Ep 112: Top SATs Advice For Teachers & Should Faith Schools Still Exist?

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Hello, everyone, and welcome
back to another episode of TEACH

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Sleep Repeat.
My name is Dylan, and my name is

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Hayden.
Hayden.

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Hayden.
I'm really, really, really.

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Well, what is this week?
No, it's a small week in

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education.
Yeah.

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What is it?
Let's.

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Let's speak, shall we?
What's going on?

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You're listening in the car on
the way to work.

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Oh.
What's going on this week?

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Monday morning, baby.
Big old sats week.

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Big old SATS week, Big old
standard, little old SATS week,

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the big old SATS week.
It's SATS.

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This week we're going to talk a
little bit about SATS in

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general.
Then afterwards, we're going to

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talk about face scores,
something we wanted to talk

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about for a while.
Dive into what face schools are,

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why they exist, are they a thing
that we should have?

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Maybe.
And dare we?

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Dare we add our own thoughts?
We we do dare 112 episodes in, I

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think me thinks we will say what
we think about this It's.

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Taking a while but yeah no.
Why not?

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It'll be a good chat.
But First things first, Hayden,

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anything to digress from your
week in the school environment

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in this in the school.
Environment, Dylan, I've I've

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had a very good week.
There's only one thing really I

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want to talk about and it is
SATS related.

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I know we're going to talk more
about it.

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Is this SATS week this week?
Yeah, no, it is.

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It is definitely still a SATS
week.

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Just checking.
And one thing I just wanted to

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say, right, because I want to
see how you would react to this

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as well.
Maybe it's because I'm

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disillusioned over time.
I don't know.

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But one of the kids in my class,
I could tell, you know, you can

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just tell in the morning.
She just, there's just something

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about her.
I was like, she doesn't feel

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right.
And I said, you're right.

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She's the usual, yeah, yeah,
yeah.

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Come in.
And I was like, Nah, something's

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wrong.
Now I got her over.

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I was like, Are you sure you're
OK?

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You know, when the kid does that
thing where you can see their

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mouth go, I was like, right, I
know they're going to cry.

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And I was like, I knew something
was wrong.

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I said, should we go and have a
chat?

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She's like, yeah, yeah.
And she just said, I'm just

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feeling really anxious about
Sans because it's coming up and

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in that moment like.
Oh, don't worry, love.

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Come to your booster, Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, don't worry.

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Your your stats.
In fact, let me just get up your

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portfolio.
You're doing you're.

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Oh, actually, yeah, I'd be
worried as well.

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You're not expect, you're not.
Yeah, you need to be expected in

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there.
Of course not.

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You know, what actually happened
is and maybe it's even 'cause

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we've had kids recently.
My my gut instinct here was I

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could not care less about school
data about literally anything

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other than this kid not feeling
like this right now.

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So do you know what I said to
them?

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And again, this is where I feel
like I shouldn't say this.

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It's mental like, but I did.
I just said I said, OK, can I

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made light of it?
I was like, it doesn't matter.

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Can I tell you a secret?
It, it literally doesn't matter.

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I was like, none of this stuff
matters.

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Honestly, you need to not worry
about it.

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I was like, I want you to go
home today thinking, OK, I've

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been working myself up over
nothing because this doesn't

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matter.
It's just the same as our other

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mocks across the year.
We, us teachers, we just use it

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to get a bit of data just to see
what we need to teach you, what

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we don't need to teach you.
Other than that, don't worry

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about it.
You said there, let me tell you

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a secret.
Shouldn't.

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Even be a secret.
I know it.

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Shouldn't even be a thing.
The fact that it's hyped up, the

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fact that you think that's a bad
thing to say to a human being

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who's feeling bad about
something that is genuinely

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pointless to them is insane.
It's it's a such a bad

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reflection on the system.
I feel like a fraud.

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I feel like I shouldn't be
saying.

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That but yeah, that's that's my
point.

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But you but you know,
absolutely, of course you should

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because you're a human being.
My point is the system is so

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awful for that kind of
indoctrination of huge pressure

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on staff and schools.
That autumn obviously goes on to

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the children.
Because I can guarantee you now

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from everything you've said to
me in the past about SATS,

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you've not put an ounce of
pressure on these kids

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knowingly.
You've not knowingly gone in and

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been like, Oh my God, this is a
huge thing, right?

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Kids, listen, you need to do
well in this test because of

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this reason or that reason.
That's the ultimate example

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there of how a system bleeds
through to the children at the

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bottom.
Definitely because you, you've

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not knowingly done that.
And some people will, but that

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child still feels that huge
anxiety around these tests next

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week just from the system we've
built without you putting on

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them yourself.
So you're like, no, I'm fine.

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So teachers out there in Year 6
were like, Oh no, I never.

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Put it on them at all.
It doesn't matter because it's

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built in a way where the
children are going to feel like

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that and it's horrendous.
I don't know.

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I've, yeah, I, I, we're going to
have a whole chat about Saturday

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because I've got some like
deeper questions and thoughts

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about that.
But before then, you know I'm

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going to be polite here and ask
you how your week.

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Maybe I should have started
straight into Sats because mine

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is such lower, like stakes.
There's stories, nothing

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compared to it.
There's one thing again, because

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it is funny now, we did a
podcast.

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Something happens and I'm like,
I'm gonna tell the podcast that.

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And we were lining up at the end
of the day and I was stood at

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the front of the line at our
door ready to go out at the end

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of end of school.
And the children were lining up

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one table at a time, as you do.
Whose table sat nicely?

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Whose sat up straight is good.
Sounds like you.

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Yeah, all the time.
And then to the first table come

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up and this girl came straight
up to the front and we were just

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talking.
She was just chatting and saying

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oh blah, blah, hey Davis,
etcetera.

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Whilst other tables were coming
up and I had my lanyard on

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obviously and she saw my lanyard
and like grabbed it and when was

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this picture taken?
Here we go, I.

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Mean, honestly, in my head I was
like, OK, I was bracing myself.

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So I just went along with it
expecting this is this is by the

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way, the same girl who said
about her mum's 29, OK, so I

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was, I was bracing myself to
have some kind of comment,

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grabbed the lanyard, said when
was this taken?

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And I went OK, that picture
actually my land you just taken

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about 3 or 4 years ago, so quite
a while and I was waiting.

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Oh, you know, well, older now,
yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, but she kind of half
shocked me because she went, oh,

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you look exactly the same.
And I was like, whore, apart

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from the grey in your beard.
You had a moment.

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I I thought for a second that
she was going to be shocked when

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I'd have my useful looks though,
and I and I do you know what I

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said because I've been thinking
my beard is going grey and she

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was like, straight for it You.
Literally said that to me

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recently.
You were like, you sent me a

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picture and he was like, my
beard is so.

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Great.
Right here in the chin I've got

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like, it used to be like 1 and I
was like, oh that's cool.

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One here it's like, yeah.
And now it's like 28.

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I'm like, oh, I know what's
happening, but I'm embracing.

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I like the grey.
I wasn't offended by it, but I

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just thought, I, I thought for a
second that one of them stories

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was going to turn into a
compliment and I was like, wow.

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And then she hit me.
Apart from the grain.

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Kids can't, they just can't not
be brutal.

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I, I, I love their honesty.
Like I feel like a lot of

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teachers talk about it where
it's like there are some things

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that kids say that I would
genuinely be quite hurt if like

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an adult said that to me in the
same way.

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And but because it's a kid, I'm
like the the innocence comes

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through and I'm like, I just
don't think you meant it to have

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this impact that what that if an
adult said it to me, they

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probably would be meaning.
It's just funny.

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They're learning those
boundaries in kids.

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Well, we had an one more thing
before we talk about Sats

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properly.
It's again, it's related, but

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it's just a funny story, right?
So someone, someone messaged me

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this week and they were telling
me about something that happened

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in that class.
And I thought, again, like you,

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we get to the point now where we
just we actually don't talk to

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each other because we save stuff
for the podcast, right?

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I was like, I've got to tell
Dylan this, this story, but I'm

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just going to summarise it.
So this this the guy who

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messaged was saying that he was
doing SAT prep a couple of weeks

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ago and because obviously it's
horrendously boring when you're

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just doing endless SAT stuff.
One of that builds pressure.

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He said that on his mock SAT
papers for a bit of fun, just to

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try and bring some light back
into the the darkness of.

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SAT Prep.
He was like, he told the kids,

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like you do a register.
We do silly registers.

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Put your names on it.
But you've got to write them

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backwards and I'll work it out.
I'll work it out.

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You'll write your names
backwards, you know, not just

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your surname, then your your
forename.

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That's boring.
Write the letters backwards in

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your name.
Right.

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Yeah.
And and they all had a good

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laugh of it.
They were laughing.

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He was, you know, he modelled a
couple working them out.

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That's.
Common as a kid, you're like,

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I'm nalid, Yeah.
I remember it.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly that.
Everyone, everyone's done it at

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some point.
Backwards names.

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It was.
It was a good bit good bit of

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fun before they, you know,
probably did like a 30 minutes

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silent test.
Yeah.

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Collected them in and his
challenge was unmarked then, but

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I've got to whack out who you
are.

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And he said he messages saying
horribly backfired.

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Horribly backfired because he
was marking the test at the end

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of the day and it wasn't until
he got to the girl in his class

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called Lana that he realised.
This was a.

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Really really bad idea and that
he would never do it again.

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I'll just let you think about
why.

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Why?
The backwards name thing is

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really not always going to work.
As soon as you said that name, I

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thought I've heard this before
like I've heard of someone

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mentioning.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can't do

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it.
It's a risky game.

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It's a risky game.
So teachers out there, if you're

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having a bit of fun, avoid
backwards name games because

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like they might be fine.
Or at least vet your class first

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because they could, you know
their names went backwards

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because that was something rude.
Or unbelievable.

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I wonder if there are any other
names that do that?

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Yeah, probably, probably not.
Have some kind of strange things

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we'll make.
We'll make a.

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We'll make a full list.
And release it to the public

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names to avoid.
Oh look, this paper is from

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Cuff.
Depending on how it stops, that

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might be quite bad.
Oh dear.

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But anyway, really made me
laugh.

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It brought again brought a bit
of lights to sound prep.

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God, let's play the Jingle and
then we're going to dive a bit

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more into Sats before we do a
religious thing.

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OK, so it is SATS week this
week.

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You're a year 6 teacher.
You've been a year 6 teacher for

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a long while.
You don't let me forget about

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it.
I'm going on.

225
00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:51,400
But seriously, now I want to
know a little bit in more detail

226
00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,680
about how you're going about
this because you mentioned that

227
00:08:53,680 --> 00:08:56,600
story to me about that child.
And honestly, my first thought

228
00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,480
hearing that is just, oh, my
heart sinks the fact that any

229
00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,400
child thinks like that.
And I know what you're like and

230
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,000
I know for a fact that your
classroom will have a culture of

231
00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,680
that understanding and not kind
of expecting loads from your

232
00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:08,760
children and making them feel
bad.

233
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:10,880
So the fact that a child still
feels like that in your

234
00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:15,080
classroom does make me worry
Like the thousands and thousands

235
00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,080
of children out there doing this
test is how they must feel right

236
00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,240
now.
So as a teacher in year 6, what

237
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,800
do you see your role as and how
are you going to combat this

238
00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,320
week effectively?
Because the children are going

239
00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,800
to have to do this test and and
you can be a certain way, but

240
00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,080
you know, they're going to have
nerves etcetera still so.

241
00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:33,680
What are you doing to combat
that?

242
00:09:33,680 --> 00:09:35,920
Like, how would you give advice
to someone on how you can make

243
00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:37,320
it easier for them?
I think, I think there's only

244
00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,960
one thing really that I can give
advice on, which is, and we can

245
00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:42,640
talk more about our own
pressures in a minute, right?

246
00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,880
But whatever pressures and
anxiety and maybe even just

247
00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,800
negative feelings that you are
experiencing as a teacher, as a

248
00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,920
staff member due to SAS.
And that might be because you've

249
00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,240
got, you know, data, you've got
a hit, or, you know, there's

250
00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:57,880
other.
Performance related patients.

251
00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,840
Yeah, Whatever it is that's
affecting you, you can't let

252
00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:03,920
that, you can't let that impact
the children as well.

253
00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:05,720
You're not going to fix the
children.

254
00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:07,160
I mean, you're not going to,
you're not going to be able to

255
00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,920
create this perfect situation
where no one in your no children

256
00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,160
in your room feel anxious.
Like, of course some kids for

257
00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,080
their own merit are just going
to, they just, they mean

258
00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:17,800
something to them and they're
going to put pressure on

259
00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:19,240
themselves.
And there's, there's not much

260
00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,240
you can do about that.
But what you can do is reduce

261
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,760
how much you're going into the
classroom looking stressed and

262
00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,400
going, come on, guys, this is
really important.

263
00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,000
The things you say, like be
really careful at what you say,

264
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,560
your facial expressions and even
just like what you're doing in

265
00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:33,360
the day.
If you're normally quite fun and

266
00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,120
bubbly and maybe you do
something silly in the morning

267
00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:36,960
typically, and then you don't do
it.

268
00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,880
Yeah, yeah, yeah, with me.
But if you normally do that,

269
00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,320
don't then not do it in sex week
because you're feeling like, oh,

270
00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:45,480
it's super serious and it's got
to be taken seriously.

271
00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,680
All it's going to do is just,
it's just going to bleed onto

272
00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:50,120
the kids and make them just feel
more anxious, more nervous,

273
00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,080
whatever.
So be your normal self.

274
00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,000
And if your normal self is
normally extremely serious, then

275
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,360
maybe just try for this week to
lighten up a little bit.

276
00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,680
Show the children, through your
your actions and your emotions

277
00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:04,400
and your facial expressions and
your words and everything, that

278
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,320
this does not need to impact
them as much as perhaps it

279
00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:08,720
already is.
Like you said, the system slips

280
00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,320
through anyway.
So what's your line then?

281
00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,520
Because you know, again, I like
to take things to the extreme

282
00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,240
just to figure out where where
you sit on a, on a spectrum.

283
00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:19,880
So there's one, there's one
extreme, which is this is

284
00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,160
incredibly important to you
because this is your SAT and we

285
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:23,960
need to know how you're doing
and you need to understand this

286
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,120
is so important and you need to
show exactly what you're doing

287
00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:27,560
and putting a load of pressure
on them.

288
00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:29,480
And there's the other side of
the coin, which is saying to a

289
00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,520
child, these don't matter at
all, right?

290
00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,240
Don't worry about it one bit.
Who cares if you sit there and

291
00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:35,320
tuddle your thumbs all the way
through?

292
00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:36,960
They're not going to impact.
Your don't even come in.

293
00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:38,360
Don't even come in.
Don't even come to school.

294
00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:39,840
Unroll.
Just get off the edge that

295
00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:41,080
education is not important at
all.

296
00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,400
So clearly clear, really it it
sounds as if you're more toward

297
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,440
1 towards one side, but can you
justify where that line is for

298
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,040
you And and and you know why you
think that's reasonable?

299
00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:52,680
Yeah, I think so, because
obviously I wouldn't be saying

300
00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:53,520
that.
Just to clarify, there's

301
00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,320
absolutely no way you'd hear me
saying to the kids, this doesn't

302
00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,400
matter at all, so therefore go
home, OK?

303
00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:01,720
To that girl I spoke to the
other day, I did go further than

304
00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,360
my own line by saying these
don't matter.

305
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,440
I probably wouldn't even say
these don't matter generally to

306
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,440
the class all the time.
I was saying it to that girl in

307
00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:09,480
that moment because the only
thing that mattered to me then

308
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,480
was the fact that she was crying
about this and didn't even want

309
00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:12,800
to be in school.
So to me, I was like, cool, I

310
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:13,800
don't care about the Sats right
now.

311
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:15,360
I just want this kid to be Cappy
in school.

312
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,200
But generally my line is at a
point where what?

313
00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,760
What do I say to the kids?
I say to them when they say to

314
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,040
me all the time, what's the
point of this AAS?

315
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,160
My response is normally there's
not much point.

316
00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:29,880
There's not much point and it's
not really for you to worry

317
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,320
about.
But it is a really good way for

318
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,280
us to check that we've been
teaching you the right things.

319
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,560
It's a really good way for the
schools to be measured because

320
00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:38,320
obviously the government have a
lot of schools working.

321
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,040
They need to have a a rough
idea.

322
00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:41,760
Do you think of how the schools
are getting on do?

323
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:42,880
You think that when you're
telling them that?

324
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:44,560
Me personally, yeah.
When you're saying that to them,

325
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:46,960
do you actually think it's a
good way of doing that or are

326
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,800
you just saying it's them to
kind of shift the blame off?

327
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,280
I'm, I'm, I'm saying it to shift
the blame off, even though I do

328
00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,040
kind of think it's a decent way.
I think there's probably better

329
00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:56,320
ways.
And we've had conversations

330
00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,040
about whether we should scrap
Sats or not, right.

331
00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,640
I do think it is a good way, a
good an easy way for the

332
00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,880
government to assess a tonne of
schools at the same time, but

333
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:07,600
for like minimal effort from
them.

334
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,760
I think it gives them a snapshot
of whether schools, like

335
00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,040
schools, will stand out if
they're doing exceptionally well

336
00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,160
or exceptionally bad, and it
might then prompt them to look

337
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,120
into it a bit more.
Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is

338
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,280
how much of what you actually
think do you let come through to

339
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,040
the children because, because
you might, you might actually

340
00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:23,600
feel get rid of the Sats all
together, right.

341
00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:24,840
That's what you might actually
care.

342
00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:25,320
Yeah.
Yeah.

343
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,600
But so you're you're you're
making this mind for children

344
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,080
that we're discussing.
And you know, it sounds like you

345
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,080
are willing to bend what you
think, which is what we do all

346
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:34,840
the time as professional,
because it is a professional

347
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:36,200
job.
You don't have to have our

348
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:37,880
personal opinions come through
all the time.

349
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,000
So when you're laying these
lines down to the kids, what I'm

350
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,000
saying is like, maybe going too
far one way, if it doesn't

351
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,280
matter at all, is potentially
slightly unprofessional because

352
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,080
as as a teacher, this is the
system we have and this is how

353
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,800
we grade the children.
So you've got to that line.

354
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,200
It sounds as if you do do this,
but in my opinion, that line

355
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,120
does need to come back a bit.
And I think you're right in

356
00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,520
almost reacting to the kids as
as they are.

357
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,800
Like if that child's anxious and
and vulnerable and upset about

358
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,320
it, it is just as much your job
to make sure they feel good.

359
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,120
You're absolutely right though,
because the line I've picked is,

360
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,520
is performance.
What I say to the children is

361
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,880
actually kind of irrespective of
my own thoughts.

362
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,280
My own thoughts are relatively
close to it anyway.

363
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,360
Like I was kind of just
explaining them with your first

364
00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,080
question, But I do think I'm
trying to be as objective as

365
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,000
possible.
Where I'm like, honestly, the

366
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,600
best outcomes really is that the
kids aren't overly panicked

367
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,720
about it and they're also not
overly relaxed where they think

368
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,080
it's where they don't have to
bother.

369
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,000
And is that the best outcome
because they'll get the best

370
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,560
mark probably, right.
So that's, that's, that's, you

371
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,520
know, all this thing that we're
landing on is essentially, of

372
00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,200
course, in, in on its own.
We don't want a child to be

373
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,440
upset, right?
But also there must be a part of

374
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,880
you as a professional that's
thinking, I, I don't want you to

375
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,120
be upset, of course, from a
human being, but also you're

376
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,720
going to do, you're going to
perform less well on this test

377
00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,160
if you're not in a solid
emotional state as well.

378
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,120
So you you want them to kind of
show off what they've done for

379
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,240
themselves, for you, for the
school.

380
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,960
It's just you need to pick that
line really carefully as a

381
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:05,680
teacher.
So talking to teachers now who

382
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,240
are doing this this week, would
you suggest to them to be quite

383
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,120
malleable with that or quite
steadfast of you know this is

384
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:13,960
important because of this and
the kids need to know?

385
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,160
That malleable on a one time
basis for sure.

386
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,800
I have my clear script use of
the class every single year,

387
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:20,840
which is basically what I was
saying.

388
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,720
It doesn't matter that much.
This is why it's here for it.

389
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,360
Won't kids put on this pressure
they think have the biggest

390
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:27,680
impact?
It's going to change what

391
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,680
secondary school go to.
No, no, get rid of any lies.

392
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,320
No, it's not going to change
what secondary school you're

393
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,600
going to, but it will.
Sort my sets out and maybe my

394
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,280
predicted grades.
I mean I'll get more support

395
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:36,960
etcetera.
And my mom said it's important

396
00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,080
for secondary school.
From what we've seen from many

397
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:40,960
secondary school teachers, it's
diminishing every.

398
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,400
Year, it doesn't really, if any,
if anything, secondary school

399
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,880
teachers probably do.
They definitely do like tests at

400
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,680
the start of the year to get a
better accurate more

401
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,760
representation of their, of
their where they're at.

402
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:52,880
And then they probably compare
it to the Sanson laugh because

403
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,720
they're probably quite often not
not, you know, the same like in

404
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,920
the same way that key stage two
teachers laugh at the key stage

405
00:15:57,920 --> 00:15:59,120
one day.
So that from other schools

406
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,000
because they're like, oh, this
is not remotely what the

407
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:02,240
children that we're seeing in
the children.

408
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,960
So I honestly, I tell the kids
essentially that I say to them,

409
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:07,920
no, no, most schools will
probably just reset.

410
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:09,840
You had six weeks off.
So this is where my script comes

411
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:11,120
in.
What I really want to say is

412
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,400
most schools will reset you
because actually will retest you

413
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,520
at the start of your 7, because
schools are notoriously famous

414
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,520
for honestly lodging these
results in a way or inflating

415
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,000
them hugely, and they're not
that trustworthy.

416
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:24,280
Yeah, I'm not going to say that
to the kids.

417
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,360
What I say is you've had six
weeks off in the summer.

418
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:27,960
They just want to retest you to
make sure they've got the right

419
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:29,400
data.
So it's not that important.

420
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:30,960
I, I really want to talk about
this.

421
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,560
I want to pick this apart now.
So we're kind of moving more

422
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,560
towards the pressure on the
schools and the teachers doing

423
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,760
because I think we accept that
there is far more pressure on

424
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:41,240
schools and teachers than the
children.

425
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,200
We're talking about the issue of
it bleeding through to the

426
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:44,320
children.
We've kind of covered that.

427
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,760
Which we can control.
Yeah, we can control as much as

428
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,720
possible because even you
couldn't control that child.

429
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:50,360
You can control all yourself and
that's.

430
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,080
It exactly.
So like we accept all that

431
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,200
shouldn't happen, but it is and
we can see what we can do.

432
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,360
The fact of the matter is that
there is huge pressure on

433
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,280
schools, SLT in particular for
their schools being judged by

434
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,280
what they see as the teachers
delivering.

435
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,040
So there's huge pressure on
these two aspects in the school

436
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,520
and every year I feel like it
comes around.

437
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,880
This is, I mean, this is the
third year of SAT whilst we've

438
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:14,319
been recording this podcast, and
I do feel like it is our duty to

439
00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:18,000
say that there is a lot of
cheating.

440
00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:21,520
It happens a lot.
There's a whistle blowing thing.

441
00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:24,880
I you know, you don't go into
too many details, but I can

442
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,240
guarantee you listeners right
now listening to this will think

443
00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,080
my school do barge some data in
terms or I've seen it before.

444
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,160
Well my friend works in the
school where it has I.

445
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,800
Just to be clear, I'm absolutely
not saying this does not happen

446
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,440
in my school.
Not what I'm saying at all.

447
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,680
But what I'm saying is, it's
normal to know of schools.

448
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,160
We're saying it's close to home
for every.

449
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,240
Close to home for everyone.
Someone knows of someone.

450
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,320
Honestly if you're a teacher you
know of another teacher or mate

451
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,560
who worked in a school or
something close to home where

452
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,560
you go oh bit naughty.
Yeah.

453
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,520
So the the most common one is
writing data, but that's

454
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,280
ongoing.
Yeah, because writing data is

455
00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,440
teacher assessed.
You can just, you can literally

456
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,840
just cheat and get your kids 1
to 1 and tell them to put a

457
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,480
front of the verb you'll hear or
semi colon there to take off a

458
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:05,840
box.
And that is just cheating.

459
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:07,080
Yeah, that happens more than you
think.

460
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:08,520
I think that's probably the most
widespread one.

461
00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,800
That's the most widespread one
where you just cheat your

462
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:12,560
writing data.
So it's as simple as that.

463
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,480
But let's think about SATS,
right In particular the SAT

464
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,040
suite coming up.
There's loads of strict

465
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,240
regulations and rules in place
to try and stop this from

466
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,000
happening.
But if from the top down you

467
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:23,520
want to cheat, there'll be ways
you can do that.

468
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,360
Blatant cheating doesn't happen
as much.

469
00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:28,640
You get the odd headline story
of school has been barred from

470
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,120
doing this because they've
opened the SAT papers and told

471
00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:32,760
the children the answer is 1 by
1.

472
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:34,760
It's like, well, that that's
just stupid, isn't it?

473
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,240
What are they doing?
They're the worst cheaters in

474
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,040
the world.
What really happens is people,

475
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,400
OK, it's like you might even
say, is it cheating?

476
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:43,240
Where's the line?
Right.

477
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,000
When they do things like this,
schools will push as hard as

478
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,560
they can on quote unquote
evidence to get children

479
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,200
additional support and tests and
then abuse the fact they can get

480
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,320
that additional support to to
push them for a threshold.

481
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:59,600
So yeah, happens.
All the time you know 2/3 of the

482
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:00,680
cohort are getting an extra
time.

483
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,240
Yeah, because suddenly their
word reading speed's too low.

484
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:04,600
Right?
Because what's the evidence?

485
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:05,960
Oh, we've recorded it on this
bit of paper.

486
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,360
There's no primary evidence.
No one's coming in and watching

487
00:19:08,360 --> 00:19:09,680
the kids.
There's not some SAT's guy

488
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:10,760
coming around.
You're like, come on, I don't

489
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:11,880
want to let me see these kids
read.

490
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:13,880
They're not doing it.
They just trust the schools

491
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:14,840
given the right evidence for
that.

492
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,880
That's one way, people.
I'd say that's very low, low,

493
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:19,520
low.
I, I think it's probably low,

494
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,720
but it, but it's a way that
people do things and then the

495
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,640
other way is a bit more blatant.
It's just, it's just helping

496
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,600
them in the test.
And that can go all the way

497
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,280
from, you know, the rules are
really strict.

498
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,360
Like if you just read the SAT's
guidance, it's very, very clear

499
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:33,240
what you can and can't do.
And you can't do most stuff,

500
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:34,640
right?
It is very much like a, you just

501
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:35,600
leave the kids to crack on with
it.

502
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,600
You can't do much.
You got to stand in the stand at

503
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,440
the side of the room and if they
put their hand up, come to you.

504
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,960
So even saying as much as if
you're wandering around the

505
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,160
room, someone might say that's
cheating because the guidance

506
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:45,160
says you need to stand to the
side.

507
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,160
And if they beckon you over, you
come over.

508
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,360
There's all these little things
where I'm like, This is why I'm

509
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:50,480
saying, where's the line?
Right?

510
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,320
Oh, in our class, we have people
wandering around so that we're

511
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,040
right here if the kids need us.
What tends to happen then is

512
00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:57,760
I've seen a mistake over my
shoulder.

513
00:19:58,160 --> 00:19:59,360
OK, you know what?
I can't help them.

514
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,120
I'm just going to give them a
little nudge, tap on the desk.

515
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:03,320
That's not cheating.
That's not cheating.

516
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:04,240
I'm not allowed to do it.
AM.

517
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:05,960
I I've seen them do it in class,
they always know how to do

518
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:07,280
apostrophes and they've got that
wrong.

519
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,200
Got a tap tap tap and that's
cheating it.

520
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,560
Is cheating and you know we can
go into another conversation

521
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,400
about why people would do it we
know we know exactly what I

522
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,120
don't think anyone listening
doesn't they can't immediately

523
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:19,640
fill that blank in right of why
people do that because it's hard

524
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,200
isn't it if you're if you're.
Still cheating though.

525
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:23,920
It's still cheating.
It's still bad.

526
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,440
It's yeah.
And but someone might say, OK,

527
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,520
yeah, but it's not as bad as me
just giving them the answers.

528
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,920
No, it's not.
So that's cheating.

529
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:32,800
I'm not cheating.
OK, so this is where this this

530
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,920
argument, this logic, I, I just
can't deal with it.

531
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:36,280
I'm going to be really honest
with you.

532
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,120
I can't deal with this at all.
When, when someone when you do

533
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:42,080
something that is wrong or
cheating and someone comes in

534
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:43,920
and say, well, it's not as bad
as this thing, is it?

535
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,040
No, it's not.
But then then it's like, so

536
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:48,920
therefore what I'm doing is
fine.

537
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:50,440
No wrong, wrong.
Both bad.

538
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:51,800
Let's role play.
Ready.

539
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:53,560
I'm trying to give.
I'm trying to push it with you.

540
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:54,280
See what you say?
Yeah.

541
00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:55,120
All right.
I'm walking around.

542
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:55,840
I'm in the test.
I'm.

543
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:57,640
I'm a teacher.
My kids are doing their test.

544
00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:58,920
I'm going to use the apostrophe
example.

545
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,120
I noticed little Dylan has got
the apostrophe question wrong.

546
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:04,040
And I know, I know from my
teacher's testing because I know

547
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:05,200
them better.
Than these always struggle with

548
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:06,480
that.
I know that he's good at it,

549
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:07,760
though.
I know he's good at it, right?

550
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:08,440
Yeah.
Not you.

551
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,240
You can't do it.
My this little Dylan that I

552
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,320
made-up can and and I think,
right, I don't want to cheat.

553
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:14,480
OK, I've seen he's done it
wrong.

554
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:15,800
I can't tell him the answer.
Nope.

555
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:17,680
Go to the side of the wall then.
He's super nervous.

556
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:18,640
He's super nervous.
He's right there.

557
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:20,120
He's right in front of me.
He just happens to be the

558
00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:21,320
closest one.
I'm at the wall already.

559
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:22,760
I'm following the rules.
Sure he's there.

560
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:24,360
I've seen it because obviously
I'm just looking around.

561
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:26,920
I'm naturally seeing it.
I know he can do it and I

562
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,920
really, really, really want him
to to be able to show that he

563
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,080
can.
He's the only chance he gets in

564
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:32,800
this test to prove that he can
get this objective that he's

565
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,080
done for four years.
I know he can do it.

566
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:35,480
So I'm just going to give him
another chance.

567
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,960
I'm going to tap on the desk,
just give a look.

568
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:39,560
Cheating should be like come
out, have another go.

569
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,080
Nothing to do it.
Have a little look.

570
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:42,520
He's anxious, bit he's anxious.
Cheating.

571
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,800
Give a smile, pat the back.
Give a smile, Pam.

572
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,400
He's nervous though.
He's nervous and I know it's

573
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,240
only cause of his nerves.
He's got this wrong so so I want

574
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,920
him to get it right.
I know you wanted to get him

575
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:53,240
right.
I want all these kids to get all

576
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,360
these questions right.
There's a million reasons why a

577
00:21:55,360 --> 00:21:56,800
kid might get a question wrong
on a test.

578
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,800
We can talk about whether a test
is a good indication of a

579
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,040
child's ability or not.
That's a separate conversation.

580
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,040
The fact of the matter is that
this test is happening.

581
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,160
This is how we do it.
This child will gain an unfair

582
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,360
advantage from me going to them
and saying I'll check this again

583
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,400
because if I do that, I need to
do it to all of them.

584
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,360
Yeah, exactly.
So it is just cheating.

585
00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:15,400
And it doesn't matter how much
you look at yourself and go, but

586
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,680
I just love him.
I just love you can care for him

587
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,600
all you want.
I care for my kids in my class

588
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:24,520
so much, and I care for my data
in terms of how they've improved

589
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,480
a lot.
And it can be frustrating when

590
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,240
you know they can do something
and they don't do it.

591
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,360
Yeah, but it doesn't matter
because you know what is more

592
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:32,080
important?
You know they can do it.

593
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:33,040
Yeah.
Yeah, that's it.

594
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:34,240
That's the important thing.
What?

595
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,120
Usually you smile and you go.
You give me a little bit of

596
00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:37,280
reassurance.
If you want to do that.

597
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:38,560
Keep going, mate.
Well done.

598
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,360
Yeah, let them crack on with it.
You got it wrong if it doesn't

599
00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:44,200
matter like we say it does,
right, you should not be

600
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,160
cheating.
It's it's just an oxymoron.

601
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,520
This is what I mean about this
is just you're just cheating.

602
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,320
It's wrong.
You can't say to the kids.

603
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:51,440
Kids, don't worry.
It doesn't matter.

604
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,120
This thing doesn't matter.
And that girl looks nervous that

605
00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:55,480
you said doesn't matter to you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

606
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,720
The test comes along you notice
she got it wrong and then she

607
00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,160
sees her teacher come up and go
tap, tap.

608
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:00,760
Check that out Well, sorry,
she's looking.

609
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,120
It just said it didn't matter
Well, it matters, though, so can

610
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:04,400
you change it, please?
I'm not worried now it.

611
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,000
Matters enough, because I know
you can do this one, love.

612
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,320
Exactly.
So it's just what I'm saying is

613
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,600
like it be the person you want
to be in that situation.

614
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,320
It's hard when you've got top
down pressure.

615
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,000
I've literally heard of actual
head teachers going around

616
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,080
during tests and tapping things
in schools that I've not worked

617
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:23,120
in.
But I've heard of this from

618
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:24,960
people who work in the school
where they've seen this happen.

619
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,040
Tap, tap tap.
Telling the kids to change their

620
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,520
answer.
Pure and simple cheating.

621
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,240
So they get headline data at the
end that looks better for them

622
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,880
and they can wallow in it.
It's personal game.

623
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,400
It's selfish.
It goes against everything you

624
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:38,920
tell the kids about how it
doesn't matter.

625
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:40,840
You're doing it for your own
reasons.

626
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,440
Don't do it.
What I always think as well that

627
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,000
helps me with that sort of stuff
have done for years and any

628
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:47,520
other teachers that are
thinking, oh, but the pressure's

629
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,400
there and it makes me want to do
it, but I don't want to do it

630
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:50,280
because I know it's the wrong
thing.

631
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:51,360
It is the wrong thing, Don't do
it.

632
00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:56,840
And just know this tests account
for silly mistakes like, yeah,

633
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,480
like the pass mark, the pass
mark accounts for that because

634
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,520
it was taken with real people.
So obviously, like the whoever

635
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,680
the sample cohort that are doing
these tests are, they're not all

636
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,240
robots.
And we're getting exactly what

637
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,000
they know right and exactly what
they don't know wrong.

638
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:10,680
They were making silly mistakes
as well.

639
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,760
So it's accounted for in the
like in the reflection of the

640
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,960
past data.
And and and it gives me a bit of

641
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:16,560
solace to think that I'm like,
yeah, you know, if I do notice

642
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,200
as a kid make a mistake, I'm
like, yeah, everyone makes

643
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:19,480
mistakes.
I make mistakes on the board in

644
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:20,880
front of the kids and then
correct it.

645
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,520
But in a test, if I made that
mistake tough, yeah, I got it

646
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:24,800
wrong.
Yeah, that's a great point.

647
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,520
Because if you look at the
amount of marks you need to pass

648
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,760
English for example, yes, that's
reading paper, it's half.

649
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,360
Yeah, it's like 2520.
Six, one year it was 24.

650
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,680
So I think 2023 it was 24 out of
50.

651
00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:38,840
Last year it was 27 out of 50.
It hovers around half and, and

652
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,400
that you're absolutely right
because what it means is there's

653
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,320
a bunch of hard questions in
there you'd get wrong because

654
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,320
you're not great at depth and
there's a bunch of questions you

655
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:46,800
can get wrong because you've
made a little mistake.

656
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:49,360
It is absolutely accounted for.
There's such a good way of

657
00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:51,280
looking at it.
And if you maximised all the

658
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,640
mistakes, and if, if it was just
a case of I'm the teacher, I

659
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,200
know they can do this, then you
might as well not do the tests.

660
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,040
Tests are literally built in
with that.

661
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,800
Like that's the whole point of a
test is to see what they can do

662
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:02,680
on their own.
Yeah.

663
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,720
If it's just to see what they
can literally do, we wouldn't

664
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:05,720
have a test.
Yeah.

665
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,760
So yeah, it's cooked into the
actual test itself of what the

666
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,400
test is.
And we can have a separate

667
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,240
conversation about whether
that's good or not, but that is

668
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:13,960
what the situation is.
So just let them crack on with

669
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:15,120
it.
My last question to you on on

670
00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:17,560
this whole line of thought here,
right is OK then.

671
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,560
So why does it happen so much?
Because I don't think the answer

672
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,480
is that, that there's loads of
teachers that went into this

673
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,360
career and they they're doing
the wrong thing because they

674
00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:28,400
want, they just want to boost
their own data.

675
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:29,640
I've like they're not, there's
not.

676
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,800
I don't think there's that many
bad teachers.

677
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,240
What do you think about that?
I agree with that.

678
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,120
I think a lot of people are
doing it because they really

679
00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:38,640
care for the kids and they want
the kids to show the best that

680
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,000
they can do.
I've heard of teaching

681
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,920
assistants before who've helped
during tests and they've gone,

682
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,640
oh, I just had to help him.
I just had to help him because I

683
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,680
know I did it with him the other
weekend group and I know he can

684
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,960
do it and he got it wrong.
Isn't that unfair?

685
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,600
And I have to be like, you're
wrong, Like you're wrong in that

686
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,600
it, it doesn't matter.
Like you're right in that he can

687
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,320
do it.
You're correct in saying that

688
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,640
it's frustrating.
All of that's correct, but the

689
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,560
light that he cannot go past
that line of them.

690
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,080
So you cheated.
You have to just be frustrated

691
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:09,720
and have the limitations of the
test.

692
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,240
Otherwise we just submit
coursework in primary school.

693
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,840
We just submit their English
book and say this is expected.

694
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,680
Here's their English book.
The point of a test includes

695
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,360
what they can recall on their
own.

696
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,120
And the fact of the matter is
that no matter how much you

697
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:25,640
think that child can do
apostrophes on their own, in the

698
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,000
test situation they couldn't.
And that's what the test is

699
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,120
designed to show.
And you can say that's not a

700
00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:32,560
useful thing to know.
You can say that's not helpful

701
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,560
in the long term.
You can argue how it doesn't

702
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,520
matter.
That's all fine.

703
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,440
But that is what the test is
showing.

704
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,200
So don't then change the test
because what happens is the test

705
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,600
data gets boosted.
You're a school who maybe

706
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,120
cheesed it a bit and pushed it a
bit.

707
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,040
You're getting better data than
other schools.

708
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,520
You're riding the wave of that
success.

709
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,120
And then you're justifying why
tests are a good thing because

710
00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:53,280
it's show your schools doing the
right thing.

711
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,880
No, if you want to actually get
solid data, be honest because

712
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,640
they're just children.
This isn't a business, it's not

713
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,360
as diverse as Tesco and who can
get the biggest profit share.

714
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,600
It's a school versus a school.
What?

715
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,840
Take out the verses.
What is this verses thing all

716
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:09,600
about?
Leave table?

717
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,120
It's just children we want to
help.

718
00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:15,360
I want children in the school 2
roads away from my school to do

719
00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:17,760
just as well as the children in
my school that I have currently

720
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,120
in front of me.
Because I don't care that they

721
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:21,600
come to this school with a badge
on.

722
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,080
I care that their children in
the next generation of our

723
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,400
society, I want them all to do
really well.

724
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,080
I'm not going to fight and cheat
to get my school up a bit.

725
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,160
I don't care.
I couldn't care less.

726
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:32,880
I just want kids to be better at
stuff.

727
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:34,920
And if you're better at stuff
because you did it fairly and

728
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:36,760
better than us, congratulations
to you.

729
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,040
We can share some good data and
you can tell me how why you did

730
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:40,720
that.
All we can just accept is their

731
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,600
family backgrounds and actually
we had a small impact.

732
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,960
Anyway.
All of this, all of this does

733
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:47,920
not mean we then go into a test
and cheat.

734
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,720
Nothing can convince me that
that's a sensible thing to do

735
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,720
for any reason.
It's nonsense.

736
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,600
It just feeds this idea that
tests are the most important

737
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,200
thing.
We spend all year telling people

738
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,600
how tests aren't important.
Most teachers don't like tests,

739
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,680
and then it comes to it and
we're like, oh gosh, yeah, boost

740
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,440
it, boost it, boost it.
That's going to feed into the

741
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,040
test culture and make people
want to keep it.

742
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,800
All for vanity metrics.
It's just nonsense.

743
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,360
I care about kids doing better
at things, and if I'm there at

744
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:15,040
the test going, I know you can
do apostrophes.

745
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,160
That's enough for me.
End of it.

746
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,520
Now I care more about my kids
getting a better numbers than

747
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,720
those kids from Tunbridge.
Well, so I can show how my

748
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,560
disadvantaged background didn't
matter because I did.

749
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,720
So now you just faked it?
Yeah, just faked it.

750
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,120
Like you didn't have that much
impact.

751
00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:28,720
Sorry mate.
Right.

752
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,560
So if we're going to be
consistent about this and be

753
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,120
professionals about it and be
above board, which a lot of

754
00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:35,080
people are, I think people
listen to that conversation and

755
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,840
think, oh, this is right.
The vast majority of places are

756
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,520
doing it correctly, but a bigger
chunk than you might see and

757
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:41,800
kind of definitely fudge in
things.

758
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:43,960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I I I'd almost go as far as

759
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,920
count of honestly just
disagreeing and saying I think

760
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,240
it's rife, maybe genuinely I I
my gut feeling.

761
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,360
That level of stuff is probably
really rife, yeah.

762
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,520
And if we get, because if we've
established that the line is you

763
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,480
just can't go over it at all.
You can't, you can't go over it

764
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,040
a little bit and be like, oh,
that's not so bad.

765
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,400
No, the line is the line.
It's rife because people are

766
00:28:58,400 --> 00:28:59,760
always going over that, doing
that little thing.

767
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,640
People have always got schools
with the Tas that are doing

768
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,000
that.
But just your intentions are

769
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:03,480
good.
But they did.

770
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:04,600
They broke the rules though they
didn't realise.

771
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,160
There's a reason why every
school will know to a tee who's

772
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,800
hovering around the around the
line of expected or not.

773
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,720
The only reason they know that
was was what would be.

774
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,600
Why would you need the
information if you weren't going

775
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:16,760
to push the lines and
boundaries?

776
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,320
Yeah, Yeah.
Because when it comes to the

777
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:19,760
test, you'll know who's on the
boundary.

778
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,160
You'll have them all SAT
together and you as the teacher

779
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,080
will probably be more likely,
even if you think you're not to

780
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,440
be like to.
Be nearer to be nearer them,

781
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:28,560
just in case you need me as a
reader.

782
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,320
Yeah, come on, come on.
It happens.

783
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,480
It happens.
There we go, that's a good chat.

784
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,120
Yeah, that's a great chat.
I enjoyed that a lot.

785
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,400
And if you're doing sex this
week, all the best to you and

786
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:37,960
your children.
I hope they absolutely smash it.

787
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,000
Hope they're happy and I hope
that the rest of the year after

788
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,600
it is really nice as well.
Let's talk about face schools.

789
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,360
We'll play the Jingle and we'll
have a good chat about that as

790
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:46,560
well.
Bit of a bit of a switch up

791
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,000
there, isn't it?
That's the face schools.

792
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,400
Right, Dylan, this whole
section, is this because of your

793
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,320
background and the new Pope say
so, isn't it?

794
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,640
So there is a new Pope that's
been elected.

795
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:00,680
Elected.
They're elected.

796
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,120
Anointed I don't.
Know God picks them.

797
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,120
I don't know.
Anyway, I I went to a Catholic

798
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:07,920
school.
So we're going to talk about

799
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,360
faith schools in general and
their role in the country and

800
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,040
whether or not they should be
around because it's a big

801
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:16,080
question.
Yeah, it's bold.

802
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,760
I went to a Catholic school.
You went to a non religious of.

803
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,520
England School Church, Yeah.
Church of England, Yeah.

804
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,400
OK, right.
So we both went into interface

805
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,360
schools, even Catholic and
Church of England.

806
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:26,680
Yeah, I was gonna say they're
leagues apart.

807
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,080
Yeah.
Like, for example, there's a new

808
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,280
Pope, right.
So my old Catholic school, yeah,

809
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,320
I can imagine at the minute, the
groundskeepers going around the

810
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,360
schools, changing those framed
pictures of the Pope that are in

811
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:36,360
every single room.
Yeah.

812
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,840
Because we had framed pictures
of the Pope in every single

813
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:39,400
room.
Yeah.

814
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:40,840
So you know what?
Catholicism is like the

815
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,560
ultimate.
Version of Christian that's very

816
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,000
different to I went to
assemblies and sung about Jesus.

817
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,720
Like honestly we went to the
church once or twice a year like

818
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:48,960
that.
Very different I think.

819
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,800
We went to church every week,
every week it was part of the

820
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,040
Friday timetable.
We went to church.

821
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:53,760
I can't believe that.
Yeah.

822
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,560
So we'll get we'll get into
those details, etcetera.

823
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,480
We'll dive into that.
But we've also worked in Church

824
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,240
of England schools.
We've worked in non religious

825
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,640
schools.
So we've got a good view.

826
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,720
I think about everything.
We've got a good experience

827
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,600
around it.
So let's dive into it.

828
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,800
I want to just give a bit of
background first about faith

829
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,040
schools.
So when we say a faith school in

830
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,200
general, we're talking about the
difference between a school that

831
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,240
is heavily influenced by
religion and may well be judged

832
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,600
by as well as Ofsted for their
education, like every single

833
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:26,760
school would be.
For example, a Church of England

834
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,240
school is judged by the diocese,
the local diocese who are in

835
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,680
charge of the church, who come
around and judge your school

836
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,320
based on how much they're
following the religious aspect

837
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,040
of how a school should.
Run give you a grading basically

838
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,200
on your on your religious.
Yeah.

839
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,440
So you get almost double, double
the amount of kind of scrutiny,

840
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,440
which is really interesting.
But in the UK there are around

841
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,240
7000 faith schools and the vast
majority of them are primary.

842
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,320
So a lot of people, I think, go
to a faith primary school and

843
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,480
like us, we went to a secondary
school that had nothing to do

844
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,920
with religion.
Sure. 98% of faith schools in

845
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,920
England are Christian.
Yep, makes sense that will.

846
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,320
Include Church of England and
Catholicism, etcetera.

847
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,280
And we have many other faith
schools in the UK, Judaism,

848
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,760
Islam, I think we even have some
Hindu and Sikh schools as well,

849
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,640
but they are very, very much in
the minority.

850
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,800
There's not many, no, there's
not many at all in the, in the

851
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,080
grand scheme of things.
And what I found really

852
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,320
interesting when doing a bit of
research about this was faith

853
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,560
schools in general are over
represented when it comes to

854
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,720
high Ofsted ratings.
So let's say for example, I'm

855
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,480
picking these plucking these
numbers that are thin air.

856
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,560
But what this essentially means
is if there are 10, let's say

857
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:36,280
1/3 of schools are faith schools
in the UK, which I think is

858
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,280
about right, it would mean that
way more than 1/3 of good or

859
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,280
outstanding schools.
Are faithful.

860
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,560
They're overly represented in in
those gradings.

861
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,640
Which which comes with lots of
questions about how you get into

862
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,120
those schools in the 1st place
is that segregation in a way

863
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:53,800
will come on to all these points
later on.

864
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,080
But I guess in general, Hayden,
maybe you could just go through

865
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,240
we, we have this system and like
everything in the UK where you

866
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,400
think that's, that's a bit odd,
isn't it?

867
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,960
Why do we have that?
Like it's rooted in history,

868
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:07,480
isn't it?
Yeah, it is quite a simple

869
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:08,600
history.
It's one of those things where

870
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,160
I'm like, I never really thought
about it.

871
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,080
It makes sense, doesn't it?
Yeah, it makes sense.

872
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,640
But basically, you know, a
couple, 100 years ago, education

873
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,600
in Britain was, was originally
driven by religious

874
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,400
institutions.
That's kind of how it got

875
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,600
standardised.
I guess in a in a way that's

876
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,160
always let's make education.
Religion was was the driving

877
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,080
force behind before that and
before the state got involved

878
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:28,280
and government had anything to
do with it.

879
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,440
Churches did provide most of the
schooling.

880
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,480
Obviously we've got the Church
of England, you know, and you

881
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,880
think back hundreds of years,
especially in the 18th and 19th

882
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:37,480
centuries.
So the Church of England and the

883
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,000
Roman Catholic Church were the
big boys.

884
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,720
They were the main players.
That's why no surprise.

885
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,640
A lot of schools like you went
to the government school.

886
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,800
I went to the Church of England
school and we both worked in

887
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,440
Church of England schools.
There's a lot of them.

888
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:47,760
It's embedded in the system,
isn't?

889
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,640
It Yeah, absolutely right.
So in the early 1800's, the

890
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,960
government began providing
funding to church schools.

891
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,720
So we can see this like merging
now states getting involved and

892
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:01,880
then in the late 1800s the
Education Act of 1871 be really

893
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,360
official introduced state funded
schooling.

894
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,400
So church schools still remained
prominent and was still the main

895
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,280
thing but the states getting
involved now of like of secular

896
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:11,480
schools so.
Yeah, Yeah.

897
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,120
What I'm really interesting
there is something just to

898
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:15,800
clarify, a lot of people might
be thinking they didn't know how

899
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,239
this worked.
Is the idea that schools were

900
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,080
around because of religion in
the 1st place and you know,

901
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,239
Christianity and then almost
after the government were like,

902
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,800
oh, we should probably, we
should probably educate our

903
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,159
masses, shouldn't we?
So it, it was already

904
00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:30,920
established.
And that makes a lot more sense

905
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,960
why they exist still maybe
today, because that whole idea

906
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,480
of they were already there.
And then this they kind of

907
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,400
stepped in, funded it and then
started creating schools

908
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,760
themselves.
So there was another act we

909
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,000
looked up the 1944 Education
Act, and that kind of was the

910
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:50,320
final cementation, if that's a
word of states, faith schools in

911
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,679
the state system.
So loads of religious schools

912
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:56,600
were kind of integrated into the
whole system that we have today.

913
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,720
So what we see today is
children, you know, you might be

914
00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:02,600
born in this local area in your
catchment area is this school,

915
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:04,400
Oh, it happens to be a religious
school as well.

916
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,000
So it might have some, some of
them don't have extra

917
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,000
stipulations to get in and they
can just accept you.

918
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,480
It doesn't matter what faith you
are, but it is a Christian

919
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,120
School or some of them do have
extra stipulation as well, which

920
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,520
we'll come on to is a very.
Common thing so this is

921
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,600
amalgamation, isn't it of like
of yeah, religious requirements

922
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:21,960
as well as it's, it's a state
funded school.

923
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,240
Sometimes I, I get confused
sometimes I'm like, well, who

924
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:26,320
controls this school?
There's a state school state

925
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,480
paying my salary.
But the but the Church of

926
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,120
England has like control over
me.

927
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,240
What how, why?
And it does get a bit confusing,

928
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:35,680
but you can see where the
history comes into play and how

929
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,360
we've got to the point.
Where and how the government at

930
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,560
some point had to be like, we
need to, you know, standardise

931
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,280
this.
We need to kind of OK, cool,

932
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,280
you've existed, you've ploughed
all that money into, we're going

933
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,840
to be grateful for that and
still have you in this bigger

934
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,320
system that we have.
So it is about 1/3 of state

935
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,200
funded schools are faith schools
that we talked about the

936
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,080
majority of Christian.
We have lots of other different

937
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:54,240
religions as.
Well, you know what?

938
00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:56,000
Not as high as I thought when we
first.

939
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,840
Really.
I really, really expected that

940
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,520
to be more than half.
Really.

941
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,560
Yeah, I was quite shocked to.
See, I wonder what what

942
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,520
percentage of that in a primary
school?

943
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,080
Yeah, yeah.
Primary schools, yeah.

944
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,560
So I reckon obviously it's
probably above that in terms of

945
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,200
primary schools, because if you
list all the primary schools in

946
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,960
your area, I bet a big chunk of
them are Cav.

947
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:15,440
Well.
Not if I reckon, yeah.

948
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,240
How many, how many primary
schools start with St?

949
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,200
Yeah, honestly, I know.
Like, literally.

950
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:21,560
Like, we work, we, we work at
1:00.

951
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,680
And it's like when you have to
try and Google your school.

952
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,720
Yeah, there's like, oh, there's,
there's seven others in the

953
00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:27,320
country that want the exact same
name.

954
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,920
It's like just start with St
where you're doing anything.

955
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:30,880
It's like that's not narrowed it
down.

956
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,320
Yeah, no, that has not narrowed
it down.

957
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,960
You name a person and put St
before them.

958
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,640
There's a school somewhere,
there's a St.

959
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:38,240
There's a there's a St Bob
somewhere.

960
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,360
It's got St Hayden do.
You think maybe that's the only

961
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,080
one that doesn't?
Exist in a few 100 years.

962
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,840
I don't know but what I want to
dive into really is I guess how

963
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,720
we feel about this because my
gut instinct always when I

964
00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:56,400
started off I was a young and
for complete clarity, I am an

965
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:57,880
atheist.
I don't have a religion.

966
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,040
And I saw this and I and I
thought, what?

967
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,840
That's ridiculous.
Why on earth is religion

968
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,440
involved whatsoever in the
schooling of our children?

969
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,240
And I think it's tempered over
the years.

970
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,160
It's lowered that kind of
outrage.

971
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,560
But I think I would say if I was
to design a system from the

972
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,520
ground up, I'd absolutely not
involve religion whatsoever in

973
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,120
education.
But knowing the history, I guess

974
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:25,600
I look at it and I go, that
makes sense now.

975
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,600
Do you reckon when you were that
age, whatever it was 21, what

976
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,040
have you said?
Do you reckon there were no pros

977
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,840
in your mind to religion and
state being combined?

978
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,280
Like would you if I'd asked you
then?

979
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,920
Do you think there are like pros
and cons of religious, like

980
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:39,920
religion being involved in
education, children?

981
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,560
Do you reckon you would have
been like no, religion should

982
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:43,800
not be involved or?
Do you I?

983
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,680
I would have said no, yeah.
But I I think because I'd be a

984
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,680
bit naive potentially.
What do you think now then?

985
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,320
I think there's OK.
I think there's positives to it

986
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,280
that you can, I don't think you
can argue against.

987
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,680
So, for example, the kind of
community and the cohesion

988
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,480
around it.
And I would say even to a

989
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,920
degree, the discipline and the
servitude that comes from being

990
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,880
in a Catholic school.
So I was in a Catholic school

991
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,320
and the literal, the the saying
of the school was something, it

992
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,240
ended in serviam, right, Which
is a Latin.

993
00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:22,800
It means I will serve, serve.
Yeah.

994
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,320
So it did.
It really did instil in me this

995
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,880
idea of serving other people and
I think for society and for

996
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,680
honestly like the the community
as a whole and your own mental

997
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,320
health, this idea that you give
to others.

998
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,240
If everyone had the attitude,
it's a net positive.

999
00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:42,440
It's.
Interesting that you say this

1000
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,280
because knowing you as an
outsider is your brain, I would

1001
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,720
say that is you.
I do feel like you have and

1002
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:51,480
association and, and like hold a
great value in this idea of

1003
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:52,160
service.
Yeah.

1004
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:54,200
And it's interesting now to me,
like to realise that.

1005
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:55,400
Oh, that's obviously where that
came from.

1006
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:56,480
Right.
Because I've always thought that

1007
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,760
about, you've always mentioned
that disproportionately to other

1008
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,280
things like values.
You've always been like service,

1009
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:02,000
like we should serve each other.
Yeah.

1010
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,360
That's, that's just so funny to
think that you, you're not a

1011
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:05,680
Catholic.
Like you've not taken away from

1012
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:06,560
that school.
I'm a Catholic now.

1013
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,240
But you have taken away that
value, which is, you could argue

1014
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:11,640
objectively, a good value to
have in a community that needs

1015
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,160
to exist and function.
So this is where today I think

1016
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,960
I'd, I'd like to maybe talk more
about these positives now,

1017
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,360
because I think I've moved a
little bit.

1018
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,840
I don't think you can argue
against that whatsoever.

1019
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,280
I think it's very clear that the
these values that you can instil

1020
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,160
in these religious kind of ways
of going about life.

1021
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,240
I think those ones, if you want
to cherry pick, you can say that

1022
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:36,480
that's positive, right?
I would still say in general you

1023
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,120
can instil these values without
the religious aspect of it

1024
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,120
because for two reasons.
Number one, I'm I'm not

1025
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,560
religious and I still have this
idea of service because I think

1026
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,360
it's good for society, not
because God told me to in a

1027
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,440
book.
And the other side of it is I

1028
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:56,280
also then I don't think a lot
there's a, there's a whole chunk

1029
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,280
of the religion that's saying
Catholicism that I fundamentally

1030
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,320
disagree with.
So I, you know, I don't want to

1031
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:02,400
cherry.
Pick so if that's part of the

1032
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,840
package you're saying well, if I
have to have the whole package,

1033
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,360
I still probably think it's a
net loss, right.

1034
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:07,600
Exactly.
Yeah, one of the big things to

1035
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,440
me is very much what you just
said is I've spoken to parents

1036
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,840
over the years who have
literally said to me, I want my

1037
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,520
kid to go to this school and not
that school.

1038
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,200
They're they're not religious.
By the way, it's important

1039
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:19,560
context.
Parents are not religious.

1040
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,920
I want my kid to go to this
religious school because they

1041
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:24,720
literally just instil better
values.

1042
00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:26,920
The Christian values that they
teach there are just good

1043
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,080
values.
And I just want my kid to have

1044
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,560
those values growing up, not
because I'm religious or because

1045
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:32,880
I even care if they're religious
or not.

1046
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,200
And that always challenged me
because I had a very similar

1047
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:36,640
mindset to you.
There's no surprise.

1048
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,200
We've become such good friends.
We have very similar like paths

1049
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,920
through path through life.
And I was very much the same.

1050
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,160
And that really did challenge my
notion of sort of religious

1051
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,000
schools, which is non religious
parents are choosing to send

1052
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:49,680
their kids there when they've
got an option that where they

1053
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,320
don't, they don't have, you
know, it's not a religious

1054
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:52,960
school.
Right.

1055
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,560
So there's the, the point I
think that we've got as growing

1056
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,520
up is as a parent choosing where
your child goes to school, there

1057
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,080
is way more to take into account
than simply if it's a faith

1058
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:03,840
school or not.
Yeah, I think that can be part

1059
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:05,080
of it and it should be part of
it.

1060
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,040
But if like even coming onto
another aspect of arguments that

1061
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,080
I've heard for why faith schools
are still around, Yeah.

1062
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,240
Is that whole idea we talked
about earlier of they get

1063
00:41:14,240 --> 00:41:16,000
disproportionately better Ofsted
reviews?

1064
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:17,720
Yeah, Yeah, they get
disproportionately better

1065
00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:22,400
academic outcomes.
So again, personally, is that

1066
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,360
the be on end all for me?
Potentially not, I would say,

1067
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:26,680
because I think it's a whole
package.

1068
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:29,840
You'd have to look at it.
But for a lot of parents, how

1069
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,400
can you argue against that?
Yeah, of course.

1070
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,680
How can you say?
If you look at school, I know

1071
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,960
friends who have ammed an ARD
because they're very similar to

1072
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,600
us, where religion and the
doctrines that come with it,

1073
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,040
especially Christianity.
Having grown up in a Catholic

1074
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,880
school for me and a family
that's very Christian, my, my,

1075
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,440
my mum's Christian, my, my
granddad's very religious.

1076
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:50,320
I haven't grown up in that
aspect.

1077
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,040
It's, it's a big part of my life
to choose not to.

1078
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,680
So when I, when I'm looking at
this, I understand that for me

1079
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,080
it's massively skewed.
And for the, but for the average

1080
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,800
Joe, they can probably say, oh,
look, I don't agree with that.

1081
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,480
But if my, if my kids going to
make better progress and make

1082
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,080
better friends and have and be
in a well behaved like society

1083
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,320
because they're going to this
school and the environment's

1084
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:10,720
better for them, obviously it's
better.

1085
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,600
And I've got friends who are in
that boat right now who I know

1086
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,840
are going to choose to send
their child to a Catholic school

1087
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,200
because the outcomes are better.
And if we're saying, well, some

1088
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:24,160
schools are better than others,
right?

1089
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,520
That's just the fact the best
school in their area is a

1090
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:31,080
Catholic school.
So he's he's he's not willing to

1091
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,800
say, well, I disagree with the
fact there's a religious school

1092
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,840
because Catholic schools can be
quite indoctrinating in terms of

1093
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,360
this is what happened and this
is the way it is and etcetera.

1094
00:42:39,720 --> 00:42:43,120
He's willing to forego that and
just teach that to his child as

1095
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:43,680
well.
That's a choice.

1096
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,240
Don't worry about that, because
everything else is going to

1097
00:42:46,240 --> 00:42:48,160
overcome it.
Because clearly some children

1098
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:49,840
don't get indoctrinated.
You didn't, right?

1099
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:51,920
So clearly there is an option
there where a parent might be.

1100
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,000
So I don't really want my child
to be indoctrinated into this,

1101
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:55,960
but they are going to make the
best academic progress there.

1102
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:57,400
And I care more about that.
And I can.

1103
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,840
Yeah, I get that.
I think for me personally, I'd

1104
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:01,720
really struggle.
In fact, I wouldn't struggle

1105
00:43:01,720 --> 00:43:02,720
because I wouldn't, I wouldn't
do it.

1106
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:04,560
In all honesty.
I think it comes down to

1107
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,280
personal choice, doesn't it?
At this point, it's like I

1108
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,760
wouldn't want to take the risk
of my child being indoctrinated

1109
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,720
into a religion by other people,
by anyone, in fact, including

1110
00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:12,760
me.
That sounds really, that sounds

1111
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,480
really like controlling.
I don't want them to risk my

1112
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,760
child being indoctrinated into a
religion when they're at that

1113
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:20,840
age where they can't make up
their own minds like they're

1114
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,240
they're just a sponge.
Your brain's a sponge.

1115
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:23,520
I wouldn't want to take that
risk.

1116
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,880
Even if they get better academic
results, yeah, they might get a

1117
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,480
better maths grade, but now
they've been indoctrinated into

1118
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,000
a religion.
I'd be like, that's, that's a

1119
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,040
huge net loss.
That's so much more of a net.

1120
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,120
Loss So would it be different to
you then, for example, I'm

1121
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,720
thinking now of my experience
with Catholic schools and Church

1122
00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:40,400
of England schools.
Is there a difference in your

1123
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,080
mind then about how the school
go about it?

1124
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,920
So for example, the fact it's a
religious school on its own, is

1125
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,520
that still to you enough of an
issue where it outweighs

1126
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,360
everything else or the positives
we're talking about here in

1127
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,160
general?
And you know, we, I've, I've

1128
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,680
seen schools before who are
Church of England, for example,

1129
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,040
who honestly might as well not
be in terms of like, it's

1130
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,480
literally such a, a small part
of how they go about their day.

1131
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,440
And they just say, isn't this a
good value to have?

1132
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,240
And Jesus had this value in this
religion that we read from this

1133
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:09,680
extract.
Get on with your day.

1134
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,560
Like so is, is there again a
line here where you're like, OK,

1135
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,160
Catholic school to go to church.
I used to take Mass every

1136
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:16,840
Friday.
I'd eat the bread of Christ

1137
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,920
being told it's his body, right?
I'd, I would be told that that

1138
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,480
is the body of Christ and that
Noah's ark happened.

1139
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:27,120
And, and that's very different
to Jesus said help each other go

1140
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:28,480
under your maths.
Yeah, absolutely.

1141
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,240
I'd send my kids to Church of
England school without even

1142
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:31,720
thinking about it, right,
Because to me it's just, it's

1143
00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:34,200
just so timid.
It's so tame on the in the lines

1144
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,760
of indoctrination.
Catholic schools to me are a big

1145
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,800
no because I'm like, they are,
they're just, they are just

1146
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,200
indoctrination.
I don't like people can have

1147
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:42,560
their opinions and that's just
my opinion.

1148
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:43,920
They.
Are and for some families that

1149
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:45,880
might they they choose to do
that yeah because they want a

1150
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,280
Catholic family I want yeah
that's all my opinion but then

1151
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,560
but but OK there's taking a step
back a little bit because

1152
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,120
indoctrination has very heavy.
I'm saying it's a.

1153
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,560
I know you are, I know you are,
but, but there might be a family

1154
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,280
who is a Catholic family.
And again, whether we think it's

1155
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,400
right or not to put put
something onto the children when

1156
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,840
they're just children, that
might be what they want to do to

1157
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:07,880
help raise their children.
And then they don't care and

1158
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,000
therefore they send them.
I guess my issue here is that

1159
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,320
that's fine and I don't have an
issue with that in terms of, OK,

1160
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,480
it's your child, OK, I might
disagree with it, but it's not

1161
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,240
illegal.
Do what you want to do.

1162
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,400
Where I have a bit of an issue
is when these faith schools that

1163
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,640
are saying this is what it is,
by the way, and aren't secular.

1164
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:28,280
Yeah.
Are funded by the taxpayer.

1165
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,040
I've got a problem.
Oh, that's interesting.

1166
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:32,920
I've got a problem.
They can exist.

1167
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,080
Happen.
Yeah, sure.

1168
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:36,880
Yeah.
But if you're being funded by

1169
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,800
the taxpayer, then it has to be
secular.

1170
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,120
Yeah, that, well, that's a big,
that's a big claim because that

1171
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,200
opens up everything then doesn't
because all, like all schools

1172
00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:48,760
are funded by the taxpayer,
right.

1173
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:50,520
Yeah, so if you're a faith
school, you shouldn't.

1174
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:52,440
You're saying none of them could
be faith schools because they're

1175
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:53,480
all funded by the.
Taxpayer.

1176
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:54,720
No.
What I'm saying is it can

1177
00:45:54,720 --> 00:45:57,760
because it's the law.
Yeah, but I sits oddly with me.

1178
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:58,160
Yeah.
Yeah.

1179
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,440
That anything funded by the
taxpayer isn't secular.

1180
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,000
I think church feel right.
Church and state should be

1181
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:03,880
separate.
Yeah.

1182
00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:09,960
And I don't like the idea of
state money funding a school

1183
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,320
that is telling people that the
world was definitely created in

1184
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,000
seven days and this is a
religion you should follow, and

1185
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:16,000
you're eating the body of
Christ.

1186
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:17,280
And this is true and this is a
fact.

1187
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Have a religion exist and

1188
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:21,720
believe whatever you want
because you're in a society

1189
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:23,920
where you should do that.
But when it's propped up by

1190
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,440
state funding, it's a bit like
what?

1191
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,280
That's a bit odd, isn't it?
It doesn't sit right with me.

1192
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,800
Yeah, I've never thought about
that, but that's I guess another

1193
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,520
one where it's really hard to
draw the line where I'm like,

1194
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,320
well.
Right, because it just would I

1195
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,200
care about a Church of English.
I mean, would you care about a

1196
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:39,640
Church of England mean school?
Because you're like, Oh no,

1197
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:41,600
because they're not doing I.
Guess I guess my point here

1198
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,400
would be like if you're funded
by the state, just take out the

1199
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,880
religion part.
Just take it out.

1200
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:48,960
But again, that wouldn't that
just be all the schools?

1201
00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:51,520
No, because not all schools are
all right.

1202
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:56,080
So OK, So what I'm getting at is
my fundamental belief, which

1203
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,200
again, I think it's good.
It's good to have world views.

1204
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,480
Doesn't mean everything changes
for you straight away, but my

1205
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,760
fundamental world view is that
state and church should be

1206
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,200
separate.
So fundamentally I think faith

1207
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,120
schools should not exist in the
context of being funded by the

1208
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:10,760
state.
OK.

1209
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:12,160
So that's my fundamental view
that.

1210
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,120
Makes more sense to me.
I get that because I because I

1211
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:18,120
also, I also believe that
education and religion should

1212
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:19,480
not be entwined to the level
that they are.

1213
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,800
I don't think they should.
I don't think Church of England

1214
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,840
schools should honestly exist in
to the point where they could.

1215
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,520
They could reasonably, if they
want to have some sort of

1216
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:34,440
indoctrination process involved
where they are entwining their

1217
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,000
learning of maths and English
and other subjects with

1218
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:38,760
religion.
And I think Catholic schools are

1219
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,000
the easiest ones to pick on
because they do it so much more

1220
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:42,520
blatantly and obviously.
Right, Right.

1221
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:44,720
Sure.
And, and again, we've worked in

1222
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,400
and been in Catholic and Church
of England schools.

1223
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,600
I can't talk for the other faith
schools I've not been in no

1224
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,520
exactly.
But I, but I know 11 kind of

1225
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:54,240
criticism of them is the same
thing.

1226
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,240
It's like what we're saying of
Catholicism.

1227
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,640
It's the same idea of, well, you
are going there and being taught

1228
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:01,960
this thing as true, which isn't
necessarily true.

1229
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,160
It's very different to going to
school and being taught how to

1230
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,920
read and being taught they
should be separate.

1231
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:08,240
Come on, separate them out in
my.

1232
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:10,080
Opinion.
Whereas in Church of England

1233
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,080
schools generally it's it's it's
very liberal anyway.

1234
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,240
If anything it's over the last
decade even interested my time

1235
00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:18,480
in teaching.
I feel like every sort of

1236
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,960
official thing I've seen from
the diocese where I've worked on

1237
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,640
Church of England school for
most of my career, it's every

1238
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,840
single time I see an iteration,
it's always a bit more like, you

1239
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,080
know what, Actually, we're just
more about encouraging children

1240
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,000
to learn about, we're actually
not going to shove it down their

1241
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,120
throats at all anymore.
And it's all about, OK, we might

1242
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,280
disproportionately teach them
about Christianity a little bit

1243
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:37,640
more, but we do teach them about
all of it.

1244
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,800
And, and at no point do we say
you have to believe this.

1245
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,680
Even things being introduced
like spirituality, Hinduism, not

1246
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,480
Hinduism, sorry, humanism, those
kind of things, like not just

1247
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,720
those traditional big six
religions we always talk about,

1248
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,240
but these ideas of like, you
know, actually what is the self

1249
00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:52,800
and the meditation and things
like that.

1250
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:54,600
That's good.
I think that that's good to do

1251
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:59,240
and I think even in state
schools that you should have a a

1252
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,360
good solid religious education
policy because you're learning

1253
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,840
about society, you're learning
about people and you might be

1254
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,120
see yourself in there and that
is also fine.

1255
00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:10,600
I just think there is just a
step we could take away from it

1256
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,120
being funded.
And I'd say that's probably the

1257
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,920
first criticism is that whole
public funding model.

1258
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:16,800
But there's a private aspect to
it.

1259
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:18,680
They can just choose to kind of
do this religious.

1260
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:20,800
Aspect, for sure.
One of my biggest regrets as a

1261
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,480
kid, like looking back on my
life, one of my biggest regrets

1262
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,400
is how naive I was to what
religious education was right.

1263
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,160
I had and I was, as you can
probably imagine, a very

1264
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,400
arrogant, stubborn kid.
But Can you imagine you?

1265
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:35,880
I had four.
Mr I've got a podcast and I

1266
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:37,440
didn't want to listen to anyone
elses thoughts.

1267
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,880
Wow.
I was, I had very strong views

1268
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,160
from a very young age and I felt
like.

1269
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:45,440
You watched a lot of Christopher
Hitchens on YouTube.

1270
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:46,640
Probably.
Probably.

1271
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,160
Yeah.
And I felt like a lot of the

1272
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,840
world was insane for not
thinking exactly how I thought.

1273
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,240
A classic kid, 14 year old
thinking is the best about

1274
00:49:53,240 --> 00:49:55,560
everything.
And one of the things I did

1275
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,440
growing up was I did not take
Ari seriously.

1276
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:01,480
In fact, I got kicked out of Ari
when I was at secondary school.

1277
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,720
I actually got permanently
excluded from religious

1278
00:50:03,720 --> 00:50:05,200
education.
Considering that's religious

1279
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,440
education, where a big part of
it is forgiveness, you must have

1280
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:08,720
really pushed it.
Yeah, I did.

1281
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,480
Because I was.
I can't think of a word that's

1282
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,040
not swearing.
I wasn't very nice because I had

1283
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:17,240
this belief.
The RE was designed to

1284
00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:19,040
indoctrinate me and I hated
that.

1285
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,800
And I was like, how dare you
tell me what to believe And I

1286
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,760
believe what I want.
And it wasn't that at all.

1287
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,200
But I was so naive and caught up
in my own ego and everything

1288
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:28,400
you've.
Seen Richard Dawkins going off

1289
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,200
on one and you're like
literally.

1290
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,960
Yeah, it's embarrassing to the
point now, like I actually love

1291
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,400
teaching irony because it's not
remotely what I thought it was.

1292
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,120
And I feel like I'm doing my
time now when I when I teach

1293
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,880
kids now I'm actively thinking,
Christ, what do I need to do to

1294
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,560
not make them like I was because
something went wrong with my

1295
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,480
education where I thought that I
was being indoctrinated into

1296
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:49,400
religion and I completely
dismissed the whole subject.

1297
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:53,400
Yeah, So I constantly, probably
over the top now when I'm

1298
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,360
teaching our way to my kids, I'm
constantly referencing that I'm

1299
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:58,160
like, this is nothing to do with
my beliefs or your beliefs.

1300
00:50:58,160 --> 00:50:59,720
This is other people.
And we're just learning about

1301
00:50:59,720 --> 00:51:01,160
them because we exist with them.
Yeah, absolutely.

1302
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:02,840
We exist alongside them.
I'm never going to tell you what

1303
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:03,960
to think.
I'm never going to tell you what

1304
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:04,360
to believe.
Yeah.

1305
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:05,120
And that's it.
And that's.

1306
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:06,560
The way it should be, that is
the way it should be.

1307
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,920
And I guess thinking about, you
know, the bad parts, we talked

1308
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,440
about public funding, private,
you know, being almost like a

1309
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,800
private school, but with public
funding money and it going down

1310
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,840
that road.
You talked about there of like

1311
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,920
how you can be like, no, I'm
telling you this is true and how

1312
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,120
that can alienate people that I
think that's another negative.

1313
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,680
We can alienate people like you
RE whether you're in a state

1314
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:30,680
school that's funded and and
you're a church school or not,

1315
00:51:30,720 --> 00:51:33,000
it doesn't matter.
RE can be a really powerful

1316
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:34,360
subject that's taught really
well.

1317
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,760
The issue becomes when it's told
this is true, this is like we're

1318
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:40,880
doing a science lesson on
chlorophyll and next lesson

1319
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:42,480
we're learning about how the
world was made in three days.

1320
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:45,080
Like these don't sit together.
You can't do evolution and

1321
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,640
creation as both fact.
So they just don't sit next to

1322
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:49,880
each other properly.
So just just separate it out.

1323
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:52,200
Still exist, still talk about it
so important.

1324
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,480
And and the other big thing that
just jumps to my mind, that

1325
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:57,600
every single person in this
country will know someone who's

1326
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,200
done this, who pretends to be
part of religion to get their

1327
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:01,440
kid into school.
Yeah.

1328
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,000
So we talked about earlier like
the closest school to you might

1329
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,440
be a Catholic school That's
really good.

1330
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,040
And you think, oh, I'm quids in.
And then you go to apply and

1331
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:09,920
like, are you, are you Catholic?
No.

1332
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:11,960
Oh, you've got to be Catholic to
come here.

1333
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:13,320
But I live around a corner.
This is my.

1334
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,440
This is just my school.
This is no, no, no, sorry.

1335
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:19,880
So it's OK, this is going to
sound ridiculous because there's

1336
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:23,600
been actual segregation before,
which is horrendous, But that if

1337
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:27,680
you look up what segregation is,
faith schools like that, that is

1338
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,520
segregation.
It's a big argument against it.

1339
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:30,720
Isn't it?
It's segregation.

1340
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,520
Oh, so I'm, I'm a, I'm a
taxpayer and I'm actually paying

1341
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:35,240
for your school to exist.
And I live right next to you.

1342
00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:38,000
And we all agree that the whole
system of schooling is closest

1343
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,840
to you.
Can I come to this school?

1344
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:41,880
Are you a Catholic?
Well, no, but I've just

1345
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,040
explained why I should gain
entry because I've literally met

1346
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:45,280
all the requirements of the
state.

1347
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:46,320
Oh.
Sorry, you're going to have to

1348
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:48,280
come to evening sessions and get
your child baptised.

1349
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:50,760
What?
Can Yeah, What?

1350
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:52,800
And people fake it like it's the
same with Church of England.

1351
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:54,440
Like there are some Church of
England schools that have a

1352
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:55,920
requirement as well that you
visit church.

1353
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,440
It might not be as strict as
Catholic, but there are rules in

1354
00:52:58,440 --> 00:52:59,480
place.
We have one near us.

1355
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:01,280
Like, we grew up with one near
us, didn't we?

1356
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:05,400
So I always have it in my mind
where you have to be actively

1357
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,760
going to church and be a be a
churchgoer.

1358
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,880
And everyone knows people fudge
and you have to be all pretend.

1359
00:53:11,240 --> 00:53:13,440
Have to get signed from your
local church that you go to

1360
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,400
church and yeah, it's just
always, it's always fun.

1361
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,360
I there's no way 100% of the
families going to that that

1362
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:20,960
school that we've got in mind
are religious.

1363
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:22,480
If anything, probably less than
half.

1364
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:24,320
Like it's crazy.
If you look at the percentage of

1365
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,240
people who are actually
religious and the percent like

1366
00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:29,720
in terms of Christianity, for
example, and the percentage of

1367
00:53:29,720 --> 00:53:30,840
primary schools that are
Christian.

1368
00:53:31,720 --> 00:53:33,720
There's a big gap, yeah.
It doesn't match up it.

1369
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,200
Doesn't match up, and it's not
just like magic that it does.

1370
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,280
That rule seems so archaic and
does not fit to me.

1371
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,960
It didn't fit to me 25 years ago
when I first thought about it.

1372
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,160
It was an extremely smart 7 year
old from these things.

1373
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:46,680
The thing about my podcast I was
going to do, it did.

1374
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:47,960
It's never fit in my whole
lifetime.

1375
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,560
I've always thought that seems
weird and like something we

1376
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:52,160
should probably get rid of
because that I've made.

1377
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,480
I don't live in the 1800s now,
so why are we doing that?

1378
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,240
Still around though.
So it's true, though I do think

1379
00:53:57,240 --> 00:53:59,040
that's a bit odd.
I think, yeah, in general that

1380
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,080
those kind of summarised the
arguments against which is the

1381
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,320
whole public funding faith
schools.

1382
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,320
But then faith schools turning
around to the public and saying,

1383
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,800
no, you can't come.
That's not equitable or fair.

1384
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,280
That's a bit strange.
And if if the justification for

1385
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,600
that is that in the 1800s you
started this school about the

1386
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,240
government, let's just move on
maybe from that a little bit.

1387
00:54:15,240 --> 00:54:18,080
It is like segregation in that
respect, literally.

1388
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,000
And again, we talked about the
whole concerns in the curriculum

1389
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,560
creating children like you.
Heaven forbid God, I don't want

1390
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:24,920
to do that again.
But you don't.

1391
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:26,400
But creating, creating people
like you?

1392
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:30,440
The outlook comes solely from
that kind of idea of we're going

1393
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:31,960
to create people and
indoctrinate them into

1394
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:33,320
restriction.
This is exactly what it is, by

1395
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:37,120
the way, because I'm teaching
you in a school or and then they

1396
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:40,080
believe it all the same children
go, what are you talking about?

1397
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,000
I remember being in year 2 and
I'm not exaggerating right now.

1398
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,280
I promise you this is one of my
first memories.

1399
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:47,520
Maybe it was year two.
OK, bad memory.

1400
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:49,160
I don't know when it was
exactly, but I was in I was in

1401
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,400
Infant School.
Yeah, so and and I was being

1402
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,640
read the story of Noah's Ark and
my teacher said this is this

1403
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,760
happened, This is true.
And I remember clear as day

1404
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,720
going that's impossible.
But I just remember thinking,

1405
00:55:01,720 --> 00:55:04,040
no, it's not.
And being annoyed at her and

1406
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:07,560
being like, are you like, even
at that age being like you like

1407
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:08,600
if you've met a year 2, you
could.

1408
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:09,360
Probably.
Hang on a minute.

1409
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:10,920
You just taught me maths, which
I know is true.

1410
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:12,960
You just taught me this.
You taught me to write and now

1411
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:14,560
you're telling me this like it's
the same thing.

1412
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:15,640
But hang on a minute, there's a
lot of.

1413
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,200
Kids there who'll be going like,
oh the Great fire of London

1414
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,120
learnt all about that, That must
have been amazing when it

1415
00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:21,600
happened.
Oh Jesus, walked on water, well

1416
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,280
learnt all about that.
That must have been amazing when

1417
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,200
that happened.
And then it's just not the same.

1418
00:55:25,240 --> 00:55:28,640
You might believe in that, but
it's not the same.

1419
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,600
Yeah, it's a it's a faith and
it's history.

1420
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:33,080
Just separate them.
That's.

1421
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:35,680
And that day you went home and
went, oh, thank God, the Easter

1422
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:37,960
Bunny's been there.
I've got to start these other.

1423
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,760
Things, Yeah, I, I again, I was,
it's, I, I've said this a

1424
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,040
million times.
I don't like that either.

1425
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,120
I know you said I don't and I'm
going to do it because it's

1426
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:47,360
magical and all that kind of
stuff.

1427
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:49,640
But, you know, eventually I do
sit them down and say the Easter

1428
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:50,920
Bunny is something I made-up.
Yeah.

1429
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:52,680
These church schools aren't
sitting the kids down in year 6

1430
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,160
and saying, oh, by the way, you
can choose what you want to do.

1431
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,000
I'm not even joking, but they're
like, can you save these?

1432
00:55:58,000 --> 00:55:59,840
Because we need numbers.
It wouldn't be indoctrination if

1433
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:01,480
you give them a choice at the
end really, would it?

1434
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:02,760
It would just be.
I just teach them as if it's

1435
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:04,960
true.
So I guess let's wrap this up a

1436
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:06,680
little bit with some final
thoughts.

1437
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:11,920
The big questions here are, in
my fundamental view, that

1438
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:13,760
education should be completely
secular.

1439
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:15,480
Yeah.
You know, should we move towards

1440
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:17,240
that?
It's it's honestly if if I'm

1441
00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:19,680
looking at education as a whole,
don't bother with that right

1442
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:21,560
now.
It's not top of the agenda.

1443
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:23,320
No.
I can be idealistic all I want,

1444
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,760
and that is what I believe.
But come on.

1445
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:27,920
Like, no, don't.
Can you fix schools first?

1446
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:31,120
Yeah, I think that's a very
mature answer to that and not an

1447
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:32,880
answer I would have given again
complete years ago.

1448
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,200
I would have been like, this is
the top priority because it it

1449
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,680
hits me raw and emotional
because I didn't enjoy it.

1450
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,320
Really realistically, yeah, if
you actually look at it, they're

1451
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:43,400
not doing that a good a job
because really, like really,

1452
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,920
really faith, people of faith is
reducing in numbers constantly

1453
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:48,920
over time.
So clearly it's not, you know,

1454
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,000
it's not like some well oiled
machine of we're we're sat in a

1455
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,640
country full of Catholics and
and Christians.

1456
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:56,480
We're not Rab really.
So it's not doing that.

1457
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,960
I'm not that worried about it.
But I do fundamentally think

1458
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:04,160
that teaching kids maths,
English and geography when their

1459
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:06,640
brains are sponges and the whole
point of that relationship is

1460
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:08,360
you're a fond of knowledge and
trust.

1461
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,040
I don't think we should then
just sprinkle in Oh, and this

1462
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,960
thing, by the way, which could
like, it's a, it's a, it's a

1463
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:15,640
belief system.
Yeah, it could be any faith,

1464
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:18,920
insert any faith and put it
with, with all those things that

1465
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:20,520
are just objective truth about
education.

1466
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:22,960
In fact, I'm like, that doesn't
sit right with me though.

1467
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:26,480
So ultimately, long term, if I,
if I could skip 100 years, I

1468
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:30,920
would like to see that when
maybe in a state where a fine

1469
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,160
religious schools might still
exist, but they're, they're self

1470
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:35,960
funded by by the faith
themselves and parents can

1471
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,080
choose to send the kids there.
And we have an entire state

1472
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,920
system where it's like the only
purpose of this is to educate

1473
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:42,120
them in the subjects that we all
agree on.

1474
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:44,520
Including religious education.
Including religious education.

1475
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:46,240
But we are not here to tell
children what to believe.

1476
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:48,800
Yeah, I guess that's get that's
the more realistic next step.

1477
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:50,720
Like we're always trying to
think of a solution here.

1478
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:53,680
Like we don't just sit and moan.
It's not realistic to change

1479
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:55,240
that overnight.
What we said about there being

1480
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:56,800
in faith schools or not, and
that's fine.

1481
00:57:56,920 --> 00:57:58,720
But what we can change is the
attitude.

1482
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,520
What we can change overnight is
actually just a straight up rule

1483
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:03,520
where you're closer to that
school, you get into that

1484
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:05,640
school.
Yeah, it's already a bad system

1485
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:08,720
with the post code lottery in
terms of that's why house prices

1486
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:10,840
got their better scores.
That's already broken.

1487
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:13,320
But adding this extra layer of
is your child baptised?

1488
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:15,080
Yeah.
No, I didn't pour holy water on

1489
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:16,920
my kids head.
Can they come and learn some

1490
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,240
math please?
Yeah, but the idea that's that

1491
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:21,720
is just crazy to me.
That, I think is something we

1492
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:25,760
could move quickly into just
taking away, like just go to a

1493
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:27,360
school.
Especially when teachers at

1494
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:29,120
Catholic schools don't always
even need to be a Catholic

1495
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:30,680
themselves.
So it's like you're literally

1496
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,120
saying that maths teacher in
there who I know is not a

1497
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:36,240
Catholic.
Can I can my kid please be

1498
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:37,800
taught by them?
No because your kid needs to be

1499
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:39,640
a Catholic.
It's just so like what is this

1500
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:41,480
barrier?
Why is this hurdle here?

1501
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,840
So, so I think the the ultimate
goal here is that really

1502
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,160
schools, a lot of schools can
still modernise a bit more.

1503
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:51,800
Britain is so multicultural and
it has so many benefits that we

1504
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,760
can lean into that a bit more.
I think the idea of face

1505
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,240
schooling schools existing, a
lot of people might be like, oh,

1506
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:59,040
it's historical, it's what we
have in our country.

1507
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:00,960
Do you know what?
That's not important to me, but

1508
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:03,440
I fine.
But you know, this is what we

1509
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:06,200
can do.
What we can do is make sure a

1510
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:09,440
child goes through school
knowing that they have autonomy

1511
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:12,360
to believe what they like in
this respect and that eventually

1512
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:15,160
they'll choose that themselves.
That's what I want for us as a

1513
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:17,200
teacher.
I don't want to do anything

1514
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:20,440
other than empower the child to
understand that how the world

1515
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:24,680
is, what it involves, and that
they're ultimately in charge of

1516
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:26,320
what they believe.
Yeah, that's what I care about.

1517
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:28,440
I'll leave because I agree with
everything, so I'll leave it on

1518
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:31,640
this point.
I I think it's funny how public

1519
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:36,400
are so quick to jump on it as or
new stories of teachers if

1520
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,680
they've bought remotely their
own political ideas into school.

1521
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:41,160
Right?
You should, you should be

1522
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:42,040
objective.
You're a teacher.

1523
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:44,640
You're here to teach the
curriculum in the same breath,

1524
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:46,400
completely fine with Catholic
schools and this thing.

1525
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,680
It doesn't make sense to me.
How dare you, How dare you teach

1526
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:51,000
my child about these political
views.

1527
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:52,960
You are slightly more biassed
towards Labour when you're

1528
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:54,920
teaching this.
You shouldn't be instilling my

1529
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:55,680
child.
Any opinions?

1530
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:57,840
That's my job.
But also, did you do the

1531
00:59:57,840 --> 00:59:58,560
lunchtime prayer?
Yeah.

1532
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:00,040
Did you do the lunchtime prayer
though?

1533
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:02,920
And did you go to Mass?
Okay, which one do you believe?

1534
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,840
Do you believe that schools
should be objective and and

1535
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:07,920
removed from all other things
and teachers should just be

1536
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:11,040
teaching a curriculum that we've
all agreed on and that's their

1537
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:12,880
only role?
Or do you just actually want

1538
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:15,080
schools to do the precisely the
thing that you believe in?

1539
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:17,520
Because they're very, very
different things.

1540
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:19,560
You've ever got one opinion or
you're honest?

1541
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,280
It's irrelevant, really.
Yeah, absolutely.

1542
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:23,800
I completely agree.
Those people really do just

1543
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:26,200
cherry pick what they want the
teacher to personally believe.

1544
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:27,320
Yeah.
And put on to their.

1545
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,640
Kids, my teacher was teaching
all about LGBT at school.

1546
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:32,400
Yeah yeah, good.
Okay, great.

1547
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:34,760
They should be fired.
Yeah, brilliant.

1548
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:36,240
Okay, fantastic.
Catholic school as well.

1549
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:37,560
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.

1550
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:39,480
The body of Christ.
Yeah, yeah.

1551
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:42,000
They can only be indoctrinated
into this way, not that way.

1552
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:44,840
And if we were to think about
some of their views on LGBTQ

1553
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:47,520
from the Catholic faith, let's
just leave that there, shall we?

1554
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:49,560
Maybe one of the reasons why we
think it might not be the

1555
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,120
greatest thing.
Look, people can believe what

1556
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,400
they want, but as soon as it's
in the public space.

1557
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:56,760
Come on.
Yeah.

1558
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:58,040
It's not objective anymore.
People.

1559
01:00:58,040 --> 01:00:59,600
People mask it as objectivity.
It's not.

1560
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:01,640
It's everyone's just got their
personal opinions and absolutely

1561
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:03,240
want to make it their own thing.
It shouldn't be.

1562
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:04,480
It should be objective.
Absolutely.

1563
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:05,640
Right.
We'll finish there.

1564
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:06,240
Shall we?
Yeah.

1565
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:07,240
Do you think we'll get
cancelled?

1566
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:09,880
By the Pope.
Yeah mate, first thing he does

1567
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,200
he comes in on the balcony.
Hello, we have a new Pope.

1568
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:14,680
Teach thee repeat your cancelled
and.

1569
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:16,280
I can't work in cabinet schools.
Bye.