Ep 120: Do Appraisals Actually Reward Good Teaching? Tick-Boxes, Free Labour & Ridiculous Targets

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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to another episode of Teach

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Sleep Repeat.
My name is Dylan.

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And my name is Hayden.
And this week we're going to

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take a deep dive look into the
anxiety with a mess that is the

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appraisal system when it comes
to the end of the school year,

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we'll be taking a look at how
good teaching is often pushed to

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one side in favour of tick box
exercises.

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How we still link pay
progression to performance in

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our appraisals despite the rules
changing.

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And what a fair and meaningful
appraisal system might look like

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in a modern school.
But first, let's have a little

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catch up.
So Hayden, you're back from

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abandoning your child for three
days.

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So yeah, something called a
residential that you went on,

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something where you can leave
your family behind, not worry

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about looking after your kid to
go and look after 32.

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Yeah, other people's children.
You you wouldn't know about it

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because it's it's it's all about
caring about the children you

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teach at school.
Yeah.

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So you would not.
More than your own child.

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Yeah, no, you've not heard of
it, But even before you had a.

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Child, you wouldn't have done
it.

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Here we go.
Here we go.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jokes aside, OK, I know you love

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residentials.
We've often been on residential.

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I've been on the residential
before.

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But it did genuinely surprised
me when I heard that you were

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doing the residential.
Why I, I just think based on

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everything we've talked about in
this podcast, right?

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And I think we've been very fair
and we talked about how we've

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done residentials before.
And I just want to make it very

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clear that I don't think every
teacher ever should say no to a

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residential.
I absolutely don't think that

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and there were some years where
I do residential and some years

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where I wouldn't.
But I just thought for you

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personally, based on all the
things we've spoken about, I

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really thought you wouldn't be
doing it this year.

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So like what?
What tipped you over the edge?

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Did you ever consider not doing
it?

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Because I know you do it most
years.

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What was your?
Thought process a bit, a bit of

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both.
So I did consider not doing it

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because for obvious reasons,
like I've got, you know, we've

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got river at home, like she
needs to be looked after, but I

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don't know.
It was like it was my last year.

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I know that I know it's my last
year.

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Like the notices are in now.
I was like, this is my last

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chance probably to go on a
residential.

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I genuinely, and I say this
every year anyway, but I I

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absolutely adore my class.
Like they're so nice.

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And most of my class were going,
I actually had the biggest turn

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out because obviously not every
kid goes on a residential.

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They all get the chance, but I
had the like, by far the biggest

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number.
And I was like, I just, I really

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wanted to spend this last bit of
time with them.

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Lauren's call.
She was like, yeah, go and have

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fun.
Like there was no, there was no

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awkwardness at home for that.
And I was just like, you know

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what, It's two nights away from
home.

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I'm going to do it.
And I thought, you know what?

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Get away, get away from home.
I'll have a lovely rest.

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Right.
A little holiday.

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What holiday?
On residential.

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Oh.
Yes, because all those people

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online, those parents saying why
am I paying for the bloody

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teachers to go on getting a
holiday as well on the back of

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my pound.
Yeah, it wasn't that.

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No.
So if anything, I had, I haven't

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had less sleep in my life.
Oh man.

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You thought you had it sorted it
you, but I'm going to leave my

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18 month at home.
At home.

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My partner's fine with it it
it's all good.

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I'm going to go away and get a
lovely bit of sleep.

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You got to sleep then, Yeah.
I think I got about 3 1/2 hours.

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Was the first night horrible?
Horrible.

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Then had a whole day of
activities.

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Obviously the next day on three
hours, 3 1/2 hours sleep, and

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then the next night I got about
6:00.

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So that was all right.
So between the two nights, you

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got your average?
Yeah.

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I got I got a night's sleep.
Yeah, it's always the way.

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But you know what made it so
much worse?

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The whole sleep thing.
It was boiling.

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Yeah, Dylan, it was a heat wave.
It was AI went on residential in

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the two days where it just
decided to be a heat wave.

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It was horribly hot.
But wouldn't you rather be out

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doing stuff than in a stuffy
classroom?

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Yeah, until I'm in the stuffy
corridor and the stuffy rooms

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that we had to sleep in.
Oh my God.

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So it's like the place we stay,
right?

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It's an old police training
Academy centre, classic.

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And and the is tiny, like the
rooms are tiny.

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They have a little bunk bed in
there for the kids.

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Like the teacher rooms are a bit
bigger, so a little bit more air

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in there to actually get cool.
But it was all we're on the top

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floor of this big buildings,
third floor.

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It it didn't drop below 30° in
the corridor or in the rooms the

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whole night for the first night,
the second.

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No air conditioning you mean?
No air conditioning windows

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obviously don't open much
because it's gotta be safety

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safe for kids, right?
So there's a little like crack

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of windows.
It was boiling.

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So obviously we had lots of
tears and kids like at like

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midnight, 2 in the morning, 3:00
in the morning being like, I

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can't sleep because it's so hot.
Like can I go home?

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Just but it is 2 AM 2.
AM yeah, bless them.

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Like they, I give them their
credit.

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They all, they all, they all
stuck at it.

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You know they got through.
So thinking about residentials

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in general, right?
Because we both absolutely agree

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that it's an unbelievable
experience for the children, and

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we love providing those
experiences for the children.

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And we hope that in a school
there's enough adults to be able

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to provide it, right?
Yeah.

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Yeah.
But what then, in your opinion,

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do you think is a fair swap, a
fair trade of time?

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Because I don't think it would
be fair just to say to year six

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staff.
Well, year six are doing the

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residential.
You're a year 6 teacher.

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You're off for a couple of
nights with the children working

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essentially 24/7.
When you were up at 2:00 AM with

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a child crying, wanting to go
home, yeah, you were working.

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Yeah, of course he was working
the whole time.

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In all honesty, I had no
downtime.

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Like absolutely 0 downtime.
Like there were moments where I

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could sit down and watch the
kids do their activity and

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stuff.
But I'm still, you're still in

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work mode, you know, I'm not,
I'm not having actual downtime.

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And by the time it gets to the
point like 2:00 AM when you go

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to sleep, I don't want to sit
there on my phone or watch

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something.
Do you know what I mean?

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I just want to go to sleep.
Yeah.

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I think, I think just, it just
has to be respectful.

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Like a Lou day, a day in lieu
afterwards or maybe even 2 if

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you've got you're going away for
like a week.

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I think it'll be quite fair to
say to your teachers, right?

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You've got two days in lieu for
all those extra nights and

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evenings you just did with the
kids where you were in work

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mode.
Take them whenever you want.

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So.
Would you go in the residential

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if you weren't compensated at
all whatsoever?

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Honestly, like absolutely not
really.

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There is 0% chance that I know.
I just said I really want to go

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with the kids and I do.
I would still want to and I'd be

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making a bit of a sacrifice, but
out almost like a strike out of

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protest.
I'd be like, that's ridiculously

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unfair.
No, And I hope every other

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teacher says no until they go,
Oh yeah, this is unfair and we

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change something.
That is how you generate A

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collective action works.
But yeah, well, we'll come on to

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teach Standard 8 later on and
how it's abused by people in

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charge to justify things like
this.

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But I, I do you find in general
in school it is a stick used to

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beat people up with is this idea
of the classic line when it's

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for the children.
And that's all well and good,

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it's fantastic.
And there's so much we do

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already that goes above and
beyond in that respect.

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But how on earth does that lead
to giving up a week of your life

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away from your family?
Just 'cause you're a six teacher

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and it's for the kids, that's
not enough.

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I know what you mean.
But luckily it's all worth it,

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Dylan, because you know, it's
it's all it's so wholesome.

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As teachers, we work for
wholeness and we.

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Work for respect.
I did.

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I did actually pay my water bill
that's gone up hundreds of

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pounds with wholesomeness.
Yeah, it was great.

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There was one thing that
happened on residential that I

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just want to talk about because
I actually just want your brain

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on this because I was a bit, I
was left a bit confused, right?

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So a kid made a joke and made a
joke towards me, right.

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The context they're being is
they were trying to be funny to

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you, to me personally.
And the reason this a kid made a

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joke to me is because you know
what kind of relationship I have

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with the children where I'm
quite open.

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Like I'll joke about myself all
the time.

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Like I'll, I'll make silly, like
I'll say to them, I'll make up

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funny stories of how I lost my
hair and then I'll say like I

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was on a motorcycle one day and
I took my helmet off and it all

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flew off.
And then, and then it kind of

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opens up the idea that I don't
mind joking about this sort of

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stuff.
I'm not, I'm not insecure about

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it.
And we have 1/2 ball jokes and

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you know that I'll have silly
games with the kids.

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Like we're quite open because
blow dark.

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Maths.
Blow dark maths, for example,

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like I'll do stupid things with
the kids and my whole point is I

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try to teach them like humility
and it's OK to like laugh at

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yourself a little bit.
Like you don't have to be so

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insecure about everything.
So the context, essentially what

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you're saying is you've got this
relationship with your children

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where it's a normal thing for
them to try and poke a bit of

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fun.
Yeah, exactly.

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And and be like sarcastic and
have the other because I'm a bit

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sarcastic with them sometimes.
You know, obviously I'm not

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outright rude.
I wouldn't say anything mean to

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the children, but I am
sarcastic.

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Just just show them like it's
OK.

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Like we're all just human.
And and part of your, I know

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this, so I'm going to make this
very clear to everyone listening

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because I know what you're like.
You really do try and teach this

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as a teachable moment of where
lines are and how it might be

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different for different people.
Exactly that I regularly say to

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the kids, right?
Stuff like, yeah, OK, we have

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this joke about my baldness,
right?

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And you've all caught on to the
fact that I'm OK with it and

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it's just a funny thing.
Because.

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You LED it because I LED it and
they didn't.

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They would never, I don't think
they'd ever do it without me

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opening it up.
I said to them, I was like, but

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when you go to secondary school
and there's like a bald teacher,

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you need to remember that it's
completely inappropriate and not

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OK for you to go up and make a
bald joke to them because you,

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because you don't have the
relationship yet.

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You haven't built that
relationship and trust with them

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where you where they absolutely
know you're joking in the same

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way that I could joke with you
about anything, right?

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Realistically, because we know
each other very well and we know

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that we're joking and we know
that we're joking.

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We're just teasing.
It's not meant to hurt each

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other's feelings, right.
So anyway, back to the story.

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So we're in the dinner hall and
I just had my lunch and I was

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still a bit peckish.
I went over to this little snack

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bar that apples and yoghurts and
stuff like that.

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And I was like, yeah, OK, I'm
going to have a yoghurt.

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00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,400
And I brought over my little
apricot yoghurt.

226
00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,800
Yeah, yeah, I got my 5th
yoghurt.

227
00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:30,880
Oh, I missed yoghurt as well.
I've tried all the flavours.

228
00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,919
And I sat down and I was with, I
was basically with, I was on a

229
00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:36,600
table and there were two kids
with me who were basically stuck

230
00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,120
to me like glue for this whole
residential trip.

231
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,080
And it was really sweet, like
they just, they just wanted to

232
00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:42,600
finish.
So I just, I just kept sitting

233
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:43,960
with them and, and just making
sure they're all right.

234
00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:45,360
And there's a couple of other
kids around as well.

235
00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,680
But these two have my attention.
And I put my yoghurt down and I

236
00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:51,200
could see one of the kids who
was eating his lunch iron it up

237
00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:53,280
and he sort of read it out out
loud.

238
00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,720
He went fat free apricot yoghurt
and I was like, yeah, I was

239
00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,400
about to start start saying it's
really nice.

240
00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:00,960
And he just looked at me and he
had a smirk.

241
00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,320
I knew something was coming.
And he said, oh, Mr Stevens, I'm

242
00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,600
afraid it's a bit late for that.
And had immediately was smiling.

243
00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,360
So he was obviously trying to
make me laugh, but he was it was

244
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,280
like a a weight joke.
So I was a bit like, I didn't

245
00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:16,960
know how to react because I
because he wasn't trying to

246
00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,120
offend me.
He was trying to be funny.

247
00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,320
And and I felt bad because I'm
like, oh, I've opened up this.

248
00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:22,880
But have you have like like with
the board thing?

249
00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:24,640
Yeah.
Have you ever?

250
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:26,520
I don't lead with that.
I don't.

251
00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,520
Think so like I, I might have
maybe one time in the past been

252
00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:30,760
like said to a little belly
thing.

253
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,720
Oh, I'm I'm trying not to eat
too much chocolate at the moment

254
00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,040
and like pack my belly.
But I've never made jokes out of

255
00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,960
what you said, because I do
think that's a bit further than

256
00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:38,880
baldness.
I don't know.

257
00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:40,560
I don't know, maybe it's just a
cultural thing, but like joking

258
00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:41,840
about people.
We can chat about this I think.

259
00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:43,280
Yeah.
So, so I didn't know really know

260
00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,360
how to, I didn't tell this kid
off because I did feel

261
00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,880
responsible for the fact that,
you know what I give that giving

262
00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,520
that kid his credit, there's no
way he would have gone up to

263
00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,040
another member of staff and said
that it was a very much a me

264
00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,480
thing because he knows I joke
about stuff all the time and,

265
00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,480
and I'm always like being a bit
sarcastic and silly.

266
00:09:57,960 --> 00:09:59,640
So he obviously thought this is
a funny joke.

267
00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:02,240
I'll say it to Mr. Was he trying
to be malicious and her?

268
00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,080
Not at all because he was
immediately smirking and he was

269
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:05,960
like, he was clearly joking, but
he was clearly just.

270
00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:06,360
Joking.
He was.

271
00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:07,400
He was looking for your
approval.

272
00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:08,480
Almost.
Yeah, my approval.

273
00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:09,720
Of this joke.
And I sort of gave him that look

274
00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,120
of like, like, that's a bit
close.

275
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,680
I don't know how to react to
this because I, because I find

276
00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:18,720
it personally, I find it funny
because I, I mean, you would

277
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:20,560
make that joke private because
we know each other really well.

278
00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:22,800
Yeah, but I would never make
that joke to basically anyone

279
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,680
else.
And you and I as an adult

280
00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:27,880
friendship relationship, it's
very different.

281
00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,360
So what we should be cultivating
with the children exactly.

282
00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:32,400
So what's your what was your
what's your feeling?

283
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:32,760
What?
What?

284
00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:33,800
What do you want my opinion on
I?

285
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,720
Just I just was it was, should I
have told that child off?

286
00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,480
Am I, is it my fault?
And am I pushing the line too

287
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:41,720
far?
Like all of these thoughts went

288
00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,840
through my head of like oh God I
should really think about this.

289
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,000
So I think in general, when
we're talking about telling

290
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,200
children off in general, I, you
know, I, I don't, I think

291
00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,120
there's very few times where you
should be shouting and raising

292
00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:54,320
your voice and telling someone
off.

293
00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:55,880
Yeah.
But when we say telling off, I

294
00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,200
do think that was a moment to
really jump on that whole thing

295
00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,120
that you say a lot of which is
what's appropriate or not.

296
00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,640
Because what I would be doing,
I'd like when you said that, OK,

297
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:05,960
all I can go off is my gut
instinct.

298
00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:07,440
Yeah.
And I think that's a big thing

299
00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,760
in general in my practise where
gut instinct is usually correct

300
00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,360
for this type of thing.
Where when you said that, I

301
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,080
thought, oh, no, yeah, that's a
bit too far.

302
00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,800
And I would hate to be the
professional in that

303
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:26,720
circumstance that laughs it off
and thinks that's OK, even if I

304
00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:28,640
think what you've said.
Like that child would never go

305
00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,320
off and do it with someone else
or it never happened.

306
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:31,760
Yeah.
But what if someone just heard

307
00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:33,920
it walking past?
What if another child who really

308
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,920
struggles with that and really
struggles with their self esteem

309
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,400
and has anxiety about it, Here's
someone joking about it, poking

310
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,160
fun.
And then they look at their

311
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,560
teacher, someone they really
respect in that position of

312
00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:47,320
power, and their teacher goes,
haha, yeah, isn't that right?

313
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,240
That's going to make you.
Feel to lose some weight, kid.

314
00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,520
Yeah, you're right.
I do think there are certain

315
00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,600
things, and we all agree this.
We all agree this line exists

316
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,920
somewhere.
You could think of 345 things

317
00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,840
that we would never, ever, ever
joke about because it is, it's

318
00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:02,720
too far and it's completely
inappropriate and wrong and

319
00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,120
horrible.
So that line is somewhere.

320
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,480
And I think as a professional,
that line comes back even

321
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:09,760
further.
And I do think it captures stuff

322
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,760
like like that, like, wait, you
know, there'll be people who are

323
00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,440
incredibly insecure about it.
Adults, children, anyone to

324
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:21,320
teachers, other members of
staff, children in your class, I

325
00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:23,800
think that's a moment where you
don't necessarily have to go

326
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,760
after that child and make them
feel awful and say you're an

327
00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,320
awful person for doing this.
They're learning where the line

328
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:30,800
is.
They're still learning that.

329
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,840
And as the teacher, as the
professional involved, I would

330
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,080
say it's my duty at that point
to explain that to them and say,

331
00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:41,200
look, that that's inappropriate.
It's inappropriate thing to say.

332
00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:43,200
It might really hurt someone's
feelings.

333
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,320
Whether you think it's true or
not, whether you think it's

334
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,320
funny or not.
It's almost separate and it's

335
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,640
almost irrelevant to in this
situation, actually, we should

336
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:53,840
have this a little bit of a
line, I think.

337
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,280
And if you do that at home with
someone who you're really close

338
00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,160
with and you both agree that's
fine, that's cool.

339
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,960
You and me, we might have this
kind of relationship where lines

340
00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,440
are slightly different perhaps.
But at the end of the day, I

341
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,000
think something me and you need
to really think about, I do

342
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,280
think in general is where that
line should be and how we move

343
00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,320
that line.
Do you think that line can be

344
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:13,920
objective?
Could you think that line can be

345
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:15,920
a global line for all teachers
to follow?

346
00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:19,440
Or do you think it is kind of
down to the relationships you

347
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,600
build with the kids?
I think the line can move

348
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,800
between teachers because I think
that can come down to your style

349
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,320
as well as a teacher can come
down to your behaviour

350
00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,280
management technique.
It can come down to different

351
00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,360
children in your class.
You know, we want to be as

352
00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,960
consistent as possible for a lot
of different things and that's

353
00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,960
absolutely needed to even cross
a line as simple as that.

354
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,480
But I do think you can reach
certain children by having these

355
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,800
types of relationship with them.
But I think there is a a place

356
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,120
where that line can't go past.
Yeah, you can almost have like a

357
00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,680
2 lines genuinely like a global
line of like it's just not

358
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:51,000
acceptable to joke about why
people's weight.

359
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,120
Let's just all agree on that.
We all agree on that anyway.

360
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:54,800
Let's just not do that.
Let's not foster that

361
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,760
environment.
But you know what, Like there

362
00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,200
are some teachers if I dropped,
if I went to put my pen back on

363
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,000
my smart board and I
accidentally dropped it, my my

364
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,280
kids in my room probably would
like make a joke out of it.

365
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:05,560
Yeah.
And I would as well.

366
00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:06,560
Yeah.
Whereas I know those other

367
00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:08,440
teachers, if the kids, if kids
like where how you dropped your

368
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,000
pen or something silly, they'd
be like, don't do that.

369
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,240
Don't talk to us.
How so disrespectful and rude.

370
00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,720
And that's where I'm like, I
think that line can probably

371
00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:17,760
change because if the global
line was where the other teacher

372
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,720
is, what am I going to do?
Because that's just not me.

373
00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:22,440
I'll have to be some robot
that's not myself.

374
00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,520
So with that, it's something
interesting because maybe we're

375
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,280
going to our personal
experiences that in a minute,

376
00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,480
but I find that really
interesting because I struggle

377
00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,800
with what you're saying.
And even though you and I do

378
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,040
this and my kids will have the
best relationship in the world

379
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,040
where we can joke and laugh and
be happy.

380
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,000
And if I do something silly, a
child might say, that was silly,

381
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:41,760
wasn't it?
More silly, actually, Yeah.

382
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:43,160
But you know what's even more
silly?

383
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,560
Sitting on your chair like that.
And then they'll laugh, and then

384
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,760
they'll stop it, etcetera.
And that would be very different

385
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,280
to a different classroom.
But I also do feel personally

386
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,440
responsible.
It was transition day last week,

387
00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:55,880
and my class went up to a
different teacher.

388
00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:00,040
And I spent a good chunk of my
time in school the week before

389
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:04,240
thinking to myself, if my class
go up and do this that they've

390
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,920
done with me every week.
If they go up and are silly in

391
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,040
the register, like we say is OK
because we can do it in certain

392
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,600
ways that we've all agreed is
not crossing a line.

393
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,800
If they say something that they
would say to me, which is still

394
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,600
absolutely within this line
we've created and way back, but

395
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,560
might be in a different line
from a different teacher, am I

396
00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,760
going to feel personally
embarrassed and I will feel at

397
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,760
fault if a child's told off for
doing something that I've said

398
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,040
is fine in my classroom.
And if they go up to the next

399
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,680
classroom and do the same thing
and then then are told off and

400
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,080
scolded for it, I would feel
personally responsible for that.

401
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:38,880
And I guess this is what I'm
getting at with what you said.

402
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,120
If a child did that to someone
else, whether or not I think I

403
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:44,720
can, oh, what?
That child would never do it to

404
00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:46,200
someone else.
OK, well, they might though.

405
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,160
Like they just might.
They just might.

406
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,000
And if they go well, I built up
this really nice relationship

407
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,080
with Mr Stevens and, and we had
this kind of joke and I thought

408
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,080
I built up this really nice
relationship with you, my new

409
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,600
teacher.
So I just thought that it was

410
00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,880
acceptable then because he said
that if you just are doing it

411
00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,320
with someone you're friends
with, it's OK, they're going to

412
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,680
have a different line.
And if that child gets upset and

413
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,080
is told off and feels bad
because of how they've impacted

414
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,480
someone else, that's on me.
And I struggle with that.

415
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,480
The counter argument I guess is
that it is just a life lesson

416
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:15,840
though and we are just.
It's not all about academics.

417
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,320
Like we all know as adults that
we do have different

418
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:20,800
relationships with different
adults as well.

419
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,880
I make jokes to you, and I
wouldn't make jokes to other

420
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,360
people for about the same things
because I understand the

421
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:26,600
context.
That context matters.

422
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:27,680
Yeah.
And I'm like, you got to learn

423
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:28,440
that at some point.
Yeah.

424
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,440
But didn't didn't I?
Literally earlier in this in

425
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,120
this talk, Green talked about
going out to the buffet.

426
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,520
I said to you 5th time.
Yeah, exactly, Exactly.

427
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:35,880
Yeah.
You're literally implying that

428
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,640
I'm eating too much, right?
And it's just a joke because we

429
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:39,520
know it's a joke.
But I.

430
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,400
Think it's different when you're
professional in a job with

431
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:42,680
children?
Yeah, I agree.

432
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:44,160
I agree because you are teaching
certain things.

433
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,600
But there is, but there's got to
be a point as well where kids do

434
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,880
need to learn, sure, the yes,
adults are just different and

435
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:52,520
you do just need to learn
different adults and actually

436
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:53,640
respect their different
boundaries.

437
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,960
And yet we all do it.
We all put on different show.

438
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:57,240
I don't talk to you in the same
way.

439
00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,240
I talk to our head teacher in
the same way I would talk to an

440
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,040
Ofsted inspector.
Like they're all completely

441
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:02,120
different.
Like I just have different

442
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:03,400
boundaries.
And I understand that because I

443
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,200
learned at some point in my life
that oh, it's not just anything

444
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,000
goes because one person said
it's OK with them.

445
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,079
I don't know, like maybe that's
not our job.

446
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:12,079
I don't know.
I don't know.

447
00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:14,520
But I all I can say is that
people who've listened for a

448
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,560
long time will know that you and
I with our classes will have a

449
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,160
laugh about the other teacher.
Yeah.

450
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,400
So for example, if I'm reading,
we were reading some kind of, it

451
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,720
was something with a troll in
one of the troll under the

452
00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:26,640
bridge.
Yeah, right.

453
00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:28,160
And there was a picture of it on
the board.

454
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,240
And I'd say, hey, look, Mr
Stevens in the morning.

455
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,160
And they'd all laugh because,
yeah, it's Mr Stevens in the

456
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,080
morning.
And I think that's OK.

457
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,400
I think that's acceptable
because you and I both know

458
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,000
what's going on.
We're both OK with it.

459
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,440
It might engage the children for
a bit.

460
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,920
It's a harmless little joke.
You're not actually a troll

461
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:45,880
under a bridge.
Obviously, we all know that.

462
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,920
But when they see you in the
corridor and I'm walking them to

463
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,120
lunch and you walk past and
eight of them go, oh look, it's

464
00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:56,280
the troll, it's the ogre man
from the story.

465
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,160
I cringe inside.
And I start crying.

466
00:17:58,360 --> 00:18:00,560
Yeah.
No, you luckily and you know,

467
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,760
but I cringe inside thinking Oh
my without context and someone

468
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,000
else walking past him, the
deputy head walks past or if or

469
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,240
if another class walks past and
think that's acceptable to do I

470
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,360
again, I am responsible for that
and I don't know if we go too

471
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:17,080
far in that respect.
Yeah, I think we probably do

472
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:18,960
because I feel cringe as well at
certain times.

473
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,400
There are sometimes when it's
fine and I always try and say to

474
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,320
the kids, like particularly your
like your kids.

475
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,880
I'll sometimes say to them, Oh
no, that was too far.

476
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,040
That wasn't a joke anymore, was
it?

477
00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:28,400
Like, this is not the right
place.

478
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,560
I'll say there's a time and a
place sometimes to them because

479
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:31,880
I need to understand that.
Yeah, walking through the

480
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,240
corridor and I'm walking past in
my professional mode of like

481
00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:36,640
this isn't jokey mode.
I'm also asking my class to be

482
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:37,960
silent.
Going to the buffet for the 7th.

483
00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,280
Time with my class behind me so
they can all make jokes at me

484
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,320
like I will sort of given the
look of like that's not funny

485
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,120
now.
It is funny in certain contexts,

486
00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:47,360
but it's not funny now, and
you're not getting.

487
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,520
I guess that's the point where
the learning has to come in.

488
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,200
You have to do the groundwork of
teaching them this.

489
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,240
You can't just joke with them
then tell them off when you

490
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,120
decide it's too far.
You can't just have a lovely

491
00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:00,360
little ratio.
Isn't that Mister, it's the ogre

492
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:01,880
underneath the bridge.
Isn't that really funny?

493
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,640
No, don't do that because then
child's confused has to come

494
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,320
with learning points.
And if you're going to have that

495
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,600
relationship with your children,
and I think this comes back full

496
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,600
circle to what you're saying.
You weren't sure what to do.

497
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,640
I think the best thing to do in
that situation is to say, oh, I

498
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:16,200
that's probably that's
inappropriate.

499
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,280
Yeah, it wasn't appropriate.
I think we go too far is my

500
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:19,840
conclusion.
I think me and you genuinely

501
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,880
probably do just go too far.
I think if there is some sort of

502
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,680
global line, we probably go over
it with our jokes at each others

503
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,600
expense.
Yeah, because the kids do that

504
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:28,600
because they don't fully get
the.

505
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,320
New ones.
If our gut instinct is that, oh,

506
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,360
it's a bit cringey that, you
know, I'm dismissing my children

507
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,480
for home time, Yeah, they're
calling you an ogre and their

508
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,880
parent hears them do it.
If I if I'm cringing at that,

509
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,000
yeah, it's probably too far.
Yeah.

510
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:42,840
So good news.
We've got three weeks left to

511
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:44,480
change, to change what we've
done for a decade.

512
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,640
That's the way our careers come
on.

513
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,000
We've got to be better teachers,
Dylan.

514
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:49,560
We've got to be better teachers.
So there we go.

515
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,240
That was supposed to be funny.
Let's have another funny

516
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:52,760
session, shall we?
Because I brought along

517
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,320
something with me today, Dylan.
Something that you have seen

518
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,280
before, probably lurking in my
house.

519
00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,240
I have.
Now for anyone that's not

520
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,600
watching, I'm currently holding
up a book called.

521
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,400
Around the farm I.
Love how it took you a good 2

522
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,120
seconds to read into it Called
yeah.

523
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,600
Do you know what I was doing?
I was looking at this top bit

524
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,360
here that says World of Eric
Carle and I was thinking, oh, is

525
00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:13,360
that part of the title from the
side, my side view?

526
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,920
And it's a child's book and it's
a lovely sound book, right?

527
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:18,880
And I'm thinking we could play a
little game, Dylan.

528
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,640
OK, because I've obviously
played with this book a lot and

529
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:23,760
it has made me chuckle over over
the time.

530
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:25,160
So.
So what there's there's buttons

531
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:26,920
to press with different animals.
Absolutely right.

532
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,200
So I can I can press a button
for the animal and it will make

533
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,120
a noise for an animal.
Can we have an example one I'll?

534
00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:33,120
Give you an example.
OK, let's let's do Cat.

535
00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:33,880
Ready.
So this is Cat.

536
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,720
Hopefully you can hear this.
Cat OK, so it says the name and

537
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:38,840
then does.
The sound does the sound.

538
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:40,520
So I thought we'd play a little
game where I'm going to do 5

539
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,160
rounds with you where I'm I'm
going to get you to guess what

540
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:45,480
the sound is for the animal
you're thinking.

541
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:46,680
Obviously I know what the sounds
I want.

542
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,240
To make.
This is the baby book, Dylan.

543
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,040
Sometimes they're a bit crazy,
so.

544
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,520
So it's just in terms of this
being an education podcast, this

545
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:54,840
is because kids are learning
young.

546
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:57,640
Yeah, there's some sort of
tenuous link.

547
00:20:57,880 --> 00:20:59,440
Make it up yourself.
Make it up yourself.

548
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:00,440
I just thought it'd be quite
funny.

549
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:01,480
So I'm going to start here,
Right?

550
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:02,960
I'm going to get.
You've got I need to do this

551
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:04,080
you.
Need to make the sound OK.

552
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:05,080
You've got to be convincing
though.

553
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,400
Don't like don't come on.
Right.

554
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,560
So I'd like you to guess, based
on this book, what sound does a

555
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:11,080
horse?
Am I?

556
00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:12,600
Am I OK?
So I'm going to do this sound,

557
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,000
yeah.
Yeah, what sound does a horse

558
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:19,000
make?
That's an angry horse, isn't it?

559
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:20,000
OK, let's see.
Harsh.

560
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,000
OK, the phone was off.
I'm gonna give you a score out

561
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,120
of 10 each time.
I'd say that's a solid 6 because

562
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:28,600
you were pretty much there.
It was just a bit Tony.

563
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,040
Right?
Let's go for let's go for a

564
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:31,360
little bit more simple.
I think for this one.

565
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,360
Can we just do duck?
Duck, rat, rat.

566
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,120
Oh, I mean, that's pretty good.
You did 3, not 2.

567
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,640
Obviously ducks only quacks
twice, so not three times.

568
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,600
So I'm going to give you I'm
going to give you a solid sort

569
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,080
of eight for that one.
So I think we've had a good

570
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,000
practise here.
I'll give you 3 more and a bit

571
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,120
more tricky.
OK, so I'd like you to guess

572
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,880
what you think this book will be
using for the sound of a

573
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,040
Caterpillar.
This is a sound book everybody,

574
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:00,720
and it has Caterpillar as one of
the options.

575
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,040
So always does the Caterpillar
make Dylan.

576
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,720
Caterpillar famously makes
hardly.

577
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,560
OK, wait a minute.
If I was a Caterpillar, what

578
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:12,120
sound would I make?
I would go what you doing eating

579
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:13,560
a leaf?
Eating a leaf.

580
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:15,520
Wow, Dillian.
We're pleased to know that

581
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,000
caterpillars.
Caterpillar what?

582
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,160
I pressed, I pressed this book
for the first time and I was

583
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,720
like a Caterpillar on earth.
What sound do they use for?

584
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,640
That is that kind of instrument.
Imagine designing a sound book

585
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,720
for kids and picking animals.
There are a lot of animals,

586
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,080
right?
I know it's a round of farms a

587
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:36,840
bit limited.
But also, this is Eric Carle,

588
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,240
the guy who has made a whole
career off the Very Hungry

589
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,280
Catapult.
So he was like.

590
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,880
I've had all these years to
think about a Caterpillar, maybe

591
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,280
like a hump, like a sound, like
you did, like eating.

592
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:47,960
Nah, just give him a little
tune.

593
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,480
Should we try a couple more?
Go on, let's try.

594
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:51,560
We've got.
Two more of them I'll.

595
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,080
Tell you what, yeah, let's go
for this is a good one.

596
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,560
Go for OWL.
An owl, Yeah.

597
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,920
OK, An owl goes hold, hold,
hold.

598
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,520
You had a.
Little bit of vibrato in your

599
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:06,640
voice then.
I'm an owl and I'm sleeping in

600
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,560
the daytime.
Hoot hoot.

601
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:10,880
So here's the owl.
Owl.

602
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,520
I was all right sounds.
Like sounds like a monkey.

603
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,080
It's.
A bit more like a monkey, yeah.

604
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,160
So that's pretty good.
Do a bonus one at the end.

605
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:22,560
I'm going to do the last one for
our round.

606
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,800
I'll give you like you know,
we've got a 5 out of 10 for that

607
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,320
one.
So my favourite 1 here.

608
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,920
I'd like you to be to guess what
sound a donkey makes.

609
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:31,320
A donkey.
A donkey?

610
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,960
OK, that's easy.
That's a pretty good donkey

611
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,560
impression, but I'm afraid
you're wrong.

612
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:44,840
Donkey.
Wait, can we play that again?

613
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:45,960
What you thinking?
Don't hang on.

614
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,480
Donkey.
Why have they done that?

615
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:56,320
What you thinking though?
Donkeys having a having a good

616
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,520
time pressed.
That donkey button, right for

617
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,480
the first time and I had to run
over because I was like, what

618
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,920
she got, what she got in her
hands right now, what she

619
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,320
looking at, what she listening?
To I think we've hit that one

620
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:08,640
last.
One last time, here's Donkey

621
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,680
Donkey, everybody in kids book,
Kids book, Kids book.

622
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,880
Donkey.
So that's 3D.

623
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,520
There we go.
Hey, River.

624
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:18,840
River.
Just joining reception for the

625
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:19,880
first time.
We're gonna do some animal

626
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,680
sounds.
We're gonna do some animal

627
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:22,440
sounds.
Rivi.

628
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,600
So, Rivi.
Oh, we got donkey here.

629
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,040
What's that?
I'm just gonna make a phone

630
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:29,440
call.
Does anyone know what noise a

631
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,760
donkey makes with my child?
Yeah, getting sent home.

632
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,000
Honestly, I'm gonna leave you
one more just just for fun.

633
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,800
Now there's another one a bit
like the Caterpillar, right?

634
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,000
So, I mean, yeah, you can guess
if you want, but what?

635
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,080
What noise do you think?
A turtle.

636
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,160
So I'm going to do what I think
the book is going to do.

637
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:42,120
What do you think?
The books, I think.

638
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,000
Based on what it did for a
Caterpillar, I reckon this book

639
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,480
goes something like for a
turtle.

640
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,600
Doom Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo.
That's actually.

641
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,920
Quite good, but yeah.
Turtle.

642
00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,320
Yeah, I can see where you did
that.

643
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,680
That's probably a. 10 out of 10.
I'll give that A10, I'll give

644
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,360
you a 10 out of 10 and you won
the game all.

645
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:04,960
Right, thanks so much.
That is the most biggest thing

646
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,040
I've ever heard.
So right now get you get your

647
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,880
animal book around the farm.
Eric Carle, if you want to know

648
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,640
what a donkey sounds like.
Right, Let's play the Jingle.

649
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:18,680
I'm getting to watch out end of
the summer time, absolute chaos.

650
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,240
You've got some affairs coming
up.

651
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,840
You've got end of year
performances for year 6 to catch

652
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,400
up on, a million things to do.
If you're moving classroom as

653
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:26,640
well, let's not even go into
that.

654
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:27,880
Maybe we can talk about that
next week.

655
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,760
But a big thing that is defining
a lot of people's end of year

656
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,040
panic and chaos and worry is the
appraisal process.

657
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,800
Even that word, that word
appraisal just makes me like,

658
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,080
oh, it's just what deflating
word?

659
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:44,120
It can be really deflated, got
it?

660
00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:45,760
You just think you've got
through everything, you've got

661
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,680
all of your data done, all your
tests are done, you get sorted.

662
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,560
We're going to sit down and talk
about it for three hours are.

663
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:51,760
You worried about your appraisal
this year?

664
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:56,720
Absolutely not, Someone said to
me because we're leaving, Yeah.

665
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:58,480
And they said because your
appraisal doesn't matter

666
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,440
anymore.
How many rounders games are you

667
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,760
playing?
Your lesson are.

668
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:04,800
You going to do your job?
Yeah, at all.

669
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:06,560
Are you even going to turn?
Up.

670
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,160
Listen, what's been unbelievable
for me in the last couple of

671
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,200
weeks is how many lessons have
just happened to be outdoors in

672
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,600
the shade.
What's that?

673
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,280
I've got a lesson on shape.
We're going on a shape hunter.

674
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,000
Yeah.
How we go kids clipboards.

675
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:20,760
We did that yesterday and the
day before.

676
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,840
What's that?
We've got another lesson on

677
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,400
shape today.
How funny.

678
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,000
Put Mr. Price, the other classes
are learning how to tell the

679
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,280
time.
Looks like a Pentagon to me.

680
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,160
Let's go find X.
Let's go make a sundial outside

681
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,640
with the shadows.
I just want to know how to read

682
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:35,800
a clock.
Listen, listen.

683
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,080
It's this all around this kid.
You decide.

684
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,200
Yeah, if only it was like that.
Funny enough, we do actually

685
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,720
care about our jobs, so
appraisals aren't the only thing

686
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,400
making us do our jobs properly.
No.

687
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,320
And I guess before we dive into
appraisals in general, I guess

688
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,600
it opens up this wider question.
OK.

689
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,960
And it's just something that I
have really struggled with my

690
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,240
whole career.
Is this almost how schools value

691
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,400
good teaching?
What do they base it on?

692
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,640
Is it a tick box exercise where
you've got to be able to show

693
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,840
that you're doing something
particularly well and tick it

694
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,360
off because that's a triple
backed display in that room.

695
00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:14,440
And then you've done this mini
plenary 3 times in each lesson

696
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,840
and then you've filled out these
different forms for assessment

697
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:22,280
because that's easier to track.
So trackable things versus good

698
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,400
teaching relationships with your
children and then progress as

699
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:26,640
well.
LinkedIn somewhere?

700
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,160
What do you think, Dylan?
In a system, hang on a minute.

701
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,840
In a system where for the
children everything is just what

702
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,000
can we track, what assessment
can we track?

703
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,920
And nothing's holistic, it's
just what maths data, what do

704
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,040
you reckon that it is for
teachers?

705
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,560
And the appraisal, I tell you
what it is, it's exactly the

706
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:45,800
same.
It is, I think it is.

707
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,800
I think I'm, I'm sure if you're
listening, you're like, my

708
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,840
school doesn't do this.
You're probably in the minority

709
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,720
because I think it's quite
normal for schools to have a

710
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,600
very, very tick boxy kind of
appraisal system.

711
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,240
My biggest problem with that is
that it feels like there's been

712
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,920
more and more and more of a
disconnect as schools move down

713
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,600
the road of what's easier to
track and tick and say it's

714
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,760
happening in classrooms or say
that teachers are doing.

715
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,840
I feel like we're moving more
and more away from what actually

716
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,280
is having the best impact on the
children.

717
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:15,240
What is actually a good teacher?
What do we see in traits of what

718
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:16,720
we want in front of the
children?

719
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,840
And maybe again, maybe I'm
biassed because I've, I value

720
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,720
the things that I do.
Obviously that's why I do them.

721
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,560
So I value things like creating
relationships with the children.

722
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,240
How do we track that?
I value things like children

723
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:29,960
being happy when they come into
my classroom.

724
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:35,400
I had a visitor last week come
into my classroom and that

725
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,080
visitor came in.
It was from an external company.

726
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,800
An organisation came in to
observe a child for a potential

727
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,480
diagnosis in the future.
But I, I taught my maths lesson

728
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,080
how I always teach my maths
lesson, which is kind of off

729
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,400
script because I feel like I'm
there now for my maths.

730
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,360
Yeah, I've got a smart notebook
on the board.

731
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,640
But half the time I honestly
just make stuff up because I

732
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,600
think, all right, OK, actually,
next, let's do this instead.

733
00:28:58,840 --> 00:28:59,960
You need to be more practise
with that.

734
00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:02,360
Let's move and do that.
It's very ad Lib adaptable.

735
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,360
It's very adaptable because
that's what I feel like my

736
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,120
strength is as an experienced
teacher.

737
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,480
I know what the children need to
do by the end of the lesson and

738
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:09,960
I'm going to get there however I
need to.

739
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,480
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I, I feel like I can do that.

740
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,600
And I felt like I taught a
really good lesson because I

741
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,280
know my class so well at this
point.

742
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,080
And what was so nice was that
when I finished that lesson,

743
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,240
that person caught up with the
assistant head and gave really

744
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,400
glowing feedback and, and just,
you know, nothing part of it.

745
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,240
They weren't there to watch me,
but they just said, well, he's a

746
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,600
really good teacher, you know,
because the, the child, the

747
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:33,720
children are getting on really
well.

748
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,120
They're learning loads, blah,
blah, blah.

749
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,680
And the head, the assistant head
fed that back to me.

750
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:39,520
It felt nice.
I felt, you know, not

751
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,760
vindicated, but it's nice to
hear when someone else says what

752
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:43,480
you're doing is really.
Good.

753
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,040
You're doing a good job.
Yeah, because it can be quite

754
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,480
isolating as a teacher in a
classroom with just children and

755
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,160
you're like, you know, you're
banking on children making

756
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:50,360
progress.
So when someone else says it,

757
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,080
it's really nice.
I tell you what though, if that

758
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,840
lesson was picked up and put
into a different school system

759
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,960
and was maybe observed or was
used as a way to judge me and it

760
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,360
was a tick box exercise, I would
not have ticked 75% of the

761
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:05,200
boxes.
Yeah, yeah.

762
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:06,520
OK.
Because I would not have been

763
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,840
using my smart.
I would not have been your time

764
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,520
management soft.
You didn't press the timer.

765
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,760
There wasn't a 1 1/2 minute
timer on the board for the

766
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,280
children.
You didn't update your your

767
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,600
working wall mid lesson and our
and our policy is you must

768
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,080
update the working wall once per
lesson.

769
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,200
Yeah, you have to, because I can
take that off and then decide

770
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,000
that you're a good teacher.
Do you know what?

771
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,320
There was so much in my lesson
that was embedded in

772
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:31,000
relationships, was embedded in
unbelievable, unbelievably deep

773
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,880
understanding of the curriculum
because I've been doing it for

774
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,680
so long.
There was so much embedded in

775
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,880
things that you cannot track.
That made it a really good

776
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,120
lesson for my children to make
really good progress.

777
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,240
And do you know what?
There wasn't anything in the

778
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,320
book eater at the end.
We did it on scrap paper.

779
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,280
It was a lesson all about
measuring and drawing lines

780
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,400
accurately.
And we made links back to

781
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,360
horizontal and vertical.
That wasn't on the slide.

782
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,720
That was just me going, well, we
did that last week is a nice

783
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,120
little chance to recap that and
build everything in.

784
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,720
It was such a good lesson
because that's my craft and what

785
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,000
I built.
And it kind of when I when we

786
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,080
talked about doing an appraisal
podcast, I thought to myself,

787
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,440
that was one of the best lessons
I've taught this year genuinely.

788
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,560
And it would have been one of
the worst lessons based on a lot

789
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,960
of appraisal forms I've seen.
That can't be right.

790
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:15,920
Yeah, I agree, because I think
you know what, I reckon there

791
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,760
are lots of people out there
that have the best of intentions

792
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:18,760
with their appraisal system as
well.

793
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,280
I reckon there's a lot of head
teachers who genuinely, really,

794
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,120
really want to like want to be
able to do this and, and observe

795
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,440
this sort of stuff.
But how do you put it into a

796
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,200
target?
Like how do you appraisal

797
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,760
systems are limited by you have
to write down some words and a

798
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,800
Word document and it has to be
something actionable that you

799
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,600
can measure.
How do you do it?

800
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,520
So you can see why they get
ignored, right?

801
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,960
No one's going to put your
target this year is to be really

802
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:41,200
adaptable.
Yeah.

803
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,360
More adaptable than before.
Yeah.

804
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:45,400
Like what?
How do you measure that?

805
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,280
What do you mean?
Like it doesn't make any sense.

806
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,920
Completely.
And I think my job, I

807
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,960
fundamentally see my job as
delivering the curriculum in a

808
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,120
way that inspires my children to
want to learn.

809
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,600
OK.
And that inspiration part's huge

810
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,080
to me.
And listen, when it comes to

811
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,280
when it comes to an appraisal,
how's that written down?

812
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,240
Like you said, you I can inspire
children as much as I can until

813
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,320
the cows come home.
They could be the happiest

814
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:09,480
they've ever been in a maths
lesson.

815
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,920
I pride myself, and I know you
do too, on how we take children

816
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,280
who aren't necessarily
unbelievably good at maths or

817
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,040
have the best relationship with
the subject.

818
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,880
But by the time they finish the
year with me and my job share

819
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,680
who are both really passionate
about maths, they would love the

820
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,120
subject.
They work really hard, they've

821
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,880
improved massively and yeah,
that data can kind of tick box

822
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,840
my way through an appraisal and
can say, Oh well done, you've

823
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,120
made this data.
Yeah, but you know, OK, cool.

824
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:38,880
That's great.
But that's such a small part of

825
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,480
what I.
Care about the kids love maths

826
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,600
now can we measure that?
Can we measure how many kids

827
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,480
love maths at the start of my
year and then and then love

828
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:45,560
maths?
At the end.

829
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:47,680
Of the year, be part of it.
But I think my problem with

830
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,560
appraisal you're kind of getting
at all of this is it it goes

831
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,720
down this very one way road to
towards compliance.

832
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,320
It's just like, OK, what can we
measure?

833
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,240
And therefore if we can measure
it, it's just about whether

834
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,200
they're compliant or not.
It's just, it's just, it doesn't

835
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,160
matter about how creative you
are, doesn't matter any of these

836
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,000
other things, doesn't matter
about the relationships you make

837
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,800
with the children, the stuff
that doesn't impact data.

838
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,520
It's just how compliant are you?
What, what can we do instead of

839
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,880
instead of seeing how like how
nicely they talk to their

840
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,840
children?
Oh, we could, we could see if

841
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,800
they put that display up
probably or not, because that's

842
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,680
something we can measure and
then we can make it sound really

843
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:20,840
important when actually it's
not.

844
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,360
It's just not important at all.
Like it really isn't at all

845
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,080
important to what a display
looks like.

846
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:26,920
Did you?
Stick to the complete guidelines

847
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,240
that we've got for lessons and
how they have to be only 7

848
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,120
minutes long when it comes to
the starter and then 8 minutes

849
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,080
long and then we didn't see
partner talk 17 times.

850
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,720
Come on it.
Goes back to that, that I've

851
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,960
told the story a few weeks ago
of when I was in my NQT my

852
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,240
second year when the executive
head came into my classroom mid

853
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,200
lesson and just tore down one of
my things on my display because

854
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:46,280
it was from last term and I
hadn't.

855
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,680
And I'm follow the policy.
You have to have this terms RE

856
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,640
core value on the thing and then
it was last term.

857
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,840
You haven't changed it yet, but
I was in the middle of teaching

858
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,200
a really good lesson.
I was like, could you come in

859
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,200
and like, maybe praise me 'cause
I've got this whole front row

860
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,320
who, who you said are like
really misbehaved, completely

861
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,400
captivated by what I'm telling
them about geometry.

862
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,760
Like come on, like.
I'm doing a lesson on similes

863
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,840
and the kids are paying
attention to me.

864
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:08,239
Is this not enough for your
tick?

865
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:09,920
Box that you've got.
But yeah, you're right though,

866
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,679
'cause it doesn't, most
appraisal systems don't truly

867
00:34:13,679 --> 00:34:15,800
reward what what it should
reward.

868
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,159
The whole point of appraisal is
if you're doing really well in

869
00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:20,080
your job, like in any system,
isn't it?

870
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:21,840
Are you doing your job really
well?

871
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,960
Are you doing doing your job
better than average?

872
00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:26,800
If you are, we have this
appraisal system built in and it

873
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,679
and normally it impacts your pay
like in the private sector and

874
00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:31,080
in and this sector, right?
Yeah.

875
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,120
It doesn't measure it though
because it's just tick boxy

876
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,679
stuff that doesn't determine
whether you're a good teacher or

877
00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:36,480
not.
Completely agree.

878
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,040
And I think it's often
weaponized.

879
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,560
It's often weaponized this this
whole process because this is

880
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,320
something we're going to bring
up in general.

881
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,880
I've got a few horror stories
from listeners and they're you

882
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,679
need to listen to this whole
thing about how they were judged

883
00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:51,880
on something completely
irrelevant.

884
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:52,960
And we'll come on to that in a
second.

885
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:58,000
But we've got this system
essentially with appraisals that

886
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,680
it's been built in for so long
that it's linked to pay.

887
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,680
So you have to meet your
appraisal target because if you

888
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,600
don't meet your appraisal
target, you won't go up a pay

889
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,280
scale.
And that was changed, that was

890
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,160
binned in 2024 as a requirement.
Oh.

891
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:13,520
I didn't even know.
This so, yeah.

892
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,200
So before that, OK, you had
performance related pay.

893
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:20,960
Yeah, in the STPCD, the literal
document, the teachers go off.

894
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,560
Yeah, it has now said it is not
a requirement anymore for

895
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:29,200
schools to have performance
related pay when it comes to

896
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:30,880
moving through pay bands.
That's cool.

897
00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:33,360
That's great.
It's not the case in a lot of

898
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,160
schools.
A lot of schools still still

899
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:38,240
stick to the old system.
Unfortunately, like we know with

900
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:41,040
many academies who have their
own way of doing things, they

901
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,120
don't have to follow the rules.
They can do what they want.

902
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,160
They can make up pay bands.
They can have restricted

903
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,560
policies when it comes to
performance related pay.

904
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,480
Not everyone's changed to the
system where your pay isn't.

905
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,960
Based on how well you do in an
appraisal system, which is

906
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:58,240
completely random, seemingly
from one school the next.

907
00:35:58,240 --> 00:35:59,520
Exactly.
You get some schools.

908
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,520
Honestly, the appraisal system
doesn't even exist.

909
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,400
Yeah, I know there are schools
that, I mean, our school's

910
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,000
pretty relaxed.
I think our appraisal system is

911
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,760
way more chilled out because I
think our head teacher

912
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:10,600
understands more about what
we're saying and can see the

913
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:15,280
flaws of an appraisal system
that has to by definition beyond

914
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,120
like things they can tick, tick
boxes.

915
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,200
Whereas we've worked in schools
where it is like, it was like

916
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:25,080
A6000 page tick box document
and, and almost none of it

917
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,800
corresponded to being a good
teacher or not.

918
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,160
And I was like, Oh my God, I
want to play this game.

919
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,560
Do you remember working in our
first school where we had to

920
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,360
prepare like almost like a
folder of evidence every year

921
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,280
when it came to an appraisal to
back up that we'd met certain

922
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,160
parts of it?
What teacher has time for that?

923
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,000
Are you insane?
If you have created a system of

924
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,960
an appraisal where teachers have
to go off and gather and collect

925
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,280
evidence and put it together
into a folder to justify them

926
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,800
going up a pay point, what are
you doing?

927
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,360
Because not only is that just
ridiculous, it's also taking

928
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,000
away your teachers time when
they could be making better

929
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,280
lessons.
For you and your children, I

930
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:02,840
hate to tell you, but that
happens in a lot of schools

931
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:03,640
still.
It's somebody.

932
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,800
It's still quite normal that
that that happens.

933
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,240
You press something, might be a
whole folder, but it's very

934
00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:10,920
normal that people you know will
prepare a document of some sort

935
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:12,400
or collate a few bits of
evidence.

936
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:13,760
It's alright.
We got this system where you

937
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,040
just in your own time.
Yeah, just a crack on.

938
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,080
No, it won't affect how it would
not like a normal job where me

939
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:20,960
asking you to do something will
affect the deadlines for the

940
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,280
other things you've got to do.
It's fine.

941
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:23,960
Because you just do it in the
evening, in your own time.

942
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,120
Because that's teaching, right?
We love the kids, you know?

943
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,360
Do you know what I don't?
I don't love doing an appraisal.

944
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,880
I love the children.
This is not impacting it at all.

945
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,880
Just pay your teachers.
Honestly, there's got to be some

946
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,240
reward for staying at the job
for that long.

947
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:38,520
I've got a stat for you, Bill,
OK.

948
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,880
And this one comes straight from
an Ofsted annual report 2023.

949
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:41,920
And I thought it was really
interesting.

950
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,600
So it said 67% of teachers felt
that their school's appraisal

951
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:50,120
system placed more emphasis on
consistency than on creativity

952
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,280
or pedagogy.
So exactly what we're saying.

953
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,760
That is so true.
Yeah, that that that's OK.

954
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,240
We we could just not spoke for 5
minutes.

955
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:58,480
Said that, but you already agree
with that.

956
00:37:58,480 --> 00:37:59,720
Apparently, yeah, because that
consists.

957
00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:01,080
It's so true.
It's a consistency.

958
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,560
It's like, what if not every
single person in this whole

959
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,320
school is doing an RE working
wall?

960
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,720
How else could we justify that
RE's importance, important for

961
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:09,640
our school?
Like, come on, can you go like,

962
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,120
can you just think about it for
three minutes?

963
00:38:11,240 --> 00:38:13,720
Like is there a way that we
could just talk to another adult

964
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:16,440
and say, Oh yeah, we we really
value this because of that and

965
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,680
not because of this tick box
exercise that looks exactly the

966
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,000
same in all of the schools?
Yeah, I think it's, it's

967
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,320
representative of what's
happened in a lot of schools in

968
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:30,440
my opinion, where they move to
being compliant like you said,

969
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,760
and it moves to a system where
it's seen as a positive that you

970
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:40,000
can walk through 123456
classrooms in a row and see

971
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,200
exactly the same thing going on.
See the teacher at the front

972
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,000
delivering lessons in the same
way, See them at the same point

973
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:47,960
of the lesson, see them doing
the same thing.

974
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:49,800
The children sat behaved in the
same way.

975
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,640
It's kind of dystopian to me to
think that's automatically a

976
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,280
good thing because that by
definition, going through 678

977
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,840
classes, that's about 200
individual people.

978
00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:01,440
Yeah.
And if you are doing the exact

979
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,440
same thing all the time and
everything looks exactly the

980
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,760
same, it's because it's papering
out for something.

981
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:08,680
There's no way that happens
naturally.

982
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,960
Well, there's no way that that
goes on as the best way of doing

983
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:12,880
stuff.
Yeah, for sure.

984
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:14,760
I mean, literally go back to
your analogy about your lesson,

985
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:15,920
right?
The guy, the one that the guy

986
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,240
complimented, I'm sure it felt
really good.

987
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,840
But the reason that lesson was
good, realistically, is because

988
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,800
you were creative and your
pedagogy is really strong.

989
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,200
You knew you had to adapt on the
spot because you've got loads of

990
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,640
experience and your pedagogy is
good and you were creative.

991
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,160
You thought of different ways.
All right, I'll tell you what,

992
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:29,320
this is great.
Link to parallel lines.

993
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:30,880
I'm going to do some little
things because I'm creative.

994
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,320
I'm creating on the spot.
Yeah, yeah, completely.

995
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,200
And I can see why I can.
I can genuinely see why we moved

996
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,760
to this system that's tick boxy
from the top down.

997
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,480
It's more control and it's
easier to manage.

998
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:43,000
But I think it's at the
detriment.

999
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,880
I really do think it's at the
detriment of good quality

1000
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:46,200
teaching.
By the end of the end of this

1001
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,240
episode, we'll talk about some
solutions and talk about like

1002
00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:50,280
our ideas of how we think the
appraisal system could be

1003
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:51,960
better.
But I think we should start with

1004
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:53,720
you.
You kind of tease at some horror

1005
00:39:53,720 --> 00:39:55,000
stories.
I'm kind of being, I'm kind of

1006
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:56,640
curious to see what they are
because you've gone away and

1007
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:58,000
found these families.
Yourself.

1008
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,160
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
These are from listeners, so.

1009
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,280
Firstly, I want to talk about is
Teacher Standard eight OK?

1010
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,000
It's a big, big thing.
And if you you went for your

1011
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,000
training, if you're a teacher,
you'd have heard of Teacher

1012
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,480
Standard 8.
I'm just going to read out loud

1013
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,600
Teacher Standard 8 now so we all
know what it is before we go

1014
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,040
into and I just wanted to be
thinking about as I read it, how

1015
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,920
this might be used and abused in
the appraisal system.

1016
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,560
So let's have a read Teacher
Standard 8 Fulfil wider

1017
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,960
professional responsibilities
Develop effective professional

1018
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,440
relationships with colleagues,
knowing how and when to draw on

1019
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,920
a device and specialist support.
Deploy support staff

1020
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,280
effectively.
Take responsibility for

1021
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,720
improving teaching through
appropriate professional

1022
00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:43,600
development, responding to
advice and feedback from

1023
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,400
colleagues.
Communicate effectively with

1024
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,000
parents with regard to pupils
achievement and well-being.

1025
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,200
That's bad, by the way, because
I genuinely didn't realise it

1026
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,120
was that long.
I thought it was 3 words.

1027
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,920
Fulfil wider responsibilities.
It's often headlines like that.

1028
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:00,280
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But doesn't that just show

1029
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:01,600
though?
And the fact that I thought that

1030
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,720
as well probably leads on nicely
to what you're about to say,

1031
00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:04,960
which is the bit that gets
abused.

1032
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:06,720
Right.
This is the problem because this

1033
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:08,920
is simplified that what I've
just read there is simplified

1034
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,320
often as fulfil wider
responsibilities and you just

1035
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,320
know from a top down point of
view and you're trying to get as

1036
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,600
much as you can out your stuff.
You've got to take that box lets

1037
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,200
me read this story to.
You am I going to cringe?

1038
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:23,800
A little bit because it's
something we've mentioned a lot.

1039
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:25,080
Exactly This is why I want to
read it.

1040
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:26,240
Exactly what we've mentioned
before.

1041
00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:27,600
Hayden and Hayden.
Love the pod.

1042
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,960
It's kept me sane this year.
Just wanted to share this

1043
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,840
absolute joke straight in from
my appraisal last year I was

1044
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:38,240
told I hadn't met teacher
standard 8 because hmm let me

1045
00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:40,520
think, was it because I didn't
deplore my support I've

1046
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,120
effectively.
I didn't talk to any parents

1047
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,040
ever.
Yeah, I didn't talk to any

1048
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:44,760
parents.
I didn't take on any advice or

1049
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,080
look for professional
relationships.

1050
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,840
My God, I didn't meet teach
Standard 8 apparently because I

1051
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:50,440
hadn't helped out of any of the
school discos.

1052
00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:51,360
Do you know?
I knew it.

1053
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,400
I knew you were gonna say that.
I knew you were gonna say the

1054
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,200
discos.
It's always the discos it.

1055
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,560
Became a running meme online
like 10 years ago.

1056
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:58,720
But you know why it became a
running meme?

1057
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:00,800
Because it happened.
Yes, I know people are told they

1058
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,720
are not meeting teacher
standards because they're not

1059
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:04,920
helping out to sell disco.
You didn't.

1060
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:06,760
He didn't come to the fun run.
Yeah.

1061
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,160
He didn't do.
No, no, wait, let me, let me

1062
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:10,720
read this more.
Yeah, this is insane.

1063
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,040
So this, this is the same
person.

1064
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,800
Now, I'd mentored an ECT all
year.

1065
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:17,400
How much time that takes up?
Yeah.

1066
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,400
Ran a weekly science club, LED
geography across the whole

1067
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,760
school.
But apparently that wasn't

1068
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,640
enough because I didn't shake a
tin at the PTA quiz night or

1069
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:28,880
stay behind for glitter tattoos
at the Christmas fair.

1070
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,680
That's mad insane.
And this is what I want to get

1071
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,280
at.
This person has clearly gone

1072
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,280
above and beyond in many ways.
OK?

1073
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,320
This person LED geography across
the whole school.

1074
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,240
Yeah, I think that maybe you
could kind of draw and teach.

1075
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:42,480
Presumably for no pay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, almost

1076
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,080
definitely.
Also in there, they mentioned

1077
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,040
about how they've gone on
residential trips, right?

1078
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:49,800
They've done extra things
outside.

1079
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,200
They've done their science club
every year.

1080
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,880
But what winds me up is this.
I don't think those things

1081
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:57,920
should be used as a counter
argument.

1082
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,520
If you're sat in an appraisal
being told you haven't met

1083
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:01,880
teacher standard 8 because you
didn't do it.

1084
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:03,480
This guy right?
Don't don't engage with.

1085
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,280
It it's because you're kind of
playing into the same you're.

1086
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,800
Playing the game you're saying
no, I have met teacher standard

1087
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:08,920
8 because I did a science
you're.

1088
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:10,600
Agreeing what teacher standard 8
is then which?

1089
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,760
Which is not right.
It's not what Teacher Standard 8

1090
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:14,720
is.
Yeah, read Teacher Standard 8.

1091
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:16,720
And do you know what?
If you have this same problem

1092
00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:19,800
with SLT or a member of stuff,
you can be completely calm about

1093
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,120
it.
Print it off on a slip of paper.

1094
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,680
Yeah, take it in with you and
read it, because there is

1095
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,440
absolutely zero part of Teacher
Standard 8 that has anything to

1096
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,160
do with having to give up your
own free time in the evenings to

1097
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:34,560
do discos and things.
Yeah, I agree.

1098
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:35,480
There's nothing.
Yeah.

1099
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,240
And people always come back to
me and say, do you know what?

1100
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:41,040
Most people are very supportive.
I've got to say that.

1101
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:42,920
But people always have the
loudest people are the most at

1102
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:44,840
night.
And they go, well, how would we

1103
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:46,840
have a disco then?
So hey, how would we have a

1104
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,360
disco if the teachers don't do
it?

1105
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,520
I don't know paid pay people to
do it.

1106
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,240
Yeah, or or do you know or don't
do it.

1107
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,880
Yeah, just don't.
Yeah, yeah, Like, yeah.

1108
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,360
How do we get this lovely thing
without the free labour?

1109
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,680
Do you know what would be good?
It would be great, wouldn't we,

1110
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,880
if I could exploit free labour
in lots of lots of different

1111
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:03,080
aspects.
Haven't got any pyramids in a

1112
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,640
while either, like come on.
How on earth do we get the

1113
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,800
Pyramids of Giza?
We don't have slavery, Hayden.

1114
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:10,760
Maybe we don't.
We just don't get them.

1115
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,080
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you know what?

1116
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,760
If you think your child would
benefit massively from a disco,

1117
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:16,840
which I think they would.
The kids love discos.

1118
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:18,360
I absolutely love.
It's like the, like you said

1119
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,040
about residentials.
Do you want to?

1120
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,040
I want kids to have discos.
Run it yourself.

1121
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:23,760
Yeah, yeah.
What is?

1122
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,000
What is?
What has it got to?

1123
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,080
Do we're all with me?
Yeah.

1124
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,760
But here's the baseline, right?
Parent and the teacher both

1125
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,040
working jobs in the day.
Yeah.

1126
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:30,920
Yeah.
What?

1127
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,480
OK, the child is yours, not the
teachers.

1128
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,760
But you're expecting the teacher
to do their free time for free,

1129
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,320
for no money to run the disco,
not you.

1130
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:40,360
Yeah, that's quite a funny
analogy, isn't it?

1131
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,720
But I tell you what they did and
come back to, you know, if I

1132
00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:45,000
ultimately though, if I went on
this residential, which I did

1133
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,280
last week and I came back this
week and I had an appraisal and

1134
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,160
they were like, I'm not sure we
can take off the old teacher

1135
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,920
Standard 8 because I hadn't done
because I haven't done any

1136
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,280
discos across countries this
year, which I haven't, but I've

1137
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,000
just but I've just been on
afraid of residential.

1138
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:00,560
I'd be like, are you having a
are you having a lot?

1139
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,600
It'd be hard not to fall into
the game and be like or like, do

1140
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,200
you know where I was the last
few days and what I was doing

1141
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,560
for no extra pay like.
Come on.

1142
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,960
And this is where it can be so
vaguely interpreted, but

1143
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,800
incorrectly interpreted.
It's just wrong.

1144
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,280
If someone is using teacher
standard 8 to beat you with a

1145
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,520
stick and say you're not getting
pay progression because you

1146
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,160
didn't go to a disco, tell them
where to go.

1147
00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:32,120
Yeah, and tell them to cost.
Three weeks left, baby.

1148
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,200
Three weeks left.
Oh dear, we're going.

1149
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,160
To beat that.
The mask is slipping.

1150
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:39,400
I'm sweating the idea of not
being.

1151
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,160
Beat.
So yeah, it's being beat.

1152
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:46,080
OK, right.
I've got one more from another

1153
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,040
listening message and this is
kind of making a different

1154
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:49,840
point.
And this I really feel strong

1155
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,280
about this as well.
When you sit an appraisal, by

1156
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:53,960
the way, you still laughing?
I'm still laughing.

1157
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:56,640
Yeah.
When you do an appraisal, it's

1158
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,600
often obviously talk about the
end of the year.

1159
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,200
You go back and see appraisal,
you look at your targets and you

1160
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:02,640
set your targets at the start of
the year.

1161
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,480
So you often sit with whoever it
is doing your appraisal, usually

1162
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,000
a member of SLT, and you come up
with some targets.

1163
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,200
And quite often there's like two
or three targets. 1 might be a

1164
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,680
whole school wide target that
everyone's trying to work

1165
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,760
towards. 1 might be a personal
target that's more to do with

1166
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,400
your aims and your professional
development and if you need a

1167
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,120
subject craft.
And a third one will be to do

1168
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,560
with the subject that you need.
But at the start of the year you

1169
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,160
have to sit down with a member
of SLT and decide your targets.

1170
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,680
So this is about that.
Hi, Bose.

1171
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,080
I've got one for you about
appraisals.

1172
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,440
At the start of the year, my
line manager and I both agreed

1173
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,600
that one of my performance
targets was essentially

1174
00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:41,560
unachievable.
So they sat there and they said,

1175
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:43,320
look, we'll put this down as a
target.

1176
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,840
We, we know it's very unlikely
that we'll get to this target,

1177
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,160
but it was under the guise, as
she puts it, as a stretch

1178
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:51,320
target.
And I've had a stretch.

1179
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:52,800
Target that's that's a common
term.

1180
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,920
Nothing wrong with a stretch
target when in terms of you know

1181
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,400
you want to aim for the absolute
top, and if you come a bit short

1182
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,400
then you know what, that's fine.
Yeah, you're not going to

1183
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:02,840
penalise.
The idea is you're not penalised

1184
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:03,480
though, right?
Let's.

1185
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,000
See, so I said at the point this
isn't realistic and she

1186
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,960
literally said, I know, but it
has to be that stretch target.

1187
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,840
Surprise, surprise comes the end
of the year and I didn't hit it.

1188
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,080
But guess what?
They used this fact of me not

1189
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:19,560
meeting this target.
Just stop.

1190
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:21,400
Just stop.
I I know.

1191
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,640
As a way to block my.
Pay progression I see.

1192
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,720
I, I, I felt it coming.
Even though they both sat there

1193
00:47:29,720 --> 00:47:32,160
at the start of the year and
said we both know this.

1194
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:33,600
Look, we've seen the data.
Yeah.

1195
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,200
This is unreasonable to say 80%
of the children are expected in

1196
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:37,400
their writing.
I mean, they're coming up with

1197
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,560
12%.
But, you know, it's a stretch

1198
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,200
target.
Oh, I I do actually.

1199
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,360
Oh.
That target that you're putting

1200
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,440
down for me, that's, that's not
going to work, right?

1201
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,080
That's, that's got to be a
stretch target.

1202
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:50,240
I mean, that's unreasonable,
right?

1203
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,760
So next year when, when I sorry,
I'm not, I'm not playing into

1204
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,160
your role here because I was
thinking too deeply about this,

1205
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:58,920
about the fact that inflation
goes up, everything cost of

1206
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:00,400
everything goes up.
So this person sat there

1207
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,000
thinking, so next year when I
can't afford to do certain

1208
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:04,800
things anymore, that that's just
OK.

1209
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:06,800
Because we decided there was a
stretch target.

1210
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,040
Yeah, when it is linked to pay,
stretch targets can get in the

1211
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:11,200
bin.
It's one or the other.

1212
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:12,840
Yeah, sure.
Have stretch targets, have

1213
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,080
higher aspirations, push your
kids as much as you can.

1214
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,120
Clearly a really good thing.
Yeah, not saying put it in the

1215
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,440
bin for no reason.
What I'm saying is then if that

1216
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,480
becomes the target and if you
miss that stretch target because

1217
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:25,240
you had really high aspirations
for your class.

1218
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,680
You're penalised, yeah, that's
that doesn't work.

1219
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:29,680
You're.
Penalised for having higher

1220
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,200
standards and pushing children
to the Max they possibly can be

1221
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,560
because you came a bit short.
Reach for the stars, and if you

1222
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,560
only get to the moon, that's
great, but if you only get to

1223
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,320
the moon, you're fired.
Sorry.

1224
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:39,680
What?
I can't.

1225
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:40,760
I was never going to reach the
stars.

1226
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,520
Yeah, we know.
We know you weren't.

1227
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,760
I literally told you the start
of the idiot what you're gonna

1228
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:46,040
do about it.
I told you no, no, no.

1229
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:46,840
Don't get paid.
No.

1230
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:47,400
No.
Completely.

1231
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,240
Completely, absolutely.
But I guess all of the top dogs

1232
00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:53,320
are gonna get all their bonuses
at the top of the SLD.

1233
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:57,600
Jane Yeah, Very, very.
Look, it's a bit depressing.

1234
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,960
It's sad because I see amazing
professionals who go above and

1235
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,600
beyond all the time in many
different ways and different

1236
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,000
aspects and have the best
outcomes for the children in

1237
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,520
their mind all the time are
being stunted by this whole

1238
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,520
appraisal system and it just, it
just doesn't work.

1239
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,800
So, Dylan, there's one other
aspect of appraisals, right?

1240
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:16,920
That just even in the best of
systems, because I, because I

1241
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,280
get it, right, some schools do
genuinely try hard to either

1242
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,640
just not take it that seriously
because they know there's a

1243
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,000
flawed system, or they're
genuinely trying to make it

1244
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:26,520
fair.
And, and not just about tick

1245
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:27,840
boxing, which is basically
impossible.

1246
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,760
As, as we've established, one of
the things that I find really,

1247
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,280
really tricky to get my head
around is the fact that in so

1248
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,960
many schools, they'll leave it
to the last minute.

1249
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:37,960
You get to that July appraisal,
right?

1250
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:40,400
And then they decide that
there's been a problem all year,

1251
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,400
but there's been no feedback
across the year.

1252
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:44,280
Suddenly, oh, your days are at
the end of the year.

1253
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,920
It's just not good enough.
Well, it's a bit late now

1254
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:48,000
because it's the end of the
year, isn't it?

1255
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,360
Yeah, it's not good enough and
only you're responsible for it.

1256
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,480
Teacher, apparently now not me,
the head teacher or the senior

1257
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,880
leadership team who are all in
charge collectively of like

1258
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,600
making, you know, taking these
kids on this journey of

1259
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,560
progress.
It's July now.

1260
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:02,760
You didn't you didn't get enough
progress.

1261
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:04,600
Sorry mate.
No pay for you.

1262
00:50:04,720 --> 00:50:06,960
Oh, could you have not raised
this with me early one in the

1263
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:08,120
year?
Like when you know, when we

1264
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:09,760
obviously you were tracking it
because that's literally your

1265
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:11,680
job SLT at this point because
you're not in the classroom.

1266
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,240
If you're not, you could have
maybe said, oh, the progress

1267
00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:16,480
doesn't seem to be on the right
sort of lines and we could do

1268
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,120
something about it together.
No, we're just not going to pay

1269
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:20,520
you for it now.
Yeah, completely.

1270
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,920
It happens all the time.
In terms of the worry right at

1271
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:24,920
the end of panic.
Yeah.

1272
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:26,120
Oh, God.
Oh, gosh.

1273
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,560
We've got to July and only this
percentage meeting expected

1274
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,840
standard in writing.
What have you been doing,

1275
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:35,520
teacher in the classroom?
Hold on a minute.

1276
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:40,440
At no point in this year at all
has anything been mentioned

1277
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:42,120
about how something's going
wrong.

1278
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:44,560
And here's my my, the crux of
this.

1279
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:48,760
I think in a school, you should
build an environment where it's

1280
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,480
completely normal and not
anxiety ridden.

1281
00:50:51,720 --> 00:50:55,600
When SLT come and see a lesson,
they drop in, they walk around.

1282
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,200
I like it when SLT are in my
room talking to my kids.

1283
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,480
I like them walking through my
lesson because you build that up

1284
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,440
where it's not, oh gosh, the
heads in the room, I've got to

1285
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,200
just go clammy and hold up,
seize up.

1286
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,120
I think you can build that kind
of kind of environment where

1287
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,320
it's accepted.
And when that happens, they see

1288
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:16,600
more of your lessons throughout
the year.

1289
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:18,880
If there's a problem, you can
pick up on it.

1290
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,520
The worst thing in the world
that can possibly happen is that

1291
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,480
you leave it, leave it, leave
it, leave it, leave it.

1292
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,120
You think you're doing a good
job because no one's came in and

1293
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,480
said, OK, pick up on that, Pick
up on this, that that's not

1294
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,400
going correctly.
You've done your pupil progress

1295
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,400
meetings throughout the year,
you've done your data points

1296
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,800
throughout the year.
Everything seems to be tracking.

1297
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,520
And then you get to the
appraisal at the end and then

1298
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:40,480
suddenly, oh, it's completely
wrong.

1299
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:41,680
Everything we've been doing is
wrong.

1300
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,280
The whole year of effort you've
put in was fundamentally flawed

1301
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,240
because I've got a data point in
the end that looks bad.

1302
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,520
No, what should happen is if at
the end of the year you look at

1303
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:55,000
the data and maybe sometimes
rightfully, you think, oh gosh,

1304
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,400
that does look low.
You don't point the finger, as

1305
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,280
anyone in this situation say,
because your lessons were bad.

1306
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,080
Well, I turn around and say,
well, your leadership was bad.

1307
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,360
You let this happen in your
school for a whole year.

1308
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:08,720
The system that you bought, our
writing scheme that you brought

1309
00:52:08,720 --> 00:52:10,240
in or our history scheme that
you bought in.

1310
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,120
I was following it.
You brought that in.

1311
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:14,440
It's not just my.
Yeah, exactly.

1312
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:16,720
It's not just my teaching.
No, it's, it's the whole, it's

1313
00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:18,440
the whole school.
Exactly.

1314
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,280
Yeah, completely.
And that's where it, I think

1315
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,480
there has to be attitude shifts
and that's where appraisals can

1316
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,240
work.
Well, the appraisals can be

1317
00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:27,840
great.
I think we need appraisals.

1318
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:29,520
I can see already the comments
coming in.

1319
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,360
Well, don't you want to be held
accountable?

1320
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:36,280
Yes, but it's like when we talk
about Ofsted, Ofsted bowling up

1321
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,520
once every five years and going,
oh, that's bad, That's not

1322
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:41,880
raising standards, that's not
helping schools.

1323
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:44,960
That's why I said Ofsted should
be more of a collaborative

1324
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,040
approach where you help people
out and you come in and you say,

1325
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:48,880
OK, let's see how we can improve
this.

1326
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:50,960
This is going really well.
Can you support that school?

1327
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,480
This could do some work.
I've got, I know a local school

1328
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:55,600
I've been in recently where we
can bring people in to help you.

1329
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,400
Let's make everything better
instead of pointing and judging.

1330
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:00,120
The same should be for
appraisals.

1331
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,320
You come into your appraisal,
you go your maths day.

1332
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:04,960
It was fantastic this year.
Michael, what did you do?

1333
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:06,840
Well, Well, I did this and that.
Awesome.

1334
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:08,800
Maybe we could have a little bit
of a group of teachers here

1335
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:10,600
where you support them with
their arithmetic.

1336
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:11,880
That sounds like it's working
really well.

1337
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,200
Reading, I know all year because
we've had conversations, haven't

1338
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:16,600
we?
Because I'm an SLT who's

1339
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:18,080
actually involved in this whole
process.

1340
00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:20,760
We've had conversations all year
about how reading just needs a

1341
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,280
bit of a push.
And the data does kind of show

1342
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:25,640
that it's a bit low, isn't it?
And as a teacher at that point,

1343
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:27,880
I'd be like, yeah, it's
actually, I did think that.

1344
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,520
And you know, thankfully we've
tried some stuff out, haven't

1345
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:31,400
we?
About yeah, OK.

1346
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,880
And what a good SLT will do at
that point is say course.

1347
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:36,480
So next year, let's think about
this.

1348
00:53:36,720 --> 00:53:38,880
How can we improve it?
What can we do better?

1349
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:41,160
How can I support you and
improve you?

1350
00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:44,560
Because if there's been a
problem with the teaching, it's

1351
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,560
not being picked up in July.
If I was the leader of a school

1352
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,560
and it got to July and I
realised there was a problem

1353
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:52,640
with teaching, that's a me
problem.

1354
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:56,200
Yeah, 100%, not 100 percent, 90%
because at the end of the day

1355
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,560
that's your job is to manage
that and, and, and help it,

1356
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:00,040
right.
It's still the teachers problem

1357
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:01,520
in terms of like doing something
wrong.

1358
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,480
Sorry, what I mean is it's my
problem that to there's been a

1359
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,920
year of lost progress.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1360
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:08,880
exactly that, exactly that.
Yeah.

1361
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:10,640
I've got a couple of stats I
want to read out for you 'cause

1362
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,120
I get I'm the stats man today
and I saw these online and I

1363
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,400
thought these are fantastic to
go to go with this conversation.

1364
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:18,000
Fantastic or depressing?
Fantastic.

1365
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:19,240
You know, we've had a lot of
depressing.

1366
00:54:19,240 --> 00:54:19,760
Talk.
Let's go.

1367
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:20,920
Let's pretend these are
fantastic.

1368
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,480
So the first one is 72% of
teachers have said that their

1369
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:27,400
appraisal cause significant
anxiety.

1370
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,320
Oh fantastic.
So again, completely backing up

1371
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:34,200
the fact that it, it, the whole
July panic thing, like it just,

1372
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:36,520
it's, it's anxiety because
because it's all been left at

1373
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,040
the end of the year and now
you've got to try and justify

1374
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:39,800
all the things you've been doing
for a year because no one cared

1375
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:41,840
up to this point, apparently.
And the second one is all from

1376
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:44,680
spoke from the NEU by the way,
from 2022, they did a workload

1377
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:49,080
survey, 58%.
So more than half said it had no

1378
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:50,360
meaningful impact on their
practise.

1379
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:51,600
And they're talking about their
appraisal here.

1380
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,800
So their appraisal process had
no meaningful impact on their

1381
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:56,720
practise.
So basically it was a pointless,

1382
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:58,920
it was a pointless process.
Do you think the appraisal

1383
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,240
process has had a meaningful
impact on your practise?

1384
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:04,280
Honestly, not.
Not once in my 10 years, not

1385
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,200
once.
It's it's never made me think

1386
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:07,560
about anything or do anything
differently.

1387
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,320
So, so I guess coming back full
circle to my story about my

1388
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:14,640
lesson that I had in maths.
At no point in that lesson did I

1389
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,360
think, Oh my goodness me, that
my appraisal target is that 8%

1390
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:18,800
of these kids need to get to
this certain thing.

1391
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:19,920
So I'm going to change what I
do.

1392
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,200
Never good teachers.
All they care about is the

1393
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,000
progress and impact they're
having on their children.

1394
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,600
In that lesson, all of the
children in their class, every

1395
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,600
single decision I made in that
lesson was based on the children

1396
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,080
learning as much as possible
possible in that environment.

1397
00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:36,120
And that was the end of the
conversation and it was almost

1398
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:37,680
irrelevant.
Other things like, you know,

1399
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:40,720
would it have been better for
the children if I stepped away

1400
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:43,160
to the back of my room to my
mass display that's at the back

1401
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:45,720
and arbitrarily drew a
horizontal line up there because

1402
00:55:45,720 --> 00:55:46,960
I mentioned horizontal line to
them?

1403
00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:48,880
No, that's.
What would be vertical line?

1404
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,040
It was vertical line.
The beauty of a podcast.

1405
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:56,720
If you're watching, I'm very
sorry, but it even would have

1406
00:55:56,720 --> 00:55:58,320
been even worse for the kids
because it wouldn't have even

1407
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,640
been a horizontal line, vertical
line.

1408
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:05,120
But that 30 seconds would have
been much better used going over

1409
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,040
the shoulder of one of the
children who were struggling and

1410
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:08,400
showing them how to use the
ruler properly.

1411
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:10,880
What's having a more of an
impact on the child's learning?

1412
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:15,040
Just come back to that.
And what upsets me a little bit

1413
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:18,560
is that I feel like the system
of appraisals and judging

1414
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:22,560
teachers is built in a way
that's convenient to do it, but

1415
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:24,080
not accurate in actually
judging.

1416
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:25,160
What makes someone a good
teacher?

1417
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:26,960
I agree.
And you know what, just think

1418
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:28,560
about my own appraisal now,
right?

1419
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:30,240
What, what would I, I was
thinking to myself, because you

1420
00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:31,920
said, has it been useful?
And I thought actually, no, it

1421
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,360
just hasn't ever.
What would I want it to be like

1422
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:35,360
to have a think about it as
well?

1423
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,320
And what would you want your
appraisal system to actually

1424
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,040
like?
Because for me, forget all the

1425
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:40,880
data stuff.
Like I get that it's a really

1426
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:42,440
easy way.
It's an easy metric, isn't it?

1427
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:46,640
Because you know what if you, if
your class does go from 41% to

1428
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,280
82% in something, it is pretty
tangible.

1429
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:51,720
That's, oh, you've, you've made
some sort of impact and probably

1430
00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:53,440
there are other things that have
made impacts, but you're

1431
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:55,000
probably a big part of it
because you're a teacher.

1432
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:56,840
It's really easy to track.
Well done, Pat on the back.

1433
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:00,920
But ultimately we've also just
established that it's that

1434
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:02,680
shouldn't be left to the for the
last minute anyway.

1435
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:04,640
Like I shouldn't be looking in
July at this data.

1436
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,400
It should be something we've all
all known all the way across the

1437
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:08,880
year.
So it's kind of irrelevant for

1438
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:10,720
my appraisal to look at the data
at the end of the year because

1439
00:57:10,720 --> 00:57:12,200
we all know it because we've all
been working on it.

1440
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,120
So it's not nothing to do with
just me not personal enough that

1441
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:16,920
it should be my specific
appraisal, right?

1442
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:19,640
So leave data out of it.
I want my appraisal to be sat

1443
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:21,840
down with the head teacher or
whoever is doing my appraisal.

1444
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,160
And maybe they've gone and
talked to a bunch of kids across

1445
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:27,400
the year and they and they're
just sat there saying so well

1446
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:28,840
done.
Because this kid in your class

1447
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,040
who had a really low attendance,
like coming to school, really

1448
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:32,080
likes coming to school now.
Well done.

1449
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:33,320
You've actually helped improve
their attendance.

1450
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:34,840
That's really cool.
This kid now loves maths.

1451
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:36,560
They told me at the beginning of
the year they hated maths.

1452
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:38,640
They really love maths now.
So they've just written down

1453
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:40,200
these anecdotes like that's the
meal.

1454
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:41,880
Like I want to sit there and
find out what I've been doing.

1455
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:44,320
Well, like with the kids.
And then maybe there'll be some

1456
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,240
actual point of like this group
of children, though we are

1457
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:48,560
struggling even more on this
sort of thing.

1458
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:49,760
And they said that this would
help them.

1459
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:51,680
Cool, thank you.
I'll think about that now next

1460
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:52,680
year.
Because I really care about what

1461
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:54,920
the kids think and how they are
in school because funnily

1462
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,640
enough, I do this job for them.
So if I, if I found out that

1463
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,760
like my relationship with the
kids wasn't quite right or I

1464
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:02,440
could have done something a bit
better to foster that

1465
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:04,840
relationship, I'd absolutely be
taking that on board for next

1466
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:06,240
year.
But again, that's just me.

1467
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:07,960
I like maybe some people
wouldn't like that and they just

1468
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:10,200
want to know hard data.
What what lessons will I do in

1469
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,600
well, in what lessons do I need
to plan better next year?

1470
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:14,720
I don't know.
I think it just needs to have

1471
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:17,840
some nuance to it, OK, Because I
actually do think that you can

1472
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:20,120
look at data and see the impact
you've had in your children.

1473
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:23,000
I, I, I see it with my own
children in my own classes and I

1474
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,720
see them move points and I
think, OK, yeah, I know that's

1475
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,400
because of these decisions I've
taken, because of the lessons

1476
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:30,600
I've taught that I've been
adaptable on because I didn't

1477
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,160
necessarily tick every box in
every single lesson for this

1478
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:34,720
thing that was given at the
start of the year.

1479
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:36,960
But I know that I've done the
best for those kids.

1480
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,040
It's nice to see a vindication
when data moves because of it.

1481
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:43,200
I think that has a place
absolutely in what is

1482
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,400
fundamentally my job.
A huge part of it is that the

1483
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:47,560
children get get better at
maths, the children get better

1484
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:49,720
at reading, the children get
better at writing and that has

1485
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,560
to come to data at some point.
However, I just think there has

1486
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:54,960
to be that holistic picture,
there has to be that wider

1487
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:58,760
picture and if all were going on
is data then it's not going to

1488
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,480
paint that and it's not going to
accurately judge how good

1489
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:04,720
someone is as a teacher.
Because I've had years before

1490
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:09,920
where one year the children may
have moved 5% in total in their

1491
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,680
maths attainment and another
year where the children are

1492
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:14,800
moved 40% in their maths
attainment.

1493
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:18,240
And I absolutely do not think
that I was an 8 times better

1494
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:21,240
teacher in the second year
compared to the first year.

1495
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,800
So just looking at data, what
I'm saying is fundamentally

1496
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:25,360
flawed.
It's important.

1497
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:27,880
It should be a long term process
where we dip in and out and we

1498
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,400
see how children are going on
and if there's problems we pick

1499
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:32,800
it up early instead of waiting
to the end and pointing the

1500
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:34,760
finger.
But I do think it has a role to

1501
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:38,000
play in an appraisal, but it has
to be a wider picture.

1502
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:41,800
And as a member of staff, going
through an appraisal with a

1503
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,640
leadership team member, what I'd
love for it to be is these kids

1504
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:47,240
made this progress.
Fantastic.

1505
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:49,200
How did you do that?
How can we help other teachers?

1506
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:51,920
These kids in reading seem to
stall a little bit.

1507
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:53,720
That's interesting.
I wonder why that was.

1508
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:56,120
Let's see if we can take
anything from someone else in

1509
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:57,600
the school who's an expert at
that.

1510
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:00,000
Really good data.
Make it communal.

1511
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:04,440
Make it fostering an environment
of improvement and help and not

1512
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:06,920
pointing the finger.
And then also have leadership

1513
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:08,160
go, yeah.
And I'm going to go away and I'm

1514
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:10,600
going to think about this
because it's interesting that we

1515
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:13,880
tried that together in Turn 2
and 3 didn't quite work.

1516
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:16,120
Turn 4 was a bit better.
I'm going to see what we can do

1517
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:19,240
next year because we're A-Team
and the only thing that's

1518
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,000
important at this point in July
is that you don't spend your

1519
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:23,560
whole summer thinking you're a
rubbish teacher.

1520
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:26,400
You spend your whole summer
thinking I'm excited to go back

1521
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:28,720
and try something new.
That's what I'd want to foster.

1522
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:30,680
Yeah, definitely the holistic.
That has to be the solution.

1523
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,480
I think I was thinking more
pessimistic maybe if we're

1524
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:35,680
sticking to our current system,
take data out of it.

1525
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:38,360
Because in the current system,
if I'm being judged entirely

1526
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,160
100% on data, as if it's
completely and only my fault

1527
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:43,120
that the data is what it is,
then get rid of it Because

1528
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:44,680
that's not true.
Because we're all, we're all

1529
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:47,560
part of this way more cogs in
play with the data.

1530
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:50,440
Like you said, if it goes up 8%
one year and 40% another year or

1531
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:53,560
forever, you said like clearly
that shows it's not all just me.

1532
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:55,920
And I can't just be down to luck
whether I get that or not.

1533
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:58,560
Because in one year it might go
down 2% despite me getting plus

1534
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:00,920
40% the last year.
Like and then and then is it on

1535
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:02,280
me now?
Because we're still pretending

1536
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:04,400
that that was entirely my fault.
Yeah, that you completely

1537
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,000
changed how you deliver and of.
Course not so in in the current

1538
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:08,520
systems like case you scrap it
then, because if you're not

1539
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:11,080
going to look at data properly
from a holistic view and we're

1540
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,800
just going to be just thinking
in black and white and yes and

1541
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:16,560
nose and tick box or not ticker
box, then I don't want it in my

1542
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:18,440
system because it is there's too
much luck involved.

1543
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:20,040
It's not even down to my skill
as a teacher.

1544
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:22,720
It's just down to the entire
environment not being considered

1545
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:24,400
properly and it all being on me
for some reason.

1546
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:25,280
So absolutely yeah.
I.

1547
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:27,120
Think you're right?
Change the whole culture, that's

1548
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:28,320
what we've got to do.
Change the culture of

1549
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:29,880
appraisals, make it more
holistic.

1550
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:33,560
Data is part of it, I agree, but
just we've got to find a way to

1551
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:36,600
include more about our
relationships with the kids, the

1552
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:38,280
creativity.
We talked about how adaptable

1553
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:40,440
you are, honestly, some of the
other teacher standards because

1554
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:44,120
like you said, it does fall down
to they look at teacher standard

1555
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:46,200
four or five, whatever it is
about being adaptable.

1556
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:49,040
They're like, don't really know
that one.

1557
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:51,200
So we'll sort of leave that,
even though that's probably the

1558
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:52,960
most important one.
That should be like as a bell

1559
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:54,040
curve that should be right at
the top.

1560
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:57,080
Like the biggest weighting right
at the bottom of that curve is,

1561
01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,600
is teacher standard 8.
And it's like, I can't measure

1562
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:01,000
that one really easily though,
So let's pretend that's.

1563
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,120
Really important.
How many Space Invader packets

1564
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:04,520
of Christ did you sell at the
disco?

1565
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:06,960
Because that's kind of going to
tip the box whether you're a

1566
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:09,200
good teacher or not.
Yeah, that's the message that

1567
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:10,640
we're getting from this episode,
I think.

1568
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:12,360
And there's a message I want to
put out to everyone out there.

1569
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:17,160
You are not defined by your
appraisal as whether or not you

1570
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:20,040
are a good teacher or not.
It is not as simple as that.

1571
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:22,480
Appraisals have a place because
we need to keep teachers

1572
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:25,080
accountable.
But the way the system currently

1573
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:28,600
works in lots of schools, it
doesn't accurately for me

1574
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:30,560
portray how good a teacher you
are.

1575
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:32,480
Don't let it personally affect
you too much.

1576
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:33,800
Do what you can to get through
the system.

1577
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:36,840
Fight back when you're being
unfairly targeted for things

1578
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:38,920
which are just completely wrong,
like teacher Standard 8.

1579
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:41,680
But just know that you have a
huge impact on the children in

1580
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:45,000
lots of ways, not just on what a
data point looks like in July

1581
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:46,520
I'm.
Going to ask you 2 questions to

1582
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:48,680
finish up.
Have just to sort of solidify

1583
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:51,520
this whole point.
Have you ever met a teacher who

1584
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:55,520
you would deem as is a really
quality, great teacher, but

1585
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:58,560
scatty as anything, right, in
terms of we're thinking of me

1586
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:01,320
and you right now, but scatty as
anything in terms of they

1587
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:04,240
probably don't tick a lot of the
boxes when it comes to displays

1588
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:07,720
or TA teacher standard 8.
And maybe do you know what?

1589
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:10,800
Maybe even their data isn't like
phenomenal.

1590
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:12,040
It's just average.
All right.

1591
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:14,360
But you know, they're a good
teacher because you see them

1592
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:16,840
with the kids all the time and
the kids adore being in school

1593
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:18,800
with them and they, and they
foster the creative love for

1594
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:21,760
arts and crafts and other things
that maybe you're, maybe you're

1595
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:23,560
bare at maths.
But they are, they've made the,

1596
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:25,760
these kids love history.
And you think, oh, that's such a

1597
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:27,560
good teacher.
Have you ever met someone like

1598
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:30,400
that?
I I've met a couple of people

1599
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:31,840
who who come to mind straight
away.

1600
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:36,000
The thing is right that I want
to make a point here is that if

1601
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:38,800
you're like that as a teacher,
most of the time you kids make

1602
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:41,360
good progress anyway.
Like it does come with the kind

1603
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:43,160
of ground and there will be odd
year.

1604
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:45,080
Maybe we don't make the same
amount of progress you like

1605
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:47,320
etcetera and stuff like that.
But again, yeah, we're measuring

1606
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:49,120
progress on 2 points in two
subjects.

1607
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:52,840
Like at the end of the day, ask
an adult which teacher I

1608
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:55,400
remember when they were younger
what impact they had.

1609
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:58,920
It will be something they did
that allowed them to enjoy

1610
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:02,600
themselves, to love going into
school, to enjoy the like the

1611
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,320
academic side of school
sometimes and sometimes do a

1612
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:06,880
sport.
They ran my football club.

1613
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:09,560
What an amazing bond you've
built with your children.

1614
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:12,960
I think we just need to widen
the scope when we think of a

1615
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:15,880
good teacher.
OK, in school we're very narrow

1616
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:17,240
minded.
We think of data because of the

1617
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:18,920
appraisal system and how we
judge teachers.

1618
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:22,640
But realistically, in real life,
it was to ask you what made a

1619
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:25,640
good teacher for some.
One, I'd think of 6 things

1620
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:28,320
before an increase in six points
in a maths test.

1621
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:30,320
At the end you've kind of part
of it, but not everything.

1622
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,400
You've made my point entirely
because my second bit, we won't

1623
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:34,200
talk about it, but my second
thing was going to be the

1624
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:35,880
opposite.
Have you ever met or heard of or

1625
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:39,160
known a teacher who flies for
appraisals?

1626
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:41,840
They tick all of the boxes but
ultimately the lessons aren't

1627
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:43,560
particularly inspiring.
All the kids don't enjoy being

1628
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:45,840
in that classroom and you think
and you think to yourself

1629
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:48,240
they're not a very good teacher
but on paper they're better than

1630
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:48,720
me.
Sure.

1631
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:51,040
That's where that to me, that's
sort of like summary.

1632
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:54,480
Everything you just sort of said
there is, is ultimately why I

1633
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:56,760
feel like the system is so
flawed, because it just judged.

1634
01:04:56,760 --> 01:05:00,240
It doesn't quite work for what
we deem as what a good teacher

1635
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:01,080
actually is.
I agree.

1636
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:02,720
I agree completely.
Good chat.

1637
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:05,640
Let's catch these people on the
flippity flap.

1638
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:08,800
That's code for next week.
Bye, guys.