Ep 122: The New Writing Framework: A Force For Good Or Bad?

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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to another episode of Teach

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Sleep Repeat.
My name is Dylan.

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And my name's Hayden.
And this week we're going to be

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diving into the brand new
writing framework.

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We're going to look at some of
the social media controversy

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around it.
And then talking to Jane

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Considine who is a real positive
voice for this framework who

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thinks it can have a massive
impact on writing in schools.

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As always, if you enjoy the
episode, leave us a review.

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It really helps us out and get
in touch on our socials.

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But first, Dylan's been rooting
around his teacher cupboard, and

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he's found some goodies.
Firstly, first thing I want to

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mention is this mug, OK?
Yeah, found it in my cupboard in

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that I was given it this week
and then I put it in my cupboard

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and then I realised the day
after I've got to clear this

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cupboard because I am not
teaching in this room anymore.

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Next year I cleared it.
Look at this.

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Now, anyone who is listening to
this podcast and doesn't have

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the absolute joy of watching us,
I'm holding up a mug right now

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which has Teach the Repeat Mine
and Hayden's face on it our

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little cover.
And it was given to me by a girl

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in my class who not only came in
and gave me this lovely gift

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with a lovely card that was so
nice and thoughtful, but brought

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in two mugs.
And do you know who the other

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mug was for hating?
You do.

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I do know because it was for me.
I couldn't believe it.

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I I've never even met this
child, really.

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I've probably seen them around
school and suddenly they give me

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a present.
I was like, oh, what's this?

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This is amazing.
I I cracked up.

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Yeah, when I opened that, like,
bearing in mind this is just a

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little child from your class and
she's like, beaming smile.

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Her parents obviously love the
podcast.

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Right, shout out to them.
I mean, I, I, they, they might

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love it, they might hate it, I
don't know, but they've got a

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nice little mug with a Teacher B
on it.

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It's amazing, I must say, as a
teacher, I am very grateful for

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all the gifts that we get.
You know, I'm not going to sit

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here and say one gift's better
than the other.

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We get mugs before best teacher
ever.

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It's so nice, so lovely.
But there was just something

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about this one that I just
thought was so funny to me

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because there's no way the child
listens to the podcast.

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It's just the parent full on
just thinking what's a nice

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gift?
And I really, really appreciate

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it.
So from now on in the podcast,

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this will be around OK.
At the minute I don't really

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drink hot drinks.
No.

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So it's filled with Fanta I.
Wasn't going to expose you, but

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I'm glad you've gone there.
I don't mind.

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But I'm going to is it every
single time and it'll be like a

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little trinket.
Now I've been teaching for

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nearly a decade, so obviously my
cupboard is just full of random

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stuff.
The first story I wanted to talk

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about this week was I love the
end of the year because we

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always have work experienced
children in and our deputy head

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has a simple rule which is we'll
have as many work experience

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children in as they want to come
from secondary school, but

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they're all ex students.
Yes.

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So every single work experienced
child who comes in 14/15/16 is a

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child who previously came to the
school.

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Now obviously for the first few
years of my career that was

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lovely, but they weren't
children I knew.

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No, at this point in my career I
know every single one of them.

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So this week we had multiple ex
students come back and, and one

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of them came up to me and I
recognised his face immediately

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and I was like, I recognised
this face and he looked at me as

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if to say come on, what's my
name then?

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And I was like, Oh no, I pride
myself on being able to remember

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the names of these children when
they come back and I couldn't

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remember.
And then I thought to myself, Oh

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no, I'll score.
There's a visitor badge and

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there's a little little name bag
there.

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So I just had a little look.
I was like, oh, it's you and I,

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And I couldn't believe it
because it's so strange when you

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see a child who's grown up
because they look the same but

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completely different.
Yeah, it's the hair.

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It's the hair that always gets
me because quite often when

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you're younger, you quite often
have blonde hair.

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I I know it's a silly thing, but
a lot of children have much

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blonder or lighter.
Hair.

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And then when you get older, it
just tends to happen.

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Your hair gets darker and that
just throws me off every time

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with the face, you know, you can
get it.

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However, I, I was a bit more
proud to say that obviously I

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also taught these these these
work experienced students.

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And when I saw a few in the
corridors full named them

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straight away.
I was like, hey, it's full name.

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Hey, it's full name.
And they were like, wow, you

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must be the best teacher in the
school.

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You remember my full name, Not
like Mr. Price, He's so

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horrible.
He didn't even my full name.

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He had to look at my badge to
work out who I was.

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And I was like, yeah, that's
just who I am.

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That sounds like a completely
natural and definitely

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conversation that happened that
definitely existed.

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But anyway, in my cupboard, I
this is the ultimate coincidence

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I was clearing out and I found,
you know, one of those old

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sample sheets of class photos.
Oh, yeah, yeah.

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So I found a class photo from
2019.

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So six years ago when I taught
these children in Year 5.

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And I found I was like, no way
have I found this with a couple

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of them in it.
And I went to show them and you

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do their face like, you know,
when they see themselves as

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younger children.
And then I was there and I was

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ready for the ultimate rinse
from my children because they

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were in my class.
So in my class with the work

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experience children and I found
this.

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And then obviously my whole your
class, like can I get up and

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see?
I'm like, yeah, of course you

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can.
Come on.

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And I was ready though, because
obviously I'm six years younger.

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I look a bit different, a little
bit trimmer, a little bit less

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grey in the beard.
OK.

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Yeah, so I'm a little bit
different, OK.

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But they all, all of them said
you look just the same.

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And I was, I was honestly like
wearing that like a badge of

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honour.
How often does a kid say you

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look the same?
It's because we finally hit that

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period in life.
Well, you do just kind of look

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the same for quite a long time.
You do, You kind of do.

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And to be fair with you, you
haven't looked the same since

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you're about 12.
Like you, you were that kid at

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school that was rocking a beard
at like what?

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Everyone else is like just
starting puberty and you're just

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walking around with a beard.
Like I'll always, I'll always

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remember someone tell someone
told me when I was younger,

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you're going to look 27 for
about 15 years.

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And they were absolutely right.
I'm just waiting to dip over

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into that next period.
I'm starting to because I get

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the grades of my beard and
stuff.

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I'm starting to enter that next
phase of how I look, which is

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definitely just an old man.
I had a similar experience when

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I was 23 and I and I first
started to shave my hair.

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Someone said you are going to
look 50.

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For.
About 15 years and I was like,

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oh, that's weird because in 15
years I still won't be 50,

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though that's funny, isn't it?
Then you look, then you'll look

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60 and you'll never catch up.
You'll never get it will never

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be the same again.
Never.

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Yeah.
Cheers, guys.

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No, but, but yeah.
So I was clearing up my

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cupboard, fan of random stuff as
you do.

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Like I found like old superhero
like displays I used to make

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that were laminated.
And my first thought was I used

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to do so much extra.
I used to do so much extra

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stuff.
And it was.

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And it did just remind me like
it was really nice for the kids

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and it really did encourage
them.

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And I do think that's where
those kind of things have a

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place because I remember having
that little maths group like 6-7

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years ago who needed that boost
at their times tables and seeing

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themselves as a superhero on the
board and moving up different

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times tables.
It did encourage some of them.

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I, I think looking back, I'm
like, at this point, I can

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encourage children in different
ways, which doesn't mean I sit

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there laminating a Saturday
evening, right.

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So, but I understand why people
when I say things like don't do

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that, don't do that.
I kind of get the push back a

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bit from teachers who are just
like, it is nice though.

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And I just want to, yeah, where,
where do you stand on that?

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Like it did make me think, do we
push too much to absolutely not

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do anything ever?
Or do you think we need to be a

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bit more clearer of people as to
say, well, yeah, of course you

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can.
I hope not.

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I think if people really listen
to our podcast, right, if you

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just listen to a couple of sound
bites on Instagram or something,

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you might you might get maybe a
a miss, you might misinterpret

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what we're saying.
I feel like our message is, is

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quite clear, which is you don't
actually have to do these things

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to be a good teacher.
Like you kind of just said it

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then it is genuinely nice to
make those displays and make

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those things.
It is nice.

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And it probably is a bit nicer
than not doing it.

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Yeah, but it's not like a
completely linear scale of, oh,

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therefore if you do them, you
are literally better than the

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person that doesn't do them.
That's not how it works because

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you can inspire children in
different ways.

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So that's the only message I'd
really want to get across.

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I think about going home and
doing this extra stuff because

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not everyone can.
And we shouldn't be pushing a

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culture.
That's what we always fight back

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against.
We shouldn't be pushing a

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culture of you have to do it to
be a good teacher.

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You know, you're on this
pedestal if you go home and

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Marty yourself and working every
evening because you know what?

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Most people get to the point in
their life, but they just can't

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do that anymore.
I certainly used to do it.

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I don't do it anymore or I'm not
a worst teacher because of it.

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I hope not.
I find it a real shame and I do

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find it a bit frustrating when
it takes, for example, a huge

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life change for someone to see
that like for example, having

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children.
A lot of people, and I've seen

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it happen who are almost like
down that road of no, we all

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should do this.
Come on, guys, it's teaching,

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it's a vocation, it's our lives.
We should do it.

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Who after having children
completely flip and change their

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mind.
And I understand why they flip

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and change their mind and then
and then they say, no, look, OK,

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I don't have the time anymore.
I'd rather spend the time with

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my family than doing this.
And I understand now what people

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meant when they said, oh, gosh,
I get it.

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When you can't do it anymore.
It kind of frustrates me that it

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takes that to happen to you to
understand that that's a thing

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in real life that affects other
people.

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And I just think a little bit of
empathy, right, If we just have

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the baseline of it obviously
doesn't affect how much of a

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good teacher you are.
And it's obviously fine to do.

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That's a nice, you know, middle
ground, I think.

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And it doesn't matter what your
home life is.

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It doesn't matter if you've got
kids or not.

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I really, really, really dislike
it when colleagues who have

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children and I include myself in
that now are seen as, oh, it's

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OK, you don't have to do it.
You've got a kid.

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And then the onus switches on
the other people who don't.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, I think that's completely

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unfair.
I think that's completely wrong.

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And I think the kind of attitude
of, OK, let's just have a

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baseline that this is extra and
it can be nice and it can be

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lovely and it can be good for
the children, but it can also be

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extra.
Volunteering down at the soup

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kitchen is lovely.
It's a really nice thing to do.

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And I think if you go down to a
food bank and help people out,

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00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,720
you're an amazing person, but
you're not a bad person if you

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00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:55,840
don't.
Yeah, right.

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00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,160
And I think it's the same kind
of logic here of you're not a

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00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,640
bad teacher if you don't know,
like, let's not actually just

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00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,760
say, oh, it's part of the job
because it just isn't.

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00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,480
And a little bit of empathy, I
think, to people's decisions and

230
00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,600
life choices, I think goes a
long way.

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00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,520
And if we just separate out, I
guess what I'm doing here is

232
00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,200
justifying why I stopped doing
superhero.

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00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,240
Yeah, this is a really long
winded way of saying I couldn't

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00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,800
bother to marinate superheroes
anymore and put them on a wall

235
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:21,360
and tell kids that they can do
their timetables.

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00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:22,920
So, yeah, well done.
Dylan, you're a terrible

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00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:24,160
teacher.
I think that's what we've

238
00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:25,880
established here.
Everything you've just said, all

239
00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:27,480
the sentiment and just go back
to.

240
00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,640
Yeah, but you didn't do it, so
you are just worse, right?

241
00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:31,800
Dylan, I want to know what's in
your cupboard because I can see

242
00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,880
a few things here.
I am quite curious as to what

243
00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:35,680
you've got.
So I brought a few things with

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00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:37,440
me because obviously all the
funny bits were there.

245
00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,320
I found an inflatable Flamingo,
for example, like you know, that

246
00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,200
was and the kids quite enjoyed
actually me show.

247
00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:44,720
I don't know.
Okay, I don't know.

248
00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:45,960
I think it's my job shares
actually.

249
00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:48,560
So because you got a job share,
we got doubled the little

250
00:09:48,560 --> 00:09:51,800
trinkets and little things also
found like an old like bottle of

251
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,320
water, right, that I was looking
for and it had water in it,

252
00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,880
right?
It's like bottle and on.

253
00:09:57,880 --> 00:09:59,600
I remember buying that like 4
years.

254
00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,200
Ago.
Oh no, that's disgusting.

255
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:02,920
Yeah, that's disgusting.
The water was fine.

256
00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:03,720
It's water.
Oh, was it?

257
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:04,320
Did you drink?
It did.

258
00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:06,040
You no, of course it didn't.
It's been there four years.

259
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,480
Of course it didn't.
So you, you found a little bit

260
00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,480
of something in the back which
maybe shouldn't have been there.

261
00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:11,960
A few little treats, a few
little treats.

262
00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,120
But what I did find was a whole
tray of books, right.

263
00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,880
And obviously as teachers, we
love books and it really brought

264
00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,440
back memories and, and, and I
didn't even know these books

265
00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:22,520
that existed, to be honest with
you.

266
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:23,880
And I thought, oh, this is so
nice.

267
00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:25,840
And I thought, what better way
than actually just to do a

268
00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,800
little shout on the podcast of a
few books that I love for one

269
00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:30,520
reason or another.
So I'm going to go through three

270
00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,560
of them right now.
This first book, it's called The

271
00:10:33,560 --> 00:10:36,800
House with Chicken Legs by
Sophie Anderson, and this was a

272
00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,040
book that reminds me of COVID
lockdown.

273
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:40,960
And you might be thinking, why
is that a good thing, Dylan?

274
00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:42,360
I'm thinking, why is that a good
thing, Dylan?

275
00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,360
Yeah.
And the reason why it's a really

276
00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,480
positive memory for me is
because this is the book that I

277
00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,360
read to the year sixes when they
returned in COVID year.

278
00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,640
So you might remember that when
COVID first first happened,

279
00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:01,000
March 2020, schools closed,
obviously, but then the year 6

280
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,720
children were invited back in
after a while of like the key

281
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:06,760
worker children being there for
the last couple of weeks

282
00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,480
essentially as like a transition
because obviously they're going

283
00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,040
to a new school in September.
So just the year 6 children went

284
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,160
in and all the teachers went
back to work and we had our own

285
00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,080
small bubbles of children of
year six children.

286
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:22,200
And it was to me, the ultimate
kind of example of how teaching

287
00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,680
can be absolutely amazing
because it was me and 12 kids.

288
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,000
So firstly, it's like like
smaller class sizes, which is

289
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,320
just so good.
But we had complete freedom as

290
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,320
well.
Like we had complete freedom

291
00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,680
because it was, well, this is at
this point bonus stuff.

292
00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:38,640
Let's get through what we can.
Let's do a lot of kind of

293
00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,800
pastoral stuff because it's
about transition.

294
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:42,280
So it was nice to work with the
children like that.

295
00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,160
But also actually I could really
help each individual child

296
00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,160
because I only had 12 of them.
And also meant we had time to

297
00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,560
just read for enjoyment.
And I remember this book, the

298
00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:52,800
House with Chicken Legs, because
it was quite I haven't, I

299
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,160
haven't been used to teaching
year 6.

300
00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,960
So I get a lot of lower school
books that don't really dive

301
00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,440
into genres and maybe you can
elaborate a little bit more

302
00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,120
about how you broach that with
children.

303
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,040
But this is a lot about grief.
It's a lot about loss, It's a

304
00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,120
lot about death.
And I think the the main

305
00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,240
character, Marinka, she is like
the gatekeeper to the

306
00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,040
afterworld.
So she lets spirits pass through

307
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,000
and kind of enter the the
peacefulness of the afterworld.

308
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,640
And it's all about like her
destiny.

309
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,000
Like she's, she's got this job
because it's her destiny.

310
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,960
It's written in the stars, which
does she really want to do it or

311
00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,480
not?
And it really broaches like

312
00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,040
basically death.
And I remember thinking, gosh,

313
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:28,800
is this OK for children?
Of course it is.

314
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,800
Of course it's OK for children.
And I read it to them.

315
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,160
They absolutely loved it.
They were hurt.

316
00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,280
It's a really good story.
What do you think about these

317
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,160
kind of like these genres
almost, or these themes that are

318
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,320
a bit more mature?
What kind of impact they had on

319
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:41,280
their children.
Because they loved it.

320
00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:42,560
I think that's exactly what
they're for.

321
00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:45,800
They are literally written to
help children understand these.

322
00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,240
Really like hard concepts in
life.

323
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,080
It's not like I I get that we,
we, we protect children.

324
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:53,720
I wouldn't read that to a
reception class because they

325
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:55,560
don't really would be able to
conceptually understand it yet.

326
00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:56,720
But yeah, that's exactly what
they're for.

327
00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,480
I think they're great books and,
and we often, I think a lot of

328
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,400
schools, we, we certainly do in
our year 6 curriculum we built,

329
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,600
we tried to build in at least
one book that does like approach

330
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,760
some of the, a subject like
this, you know, like loss or

331
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,240
death or something, something
that's just a bit tough where

332
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,960
it's, it's written in a
sensitive way for children to

333
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:15,160
think about it and have
discussions.

334
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,440
And I often have the best, most
mature discussions with the

335
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,720
children about these things.
I think that's part of school.

336
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,000
I think that's part of getting
ready for secondary school and

337
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,440
wider life.
Yeah, I find it interesting how

338
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,680
that just really stuck with me.
I saw the front cover.

339
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:29,200
It's crazy that a book can do
that.

340
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,200
And it did transform me back
five years to that point in my

341
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,880
career where actually I really
enjoyed that little bit of my

342
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,560
teaching, my teaching career,
and I really enjoyed that.

343
00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:39,960
But I always feel bad thinking
about how I did actually quite

344
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,320
enjoy the teaching element
during COVID because obviously

345
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,080
it was a devastating time in
general.

346
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,400
So I always feel really like,
can I say that I I enjoyed parts

347
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,320
of those because I shouldn't
really say I should have enjoyed

348
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,760
any time of COVID.
But I also had really, really

349
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,560
good experiences with the
children, I think because they

350
00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:56,160
were quite raw where it was like
everything was just everything

351
00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,360
was just chaos, right?
It was, there was no proper

352
00:13:58,360 --> 00:13:59,640
routines.
It was like, oh, we've got to

353
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,920
get killed children in all those
key workers in, oh, actually

354
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,920
we've got to do these bubbles.
Well, actually everyone's coming

355
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:05,680
back in for a day because Boris
Johnson thought that was a good

356
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:06,840
idea.
Oh no, no, we're going off

357
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,480
again.
And it was like, it was a bit

358
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,520
chaotic.
But I tell you what, I had the

359
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,640
realist experiences with the
kids like you did there reading

360
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:13,920
that book to them.
That's probably not something

361
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,000
you would have done if we were
just on timetable, you know.

362
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:18,920
Yeah, that's what gets lost and
that's where it's a shame

363
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:20,840
really.
And that's why I think I, I kind

364
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,360
of hope during COVID that those
moments, we'd be like, Oh my

365
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:24,840
gosh, this is what teaching's
all about.

366
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,400
This is where it's unbelievable.
And I feel unfortunately, like

367
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,400
we kind of slip back into our
old habits of, of trying to get

368
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:31,680
as much done as possible all the
time.

369
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,040
These moments actually have the
biggest impact.

370
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,520
I'll say one more thing on
COVID, what should you get your

371
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:38,720
next book ready?
That was one of my favourite

372
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:40,960
findings.
And this is very local, so I

373
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,000
cannot actually make a huge
generalisation about this, but

374
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,000
it is just interesting from our
school was when I, when I had

375
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,480
the ES-60 that didn't take that
didn't take their Sats, you

376
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,800
know, it was cancelled because
they just missed so much.

377
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,080
We'd obviously done a mock SATS
at some point in the year

378
00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,760
leading up to it, just to get an
idea of just for our own sake,

379
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,320
data points.
They did really well.

380
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,760
And I remember being like, Oh,
that's funny because we didn't,

381
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,720
we didn't do so much formal
stuff, but we still taught them

382
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,440
obviously loads of stuff that we
think is important, like reading

383
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:07,920
books, like we've read lots of
stuff with them.

384
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:09,560
And we taught them the mass
curriculum anyway.

385
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:11,000
And they just still smashed the
test.

386
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,400
And I was like, Oh my God, look,
surely there's surely there's a

387
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,840
message here somewhere.
But, you know, maybe that was

388
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:17,520
just us.
Well, you know, SATS didn't

389
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,400
happen for two years and those
children are fine.

390
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,120
So I think it what what it does
show, whether or not you land on

391
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:24,960
the side of we should or
shouldn't be doing them or we

392
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:26,600
prepare too much or do little,
blah, blah, blah.

393
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,320
What it clearly shows is that we
don't need to do them.

394
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:30,960
Yeah, you know, we don't need
them.

395
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,200
Like, they might be good for
certain reasons, but they're

396
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,040
also, you know, having the view
that we should get rid of them

397
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,600
is also completely valid because
we have two years of data of

398
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,200
children not doing them.
And like you said, they smashed

399
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,280
their previous stats when they
did Marks and they learned

400
00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:42,640
stuff.
Still.

401
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:44,280
And they've missed.
Loads of school, right?

402
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,640
It was like.
Yeah, I I do think there's a big

403
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:47,720
impact on missing loads of
school.

404
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,080
But I what I'm saying, yeah, I
agree with you in terms of

405
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,000
currently when we were in school
all the time, it's OK.

406
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,560
I mean, it's OK to think that we
should maybe get.

407
00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,200
Well, the message it gets, just
to be really clear, I'm not

408
00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:58,200
advocating we missed those at
school.

409
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,560
The message to me was spending
10 minutes reading a book in

410
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,920
school instead of doing that
like 19th task in the end of

411
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,800
your curriculum or whatever it
is, you've done an hour and a

412
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,320
half of maths and you've got 10
more minutes.

413
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,120
You know what?
I think we just need to calm

414
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,960
down about it like it is OK.
We can actually allow children

415
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,440
to, you know, enjoy learning
sometimes and not and not be

416
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,440
trying to measure something to
the NTH degree and they can

417
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:20,920
still make great progress.
It's OK.

418
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,960
Well, talking about reading in
maths, my next book that I found

419
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,720
again transformed me back to
honesty, like the second year of

420
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,960
my career right at the start.
And we had a bit of training on

421
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,360
this and it was about using
books in maths.

422
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,480
And this one really stuck out to
me.

423
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,680
And again, I'm going to read out
the title 1 is a snail, 10 is a

424
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:41,640
crab.
Now if you are any kind of

425
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,880
remote interest in teaching
maths and you're a primary

426
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:46,680
school teacher, you will love
this book.

427
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,120
You will absolutely love this
book because what it is 1 is a

428
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,400
snail, 10 is a crab.
It's about number of feet.

429
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,840
And the amazing thing about this
book, I love books where I feel

430
00:16:54,840 --> 00:17:01,160
like you can pick this up in a
key stage one class or in a year

431
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,800
six class and make the learning
relevant.

432
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,520
So the idea is you've got 1 is a
snail because a snail has 1 foot

433
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,720
and it says in brackets this is
a snail's foot, which is just

434
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,920
the base of the snail basically.
And then it goes on say 2 is a

435
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:14,839
person.
So what do you think 3 is

436
00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:16,640
Hayden?
Something with three legs.

437
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,680
No, because that doesn't exist.
Hayden 3 is a person and a

438
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,240
snail, yes.
OK, so then we go to 4/4.

439
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,640
Is a dog good?
SO5 must be a dog and a snail,

440
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,359
right?
And you can see immediately if

441
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,680
you've got a maths brain on
thinking about early years or

442
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,960
maybe a key stage 1, how good
this is for odd and even.

443
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,160
Yeah, straight away, so good.
You can just really visually

444
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,520
represent it as odd is an extra
1 on the even and you can match

445
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,440
up the rest of the pairs.
But again, thinking of year six,

446
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,800
you can use this for algebra.
Yeah, you can very easily

447
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,480
represent numbers with pictures
here.

448
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,400
And I just think this was one of
my favourite lessons I've ever

449
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,880
taught in my year 4 class, which
kind of introduced the idea of

450
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,880
unknowns and algebra to them,
but in a way which is really

451
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:57,680
engaging for them because we
also read a really cool book.

452
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,160
If I remember rightly, it gets
to the point where 10 is a crab,

453
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,240
right?
And then and then it the book

454
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,160
carries on and it goes in like
multiples of 10 exactly.

455
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,360
And it even does like I think it
does the multiples of 10 like as

456
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:10,320
in like 3050 seventy.
And it still carries on with

457
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,960
this idea of it's it's three,
it's two crabs plus something.

458
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,320
Else, So it's more like it's
plus one crab.

459
00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:17,840
Yeah, that's right, yeah, plus
one.

460
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,920
So it's like, you know, you have
10 dogs, it's 40, yeah.

461
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,640
Plus a crab, it's 50.
And then you have 6.

462
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,680
You have 10 insects, it's 60,
yeah.

463
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,080
Plus a crab, it's 70.
So it's always that extra, like

464
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,240
1-10 or one extra.
I used this book.

465
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,400
I did it in year 4 because I was
with you at the time, but I also

466
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,920
used it a couple years, like
years later in year 6 class.

467
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,200
And I did like a really cool
algebra lesson with it.

468
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,760
And it was just, yeah, it's such
a good book to inspire children

469
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,040
to just understand things.
It's just fun, isn't it?

470
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,960
Yeah, it's fun.
Yeah, and it's just, it's still

471
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:46,280
math.
Let's just get this clear.

472
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:47,120
It's still math.
Yeah.

473
00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:49,400
You won't see in the curriculum.
Oh, you must read 1 as a sound

474
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,240
turns to grab.
No, no, no, no.

475
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,120
But it still explores parts of
the curriculum.

476
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,280
It still allows children to show
interest.

477
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,600
And actually, more importantly,
it really LED some good

478
00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,760
reasoning and problem solving.
Yeah, because the math wasn't

479
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:01,080
too tricky, obviously for a year
4.

480
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,440
I know they can count the legs
on an insect.

481
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:04,840
Yeah, I know they can count the
legs on.

482
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:06,840
What wasn't doing that?
We were exploring maths, we were

483
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,080
having fun, we were solving
problems and we were stretching.

484
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:10,880
It it was an inspiration.
It was an inspiration.

485
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:12,760
Exactly.
And again, that's the kind of

486
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:14,840
thing we can't measure that it's
not going to be on a Sats paper.

487
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,320
How many crabs in a snail is
that?

488
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:17,520
It's not going to be on a Sats
paper.

489
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,040
But the actual kind of, if we're
thinking about the aims of the

490
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,320
national curriculum for maths, I
think it hits that all the time.

491
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,080
And the last one, this one, the
book with no pictures.

492
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,160
Yeah.
This is written by No BJ Novak.

493
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,360
Why do I know that?
Name he is Ryan from the Oh of

494
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:34,840
course, yeah, BJN over yeah,
yeah.

495
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:36,280
So he wrote this.
It's called The Book with No

496
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,960
Pictures and again, you can read
this to any ear group and the

497
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,160
kids apps that you're hooked.
I hope it's just full of the

498
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,040
Office memes.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

499
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:43,360
no.
This.

500
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:47,040
This is all about how you're
reading it, and it plays on the

501
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,800
idea that as a adult reading to
the children, you just read

502
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,040
what's on the page, so there are
no pictures.

503
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:53,960
So it's quite boring.
It starts off so this is a book.

504
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:55,640
Yeah, it looks purposely very
boring.

505
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,080
It might seem like no fun to
have someone read you a book

506
00:19:58,080 --> 00:19:59,680
with no pictures.
And the and the kids at this

507
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,320
point are like, yeah, this is
this is boring.

508
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,320
Why are you doing this one?
It probably seems boring and

509
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,600
serious, except.
And then it goes on to explain

510
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,600
how the book works.
Everything the words say, the

511
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,600
person reading this book has to
say.

512
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:13,320
So the person reading the book
has to say.

513
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,920
And then as a teacher, you
start, you know, acting up and

514
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,400
you're like, Oh, no matter what.
And the kids are like, oh,

515
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,120
what's it going to say?
What's it going to make my

516
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:21,080
teacher say?
That's the deal.

517
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,760
That's the rule.
So that means even if the word

518
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,040
say dot, dot, dot.
And at this point, the kids are,

519
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,200
like, on the edge of their
seats, like, they can't wait to

520
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,320
listen, block.
And you just do random words.

521
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,200
Yeah, Yeah.
And the whole idea is what?

522
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:34,840
Wait.
That doesn't even mean anything.

523
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,440
Blurf.
Wait a second.

524
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,000
What?
This isn't the kind of book I

525
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,040
wanted to read.
And it becomes you narrating the

526
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,640
book, but in a way where the
children feel like you're being

527
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,360
taken on a ride.
Amazing, fun, really short read.

528
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,800
Get it for your class.
I I often used to read this on

529
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:49,960
transition day.
Yeah.

530
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:50,960
So a nice little thing at the
end.

531
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:52,200
Just have a bit of fun with the
kids.

532
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:53,720
It doesn't take very long at
all.

533
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,040
You can read it to any age group
in primary and they are hooked.

534
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:57,400
That's really funny.
That's really cool.

535
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,040
I've never seen that one before.
I've seen the other two, but

536
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:00,040
I've never seen that before.
Where?

537
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,960
Where did you find this?
I just, I don't, I can't

538
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,520
remember.
It's like I just just saw it

539
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,720
online.
I think I saw BJ Novak himself

540
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,680
reading it to a bunch of
children and I thought, this is

541
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,080
unbelievable.
And it often gets recommended.

542
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:11,920
And I can absolutely vouch for
that.

543
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,880
OK, Go and search on Amazon, any
of these three books you got The

544
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,280
House of Chicken legs, 1 is a
snail, 10 is a crab.

545
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,000
The book with no pictures.
Fantastic for your class.

546
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,480
Recently, the brand new writing
framework was released by the

547
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,440
government and it was put out to
teachers everywhere.

548
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,880
Obviously got access to it.
And we got a few messages

549
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:33,760
actually of people asking, are
you going to go through this?

550
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,280
And I said, oh, well, you just
wait and see because we

551
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,520
absolutely are.
So we're going to talk to Jane

552
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,640
Constein a bit later on from The
Right Stuff, who is a big voice

553
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,800
out there for writing in
general, and she's a big

554
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,480
advocate for this writing
framework.

555
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,800
And I think it's nice to see
someone who's so positive and

556
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,680
speaks so highly about the
impact that we can have on

557
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,240
children to improve their
writing.

558
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,200
And that chat we have with Jane
is going to dive into what

559
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,240
specific parts of this framework
are going to be important in

560
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,000
implementing in schools
especially, and why it can have

561
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,400
a real positive impact.
But I do think we'd be doing a

562
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,840
bit of a disservice if we just
rolled into it and said, yeah,

563
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,120
This is why it's fantastic
because a lot of the discourse

564
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:15,400
around the writing framework has
been mixed.

565
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,520
And I think we should start me
and you by just talking about

566
00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:22,440
the the early years.
So, so this was a framework for

567
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,960
writing and it was for the whole
of primary school.

568
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,200
But a lot of the push back and
to be fair, a lot of the focus

569
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,720
has been on early years,
foundation stage and getting

570
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,040
children writing earlier and
getting it right at reception.

571
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,240
That was one of the big lines.
What do you feel about that in

572
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,560
general?
I think, look, I, I think people

573
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:48,240
have understandably looked at
this framework and said there's

574
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,440
a lot of the stuff I kind of
thought already and there's

575
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,800
clearly a huge push towards,
let's just do it all a bit

576
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,640
earlier.
This is how I, this is how I

577
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:55,800
feel like people have
interpreted it.

578
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,360
Whether they read the whole
thing or whether, whether they

579
00:22:57,360 --> 00:22:59,840
just read that lovely summary
that came with it, I don't know.

580
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:05,760
And they said children at four
years old or three, you know,

581
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,720
four years old really, if that's
not in reception and not

582
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,920
necessarily going to be in the
right position to be starting

583
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:13,960
formal writing or handwriting or
spelling or whatever.

584
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,800
Like some people even saying
things like that, their bone

585
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,280
structure isn't even ready yet.
And there was that picture that

586
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,440
went viral, wasn't there, of
the, the, what was it like an

587
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,200
X-ray or something like that of
people's of children's hands?

588
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,320
And people are using that to be
like, yeah, so we absolutely

589
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,840
shouldn't be doing this.
We should just be playing.

590
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,200
Yeah, yeah.
Well, Cos look, play's natural

591
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,320
and and I saw, I saw one of the
push backs to that was about,

592
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,200
well, we don't stop children
from throwing a ball when their

593
00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:39,920
bones aren't fully formed.
That's a good point.

594
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,320
And and again, but a good point
back again was, yeah, but play

595
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,440
and running and throwing, that's
all natural stuff.

596
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,120
Writing isn't inherently a
natural thing we do.

597
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,840
All you need to do is watch a
kid hold a pen and you know,

598
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,320
it's not a natural thing for a
child to do.

599
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,760
It is learned.
And again, I think another

600
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:58,080
another point on that exact
picture of the bones forming was

601
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:03,120
that's used in in the dog world
when you mention how puppies

602
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,640
shouldn't be exerting too much
pressure on their bones and

603
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,360
joints yet.
And you need to look after them

604
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:10,520
and care for them and make sure
they're not doing too much

605
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,440
because it helps with their bone
fusion.

606
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,120
And everyone who's owned a young
dog knows that that's something

607
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:17,280
you have to really look out for.
And the whole point with that

608
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:18,280
person was saying, yeah, OK,
yeah.

609
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,000
But look, this might be not the
best time to be pushing when

610
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,040
children are still forming.
To be pushing.

611
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:25,680
This idea of holding a pen?
Sure.

612
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,440
And I'll be perfectly honest
with you, I'm not really sure

613
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,400
what the science behind this is.
Or even even like the example

614
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,640
you saying about playing is
natural.

615
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,760
I get the playing is natural but
is throwing the ball natural?

616
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,600
Like really so?
But you get some kids get to

617
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,760
year 4, Year 5, and they're
still having to learn how to

618
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,280
throw a.
Ball, I guess you're you're

619
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,720
right in that OK if I put out.
So I've got Rory, my son, yeah,

620
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,160
who's 21 months old.
And if out on the floor quite

621
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,080
often, he just has a bunch of
things out that he can play

622
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:52,200
with.
He's replay, obviously.

623
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:54,400
I might have an extra sketch or
something.

624
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:55,840
Do you know when you have a
magnetic pen?

625
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,920
Yep, that's on the floor.
I have some ball pit that he

626
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:00,080
jumps in and throws balls
around.

627
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,720
He will happily run around,
jump, throw himself off the

628
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,400
sofa.
Yeah, that's not safe.

629
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,240
It's natural.
So it's not necessarily just

630
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,720
because something's natural, it
means it's safe, and it's not

631
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,720
necessarily something is
unnatural, it's bad for you or

632
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,440
anything like that.
I don't think those lines are

633
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,560
always clear, obviously, because
if I left Rory to his own

634
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,120
devices, he'd jump head first
into the corner of the table.

635
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,280
So it's not necessarily just
because it's natural, it's.

636
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,840
Right.
He absolutely would.

637
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,520
But my my point is naturally
he'd go into the ball pit, he'd

638
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,320
jumped and go and he jumps in
and it's his favourite thing

639
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,920
ever and he just flies around,
flings things, picks up a ball,

640
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:33,400
throws it across the room.
That's a good point, that's

641
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,040
natural.
But in the same respect, he

642
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,320
walks over to a pen and paper or
the magnetic pen and he starts

643
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,040
making markings on paper.
That's natural to him as well.

644
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,200
And I suppose my point here is
if we're thinking about this

645
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:46,560
framework, firstly, it's a
framework.

646
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,040
It's not a curriculum.
It's, it's more like an, an

647
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,960
idea, you know, a wider meta
look at the science behind

648
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,120
writing and what might be the
best ways to approach it.

649
00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:57,520
The new curriculum's on the
horizon and I think a lot of it

650
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,040
will overlap because of the
people who've been working on

651
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,240
it, clearly.
But it's just a framework and

652
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,120
it's non statutory.
So I know it's going to be

653
00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:06,720
pushed and I think it could have
a lot of good in it.

654
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,560
I think it's a lot of stuff in
their school should implement.

655
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:10,760
But, you know, just take it with
a pinch of salt is essentially

656
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,240
what I'm saying.
And I don't think I get the

657
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,640
worries.
And here's my biggest push back

658
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,600
to it that just came to my head
immediately.

659
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,560
There was the, when it was first
released, I read through it and

660
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,200
I read the overviews and I read
the criticisms and I read the

661
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:29,760
pros and the cons and I, I sit
here, I think it's a positive to

662
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:30,960
be talking about writing in this
way.

663
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,360
I agree.
I think it's great to have

664
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:37,200
government written documents
saying writing is really hard to

665
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,000
teach.
I think teachers hearing that

666
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,760
that's a good thing because
quite often with writing we just

667
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,880
expect to have a fantastic
results immediately.

668
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,800
It is markedly harder than
teaching anything else in my

669
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,080
opinion.
So I think that's a really good

670
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,360
thing.
And I think having lots of

671
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:51,280
guidance and help is a really
good thing.

672
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,400
And I think the fact that they
did consult with loads of

673
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,080
people, loads of different
people, not one person, not two

674
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,520
people, loads of people who've
dedicated their life to writing

675
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,720
clearly I think there wasn't one
person who monopolised it.

676
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,040
There wasn't someone who took
over.

677
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,880
And it's just like pure greed
from them because they want them

678
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,720
to do what they want them to do.
It was grounded from what I've

679
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,040
seen in research, and it was
backed with voices of lots.

680
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,640
Of people, there are lots of
opinions from other people.

681
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:16,960
Exactly.
I think that's a really good

682
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,000
thing.
But you know, OK, here's where I

683
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,680
see it.
I think that's good, positive.

684
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,400
And I think I'll chat with
Jane's going to really highlight

685
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:23,480
that.
And I think people need to hear

686
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:24,200
that.
I really do.

687
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,480
But I still look at it and I
just think, look how many other

688
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,920
countries in the world don't
start formal education until 678

689
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:33,600
years old.
Yeah.

690
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,480
And are absolutely fine.
And if anything is thrived,

691
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:38,680
Yeah.
Where?

692
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,400
Really good point.
Where play?

693
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,840
I'm so passionate about play.
I feel like I'm not an expert

694
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,880
what whatsoever, but every time
I hear someone talk passionately

695
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,040
about how important play is for
learning, I can't believe how

696
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:51,600
quickly we take that away from
our children.

697
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,560
I can't believe how quickly
continuous provision is stripped

698
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,200
from our children and we're just
getting behind, behind desks and

699
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,440
seats straight away doing formal
work.

700
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,200
I think that I I don't like that
now.

701
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,520
And now I've got my son, I think
to myself, don't want Rory doing

702
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,400
that quickly.
I want him playing.

703
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,160
I want him to learn through play
because it's so powerful.

704
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,680
And those children in Finland,
Scandinavia, wherever it might

705
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,800
be, who start work at 7, I think
that shows.

706
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,320
It doesn't have to be that we
nail writing and get it right in

707
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,040
reception.
No, it doesn't have to be that

708
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,120
way.
But I'd be curious.

709
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,200
I reckon there's a chance that
we're being naive at that.

710
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,360
I reckon there's lots of facts
to think about.

711
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:27,800
Like firstly, culture in
general.

712
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:33,080
Like is it that the Scandinavian
culture is just richer and

713
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,880
allows parents to do a lot of
these things, maybe at home in

714
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,360
an informal way?
And the reason that they can

715
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,880
start at 7 is because they're
kind of already doing some of

716
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,920
that grunt work, that grunt work
at the start, and they're

717
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,520
already exploring with their
children how to write in things

718
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,320
and helping them with their
handwriting just kind of

719
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:48,760
informally rather than in the
classroom.

720
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,480
Like, I don't know, I don't want
to jump to a conclusion

721
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,800
basically that other countries
who start formal education a bit

722
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,560
later just because they get the
same end result.

723
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,440
It kind of proves this idea
that, oh, therefore, like, it's

724
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,480
clearly better just to let kids
play longer because I just don't

725
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:06,360
know.
Like, I don't know how many

726
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,240
other factors are in play there.
Do you think about that?

727
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,640
I don't think necessarily it
proves it's better.

728
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,640
I think it just proves that it's
a different option we can

729
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,920
explore and it clearly works,
right?

730
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,720
It might be better, it might, I
don't know, right?

731
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,720
But my gut instinct is that I
think it's better and I'm happy

732
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,240
to have someone come.
I'd love to have someone come on

733
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,560
the podcast from the early years
or who's passionate about play

734
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,440
to explain why it's better.
But my gut instinct as a parent

735
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,200
is that is therefore I'd rather
go down that route, OK, of doing

736
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,560
it later more formally and
having more time to play.

737
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:34,720
And that's for the culture
thing.

738
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,680
I I really, really passionately
believe that it is not down to

739
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,760
the fact, oh, they're Swedish,
so they do more of their kids.

740
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,480
Yeah.
Oh, we're British, so we do.

741
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,200
So we do less.
I think it's inherently down to

742
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,080
the structures of society.
OK.

743
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,400
When you get better paternity,
pay for the dad who can stay at

744
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,120
home more with their child and
support the mum more of their

745
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,680
maternity pay and get more time
with your children and more

746
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,800
support from the state, that is
going to have a knock on effect

747
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,320
where you can do more at home
with your children.

748
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,960
Whereas in Britain we are
sliding more and more and more

749
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,560
down the path of what we've got
to accept that I'm afraid that

750
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,600
most houses now are a dual
income, a household where both

751
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,040
parents have to go off from work
and yeah, OK, you're going to be

752
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:17,800
screwed with your childcare.
Sorry guys.

753
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,800
Do you know what we'll do?
We'll make reception writing.

754
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,880
Really good for you.
Then I just think to myself,

755
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,240
it's such a shame that we've
chosen this path.

756
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,760
And like you said, I'm not going
to sit here and say this path is

757
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,240
inherently bad, but it's not the
path I want to necessarily go

758
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,680
down.
I guess what it opens up is just

759
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,040
the idea that sometimes it's so
easy to be like, well, the

760
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,600
government said this is good,
they've got all the back to

761
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,720
research for it within the
constraints of our culture.

762
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,400
So this is the way to do it.
And it's like actually, but

763
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,240
there might just be other ways.
There might be other ways.

764
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,560
I think, I think this new
writing framework on the whole

765
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,920
to make it really clear, I am
generally quite positive about

766
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:47,920
it.
I think there's probably a few

767
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,600
things in there that people have
rightfully got gripes about.

768
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,280
But on the whole, I think this
is a, it's a really good

769
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:54,400
document.
And like you said, I want to

770
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,280
back this up.
I think it's a, it's a move in

771
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,640
the right direction that the
government are even talking

772
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,160
about or even taking the time to
gather loads of experts and get

773
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,440
people together in a room and
say, hey, should we like at

774
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,840
least try to address writing and
what we could do?

775
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,320
And they've come up with a
solution.

776
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:09,640
And it is non statutory, like
you said.

777
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,600
So, you know, I overall, I love
moaning, right?

778
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,840
We all have to moan as well.
You know, half this podcast is

779
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,000
us just moan about the things
that that we all want to talk

780
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,640
about, right?
But I do think it's good to

781
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,440
recognise that there is a
positive side to this.

782
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,120
It's not all bad.
A lot of people in line are just

783
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,520
being like, oh, it's just
terrible.

784
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,320
Like anything the government
released, there are some people

785
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,680
in a band where it's like
anything they say is

786
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,000
automatically by default, the
worst thing they could ever have

787
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,200
done.
And actually, if you just take a

788
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,960
second to look at it, there are
also some really good positives

789
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:36,320
from this writing framework as
well.

790
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,240
Yeah, I think that's I think
that's a great, great line to

791
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,200
kind of finish on and lead into
our chat with Jane, who who has

792
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,680
been involved in this, who has
worked with multiple other

793
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,080
people who, you know, full
transparency, she'll say

794
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,480
herself, she offers writing
training and it's part of what

795
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,480
she is an expert.
She's done it for so long.

796
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,520
And again, no matter which side
of the fence you land on, I

797
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,760
think this chat is really,
really insightful.

798
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,480
And actually, I think there are
two prongs that you can look at

799
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,520
it here.
One prong is like we can talk

800
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,680
about the scientific fact
research and what's good for

801
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,440
children's do in terms of
reading and have these

802
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,400
discussions about how early they
should should do it, how late

803
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:08,920
they should do it, why it's
right, why it's wrong.

804
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,600
I think the other part of it is
do you know what?

805
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,680
There are some amazing people
out there who are really

806
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,160
passionate about helping kids
and when you're at the forefront

807
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,160
of your mind is how can I help
children more?

808
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,080
I've immediately got respect for
that person.

809
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,400
Whether we disagree or agree
professionally, you'll think

810
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:24,840
there might be better ways to go
about it.

811
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,920
That passion, that's the first
step, isn't it?

812
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,760
And as professionals, we're
always going to disagree.

813
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,840
But I think having those
discussions with people who have

814
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,200
different views to you, I think
that's really powerful.

815
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:36,800
And I think that's something we
should do.

816
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,800
And we shouldn't just say,
here's the framework, let's just

817
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,520
digest it and that's it.
That's the end of it.

818
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,680
No, of course not.
I think we can do both.

819
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,240
We can say what the great parts
of it are.

820
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,640
We can discuss how we think
there are some drawbacks as well

821
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,440
and have professional dialogues
about it.

822
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,680
And I think what we're going to
do now, chatting with Jane, is

823
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,960
talk to someone who's really
positive about it and hear their

824
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:55,240
point of view.
And I think that's invaluable.

825
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:56,880
Yeah, stay tuned.
Let's talk with Jane.

826
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,360
We're here to talk about the
writing framework.

827
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,040
Great.
Thank you for having me and I'm

828
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,240
here to talk about it.
So excited.

829
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,560
Right, let's go.
Let's dive in because I am

830
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,560
really interested in this and
especially your views.

831
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,440
So let's start off with a
general question, I suppose.

832
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,880
What is your overall view of
this brand new framework?

833
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,600
What are the big messages?
OK, I am highly optimistic about

834
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:26,040
this framework, really positive
because any document that puts

835
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:32,240
front and centre a chance for us
as teachers and leaders to talk

836
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,040
about teaching and learning,
well that is ace.

837
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:41,720
And it gives us a a sense and
and you know, to be really clear

838
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,960
about what we want to do next
around writing.

839
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,400
I I love it.
And I think the main message

840
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:55,280
locked in it is that writing
needs to be taught, not caught.

841
00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:02,360
And we were given a lovely
phrase as part of the reading

842
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:09,080
framework, reading fluency.
And this opens the door for

843
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,600
children to be able to
comprehend words.

844
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,520
And now it is only right and
proper that we think about

845
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:23,159
writing fluency and helping
children make their own meaning.

846
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,199
Why do you think this shift is
significant then?

847
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:27,199
Because you're clearly
championing it in the just in

848
00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:29,239
the tone of your voice.
I can tell you really positive

849
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,679
about all of this.
And what are the implications

850
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,560
for the curriculum design if
this is this is the way forward?

851
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,560
It's it's built on the science
of learning.

852
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:44,639
So for us as teachers, when we
feel like it talks to us, it's

853
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:47,679
because we care about the
science of learning.

854
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:55,360
It was a broad and wide
collection of specialists and

855
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,120
experts.
This is collective

856
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,720
responsibility that writing
matters.

857
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,160
And we're we're all in this
together.

858
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,560
It has been transparent.
And these are people who have

859
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,520
dedicated their lives to
literacy and locked in there,

860
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,640
you know, and it's the opening
words of the framework.

861
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:23,800
Writing is notoriously
difficult, you know?

862
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:29,840
Yeah, Ronald Kellogg said.
It's the cognitive equivalent of

863
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:35,320
digging ditches, you know?
But it is hard, isn't it?

864
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:36,480
I think I wanted.
To draw on the.

865
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,160
On the point you just made about
all of these people who've

866
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,600
dedicated their lives to this
work have come together to put

867
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,120
something in a document that we
can, we can kind of at least

868
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,800
lean towards and read and, and,
and like you said, talks to us

869
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:53,160
about how to teach writing well,
because writing is really hard.

870
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,200
If I had to as a teacher, tell
you which part of my job is the

871
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,960
hardest, I would absolutely,
without a doubt, without even

872
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,040
thinking, say, getting children
to write well.

873
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,320
And do you think then that this,
this document promoting this

874
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,800
and, and putting, putting on a
pedestal, I think and, and the

875
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,440
government kind of pushing
reading and writing in general,

876
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,760
Do you think that this is going
to cause a shift then in

877
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,120
education as to how we're
actually teaching creative

878
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,720
writing now for the better?
Absolutely, for the better.

879
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:28,200
You know, this is not about
perfection, but it's about, you

880
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,520
know, our damnedest to put in
one place the science of

881
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,480
learning and, and kind of
opening a conversation about

882
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,080
kind of a pathway forward.
You know, I've been working with

883
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:49,440
teachers for 25 years, you know,
and I am an expert in teaching

884
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:55,760
writing and, and it is hard.
It is really tricky and it and

885
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,920
you know, to carry on almost the
analogy of digging ditches,

886
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:05,960
we've got to remember that if we
can break that hard ground, as

887
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,560
it were, you know, something
shifts.

888
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,640
You know, there's a mind shift.
And in this document, it talks

889
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,440
about a writing mindset.
You know, if you're digging

890
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,640
ditches, you know, muscles
build, the tools become familiar

891
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,160
and it at the beginning for our
little ones, God love them.

892
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:32,120
You know, it is slow and
effortful, but down the line, it

893
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:37,040
becomes rhythmic and fluent.
And this ditch it, it's we can

894
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:42,040
create a a channel.
Ideas can flow and then we're in

895
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:47,160
the realm of shaping something.
How exciting is that?

896
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,240
I love it, Jane.
You're firing me up.

897
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:50,760
Like I feel like I'm.
Getting I'm inspired.

898
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,200
I need to go do some writing.
He's going to let's go teach

899
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,040
some writing right now.
Absolutely.

900
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,440
But like, you know, you talking
about the little ones, it really

901
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,200
made me think.
And I think a lot of emphasis

902
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,440
has been on the little ones.
And let's just talk about

903
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,800
reception for a minute.
And, and those earlier years,

904
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,960
the framework sets out quite a
clear role for a, for reception

905
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,600
in establishing that writing.
Like you just said, if you get

906
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,000
it right from the start, you can
kind of build and build and

907
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,080
build and build, which is what,
how, how I feel like you're,

908
00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:16,720
you're kind of approaching this,
right.

909
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:18,880
So let's think about the young
ones.

910
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:24,120
What, what should great writing
provision look like in reception

911
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:25,680
classrooms?
Year 1 classrooms.

912
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,800
No job it is more important than
working with children in the

913
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,640
early years.
You know, we we need, you know,

914
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,840
not in a negative sense.
When I say this term enabling

915
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:44,120
adults, you know, enablers in a
positive way, engaging, you know

916
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:48,280
what I mean?
Engaging experiences and really

917
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:53,480
effective environments because
ultimately we want our young

918
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:59,240
children to in their voice.
We want them to have agency.

919
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,840
So they've got choices around
their ideas, thoughts and

920
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,720
feelings.
And believe you me, their their

921
00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:12,600
fragile journey into writing.
We've got to hold so sort of

922
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,880
dear.
It is so precious.

923
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,240
In fact, we've got to foster a
love of writing.

924
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,080
We've got to celebrate their
writing.

925
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,480
It's got to be joyful.
And we know we're living in an

926
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:30,360
era of word poverty that is
linked to poverty, but writing

927
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,840
is playful.
And, you know, and we want to

928
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,680
meet them where they're ready.
We don't want them at tables all

929
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:44,760
day, you know, no way, no way.
And it is vital that they leave

930
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:50,120
reception with with a with a
positive view of themselves as

931
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:55,120
writers.
White Broad in 2012, the

932
00:39:55,440 --> 00:40:00,000
educational psychologist tells
us you know it is at 5 if

933
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,560
everything's going tickety Boo
that you know children have

934
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,600
increased working memory to hold
an idea in their mind while

935
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,480
writing.
Because that's what we're trying

936
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,600
to do.
I mean, one way to say it, I

937
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:17,760
know this isn't really
scientifically accurate, but you

938
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:22,160
know, what's in your mind's eye,
what's your idea?

939
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:27,400
What's the pictorial form?
And writing is like breathing

940
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:34,160
that out to put in that image on
a page and then, you know, and

941
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,040
the readings, breathing it in.
Yeah.

942
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,360
Yeah, sorry.
Yeah, I, I love this analogy of

943
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,720
the the idea of what's in your
mind and the link between the

944
00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:43,240
reading and the writing.
The thing that really jumped out

945
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:46,640
of me from this, from this whole
framework, in fact all the way

946
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,000
through my reception, but
starting in reception

947
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:50,720
particularly, was that linked
to.

948
00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:54,040
Oral, Oral, oral.
Speaking, saying sentences out

949
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,680
loud.
And I suppose what do you think

950
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,120
that role will have to be in a
school from now?

951
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,840
Because I think teachers do it,
but I think it's sporadic and I

952
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,120
think it's kind of sometimes
we'll try it out or we won't.

953
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,840
It sounds as if that kind of
oral work should be centre stage

954
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,400
for everyone and fundamentally
part of how we teach writing.

955
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,920
Absolutely.
You know this, you know, we are

956
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:23,520
so lucky that Voice 21 was part
of the contributors for the

957
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,920
writing framework.
And we know glinting on the

958
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,240
horizon, we're going to get a
new curriculum and we also know

959
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,800
a beating heart of that.
It's going to be oracy good,

960
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,280
absolutely.
And talk needs to be elevated

961
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,680
and we've got to amplify,
especially in reception, you

962
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:47,000
know, their little mutterings,
their little moments, their odd

963
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,560
phrases.
And then we need to grow it and

964
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:54,520
build it and this other
recognition that, hey, you know,

965
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,000
this is hard for children.
Talk isn't just, you know,

966
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,000
you're chatting to your friends
and you can lob it on a page.

967
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,880
Yeah, we can if we're writing
dialogue.

968
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:13,120
But actually, you know, writing
has has a formality, has

969
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,160
cognitive structures, and it is
different from talk.

970
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:23,480
And so we've got to help them
talk in a way that gets them

971
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:31,840
close and very accurately close
to building sentences, you know,

972
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,840
and they need help with that.
And, and we need to not

973
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:41,080
sporadically, but model that in
a, in a, in such a, a clear way.

974
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,240
And actually, it's just not me
doing that.

975
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:48,240
That's, that's Mrs Gibb, you
know, in my room and we're

976
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,360
always there.
And I do want to just do a shout

977
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,880
out to my favourite film on the
Education Endowment Foundation.

978
00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:00,440
You know, there's lots of
guidance there, lots of mini

979
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:05,000
moments, you know, when we can
watch teachers in action, you

980
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,800
know, practically watch it and
diagnose it.

981
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,640
This is this is where we become
experts and and sharpen our

982
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,800
expertise.
And there's a film on there that

983
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:22,280
analysis talk in the early years
where we watch these talking

984
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:28,600
moments and we see really
skilled teachers locking in with

985
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,280
children.
You know, the eye contact is

986
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,320
just right.
They're giving them space for

987
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,520
their words and amplifying them,
repeating them, adding a little

988
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,520
bit more, you know, talking
tennis, talking tennis and

989
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,520
growing it.
And I Oh yeah, go and look at

990
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,200
films, you know?
But that's what I don't know

991
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:49,880
about anyone else listening
right now.

992
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,000
As a teacher, I fundamentally
found every single thing that I

993
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,640
picked up from my practise that
was good was actually mostly

994
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,800
from seeing the really good
teachers actually do it.

995
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,560
And I suppose we're going to
talk about modelling I think a

996
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,400
little bit in a minute, but I
think what links nicely to what

997
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,920
we're talking about now in terms
of oracy and then that link to

998
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:12,240
writing, I do think that links
nicely with dictation and what

999
00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:14,240
dictation might look like in the
classroom.

1000
00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:16,760
It's mentioned throughout the
framework as a core practise.

1001
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:18,320
What?
What then?

1002
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,600
For someone listening now,
thinking, OK, cool, I want to

1003
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:21,840
implement this, I want to do
this.

1004
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,600
It's embedded in the science of
writing.

1005
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,240
I think it's been really good
for my children.

1006
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,360
What do you think makes
dictation effective?

1007
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,240
And most importantly, I think,
what does it actually look like

1008
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:33,320
in a classroom?
What does dictation in an

1009
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,040
English lesson, a writing
lesson, actually look like?

1010
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,240
And how does it affect a child's
writing in a positive way?

1011
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:45,320
This is an Ave that we can
become more expert in actually.

1012
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,520
And the first thing I want to
say about dictation is I don't

1013
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,400
want it to kind of overtake
everything we do with writing.

1014
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:58,440
You know, I don't think it's
like the, the, the main thing,

1015
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:03,240
it's kind of part of a
repertoire of things we might

1016
00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:06,920
use deploy as it were, to
activate their thinking.

1017
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:12,680
Because of course, the main
thing we want to do is get them

1018
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,600
inspired, you know, and then
because they're inspired,

1019
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,600
because there's been this
concentrated, rich, yielding

1020
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,840
space to develop ideas, you
know, music, drama, watching

1021
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,960
films, photographs, books,
interviewing people, you name

1022
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,240
it, you know, we are excited to
write.

1023
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:35,240
We've got reason to write.
Then it's that intersplicing of

1024
00:45:35,240 --> 00:45:39,480
dictation.
And one of the ways I like to

1025
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,920
think about it is taking the
kind of cognitive load off

1026
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,520
children so they can, they're,
they're not at a particular

1027
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,600
moment worrying about a specific
idea.

1028
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,080
We can say, look, just
concentrate on your

1029
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,440
transcription.
You know, I want you to at this

1030
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,160
little moment, you know, and we
can make the focus different

1031
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,240
things.
Or if they're a bit older, we

1032
00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:05,080
could put them together.
At this little moment, I want

1033
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:09,600
you to concentrate on your
handwriting or, or your spelling

1034
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:15,080
or both.
One of the little sort of

1035
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:21,720
dictation devices I like to use
is it's called brave spelling.

1036
00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:26,200
So we're in a writing moment.
We've been really excited about

1037
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:30,520
setting this scene.
And this scene has got a moon

1038
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:35,800
and we've, we've got our ideas,
you know, flowing.

1039
00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:41,360
But now I might say to the
children, right, we're going to

1040
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:48,200
just have a go, almost like in
context to bravely spell 3 words

1041
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:52,320
with the same pattern.
And we know spelling is tricky

1042
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:57,080
when there is a double consonant
and all these words mean big.

1043
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:02,400
We're going to have a big moon.
And then we just gently put a

1044
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,720
little bit of sort of, you know,
do you remember these words?

1045
00:47:05,720 --> 00:47:10,200
We met last week, bit of
interleaf practise.

1046
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,960
You might have forgotten them,
but they're coming back, you

1047
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:20,400
know, Colossal, it's got a
double consonant.

1048
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,320
What is have a go.
We met it before.

1049
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,440
Massive.
It's got a double consonant, you

1050
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,720
know, mammoth.
So there's these little moments

1051
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:35,040
where we want them to just, it's
not about them generating those

1052
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,840
ideas.
They're having a go, you know,

1053
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,600
add a add a bit of a tricky
word, but it's a chance for them

1054
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:48,920
to work on their transcription.
I really like the whole idea of

1055
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,400
brave spelling.
I love that concept.

1056
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,560
And I think we need more of that
in teaching.

1057
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,440
And like you said earlier, we
need really, really strong

1058
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,560
teachers at those early years.
Because you're, you're kind of

1059
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,000
highlighting how, I mean, I'm
both inspired and thinking, my

1060
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,400
God, it's such a tough job.
It's so hard being at the

1061
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,760
beginning of that journey, like
thinking of reception, having

1062
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,400
all of these ideas up your
sleeve and being able to teach

1063
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,440
writing so well.
Now you mentioned spelling and

1064
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,080
you also mentioned handwriting
and I think we wouldn't be doing

1065
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,240
this conversation justice if we
didn't talk about this, right?

1066
00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:20,840
Because it's one of it's one of
the gripes that we've seen

1067
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:22,360
online.
You know, with there's always

1068
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,440
going to be gripes with anything
that comes out that's new,

1069
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:25,640
right?
But one of the biggest things

1070
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,760
was about handwriting and saying
how can we get this right?

1071
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:31,920
Because the framework is
recommending that we should be

1072
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,400
teaching formal handwriting and
phonics based spelling from the

1073
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,320
very get go at the start of
reception.

1074
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,680
So how do we get this right then
for children who develop fine

1075
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,960
motor skills at different rates?
Because we know that exists?

1076
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:48,400
Is it too early?
It's all about readiness.

1077
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:54,280
It's all about are they ready
for this and, and us as teachers

1078
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,720
being able to really tune into
the uniqueness of individual

1079
00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:00,760
children and what they need
next.

1080
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:06,040
I am going to push back a bit on
that word you kind of casually

1081
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:13,320
slipped in, which is formal.
You know, it's not about formal.

1082
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:20,920
It's about knowing the
sequential incremental things

1083
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,560
that children need next.
Because if they've got a smooth

1084
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:29,680
and efficient handwriting style,
then it can free cognitive

1085
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:34,920
space, you know, that is
absolutely critical.

1086
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:39,040
And you know, when they've got
their excited ideas about

1087
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,920
dinosaurs or Sonic the Hedgehog
or fork knife or, you know,

1088
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:48,760
spray juice.
Not everyone gets that joke.

1089
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:50,480
I got it, Yeah.
I've.

1090
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:51,920
I've got young enough brain to
actually.

1091
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:53,120
Get that stuff.
Yeah.

1092
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:56,240
Says more about me, Jane, I
think.

1093
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:05,960
You know, if handwriting is
slow, it can and it can't keep

1094
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:11,400
up with their thoughts and ideas
and they forget them before they

1095
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,080
put them on paper.
This can really hurt their self

1096
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,360
esteem.
So we're always making a

1097
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:22,200
judgement to know, you know,
almost like there's there's a

1098
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,640
continuum, isn't there?
You know, there are 9 stages of

1099
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,160
emergent writing.
And as a teacher, I know we

1100
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,800
start with sort of drawing and
then we move into, you know,

1101
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,720
like just Marx in general.
And then we move into scribbling

1102
00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:41,600
and then we move into like
almost showing little lumps of

1103
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,120
scribbles that show there's they
can, they can conceptually

1104
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,680
understand finger spaces.
And then we start seeing, you

1105
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:53,280
know, mimicking of letters ish,
you know, and but we get this

1106
00:50:53,280 --> 00:51:00,240
line so that we know when is the
timely moment to step in and go.

1107
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:06,760
I think you're ready for this
letter, the letter B and I've

1108
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:12,480
got handwriting patters.
I'm ready, you know, start at

1109
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:17,520
the top, go down slow halfway up
round you go.

1110
00:51:18,240 --> 00:51:22,200
Don't tell me there is a kids in
Year 5 and 6 who were doing B&D

1111
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,040
reverse.
I can tell you now, Jane, there

1112
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:26,880
are because I've I've I've
worked with them.

1113
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,920
But I think just jumping on what
you're saying, there's one thing

1114
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:34,600
I wanted to say as a statement
that I think your proof that

1115
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,320
this kind of positive, yes,
let's go and get it, let's make

1116
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,880
it amazing, can really inspire
children.

1117
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:43,120
And of course, that's one part
of it.

1118
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:44,440
This framework's full of
science.

1119
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:46,440
You know, you've clearly got
lots of techniques that you've

1120
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,480
learned over the years that
really embedded in children

1121
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:50,960
making progress.
But it does feel like hand in

1122
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,320
hand with that and with a
framework like this and with

1123
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,520
anything really that we as
teachers see as good practise.

1124
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,960
It does have to come hand in
hand with professionals who are

1125
00:51:59,960 --> 00:52:03,040
putting themselves out there and
and putting on that show and

1126
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,680
inspiring children.
Because to me, when I think

1127
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:09,760
about my background in maths and
leading maths, that's the one

1128
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,880
thing I feel like I want my
staff to have more than anything

1129
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,840
is you need to love maths.
You need to want to do maths

1130
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,000
with the children.
And when it comes to writing,

1131
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,040
yeah, it's really hard.
And you, we've just broken down

1132
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,040
5 different parts of writing.
Handwriting's one thing, phonics

1133
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:25,720
is another thing.
Reading is linked to writing.

1134
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,360
It's so huge.
But you have to go into the

1135
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,960
classroom and be the person to
inspire them at the front as

1136
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,440
well.
In AL's words, he, he talks

1137
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,040
about, you know, and this isn't
just about reception.

1138
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:42,200
This is about perception and
beyond, you know, we need to

1139
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:47,520
nurture them and welcome them
into a language community and

1140
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:52,000
they need to feel part of this
sort of this collective

1141
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:58,600
belonging about that writing
matters, that it cements our

1142
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:06,240
ideas in our long term memory.
And our job is to motivate you

1143
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:12,000
because but actually motivation
is born from success.

1144
00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:15,640
So my job is to make you
succeed.

1145
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:21,360
And I know the progression.
My my curriculum is designed in

1146
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:26,360
such a way that, you know, the
smaller it gets, the more

1147
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:31,360
granular it gets.
Then I know in a timely way what

1148
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:36,280
what children need Nets to make
writing smooth and efficient so

1149
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,960
that you can get to the joy.
Hayden was going to talk a

1150
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,560
little bit about sentence level
stuff because we've we've done a

1151
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,960
lot of work sentence level in
our schools recently.

1152
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,320
Well, the big thing for me is,
is you said the word joy, right?

1153
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:49,600
And it really got me thinking
about my next question.

1154
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:54,040
But is there you, you sort of
flitted around this idea that,

1155
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:55,480
yeah, we'll get to the joy,
right?

1156
00:53:56,080 --> 00:54:00,800
Is there the the potential that
with more of a focus on making

1157
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,800
sure those foundations and that
and that sentence level and that

1158
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,560
vocabulary, all of that work.
Is there is there a chance that

1159
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,040
teaching could become a bit more
dry, or a bit more, or a bit too

1160
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,520
mechanical?
Yeah, I mean, there, there's a

1161
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:20,840
lot to say about this, you know,
children being good writers,

1162
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:25,760
children being able to write
well, you know, this is not dry.

1163
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:29,240
There's a couple of things we
need to consider.

1164
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:37,320
You know, knowledge.
Knowledge makes for better

1165
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:38,400
writing.
Yeah.

1166
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:44,840
And if they're trying to write
with thin knowledge, that is

1167
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,160
also sort of interlinked with
the.

1168
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,840
So I suppose the dryness, if
they haven't got a enough.

1169
00:54:52,480 --> 00:55:00,520
So part of that is whenever they
write, whether that's the mess,

1170
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:05,320
the beautiful emergent, the
beginnings of the starting to

1171
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:09,680
find their voice, the more
complicated extensive writing.

1172
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:14,360
Wherever we are on that
continuum, they need to know the

1173
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:19,720
world of their writing and that
deep knowing, you know, hey,

1174
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,320
we've not come into this
profession to be dry.

1175
00:55:23,720 --> 00:55:26,880
This is where we have we.
We're not we.

1176
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:28,560
No, not at all.
Yeah.

1177
00:55:28,720 --> 00:55:33,200
Whoa.
We we are all creative souls and

1178
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:39,920
this is drama, music, film, This
is experiences, real and

1179
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,640
imagined.
It's books, it's oracy.

1180
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:49,800
And when we come to the teaching
of writing, it is about

1181
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:55,320
cognitive overload, that they
need a deep knowing, but they

1182
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:59,920
can't be overwhelmed.
And This is why our work needs

1183
00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:02,560
to be at the mastery of
sentences.

1184
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,880
And and it's it's mastery, not
mystery.

1185
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,560
You know, writing is a highly
creative process.

1186
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:13,680
And the writing framework.
I love these three little words

1187
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,040
it, you know, go and find it go
and find the gems.

1188
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:21,760
Actually, that's what I'm doing.
I've got me glittering girl

1189
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:26,120
Sharpie highlighting the gems to
be found in there.

1190
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:33,280
But the three words it's these
paint with words.

1191
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:39,080
You know, the most creative
painters first learn how to

1192
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:43,760
paint.
And creativity comes from

1193
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,200
mastering these cognitive
structures.

1194
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:48,960
You know, the art of words is
freedom.

1195
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:55,200
And for 25 years I've been
talking about taking off the

1196
00:56:55,200 --> 00:57:01,880
cognitive load, locking in what
you're trying to locking in in

1197
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,680
your mind's eye what you're
trying to get on the page.

1198
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,440
They have got with we're living
the screen age.

1199
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,760
We have got their digital lives,
their frenetic lives, their

1200
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:17,640
fast-paced lives.
New research is coming at us

1201
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,960
like a tsunami about their
grasshopper mines.

1202
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:25,480
And we need to lock it in.
We need to slow it down.

1203
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:30,800
And we know top of the science
of learning charts is

1204
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:35,240
metacognition.
So we are going to really

1205
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,240
sharpen their thinking for
writing.

1206
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:41,680
This is the progression
exemplified.

1207
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:46,240
It's the structures.
You know, there are words

1208
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:49,800
scattered all around us and we
need to assemble them.

1209
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:54,320
We need to assemble them
sentence by sentence until our

1210
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:58,160
writing takes shape.
And why a sentence?

1211
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:02,280
We graft there as a teacher.
We help their thinking there

1212
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:07,000
because that is about just
enough for them to hold in their

1213
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,560
little brains, you know?
And that is why it's been so

1214
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:15,720
powerful that you know, it is
experts in the science of

1215
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,440
learning.
It is teachers, it is leaders

1216
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:25,680
who care about literacy because
we need to help children know

1217
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,760
what to write, because sentences
where meaning is yielded.

1218
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,800
Because once we know what a
sentence is, we can break the

1219
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,160
rules and then we can write
poetry in plays.

1220
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:41,480
You've got to know it to play
with it, you know, and, and

1221
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,560
knowing the pathway and, and
This is why I want to have a big

1222
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:49,640
shout out to the appendices.
You know, people are going on

1223
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:54,440
about the the document, the
words, but in the back, anything

1224
00:58:54,440 --> 00:59:01,240
that is practical is kind of
helps us think about incremental

1225
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,000
things that children need next
and need next and need next,

1226
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,720
kind of feeding into our
responsive teaching.

1227
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:12,720
Anything that we can lift off
and push straight into the

1228
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:16,800
classroom, you know, makes us
better teachers.

1229
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:20,600
This pathway makes us better.
So I am going to push back on

1230
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:22,720
dry.
We're not going to bore them.

1231
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:24,840
We certainly don't want to
demotivate them.

1232
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,080
We don't want anything that's
going to hinder learning.

1233
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,120
And we are going to in our
curriculum culture, full

1234
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,280
writing.
We're going to get the wonder of

1235
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:39,600
words woven into all of our
work, and so that we can take

1236
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:44,640
them to wondrous worlds beyond
their limited borders of

1237
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:51,200
experience, so they can now see
what previously was unseen to

1238
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:53,560
them.
That is our job.

1239
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:59,280
We need to help them see the
beauty of writing.

1240
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:02,720
I I couldn't agree more.
I think it's unsurprising that

1241
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:06,000
when you really think about it
logically, the science of

1242
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:08,480
learning and writing isn't
really that different to the

1243
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:09,840
science of learning anything
else, is it?

1244
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:11,600
When we think about maths, you
know, we put maths the whole

1245
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:13,240
time.
It's just, you know what?

1246
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:16,440
I, I would never go into a
school and say, right here's

1247
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:18,040
where you start.
There's a bunch of reasoning and

1248
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:19,840
problem solving on stuff they
haven't done yet.

1249
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,520
Obviously I wouldn't do that.
We need the fluency and the

1250
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:25,280
fluency needs to be taught
regularly and really well.

1251
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:27,800
And do you know what?
Here is where I'm going to go

1252
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:29,240
back.
I agree, by the way, about the

1253
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:30,840
dryness that you've really made
me reflect on it.

1254
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:32,840
Right here's where I think it
actually lies for me.

1255
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:37,120
I could teach a mass fluency
arithmetic lesson really in a

1256
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:39,960
really boring way.
I could also teach the same mass

1257
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:43,080
fluency lesson for arithmetic in
a really fun, inspiring way.

1258
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:45,880
And I, and I think it may be it
boils down, maybe this dryness

1259
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:50,320
boils down to an expectation
that or, or a preconception that

1260
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,800
that teaching at centres level
work is automatically boring.

1261
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:56,520
And I can tell you from my
experience as a teacher over the

1262
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,240
years, I've taught writing in
loads of different ways through

1263
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:02,240
various schools.
And I'd say my spectrum goes all

1264
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:06,720
the way from as many lessons as
possible, really kind of

1265
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:10,480
repetitive, genuinely quite dry
grammar and punctuation tasks

1266
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:11,760
that don't have much link to
writing.

1267
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:13,600
It's just this is a grammar
objective.

1268
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:15,880
So you've just got to teach this
And just think of a task where

1269
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:18,280
they can write it down as many
times as possible in the same

1270
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:20,600
way in their book.
So they start remembering it all

1271
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:25,000
the way to policies where we've
basically said, let's, let's,

1272
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:28,320
let's not teach stand alone
grammar and punctuation as much

1273
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,400
as humanly possible and
integrate it within like fun

1274
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:34,280
little paragraphs and pieces of
writing and creative writing as

1275
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:37,000
much as possible.
So I've seen that whole spectrum

1276
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:39,280
and, and I kind of just want to,
I think I want to summarise, I

1277
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:42,480
want you to summarise your
thoughts now as to where you

1278
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:45,160
feel like generally we should be
on that spectrum when we're

1279
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:48,360
teaching writing.
For me, I've been working for

1280
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:55,320
donkeys years with schools
around learning chunks and in a

1281
01:01:55,360 --> 01:02:01,600
chunk for writing.
We are going to foster with

1282
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:06,840
children thesaurus thinking and
and that's not just about one

1283
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,040
word.
This is, you know, chunks of

1284
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:12,920
language, what we might need, we
might need words, we might need

1285
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:17,040
phrases, we might need clauses,
we might need photographs.

1286
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:20,960
You know, we, we need stuff for
writing, you know, we want to

1287
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:23,720
initiate the thinking for
writing.

1288
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:30,360
Well, and it's it's a bit, it's
a bit Fat Boy slimness, but it's

1289
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:34,760
right here, right.
I can feel that coming.

1290
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,440
If I don't have some music, I
believe with that on.

1291
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:47,640
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we're doing, we're doing

1292
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:49,360
songs, kids.
So let's break down that right.

1293
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:52,960
Yeah.
I mean it's.

1294
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:59,360
Getting that language there so
that when we are, and I'm going

1295
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:01,400
to, I do really want to talk
about modelling.

1296
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:07,480
But when we are modelling, they
have a shared insight with us.

1297
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:11,560
You know, it's not about you
being amazing.

1298
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:14,960
Obviously we are amazing as
teachers, we are amazing.

1299
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:18,800
But it's, it's about, it's not
about the performance of

1300
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:23,440
modelling.
Our oral duty when modelling is

1301
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:30,680
as I am helping children see
actually three things at once.

1302
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:34,960
What is my locked in image?
What is my for writing?

1303
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:39,240
They are seeing the words come
on the page live with a pen in

1304
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:41,520
my hand.
Whether that's electronic on a

1305
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:43,680
visualizer or an iPad Cat, it
doesn't matter.

1306
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:46,320
A bit of paper, who cares?
That's live.

1307
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:50,240
But then there's this
articulation, this articulation.

1308
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:56,440
But when they're seeing those 3
layers of of watching a model

1309
01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:01,120
being produced, they when I talk
about C, we had that word

1310
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:06,040
earlier, they see as in have
insight with me of all the

1311
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:08,080
options.
That's your job, isn't it?

1312
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:10,560
Get them to see it.
Exactly.

1313
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:13,160
Yeah, I completely agree, Jane.
I think I think modelling is

1314
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:15,440
really important.
It's something we've pushed a

1315
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:17,440
lot.
Again, just I'm talking

1316
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:19,760
personally in our schools and
we've seen how effective it can

1317
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:22,960
be.
And I suppose just to, to, to

1318
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:26,080
wrap this up, I guess in, in a
nice package for, for leaders

1319
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:29,160
who listen for, for teaching
staff for this and, and want to

1320
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:31,320
go away and say, have you seen
the framework and, and someone

1321
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:32,680
says, no, I've not seen it.
You're like, what?

1322
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:35,960
You need to see this, how, what,
what do you think?

1323
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:37,800
Now?
Then are the next steps?

1324
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:41,520
What's the role of an English
subject lead out there or school

1325
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:45,880
leadership in general to bring
this framework to life?

1326
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:47,640
Now what?
What's the next step come

1327
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:50,640
September?
What can they do in schools to

1328
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:54,080
actively improve writing through
this framework?

1329
01:04:54,480 --> 01:05:01,240
Number one, top of the charts,
modelling and us thinking about

1330
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:07,040
modelling never ever stops.
Modelling is teaching, Modelling

1331
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:12,280
is fundamental and this reveal
in real time, we've got to get

1332
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:15,080
so good at that.
We can't do that on the fly.

1333
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:18,680
We've got a plan for that.
We've got a plan the

1334
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:20,960
misunderstandings.
We've got to predict what the

1335
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:23,840
problems are.
It's not about us writing in an

1336
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,560
adult way.
We're doing deliberate mistakes

1337
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:29,240
because it's their problems
we're feeding them in.

1338
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:32,440
We're doing full starts
revisions, and we are

1339
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:36,080
illuminating the world of the
expert thinker.

1340
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:38,360
Because you know what?
We are great.

1341
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:43,080
We are experts.
And when we nurse our Ects into

1342
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:47,440
our school, it is our job to
pass on that expertise.

1343
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:50,680
Modelling.
It's not PowerPoint paralysis.

1344
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:55,000
It is showing the invisible,
which is thinking.

1345
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:58,400
We want them to notice it.
We are articulating, we're

1346
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:02,640
explaining, we're illuminating a
window to our mind.

1347
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:04,680
This is where we're unpacking
things.

1348
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:10,320
We are thinking out loud.
This is all of the meta

1349
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:14,480
linguistic talk.
We need to be authoritative

1350
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:20,880
because we know they need this.
Next, it is strong, dynamic,

1351
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:26,200
whole class teaching and we are
constantly doing without

1352
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:28,640
confusing them.
The drop down menu.

1353
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:31,840
It could be this, it could be
this, it could be this.

1354
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:35,760
Anything that is closed
procedure is narrowing.

1355
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:40,920
This is an open running up of
your thinking and your hard

1356
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:43,680
thinking.
But you know, what do you know

1357
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:48,000
for leaders?
Oh, my goodness, you might be

1358
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:50,440
tired.
You might be tired.

1359
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:56,560
What?
You might.

1360
01:06:57,240 --> 01:06:59,720
I've become hysterical.
This, You know when you start

1361
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:01,360
crying and you don't even know
why you're crying.

1362
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:02,720
What's happened to me this?
Morning.

1363
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:08,840
Yeah, but I'll tell.
You, this, now leaders have to

1364
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:15,360
animate this framework.
You know, these words, these are

1365
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:18,160
words, aren't they in the
framework for us?

1366
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:25,640
But we've got to lift them off
the page and we have to enable

1367
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:28,120
children to have their words in
their books.

1368
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:30,600
It is not dry.
It is not formal.

1369
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:35,720
It is our role to make it rich,
enticing, and I'm going to say

1370
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:39,520
forensic and purposeful.
We can't rush.

1371
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:43,160
We, we can't rush.
This isn't like I'm, I'm talking

1372
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:49,840
in a very urgent way because I
am urgently excited about it.

1373
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:54,560
But believe you me, this is
going to percolate in my mind

1374
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:59,960
for a long time, as it should
for all leaders of schools and

1375
01:07:59,960 --> 01:08:03,360
writing.
I mean, we must cogitate over it

1376
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:08,840
and we must lean into it.
I don't think I want to have

1377
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:13,240
conversations with people who
haven't read it or know how much

1378
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:17,800
it's rooted in the science of
learning And good leaders will

1379
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:23,520
will bridge will bridge that non
statutory guidance, but actually

1380
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:28,720
be hopeful about it and and
bridge it over into good

1381
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:32,120
writing.
We need to prioritise staff

1382
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:35,840
training because there is so
much to talk about to improve

1383
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:41,160
our practise.
We've got to model a belief in

1384
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:45,080
the importance of sentenced
nurse because anything that gets

1385
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:48,560
too big, we are in the realm of
cognitive overload.

1386
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:52,120
But sentences can come in
quickly and they can breathe

1387
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:56,359
into paragraphs.
We've got to protect time for

1388
01:08:56,359 --> 01:09:02,399
oral composition, high quality
editing and feedback on what is

1389
01:09:02,399 --> 01:09:05,479
that in all its forms and lead
us.

1390
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:09,080
Oh my goodness, no matter how
tough it gets, we know this.

1391
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:15,040
We've got to stay close to the
classroom practise so that we

1392
01:09:15,359 --> 01:09:19,680
are seeing, we are seeing and
know the next steps.

1393
01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:26,000
So I do think this begins the
conversation of clarity around

1394
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:29,000
writing.
Hey, and you know, there are

1395
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:35,200
things that could be said
differently or the nuance could

1396
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:39,040
have a different lens, but I
think anything that starts the

1397
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:43,160
conversation is really powerful.
And if you're if you're in a

1398
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:46,080
right stuff school, you'll be
doing a lot of this already.

1399
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:51,560
But lead us, set the tempo.
And if we, this is my last point

1400
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:54,920
I'm going to make.
If we value quality over

1401
01:09:54,920 --> 01:10:04,320
quantity and purpose over
performance pressure, then this

1402
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:06,720
this document is for you.
Brilliant.

1403
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:08,920
Thank you so much, Jane.
I must admit, just from a

1404
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:11,760
personal level, as someone who
looks at this framework, maybe I

1405
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:14,280
fell into the bandwagon a bit
and I was a bit impartial.

1406
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:16,400
I was like, oh, I don't know, it
seems all right, but I don't

1407
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:17,360
know.
This is, I've been doing lots of

1408
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:19,120
this stuff already.
Some of this stuff I don't know

1409
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:21,200
about, but hearing a
professional speak about it and

1410
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:24,320
someone you know is in in the
writing world as you, which I

1411
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:26,600
don't think many people are much
more in the writing world than

1412
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:27,920
you, right?
I'm passionate.

1413
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:31,160
I'm passionate about it.
I do really feel more optimistic

1414
01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:33,000
about it now.
And I'm actually very glad we

1415
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:34,880
had this conversation because I
definitely would have slipped

1416
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:37,840
into the to the hype online of
oh, well, yeah, there's some of

1417
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:39,320
these things I don't like that
and I don't do this.

1418
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:41,320
And no, this is dry.
And then, you know, you

1419
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:43,880
challenge that idea of dryness
really well to the point where I

1420
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:46,720
genuinely completely disagree
now, whereas before I was a bit

1421
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:48,440
like, oh, maybe it could be a
bit dry.

1422
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:50,600
So yeah, I.
Appreciate what is dryness?

1423
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:53,400
Honestly, it's down to the it's
down to us as well as stuff like

1424
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:55,360
you think the math thing's
perfect.

1425
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:58,800
How, how actually boring is it
teaching children repeatedly to

1426
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:02,000
add 3 past 10?
Like, let's be honest, OK, it's

1427
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:04,120
as boring as you make it, but
you can make it fun.

1428
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:07,120
You can make it interesting.
And ultimately when you want to

1429
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:10,120
get the children writing you, if
you all know it's difficult and

1430
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:13,440
hard and long term, like you
said, the thing I want to see is

1431
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:16,840
leaders in schools not falling
into the trap of new guidance

1432
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:18,160
right tomorrow.
It needs to be perfect.

1433
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:20,240
I'm gonna change everything.
It's not going to happen.

1434
01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:22,440
You're going to do it badly if
you do it quickly.

1435
01:11:22,440 --> 01:11:27,720
So go slowly, Train your staff,
implement almost that passion

1436
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:30,360
and that writing culture.
You can't implement a culture in

1437
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:32,080
two days.
No, you cannot do that.

1438
01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:34,040
Like you said, it's this is the
beginning, right?

1439
01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:36,280
And I will just say for our
listeners that that maybe we

1440
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:39,880
have a lot of ECT listeners.
It took me genuinely my whole

1441
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:44,200
career, 10 years to even
properly get my head around what

1442
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:47,200
actual good modelling was.
It's not something I learned at

1443
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:48,760
the beginning of my career.
It's not something I even

1444
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:51,040
learned in mid career.
I was told to do it all the way

1445
01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:52,920
through.
Each got a model, but I never

1446
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:54,600
really understood it.
And the one thing I would say,

1447
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:56,560
if you're listening, think I
want I want to action just one

1448
01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:58,920
thing in my school.
I'm just very much reiterating

1449
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:01,400
what Jane has just said.
Get some training in with

1450
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:04,200
modelling a proper training.
Don't just let your head teacher

1451
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:06,280
say, I've read the framework and
it definitely says we should

1452
01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:08,040
model more.
So everybody model more because

1453
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:10,840
it doesn't work.
I spent nine years of my career

1454
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:13,200
being told to model more and not
really understanding what it

1455
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:14,520
was.
And I had one really good

1456
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:17,560
training and it completely
transformed my perception of

1457
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:20,240
what actual modelling was.
And like you said, it does need

1458
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:21,680
to be planned.
It's not just going up to the

1459
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:24,280
board and just, you know, on a
whim doing a couple of sentences

1460
01:12:24,280 --> 01:12:26,240
and getting them to tell you
everything to write it it.

1461
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:28,880
So different so.
Yeah, really reiterating that

1462
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:31,440
point, Get some modelling
training booked in for sure.

1463
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:34,360
Yeah, Jane.
And hey, I love, I love training

1464
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:37,440
on modelling, you know, so you
know, I'm.

1465
01:12:37,480 --> 01:12:42,480
Inviting someone here.
Yeah, hey, I've loved, you know,

1466
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:46,680
and I and actually we keep
learning in life, don't we, all

1467
01:12:46,680 --> 01:12:50,960
the time about how we can make
it more expert for our children.

1468
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:55,960
You know, I am so delighted that
you've given me a chance to

1469
01:12:56,080 --> 01:12:59,000
share out about the gems in
here.

1470
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:03,960
It's an exciting time and
actually a big message as well.

1471
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:07,760
You know, it's not revolution,
it's not babies out with bath

1472
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:11,640
waters.
It's evolution and it's really,

1473
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:16,320
it's refining and sharpening.
You know what?

1474
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:21,320
What do we want to interrogate
and make a little bit better and

1475
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:23,880
then really better and great and
then brilliant.

1476
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:25,520
Let's do it.
It's exciting.

1477
01:13:25,960 --> 01:13:30,360
Jane, thank you so much.
We hope you enjoyed that chat

1478
01:13:30,360 --> 01:13:33,040
all about the brand new writing
framework and more importantly,

1479
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:35,040
we would love to hear your
opinion on it.

1480
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:37,640
So get in touch with us at Teach
Sleep Repeat podcast on

1481
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:41,240
Instagram, at Teach Sleep Repeat
Podcast on TikTok, or send us an

1482
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:43,800
e-mail
teachsleeprepeatpod@gmail.com.

1483
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:47,360
But most importantly, leave us a
review if you enjoyed it helps

1484
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:48,840
us out massively, helps our
reach.

1485
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:51,680
Share the podcast, give us five
stars, and we'll catch you again

1486
01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:52,120
next time.