Ep 103: How To Inspire Children Through Science: A Chat With Maddie Moate

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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to another episode of Teaching

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Repeat.
My name is Dylan.

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And my name is Hayden.
How you doing, Hayden?

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I'm all good, mate.
How are you?

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I'm fantastic.
I'm great.

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We're halfway through time four
and we're heading towards

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Easter.
Everyone knows Easter's a longer

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break.
I don't know.

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There's something about
understanding that's on the

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horizon that is kind of getting
me through this term you wanted

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to talk about.
Something, I mean, that's linked

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to what I want.
I want to have a bit of a not a

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moan necessarily, but it's like
a moan, moan on this moan.

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What's there to moan about?
Teaching how?

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Could you moan?
Workload, I moaned about that.

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So I don't know.
I just I don't is this a

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phenomenon?
It is.

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It's a phenomenon in all
schools, right?

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Where I feel like workload is
already pretty much maxed out,

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isn't it?
This is teaching is not a job

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where you're like we had a
couple of easy weeks.

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Yeah, couple of easy weeks just
came in today didn't have any

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work on No one called in like it
doesn't doesn't work like that.

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It's just always completely full
on.

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Your workload is maxed out and
your directed time is maxed out

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and you're doing 10 hours extra
every week anyway.

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But sometimes I just find myself
so stressed because three things

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will just happen at once and it
wasn't even anyone's fault.

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Like so basically, for example,
like in our school right now,

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I'm in year 6.
We're just about to do next week

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or this week when you're
listening our mock week, because

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our like official mock SATS week
because it's SATS are coming up.

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We're also just happened to be
on our like in our cycle of

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writing.
We're doing an independent right

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this week, which which comes
with a massive amount of

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marking, as you know.
So that's all this week.

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Oh, and we have one of our
twilight staff meetings this

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week as well.
So one of our twilight they go

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to half 5 S one of our days.
I'm not going to get any marking

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done anything, any assessments
or independent rights because

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we're going to be sat in a staff
meeting for two hours.

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And I look at that and I'm just
Ann this parents meeting next

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week.
Well, no company in a couple of

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weeks.
And I'm like, how was that?

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How is this OK?
Like in any other job ever, I

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feel like there'd be some sort
of protocol where it's like, Oh

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no, we don't do that because,
you know, we don't pay staff to

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just work another 12 hours this
week.

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But that doesn't happen so.
Or it does happen and because I

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think there'll be lots of people
listening in different

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professions who are thinking,
oh, no, this happens.

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We have really busy times of the
year.

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Of course we do.
But but usually with that, maybe

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it's more hands on deck, maybe
it's paid over time, maybe it's

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well, I physically can't get
this done.

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So a bit more forward planning
as to as to try and spread

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things out.
But I do, I do think play

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devil's advocate slightly here.
I do think in many jobs you do

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have peaks and troughs.
I think the biggest problem

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you're pointer to here, perhaps
for people to understand this is

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teaching.
Very rarely has that through.

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Yeah, that is what I'm saying.
We're already at that peak

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constantly, constantly there.
We can't do any more.

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It's mad.
If anything, we just need to

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take things away.
Like that's how you know that.

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I don't know.
I just look at that and I'm

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like, I look at my workload this
week, right?

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And I'm like, it's completely,
completely, unreasonably

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unmanageable.
Completely.

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Why?
Why?

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Just to explain to people then
just to flesh this out a bit,

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because I can completely see
what you mean here, but I'm

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looking at it thinking, OK,
you've got mock sats, doesn't

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that that must mean much less
planning to do and, and the

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marking you would have done
anyway.

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Is it just replaced with
assessment marking or, or is

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there more to that?
And with the twilight, sure,

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that's that's one extra hour
because you would have had a

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staff meeting anyway.
My question to you is, could you

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maybe just lay out how much
extra work you think that's

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actually going to cause you?
Because I think there might be a

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lot of people in SLT and
especially you're talking about

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article right now.
I do not believe for one second

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anyone has.
Malicious.

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No.
No, I haven't.

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I'm going to, I'm going to top
load this.

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So just explain from the
teacher's point of view then

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being completely honest, how is
that affecting your week?

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Then what's going to have to
give?

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So all those things
individually, it's kind of like,

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yeah, they're not so bad.
And you know what?

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I have independent rights every
three weeks anyway.

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It's not like this is suddenly a
new thing.

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My only point here is that it's
like, I don't mind doing the odd

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big thing maybe once a week, but
when there's three of them that

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happened at the same time, a bit
like, oh, that's just mad now,

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do you know what I mean?
Yeah, we have twilight sponsor

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term.
They're OK on their own.

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We have assessment weeks.
Most terms, they're all right by

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themselves.
It does come with more marking.

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Yeah, a little bit less
planning.

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We're still planning for like
this only takes like one or two

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or maybe 3 of the lessons of the
week.

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We've still got a plan the rest
of the week.

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And I've got a plan for next
week as well.

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I've got that on top of this
week, but the marking is insane.

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Like marking assessments.
I just happen to have two sets

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where I actually have 32 kids in
both because we have different

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sets across our school.
Some teachers have a smaller

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set, they just happen to have
less tests to mark.

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I've got loads of tests to mark.
It will take me about 3 or 4

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times longer than it would do to
mark a lesson.

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Sure.
And then we do sort of gap

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analysis, we do all sorts of
data analysis, input, all this

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stuff.
It just takes forever.

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And my problem is only that how
has this all come together at

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one at once?
Because what I'm not going to do

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now is, is, is all of that work
in one week?

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It has to get spread out.
So if there's a deadline that,

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oh, we need the writing mark by
next week and the assessment

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data needs to be in next week as
well.

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Oh, and also you can't do any of
it on Wednesday because you've

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got this long staff meeting.
I'll just be like, OK, no,

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fortunately our school's pretty
cool.

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And I'll just be able to say
this now be like, oh, yeah,

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that's crazy.
Well, let's spread it over.

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But I just, I feel bad because I
know this happens in other

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schools.
Honestly, all the time.

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Yeah, all the time.
And that would just be like,

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yeah, get it done, get it done.
And people will sacrifice that

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whole weekend for it.
What would you say to someone?

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Because we, I did, I did a post
this week on on Tiktok and

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Instagram about just just very
much going into detail like we

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did recently into our conditions
and our in that pay document as

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to directed time and additional
hours and a few of the comments,

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we're basically saying, yeah,
yeah, you're absolutely right.

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But like, it's got to get the
teachers sometimes just need to

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grow a backbone.
Like it was almost, it was

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almost digging teachers out the
opposite way.

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We asked some people are lazy
teachers not doing anything.

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Well, this was the opposite in
terms of they were saying no.

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Do you know what the teachers
fault?

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Sometimes they need to stand up
and say no.

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Where do you stand on that kind
of opinion?

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Because I found myself agreeing,
but also thinking it was really

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unhelpful.
And I think that there's there's

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ways to talk to teachers to, to
lessen this.

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So imagine now you're talking to
someone listening to this who's

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in a very similar situation to
what you find yourself in this

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week.
What would you say to them as to

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how to mitigate this, where
they're just gonna end up

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spending another six hours,
having no evenings and

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sacrificing a day of the weekend
to get this done because they

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feel they have to?
What would you say to them?

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I'd say if you're a team, so if
you're working in more than A1

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form entry and it's not just you
doing this, if you're working in

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a team, you need to just talk to
your team and all accept that

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this, this is an unreasonable
amount of workload to do.

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Let's all agree on the actual
actions we're going to take.

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Because what, where it falls
down is you've got four members

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of staff doing this.
Two members of staff are like,

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Oh, yeah, this is crazy.
I'm not doing that.

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I'm not I've, you know, I've
got, I've got plans this

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evenings and weekends.
So they want the data next week.

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I won't have to wait another
week because I can't literally

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do it.
And then there'll be, there'll

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be other two teachers who are
like, Oh, yeah, I'll just work.

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I'll cancel all my plans.
I'll work every evening and, and

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the entire weekend and get it
done.

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And then we all come in on
Monday.

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I've done all of it and you
haven't.

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That's when it falls down
because it looks bad.

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You need a bit of collective
action, right?

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Because then advice.
Yeah, yeah.

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Go on, no SLT, think at that .0
that's acceptable.

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Then you're just being lazy.
Yeah, exactly that.

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But if you're a 14 entry school,
then yeah, yeah, it's hard.

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The whole backbone thing.
It's trickier because you're on

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your own now.
You've got you've got to stand

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up for yourself.
But in a team, particularly, I

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would say, come on, think as a
team, let's all agree on what's

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actually acceptable to get done.
We're all going to do extra

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work.
We're not pretend we're not

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doing extra work.
Let's just give it a bit more of

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a time frame, OK?
We're going to mark the

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independent rights this week.
Next week.

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We haven't got an independent
right or twilight, so we will,

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you know, mark those assessments
and we'll just push back the

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deadline by a week.
That's why I would want to see

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as a team, but I don't think in
most schools, I don't think

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you'd see that in most places.
What I like about what you said

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there is and I think it's quite
powerful as teachers is is is

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just pointing out to people that
you're not saying no to doing it

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like you're you're not saying
no.

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You understand that Twilight CPD
is really important.

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Yeah.
You understand that doing this

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assessment, mock mock exam for
the children is really

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important.
And you also understand that

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that that independent writing is
really important coming up to

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moderation.
And what all you're what you're

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saying here is like, let's let's
rejig, rejig this.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Let's not.

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We always say to people,
sometimes the solution is to not

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do it.
Let's be really clear.

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We mean things like displays,
think things you understand

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don't really have an impact.
But as a professional, you're

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sitting here saying, no, no, I
get all of this.

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We, we do this for a reason.
I actually agree with doing

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everything.
You're not saying let's not do

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any of it.
You're just saying, OK, now

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we've agreed we need to do it.
Let's be reasonable.

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Yeah, yeah.
I'm just saying can we spread it

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out?
That's all I'm saying.

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Be reasonable.
Like it annoys me when it like,

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come on.
Like, come on, well, surely we

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can plan ahead and not make sure
this doesn't happen.

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So oh, well done.
You've done all this work,

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you've got staff, you've got
parents evenings next week.

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It's like, oh man, so I've got
another heavy.

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Week, you know, it's just it's.
Just a bit of a pain, a bit of a

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gripe.
It's one of those things it

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happens, but I wish it didn't.
Anyway, how's your week been?

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Yeah, good.
I guess looking back on my week,

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rather uneventful in terms of
things happening.

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Just felt like AI don't want to
say normal week when you're in

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school, it's never a normal
week, but it felt like it just

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kind of breathed by nicely
children.

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You feel like at this point of
the year, I do feel like you

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really do start seeing that
progress with them where you've

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embedded so much, whether it's
academically or socially or just

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them behaving themselves.
It feels like it's coming

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together, which is really nice.
It's the part of the year where

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interventions become really
acute, I think.

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So the idea of interventions,
anyone listening is not sure

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what I'm talking about.
That is targeting a group of

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children who still don't quite
grasp something with that.

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You think by the end of the year
they really should and maybe

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they're not quite getting there
alone.

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Just in the lessons we've talked
about interventions a lot.

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I think there is a ceiling to
how useful they are.

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I think we do a lot of maths, a
lot of English especially, and

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sometimes doing an extra 20-30
minutes doesn't really help that

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much, especially if it's at the
sacrifice of maybe taking them

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out of a history lesson.
I do still think that feels

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wrong.
But I, what I would say is I've

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been doing some interventions,
short sharp interventions

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instead of grouped with
children, but doing them on

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their own.
And I just want to talk about

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that difference now, because I
think traditionally I've done a

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lot of interventions where you
group together four to six

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children.
That's 426, not 46.

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That'll be quite a lot.
And you work with them maybe for

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half an hour and you've grouped
them because maybe they're a bit

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weaker and they're arithmetic.
And you think, OK, well, today

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we're going to look at some
fractions.

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You work as a group.
And even even when it's four to

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six, one or two kind of get it
for three to four kind of don't.

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And there's, there's still that
it doesn't feel like the best

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00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:51,920
use of that child's time because
they've missed half an yeah,

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00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,640
yeah, yeah.
So what I've swapped it to is

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00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,880
doing intervention with the same
children, but instead of doing

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00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,560
40 minutes with a group of four,
I'm doing 10 minutes per child

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00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:05,000
individually, 1 to one, one to
one, right.

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So they come to me, if I look at
their most recent assessment, I

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look where their gaps are, I see
if it was a mistake, where they

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just made a mistake, but they
can do it, I'll move on

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immediately.
Or if it's something I really

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don't understand, I then
immediately can say to some

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00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,360
call, this is how you do it,
let's practise it, practise it,

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00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,600
practise it and target exactly
what that child can't do.

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And I guess my opinion having
done that is that that is

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incredibly powerful.
But then of course of the time.

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00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,880
They are getting 1/4 of the
time, but every single minute is

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00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:37,840
bespoke to exactly what they
need.

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So you're saying that a 1/4 of
the time bespoke is actually

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genuinely better and you get
more out of it than doing 4

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00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:45,600
times an length of time?
But they're not the only child

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00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,920
getting that.
I, I think in many situations in

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00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,560
this situation right now where,
where, where we're plugging

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00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,840
specific gaps, I think there
comes a point where the one to

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00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,160
one is more powerful.
I think maybe towards the start

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00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:58,800
of the year when you're
introducing someone for the

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00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:00,920
first time, maybe you're doing
some pre teaching, maybe you're

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00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:02,800
going over some year 3
objectives if you're in year 4.

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00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,040
Now I think there, I'm not
saying let's get rid of group

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00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,800
interventions whatsoever.
I think there's a really big

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00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,240
drive and I think group work is
very powerful and can be amazing

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00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,720
and has so many pros.
All I'm saying is I think we

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00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,560
should be open to understanding
in school that a one to one

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00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:22,120
conference almost has a place.
And not only does it have a

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00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,480
place in specific situations,
it's way more powerful.

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00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,320
And and I would say working with
those children, I think at this

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00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,800
point in the year when I'm
plugging gaps, this is more

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00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:32,800
powerful.
Isn't it funny?

295
00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,080
So how could where teachings
been so like saturated by like

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00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,360
you have to be ticking off 900
boxes at a time, right?

297
00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,200
That there's a, there's a part
of me that's like 01 to 1

298
00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:44,800
though.
Oh, I don't know, because

299
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:46,440
that's, you're using up a lot of
time there.

300
00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,240
You're only having one kid when
you could be helping 2, you

301
00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,720
could be helping maybe even 30.
We're so used to like the idea

302
00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,160
that, oh, and you've got to,
you've got to be doing more

303
00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:56,920
going to be more effective.
You've got to be having more and

304
00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,320
more more.
And it's kind of become, oh, the

305
00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:00,960
more kid you have at once, the
more effective it is.

306
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:02,280
And you're kind of challenging
that really.

307
00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,040
And saying actually I found that
I can have a bigger impact doing

308
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,600
1 to one in some of this time.
It's interesting, cost effective

309
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,320
to impact and I think sometimes
it's it's cost effective to do

310
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,920
group dimensions and group work
and also has a better impact.

311
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,600
I do think there's, I do think
there's plenty of reasons why

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00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,960
you should still do that.
All I'm saying is let's not

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00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,000
completely shut the door to the
one to one thinking, oh, it's

314
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,680
too expensive for a school.
We can't possibly justify a

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00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:28,320
specialist teacher with one
child.

316
00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:29,800
No, no, we absolutely can
actually.

317
00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,240
And I think in this situation it
works really well.

318
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:33,560
Yeah, brilliant.
Well, thank you for that.

319
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,880
I mean, in a minute, we're going
to talk to Maddie MO.

320
00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:37,960
And before we do that, I just
want to get a really quick

321
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:39,640
understanding of what we feel
about this because we're going

322
00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:41,040
to be talking about STEM
subjects.

323
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,560
She's like the STEM, the STEM
lady, like she's expert, you

324
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:47,080
know what I mean to go to.
And obviously we work in primary

325
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:48,800
schools, She doesn't work in a
primary school.

326
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,600
So it'd just be interesting to
get our kind of thoughts on STEM

327
00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:52,960
subjects because I'm going to
start with this.

328
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,360
Obviously STEM is science,
technology, engineering and

329
00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,440
maths seems a bit weird because
maths is almost like a, we all

330
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,080
do maths to death, but the
science and engineering and

331
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,560
technology and where's that sort
of stand?

332
00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:07,800
And science used to be in the
end of year 6, like the SAT

333
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:09,840
exam, there used to be a science
test that would have been when

334
00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,560
we were children.
So we can talk about that in a

335
00:13:11,560 --> 00:13:14,000
minute.
And in 2009 they took that out.

336
00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,960
Yet data seems to have, like we
still do teacher assessment at

337
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:20,360
the end of the year.
I have to put in a teacher

338
00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,520
assessment for all the kids in
my class for how they get on

339
00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,280
with science.
Data has remained, you know, if

340
00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,920
anything, it's gone up.
We've seen on average about 80%

341
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,000
of children at the end of each
year are passing their science.

342
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,560
It's just even better than like
maths and English.

343
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:34,600
The national average averages
and maths and English are more

344
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,440
in like the 70s.
So, well, clearly, clearly

345
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,360
taking away the assessment of
science has done really well.

346
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,920
But I feel like, I don't know
about you, but I feel like

347
00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,200
that's not reflected in the
classroom whatsoever.

348
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,240
Like I I feel like science has
absolutely taken a complete

349
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:49,920
backseat.
Yeah, I want.

350
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,720
To rewind a bit to when you said
about STEM, about science,

351
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,720
technology, engineering and
maths, and you're like, well, we

352
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,240
do a lot of maths in school.
I, I still think we're missing a

353
00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,720
huge chunk of what STEM really
should be, which is applied

354
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:02,640
maths, right?
I think a lot of what we do just

355
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,440
so people listening, thinking,
Oh yeah, they do the maths.

356
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,120
Yeah, we do, we do.
And it's really important in

357
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,440
primary school especially that
we really, you know, get the

358
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,520
fundamentals in place.
But I do think there's not a lot

359
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,840
of opportunity for the children
to apply maths in a real life

360
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,760
situation.
I, I think science takes a back

361
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,960
seat massively.
And this really, this really

362
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:20,920
challenges us, I think.
And I'd love to hear your take

363
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,680
on this because like you said,
we got rid of science as a as a

364
00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:30,360
assessed subject in the SAT end
of year six in 2009, but science

365
00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,640
remained a core subject.
So when we say the core

366
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,200
subjects, we say in English,
maths and science and the rest

367
00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,520
we call foundation subjects.
And there's a clear line.

368
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,520
And do you know what I think
rightly, I think it's OK to put

369
00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,280
maths, English and science on a
pedestal and just say this is

370
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,600
more important because of so
many reasons that we can get

371
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,240
into.
However, we took science out of

372
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,960
the Sats and, and kept it as a
core subject, like I said.

373
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,200
And what has happened then with
science is it became this really

374
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:04,200
weird limbo subject that kind of
floats above importance with

375
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,800
history and geography and art
and etcetera.

376
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:07,840
So it's more important than
that.

377
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,880
But oh, I work in a school and
data's really important and my

378
00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,120
school's going to be judged on
the SAT results and science.

379
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,720
Oh, it's not, it's not an
assessed thing anymore.

380
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:17,560
It's.
Really important though, right?

381
00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:18,840
It's.
Very important, but it's not,

382
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,880
it's not assessed anymore.
So talk to any teacher who's

383
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,640
been doing it since 2009 or
previously, and throughout this

384
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,280
whole change, they will tell you
that the amount of science going

385
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,600
on in school has reduced.
Yeah, definitely, definitely.

386
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,480
And when you match that up with,
oh, the, the, the scores and the

387
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,720
teacher assessment is actually
gone up and somehow our results

388
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,000
are better in science, but we're
doing less of it in school.

389
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,560
It really challenges my opinion
of, or the opinion I hear of

390
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,400
getting rid of the Sats
completely because in having got

391
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,480
rid of science assessment it, it
feels like the importance of it

392
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,680
and the amount of emphasis on it
in schools has reduced

393
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,760
massively.
And then by just saying teacher

394
00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,920
assessment comes into it, it's
easier for us to tick boxes and

395
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,280
say well yes, we did this, we
did that and you're expected.

396
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,240
Where do you land on that?
Because how does it make you

397
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,120
feel about English and maths
being assessed?

398
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,120
Well, because it's assessed, it
seems to be more important.

399
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,480
Should we bring back more
assessment or do you still

400
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:15,120
think?
This is where I feel like a bit

401
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,720
of a hypocrite, OK, because I'm
all for like we need to.

402
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:19,680
I'm constantly saying on this
podcast that we should trust

403
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:20,840
teachers.
Like we're professionals, for

404
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:22,360
Christ's sake.
Trust us, trust us.

405
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:23,880
Why do we have so many like
Ofsted?

406
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:25,240
When we talk about Ofsted, like
just trust us.

407
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,000
We know what we're doing.
But then when it comes to

408
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,280
teacher assessments, it's like,
oh, but writing and science seem

409
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,760
always really, really high and
they're teacher assessments and

410
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:34,760
like, way higher.
Than so we're not tested for

411
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,360
anyone any ambiguity here.
Children are not assessed in

412
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,720
terms of a test in writing and
science.

413
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,800
Science, they are teacher
assessed only.

414
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,000
So there is way more freedom for
the teacher to just at the end

415
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,320
of the year put down what those,
what the children are in those

416
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,560
two subjects.
And I just think it gets bodged.

417
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,320
I really do.
I, I'm not saying everyone does

418
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,280
that, but I do think on average,
I think the scores are higher

419
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,160
than than reality.
Writing gets bodged.

420
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,680
Writing gets bodged always.
I know it does.

421
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,920
I literally know I've worked in
this game for 10 years.

422
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,960
I could I could tell you like 50
people or schools I know of

423
00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:08,760
where I literally know they've
watched it.

424
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:10,560
Right.
And the same as science, science

425
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:11,960
is even easier.
There's not even a moderation

426
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:13,920
like science at the end of the
year is honestly just did your

427
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,480
kids get it or not?
Yes or no, Honestly, that is it

428
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,880
like it's like a just one sheet
that you do.

429
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,560
So there's part of me where I'm
like, Oh yeah, I'm not

430
00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:23,599
surprised.
I'm not surprised we have assess

431
00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:27,400
assessments because like
teachers, some teachers will

432
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,880
fake the data.
Well, not even some, it's just

433
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,600
systemic in terms of if we see
ourselves being judged so

434
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,720
harshly on something, why would
we do ourselves a disservice and

435
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,960
say, actually, no, there's
there's an argument to say that

436
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,040
you know, on, in a, on a test,
in a test environment, a child

437
00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:42,920
might not portray everything
they know when it comes to

438
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:44,360
English and maths.
How many children have we seen

439
00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:48,240
before who as a teacher we would
without bodging rightly say, oh,

440
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,240
they are solid in maths, they
are expected, they're where they

441
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,120
should be.
On my teacher assessment I'm not

442
00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:53,920
bodging anything because it
doesn't go anywhere but I just

443
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,560
know this child is expected.
Oh my gosh, I got their such

444
00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:58,280
result.
They bombed on the day they.

445
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,880
Only got a 98 standardised score
which puts them as working

446
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:02,480
towards despite being so close,
right?

447
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,120
And that's where people would
say, well, maybe it's not being

448
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:07,240
bodged, maybe it's got higher
because actually the test is a

449
00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,600
bad way of testing them.
Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is

450
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,800
I don't know the answer.
And the only thing coming full

451
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,760
circle, maybe before we talk to
Maddie about this.

452
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,040
And again, Maddie's this person
who's so passionate about

453
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:23,800
sharing curiosity and and
getting children to think and

454
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,040
figure out and and go and find
out how stuff works.

455
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,440
Like her literal book is called
How Does It Work?

456
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,920
You know, she's going to talk
about her book she's written for

457
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:37,560
children.
I I am so, so, so sure that we

458
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:42,880
are not allowing our children
that ability to show curiosity

459
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,680
and have child LED learning and
finding things out

460
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,520
scientifically in the classroom
that has gone.

461
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,960
That does not exist.
It exists, OK, It exists in some

462
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,000
schools really well.
Some teacher be like I do that.

463
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,440
Yeah, sure.
But on the whole, Oh my

464
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,320
goodness, we've moved to such a
knowledge.

465
00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:58,880
Base.
It's boring, it's been pushed

466
00:18:58,880 --> 00:18:59,480
out.
It's boring.

467
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:00,920
It's boring, boring, boring,
boring, boring.

468
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,240
The site, you know most science
schemes now it's all about How

469
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:05,840
much can you remember about
these facts?

470
00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,000
Yeah, honestly, there it is.
You get the OK and, and do you

471
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,360
know what?
On the other side of it, there's

472
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:12,160
also no money.
So I'm not surprised.

473
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,000
There's schemes that have come
in for schools, where schools

474
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,320
are like, hey, we need to teach
science.

475
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,640
We've had absolutely no budget
for literally anything.

476
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,080
But can we try and make it as
interesting as possible where we

477
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:21,680
can't, where we don't actually
get to do anything fun?

478
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,080
So loads of schemes can come and
be like, OK, cool.

479
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,320
Our schemes really cheap, by the
way, and you don't need all of

480
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,000
this equipment and stuff that
you don't already have because

481
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,680
it'd be impossible otherwise.
So here's a scheme where we just

482
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,600
focus on these other things and
we and you know, you don't have.

483
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:33,840
Yeah, OK, we're just going to do
it.

484
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,080
We're just going to do a science
lesson and they're just going to

485
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:37,880
write in their books and they
can read something from this

486
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:39,480
textbook.
It's really cheap and they'll

487
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,920
learn something about science.
It's got so boring.

488
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,800
And there's a piece of paper
there and it says this is the

489
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,760
definition of what a particle
is, and isn't that cool that we

490
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:47,120
know what particles are?
Do you know what Do you know

491
00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:48,440
what is cool for a primary
school kid?

492
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,680
It's just to ask really
interesting questions about

493
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,720
things and experiment the stuff
and just see what happens.

494
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,320
And then as the teacher, answer
questions as you go.

495
00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,480
I did that as a kid.
I actually remember.

496
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,440
I still remember so well and
I've got a terrible memory, so

497
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,760
this must have been good.
I remember doing this science

498
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,240
session where we were like.
We had loads of test tubes and

499
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:08,680
all of these like these people
actually came in.

500
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,280
I think it was like a little
like a event course thing they

501
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,400
did.
And we were just like, we had

502
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,720
lab coats on.
It was a really like cringey

503
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,720
cliche.
And we had these little test

504
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,960
tubes and vials and we were
putting liquids in and mixing

505
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:21,400
things and they were doing fun
things.

506
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,560
And some of them made like gases
and they smelled and they were

507
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,200
like, oh, if you tap the bottom,
you can really like make it.

508
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:27,800
You can make it start reacting a
bit more.

509
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,600
And we were like, experiment.
I was like, this is the funniest

510
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:30,520
thing I've ever done in my whole
life.

511
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:31,840
Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop,
stop, stop.

512
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:33,120
Sorry, have you got your book
out?

513
00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:34,760
I'm writing down the definition
of particle.

514
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:37,640
Oh, it's not science, I'm
afraid, because I can't then

515
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,000
prove that you know what a
particle is.

516
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,000
And then my science teacher
probably the next day, I

517
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,000
imagine, will then use that as a
hook and be like, Oh yeah, what

518
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:43,920
are you doing yesterday, by the
way?

519
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:45,920
This is the actual learning.
And I was super into it.

520
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,360
But on top of that, like with DT
and stuff, I don't want to talk

521
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:50,720
to Maddie in a second.
But like all of it STEM subjects

522
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,760
when I was a kid engineering
felt way more I I did them.

523
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,960
And, and we did stuff.
Did it feel like it mattered too

524
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,360
much in the moment as a primary
school child specifically that

525
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:02,960
you couldn't like turn around
and say to someone this is

526
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,840
engineering because of that?
And of course, because you

527
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:06,920
didn't care, you were doing it
without.

528
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,720
We, I remember we made slippers
in Year 5.

529
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,760
And that, yeah, made slippers.
I remember we made a remote

530
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:18,400
control car basically in year 6.
But I remember this stuff and

531
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,880
it's vivid to me.
And I remember things about I

532
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,040
can make something.
Do you know what?

533
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,400
I'm going to make a car.
And as I'm making the car and I

534
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,840
say, wait, what makes this motor
turn?

535
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,640
Let's talk about it.
Stored energy.

536
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,760
Why is mine falling apart?
Well, actually if you use right

537
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,800
angles and triangles, you make
stronger structures about this.

538
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,680
OK, cool, I get that now.
That completely makes because

539
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,360
I'm using it practically right
now in real life.

540
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,960
What we have, what we have is
it's children in front of us who

541
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,360
are the most curious people I've
ever met in my life.

542
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,280
And what I, what I find is we,
we are not harnessing that

543
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:50,840
enough.
And This is why I'm so excited

544
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,480
to talk to Maddie.
Maddie has presented shows on

545
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,240
CBB.
She's done work with the BBC

546
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,160
before.
She has her own YouTube channel

547
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:01,040
where she explains how things
work, but not only not only in a

548
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,640
way which links to the
curriculum and teachers can find

549
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,800
really useful, but also in a way
say that actually just children

550
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:07,920
on their own.
Like me.

551
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,640
When I was a young boy, I would
click on that video and be

552
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,800
engrossed by it.
I would be completely engrossed

553
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,320
by you showing me science and
doing things and just finding

554
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,080
things out and inspiring me to
move on.

555
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,120
And I get way more inspiration
from that then I think children

556
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:26,520
in the classroom do when they're
doing a boring science lesson.

557
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:27,640
Do you know what I think we
should do right now?

558
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,680
What should we do right now?
I think it's time that we should

559
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,840
just go and talk to Maddie and
get her thoughts and feelings on

560
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:33,920
this subject.
Let's do it.

561
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,680
I am delighted to introduce the
BAFTA award-winning BBC

562
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,960
Children's TV presenter, Olivier
Prize nominated West End

563
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,760
superstar YouTube
extraordinaire, over 300,000

564
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,760
subscribers who now today is
striking her best achievement

565
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,200
ever, which is being a guest on
a THC repeat podcast.

566
00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:55,360
We've got Maddie MO Welcome
Maddie.

567
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:58,200
Hello.
Thank you so much for having me.

568
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,760
No, thank you.
And I did see a little sneak

569
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,640
peek there.
Then we yeah, because we do

570
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,680
record this podcast if you're
watching a little bit of a

571
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:05,800
treat.
Well, I've actually got

572
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,720
something for both of you.
I'm here to present you with the

573
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:14,960
best podcast in the world, 2025,
a very your very own BAFTA.

574
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:16,560
There you go that.
Is fantastic for those.

575
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,760
I'm just covering the bass,
which is my name on it, but

576
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:20,960
that's, yeah.
We'll just like scribble that

577
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,160
bit out.
The kids are good at that, so.

578
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,160
We'll do that.
And I would like to say for

579
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,400
everybody watching, this was not
my you.

580
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,640
Have to get it listen.
Listen, we we logged on and you

581
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:31,640
had your BAFTA in the
background.

582
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:32,600
We were just like Maddie.
Come on.

583
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,080
Stop it.
Stop it.

584
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:37,720
No, I didn't.
We, we requested that that's

585
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:39,160
fine.
How are you doing anyway,

586
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:39,720
Maddie?
Because.

587
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:40,680
Really good.
Thank you.

588
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:41,680
It must be pretty good.
Right now.

589
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,560
Yeah, it's a really busy time of
year, and March always is,

590
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,120
actually.
And I think that's true for a

591
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:49,680
lot of science communicators
because it's science week.

592
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,440
And I think everybody sort of
like, kicked into gear after,

593
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,640
you know, a slow start when
everyone's sort of like, putting

594
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,080
things into action.
And March suddenly feels where

595
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,600
everything's going again.
The sun's out.

596
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,480
People are doing things.
So yeah, March always feels like

597
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,640
a pretty busy time.
Well, thank you for joining us.

598
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:07,640
Really what I want to dive into
before we talk about your

599
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,360
amazing achievements like your
book, I really want to talk

600
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:11,280
about your book a little bit
later because that's coming out

601
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,240
well for our listeners.
It'll be out right now.

602
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,040
But before we talk about that, I
want to dive into you a little

603
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,040
bit more and just, and just
explore how you became who you

604
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,200
are now because you've been in
this game for a long time.

605
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,320
So I'd really just like to know
how did you end up in this

606
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,120
position?
Like what's the what's the life

607
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:28,920
story here?
Gosh, that's a good question.

608
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:30,920
It's always a hard one to know
when to start.

609
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:34,440
So I'll kind of give you the
like the the short notes version

610
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,640
and then like tell me if you
want me to elaborate on

611
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,760
anything.
But I would say so as a kid, I

612
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,880
really loved both science and
drama.

613
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:49,000
If I'm going to sort of like use
subjects if you like, and had

614
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,680
always taken part in school
plays and I've been interested

615
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,320
in dance lessons and I've done a
whole bunch of extracurricular

616
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,600
drama stuff.
But I loved science.

617
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,880
But it wasn't something I had
done really outside of school.

618
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:01,800
There weren't any clubs when I
was younger.

619
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,600
I certainly didn't have any role
models.

620
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,000
And when it came to, you know,
being still really a very, very

621
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,160
young, young person at what, 16,
I think you have to make.

622
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,560
I had to make my choices as to
what I wanted to do for the rest

623
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,520
of my life.
I was sort of stuck a little bit

624
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,240
between deciding whether I
wanted to continue with drama or

625
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:25,120
go for science.
And I decided to pursue drama

626
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,160
when I went to university.
And I think the reason I picked

627
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,280
it was because I already sort of
felt like I was on the ladder

628
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,040
because of all of that
extracurricular stuff that I

629
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,800
had, I had already been been
doing whilst with science.

630
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,680
I didn't understand what a life
would look like as a scientist.

631
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,560
For me as a young woman, it was
very much just, oh, I guess

632
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,120
what?
I wear a lab coat and just hang

633
00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:50,080
around in a lab with old men
with crazy hair.

634
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,120
But that's kind of what it felt
like for me.

635
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,040
It just so happened that
eventually TV companies were

636
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,720
starting to look to YouTube for
new talent.

637
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,960
And CBeebies, a channel who I
now work with, you know, often

638
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,640
they were looking for new
talent.

639
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,440
They didn't want an actor.
They didn't want someone who was

640
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,000
going to dress up or be a
character.

641
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,200
They wanted someone who's just
used to being themselves.

642
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,480
And they found me presenting for
various natural, natural

643
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,720
sciences and tech brands online.
And they asked if I'd be

644
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,080
interested in hosting this new
series called Do You Know?

645
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,600
And reluctantly, I said yes at
first, sorry, reluctantly at

646
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,120
first, I said no because for me
at the time, I was, you know,

647
00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:35,520
I'd been making science and tech
videos at that point for adults

648
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,960
for, you know, nearly sort of
five, 5-6 years.

649
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,960
And my understanding of CBeebies
then was that was that it was

650
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,440
just Mr Tumble and that was it.
Yeah, sure.

651
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,800
And that if I did CBeebies, I
would definitely be.

652
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,440
You need to.
Paint your.

653
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:49,920
Nose red, yeah.
But honestly, I was like, I

654
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,160
don't know, it feels a bit
sugary, a little bit like, or

655
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,840
potentially it patronising for
the kids watching.

656
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,760
But they were really keen to do
something, to do something new

657
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,760
and to have me being me and have
me being out and about in real

658
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,800
places.
So I said yes and it and it was

659
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,880
absolutely the best thing I ever
did.

660
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,040
It totally transformed like my
trajectory in terms of what I do

661
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:18,040
now, which is very much still
focused in science education and

662
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:19,800
talking to people about science
and tech.

663
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,200
I just do it for a younger
audience predominantly.

664
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,160
That wasn't actually a very
short version, so I apologise.

665
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,360
Is that the short version?
I wanna hear the long version.

666
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,080
You did not stop me.
No, I wanna hear everything

667
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,000
because it's really interesting,
because I'll be honest, I'll

668
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,800
level with you, Hayden and I, I
know Hayden did a film degree as

669
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:37,960
well.
Yeah, nice.

670
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,800
And we've both been very
interested in drama before.

671
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:44,240
And I guess what I wanted to ask
you is like, you've kind of

672
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,560
unlocked this power of using
online, let's say, video

673
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,880
creation.
Yeah, to step into the world of

674
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,120
helping younger children as
well.

675
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,120
That's a bridge that is quite
contentious at the minute with

676
00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:59,440
some people in terms of all
screen time for young children.

677
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,680
Yeah, the algorithm wondering
where you land in terms of

678
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,240
harnessing this for good,
because I think Hayden and I

679
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,880
passionately believe that there
is a really good way to use this

680
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,240
technology to help children, but
there's also the dark side of it

681
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,280
where children can kind of go
down a rabbit hole.

682
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,080
That's bad.
So where do you land on that?

683
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:19,600
Honestly, you've tapped into one
of my passion subjects at the

684
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,080
moment and it's something I
don't have a completely clear

685
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,000
answer for.
But you're right.

686
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,680
On one hand, I sit sort of in
the, the camp of the BBCA Lot of

687
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,920
my programming has been with the
BBC over the years.

688
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,440
Although you know, I'm a
freelancer, ultimately I'm not

689
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,880
I'm not.
I don't just work for them, but

690
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,800
the BBC make some of the best,
if not the best children's

691
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,520
content in the world and it is.
You can absolutely trust it.

692
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,560
You know that your children are
going to be safe and you can put

693
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,120
your child in front of CBBS
guilt free and know that they're

694
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,600
going to have a beneficial
experience.

695
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:52,720
But you cannot say the same for
YouTube.

696
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:59,960
However, I am making content for
kids and families on YouTube and

697
00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:03,360
this this sort of the the
YouTube scene is constantly

698
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,920
changing and their rules are
constantly changing as well.

699
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:14,080
But I just try to stay as close
to my public service BBC values

700
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,080
as I possibly can on a platform
that doesn't enforce them.

701
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,440
It's also very hard for YouTube
to enforce them because they

702
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,760
say, you know, we're just a
platform for people to upload

703
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,040
things.
They don't want to take

704
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,840
responsibility for the, for the
content that people are putting

705
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,040
out there.
So it's really hard for them to

706
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,880
sort of decide what isn't, isn't
OK when it comes to kids content

707
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,200
because as soon as they start
making those sort of decisions

708
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,040
and they, they become more of a
broadcaster as opposed to just a

709
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,360
platform.
But there are certain things

710
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:48,120
that I am trying to promote and
not, not on behalf of YouTube

711
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,800
just because I think that kids
these days.

712
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,960
And when I'm saying kids, I'm
talking children under the age

713
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,240
of 13.
I, I don't think personally, you

714
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,120
know, do what you want as
parents and you know, grown-ups,

715
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,960
but I think it's best for
children under 13 not to have

716
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,320
social media accounts.
And I think if they are watching

717
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,000
YouTube, it's best to watch it
in a place that's safe, that you

718
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:15,160
can control and put certain
boundaries around a place where

719
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,160
you can sort of be mindful of
what of what the child is

720
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,760
watching.
And I know that one of the

721
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,000
reasons why both teachers and
parents are reluctant to use

722
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,840
YouTube is because there's just
this scary algorithm that once

723
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,040
it works out what you or your
child wants to watch or likes to

724
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,160
watch, it's just going to show
you it again and again and

725
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,520
again.
And that's not necessarily the

726
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,560
sort of thing you want your,
your, your children to be

727
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,200
watching on repeat.
But if you use the YouTube Kids

728
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:48,520
app, there are ways that you can
set the channels that your child

729
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,040
is able to watch.
So rather than having free reign

730
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,800
of all YouTube, they can have
free reign.

731
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,280
So still like a classic
scrollable experience, but

732
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,920
they're only going to be offered
videos within the channels that

733
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,000
you decide they can watch.
And you can make that as broad

734
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,760
or as sort of like or as niche
as you like.

735
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,880
But I do think that there needs
to be more education.

736
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,720
And I would love to find a way
to make parents more aware of

737
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,080
these boundaries that you can
place within the YouTube Kids

738
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:19,280
app.
So that's something I'm working

739
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,080
on.
It's really, it's a constant

740
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,920
challenge though, because you
can also mark your videos on

741
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,080
YouTube as made for kids, which
is something that I choose to

742
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,200
do.
The problem with that though, is

743
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,640
there's not really any incentive
for Youtubers or creators to do

744
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,720
it, because the moment you do
that, it takes away comments on

745
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,240
the videos.
On one hand, I see why that's

746
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,520
not a bad thing, because it
means that you're not going to

747
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,800
have negativity, bullying or
inappropriate comments for a

748
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,600
child to read.
But equally, it immediately

749
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,200
takes away any form of community
that they could be part of.

750
00:31:54,520 --> 00:32:01,080
And it also takes away their
feeling of, I want to say, just

751
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,600
their ability to be involved.
Yeah, they want to get in touch

752
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,880
with you, don't they?
You could be their idol on

753
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,280
YouTube.
You can be the kind of person

754
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,480
they go to and they can't.
It's kind of just like they

755
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,840
watch it caught out that that's
where YouTube's different to

756
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,280
television, isn't it?
Because you have that

757
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:15,640
connection.
Or you can.

758
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,400
And it's tough because I don't
necessarily think it's healthy

759
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,560
for adult content creators to be
making relationships with young

760
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:24,920
children.
I don't think that's right.

761
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,080
But I do think they should be
able to leave opinions.

762
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,240
I do think they should be able
to let let the creators know

763
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,040
what they like and what they
don't like.

764
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,640
And I feel like there's got to
be some sort of middle ground

765
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,880
where for people who have
putting up kids content that I

766
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,600
don't, I don't, I think there
should be a way of having

767
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,640
monitored comments section as
opposed to none at all.

768
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,680
Children are savvy.
They're on the Internet.

769
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,920
Like taking taking the ability
to comment on something away

770
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,040
from them is just going to make
them feel like her.

771
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,080
What?
No, it's going to make them feel

772
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,560
like they're a small little kid.
And that's not the case.

773
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,440
If you're a 10 year old child,
like you need to give them that

774
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,520
that ability.
You don't want to take those

775
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,560
things away from them.
But I refuse, I refuse to allow

776
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,560
YouTube to be completely barren
of good content.

777
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:18,040
And I'm I really do believe that
if there are enough people doing

778
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,800
the right thing who create a
community in the same way that

779
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,680
other smart YouTube communities
have done, I do think you can

780
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,320
help rise together.
And I think the algorithm does,

781
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,480
you know, it it it needs
similarities to it's just stupid

782
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,560
artificial intelligence.
It's not smart.

783
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,880
You know, it needs to have it
needs to have lots of video.

784
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,640
Exactly.
So, you know, the the more those

785
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:47,960
of us who are really trying hard
to make good quality, trusted,

786
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,440
sort of like guilt free content
for children, and I think the

787
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,560
more of it there is, I do think
it will start to rise through

788
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,280
the ranks.
But one thing I've tried to do,

789
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,800
because, you know, I have had
some successes on YouTube, the

790
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,360
growth is slow, but is that I'm
trying to find videos or video

791
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:08,840
titles that both a child might
click on, but also would be

792
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,000
something that's potentially
helpful to people like

793
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,120
yourselves, to educators who
might be looking for additional

794
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,960
content to make their classes
more exciting, but aren't

795
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:24,480
necessarily academic explainers.
So you know, how a

796
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,800
jack-in-the-box works is
actually a really good way to

797
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,440
talk about the science of
springs.

798
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,440
So you're talking about sort of
stored energy and different

799
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,159
types of energy.
It's a really good way to start

800
00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:36,639
thinking about that.
And there's a little make in

801
00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:40,199
there as well that I know that
classrooms could make really

802
00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:42,760
simple or you need some paper to
make a spring.

803
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,760
Or let's say, if I'm thinking
about, I'm trying to think of

804
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,120
other videos I've made.
Oh, so I, I went to Iceland last

805
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,520
year to film a bunch of content.
And one of my videos is how is

806
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,400
bread baked in a frozen lake?
Now it's that's quite that's

807
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,760
quite like a cliquey title.
It's something that, you know,

808
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:05,400
kids will go huh, what exactly?
But that's it.

809
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,160
Brilliant.
If I can get families watching

810
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,600
together, even better.
But actually that video is a

811
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,360
lesson about geothermal energy,
which I know that every every

812
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,560
teacher at some point will need
to be touching on with their

813
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,080
with, you know, their their
pupils when they're thinking

814
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,360
about different energy types.
So I'm like, what's the clicky

815
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,040
cool title that can make
teachers lives a bit easier?

816
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:25,880
I think that's a good.
Play.

817
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,160
That's a good play.
I'm telling you right now, you

818
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,320
know, you're talking to two
teachers who work in primary

819
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:31,480
schools.
We worked in primary schools for

820
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,280
the last decade and video
content is great.

821
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,720
I use it all the time.
Like I wouldn't say I don't sit

822
00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:38,240
there and put on a like an hour
and a half video and put my feet

823
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,480
up, you know, like, but I will,
I will use video in lessons all

824
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:41,840
the time.
Do you?

825
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,160
Remember we filmed some for
maths?

826
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,680
Yeah, we literally one day were
like, shall we basically film

827
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,000
like we this was.
This was 20/16/27.

828
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,320
This was a long time ago.
So we had an objective we wanted

829
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,960
to teach and we were like, we
know kids engage with screen to

830
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,320
the point where I could
literally record me saying the

831
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,200
same thing that I'd say to them
in person and put them put it on

832
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,200
a YouTube video and they'd be
three times more engaged because

833
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,000
it's because it's on the.
Screen Interesting.

834
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,800
It's it's mad, right, honestly,
and it'll be the same content.

835
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:06,960
So we went away and just made a
bunch of video.

836
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,920
It's like silly little videos.
It's just like 42nd things.

837
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,400
But it introduced introduced a
real life problem to them.

838
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,480
It was like how to cut up and
get into thirds or something.

839
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,080
Random, but it was fractions.
It was fractions, that's what it

840
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:18,000
was, yeah.
And we were like kicking a

841
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,720
football.
We played Super Mario Odyssey

842
00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:23,040
and we had you have to collect
50 coins and he had 26 out of

843
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,560
15.
We said what percentage is that?

844
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,720
And it's like.
But that's it.

845
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:28,720
That's it.
You're coming at it from and

846
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:32,520
from what it feels like a trendy
cool angle.

847
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,760
Just the just the fact it's on
YouTube, which is, you know, a

848
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,200
platform that you know isn't,
isn't something all the kids

849
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,080
might be allowed to be on.
But also you're using Super

850
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,480
Mario.
You're using like food and

851
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:44,760
baguettes.
Like, you know, you can come at

852
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,360
it in a slightly different angle
that you just might not be able

853
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,840
to in a classroom because of the
limitations that are put on you.

854
00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:53,200
Yeah.
I'm curious to ask you though,

855
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,680
so when you're so you're looking
for video content, something I

856
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,840
often wonder about is how I
should be titling my videos.

857
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,760
Because would it be easier if I
titled my videos?

858
00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:07,240
How does a jack-in-the-box work?
Plus Science of Springs for

859
00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:10,680
primary school children.
But then if I do that, then that

860
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,320
that little extra bit in the
title is going to be worth

861
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,240
putting to the kids.
Yeah.

862
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:19,480
So it's like how I often wonder,
like, how are educators finding

863
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,680
the videos that they want to
supplement their teaching,

864
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:23,200
Right?
I suppose if you're thinking

865
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,000
about it for the lens of it's
the educator searching for it.

866
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,240
Yeah, we're gonna, we're just
gonna search for those like

867
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:29,800
those term the scientific.
Terms in your.

868
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,360
Honesty, I wouldn't be searching
for Jack a Box.

869
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,160
I'd be searching for how does
springs work?

870
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,160
Explain for children.
That's like a classic term.

871
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:36,000
Explain for children.
I'm.

872
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:37,280
I'm always typing that on
Google.

873
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:39,560
Yeah.
It's literally for kids.

874
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,120
For kids.
For kids.

875
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:42,080
Yeah, exactly.
And maybe.

876
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,600
I just need to start putting.
Oh yeah.

877
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,960
Is it like do I just start
putting science for kids?

878
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:49,840
Yeah, Yeah.
There's one thing I'd really

879
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,280
like to touch back on.
Earlier on, you mentioned about

880
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:54,880
role models.
You're saying when you were

881
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,200
younger there wasn't a role
model and you sort of mentioned

882
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,600
like the classic man with white
hair, old man.

883
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:01,960
It.
Does that play on your mind a

884
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,640
bit like now you, because you
kind of have filled that role,

885
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,480
like you are now a role model
for younger children in STEM

886
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,040
subjects like?
Yeah, it's interesting.

887
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,360
Like I, you know, people often
say who were your science role

888
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,040
models as a kid?
And there are two that I can

889
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,880
mention.
One was David Attenborough.

890
00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:21,320
And I think even David
Attenborough himself would

891
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,280
admit, you know, he's the
presenter of the Natural History

892
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,240
programmes and he, he's more of
a figurehead than anything else.

893
00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:32,440
But you know, he's he himself
isn't, isn't a trained scientist

894
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,120
and he's ATV guy ultimately.
But for me as a kid, I saw him

895
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,040
as, like, peak science on
Natural History.

896
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,600
And the other person, the only
woman I can think of who I

897
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,160
found, you know, inspiring when
I was younger was Doctor Ellie

898
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,760
Sattler, who was a the the
doctor in Jurassic Park.

899
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:52,600
Oh yeah.
Yeah.

900
00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:55,200
Yeah, I was nothing.
In who?

901
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,520
She's the paleo botanist in
Jurassic Park.

902
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:02,920
The one who like, you know, I
was like, who is this awesome

903
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:07,960
cool woman who's like fixing up
dinosaurs and studies like

904
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,680
Jurassic plants?
I was like, I want to be her

905
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:12,640
problem.
She was very much a fictional

906
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,120
character.
Doesn't that say something?

907
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,920
Exactly, exactly.
But The thing is now I would say

908
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,920
like in my experience, I do
think this is changing.

909
00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:25,680
I think that people are being,
whether that's, you know, new

910
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,400
media or old media, we are
seeing so much more diversity

911
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,400
across the board when it comes
to a sort of faces in STEM.

912
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,280
It's not perfect.
And I would say on YouTube

913
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,920
especially, there's definitely
still a lot more, you know,

914
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:42,960
white guys in science than
anything else.

915
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,440
But I do think in in television
especially, that people are

916
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,200
being really considerate about
making sure that there is

917
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:54,560
diversity.
However, I'm aware that I now

918
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,480
sort of live in a world of
science communicators and my

919
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,920
world is surrounded by
opportunities to talk to

920
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,400
different scientists.
I'm always meeting different

921
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,760
women who are doing incredible
things in STEM.

922
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,600
But I'm aware that that still
probably isn't true for most

923
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,600
people.
So I think my view might be a

924
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,680
little bit biassed towards my
experience.

925
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,320
But I think that's important.
And I think, I think what we

926
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,320
sometimes miss, we come almost
full circle with we kind of all

927
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,360
agreed this is really important.
We're gonna push through it.

928
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,160
We're kind of coming full circle
back where there's a growing

929
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,920
voice of people who say, oh,
well, we've got there now,

930
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,120
what's the point?
We don't need this anymore.

931
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,480
And you talk about your
experience, whatever, you know,

932
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,320
it's okay.
I, I think Hayden and I are very

933
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,440
passionate about.
We still need a push for it.

934
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,000
And yeah, we're too white guys,
we're too middle-aged, not

935
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:46,440
middle-aged, yeah, but we're
getting there.

936
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,360
We're white, white bloke and
we're just in the primary.

937
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:50,480
World extremely young, but
they're.

938
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,360
Extremely young, but the primary
world's dominated by women.

939
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,640
We have a podcast where our
voice is kind of amplified

940
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,600
almost and we have lots of
people who listen and, and I

941
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,560
don't know, I want to ask you,
what would be your defence of

942
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,800
this push for inclusion?
Why is it still so important?

943
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,160
What's it going to do?
That's an actively good thing by

944
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,600
promoting different voices.
Well, something I notice, I

945
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,400
think, I think it's probably
best that I talk about just

946
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,560
simply women in STEM because
that's my experience.

947
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:23,040
I can't really talk about it for
others, but it's, it's I

948
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:28,080
definitely it seems to be the
case that even though primary

949
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,160
school age kids might be seeing
more diversity or more women in

950
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:37,520
STEM, whether that's on the
television or whether that's or

951
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:42,000
wherever, wherever you get your
content, it doesn't necessarily

952
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,000
mean that girls are then
choosing science more.

953
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,080
I still think there's clearly a
drop off in interest.

954
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:51,840
And that interest that does seem
to be sort of like, you know,

955
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,040
when girls are hitting sort of
like the early, early teenage

956
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,320
years, it seems to be like very,
very interested in science And

957
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,800
then sort of like off when they
sort of get to like after 9.

958
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,960
I don't know the exact stats,
but I I'm pretty sure there is.

959
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,760
That's when they you start
seeing the drop off in young

960
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,360
girls who are actually who will
who will say they are interested

961
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,680
in STEM subjects.
I think I read that exact thing

962
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:13,800
earlier.
I literally, I was doing just a

963
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:15,760
bit of research, thinking about
this earlier, and I saw

964
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,960
something along the lines of
since the 80s in the USA and the

965
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,160
UK, Yeah, yeah, exactly what you
said.

966
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,760
Like there's a huge drop off
now, like a bigger drop off than

967
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:26,640
ever before.
That's when people choose, isn't

968
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:28,200
it as well?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

969
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,000
Like the choice is actually
like, we're seeing fewer women

970
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,840
getting into STEM subjects sort
of in teenage years when they

971
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:35,520
choose like the band within the
80s.

972
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,160
I thought that was crazy.
And so I think so you've got to

973
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,680
think why you're like, OK, so
you know, we're we're presenting

974
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,600
more opportunities and we're
presenting more diversity to

975
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,400
young people, to young girls,
but they clearly still don't

976
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,200
feel like it's for them.
You've got to go, OK, why?

977
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,440
And I mean, I've got a couple, a
couple of theories.

978
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,560
And I think one of them is this,
again, being very general here,

979
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,480
but I do think that young girls
like to sort of to see where

980
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,520
they're going and like to sort
of see the point in something

981
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,280
before they necessarily invest a
lot of time into it.

982
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,360
So from my experience, one of
the reasons I picked, you know,

983
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,720
theatre, film and television, I
had a great time, by the way,

984
00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:13,760
nothing wrong with choosing the
art at all.

985
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:18,400
But the reason I picked that was
because I sort of felt like I

986
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,000
already, I already had made some
kind of like I had already

987
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,000
carved a bit of a path for
myself because I've been doing

988
00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:28,000
all of the extracurricular, all
of those extracurricular

989
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,000
activities.
I don't necessarily think though

990
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,160
there are the same opportunities
in science and engineering.

991
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,360
There are some out there.
There's some great opportunities

992
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,520
like the Institute of
Engineering and Technology.

993
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,000
They run first Lego League,
which is where you can get, you

994
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:47,200
know, groups of schools can get
together and create Lego, Lego

995
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,760
robots essentially.
I think Formula One might do

996
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,120
some sort of extracurricular
thing as well, where again,

997
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,760
groups of students can create
essentially their own kit cars.

998
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,400
So there are some
extracurricular things, but not

999
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,080
in the same social way that you
have with drama.

1000
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,240
And I think that young girls
would potentially stay

1001
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:09,680
interested if there were more
extracurricular social things

1002
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:11,440
that they could do outside of
school.

1003
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,920
Because I think you still have
that question.

1004
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,360
But well, what does, what does
it, what does a career in

1005
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,560
science look like?
For me, that's, that's a long

1006
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:21,720
way off.
What about right now?

1007
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:23,280
How is it relevant to me right
now?

1008
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:28,360
And I think finding ways to make
it accessible and fun outside of

1009
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,320
school so that it exists beyond
the realm of a top of a, of a

1010
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:33,880
subject.
And I think that's the other

1011
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:39,760
thing as well is that I
understood that yes, I could do

1012
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:44,040
drama at school as an option,
but I knew that drama meant a

1013
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:49,360
career on the stage or in TV or
when YouTube didn't even really

1014
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:55,040
exist for me, right?
But with science was very much

1015
00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:00,080
physics, chemistry and biology,
and I didn't really know what a

1016
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,600
what a physicist was.
Truth is, there are so many

1017
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,080
different types of physicists.
I sort of a biologist.

1018
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:06,680
I was like, well, what do I,
what is that?

1019
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,360
Again, so many different types
of ologists, but I didn't know

1020
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,240
that.
And the same with chemistry.

1021
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:16,040
And I think sometimes I wish, I
wish that we were able to teach

1022
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:22,720
kids around topics and we were
able to focus on sort of like

1023
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,440
on, on children leading their
interest and curiosity a little

1024
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,480
bit more so that we could bring
science subjects into their

1025
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:35,360
interests rather than be like,
here are the boxes that you that

1026
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,440
we have to fit the subjects into
and you either like them or you

1027
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,880
don't.
And so I think I think girls

1028
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,280
would respond better to that.
A. 100% I'm, I'm listening to

1029
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,760
what you're saying, like
cheering it on as a primary

1030
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,200
school teacher as well, because
especially in primary school, we

1031
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,960
are so blessed to have young
children with us all day because

1032
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,560
they are the most inquisitive,
curiosity packed human beings

1033
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:00,560
I've ever met.
They will ask any, they will

1034
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,440
say, they will say, why is the
sky blue?

1035
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,320
And I'll be like, what?
I can tell you if you want.

1036
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,480
And we, we, we sometimes it
feels like as teachers we are so

1037
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:12,440
restricted by, let's be honest,
very quickly, our maths and

1038
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,080
English data driving the way
through.

1039
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:15,560
So we've got, I've got English
and maths all the way.

1040
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,480
Yeah, we've got to make sure
because in year 6 they do their

1041
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,200
tests and we need to make sure
the data is really good.

1042
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,400
It means science is this really
weird middle ground where it's a

1043
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,800
core subject still.
So it's, it's with English,

1044
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,160
maths and science, it's they're
the core subjects, but only

1045
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,480
English and maths have the test
where we have data that were

1046
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,320
judged on as a school.
So science is this weird middle

1047
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,800
ground where it gets left
behind.

1048
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,160
And we are very quickly
teaching.

1049
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,480
OK, I've got year 4 science, I'm
teaching states of matter,

1050
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,480
solid, liquid gases.
I'm just going to tell the kids

1051
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,080
what they are.
This is what a particle looks

1052
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:46,600
like.
We've got to move on to the next

1053
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,600
thing.
And I really want to dive into

1054
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,720
now maybe talking about your
book because as a school

1055
00:46:51,720 --> 00:46:56,080
teacher, I love seeing
publications like this, what

1056
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,640
you've put together, because I
feel like there's so many

1057
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,880
children in my class who I, I
struggle with the fact that I

1058
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,440
feel like I'm not feeling their
curiosity or helping them with

1059
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,040
this in the confines of the
curriculum.

1060
00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:09,280
But I can say to them, why don't
you go and read this book

1061
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,760
because you can find out how an
X-ray works.

1062
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:13,600
I'm never going to tell you
about that, but you can, you can

1063
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,280
dive into it.
And it's so it's, but it's so

1064
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,720
important.
And I think what my question is

1065
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:21,280
to you is what role do you see
yourself as playing as not a

1066
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,440
teacher in a classroom, but very
much a teacher in a different

1067
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:27,400
respect?
I think in fostering that and

1068
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,680
almost filling that gap, do you
see yourself as doing that?

1069
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,800
I see it as my responsibility
and this is whether I'm going

1070
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,840
making a YouTube video, a
podcast or a book.

1071
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,560
And this is something that I
think I'm taking more and more

1072
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,920
seriously and I've come to
realise as, as I've, for the, as

1073
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,600
I've been doing this for quite a
few years now, is that I see it

1074
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,880
as my responsibility to bring
story back into the equation.

1075
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:52,000
Because I think when you are,
like you've said, when you're,

1076
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,840
when you're having to teach
things in a short amount of time

1077
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:56,640
and you're just having to tick
the boxes.

1078
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:02,480
I feel like young children learn
best and are most invested in

1079
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,200
something a if it's just one of
their interests or if there's an

1080
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:09,600
element of story.
So when it came to writing my

1081
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,720
late this, this my latest book,
how does it work?

1082
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:17,480
I have seen a lot of how of how
do things work books out there

1083
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,520
in the past.
And typically, like, you know,

1084
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,000
they're brilliant books, but
typically you might have a page

1085
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,320
of, let's say water machines and
they'll just be different

1086
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,600
machines and you lift the flaps
and, and that's it.

1087
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:32,320
Or there might be lots of little
explanations for, for things

1088
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,160
that are in the air, for
example.

1089
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,520
And I was like, that's all well
and good, but where's the story?

1090
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:39,960
What, what, where's the
incentive for the child to keep

1091
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,240
reading?
So what I decided to do with

1092
00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:46,080
this book was that I sort of
split it into 4 chapters or four

1093
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,520
stories.
And yes, on each page there are

1094
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,280
different objects with little
explainers as to how they work.

1095
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,960
But the the reader is placed on
a mission across those pages.

1096
00:48:56,240 --> 00:49:00,400
So the first story is called is
you have to find missing parts

1097
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,360
of a remote control car.
So you are looking for missing

1098
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,440
parts or throughout the
illustrations and then you get

1099
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:10,040
to the final page and you find
out how a remote control car

1100
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:12,040
works because you found all
those missing pieces.

1101
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:14,920
And on that final page is a
maze.

1102
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:19,000
So the child then has to use has
to race the remote control car

1103
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:20,720
through the maze.
There's a puzzle for them to

1104
00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:24,040
solve.
So along the way they have

1105
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,600
visited a kitchen and they found
out how a fridge works.

1106
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,040
They have been in a living room
and they found out how a

1107
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:33,600
television works.
But actually, if they have

1108
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:35,760
chosen rather than, you know,
just to look at the pictures,

1109
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:37,520
which is fine.
But if they've chosen to read

1110
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,680
the text and play the part of
the game, they've actually been

1111
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,560
involved in the story a little
bit, which I think sort of gives

1112
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,440
you an incentive to keep reading
and actually take in more

1113
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,360
information.
So, and so that's the way I

1114
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,720
decided to to lay it out was to
just to make sure that I could

1115
00:49:53,720 --> 00:49:56,960
take something that
traditionally hasn't had story

1116
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,200
placed in it and find a way to
put it in there so that the

1117
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:05,400
children who might say, well,
science isn't for me will

1118
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,320
actually pick it up and go, Oh,
but I like puzzles, I like

1119
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,600
games, I like finding things.
I'm I like noticing things, I

1120
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,480
like being observant.
I like asking questions.

1121
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,200
All of those things are key, key
to science.

1122
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:23,320
But it's really hard to explore
that in a classroom where you've

1123
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:24,960
just got to teach states of
matter.

1124
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,720
Especially, yeah, in a
curriculum that is just that's

1125
00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:30,960
just round with his knowledge,
learn it, move on that, you know

1126
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:32,120
that.
That's really like.

1127
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,120
Where it's become.
And I feel for you, I really do.

1128
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,200
In primary school, it's it's
it's different to secondary

1129
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,000
schools, but a secondary
school's a whole nother world.

1130
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,320
But you know, earlier on you
mentioned about topic based

1131
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:43,080
learning.
We we kind of do that a lot

1132
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:44,680
more, I'd say in in primary
schools.

1133
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,440
But I know in secondary schools
it's then it's biology,

1134
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:50,200
chemistry and physics.
And I remember 11 like just a

1135
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,440
quick story from a while ago,
like in a school I worked in

1136
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,960
maybe like six or seven years
ago, it was it was actually a

1137
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,080
really rich curriculum for like
topic based curriculum.

1138
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:00,960
I actually loved that.
I loved teaching in that school

1139
00:51:01,240 --> 00:51:04,200
because it was all about let's
just get engaged with this cool

1140
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:06,520
thing and let's draw the science
out of it and let's draw the

1141
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:08,560
engineering out of it,
essentially draw the DT and art,

1142
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,040
whatever.
And then and then one day Ofsted

1143
00:51:12,240 --> 00:51:17,640
came in Ofsted and said, oh, but
do the children know this is

1144
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,440
biology, though?
They're calling, they're calling

1145
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,680
this topic, you know, whatever
it was called the Mayans and it

1146
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:24,640
was history, isn't it?
And it's like, well, yeah.

1147
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:26,720
But well, yeah, they are doing
the well.

1148
00:51:26,720 --> 00:51:27,680
They don't know it's biology,
though.

1149
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:29,120
They're not.
They don't know that this is

1150
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:30,400
physics.
So this is not very good.

1151
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:31,800
And then the school ended up
changing it.

1152
00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:34,280
Oh, we need to be, we need to be
more explicit.

1153
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:35,280
So we're going to get rid of
topics.

1154
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,600
We're going to go back to doing
biology lessons so the children

1155
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:39,920
know they're learning biology.
We're going to do we're going to

1156
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:41,560
do chemistry.
We obviously don't do much

1157
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,240
chemistry.
And, you know, little bits of

1158
00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:45,960
it.
And I just thought, Oh my God,

1159
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,640
what's the point?
Just seems so Jurassic.

1160
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,760
I mean, look, I don't know how
you could change the school

1161
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,640
system overnight and I would not
want that job.

1162
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:58,920
So, you know, I'm sort of
talking here with a complete

1163
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,720
lack of experience.
But it does seem like in a world

1164
00:52:02,720 --> 00:52:06,840
where really, you know, we need
to be teaching our children how

1165
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:12,280
to, I can't believe I'm saying
this, but actually how to ask

1166
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,520
prompts of artificial
intelligence correctly and how

1167
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,400
to Google search things
efficiently and how to

1168
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:22,280
understand when you're getting a
good answer versus a bad answer.

1169
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:26,680
Like the way we understand and
the way that we learn and know

1170
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,280
things as adults now is based on
our ability to search and find

1171
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:34,560
trustworthy good information.
And actually just sort of like

1172
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:38,240
feeding kids information to then
take off in an exam isn't

1173
00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:41,160
actually a really good example
of how we how we operate in the

1174
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,920
world as adults.
Because in the in, in that as

1175
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:49,240
adults, I think these days in
2025, what you want is for

1176
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:52,520
someone to just be curious, be
interested and to just, and to

1177
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:56,040
ask questions and know how to
search out the right

1178
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:58,720
information.
Like nobody's a walking

1179
00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:01,240
dictionary or a walking
encyclopaedia anymore.

1180
00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:03,480
No, nobody has to be.
Which is a beautiful.

1181
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,560
Thing you know what I.
Mean but that but that that is

1182
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,360
what it ends up feeling like and
I've got to say the number of

1183
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,680
times I've been stood in a
lesson and I'm delivering, let's

1184
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,440
say a science lesson and the
children, I could say a sentence

1185
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,040
about states of matter.
I could say we have solids,

1186
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:20,560
liquids and gases and without
even doing any kind of prompt or

1187
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,200
looking at what I prepared
earlier, two or three children

1188
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,680
have their hand up and go what
what about honey?

1189
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:29,000
Because that's that that that
moves quite slowly, doesn't it?

1190
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,240
And then we can talk about
viscosity and we can talk about

1191
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:32,640
that.
What about flour?

1192
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,000
Because you can pour flour.
But you said that liquids can be

1193
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,080
poured and solids can't.
But is flour a solid?

1194
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:41,320
And these most unbelievable
prompts, which should really

1195
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:43,000
from that point spark the
lesson.

1196
00:53:44,240 --> 00:53:47,480
I feel as the teacher sometimes
I have to be like, what a great

1197
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:48,800
question.
Wait a minute though, because

1198
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:50,160
I've got to get through the
seven other things.

1199
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:51,720
And I'm going to maybe talk
about that at the end.

1200
00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:54,960
And I'm saying to children,
okay, guys, hands down, please,

1201
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,320
because I'm going to tell you
stuff that I already know

1202
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,760
because I feel like I've got to
tick this box and it feels so

1203
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:02,640
broken.
And as someone who's not in the

1204
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:07,040
teaching world, I'd love your
opinion on how crazy that sounds

1205
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,120
if it does sound crazy.
Well it's mad because that

1206
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,720
you've just immediately given me
an idea for a YouTube video.

1207
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:15,920
Like how clicky is the title is
flower a liquid which is which

1208
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:17,800
is a thumbnail of me pouring
flour?

1209
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:22,280
Looking confused but but then
but then that YouTube video

1210
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:26,440
would be unbelievable to have as
my prompt in that lesson at the

1211
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:27,680
start.
I know the lesson right now.

1212
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,080
If you can find it.
Yeah, that's the thing.

1213
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:34,320
You would only find it if I
titled it States of Matter for

1214
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:36,040
Kids.
Yeah, Year 4 or?

1215
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:41,120
Year 4, Yeah, Interest like,
like fun.

1216
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,120
And then brackets.
Dylan, please watch.

1217
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:45,240
Yeah, something like that.
Might find it then I.

1218
00:54:45,240 --> 00:54:47,040
Think that might find it?
Yeah.

1219
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,080
When you do that, let me know
because I will put it into that

1220
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:51,320
lesson.
And it will be a really good

1221
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:53,640
idea, might do go back.
To your book for a second,

1222
00:54:53,720 --> 00:54:55,720
because I, I, when you, when you
were talking.

1223
00:54:56,080 --> 00:55:00,160
Wait a minute.
Sorry, let's talk about the

1224
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:02,680
book, let's talk about the.
Book when you were talking about

1225
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,400
when you were explaining it, I
was actually thinking I, I can

1226
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:07,800
immediately think of someone in
my class as a girl in my class

1227
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,720
right now who I know will be so
into this book.

1228
00:55:10,720 --> 00:55:12,440
Like I'm really looking forward
to getting a copy and put it in

1229
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:14,920
the classroom.
That's what makes me so happy.

1230
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,040
My first book was called Stuff,
and that was very much about how

1231
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,920
things are made.
And I, I, I could have, you

1232
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:22,320
know, it could have been very
simple.

1233
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,400
Each page could have been an
object, so I could have just

1234
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,480
described how it's made.
But I was like, no, where's the

1235
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,360
story?
Where's the sense of adventure?

1236
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,240
How do I get children who don't
think they're into science to

1237
00:55:32,240 --> 00:55:35,280
enjoy this?
So actually I found stories that

1238
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:38,200
I'm passionate about and these
are people who are based all

1239
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:41,360
over the world, communities who
are making things everyday

1240
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:47,440
objects in really interesting,
unexpected ways and in ways that

1241
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,040
are also good for the planet as
well.

1242
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:55,080
So it's not just how is paper
made, it's how is paper made at

1243
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,960
a poo paper factory in Thailand.
And it's kind of cool because

1244
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:02,440
yeah, sure, you learn about
paper, you learn about fibre and

1245
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,680
how you know, and the various
different processes that

1246
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,920
required to make paper.
But you also get this sense of

1247
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,120
adventure because you've
travelled to Thailand, you're

1248
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:14,240
looking at elephants and you're
finding out about sustainability

1249
00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:16,920
and looking after the planet and
looking after animals all at the

1250
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,000
same time.
And that's the kind of thing

1251
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,280
that I think young girls are
interested in.

1252
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,640
It's this like, oh, and then
what you're sort of stealthily

1253
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:29,000
doing is sort of saying,
actually science is this ticket

1254
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:34,680
to travel to adventure.
You don't no lab coats insight.

1255
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:36,360
You will never see me in a lab
coat.

1256
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:40,840
The YouTube video Maddie MO
Where's a Lab coat?

1257
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:42,520
Yeah, I know.
I'm now thinking I'm like, I'm

1258
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:44,760
definitely what?
I've definitely, that's just

1259
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:47,120
absolutely a lie.
I've definitely won a lab coat

1260
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:49,840
in necessary environment.
There's someone listening to

1261
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:51,720
this right now going yeah,
actually I've googled this.

1262
00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:53,480
Thank you.
That's an absolute lie.

1263
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,920
I never dressed myself in a lab
coat for fun.

1264
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:57,240
There we go.
That's that's that's true.

1265
00:56:57,240 --> 00:56:58,800
And I.
Don't think I do either.

1266
00:56:59,240 --> 00:57:02,960
That's good, you know, But do
you know what there's just I

1267
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,080
wish we could do right?
It'd be incredibly boring for

1268
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:09,560
you, but I wish you, I could
like sit you down in front of

1269
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,280
like a scheme of work.
And I, I, I want you to see

1270
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:14,040
'cause there's loads of schemes
of work, right For primary,

1271
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,160
primary schools buy into
different schemes of work based

1272
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:17,480
on what they think is good for
their school.

1273
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:19,760
There's tonnes of them.
You know our school uses 1 of

1274
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:23,120
100 different really some really
good schemes, some honestly

1275
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:24,720
completely rubbish schemes of.
Work out there.

1276
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:27,080
For science, I'd be so
interested one day.

1277
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:30,520
It's like, literally just get
your take on a whole school

1278
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:32,920
scheme of work and like your
opinions because I think it's

1279
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:34,080
good.
By the way, that, you know, you

1280
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:35,480
said you're kind of out of this
world.

1281
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:36,280
That's good.
Yeah.

1282
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,480
Because I think it needs a fresh
pair of eyes almost.

1283
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,000
It'd be so funny.
But to go to office and say this

1284
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:44,560
is the this person's in science.
So if this person, if Maddie MO

1285
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:46,880
is saying why don't we do this?
Because this is really

1286
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:48,720
important.
Ofsted can't turn around and

1287
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:51,200
say, Oh, no, actually, because
in this document that we he

1288
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:53,080
wrote with some people who sat
in a room who talked for a

1289
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:56,400
little bit, I've said that.
No, yeah, you are a scientist.

1290
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:58,920
You're saying it.
But I but I actually think I'm

1291
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:02,280
in this sort of bizarre
privilege position where I'm not

1292
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:04,280
a scientist.
Like, you know, you're a

1293
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:06,760
scientist.
Well, no, I mean not, not

1294
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,320
technically.
You know, I'm not a doctor.

1295
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:11,920
I don't have a degree in
science.

1296
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:15,400
I've always come at this from a
point of being interested in

1297
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:20,120
curiosity, which I think works
of like now, like at first I was

1298
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,320
a little bit like imposter
syndrome, like I should I

1299
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:27,240
quickly, you know, run, run back
to uni and do a zoology degree

1300
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:30,200
or something.
But actually now I'm like, oh,

1301
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:32,200
no, this is actually good
because I can be the voice of

1302
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:34,920
the kids.
Like it's so funny because a lot

1303
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,600
of people often quote my show
back to me, which is Maddie's do

1304
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:40,800
you know?
And they'll be like, oh, you

1305
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:43,200
know, parents will say, oh, you
know, our kids ask us the

1306
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:44,600
question.
And we always go, Maddie will

1307
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:48,560
know.
But actually the show always

1308
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,360
starts with me going, do you
know how this is made?

1309
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,000
Or do you know how that works?
Let's find out.

1310
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:56,680
Because the truth is, I don't, I
don't, I don't know.

1311
00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:00,200
I don't know anything.
It's, it's like what I enjoy is

1312
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:04,040
finding these things out.
And I think that's it's, it's my

1313
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:06,760
love of doing that that I get to
share with the kids.

1314
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:09,560
I think you are a scientist.
Yeah, that is science.

1315
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:10,800
Well then, but then I would say
every.

1316
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:13,880
But then something I will say to
every, every child I meet is

1317
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:15,320
that you are already a
scientist.

1318
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,360
If you like to look at the world
and ask questions, you're a

1319
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:20,360
scientist.
So technically I'm not, but I've

1320
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,760
certainly been a science
communicator for, yeah, a

1321
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,680
science communicator of 10 plus
years.

1322
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:27,560
So whatever that, whatever that
earns me.

1323
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:38,560
A BAFTA, Maddie, I've got to say
a, a huge thank you for jumping

1324
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:42,560
on with us because I think for
people listening to this, so our

1325
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:44,880
audience very much primary
school teachers.

1326
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:46,800
I love the idea of them
listening to you talk about

1327
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:50,520
science passionately as someone
outside of the school education

1328
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:53,680
system, but very much in the
education sector of helping

1329
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:55,800
children.
I'm, I'm very excited to hear

1330
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:57,800
what they have to say about it,
how you've inspired them.

1331
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,920
And most importantly, just going
back to your book again, I hope

1332
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:04,640
there are thousands of teachers
now thinking, do you know what?

1333
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,920
That's a book.
And I have a child in my class.

1334
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:10,040
Who I can think of straight
away, and I bet everyone

1335
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:11,880
listening can have this one
child or even more.

1336
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,200
I can think of five, to be
honest, who I could put this

1337
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,280
book in front of.
And they will be completely

1338
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,800
engrossed in really good
science, maybe without even

1339
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:22,680
knowing that they're engrossed
in some really good science.

1340
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,720
And then we can come in and say,
look guys, this is science.

1341
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:27,800
And I'm just so excited.
Thank you.

1342
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:33,200
Thank you so much.
Hayden, how did you feel about

1343
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:35,080
that?
Because I loved it.

1344
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:36,760
I could, I could have talked for
so much longer.

1345
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:39,240
I was very aware of the timings
of our podcast, but I would love

1346
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:41,440
to talk to Maddie more.
I'm just inspired and I and I

1347
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:44,520
and I think it's so good that,
that, that Maddie and other

1348
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:46,280
people that do that sort of
work, they exist now.

1349
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:48,680
I feel like when we were kids,
yeah, maybe we had more money in

1350
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:49,960
school and we were doing these
things.

1351
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:51,280
Kids now there's no budget
anymore.

1352
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:53,240
They need inspiration, They need
role models.

1353
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,520
There are lots of young girls
who I know in my class alone,

1354
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:57,480
let alone everywhere else, who
will look up to Maddie and be

1355
01:00:57,480 --> 01:00:59,120
like, oh, wow, I can do this as
well.

1356
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,280
You know, I, I just love that.
I love that chat.

1357
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:03,760
I feel like I need to.
I want to go and teach science

1358
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:06,280
better, teach the STEM subjects
better at my school, you know?

1359
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:09,240
Yeah, The big thing for me
coming out of it was I think

1360
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:11,120
teachers, sometimes we live in
our own little bubble.

1361
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:12,800
We think we know best all of the
time.

1362
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:14,000
We think, OK, well, we've got
these.

1363
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:16,880
Well, I've taught forever and I
know teaching really well.

1364
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:18,840
Do you know what?
Sometimes it takes someone who

1365
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:20,640
is just an expert in something
that has.

1366
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:22,760
It comes from outside of the
teaching world.

1367
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:25,760
Yeah.
Not warped by this kind of idea

1368
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:27,800
of just ticking boxes and
getting through assessment.

1369
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:31,200
Maddie comes from it, from the
place of loving science and

1370
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,040
being curious about things.
And what I will say is her

1371
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,200
book's amazing.
Just go and see her book.

1372
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:37,760
I'll put a link down in the
description below.

1373
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:39,200
It's been released like as of
today.

1374
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:41,720
It's out there now in the world.
How does it work?

1375
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:43,320
You have just heard her explain
it.

1376
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:46,600
I mean, there's not much more to
say other than I can think of

1377
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,760
genuinely multiple children that
I've taught and I'm teaching

1378
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:52,600
right now, who putting that book
in front of them would really

1379
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:53,480
inspire them.
Yeah.

1380
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:55,440
Brilliant, can't wait to see it.
Amazing.

1381
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:57,600
Let's do it right.
Anyway, guys, thank you so much

1382
01:01:57,600 --> 01:01:59,160
for listening.
See you next time.

1383
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:01,040
And if you've got this file, you
know what I'm going to ask you

1384
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:02,360
to do?
Leave us a review because it

1385
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,440
helps us so much.
And share this podcast with

1386
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:08,080
anyone you think who might find
it interesting.

1387
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:09,280
Amazing.
See you later.

1388
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:09,720
See you later.