Ep 111: Breaking Down The Broken UK Education System & Why Teachers Might Strike Again!

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Hello everyone and welcome back
to another episode of Teach Seat

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Repeat.
My name is Dylan.

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And my name is Hayden and.
Again, the arms are out because

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I'm very excited about this
week.

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And there is a reason because as
very loyal listeners will know,

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I do all of the work for the
podcast.

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Every single thing you can think
of to do with the podcast is

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down to me, Dylan.
But this week, I genuinely have

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no idea.
Like, like truly the only thing

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I know is that you've managed to
bicep, bicep, intersect,

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intersect.
Intercept I think.

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We're ready for the Sats, aren't
we?

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An e-mail that got sent to us,
yes, Which I have mixed feelings

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on because I love the fact that
you're actually doing something

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for once.
It's great.

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But the other part of me is I've
got about 75 emails that I'm

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like, oh, I'll use them at some
point.

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And this one's just just jumped.
Yeah, yeah, of course of.

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Course it's clearly good if you
come up with a a reason to want

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to do it on an episode on this.
So what you've exposed is really

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is that you claim to do all the
work, but actually you left it

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unread.
I jump in and see an e-mail and

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do something about it straight
away.

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I think that's kind of what you
guys are probably getting from

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this.
Really.

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Right?
True, true.

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How's your week been anyway?
It's do you know what?

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I don't really want to talk
about it too much, not because.

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That sounds really negative.
I don't think it's any business

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actually.
None of your business are you

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treat.
You're talking to Love that,

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love that joke.
It's just, it's just like a

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couple of weeks before SATS,
isn't it?

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Everything.
It's just like you ask me about

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my week.
At any point in the week.

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What are we doing?
Oh, SAT stuff.

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SAT prep.
Yeah.

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Is it fun?
Not really.

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No, Not really.
Yeah.

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Are you doing just out of
interest, are you at the point

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now where you really aren't
doing much else other than maths

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and English?
Yeah, yeah.

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These these like the three weeks
before the sats are basically

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when we say look to the kids,
we're like, look, we're going to

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get preface sats in these three
weeks.

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We'll do a lot.
We won't not do these things.

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These other things that we'd
normally do in the week, we'll

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do them after the sats.
We're just going to get you

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ready in these three weeks.
So you're going to do less maths

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and English after, do you think?
Yeah.

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Yeah.
And we'll we'll catch up on the

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other like other subjects.
So they will get them in the.

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Case I mean we've.
Just moved it around.

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There's probably a, there's
probably middle ground to our my

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militant stance of don't change
anything ever because there is a

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test at the end of the day.
Yeah, it's, it's a tricky 1,

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isn't it?
I still don't like it.

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It doesn't sit perfectly well
with me.

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But I think it is a good middle
ground.

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But compared to schools that you
know what they do, they do this

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for like 2 months before the
time was from Christmas and then

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don't even like replace the
curriculum they didn't do

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afterwards.
They just, they just crack on as

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normal.
So, you know, it's an all right

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middle ground.
Yeah, I do know.

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I'm, I'm not even in year 6, I'm
in year 4 and I kind of feel the

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residual like prep feeling that
you do right now because

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especially 'cause we're a Junior
School where we're a Junior

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School and we have only from
year 3 upwards.

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We are a lot closer to year 6,
everyone.

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And I would say that I think in
a Junior School, I don't know if

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this is true.
It'd be interesting to hear from

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people who work in a primary
school, but I feel like it's a

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lot more focused on the journey
towards SATS because it is just

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a four year period.
So in year 4, even though

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obviously I'm not thinking about
SATS, I'm thinking about the end

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of the year, I'm thinking about
coverage, I'm thinking about

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them being tested because year
six are being tested at the

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minute.
And I'm thinking about that

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journey of, OK, look, this is
they've got two more years after

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me.
What can I prioritise that I

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think is vital They get early
and what can I maybe say to the

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next teacher?
Look, they're not as strong on

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this, but I know that you've got
next year to prep and then half

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of year 6 do I've got it in my
head.

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Basically, it's very interesting
that you have that opinion

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because I, I, I know a lot of
people over the years who've

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worked in year 6 or still work
in year 6 or SLT, whatever, who

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have a very strong opinion.
And I want to know what you

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think about this, that all
teachers in key Stage 2, so

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particularly at Junior School,
Junior School, like us, should

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spend at least one year of their
career when working at that

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school in year 6 specifically so
that they have a, a, a better

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understanding of like, or maybe
just they're a bit more aware of

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the end of key stage
expectations compared to,

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because there's a possibility
that you in year 4 never really

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think about that.
What you've just said there.

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There's a, there's a good
possibility.

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So what do you think about that
opinion of everyone should have

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experience in Year 6 so they can
they can draw on it when they're

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in different year groups?
I I think you can certainly have

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my outlook without having worked
in year 6.

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And because I am literally
someone who has not worked in

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year 6.
Yeah, yeah.

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So I've done, I did some, some
of my teacher training.

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I did like half a year in year 6
and it was the second-half of

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the year and it was during Sats.
Yeah.

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So I don't know, maybe that's
playing a little.

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Bit I don't know and obviously
me, yeah, we're very close and

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you aspire to be me and and
obviously I work in year 6.

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So that does that obviously
impacts your.

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Brain, I thought this was going
to be a really nice.

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I had to get it in but I.
I guess I'm also have my

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perspective kind of twisted by
the fact I'm mass lead.

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So I am thinking about these
outcomes and these numbers at

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the end.
And also I, I've done a lot of

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work with year six children in,
in like maybe even some groups

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in the past.
And I've done a lot of work

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outside of school breaking down
the maths papers and explaining

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things like that.
So, so I, I do have a very, I'd

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say a very more knowledge of the
key Stage 2 stats and the

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outcomes, etcetera, especially
for maths than the average

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teacher because of all of those
things.

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Now, I think it, it works both
ways here.

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And I think you need to be
really careful because if you

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have the outlook you're saying
in terms of you're in year 4,

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you should know the end of key
Stage 2 curriculum and the

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outcomes that we're aiming for
because of that journey, Two

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things can happen On the
positive side, you can really

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genuinely prioritise in a really
good way.

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You can understand that you're a
cog in a bigger machine.

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And I think spreading that load
across your staff is only a good

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thing.
Otherwise Year 6 can become

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incredibly pressurised from the
top down as if this is, these

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are Year 6 SAT's.
No, they're key stage 2 SAT's.

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So knowing you're a cog in that
wheel of a longer journey takes

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a little bit of pressure off
everyone, but you then really

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know your role I think.
And having that communication

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between year groups is really
strong.

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It's really helpful and I think
knowing those outcomes can let

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you make those professional
decisions.

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For example, if my class can't
do short division very well

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because they're not too sure on
the bus stop method, and they

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also aren't very good at
translating a shape on a grid

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without too much knowledge.
You, you know, you may well on

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the surface, I don't think many
teachers would, but you might on

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the surface if those two think,
oh gosh, I need to really fill

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both of those gaps.
When in reality, if you're

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thinking about what's going to
come up in the test eventually,

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but also just what's more
helpful for a child in their

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life.
I think overall you can make

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that decision and I can make
that decision.

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Year 4, we're going to spend a
lot more time on multiples

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remainders using short, short
division using the bus.

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Even if you have to sacrifice
another area of the curriculum

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that maybe doesn't get as much
coverage as precisely.

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Because because I think you have
to build in that communication

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then.
And what I would say is don't

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just bin it for the sake of it
and it's done forever, but just

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let the next year group leader
know.

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For example, you and I, as mass
deeds created a list of

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streamlined objectives for each
year group that can be passed on

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and highlighted within 15
minutes simply on what have you

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covered and the kids are secure
with in general.

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This is very much in general,
very vague, but it's just a bit

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of information for the teacher.
What have you covered and you

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you feel your class are quite
secure with and you can just

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continue the curriculum because
there's always a bit of recap

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built in.
What have you covered and you

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feel like your children need
more support on so a bit more

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input and what did you not
cover?

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And I think that's enough to
give your next teacher to the

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next year group to, for them to
look at and go right, OK, that's

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good to know.
So when I'm doing addition,

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they're solid.
We can really focus on the Year

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5 objectives.
If they just come from 4:00 when

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I'm doing division, I know
they've done this and they'll be

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familiar with it, but they
clearly need some extra

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practise.
So I'm going to make sure I

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build in some of that time in my
lesson.

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If they haven't covered anything
before at all, you need to then

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realise that when you come to
doing translation positions on

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the grid, they've not had any,
any input at all in a year 4

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level.
So just strip it back a bit.

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Yeah.
And I, and I think all of that

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built in means that knowing the
end of key stage 2 outcomes can

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help that become a really
streamlined, good positive

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process for your kids.
And very quickly the other end

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would be the opposite of that.
It would be you become obsessed

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with what in the SAT papers,
only 1% of questions ever have

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been this Roman numerals.
So I'm not even going to do

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Roman numerals ever.
Exactly.

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I'm not going to do it all
because every single year, oh,

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I'm doing that thing that people
said, I'm thinking of key stage,

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key stage 2 Sats.
We don't do Roman numerals, so

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we just forget it and then kids
never get it.

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So I think what the point here
is with communication and an aim

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and a goal and coherence between
your staff team, I think it is

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definitely a positive, but I
think it can drift into a

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negative if it's if it's
allowed.

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To yeah, for sure.
I think a lot where that

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ideology falls down because
obviously we believe in it

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because we've we were you were
just saying that at our school,

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it was post COVID actually that
kind of encouraged us to do it

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because the kids obviously
missed a lot of content, which

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is what made us make that
objective thing that we could

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pass up to the next teacher
really to say, which objective

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did you not even like get time
to teach?

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Because we had literally had
just less time in school.

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And I liked the whole ideology
of that because it was about

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this, OK, then we'll, you know,
we're a cog in this wider

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machine.
But where it where I find it's

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always fallen down is those end
of year tests for each year

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group.
I find that a teacher might know

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that they might be like, yeah,
objectively, it is better if I

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just don't do these three
objectives and I hammer more of

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this arithmetic stuff because
they just don't quite get it.

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And I don't want to send them up
to the next year group with a

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surface level knowledge of this
arithmetic, which is like the

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foundation to all mass and also
a surface level knowledge of

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this enough to get them a few
extra marks in our interview

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test.
Because I'm scared that our head

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teacher or SLT will look at my
end of year test and be like,

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why are none of your children
getting any marks in this

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objective, this shape objective?
What did you not teach it?

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I feel like people worry about
that legitimately, which stops

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them from then doing this lovely
idea of like just understanding

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that we're just one big journey.
I don't know what the solution

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00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:13,440
is.
I really don't other than being

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00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,800
mega liberal and like getting
rid of these tests or.

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00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:17,200
No, I think, I think it's
communication.

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Like I said, I think the
communication has to be from

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00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,800
every single person.
So everyone needs to be

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00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,400
involved, not just the teachers,
which it can be sometimes, not

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even just the subject lead,
which would be us in this case.

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It has to be the SRT, it has to
be who's in charge of

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00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:30,400
assessment.
For example.

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00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,120
I can think right now we follow
White Rose maths OK, in our

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school and White Rose Maths on
their long term planning have

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00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,000
moved negative numbers, which is
a year 4 objective.

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00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,040
They've moved it to Year 5.
The point being, pretty much

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what we've just said, they've
taken the look, it's a long four

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00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,800
year journey in key Stage 2.
You can pick up negative numbers

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00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:50,720
in Year 5 because you'd also do
it in Year 5.

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00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,320
So you can just introduce it in
Year 5 and do it from the start,

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00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,920
which allows maybe more time in
year 4 of us, more fractions,

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00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,560
etcetera, which is really
important to get before you move

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00:09:58,560 --> 00:10:00,240
on again when you go to Year 5
and 6.

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00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,520
And so, so that's something my
school has done and gone along

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00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:05,000
with and me and you have said,
yeah, do you know what?

251
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,800
We completely agree.
It aligns with what we've just

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00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,440
said.
However, our school also use

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pixel assessments.
So and again, really good,

254
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:15,560
really good assessments where
you can get a lot of excellent

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00:10:15,560 --> 00:10:18,600
data from other schools who use
pixel and see where you land and

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00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,000
what your gaps are and what the
national trends are etcetera.

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00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,040
So both of these things I can
completely understand and I

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00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,040
think it could be right to do
both of them.

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00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,760
I actually personally think that
the pixel assessments are better

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00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,200
than the White Rose assessments.
And I also, so I think that the

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00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,200
White Rose long term plans are
better than nearly every other

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00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,080
way of doing it.
So I think we've picked the best

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00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,200
of both worlds here.
However, where like you said, it

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00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,240
could very much fall down is in
a pixel test because in year 4

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00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,360
negative numbers is absolutely
on the curriculum.

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00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:46,800
There are always questions in
the year 4 assessment at the end

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00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,280
of the year, which is reading a
chart, maybe like a, a

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00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,520
thermometer that goes into
negative numbers.

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00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:54,000
And it might say, what's this
number?

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00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,000
And then it might ask you what's
the difference between 2

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00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,520
temperatures, right, which is
very much a year 4 objective and

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00:10:58,520 --> 00:10:59,920
fair to test year four children
on.

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00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:01,560
But in our school, well, we
haven't done that yet.

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00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:03,040
Yeah.
And and again, because we're

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00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,720
seeing it as a wider journey
through key Stage 2.

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00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,400
And that's basically what you're
saying in that in that like that

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00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,520
situation there you're saying
SLT might look at that and say?

278
00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:14,040
Oh, that's a huge problem.
Yeah.

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00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,080
And you're saying with
communication, if the

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00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:17,920
communication was there all
along, then it didn't need to be

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00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,440
a problem at all because SLT are
aware, as just as aware as the

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00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,080
teachers.
This is our school plan.

283
00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,120
We know this is going to happen,
so we're going to ignore that

284
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,080
question.
It doesn't matter to us because

285
00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:27,760
we have a better plan in place.
Exactly.

286
00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,240
And I think that it doesn't even
necessarily matter that SLT

287
00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,720
might not know that straight
away in the in the in the

288
00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,000
moment, but I think what would
matter if you have the right

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00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,760
culture and understanding that's
been built up from the start and

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00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,520
you're all on the same page in a
people progress meeting.

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00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,000
When you say, look, there's a
reason only 20% of the cohort

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00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,480
got this right, compared to a
national average of 70%.

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00:11:47,680 --> 00:11:50,600
It's because we haven't done it
because you, as you know, we've

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00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,720
maybe jigged things around a
bit, follow different schemes

295
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:54,040
and we'll do it on a long
journey.

296
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,000
Then if SLT go, that makes
sense, no problem.

297
00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,960
That's what a good system would
look like.

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00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,760
And I, I think most of the
problems we're talking about

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00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,240
here can be avoided by building
that culture and understanding

300
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:07,560
across the board in the 1st
place.

301
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,120
You're not then chasing your
tail and justifying yourself and

302
00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,920
feeling like you're in the wrong
because everyone's on the same

303
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:14,360
page.
Trusting that long term process

304
00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,800
isn't it as well not just
obsession, which is definitely a

305
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,600
thing, a problem obsession with
the short term data and and and

306
00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,160
I'm even I'm calling short term
one year in this case where

307
00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,920
like, yeah, I'm really talking
long, long term versus just one

308
00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,480
year.
That obsession with I must track

309
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,760
everything in one year is
definitely a problem.

310
00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:32,200
More pet.
Keep this in mind because

311
00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,520
actually what it it reminds me
of one of the the elements of

312
00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:36,600
this e-mail we received.
So this.

313
00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:37,960
So, yeah, this is a long e-mail,
right?

314
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:39,560
Yeah.
Should we play Jingle and then

315
00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:40,480
get into it?
Yeah, let's do it.

316
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,920
All right, cool. 1st, I want to
say a huge thank you to

317
00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:46,600
absolutely everyone who gets in
touch with us.

318
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,320
I get loads of messages on
Instagram, loads on comments on

319
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:50,520
TikTok and Reels and things like
that.

320
00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:52,680
And we do get quite a lot of
emails and we really, really

321
00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:55,280
appreciate it.
Very sorry to everyone who sent

322
00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,120
an e-mail.
And maybe I've said, yeah, I'll

323
00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:58,600
do that in the future because
Hayden's beat me to it.

324
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,080
So we may come back to emails
again in the future and future

325
00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:04,320
episodes.
But I'm actually really looking

326
00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,000
forward to this because I can't
stress this enough.

327
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:08,720
This has happened rarely on the
podcast.

328
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:09,840
I really don't know what's
coming.

329
00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,560
So I was in bed the other
morning, this e-mail popped up

330
00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:14,720
and I thought, oh, I'm going to
be the first one to read this

331
00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:16,760
because I literally saw it at
the time was on my phone.

332
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:18,680
And I opened it.
And my first thought was,

333
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,640
Christ, that's a long e-mail
because I scrolled through it.

334
00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,640
And the first thing he says is,
First off, apologies for the

335
00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,360
long e-mail.
So this is an anonymous e-mail,

336
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,400
just to make that really clear,
because the first thing he said

337
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,880
after that was a small ask up
front is that you don't use my

338
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:31,640
name attached to the e-mail.
I'd like to keep it anonymous.

339
00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,880
That's always a a juicy.
I know as soon as I read that I

340
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,800
was then geared up to read the
rest.

341
00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,400
So I'm just going to say,
firstly, thank you so much to

342
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,920
this person for writing.
And if you're listening because

343
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,680
it's going to spark a lot of lot
of conversations.

344
00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:46,280
So in this e-mail, what I'm
going to do, Dylan, is, I mean,

345
00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,120
he's written it beautifully
because every single paragraph

346
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:50,760
here is basically a discussion
point.

347
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,480
OK, so I'm going to read to you
a paragraph from this e-mail and

348
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:54,760
through this episode.
We're going to get through the

349
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:56,720
whole thing and we're going to
stop and discuss things as we

350
00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,640
go.
OK All right, so here is the

351
00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,240
first paragraph.
I want to start off by saying

352
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,040
thank you for the work you're
doing with Teach the Repeat.

353
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,800
I've been listening as an
American primary teacher now

354
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:08,720
working here in the UK.
It's a really important contest

355
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:10,840
now in the UK.
Now in the UK.

356
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,280
So he's spent most of his career
in America primary school and

357
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:14,720
now works in the UK.
OK, bro.

358
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:16,240
So I was like, OK, this is going
to be fun.

359
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,920
Like comparisons and I really
appreciate the honesty, humour

360
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:20,520
and care you both bring to the
conversations.

361
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,480
Thank you.
If it was rare to hear such

362
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:23,800
straight talking, that's what we
try.

363
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,520
And so I was like, yes, and the
actual conditions of the job,

364
00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,960
and I found myself nodding and
groaning along with so many of

365
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,520
the things you've raised.
So I'm not reaching out from any

366
00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,680
sense of the grass is greener.
But out of genuine curiosity and

367
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,120
respect to your perspectives,
I've been thinking a lot about

368
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,880
the systemic differences and
some of the surprising overlaps

369
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,280
between the US and the UK
education systems.

370
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,840
And I'd love to hear your
thoughts on a few things that

371
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:46,840
keep coming up for me as I
listen to your episodes.

372
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,280
So here we go.
OK bro, so I love how that first

373
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:50,720
one, the first point is nice one
boys.

374
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,800
I was going to.
Skip it.

375
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,120
And I thought, no, it's in.
Context, it's really, really

376
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:56,480
important.
And this is, this is something

377
00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,360
we've talked about a lot and a
lot of people have got in touch

378
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,080
to say almost like a comparison
between I know.

379
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,560
So this is really interesting.
I'm so keen to do more of this

380
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,640
stuff as well, so I'm really
pleased to see his e-mail.

381
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,880
So the first one says one of the
biggest contrasts I felt is

382
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,960
around teacher agency and
autonomy in the States.

383
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,840
You're laughing already.
In the States, despite all of

384
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,800
the same accountability nonsense
and over testing, there's often

385
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,040
at least some space for teachers
to shape curriculum decisions,

386
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,200
push back against scripts or
carve out creative approaches.

387
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,240
Here in the UK, especially in
primary, I felt the weight of

388
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,560
much tighter top down control.
The schemes, the marking

389
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,920
policies, the pace, with very
little room to be a pedagogical

390
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,440
thinker rather than just a
deliverer of content.

391
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,520
Does that resonate with your
within your experience or is

392
00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,840
that just where I've landed?
I think that is nail on head

393
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:52,080
kind of statement in terms of I
remember joining a school when I

394
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,400
was when I was training to be a
teacher and this was a good ten

395
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,080
years ago now even.
So this is how embedded this

396
00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,520
culture is.
When I was training to become a

397
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,880
teacher, I joined this school
then I was looking for a job and

398
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:03,160
I ended up getting a job at that
school.

399
00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,520
And in the interim when I was
thinking about getting a job

400
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,160
there, etcetera.
And they were talking me through

401
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,000
how the school works and just
over that year, essentially, of

402
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:11,880
learning the insurance and outs
of the school.

403
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:17,240
I think I really benefited from
what he's describing in terms of

404
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,800
something really prescriptive
because I could pick it up and I

405
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,040
could go, OK, cool, I can do
this now we're doing use read,

406
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:23,720
write ink for English.
We're gonna do exactly this.

407
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,480
And then I always remember them
saying we allow teachers to be

408
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,880
autonomous.
But when you walk through

409
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,000
lessons, you should often see
the same things happening.

410
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,720
And I always thought that is the
most ridiculous sentence I've

411
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,440
ever, ever heard because what I
think we're awful with in this

412
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,360
country.
And again, I, I, I want to

413
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,240
stress that I think it worked
for me when learning because I

414
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:45,960
could just copy that.
That worked for my brain.

415
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,200
I could just copy.
But then when I become more

416
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,560
experienced, it becomes a
hindrance.

417
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,200
And actually, no, I want like
literally one of the teachers

418
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,720
standards is adaptation.
So where does that allow

419
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,040
adaptation to come in?
And I think he's absolutely

420
00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,440
right because I what we see a
lot, and especially in trusts

421
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,800
are no, no, no, the slides need
to be the same colour and we

422
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:05,440
must have the logo on all of the
planning.

423
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,480
And we couldn't possibly use the
scheme we've bought and that

424
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,880
long term plan because it
doesn't say our school's name at

425
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:12,640
the top.
How on earth can we have a good

426
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,760
coherent plan without the
school's name at the top?

427
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,119
So we all need to do this as
well.

428
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,079
I think it comes from a massive
worry, a lack of trust from the

429
00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:24,280
profession that people at the
top think that we must control

430
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,839
everything to the NTH degree.
And I would say even in the most

431
00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:30,960
liberal of schools.
And I'm thinking now schools

432
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,080
I've worked out more recently,
like even the school I'm in now,

433
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,080
which I think give me a lot of
freedom.

434
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,080
And I'm very grateful for the
trust they show.

435
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,240
When we actually strip it back
as to what planning looks like,

436
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,480
it is still quite prescriptive.
Yeah, there's still a lot of

437
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,920
structure and rules, right?
I get the impression that this

438
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:48,920
guy maybe, maybe in the USA,
he's not saying that it's all

439
00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,320
just like, do what you want.
He's just saying like, you're

440
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:52,760
kind of describing a scale here,
aren't you?

441
00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,360
And there's this level of
micromanagement where it's

442
00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:57,200
ridiculous.
And it is the things like your

443
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,440
fonts and the font sizes and the
colour of your thing and the

444
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,640
logo needs to be here.
And the your tables have to be

445
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:03,880
laid out this way and the
displays have to look like this

446
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:05,400
and they have to be triple back,
not double back.

447
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,080
You're getting pulled up because
your borders are not the right

448
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,120
board at curve.
It's that level when you're

449
00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:12,640
like, OK, this OK, there is a
line somewhere though, because

450
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,320
if we went too far the other
way, it would be chaos.

451
00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:15,840
Sure.
So you need some structure.

452
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:17,640
I get that.
I imagine the school you worked

453
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:19,680
in, the first one, you were
saying about how we allow

454
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,840
autonomy here, but you know, and
then basically said we put no

455
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:24,800
autonomy.
I think autonomy for them was

456
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,280
that it's a different person.
Teaching their idea on this

457
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,400
scale was probably a lot lower
down than you, that they were

458
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,080
like this far, one step away
from from the worst version of

459
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:34,000
this.
And they're like, yeah, this is

460
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,360
autonomy to us.
I didn't.

461
00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:36,920
I'm trying to think more of the
scale analogy.

462
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,840
I'd like you to dive in with me
here and maybe clarify my raw

463
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:41,840
thoughts because I've not really
thought about this, but I'm

464
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,320
thinking of the scale now in
terms of autonomy for a teacher.

465
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,520
And it feels like either end of
the scale, it's OK to have less

466
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,120
autonomy, but the big chunk in
the middle needs to be teacher

467
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:53,280
LED.
And here's what I mean by this

468
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,720
when I'm saying like on let's
say on the minimal scale, let's

469
00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,480
say there's no autonomy in the
pens the kids use or the fact

470
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,720
you use smart notebook or that,
you know, with all those small

471
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,720
low level decisions that don't
really impact your workload at

472
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,640
all.
A very easy thing to implement

473
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,480
and you can then be consistent
between classes.

474
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,400
You know, I'm thinking if a
school wants a coherent

475
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,080
behaviour policy and it wants
you to follow that throughout

476
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:17,760
the school because then if
you're a teacher covering a

477
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,160
different class, maybe you can
get the attention of the

478
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,400
children quickly.
There's small things like that

479
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,960
where I don't think impact you
as a teacher hugely, but are

480
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:27,920
easy to implement and maybe
there's a reason for it.

481
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:31,680
And then on the other scale, on
the ultimate scale is I also

482
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,440
would think it's OK to say to as
a maths lead, we're using White

483
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:36,720
Rose maths.
OK.

484
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:38,240
So we are going to use White
Rose maths.

485
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,720
We have to do do it this way.
We're going to do some starters

486
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,600
that recap learning previously
and we're going to do some make

487
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,080
sure there's lots of partner
talk for example in the lesson,

488
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:51,200
those macro elements again, I'd
want to see that in all

489
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,520
classrooms.
I guess what I'm saying is the

490
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,760
80% in the middle pace.
Yeah, yeah.

491
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,720
Don't try and dictate pace to
teachers.

492
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,200
It's insane.
OK, Don't try and dictate it

493
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,080
very, very precisely.
For example, when we're given,

494
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,520
when we give our staff an
example of what a math lesson

495
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,360
might look like, it's an
example.

496
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,080
And we're very quick to say if
there's some days where you

497
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,440
think you need to spend another
20 minutes doing this thing, oh,

498
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,480
my goodness me.
Please don't think that because

499
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,600
we stood in the staff meeting
once and said starters are 20

500
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,000
minutes, that when 20 minutes
are up, you stop and you move

501
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,760
because you as a professional
need that movement and that

502
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,400
adaptation.
It seems mad to.

503
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,800
Me that we're living in a
situation where we're we're

504
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,000
professionals or we always
pretend that we call

505
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,320
professionals anyway, but
there's just none of that trust

506
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,400
embedded in the job.
Yeah, to deviate, this is kind

507
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,320
of where I'm going.
I'm finding this really, really,

508
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,160
really hard to like put a line
on or put a mark on.

509
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,120
I've been talking about this
because I, I, just, every time

510
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:45,960
you speak, I'm like, oh, I think
this and actually, no, maybe

511
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,760
not.
And I think what I'm coming down

512
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,440
to is this is that idea of
deviation.

513
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,600
It's that I don't actually mind
if a school is a bit more

514
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,240
rigorous than another school in
its pedagogical approaches.

515
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,520
This school has, has, does, I
don't know, the head.

516
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,680
The head loves research.
And they really like to do a bit

517
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:00,320
few more things like their
behaviour policy is more in

518
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:01,680
depth.
The marketing policy is a bit

519
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,280
more in depth.
But it's that, it's, that, it's

520
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,400
that trust and ability to
deviate and adapt from that that

521
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,880
I think schools lack.
And I, I kind of get the opinion

522
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,520
that this guy is saying that
like he said, they have a bit

523
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,800
more teachers, have more space
to shape curriculum decisions.

524
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,360
I'm like, do you know what?
There's a lot of schools in this

525
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:20,040
country where they just don't,
you don't have any space at all.

526
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:22,800
Whereas I know that in the past
from speaking to older teachers

527
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,280
that that worked in the UK, like
20 years ago, they said there

528
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,080
was a way more wiggle room to it
was more like the, the policy

529
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,680
in, in the school was OK, we
need, I want you to teach

530
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,800
history for this term and I want
it to be on the Mayans.

531
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,400
Good luck.
Rather than I want to be on the

532
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:36,800
Mayans and lesson 1 needs to do
this.

533
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,400
Lesson 2 needs to have this
element to it.

534
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,240
Lesson 3 needs to have a recap
and needs to have a test.

535
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:41,320
I want to, I want to see that
test.

536
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:42,560
I want to see the answers.
They don't get the right

537
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:43,960
assessment.
Your assembly on the next day

538
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,040
has to be on.
And it's like, OK, can we calm

539
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,520
down and just give the teacher a
little bit of trust?

540
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,760
Here's a scheme of work.
I want to do the Mayans but you

541
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,280
know, make it fun.
They keep saying Mayans weirdly.

542
00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:53,840
You're right, it's Mayans.
I know what's wrong with.

543
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:55,160
Me.
Isn't it Maya as well?

544
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:56,080
Not Mayans.
Mayans.

545
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:57,520
Yeah.
Isn't there the whole thing that

546
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:58,120
it's Maya?
Maya as well?

547
00:21:58,120 --> 00:21:58,680
Not it's Maya.
Mayans.

548
00:21:58,680 --> 00:21:59,600
Maya.
Isn't there the whole thing that

549
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:00,800
it's Maya?
Isn't there the whole thing that

550
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:02,000
it's Maya is Maya?
The whole thing that it's Maya

551
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:02,800
and Maya.
And Maya and is it's.

552
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:03,400
I don't know.
You tell me.

553
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,040
You have to talk Myer as much as
you want.

554
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:07,040
We need, we need top down
macromanagement,

555
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:08,280
micromanagement.
So these.

556
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:09,880
Guys don't get guys, how do you
say bye?

557
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,000
Because I see it all the time.
No, actually I don't know.

558
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:15,520
Yeah, I think I think you're
making a good point.

559
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:20,160
I think there is room for top
down implementation of things.

560
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,080
But as a professional, if you're
going to moan at me because I

561
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,640
decided to make my worksheet
look slightly different one week

562
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,680
or decide we didn't need a
worksheet one week or decide

563
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,280
that my it doesn't matter.
My slides don't have the

564
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,840
specific font.
Get in the bin and leave me

565
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,680
alone because I'm a professional
and I think it's that trust,

566
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,160
isn't it?
This is the final point maybe on

567
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,520
this.
It's that trust from your

568
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,240
management that you, as a
professional, would not choose

569
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,840
to deviate from something if you
hadn't already thought through

570
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:46,040
the impact it was going to have
in your.

571
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,640
Class that is it what you just
said there is kind of what I was

572
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,240
trying to say.
So I'm going to just agree with

573
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:51,800
that and I'm going to carry on
reading this e-mail.

574
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,240
That's a really good point.
So he the next paragraph says

575
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,600
this ties in to what feels like
a deeper structural issue around

576
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,200
the qualification hiring and the
devaluation of teacher

577
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,040
expertise.
So one of the most jarring

578
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,840
things I encountered after
moving here was how easily

579
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,440
schools, particularly academies
and free schools, saying this to

580
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,000
Pat Dillon on the back here can
hire unqualified teachers or

581
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,160
lean on agency staff to to paper
over staffing gaps instead of

582
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,440
asking what would make
qualified, experienced teachers

583
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,840
want to stay.
The system seems designed to

584
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,960
sidestep the question entirely,
patching the holes with cheaper,

585
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,520
precarious labour rather than
offering real support,

586
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,560
incentives or pay for trained
teachers to remain in the

587
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,400
profession.
So it's all about expertise

588
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:35,720
here.
What?

589
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:36,640
What do you want?
Your thoughts?

590
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,200
I think I think that's
brilliantly put.

591
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:40,480
I think that's exactly what
we're saying.

592
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,160
And I'm always want to preface
this.

593
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:43,640
I want to preface this
discussion right now.

594
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,680
Whenever we talk about this, I'm
not trying to alienate or say

595
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,120
that someone who isn't qualified
is automatically going to be an

596
00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:51,600
awful teacher or a bad at their
job.

597
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,680
No, not what I'm saying.
But what I am saying is that we

598
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,080
do accept as a society that
there are certain roles and jobs

599
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,720
where a qualification means that
you're at a certain level and

600
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,000
standard of delivery.
Yeah.

601
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:06,200
So if you are a qualified
teacher, it should be a rigorous

602
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,800
enough, a bit piece of evidence
to say that you are at that

603
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,400
level, that you should have some
autonomy, that you should be

604
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,040
able to understand how children
learn through pedagogical ways

605
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,760
or just from, you know, the
understanding the importance of

606
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,200
wider society and children in
poorer situations.

607
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,920
I remember in my PGC learning
about the impact of wealth

608
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,200
inequality on outcomes, and I
remember learning about the

609
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,760
importance of safeguarding and
children in care and all of

610
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,360
those things that I wouldn't
have had if I wasn't qualified

611
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,800
that.
Absolutely informed my practise

612
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,720
and made me a best teacher.
So I think I completely agree.

613
00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:43,720
The thing I guess that comes out
of this more than anything is

614
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:48,160
twofold #1 children getting
inconsistent teaching because it

615
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,320
is just inconsistent in in
regards of the level of the

616
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,960
people in front of you.
And we see a lot in secondary

617
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,720
school where again, PE teachers
are teaching maths.

618
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,280
OK, could be a fantastic guy,
I've got nothing against them.

619
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,160
But APE teacher should not be
teaching maths.

620
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,560
A qualified primary school
teacher, OK, we can't pretend,

621
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,800
would be on the same level as
someone who's unqualified being

622
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,240
paid a third of the rank.
So these unqualified teachers

623
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,120
and agency staff are being taken
advantage of because they're

624
00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:18,480
being paid minimal, because they
can justify it for saying you're

625
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:19,520
not qualified.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

626
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,960
But then somehow, in the same
breath as saying I can justify

627
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,200
paying you less because you're
not qualified, they're still

628
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,040
gaslighting parents into
thinking the children are

629
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:28,440
getting the same quality of
education.

630
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,200
Yeah, and gaslighting the
teachers into thinking they can

631
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:31,640
be scrutinised at the exact same
level.

632
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,000
Right.
So, so so it's.

633
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:35,240
It doesn't add up.
If you're going to 10, that's

634
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,320
the same quality of education.
You should be paying the same

635
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:37,960
amount of money.
Yeah.

636
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:39,880
You're paying less because, you
know, it's not.

637
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,680
Yeah, because it's just the.
It's just a factor at the end of

638
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:42,760
the.
Day on average, everything,

639
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,800
everything, everything you're
saying there, I know you said it

640
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:45,640
already.
I'm gonna say.

641
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,440
Again, I think I do for someone
listen to that.

642
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,360
But I think, oh, don't you, I'm
unqualified.

643
00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:50,960
Do you think I'm bad?
Absolutely not.

644
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,240
No.
But are we OK?

645
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,360
So are you suggesting to me that
a qualified teacher status is

646
00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:56,800
completely irrelevant and
pointless?

647
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:57,760
Of course of.
Course it isn't.

648
00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,200
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No really good point.

649
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,240
Next bit listen.
I feel like he's he's listened

650
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:03,800
to our podcast and then written
bits for me and you.

651
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,000
This bit feels like for me, the
agency model itself feels

652
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,680
structurally exploitative.
Schools pay high fees for these

653
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,040
companies while the teachers
doing the work take take home

654
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,360
significantly less often.
Without pensions, sick pay, CBD

655
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:19,080
or any long term stability.
It's hard not to feel like the

656
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,720
system has normalised
casualisation as a solution to

657
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,280
its own failure to invest.
See what I mean?

658
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,160
So when?
So just to remind everyone,

659
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,280
Dylan's not seen his e-mail, but
I did message him after.

660
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,160
It's been like we've had a, an
unbelievably well worded emails

661
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,200
sent in and I have to read it to
you on the podcast because it's

662
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,240
so good.
But just, I'm going to jump in

663
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,320
really quick because the agency
model thing, I've said this to

664
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:38,560
you before.
I think we've even mentioned it

665
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:39,920
on the podcast, right?
We've talked about it.

666
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,120
I, I think it's disgusting.
I think it's absolutely, I'm

667
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:44,760
agreeing with this person.
It is disgusting.

668
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,680
It's unbelievably exploitative.
Agency staff like like coming

669
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,200
into work in schools for a day.
Can you explain how the model

670
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,720
works currently then?
So, so, so, so it because it's

671
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,880
expensive for schools, right?
But but agency staff and supply

672
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,600
teachers will say that it's not
well paid.

673
00:26:58,600 --> 00:26:59,520
So what?
What's going on?

674
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,920
So schools, so if you need a
supply teacher in for whatever

675
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,920
reason, the schools, there's
generally, there's a bunch of

676
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,880
companies around the country
that offer agencies, they offer

677
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,120
supply teachers.
They have teachers on their

678
00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:10,280
books ready to go.
You need supply, you call them

679
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,000
up, you book them in.
It costs something like 200 to

680
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,880
250 lbs around there, OK, for a
day, for a day.

681
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,920
And that's what they pay the
agency, the agency sort it all

682
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:19,480
out, done.
The teachers walk home with

683
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,160
about half of that, right.
So the agency are taking about

684
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:23,920
half of that, you know, 40 to
50%.

685
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:25,080
They're creaming off.
Yeah.

686
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,640
For the for the service.
Well, isn't that to save the

687
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,120
school the bother of having to
ring 7 different people and go

688
00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:34,160
through and yeah, So what would
you say then would be a fair

689
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,880
percentage?
Like 10, yeah, not 50.

690
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,240
Yeah, like 10%.
Like, I can't fathom the idea

691
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,240
that in 2025 there are not,
there's not one.

692
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,680
Maybe just like a centralised
supply agency for, you know, a

693
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,600
public service, a public where
we have schools everywhere

694
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,840
guaranteed all the time.
What are the government doing

695
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,320
not capitalising over this
guaranteed like job anyway?

696
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,280
We've got these private agencies
that do this and I just, I can't

697
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,200
fathom the idea that no one's
come along and thought of a

698
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,720
Better Business model.
Well, to not cream off 50%,

699
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:02,240
yeah.
Exactly.

700
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,720
I'm going to, I'm going to
expand on this right now because

701
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,400
you and I've spoken about this
before, because again, as you'll

702
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,520
know, listeners to this podcast,
Hayden and I have skirted with

703
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,040
the idea of how long we're going
to stay in this profession.

704
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,000
And part of that discussion is
always what would we do next?

705
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,160
Because we have a family to
support and mortgages to pay.

706
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,680
So, you know, we're going to
have to replace our income

707
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:22,840
somehow.
And I remember something you

708
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,640
were saying was, is there
something we can do with supply?

709
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,320
And it started off with the
conversation of could we just do

710
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,040
supply?
And I'm not against doing supply

711
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:31,560
whatsoever.
I think it'd be a nice way to,

712
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,240
if you did quit, keep your foot
in the door.

713
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,840
However, it does become
something that you think what's

714
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,440
the point?
It's an insult, right?

715
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:46,000
Because it if someone offered me
110 lbs to do a 7 hour day as a

716
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,520
qualified teacher, I would
honestly feel feel insulted.

717
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,000
I don't feel insulted very much,
yeah.

718
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,160
Ten years in, yeah, like
extremely experienced, qualified

719
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,640
teacher during a full teachers
day.

720
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,760
Knowing that a supply agency is
getting the same amount.

721
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,120
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just replacing me.

722
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,280
And something I want to talk
about here, Hayden, very

723
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,520
quickly, is if someone's
thinking about doing supply, you

724
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,640
may well have heard this before
where people say, Oh yeah, make

725
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,000
sure you get in the foot in the
door in a few schools because

726
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:12,360
then the schools can call you
directly.

727
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,200
Because from the school's point
of view, they're spending, let's

728
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,040
say, 240 lbs on this cover.
The school don't care what

729
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,720
happens with that 240 lbs.
They just want the cover.

730
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,720
So if you can bypass, bypass,
bypass, bypass American, if you

731
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,040
can bypass, bypass that and get
straight into the school and you

732
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,760
know, the head can call you and
you can be quite responsive and

733
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,000
available for them, then do that
because you can almost double

734
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:37,560
how much money you made.
Exactly, exactly.

735
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,680
It's, it's insane.
I, I completely agree with him.

736
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,960
And I think I think he's
touching on a wider point there,

737
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,480
which is it is just another way
that we are completely

738
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,480
normalising being paid low
amounts of money.

739
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,080
I think what's happening here
the last few points.

740
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,960
OK, I'm going to make a wider
point here, made sure you could

741
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,320
tell me what you think is that
what is happening is a slow

742
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:05,520
erosion of qualified teacher
status in a way where the big

743
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,400
dogs at the top think if we can
get away with this, it's going

744
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,440
to it's going to be the way to
save money.

745
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,880
Because if we can pretend that
for some reason we don't need

746
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,080
that anymore and somehow still
gas like people into thinking

747
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,880
that the level of education is
the same whilst we can save 40%

748
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,400
to 50% of the money, aren't we
laughing?

749
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,200
And I think that's disgusting.
I I couldn't agree more.

750
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,520
I've actually been waiting to
say a similar point myself

751
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,160
because I have noticed something
just personally, and, and I'm

752
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,640
going to really oversimplify
what I've seen here, so forgive

753
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,720
me a little bit, but I have
noticed that the bar to become a

754
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,720
teacher has has dropped over the
last 10 years in terms of how

755
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,960
difficult, how qualified you
have to be, the tests, the, the,

756
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,560
the rigour you have to go
through to become a teacher at

757
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:50,800
the bar has really, really
dropped.

758
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,960
And it's kind of like anyone
could be a teacher now.

759
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,040
And I know that sounds, that
sounds really up myself, doesn't

760
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:56,920
it?
Like anyone could be a teacher,

761
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,520
Like, Oh no, you can't be on my
level.

762
00:30:58,640 --> 00:30:59,840
But like we're, you know, we
can't.

763
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:01,680
We cannot.
But you, you couldn't be an

764
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:02,760
engineer.
Exactly.

765
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,360
You're not going to take
offence, are you, when someone

766
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:05,480
says, yeah, you couldn't be an
engineer?

767
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:06,720
No, you're right, I couldn't.
Yeah, and that's.

768
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,080
Fine, We've really, really
oversimplified this idea to the

769
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:10,840
point where the public are just
like, yeah, teaching is a joke.

770
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:12,080
Yes, primary school teacher is a
joke.

771
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:13,440
Anyone could do, anyone could do
that job.

772
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:14,640
That is what people believe now,
completely.

773
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,480
Anyone could do that job.
And they've kind of got the bar

774
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,680
where it's like, yeah, anyone
can now because we are desperate

775
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,480
for teachers, because what we're
not going to do as a government,

776
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,640
we're not going to increase, not
gonna do what this guy said,

777
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,400
which is increase the pay,
increase the incentives to keep

778
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,360
really, like actual quality
teachers.

779
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,040
Yeah, we'll let them quit
because they don't care.

780
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,160
And then we'll just open the
door to basically anyone.

781
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:32,880
Yeah.
And.

782
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:33,760
And someone will do.
It.

783
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,160
Yeah.
And someone will be exploited,

784
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,320
yeah.
And there'll be some TA who's

785
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,720
probably a mum of children who
are in school who've got their

786
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,240
TA job because it suits them and
they can be a really good TA and

787
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:43,880
be there during school hours and
go home.

788
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,160
No, we can just exploit them,
make them do.

789
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:46,680
Teaching.
Yeah.

790
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,000
Yeah.
What on earth They should not be

791
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,720
doing teaching.
And it is not because I'm saying

792
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,600
they're awful people who can't
be teachers ever.

793
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,840
What I'm saying is if you want
them to do teaching, get them on

794
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,640
a course, get them qualified and
pay them to do it.

795
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,160
Don't pretend that you can just
mug them off completely.

796
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,560
Pay them nothing.
And and I've seen schools, I've

797
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,440
seen schools do this, OK?
And please, please message me if

798
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,760
you've heard of schools doing
this too, because I can't, it

799
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,320
doesn't sit right with me.
Where schools, let's say a

800
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,160
teacher has left halfway through
the year for whatever reason,

801
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,320
things have moved around, maybe
maternity leave even, which is a

802
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,440
more common occurrence, but or
whatever's happened and someone

803
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,160
needs to replace that teacher in
school.

804
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,080
And the school instead of hiring
someone will maybe say to a HLTA

805
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,400
or a teaching assistant, can you
take this group, please?

806
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,280
Can you take this group just for
English in the morning?

807
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,640
Just for English in the morning.
It's a small group.

808
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,000
So that's why isn't it to be a
marking.

809
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,840
That's OK.
Yeah.

810
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,000
Can you crack on with that?
And they won't inform the

811
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,720
parents of what's going on
because it's, it's, it's more of

812
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:43,840
a yeah.
What, what would you say?

813
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:44,760
What?
Kind of time period, are we

814
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,960
talking here as well?
For the rest of the, for the

815
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:48,680
rest of the, I'm talking like
for like 2-2, three times,

816
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:50,280
right.
So they'll say, can you just do

817
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,840
this as a stopgap because it's
cheaper for us and you can just

818
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:55,640
do the lesson, Can't you can
just teach them English, can't

819
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,520
you?
Without telling the parents that

820
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,520
we've gone from a qualified
teacher having your having your

821
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,680
child to now you've got a
teaching assistant.

822
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,040
And I think, again, another card
that's played is that card of.

823
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:08,240
Don't you think that's all
right?

824
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,080
What are you saying about our
teaching assistants?

825
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:11,160
Yeah, I know.
What?

826
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,120
What do you mean it's bad?
Look, like we've established

827
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,040
already, going from a qualified
person doing a job to an

828
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,160
unqualified person doing a job,
no matter how lovely the people

829
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,080
are, is clearly, clearly a way
to save money.

830
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,400
And if it doesn't lower
standards, then the whole

831
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,120
system's a joke and we're
pretending in the 1st.

832
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,280
Place, Yeah, yeah, really good
point.

833
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,400
Yeah, Mad.
I'm going to go to the next

834
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,040
paragraph.
I'm glad you're into this.

835
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,800
We're about halfway through.
It's great.

836
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,000
It's such a good e-mail.
And then and then you went on to

837
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,280
say, OK, but what really stands
out to me is how this structure

838
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,600
reflects A deeper deprioritation
prioritisation.

839
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:49,040
There you go.
It's.

840
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,400
Really cool because all you have
to do is read.

841
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,360
I know it's hard to read.
Listen, it's because it's

842
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,240
Americanized.
It's got AZ, not an S, so you

843
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:55,480
know it.
It's threw me off guard through

844
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,680
me of God.
A deep prioritisation.

845
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,440
We did it again.
You could have got pedagogy.

846
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,600
I'm not doing it again.
A pedagogy as a field of

847
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,440
knowledge AD what?
But do you?

848
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:05,760
Sorry.
I've got a said of that.

849
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,760
I can't a less of a less of less
important.

850
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,480
Pedagogy of a as a field of
knowledge, what we do it back

851
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:13,960
home.
Even with a broken system,

852
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,840
there's still a shared
expectation that teachers,

853
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,480
especially in special education,
will have some working knowledge

854
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,800
of learning science, which I
guess we just call pedagogy.

855
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,280
Things like universal design for
learning, learned helplessness,

856
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,920
executive functioning, trauma
informed practise, RTI, proximal

857
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:29,480
zones of development,
scaffolding.

858
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:31,880
These are just part of the
professional language of the

859
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,320
job.
And I read the next paragraph

860
00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:35,040
because it kind of goes with it
here here.

861
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,600
I've been surprised at how often
these ideas feel absent from the

862
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,480
conversation.
I've worked under head teachers

863
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,400
who aren't familiar with those
frameworks at all.

864
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,760
Instead, the labour that seems
to get recognised with AZ is how

865
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,520
many comments you've marked
right?

866
00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:51,199
How many hours you've stayed
late, how much evidence you've

867
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:53,000
produced for leadership or
Ofsted.

868
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,360
The intellectual craft of
teaching seems to take a back

869
00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:01,840
seat to compliance metrics.
This once more, I wrote this

870
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:03,760
e-mail.
I'm not assuming them.

871
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,520
No, it's completely correct.
And again, this links in so

872
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:09,840
beautifully what we've already
said.

873
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,960
Okay.
And here's where the shift of

874
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,400
focus has to turn from what
we've talked about so far in

875
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,600
terms of the government and
people in charge of academies

876
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,600
etcetera who are trying to penny
pinch and making bad decisions

877
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,320
in that respect that are that
are lowering the standards of of

878
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,880
the whole profession.
We have to shift the focus now

879
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,200
to teachers and leaders
themselves in school because if

880
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:35,840
if we are going to maintain this
level of we're a profession and

881
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,840
we should be paid to do so.
I absolutely agree with him that

882
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,480
there are certain levels then of
what we should be putting in

883
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,120
place and talking about that
demonstrate why it's useful to

884
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:47,400
have that qualification in the
first place.

885
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:48,760
Yeah.
What separates you as a

886
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,640
professional then, from someone
unqualified?

887
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,040
Exactly.
So this is where the point

888
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,200
being, I can see why someone
unqualified might think I'm just

889
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:56,600
doing what he I'm just doing
what they're doing.

890
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,120
If, if it's not taken into
account that we're crafting

891
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,240
curriculum, we're thinking about
these kind of pedagogical

892
00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:03,240
sciences.
I think that's really important

893
00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:06,160
because what I think is hit the
nail on the head that the

894
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,440
prioritisation in school of what
you want your teachers to be

895
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,080
seen as doing is being busy
bodies.

896
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,000
OK.
And and that is absolutely

897
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,080
right.
Of how many books you marked,

898
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:14,360
have you done a comment for
this?

899
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,680
Have you, have you, have you
stayed until 5:00 PM doing this

900
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,360
display?
We are, we have rightfully said

901
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,760
over and over again, that is not
the mark of a good teacher.

902
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,400
But you know what do you know,
what is the mark of a good

903
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,120
teacher?
Someone who gets the kids

904
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,760
learning, someone who builds
relationships with the kids.

905
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,480
And then we've talked about that
importance and being a good

906
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,320
teacher in terms of this being a
safe space.

907
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,920
But you know why that's so
important is because then I can

908
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,320
apply my professional knowledge
to allowing them to do the best

909
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,880
they can do.
So I completely agree that I do

910
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,320
think that is something that has
slid off massively.

911
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:47,880
And even in my short career, I
feel like I hear less and less

912
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,400
of it in terms of the language,
in pedagogical ways.

913
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,160
And I see a lot of people saying
pedagogy, it's fine.

914
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,040
I think a lot of teachers do it
without knowing what they're

915
00:36:59,040 --> 00:36:59,960
doing.
OK.

916
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,120
But I completely agree that if
we're gonna hold ourselves up on

917
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,120
that pedestal of a profession,
this is the kind of stuff we

918
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,560
have to make sure it's clear to
people that we know.

919
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:09,960
Yeah.
And that we're implementing

920
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:11,320
every single week when we do our
planning.

921
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,720
I'm not gonna walk around with
like a with Cubs badges on.

922
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,000
I mean like when you only little
stitch, you stitch it onto your

923
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,920
thing of like it's about blooms.
I've got a massive blooms

924
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,800
taxonomy triangle on me.
Can't you see your fat?

925
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:23,400
I've got a triangle on my back.
Oh, no, it's not.

926
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,120
You can't see it.
And we don't need to do that.

927
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:27,800
Like we don't need to move
towards, like you have to now

928
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,520
prove everything, all the
pedagogical knowledge you know

929
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,000
and constantly do a little.
And say to the kids, you're in

930
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,160
the zone of proximal
development.

931
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,160
Yeah, OK, who cares?
Yeah, we know where you are

932
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,160
because we're doing it.
Yeah, from that meta

933
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:41,680
perspective, we should be able
to to distinguish between a

934
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,960
professional teacher who has
been trained in the art of like,

935
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,280
I think you describe it as like
an art and that's like it is,

936
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,040
right, the art of teaching
versus someone who isn't trained

937
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:51,800
because you can copy.
Yeah, I could probably, you can

938
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,720
probably go to a lot of jobs,
right.

939
00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:56,360
And, and you could you could
find someone doing their trade

940
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,160
really well and you could try
and copy it.

941
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,400
And maybe on the surface it
looks kind of like what they're

942
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:00,800
doing.
I.

943
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:01,880
Could tighten the screw of an
engine.

944
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:04,320
Yeah, I.
Wouldn't know why.

945
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:05,560
Yeah.
Do you know why working?

946
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,960
Do you know like the science
behind what made you do that or

947
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:09,560
what impact is going to have
long term?

948
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:11,320
Short term, No, of course you
don't.

949
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:12,880
But I can make it look like it.
Me.

950
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:13,920
That's what we've come, isn't
it?

951
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,760
Me making an IKEA furniture pack
following a set of instructions

952
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,800
doesn't make me a Carpenter, OK?
It's like if you're following a

953
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,960
lesson that's been planned for
you and delivering it, you could

954
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:23,840
build a fantastic, you know, set
of wardrobes.

955
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:25,080
Right.
And you can't even do that.

956
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:25,760
You.
Can not do that.

957
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,480
You could deliver a great
lesson, OK, but you're not the

958
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,120
professional.
No, you're not the person from

959
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:31,960
scratch thinking how am I going
to get kids from A to B?

960
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:33,160
Yeah.
And I want to make one more

961
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,400
point on this, which I think is
vital and consistently

962
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,600
overlooked as a huge problem in
teaching, is that every single

963
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,320
part of our training, well most
of our training, is either in

964
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,760
the form of insect day training
or in the form of after school

965
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,760
meetings.
Now, I think insect day training

966
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,840
can work, but I think a huge
problem of insect day training

967
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,120
is that we have so much
physically to do that that

968
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,880
becomes resentment when it gets
to INSET.

969
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,360
And instead of them saying
you've got this morning to plan

970
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,320
all of your lessons because
you're a professional and it

971
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,880
saves you doing it in your own
time, you've got some training.

972
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,800
So immediately, let's say I'm
doing some trauma, some trauma

973
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,240
training.
Yeah, children with trauma, or

974
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,000
we've done some training on
autism and ADHD, etcetera.

975
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,280
Yep, really powerful, important
training.

976
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,760
OK, very good, important
training that we need to do as

977
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,840
teachers.
If it's happening on INSET day,

978
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,440
I'm thinking oh God, I've got to
go and sort my room, otherwise

979
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,160
on Monday when I'm back at
school, there's nothing's going

980
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,240
to be ready and I'll go do my
weekend instead.

981
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,960
Or what's even worse, because
insect day can work because it's

982
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:34,840
a whole day and you could do
some good training.

983
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,720
Maybe half and half.
The worst thing in the world is

984
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:42,560
when you've done a whole day of
teaching and then we all pretend

985
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,960
that it's normal and sensible to
get all of the professionals in

986
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,760
a room and do some training
after doing 8 hours of work.

987
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,680
In what business?
Ever you forgot the best bit of

988
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:54,280
would.
You do that.

989
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,560
You forgot the best bit of all
that, which is there's always

990
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,320
still work to do after marking,
which doesn't get cancelled out.

991
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:00,920
Yeah, So it's like we're gonna
do this meeting.

992
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,880
Oh, brilliant.
At least I'll tell you what, it

993
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:04,520
makes a break from doing an hour
of marking.

994
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,240
I'll do an hour of this meeting.
No, you've got the marking as

995
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:07,600
well.
You've just got to do that as

996
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,480
well at some point.
But I don't care when you just

997
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:10,760
got to do it.
But do you know what I'd say to

998
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,160
those people?
Because it's what I've done for

999
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,400
most of my career.
Just don't mark then, because I

1000
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,120
just wouldn't.
And I'd be like, OK, catch me up

1001
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,280
in it and I'll tell you.
Oh, sorry, I was in that

1002
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:19,320
training.
That was so important.

1003
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:20,520
You know that training you did
for me?

1004
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,800
It took an hour and 10 minutes.
I was doing that.

1005
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:24,520
Right, exactly.
So I think the biggest flaw

1006
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,680
there is the fact that I'm done
in, I've done a day of work like

1007
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,120
the honestly, you do you know
what we should do if we're going

1008
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:31,680
to do this?
OK, if we're going to have the

1009
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,640
extra hour on a Wednesday, let's
say for some extra PCPB, do it

1010
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,200
first thing, get the teachers in
at half seven and do it till

1011
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,800
half eight.
Because I, I will get much more

1012
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,640
out of it then because like if
I'm going to do an extra hour,

1013
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:46,840
just get me in early and do it
because I'm going to do anyway

1014
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,520
and I'll be way more aware.
That is a huge problem because

1015
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,160
teachers, we're not getting
enough training.

1016
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,040
Continuous professional
development, that's good.

1017
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,720
We're getting a lot of training
that has been put onto staff to

1018
00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:01,520
do extra again.
Or you're the geography, you can

1019
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,480
do a geography CPD 95% of the
time.

1020
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,200
I'm sure people won't mind me
saying it's complete naff

1021
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,800
because you're not a trained
giver of of professional

1022
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,160
development.
Yeah, you're just a teacher

1023
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,040
who's been given geography and
now you need to roll out.

1024
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:16,160
Certain levels you just got told
to.

1025
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,320
Do it right.
So we need, we need quality CPD.

1026
00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:23,040
And it needs to be given to
teachers and professionals in a

1027
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:24,640
place where it's instead of
work.

1028
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:26,560
Yeah.
And it's not tagged on as well

1029
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,320
as work because CPD is work.
It's vital.

1030
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,520
And you'll see a push on your
profession and you'll be better

1031
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,480
because of it.
But you won't in the current

1032
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:37,680
system.
I'm going to counter it a little

1033
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,680
bit because I do think there is
a middle ground of CBD where and

1034
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,560
this, I think this happens quite
a lot in schools, right?

1035
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,480
Teachers are delivering CBD to
their staff, but maybe

1036
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,120
beforehand they'll go on a
course and it's a lot cheaper.

1037
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,520
So it's like rather than getting
that person, getting that person

1038
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,320
in to run a course in your
school, it's like, OK, we'll

1039
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,600
send a teacher and they can just
take notes and yeah, OK.

1040
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:56,880
Is it going to be as high
quality?

1041
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,080
Of course it's not, but it's
going to be much closer to them

1042
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:00,760
not doing it at all.
So there is a middle ground, I

1043
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,680
think of staff doing it like, I
think, you know, we've delivered

1044
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,320
maths training and I'd say some
of it probably looking back at

1045
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,840
it, it's like, yeah, who, who,
who, who on earth are we to do

1046
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:09,440
that?
But other times we've been on

1047
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,680
really good training and then
taken that back and then sort of

1048
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:13,600
delivered it in that way.
So I think I, I just think

1049
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,080
there's a bit of a scope there.
Completely I agree.

1050
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,720
And I think I guess the point
I'm also making is not

1051
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:21,000
everyone's cut out to to be a
professional development

1052
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,480
deliverer.
Like, you know, as teachers, we

1053
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,240
can do it, but I think it's very
different to a room of adults

1054
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:29,680
and it's been a very, OK, here's
how I'd summarise this just to

1055
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:34,520
finish off my CPD as a teacher
has been an incredibly mixed and

1056
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:37,160
there's a lot of room for
improvement because of what this

1057
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:38,720
guy's saying.
I do think we need to be wearing

1058
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:40,800
the badge of we're doing this
because of this and we can

1059
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:42,640
justify.
It yeah yeah, for sure.

1060
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:47,240
Amazing next paragraph.
This difference shows us clearly

1061
00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:50,280
in how assessment and student
support are handled too in the

1062
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,040
US, even though the assessment
culture is absolutely bloated.

1063
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:54,720
Well, they do a lot of tests and
stuff.

1064
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:55,800
Don't they?
There's a lot of testing out

1065
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,600
there.
There's at least a consistent

1066
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,040
infrastructure of real
diagnostic data.

1067
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,440
So it's all about diagnostics.
Now, whether the data is used

1068
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,440
well is another question, but
the system of evaluations and

1069
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,440
interventions tends to be
structurally in place.

1070
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,920
And he actually went to like
lead to list a few.

1071
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:11,840
I don't know what some of these
are.

1072
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:13,040
You might have heard of some of
these before.

1073
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:14,680
So first was an acronym.
Acronym.

1074
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,000
It's called dibbles or DIBBLES
that I pronounce it, but it

1075
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,840
means dynamic indicators of
basic early literacy skills.

1076
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,680
They have founders and pin all
benchmarking at the start of

1077
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,880
each marking period, MAP growth
assessments, maths, reading and

1078
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:27,840
science. 3 * a year.
I imagine that's a bit more like

1079
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,280
our summative assessments that
we do diagnostics every nine

1080
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,040
weeks across, across cross
reading and maths.

1081
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,280
And then across special
education.

1082
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,440
They have initial eligibility
evaluations, annual IEP reviews,

1083
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,160
we have those as well and
progress monitoring and then

1084
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,160
triennial reevaluations across
cognitive, academic and adaptive

1085
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:45,680
domains.
So like you said, it sounds like

1086
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,280
they do a lot of testing, but
he's kind of taken it down the

1087
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,720
scope of yeah, but it's
diagnostics rather than he said

1088
00:43:51,720 --> 00:43:54,320
it's bloated, sure, but the
feedback loop between assessment

1089
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:55,800
and intervention is actually
real.

1090
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,040
And by contrast, what shocked me
here is how much of the

1091
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,320
so-called data feels
manufactured purely for

1092
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,160
leadership optics rather than
for student learning.

1093
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,880
I've now been I've I've now been
directly told by two head

1094
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,640
teachers that when submitting
assessment data I should ensure

1095
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,600
all students move up two points.
Well, I've heard that before.

1096
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,320
Not based on actual progress,
but because that's what will

1097
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,840
show expected growth to
governors, to trust leadership

1098
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,320
to Ofsted.
I've been told outright that

1099
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,480
marking isn't really for the
kids, it's for leadership.

1100
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:28,280
I've watched colleagues
scramble.

1101
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,200
This is like you bring about
bring about memories here ready

1102
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:31,320
for this one is going to same
for you.

1103
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,560
I've watched colleagues scramble
to backfill workbook comments

1104
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,080
before book looks.
Not because those comments would

1105
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,800
support the child, but because
the books need to look the part

1106
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,560
bringing up bad memories.
What are we doing?

1107
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,160
Because he's completely.
Yeah, it happens everywhere.

1108
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,240
Do you know what?
I'm going to be very honest

1109
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,160
right now.
This is what he's described.

1110
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,560
There is the thing that's
probably going to make me quit

1111
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,600
teaching.
It's probably the thing that

1112
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:04,000
will push me over the edge
because it's such a widespread

1113
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:09,480
attitude in primary schools.
It's so widespread that I feel

1114
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,280
like I can't even move the
needle for a lot of people on

1115
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:11,720
this.
Yeah.

1116
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:13,000
Yeah.
Because you are.

1117
00:45:13,240 --> 00:45:14,880
He's absolutely right.
The amount of times we've had a

1118
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,520
conversation where it's gone
like this.

1119
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:19,840
Why do we assess children?
Oh, it's.

1120
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:21,760
It's so we can see where they're
at and help them.

1121
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,000
OK, so this assessment you're
asking me to do, how will that

1122
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,000
inform what I do in the future
for the children?

1123
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,520
Oh, well, it won't really,
because we know what we're doing

1124
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,280
next already.
And I suppose this is just to

1125
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,560
see a baseline that we're going
to put some data in somewhere.

1126
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,040
So will this be used in a people
progress meeting?

1127
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:37,280
Yeah.
Yeah.

1128
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:38,840
Because then we can justify how
much they've moved.

1129
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:40,600
How's it going to help the kids?
Oh, I guess it won't really,

1130
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:41,920
because we'll just do it again
next time.

1131
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,000
Why are we doing it then?
Because leadership.

1132
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:46,480
Said we have to because we have
to, yeah.

1133
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,520
OK, can we?
So we all agree that we

1134
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:50,920
shouldn't and that it's
pointless?

1135
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:52,080
Yeah.
Yeah, but we've got to.

1136
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:55,200
OK, I quit like, like that's
where my head goes because I

1137
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:59,320
just think to myself, what?
Yeah, what profession can we all

1138
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,040
collectively agree something
doesn't have an impact, but all

1139
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:03,640
think that it's OK to carry on
doing it then?

1140
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,760
Yeah, nail on the head.
I think there's a middle ground

1141
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:11,320
between US and Uki would I, I
don't necessarily think that you

1142
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,720
need to be closing all of them
loops of assessment over there

1143
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,400
that he seems to be describing.
Yeah, but at least they are

1144
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,080
closing the loops.
Every single bit of assessment

1145
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,040
that you do with your children,
the only question you should ask

1146
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:26,840
yourself after is what impact is
knowing this information going

1147
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:28,040
to have on the outcomes of the
child.

1148
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:29,000
Yeah, absolutely.
Right.

1149
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,880
So if you're just doing
assessment for the sake of

1150
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,080
filling out a grid and making
the move two points up, so in a

1151
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:34,880
governor's meeting it looks like
the school's doing something.

1152
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,440
Complete waste of your time if
you're doing assessment because

1153
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,640
for example, again, I'm going
back to maths because we lead

1154
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,160
maths, we do every single class
does an aromatic test every week

1155
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,600
that has a few rules because
there's a reason for this.

1156
00:46:47,720 --> 00:46:51,360
We could do just a arithmetic
test off the shelf, which is

1157
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,120
completely random and it might
be full of stuff they haven't

1158
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:54,880
even learnt yet.
That would become pointless to

1159
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:56,320
me.
What's the point in testing

1160
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:57,840
children and stuff they haven't
learnt yet?

1161
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,800
Yeah, absolutely pointless.
So what we say to people is do

1162
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,560
10 questions, write them in the
morning based on what you've

1163
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:04,640
already done.
OK.

1164
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:06,120
And the photocopier.
Yeah, easy job.

1165
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:07,960
What do you want to know that
they can, can or can't do?

1166
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,200
Exactly.
Because then when you mark that

1167
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,080
test, yeah, immediately, that
can inform what you do next.

1168
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,400
They even know it.
Nothing happens.

1169
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,640
You know they know it.
Test them again in 2-3 weeks.

1170
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:20,760
They don't know it.
They should know it.

1171
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,600
I'm gonna do an intervention
that is directly closing the

1172
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:25,680
feedback loop.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1173
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,600
It's diagnostic.
You're moving in on a target.

1174
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:30,320
Like I've always said, still
fill gaps.

1175
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,080
It's not pointless filling gaps.
It's very important to do, but

1176
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:35,880
it has a clear purpose and end
goal.

1177
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:37,600
If it doesn't have that, don't
do it.

1178
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,400
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
It sounds like the US is really

1179
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:41,440
bloated.
You said it a few times,

1180
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,560
bloated.
It does sound unnecessarily

1181
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,040
bloated because I think you
could probably half the amount

1182
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,160
of things you do there.
And a teacher realistically

1183
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,200
being a professional has
probably gauged all of the

1184
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:53,680
outcome, like all of the
insights that you get from that

1185
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:55,360
data.
They probably gauged it in half

1186
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,720
the amount of data.
Like you're just over like just

1187
00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:00,400
over diagnostics now.
I mean, it's just too much.

1188
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,240
But yeah, in this country it's
much worse because we do all of

1189
00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:05,480
that work and it's pointless
because we don't even use it for

1190
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,800
diagnostics.
Some of it we do a lot of it we

1191
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,160
don't like this poor guy.
I don't know what schools you

1192
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,560
worked in.
And I guess he's asking if if

1193
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,240
he's just as you just fall into
like the only schools that have

1194
00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:17,520
done this.
But unfortunately not really,

1195
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,000
mate.
There's a lot of schools in this

1196
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:20,880
country that work exactly like
that.

1197
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:22,840
And I agree, it is pushing me
towards quitting.

1198
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:24,920
Everything we said there about
what's like all those things

1199
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:26,880
that he's been asked to do is
like an amalgamation of all the

1200
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:28,840
previous points.
It's kind of like that this is

1201
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:30,880
where we've ended up.
Like if you take all the

1202
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,160
previous points and how they've
all negatively impacted acted

1203
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,480
this profession, this is the
outcome.

1204
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,320
We have schools that exist that
do this sort of stuff, you know,

1205
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,040
walking around, it's just I
just, it pains me.

1206
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:42,960
It pains me to hear.
About it because what's it

1207
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:44,840
easier to do from an SLT point
of view, right?

1208
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,000
What's it easier to do?
Get to the root causes of the

1209
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,640
problems and find actual
qualified teachers to teach

1210
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,720
staff and actually get pedagogy
where it should be and make

1211
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:58,520
massive outcomes and children.
Or go around with the clipboard

1212
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:00,360
and tick the fact that a mass
display has been updated.

1213
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,920
Possibly.
What's actually easier and looks

1214
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,560
like you're doing a job more
inputting data That's false.

1215
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:07,000
Get 2 points up.
Yeah.

1216
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:09,720
Having writing moderation of
year 6 where the head teacher

1217
00:49:09,720 --> 00:49:11,600
sits with the children and
literally makes the child change

1218
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,600
something to literally cheat to
get them through a set of

1219
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:14,080
papers.
Yeah, yeah.

1220
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:15,800
What's what's easier?
That's easier.

1221
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,040
So papers over the cracks of the
huge problem that we have

1222
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,120
because we get by.
Look, there are schools doing

1223
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,000
really well.
That proves that it's fine.

1224
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,000
And if you're not doing really
well, that's your school's

1225
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:25,400
fault.
No, that school's being

1226
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,720
realistic.
This school's cheating and lying

1227
00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:30,000
and doing bad things to make it
look like it's getting through.

1228
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:31,400
Yeah.
No one's getting through.

1229
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:33,560
The whole thing's broken.
Yeah absolutely.

1230
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:35,800
My favourite bit is when head
teachers then gas like their

1231
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,680
stuff staff into thinking that,
that we're all just playing a

1232
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:39,720
game and they're on the same
side.

1233
00:49:39,720 --> 00:49:41,640
I've heard this loads of times,
right, where head teachers like,

1234
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,240
look, I know this is pointless.
The head teacher saying, I know

1235
00:49:45,240 --> 00:49:46,560
this is a pointless end the
conversation.

1236
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:48,440
I know, I know, please stop
there.

1237
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:50,600
I know it's a pointless.
But look, we all agree we've got

1238
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,480
to do it, that we've got to play
the game, got to keep Ofsted

1239
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:54,400
happy and all that.
But we know that really behind

1240
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:55,760
the scenes we're doing this
important work.

1241
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,200
Honestly, I, I'm sick of it now.
I used to be a bit like a bit

1242
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,480
more forgiving of that and be
like, OK, head teachers under

1243
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,320
the same pressure.
So honestly, grow a backbone at

1244
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:04,360
this point.
I think if I was in that

1245
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,560
position now, I'd only be in
that position if I was willing

1246
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:08,280
to try and make a change.
I couldn't do it now.

1247
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,640
I couldn't go into that position
and just be like.

1248
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:12,480
I'll.
Just do as I'm told.

1249
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:13,760
I'll just do as I'm told.
No, do you know what?

1250
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:15,680
No, I'm gonna make a stand.
I would make a stand and be

1251
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:17,080
like, no, we're doing these
things.

1252
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,160
And they are purposeful.
All of them.

1253
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,640
Here is the evidence.
I'm not doing that thing because

1254
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,160
of this reason, this reason.
And that's so clear reasons that

1255
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:25,920
I'm not doing these things.
So don't really care what you

1256
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:27,040
think.
We're doing these.

1257
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:28,280
Look what's happening in our
school.

1258
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,720
It's great.
It winds me up.

1259
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,280
It really, really winds me up.
It's just everyone's scared.

1260
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:35,160
Everyone's scared from the head
teacher downward.

1261
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,480
Everyone's scared of doing the
thing that looks worse optically

1262
00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:40,320
than actually just doing the
right thing for the kids.

1263
00:50:40,720 --> 00:50:42,600
Yeah, there's a reason why
they're scared, because they

1264
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:43,680
could lose their job.
Yeah.

1265
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,640
So again, I wanna get that
little inkling there where it's

1266
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,120
like, okay, look, we get it.
But I completely agree with your

1267
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,000
point because the point we're
really making is therefore this

1268
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,640
system isn't for us.
And one day we will quit.

1269
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:57,880
That that is exactly what will
happen.

1270
00:50:57,880 --> 00:50:59,720
There's no way I can forge a
career here.

1271
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:01,760
I've got no interest in going
high because of what you just

1272
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:03,440
said.
I've got no interest in doing it

1273
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,200
long time because of the
pressure from the top down to

1274
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,040
doing same things.
I will quit.

1275
00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:10,880
And every single thing he said
here is the reason why I quit.

1276
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:13,320
And it's, it's, it's that it's
as simple as that.

1277
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,600
And it's like all the great
things about the job that we

1278
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,520
talked about so often.
They can still exist, but as

1279
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:22,360
long as this carries on by then,
because I I will quit one day I

1280
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:23,600
will.
Yeah, I know, I know.

1281
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,160
I'm going to wrap this one up.
So there is a bit more of this

1282
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,320
e-mail, but he he kind of goes
into a summary after that and

1283
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:29,920
we've sort of covered all of the
points anyway.

1284
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:31,760
So he said, I know I've covered
a lot here.

1285
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,280
Thank you for sticking with me.
I'd really love to hear your

1286
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:35,360
take on a few of these
questions.

1287
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:35,960
Which.
There you go.

1288
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:38,200
Yeah, he said.
It's hard not to feel like the

1289
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,760
whole system is built to prove
teaching is happening rather

1290
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:43,640
than to make sure learning is
happening.

1291
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,640
Whoever they do, you know what,
whoever you are like for

1292
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:48,400
somebody, I don't know how long
you've been in the UK, but

1293
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,120
you've really sort of like,
captured the whole culture quite

1294
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:53,200
well.
And I think you should ticket, I

1295
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:54,160
think.
You should read that sentence

1296
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:55,480
one more time.
I'm going to do it all the time.

1297
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,080
It's hard not to feel like the
whole system is built to prove

1298
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,200
teaching is happening rather
than to make sure learning is.

1299
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:03,240
Happening.
It's completely true.

1300
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:05,040
Completely true.
There we go.

1301
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:05,920
There you go.
No.

1302
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,000
Brilliant e-mail.
Thank you, thank you, thank you

1303
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:08,640
for that.
Yeah.

1304
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,600
And it just goes to show again,
if you if you please, we do read

1305
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,520
all the emails genuinely.
Obviously we can't use

1306
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,120
everything all the time and if
Hayden's not seen it, he might

1307
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:17,680
put the back burner for about 10
years.

1308
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:19,960
And advise it or do something
about it I might.

1309
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,000
Reply it is.
Yeah.

1310
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,120
That was a fantastic, fantastic
segment.

1311
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:25,840
I love that.
I really want to hear what

1312
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,960
everyone else thinks about that
because I think nail on the

1313
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:30,680
head, like I said at the start,
every single thing.

1314
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:36,200
Let's wrap up with a little chat
about striking because it's in

1315
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:37,920
the news again.
It's not, it's not going to

1316
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,040
happen for sure.
But I just wanted to round it

1317
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:41,640
off.
And I think coming off the back

1318
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:46,200
of that is a fantastic,
fantastic segue into just a

1319
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,280
quick 10 minute chat about
what's been happening lately.

1320
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:49,800
Because you would have seen
striking And there might be

1321
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:51,320
listeners who are like, oh, the
guys haven't talked about

1322
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,440
striking or trust me, we've been
keeping paying attention to

1323
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,080
this.
So do you mind if I just give a

1324
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:56,040
quick summary of what's
happened?

1325
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:57,200
Yeah, go for it.
So.

1326
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,520
Every year teachers get a pay
rise.

1327
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,080
Well, we, we didn't for a while
during austerity really, but in

1328
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,760
the last few years we're getting
a pay rise and there's been a

1329
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,240
proposed pay rise from the
Department for Education, from

1330
00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:13,000
the government of 2.8 percent,
2.8% pay rise.

1331
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:17,560
Now you look at that figure and
you think that seems to be a bit

1332
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:19,800
below inflation, What's happened
recently?

1333
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:24,920
And the NEU have essentially
said that we should be rejecting

1334
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:28,960
this because it is both
unacceptable and unfunded.

1335
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:33,600
I it's, it feels like Groundhog
Day because 2 1/2 years ago we

1336
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,280
were saying the same thing.
Here's what the NEU is fighting

1337
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:40,040
for and saying why.
And by the way, Hayden and I

1338
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:41,200
both agreed because we talked
about this.

1339
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,920
So this is our point of view as
well, that the 2.8% proposed pay

1340
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,600
wise is wrong. 2 prongs first
prong.

1341
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:51,000
And this doesn't get mentioned
very often because we're lovely

1342
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:52,520
people who think about the kids
first.

1343
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:54,320
So I'm going to save that one
for after.

1344
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,640
The first reason why we should
reject this is because it's

1345
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:02,240
unacceptable.
It's below inflation and if not

1346
00:54:02,240 --> 00:54:05,440
hovering around inflation.
And we've enjoyed about 15 years

1347
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,080
of below inflation, so we need
above inflation.

1348
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:09,560
We got one last year though.
Yeah, we did.

1349
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,840
And it was 5%.
And I'm pretty sure inflation

1350
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,480
got to about 12% at some point.
So actually that was a pay cut

1351
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:15,760
as well.
So actually, do you know what?

1352
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,680
Yeah, we should be defending our
profession and we should be

1353
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,440
getting above, Yeah, inflation
pay rise that that.

1354
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:23,720
It's as simple as that.
So let's park that for a minute

1355
00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:25,640
because that's not trendy to
say, but I'm going to say it

1356
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:28,680
because I think it's true.
The one that we see here are

1357
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,640
more, a lot more of which to me
is equally important.

1358
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,240
Perhaps, Hayden, you can tell us
why and what we mean when we say

1359
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,200
that this is also unfunded.
What?

1360
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:37,920
What does that mean?
Yeah.

1361
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,040
OK, So the term that gets
bounded around a lot is fully

1362
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:43,440
funded.
We're after a fully funded pay

1363
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,280
rise.
Now what happened for a very,

1364
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,640
very, very long time is pay
rises haven't been funded.

1365
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:48,840
You might be thinking, what does
that mean?

1366
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:50,240
Where?
How can you get to pay rise?

1367
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,840
Magic money what they're saying
is within the existing school

1368
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,800
budget, you can now allocate
this percent more to teachers,

1369
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:58,680
right So you you have to you
have to yeah, exactly.

1370
00:54:58,680 --> 00:54:59,840
So it's going up.
You have to.

1371
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:02,640
So it just squeezes school
budgets more in, in other, other

1372
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:04,640
areas.
And now bearing in mind for most

1373
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,960
school budgets, considerably
more than 50% of the budget goes

1374
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:09,920
on teacher pay anyway.
Like in some schools, it's more

1375
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,600
like 80 percent, 80% of the
school budget just literally

1376
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:16,240
pays staff.
So to squeeze that 20% even more

1377
00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:19,240
and more and more and more and
more for like a good decade at

1378
00:55:19,240 --> 00:55:22,240
least of that happening, by the
way, just unfunded pay rise

1379
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:23,960
after unfunded pay rise after
unfunded pay rise.

1380
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,240
If we got a pay rise.
Yeah, If there was a pay rise,

1381
00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:28,520
it was always unfunded to the
point where like last year was

1382
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:30,720
like a Hallelujah moment because
it was the first time in not in

1383
00:55:30,720 --> 00:55:33,520
my whole career certainly, that
the pay rise was actually

1384
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:34,760
funded.
As in, and what we mean by

1385
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,640
funded is the government
actually allocates more of the

1386
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,920
budget to education.
The government actually fund

1387
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,240
teachers getting a pay rise and
the rest of the school budget

1388
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:44,160
stays.
It's the same.

1389
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,400
It doesn't get squeezed more.
And the reason why that was so

1390
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,320
bad was it was pushing the guilt
onto the profession.

1391
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:51,200
We were saying, well, we're
giving you a pay rise.

1392
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,640
Why don't you just accept it?
Because we actually care about

1393
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:55,720
the kids and me getting more
money.

1394
00:55:55,720 --> 00:55:56,960
Do you know what that ends up
meaning?

1395
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,680
Two things #1 the kids get less
stuff.

1396
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:01,680
Yeah.
It's harder to order things for

1397
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:03,000
the children to do.
Yeah.

1398
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:05,840
And again, it impacts my job
because I've got to somehow make

1399
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:07,640
up for that.
The second thing it does, and

1400
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:10,640
this happens up and down the
country, support staff lose

1401
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,760
their jobs because teachers are
getting the pay rise and support

1402
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,880
staff are just treated like
second class citizens when it

1403
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:18,440
comes to giving them any kind of
pay.

1404
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:20,920
Yeah, firstly, they're on
horrific pay, which is just a

1405
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:22,720
disgusting insult to be honest
with you.

1406
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,360
That annoys me so much because
they could go and get a job

1407
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,960
somewhere else with half the
stress doing half the important

1408
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,640
job and to get more money.
So we need to pay them right.

1409
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:32,600
Anyway, they don't often get a
pay rise that we get.

1410
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:36,320
And because teachers is if it is
coming out of the existing

1411
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,160
budget, you take some out of
your staff in general, because

1412
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:41,880
schools decide, well, I need to
take out staffing because

1413
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,040
because I need, I need this
golden budget here, this last

1414
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,760
15% for the books and everything
else that happens.

1415
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:48,720
It's already as minimised as it
could possibly.

1416
00:56:48,720 --> 00:56:51,680
Be so me taking that pay rise,
not only does it mean one of my

1417
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:55,320
friends loses their job, it also
means that I then don't get

1418
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:56,800
assistance in my classroom.
Yeah.

1419
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,440
So it's like, OK, what is the
payoff here?

1420
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:00,680
The children are getting a worse
deal.

1421
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,120
I'm really getting a worse deal,
and my friend has lost their

1422
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:03,520
job.
Yeah.

1423
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:05,160
Everything is worse.
It's disgusting, everything is

1424
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:06,520
worse.
And schools are at the point now

1425
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,720
where there's no, there's no
leverage anymore.

1426
00:57:09,720 --> 00:57:13,200
There's nothing they can do to
be like, OK, well, maybe we look

1427
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:15,400
we've got a little bit of a
luxury budget with this one

1428
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:16,880
element.
Maybe we'll just take a bit out

1429
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:20,400
of that and we can re refund it.
There's nothing left.

1430
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:22,760
If you're not in education, you
need to hear this.

1431
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:26,000
There is nothing left.
Everything is at its absolute

1432
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:27,680
minimum.
Kids are getting nothing,

1433
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:30,400
buildings are falling down.
There's no repair costs, there's

1434
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,120
no staffing costs.
There is literally nothing left.

1435
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,000
And all the government needs to
do is fund it properly because

1436
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,080
they haven't done in so long.
Apart from last year, like in

1437
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:42,000
the last 20 years, barely any of
those changes have been funded.

1438
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:43,880
You think about how the
economies change in 10 years,

1439
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:45,200
now inflation has changed the
economy.

1440
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:47,760
It's insanity when you really
think about it.

1441
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:49,880
I just mean, it's disgusting.
Yeah, but the government waiting

1442
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:51,680
anyway.
They're not going to then that's

1443
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:53,600
not like my final offer yet.
So they're going to wait for the

1444
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,120
STRB, which what they did last
year, the official

1445
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,800
recommendation of what the and
that's independent.

1446
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,520
That's an independent body that
reviews schools and teachers and

1447
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:03,320
they recommend pay basically
like what it should.

1448
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:05,040
They're usually quite fair with
their.

1449
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:06,400
Recommendations, to be honest,
yeah.

1450
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:08,800
So it'll probably be a little
bit higher than the 2.8% and

1451
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:11,360
they accept it I imagine.
Yeah, you can see what what

1452
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:13,360
potentially the government are
doing because again, Labour

1453
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:16,280
pride themselves on being the
education people and you can see

1454
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:18,920
where if they put this number
out and there's a huge outcry

1455
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,040
when they put the real number
out, maybe it's like 3.2.

1456
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:22,480
Yeah, we listened.
We listened.

1457
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:23,640
It's higher, but they always
they always.

1458
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:24,920
Didn't you were going to do that
anyway?

1459
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:28,480
Yeah, exactly.
So very quickly what the NEU did

1460
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:30,720
then was a pre emptive vote, not
an official vote.

1461
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:36,720
And the results look like this.
So 47.2% turn out of people who

1462
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:39,960
are NEU members voted on this.
Now something to bear in mind is

1463
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,960
that for for it to be a viable
vote, you need over half in a

1464
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:43,680
real one.
Yeah.

1465
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:45,360
So it's close enough to a
halfway.

1466
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:47,600
The NEU have said they're
confident if it was a real

1467
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:50,360
ballot, all of these people
would vote again, obviously, and

1468
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:52,520
we'd be able to persuade more
people to go over the 50%.

1469
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:55,120
So that looks like it is
indicative that it would happen.

1470
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:59,440
Yeah, for sure.
And of those 47 percent, 93.7%,

1471
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:04,240
let me say that again, 93.7, not
52 like in Brexit, which changed

1472
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:08,600
the whole outlook of the country
as a whole, not over 9093.7%

1473
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:13,800
declined the pay rise and 83%
are willing to go and strike for

1474
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,480
it now.
I think this sums up the anger

1475
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,600
because yeah, we talked about
this .1 we need more money.

1476
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:20,920
Sure.
The real anger, and I can see

1477
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:24,240
why it's coming from people will
be watching their school go for

1478
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:28,600
another year of being squeezed
out on everything and they are

1479
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:30,880
completely fed up.
So that's why we want to go

1480
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:32,560
strike.
Especially like you imagine all

1481
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:35,720
of us, right, most teachers are
not voting Conservative.

1482
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:37,800
It's just after the last 1415
years.

1483
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:40,240
It just isn't happening, right?
And we started this podcast the

1484
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,040
kind of the end of the Tory
reign, right?

1485
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:43,640
And we have this whole, you
know, our first episode on

1486
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:47,280
striking teachers are now like,
oh, finally, no, OK, they might

1487
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,240
not even love Labour, but
they're but they're thinking,

1488
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:53,240
OK, Labour have just spent the
last five years slaughtering the

1489
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:56,200
Tories about how they are, how
they should be listening to

1490
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:58,040
teachers and then taking the
profession seriously.

1491
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,280
And they were all on our all on
our side, weren't they?

1492
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:02,400
They're backing us up, backing
us up when the Tories weren't

1493
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:05,000
doing it, weren't caving to any
of these demands we were making.

1494
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,080
And the strikes happen.
And then and then the Labour

1495
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:08,560
gets in and the pay rise
happens.

1496
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:10,840
It's all great.
So fortunately we've got Labour

1497
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,080
in now, right, Dylan?
And so I'd love to hear what

1498
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:16,200
what our education secretary.
Actually, Bridget Phillipson has

1499
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:18,040
actually said about all this
because obviously she's in such

1500
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:20,760
a great supporter of the anti
Tory ways of defunding

1501
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:22,280
education.
What does she say?

1502
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:25,800
Well, we're seeing unfortunately
a lot of the same rhetoric we

1503
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:27,640
saw from Gillian.
I want you to imagine this is

1504
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:30,160
Gillian Keegan who said this.
OK, so I'm going to read out a

1505
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:31,680
quote.
It's from Bridget Phillipson,

1506
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:33,360
the current Labour Education
Secretary.

1507
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,280
But just imagine what a reply
would be if this was Gillian

1508
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:37,680
Keegan from the Tories 2 years
ago.

1509
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:40,920
With school staff, parents and
young people working so hard to

1510
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:44,880
turn the tide on school
attendance, any move towards

1511
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:48,680
industrial action by teaching
unions would be indefensible.

1512
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:52,680
Following the 5.5% pay award in
hugely challenging fiscal

1513
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:56,640
context last year, I would urge
the NEU to put children first.

1514
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:01,360
Let's quickly dissect this.
OK, first thing, if that was

1515
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:06,200
Gillian Keegan, I would be
seeing a lot more push back, a

1516
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:08,440
lot more videos from
influencers, online, big

1517
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:11,560
education accounts slating.
That every single one of.

1518
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:14,680
Them they would all be slating
that and what I have noticed is

1519
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:19,960
we're seeing a lot less of this.
Why I I don't know is it because

1520
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:22,240
it's Labour and then suddenly
because it's Labour.

1521
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,280
I'm probably guilty in the past
of letting Labour get away with

1522
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:29,160
things that are maybe the Tories
of course now, but this is a

1523
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:31,120
terrible thing to say and I'm
not scared to say.

1524
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:32,960
Children. 1st that's the bit I
was gonna.

1525
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:34,320
I can't.
I can't get over it.

1526
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,320
Put the children first.
It's literally, it's like, cool,

1527
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:38,640
we got the Tories back then.
Yeah, that to me, I'm like, that

1528
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:40,280
encapsulates that.
You've just, she has.

1529
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:43,400
I hope that she didn't mean this
because if this is her real

1530
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:45,640
feelings and that she has just
revealed herself as the exact

1531
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:48,240
same person, the exact same kind
of kind of politician.

1532
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:50,280
Put the children first.
Who you talking to?

1533
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:53,160
Seriously, Who do you think you
are talking to?

1534
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:55,120
You have you have insulted me
for my I'm not.

1535
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:58,080
I'm not easily insulted, but
that is insulting.

1536
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:00,280
Put the children.
What do you think we're doing?

1537
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:02,800
What do you think we're doing
when we decide to go and strike

1538
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:05,560
and lose hundreds of pounds of
pay in this current fiscal

1539
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:07,640
context, what you've just
described for?

1540
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:10,320
A fully funded pay rise.
You've just described how

1541
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:11,920
challenging this fiscal context
is.

1542
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:15,040
Teachers going on strike lose
hundreds and hundreds of pounds

1543
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,080
in this, what you're calling a
challenging fiscal context

1544
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:22,160
because we are putting the
children from first and we can

1545
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:28,040
see how any unfunded pay rise
will be detrimental to our kids.

1546
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,640
I am horrified by these words.
I can understand why government

1547
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:34,320
minister wouldn't want schools
to go on strike.

1548
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:35,840
Of course, of course you
wouldn't.

1549
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:39,640
But do not pretend for one
second with your nodding to the

1550
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:42,920
attendance crisis or the
indefence, the indefensible move

1551
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:45,760
towards strike action or the
fact we got a pay award last

1552
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:46,720
year.
Yeah, yeah.

1553
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:48,520
That's.
That's how money works, Bridget.

1554
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:51,200
That's how inflation works.
We need more money every year.

1555
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:52,960
That's how it works.
I'm pretty sure you're all right

1556
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:54,480
with your pay awards.
Private sector are managing to

1557
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:55,520
keep up.
Yeah, right.

1558
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:58,440
So maybe you can.
It's just disgusting.

1559
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:02,000
And and I, I really wound me up
and I think I'm, I'm very wound

1560
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:03,760
up with this, with this
attitude.

1561
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:06,200
And I think I'm also wound up
with people giving them a free

1562
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:07,200
pass.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1563
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:08,280
That is winding me up a little
bit.

1564
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:10,360
But you know, they're saying the
right thing, aren't they?

1565
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:12,440
They're saying the right thing.
We're putting teachers first.

1566
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:15,520
Look, we're talking to all of
these education influencers and

1567
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:17,600
doing all this kind of stuff.
Cool, cool, nice one.

1568
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:19,200
But you're, you're, you're not
changed though, have you?

1569
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:21,920
This isn't any different because
this could be from Bridget

1570
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:23,640
Phillipson.
If you walked up to someone and

1571
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:25,960
said, do you think this was from
a Tory minister or a Labour

1572
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:27,480
minister?
95% of the people.

1573
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:29,960
Yeah, of course they would.
And then Bridget Phillipson

1574
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:31,480
takes off her mask and it's.
Gillian Keegan.

1575
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:33,280
It's like it's just two faced at
this point.

1576
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:35,560
If you're going to say stuff
like that, I don't know, it's

1577
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:37,680
very two faced.
I'm I'm really, really, really,

1578
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:39,000
really disappointed.
Yeah, in her.

1579
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:42,120
Can I come back to you then
with, let's say some something

1580
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:45,560
someone might say, OK, because I
think I do everything we just

1581
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:47,360
said.
I'm not contradicting myself

1582
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:51,040
when I say this because I do
feel like Labour are also trying

1583
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:52,920
to do some things differently.
Sure.

1584
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:54,920
OK.
So for example, there's been the

1585
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:59,720
the rolling out of The Breakfast
Club wrap around care, which I

1586
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:02,400
think is very important that all
schools do offer.

1587
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:06,000
I like the idea of it because it
means that people in work are

1588
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:07,880
able to safely drop their kids
off at school.

1589
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:10,600
They're already at school.
They can do some pre club or

1590
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:13,320
some post school club and then
get picked up, get some

1591
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:14,320
breakfast, get some.
Dinner.

1592
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:15,560
I agree.
I think it's a fantastic idea.

1593
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:16,720
Great.
And I don't think the Tories

1594
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:18,560
have done that, in all honesty.
Yeah, exactly.

1595
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:20,960
So it took a footballer to get
that happening in one time.

1596
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:23,480
I mean, the Tories were not
interested in actually helping

1597
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:24,760
kids.
Yeah, the Tories closed schools

1598
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:27,360
and said what about the kids who
get food from school that tough,

1599
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,360
tough Yeah.
So that's abhorrent and I do I I

1600
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:34,160
still think that Labour have
some more moral ground than the.

1601
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:36,680
Concern let's make that clear so
do I I'm just really

1602
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:38,600
disappointed in that particular
thing which is done and you know

1603
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:41,120
everyone makes mistakes whatever
fine yeah it could easily be

1604
01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:43,160
rectified but come on like to to
state to.

1605
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:45,520
No, no, no, no.
I'm not gonna let.

1606
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:46,720
I'm not.
I'm gonna completely disagree

1607
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:47,320
with you there.
Go on.

1608
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:49,200
You don't say that and make a
mistake.

1609
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,440
That's not that's not a mistake.
A mistake would be running some

1610
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:54,480
numbers and being like, I don't
think we can afford it, but then

1611
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:56,840
deciding obviously it is part of
your moral compass that you have

1612
01:04:56,840 --> 01:04:59,040
run the whole think about what
Labour's about.

1613
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:02,200
It should be about education.
But for me saying something like

1614
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:06,200
I would urge the NEU to put
children first is indefensible

1615
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:09,480
because the NEU are teachers.
So don't do what the Tories did

1616
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:12,120
and try and separate NEU from
unions and from teachers.

1617
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:16,120
Who do you think formed the
Labour, the Labour Party 120

1618
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:18,800
years ago, the trade unions?
You are supposed to be

1619
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:21,880
representing these people, NEU.
It's indefensible, NEU.

1620
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:23,360
Yeah, yeah, I like using her
words.

1621
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:25,120
It's indefensible.
Yeah, yeah, I agree anyway.

1622
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:26,040
Fair enough.
You know what that's.

1623
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:27,600
Fair.
So we're what what Labour are

1624
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:30,320
currently doing is rolling out
Breakfast Club and there's lots

1625
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:32,720
of there's thousands of trial
schools, OK, there are lots and

1626
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:34,120
lots of trial schools who are
going for it.

1627
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:39,200
But recently, 79 schools have
withdrawn from this trial

1628
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:41,840
because, and they all said the
same thing.

1629
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:44,120
They said it's not funded
properly.

1630
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:47,600
Oh, for God's sake.
So it's a it's again, Again.

1631
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:48,960
I don't want Labour to fall into
this trap.

1632
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:51,000
And it is a test.
So I'm absolutely going to give

1633
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:53,120
them the leeway to to prove that
it is a test.

1634
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:54,560
So they're going to change it.
OK, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1635
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:58,040
But what these schools are
saying is it is not funded.

1636
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:01,840
So it's taking more money.
Well, it's funded, but not

1637
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:03,440
enough, right?
Sorry, it's not.

1638
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:06,360
Fully funded, I should say,
because schools are getting some

1639
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:08,680
money for it and they love the
concept.

1640
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:10,480
I don't think there's anyone in
the school who thinks this is a

1641
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:12,160
bad idea.
I think it's fantastic idea.

1642
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:15,040
Yeah, but can you maybe Hayden,
you could just go into some

1643
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:17,200
detail then you've got some
numbers up here.

1644
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:19,320
Yeah.
How much Breakfast Club actually

1645
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:22,120
costs, how much the funding is
what's what, what teachers are

1646
01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:23,480
saying in.
School, I mean, take take Lucy,

1647
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:24,840
because the end of the day,
every school's going to be

1648
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:26,240
slightly different, of course,
every school budget's

1649
01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:29,600
differently, but one one CEO of
a multi Academy trust said the

1650
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:31,120
funding gap is quite
considerable.

1651
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:36,440
So they found that a club for 30
children would cost at least

1652
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:39,480
��26.10 per day, which already
seems insanely low, right?

1653
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:41,600
How can you get lower than that?
But the funding would equate to

1654
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:43,920
about ��20.70, right?
So it was quite, it was quite a

1655
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:46,360
shortfall there in funding.
And what do their school have to

1656
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:47,640
do to do this?
Well, they have to just make up

1657
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:49,880
the funding, right?
And if you go back to a point

1658
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:52,480
from 5 minutes ago, remember
when I said that there's nothing

1659
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:54,840
left in schools?
Here's the irony of that.

1660
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:58,200
When there's nothing left in
schools, if you want to have any

1661
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:00,240
leeway with your schools, you're
the education secretary and you

1662
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:02,280
want to have this big push, this
great new thing.

1663
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:05,000
Oh, guess what, there's no
funding left so that the schools

1664
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:06,320
can't even make up that
shortfall.

1665
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:08,040
Do you know how they could have
made-up that shortfall if

1666
01:07:08,040 --> 01:07:10,600
schools were may be funded
properly for, you know, at least

1667
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:12,960
half of the last 20 years rather
than one of them?

1668
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:15,360
That that's the irony of it.
Or I know that wasn't Labour in

1669
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:17,760
power that whole time.
It was the Tories defunding

1670
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:19,160
education and ruining this
country.

1671
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:22,840
But still, what they could do
right now alongside this thing

1672
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:26,120
of like, we're Labour and we're
great and we love kids and we're

1673
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:28,240
going to, we're going to fund,
we found this money.

1674
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:30,840
Suddenly we're going to fund
Breakfast Club for everyone,

1675
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:33,120
which is going to cost millions
and millions and millions.

1676
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:36,800
But we couldn't dare to find any
money for the existing problem

1677
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:39,120
that's happened for 20 years.
We're going to fix this new.

1678
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:40,240
One, yeah, but they haven't
even.

1679
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:41,720
This is the thing.
They haven't even funded the

1680
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:43,320
breakfast.
I know it's I'm but like, but

1681
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:46,120
they found some money for it.
So this there is there is a

1682
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:48,400
magic money tree is there
because it exists for this thing

1683
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:50,400
that didn't exist until
literally now.

1684
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:52,400
Yeah.
But it's, it's complicated.

1685
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:54,920
I get that because what they're
saying is this is an investment

1686
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:58,280
because if we invest in this
more parents can do more work

1687
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:00,520
and the economy boost.
So it's it's an investment.

1688
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:03,000
I I like to understand that.
So there's, there's more of a

1689
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:07,400
reason to get more childcare
than there is to fix existing

1690
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:10,000
childcare that doesn't exist.
So there's more, there's,

1691
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:11,360
there's more of a reason to it,
right?

1692
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:14,000
But but I completely agree with
you in that.

1693
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:16,760
Let's OK, so this is a test.
Fine.

1694
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:20,080
OK, So what we need to see here
is then no rolling back of what

1695
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:21,880
you've said for months of how
amazing this would be.

1696
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:24,399
You've been saying this for a
long time as like a key

1697
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:26,319
flagstone thing.
You're so important.

1698
01:08:26,319 --> 01:08:28,240
It's so important.
So now when we come back and

1699
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:31,120
say, Oh my God, we agree, we
just need another 20%.

1700
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:34,880
You can't then say, oh tough,
you can't say, Oh no, we can't

1701
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:36,960
find it anymore.
What you have to do is now say,

1702
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:39,520
look, OK, I trust you then I
trust you schools because you've

1703
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:42,279
done this and you're telling me
that we are this much short.

1704
01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:45,200
Let's make this happen because
do you know what you could do?

1705
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:47,040
Hey, do you know what you could?
Do yeah, go on.

1706
01:08:47,359 --> 01:08:49,359
And it's something that a lot of
people, people don't like

1707
01:08:49,359 --> 01:08:51,680
hearing.
You could raise some taxes.

1708
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:58,560
OK, There is only one way.
OK, But there is only one way to

1709
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:01,760
get more money into the system.
It's to raise taxes.

1710
01:09:02,359 --> 01:09:04,680
Should you raise taxes on
someone earning 30 grand a year?

1711
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:07,040
No.
Should you raise taxes on

1712
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:10,120
someone earning 80 grand a year?
Maybe, but probably not.

1713
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:13,120
Should you raise taxes on
someone earning over 200 grand a

1714
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:14,680
year?
Potentially.

1715
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:16,520
Potentially, yeah.
Could you raise taxes on someone

1716
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:18,479
earning hundreds of millions of
pounds and have a bit of a

1717
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:21,640
wealth tax, which is tricky to
do, granted, I understand that.

1718
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:23,000
Yeah.
But could you try and try and

1719
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:24,279
raise some money in that
respect?

1720
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:26,560
Yeah, you probably could.
You probably could.

1721
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:28,640
That's a whole big discussion
I'm not going to dive into right

1722
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:29,520
now.
I'm going to leave it at.

1723
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:31,720
That what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is people want

1724
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:34,240
something for nothing.
So people will complain about

1725
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:38,080
the state of the NHS, the state
of education system, but then

1726
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:40,240
they will outright refuse to pay
any more taxes.

1727
01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:42,680
Yeah, OK.
Where do you think the money's?

1728
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:45,840
Going to come from I mean yeah,
yeah, I agree I'm not going to

1729
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:48,279
be betted too much into this or
the one the one easy counter

1730
01:09:48,279 --> 01:09:50,520
argument to that I suppose not
even a counter argument is that

1731
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:53,319
it it would be nice to maybe see
not not so much of the money

1732
01:09:53,319 --> 01:09:56,200
being lost to fraud and.
Yeah, completely just being, but

1733
01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:59,200
I think I think it's a bit
sometimes hung as a carrot of we

1734
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:00,920
can't possibly do this because
this thing exists.

1735
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:03,600
Yeah, yeah, yeah, OK.
But that's also I agree that

1736
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:05,920
should be fixed, right.
But there's a reason why it

1737
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:08,960
hasn't in 40-50 years, because
it's not as simple as just

1738
01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:11,240
saying I'll get the fraudsters.
No, they're fraudsters.

1739
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:12,040
It's hard to.
Forget.

1740
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:14,040
It's like saying we're gonna get
rid of crime.

1741
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:15,280
Yeah, exactly.
So no, you're not.

1742
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:17,480
The criminals will always adapt.
It's like it's.

1743
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:20,320
Like why should I buy ice cream
if the ice cream thief is

1744
01:10:20,320 --> 01:10:22,360
getting ice cream for free?
Why don't you go after the ice

1745
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:23,600
cream thief?
Because I try.

1746
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:26,000
We are the criminals.
Still are, it's just that they

1747
01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:27,880
adapt their.
Ways of doing it let's put the

1748
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:29,760
ice cream up a bit more by.
Getting ice cream when people

1749
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:32,360
see like tax evasion is like the
literal biggest bleed of money

1750
01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:34,280
in this entire country.
You just think, can we just

1751
01:10:34,440 --> 01:10:37,360
crack down on that by like 1%
more instead of I get it, they

1752
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:39,840
are doing that as well, but the
whole tax thing is a whole a

1753
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:41,400
whole nother conversation
anyway.

1754
01:10:41,440 --> 01:10:42,560
I'm not.
Yeah, I'm not going to go into.

1755
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:44,120
That one, just thought I'd sneak
that in there a little bit.

1756
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:46,360
But yeah, Bridget said Bridget
Phillips and said it's just a

1757
01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:47,520
test.
We'll see what works.

1758
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:48,760
Hopefully they do react.
To it.

1759
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:50,120
Let's just hope I'll finish with
this.

1760
01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:53,360
Let's just hope that I've got
the tiniest bit of hope left

1761
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:54,640
now.
It's really been diminished by

1762
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,040
the previous bit about her that
she doesn't come back to all

1763
01:10:57,040 --> 01:10:59,040
this.
And when schools say this is a

1764
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:01,560
really good idea that we've now
got put in place, but you've not

1765
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:04,000
quite funded it correctly, let's
hope that she doesn't come back

1766
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:07,160
and say, I would urge you all,
I'd urge you all not to worry

1767
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:09,360
about the funding.
Find the budget in existing

1768
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:11,400
budgets because we put the
children first.

1769
01:11:11,440 --> 01:11:13,240
Yeah, it's indefensible.
Why don't you put the children

1770
01:11:13,240 --> 01:11:15,120
first rather than worrying about
the extra budget?

1771
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:17,040
How about you cut back on the
avocado and toast?

1772
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:18,160
You're going to turn into one of
those.

1773
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:19,920
You know what I mean?
No one's having avocado toast

1774
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:21,360
anymore.
Bridget Phillips went to school.

1775
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:22,880
We're all, we're eating nothing.
We're just eating.

1776
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:23,920
Scraps, cornflakes about the
milk.

1777
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:26,120
We've got nothing left.
Don't have the milk anymore.

1778
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:26,800
Come on.
Yeah.

1779
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:29,200
Yeah, absolutely.
Don't gaslight teachers and say

1780
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:31,520
put children first ever.
It's disgusting.

1781
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:33,120
There's no defence for.
It's not a mistake.

1782
01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:35,880
It's horrible language.
You're the education secretary.

1783
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:39,880
You're on our side.
Stop it, stop it, stop it.

1784
01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:41,760
Break time.
You'll be at break time.

1785
01:11:42,440 --> 01:11:43,880
Your your break.
You're wasting.

1786
01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:46,640
Yours as well be yours.
Yeah, teachers don't want to

1787
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:48,040
break time.
Guys, if you've got this file

1788
01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:50,760
leaves a review right, You don't
they start to be down this way.

1789
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:53,000
We're telling Bridget Phillips
in this your own time, you're

1790
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:54,680
wasting.
We've started this part talking

1791
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:56,120
about talking to Rishi,
remember?

1792
01:11:56,480 --> 01:11:57,560
Yeah.
He's now an avid listener,

1793
01:11:57,560 --> 01:11:59,600
obviously.
Listen, ever since I don't know,

1794
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:01,840
he's up so much, probably living
all that money that he.

1795
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:03,360
Probably, yeah.
Probably.

1796
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:05,040
Yeah.
It's weird that because he earns

1797
01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:08,520
millions of pounds and and pays
about 20% tax and I pay about 40

1798
01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:10,360
something percent tax.
So it's odd that isn't it.

1799
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:11,880
Maybe we could raise tax on
stuff.

1800
01:12:11,880 --> 01:12:13,000
I don't know.
I don't know, maybe not.

1801
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:15,360
They might leave the country,
all right.

1802
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:17,080
Please.
Yeah, anyway, okay.

1803
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:19,800
Right, let's finish up there.
Yeah, that's how long this

1804
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:21,440
episode is very long.
Bye.