Social media and particular apps

900
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,200
that children have access to on
screens are absolutely

901
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,000
destroying their brains.
Absolutely.

902
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,800
It is rotting their brains.
It is rotting their attention

903
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:58,440
spans.
Yeah, you, you forgot that I

904
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,680
started thinking about scrolling
through Tick Tock again.

905
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,240
I got hooked by the idea of
that.

906
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:03,920
I think we have to, we have to
explore this.

907
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,560
We have to go into this.
OK, Yeah, because you're

908
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,040
absolutely right.
And I think we need to make

909
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,440
clear to people our opinions as
well.

910
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,640
And it's rooted in research and
what people have seen.

911
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,080
As for ABBC article recently
talking about this, and there is

912
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,960
a difference and between
screens, not all screen time is

913
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,680
equal.
No, not all screen time is the

914
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,240
same.
We cannot just say screen time

915
00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:25,240
equals bad.
There's a lot of screen time

916
00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:28,880
that children can have which
enriches them and and improves

917
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:30,680
that.
Like, for example, if a child

918
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,640
has a Kindle and they read books
on it, it's not automatically

919
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:36,840
bad.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

920
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,400
And equivalent to if a child has
an iPad and they're scrolling

921
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,240
through Instagram for the same
period of time.

922
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,320
The algorithm and social media
and that whole kind of side of

923
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,600
brain rot.
And, you know, sticking the kid

924
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,560
in front of a YouTube, YouTube
video, which is an hour long and

925
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,160
has loads of flashing lights and
keeps them stimulated and almost

926
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,240
like a zombie for a bit because
you need to be quiet and just

927
00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:59,000
stay in the corner.
That is very, very, very, very,

928
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,040
very, very different to screen
time in other ways.

929
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,680
So just saying, OK, screen
time's increased in general

930
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,680
isn't that bad.
No, But why?

931
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:11,640
Why then has technology and
therefore children having more

932
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,720
and more screen time?
Why is that?

933
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:15,960
Impacting do you think reading
for enjoyment and the amount of

934
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,280
that children are reading?
I think it's the whole dopamine

935
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,120
thing.
In all, I think it's the whole

936
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,800
getting such instant constant
gratification in your brain

937
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,320
watching 10 seconds reel after
10 seconds infinite scroll.

938
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,440
You know, like people talk about
the even the person that

939
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,200
invented the infinite scroll was
like, Oh my God, what have I

940
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:32,680
done?
You know, I don't know how true

941
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,640
that is, but people say that was
it you you hear me?

942
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,440
What have?
I done what have I enjoyed

943
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,480
reading.
Invented the infinite scroll.

944
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,600
When I was a kid, yeah, I was
like, I'll show them.

945
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,600
I'll make nobody enjoy reading.
We live in a race to the bottom

946
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,800
culture.
You join me?

947
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,800
No, but I do think that's the
reason I think reading a book,

948
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,520
it requires a lot of attention
over a lot of time.

949
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,040
It's a lengthy process,
generally reading.

950
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,320
Obviously get short books as
well do.

951
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,440
You think that's maybe why you
tend to start a book and don't

952
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,120
finish it?
Do you think you're in that

953
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:06,440
world a bit or I?
Think even if it's because of

954
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,200
that, because I've always been
like that, even if as a kid I'd

955
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:10,880
I'd try and make myself read
stuff.

956
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:12,880
I I just get a bit bored too
quickly.

957
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:14,880
I think I think I.
So these problems existed

958
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,560
already is what I'm saying.
Yeah, 100% So, yeah.

959
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,400
But do you think that this kind
of social media algorithm.

960
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,320
Swiping has exactly because I
won't pick up a book now.

961
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,360
That's the difference.
I mean, in general for people

962
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:25,920
like this, this is what people
will say.

963
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:27,560
They'll they'll flip it and say
there's always been children

964
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,840
like this.
But but is I think it's

965
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,480
exacerbated.
Yeah, I think the stats we've

966
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,600
gone through a show if it's got
loads worse, I think they I

967
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,520
think there's every stat we've
shown, I think it shows that

968
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,320
it's always been a problem.
It's just got a lot worse and

969
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:39,800
we're going through the reasons
it's got a lot worse.

970
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,880
And I think it'd be mad to
ignore the fact that, you know,

971
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,120
once it gets it gets termed as
iPad kids, whatever.

972
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:47,840
You know, that whole idea of
like they're just constantly on

973
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,360
that they're not that, you know,
they could be reading, they

974
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,280
could be on a Kindle that looks
like an iPad and they're reading

975
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:53,680
and some some people go, oh, get
them off that.

976
00:39:53,720 --> 00:39:54,680
Oh no, that's all right.
But.

977
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:56,960
I'll screen time, but the vast
majority of it is vast.

978
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,760
Majority is not it's instant
gratification really like like

979
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,680
fast food for media.
Isn't it it it it's it's clearly

980
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,480
impacting kids attention spans.
You can see it happening.

981
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,400
Yeah, Yeah.
So does that match with what you

982
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:09,680
see over?
You know, we've talked about how

983
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,680
maybe you said there's been a
dip in reading for enjoyment,

984
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,440
but you said the last few years
even more.

985
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,840
So do you think that kind of
tracks with how much social

986
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,480
media is kind of and we're we're
coming from the primary school

987
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,640
perspective.
I must be insane in secondary

988
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:23,320
schools.
Yeah.

989
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,720
Do you think that it kind of it?
Correlates with 100% I think is

990
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:29,280
the reason, yeah, I think that
is the reason for the social

991
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:30,720
media.
I think there's all the other

992
00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:33,480
reasons we've talked about are,
are all factors into why

993
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,040
children aren't, you know,
generally enjoying.

994
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,440
Yeah, austerity didn't help.
Yeah, exactly that sort of

995
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,040
stuff, right.
You know, kids not having books

996
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:40,880
in front of them.
But in terms of the massive dip

997
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,960
I've seen in the last couple of
years, particularly of year 60s

998
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:44,760
where they are just that bit
older, like nearly at that

999
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,680
secondary school age.
It's it's yeah.

1000
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,400
Because they're coming in
talking about how they spent six

1001
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,040
hours on TikTok last night and
they're all, they're all

1002
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,520
competing on that screen time
and how all mine's 26 hours this

1003
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,880
week on TikTok and they come in
saying some kind of Italian

1004
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:57,960
brain rot LA.
La La La La La La La La.

1005
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,200
I don't what are you.
Talking about getting me to try

1006
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:01,840
and do it and I don't know what
it is I normally keep.

1007
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:03,920
I'm normally quite good at
staying up to date.

1008
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,440
I'm past it now.
I can't catch me out, but I know

1009
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:07,760
that meme.
I know this joke, I know this

1010
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,320
trend.
And yeah, they come in now and

1011
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:10,280
I'm.
I don't, I don't.

1012
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,400
Know I did have a moment with my
lot because even like that kind

1013
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,320
of brainwashed stuff does creep
around the whole school as well

1014
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:16,840
as soon it's in the school is on
the playground.

1015
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,920
Yeah, it's find it funny.
And I did think back to like,

1016
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,120
did we have that when I was
younger?

1017
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,200
Because I didn't want to turn
into that immediate kind of

1018
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:23,440
boom.
I was like, not in my day.

1019
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,680
We just sat and read because
obviously we didn't.

1020
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:27,840
But I just thought the crazy
frog.

1021
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,280
Yeah, it was a good day because
Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding,

1022
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,320
Ding.
Of course when we walked into

1023
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,920
school doing the crazy frog, I
can imagine teachers being like,

1024
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:36,760
oh, back in my day.
And having it on our Nokia

1025
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,520
phones as our ringtones, is
everyone playing it?

1026
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,240
Yeah.
Teachers must be looking at the

1027
00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:42,400
thing like ah.
But it is worse.

1028
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,240
Yeah, it is worse.
It's just way more.

1029
00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:46,880
It's way more spread in our
society now.

1030
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,240
And I just want to end on the
fact that I completely back a

1031
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:55,240
ban of smartphones in school.
I back that completely.

1032
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:56,440
Oh.
But my kid needs it for

1033
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:57,080
communication.
They.

1034
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,320
Go home, get Nokia, get Nokia
3310.

1035
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:00,920
Yeah, okay.
And you know, they don't need

1036
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:01,640
it.
They just don't.

1037
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:03,600
Yeah, they just don't.
If they're walking home, they

1038
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,640
can have a flip phone.
They do not need a social media

1039
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,400
algorithm in their pocket whilst
they're learning lessons in high

1040
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,440
school.
It's it's it's as simple as

1041
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:12,600
well.
My kid likes it at break time.

1042
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,200
Helps them relax tough.
Oh, well, I find something else.

1043
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,360
Yeah, they can do at home then.
Yeah, yeah, literally like it.

1044
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,560
OK, is the answer to everything.
My kid likes it, therefore it

1045
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:21,760
should be.
Yeah, my kid likes playing their

1046
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:23,480
Xbox at home to relax.
I'm not giving them that a

1047
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:24,840
school.
They're completely exact.

1048
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:26,440
I mean, in the form room.
You might get that in sixth form

1049
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,040
these days.
I hope you hear of it, but you

1050
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:29,400
know, no.
There's no money for an Xbox.

1051
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,880
Yeah, A. 12 year old though, no,
they're not having.

1052
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:33,600
You have to as well as
educators.

1053
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,320
Sometimes you have to just say
no.

1054
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,360
Yeah.
It's like it's not just parent

1055
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,240
rule.
No parent says, OK, my kid likes

1056
00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:40,400
this.
It's like, cool, I understand

1057
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,080
that.
But here are the reasons why we

1058
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:43,360
don't do it in this school.
Yeah.

1059
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:44,840
And that is the rule, and it's
as simplest.

1060
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:46,360
I'm sure your kid likes wearing
their own clothes as well, but

1061
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:47,480
we have a school uniform policy
here.

1062
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,360
It's a school.
We have policies and rules and

1063
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:50,360
you can follow it or you can
not.

1064
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:51,480
Yeah.
And as long as everything's

1065
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,080
backed up, I think it's
completely fine.

1066
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,080
Yeah, we've talked a million
times about how some rules are

1067
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,960
just a bit insane and how maybe
they're not rooted in reasoning.

1068
00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:00,640
But you don't have to agree with
every rule.

1069
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,120
No you can.
You are going to get scores with

1070
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,280
different rules and again it's
the same point.

1071
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,640
My opinion is if I were to run a
school you would not be allowed

1072
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,520
to have your phone on you during
the school day.

1073
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:12,320
You can come and put it in a zip
lock pocket.

1074
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:13,640
Yeah, I've seen that that's
quite a problem.

1075
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,040
Isn't it brilliant?
Because then you can have it on

1076
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,040
your way home.
I'm not meekly not going to sit

1077
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,880
and police you at home.
And what you should do at home.

1078
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:20,760
You can have an iPhone if you
want to have an iPhone, Yeah,

1079
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,320
OK, fine, go for it.
But in the school building,

1080
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:24,520
you're not having it in your
pocket.

1081
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:25,880
Yeah.
Yeah, it's happening and I get

1082
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:27,800
the pressures of parents.
I've spoke to a lot of parents

1083
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,440
who say I just don't want my kid
to be the only one that doesn't

1084
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,200
have the phone.
But I get, I get it.

1085
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,000
I know it's a negative thing.
I just don't want my kid to be

1086
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:35,440
the only one in the class
doesn't have the phone.

1087
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:37,440
So I totally get the pressures.
And it's like, yeah, OK, well

1088
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,440
let's just work around it then
by doing stuff like.

1089
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:40,720
That yeah, equalise it in
school.

1090
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:41,760
All right, fine, they can have
the phone.

1091
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,000
But here are some things you can
do.

1092
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:44,200
Here's some things we can do at
school.

1093
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:45,520
We can take complete control of
that for you.

1094
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,320
They don't have it all day.
Here's some other things you can

1095
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:48,960
do at home.
We'll be the bad guys, you know,

1096
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:50,680
we'll be about and you can get
home.

1097
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:54,080
OK, fine.
I can still educate and say why

1098
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,520
I still think it's a bad idea
that they go home and they send

1099
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,560
TikTok for six hours.
I think there's ways you can

1100
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,840
have smartphones and tablets and
technology that aren't going to

1101
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,680
brain rot your child.
OK, there's ways you can do

1102
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,600
this.
Not it's like we said earlier,

1103
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,600
screen time isn't equally bad.
When I was younger, I spent a

1104
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,200
lot of time watching Cartoon
Network, kind of a screen that

1105
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,120
was a screen.
It's just not automatically bad.

1106
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,440
But we have to have to have to
differentiate between what the

1107
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,760
algorithm's doing to our
attention spans for the children

1108
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,400
and taking away time where they
can be reading and finding books

1109
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,320
they love.
Bring back Simpsons at 6:00.

1110
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,800
That's what I'm saying.
Double on a Friday, double on a

1111
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:28,640
Friday.
Remember that?

1112
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:30,720
That's that was my that was my
screen time.

1113
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,800
And look how you turned out, how
you.

1114
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,480
Reading so maybe it wasn't bad.
So here's here's a question for

1115
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,440
you then.
Are are we hypocrites because we

1116
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,120
make social media content for
this podcast?

1117
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,200
No, of course we're not.
No, of course we're not.

1118
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,120
Like, even the idea of that
makes me annoyed.

1119
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,080
Why?
Because social media and content

1120
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:52,400
exists and you can be an adult
person and whether you think

1121
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,720
you've got a problem because you
spend too much on it or not, OK,

1122
00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:55,920
cool.
I can't.

1123
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,960
We can't not create stuff
because you might get a child

1124
00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:02,400
who manages to access it through
their home life and their their

1125
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,680
parents choices.
It's the same thing.

1126
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,400
Like, OK, is Quentin Tarantino a
awful hypocrite because a child

1127
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,600
might pick up a DVD at home and
put on the DVD player and watch

1128
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,560
one of his 18 plus films?
These things still can exist.

1129
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,120
And I think also our content is
very safe.

1130
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,640
We've talked a lot before.
If we if we're marketing towards

1131
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,720
children from this podcast and
we sit there and we do age,

1132
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:23,560
that's completely age
inappropriate.

1133
00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:26,320
That is absolutely our fault,
but it's not.

1134
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:27,240
It's not what we're doing at
all.

1135
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,840
So if we turn into KSI and the.
Start making YouTube.

1136
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:32,120
Yeah, like I, I've talked about
it a million times.

1137
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:33,400
I think we do a episode in the
future.

1138
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,640
I really do.
But when they are so clearly

1139
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:37,840
marketing towards children and
everything they do, and then

1140
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:39,760
they release a podcast and
within two minutes they're

1141
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,120
talking about adult content,
Yeah, I just think.

1142
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,600
You are at fault for that.
Yeah, like that is your fault.

1143
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:45,840
But that's this whole separate
conversation.

1144
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,000
I agree.
And it kind of goes back to the

1145
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,640
original question you asked me.
Am IA hypocrite for not reading

1146
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,760
at home whilst saying to
children it's really important.

1147
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,360
It's like, no, because I'm an
adult and I've got through that.

1148
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:54,360
I've it's different.
Yeah.

1149
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,080
Like they can both coexist.
And you can you can also think

1150
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,400
that you it would be good if
you, when you were younger, had

1151
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:01,760
a different outcome.
Yeah, exactly.

1152
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:03,200
Yeah.
It doesn't mean, Oh well, I'm

1153
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,080
like this.
There's the classic thing, like

1154
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,400
on a Tiktok comment sometimes,
well, I'm like this and it never

1155
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,960
hurt me.
Google, like great.

1156
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:12,760
Does that mean that it's just
not a thing?

1157
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,040
Then we just ignore that it's
reading for enjoyment.

1158
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,120
I watched 18 plus films when I
was 14.

1159
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:18,800
It didn't hurt me.
Yeah, well, you're leaving

1160
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,040
random tik toks on a comment on
a thing that you've never seen

1161
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:22,640
before, so it might have
affected you.

1162
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,720
Yeah, no, I agree though.
Yeah, it might not hurt someone.

1163
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,880
Yeah, cool might not, but yeah,
it does.

1164
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,760
But.
Let's play the game a bit and we

1165
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:31,840
can't just say, well, that's
that then I guess.

1166
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,760
No, there are lots of ways.
So let's just wrap this up then.

1167
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,080
What works when we're trying to
encourage reading for pleasure?

1168
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,520
Let's let's just bash through
some very quick ideas now.

1169
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,240
First thing for me is autonomy,
free choice, letting the child

1170
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:47,640
lead it, meeting them where they
are, and then going from there.

1171
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,680
If a child wants to read an
encyclopaedia because they just

1172
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,360
happen to have a real, real
interest in this, I don't know,

1173
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,760
it's an animal encyclopaedia and
they want to sit down and read

1174
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:58,600
it for half an hour.
Don't fret because they're not

1175
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,080
getting a whole different genre
subset that you want to in your

1176
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,120
head thinks really important.
They're reading crack on.

1177
00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:07,360
When I was a kid, I picked up
the newspaper and I read match

1178
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,760
reports for football because I
was obsessed with football and I

1179
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:11,360
was reading, reading, reading,
reading, reading.

1180
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,760
It's fine.
Whatever form reading comes in.

1181
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,200
Let your child lead you,
especially if they're a

1182
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:18,720
reluctant reader.
I'm talking about here, we're

1183
00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:20,960
trying to improve reading for
enjoyment.

1184
00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:25,200
Let them lead you to the reading
and just think, is this reading?

1185
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:27,040
It's an audio book.
It's fine.

1186
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:28,240
They're going to enjoy that
story.

1187
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:30,040
Cool.
It's a, it's a newspaper, it's

1188
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:31,600
fine.
You, you've read it, you've read

1189
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:32,320
the article.
It's all good.

1190
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:34,240
You're going to do that too.
They're they're going through an

1191
00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:36,200
instruction set when they're
building something in the toy

1192
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:37,960
set they've got and they're sat
there reading the instructions.

1193
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:39,760
Amazing.
They're doing a board game and

1194
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:40,880
they're explaining the rules to
you.

1195
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:42,640
They read it themselves.
Unbelievable.

1196
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,000
This is all reading and it
should be celebrated and not Oh

1197
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,120
no, you've not read Wind in the
Willows and The Lost Key of Beef

1198
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:50,360
and Chip.
It's fine.

1199
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:52,920
I don't know.
I think we should maybe put beef

1200
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,280
and chip on a pedestal.
I'm just, I think a bit a bit

1201
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:56,360
far over the bar with that.
One I'm.

1202
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:58,960
Sorry, I'm sorry, another thing
we can do a bit.

1203
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,480
A big win, shared reading.
And there's 22 aspects to this,

1204
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,600
like literally reading as an
educator in your in your class,

1205
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,920
you read into the class, maybe
even a child reading or in those

1206
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,920
lessons where you can get the
lots of children to do reading

1207
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:12,840
or guided reading.
So just sharing reading in

1208
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,720
class, but also like sharing
things you like about reading in

1209
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:18,040
class.
It's quite easy actually.

1210
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,040
I'm not I'm saying whip up a
display because I hate displays,

1211
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,600
but it's quite easy to have
somewhere in your classroom a

1212
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:23,960
place where kids write little
book reviews.

1213
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:25,000
It's a really cute idea.
Yeah.

1214
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,600
It's super easy.
Just post it notes.

1215
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:28,880
I I recommend this book because
of this reason.

1216
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:30,960
And then someone else picks it
up and you could, you can go as

1217
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,360
far down that fun Ave as you
want.

1218
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,280
You can have, you could have
different genres for this.

1219
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,440
And then people go to the genre
they like and pick up a posting

1220
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:38,560
note.
Oh, someone's recommended me

1221
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:40,080
this.
There's loads of little things

1222
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,760
you can do to share the love of
reading in a classroom, even if

1223
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,000
you yourself as a teacher are
not the font of all that

1224
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:46,840
knowledge.
The kids are reading more books

1225
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:48,160
than you are.
Some of them are, at least.

1226
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,440
Yeah, most, yeah, probably are
realistically like, at least as

1227
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:53,960
a collective, they're reading.
They're, you know, 32 kids in

1228
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:55,960
the class and majority of them
are reading a book.

1229
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,880
Hopefully all of them.
Like there's so much content and

1230
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,760
knowledge there for them to get
out and and recommend to each

1231
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,080
other.
So yeah, just foster this idea

1232
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:04,640
of sharing reading in the
classroom.

1233
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,080
And the last point I think is
the hardest.

1234
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,800
I think those two are things we
can do very quickly, but we have

1235
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,160
to build back up that culture of
home reading.

1236
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,720
But you spoke about it yourself.
You're in a family who are very

1237
00:49:14,720 --> 00:49:17,400
supportive, very loving family,
no issues at all.

1238
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,080
But reading just wasn't on that
pedestal.

1239
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,160
It just wasn't there.
And a little bit more in my

1240
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,000
house it was.
And again, if I track how much

1241
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:25,880
I'm reading now is an adult
compared to you, I read more

1242
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:27,640
than you.
Is is there a link there?

1243
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,760
Probably, probably.
And it's really important to

1244
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,360
foster that culture and it comes
from lots of places.

1245
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,200
And I think it's
counterproductive sometimes to

1246
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,000
just point at home and go, well,
you're not doing it at home,

1247
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,920
it's your problem.
Okay, cool that that can be

1248
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:42,880
true, but it's not helpful to
say that.

1249
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,000
What's helpful is to look at
maybe what the underlying

1250
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,400
reasons are.
Are the parents themselves left

1251
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,000
less confident of reading?
Do they need more support?

1252
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,880
Do we need to instil something
or places they can go?

1253
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,000
Do they even know where their
local libraries?

1254
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,640
Libraries have closed.
I think nearly 20% of libraries

1255
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,120
have closed since 2010.
So it's on the decrease, but

1256
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:01,440
there are still libraries out
there.

1257
00:50:01,720 --> 00:50:04,840
Even myself as a someone who
does enjoy reading, I didn't

1258
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,360
really know where my local
libraries were until I have my

1259
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:08,760
son.
And I thought to myself, oh

1260
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,560
where is the local library?
It's a 2 minute walk down my Rd.

1261
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:12,320
It's lovely.
It's.

1262
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,000
Really nice and he loves it in
there and that's something I

1263
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:16,200
didn't know before I had my own
child.

1264
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,280
But you know as a teacher, it's
what came into my head.

1265
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,240
It won't come into lots of
parents heads to do that and

1266
00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:25,080
I've just got that statistic
here very quickly. 30% say

1267
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,000
reading is not part of their
family life.

1268
00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:28,800
That's three and 10.
That's a lot of kids in your

1269
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,760
class that's about 10 kids in
your class you think and reading

1270
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:32,920
is not a part of their home
life.

1271
00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:35,240
And if you just think how much
of an impact that's going to

1272
00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:38,560
have on their outcomes and is if
as schools, we are really,

1273
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:40,480
really worried and the only
thing that's what's important is

1274
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,080
test results.
And we talk about how ridiculous

1275
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,000
that mentality is.
But if that is how your school

1276
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:48,120
is, it doesn't make a difference
in this respect because that's

1277
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,920
going to impact those scores.
So even if you need to meet your

1278
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,040
senior leadership team there,
because all they care about is

1279
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,080
the Sats, this is going to also
have the impact there as well.

1280
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,840
It's not, it's not either or
it's OK, but reading for

1281
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,240
enjoyment is really important.
So we foster this culture at

1282
00:51:01,240 --> 00:51:03,080
home.
It's going to impact our scores

1283
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:04,520
anyway.
So it's still going to be a good

1284
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:05,160
thing.
Yeah, I agree.

1285
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,880
And we are a society in the day,
and when we help in lots of

1286
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:09,600
ways, a society helps people in
lots of ways.

1287
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,120
It's not condescending.
Like I think sometimes people

1288
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:13,040
think that, oh, it's
condescending.

1289
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:14,720
Tell parents what to do.
It's not telling parents what to

1290
00:51:14,720 --> 00:51:16,000
do.
It's just keeping people

1291
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:17,440
informed.
Oh, yeah, local libraries around

1292
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:18,400
here.
Or did you know you can get this

1293
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:19,520
deal?
Or did you know you can do this?

1294
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,040
Yeah.
Is it condescending for a doctor

1295
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:22,440
to say you should lower your
blood pressure?

1296
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:24,200
Of course it's not
condescending.

1297
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:26,320
No.
It's just a fact of life that if

1298
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,680
we do make these small changes,
build habits, you are more

1299
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,360
likely to have a more positive
outcome in the end.

1300
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:34,080
So of course we should do this
was.

1301
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,040
It condescending for the
government 20 years ago to set

1302
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:40,120
up as a Sure Start centres to
help. 20 years ago, this kind,

1303
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,240
yeah, yeah, it was way better.
Is that it's a New Labour thing.

1304
00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:45,800
It was like it was a long time
ago.

1305
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,640
And but you're right though I'm
nitpicking here, but it was when

1306
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,000
we were kids we benefited from.
Yeah, because in my head I was a

1307
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,400
little kid 20 years ago.
I'm actually like mid. 30s Yeah,

1308
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:56,200
you.
It doesn't matter.

1309
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:57,800
Don't read it.
Don't worry, I don't. 20 for

1310
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,320
pleasure. 20 plus covering my.
Age yeah do you know I'll read

1311
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,040
for pleasure.
You're best difficult look in

1312
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,480
1980s.
Whoa, whoa, absolutely not.

1313
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:08,960
Don't even listen to who are.
I think if you're calling

1314
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,560
yourself old, sorry guys, sorry
guys.

1315
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,680
But yeah, in general, I think
the reason we're passionate

1316
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,160
about this is reading for
pleasure.

1317
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:21,360
Whether we personally spend lots
of our time doing it or not, we

1318
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,520
see the impact it has on the
outcomes of children and we want

1319
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:26,520
the best for our kids.
So whenever we're talking about

1320
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:27,720
this, we're not being
condescending.

1321
00:52:27,720 --> 00:52:29,440
We're not trying to point the
finger and blame anyone.

1322
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,720
We are simply saying a fact,
which is that if a child enjoys

1323
00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:36,080
reading, they will become better
at reading than they were

1324
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,840
beforehand, and that is a good
thing.

1325
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,360
So we need to try and facilitate
that as much as we can.

1326
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:42,520
Absolutely.
We've talked about lots of

1327
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,840
reasons why and hopefully some
of those things are useful for

1328
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,200
you as an educator, as a parent.
Whoever you are listening to

1329
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,000
this podcast and whoever you are
listening to this podcast, you

1330
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:52,400
can absolutely leave us a
review.

1331
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,000
I think so.
I think you should reading for

1332
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,480
enjoyment or I'm going to read
the menu that says rating and

1333
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:59,800
I'm gonna read the stars.
Read all five of them I I.

1334
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:01,880
Don't think guys, it was a
review already helps us share

1335
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,160
this podcast with someone who
you might think will find it

1336
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,400
used for, and we'll catch you
next week for another one.

1337
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:07,800
See you then.