Ep 138: The Biggest Waste Of Time Teacher Jobs & Why They Can Be Binned!

1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,160
Hello everyone and welcome back
to another episode of Teach Seat

2
00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:03,880
Repeat.
My name is Dylan and my name and

3
00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:05,840
this week we're going to be
talking about those annoying

4
00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,200
jobs that completely waste
teachers time and why we think

5
00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,280
you can get rid of them
completely with 0 impact on the

6
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:13,800
children.
Let's take a look at what they

7
00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:19,200
are I can already hear them the
the the whispers of the TikTok

8
00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,480
comments oh teach sleep, repeat
you're always boding nothing

9
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,080
positive to say about the
profession Well, we're doubling

10
00:00:25,080 --> 00:00:27,760
down all right we're back again
biggest waste of time things

11
00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:28,960
they're.
Going to make you whinge even

12
00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:30,840
more.
Whinge even more because I am

13
00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,400
fed up of explaining to people
why we point these things out or

14
00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,840
talk about them.
If you are that incapable of

15
00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,520
understanding the reasons around
it, or if you extrapolate it to

16
00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:41,880
a saying, well, you're saying
all schools and ladies, I like

17
00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,080
this and stuff.
No, I'm, I'm not.

18
00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,120
Yeah, but there are lots of
schools out there who do lots of

19
00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,400
things that are just a bit of a
waste.

20
00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:55,040
Of time and a bit very.
Much so we've got our our list

21
00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:56,200
here.
We're going to go through them.

22
00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,600
But just as just as people
landing may literally have never

23
00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,440
heard of this podcast before, if
you're, if you're an avid

24
00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,360
listener, welcome back.
Why are we talking about this?

25
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:06,040
Why?
Why do we think let's do an hour

26
00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,240
long episode then or however
long we will talk about this,

27
00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,920
about the biggest waste of time
in schools?

28
00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,480
Are we just moaning?
We're not just moaning, we like

29
00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:15,520
to have a little moan, but we're
moaning on behalf of all

30
00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,680
teachers everywhere because
teaching is a profession where

31
00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,040
people are expected to just give
up unholy amounts of extra time

32
00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,080
outside of the bizarre contract
that we have.

33
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,600
And one thing we could do to
maybe tackle teachers leaving is

34
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:29,480
reduce that workload a little
bit, because then they might

35
00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,040
stay and they might want to do
the jobs.

36
00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:33,680
Exactly that, yeah.
And that's the aim at the end of

37
00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,000
the day, it's like the only
reason we're talking about this,

38
00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,000
and I think this is a really
good caveat we can just set up

39
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:39,720
right now.
The whole point of this episode

40
00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,120
is we're going to be talking
about things that we don't think

41
00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:46,160
schools or teachers have to do
that are a waste of time because

42
00:01:46,320 --> 00:01:51,560
the actual comparison between
time spent doing this job and

43
00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,440
impact on the children is just,
it's just way out of whack.

44
00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:55,880
Yeah, it's just not even
comparable.

45
00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,360
So if you were to stop doing
these things we're talking

46
00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,400
about, or at least just draw
them back a bit, the impact on

47
00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,200
the children will be negligible,
if any.

48
00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,440
But in fact, on the profession,
as teachers and schools, you can

49
00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,400
save a lot of time and your
well-being could be improved

50
00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,760
massively.
And we're aware by the way, on

51
00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:13,880
the way through this, we're
aware that some of these things,

52
00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,200
if you're a teacher listening,
it might not be something that

53
00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,200
you can walk into school
tomorrow and say, I'm not doing

54
00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:19,640
this anymore.
And now the whole school's not

55
00:02:19,640 --> 00:02:21,320
doing it because you're maybe
not in that position of power.

56
00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,880
So we are very much talking to
to the profession.

57
00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:25,080
We are in that position of
power.

58
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,400
We are me and you.
And that's why we're talking.

59
00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,600
We're talking about it.
We're trying to start

60
00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:30,280
discussion.
You're.

61
00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,040
Exactly that.
You're exactly that, you know,

62
00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,480
provoke thought.
Whether you're an SLT, whether

63
00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,880
you're from Ofsted, the DfE,
maybe you're listening, I don't

64
00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:37,440
know.
Yeah.

65
00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,040
Or a teacher or.
Wonder if Rishi Sunak still

66
00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,200
listens?
I've been listeners from start

67
00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:41,800
the project.
I think.

68
00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,600
I think, yeah, you're right.
Something else to do this time?

69
00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:45,160
He's in a WhatsApp community,
isn't?

70
00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,920
He I think they might be and and
you can too.

71
00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,880
By going down to the episode
description, you can join our

72
00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,040
WhatsApp community.
You get all the good stuff and

73
00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,440
preference when it comes to
submitting your question and

74
00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:56,960
answers.
In fact, this week's question

75
00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,360
and answer episode is
exclusively from people who've

76
00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:01,960
joined our WhatsApp group
because the questions were.

77
00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:03,680
Just so good, Hayden.
So bloody good.

78
00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,560
So bloody good.
Well, without further ado, let's

79
00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,280
dive in.
First thing we've got on our

80
00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:13,000
list is the absolute staple, the
thing that many people think we

81
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,680
have to do in schools because
it's just what we've always done

82
00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,480
and it's just the best thing in
the world.

83
00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:19,520
Discos.
Defines our job, doesn't it?

84
00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,680
Defines our job.
You can't be a good teacher,

85
00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:22,160
Aiden.
Yeah.

86
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,960
If you have not ran a school
disco, sold those Space

87
00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,520
Invaders, and got that little,
you know, little tubs of juice

88
00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,600
you have at the store that goes
through them, unless you sold 54

89
00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,480
of them, you're not actually
meeting the standards of the

90
00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:33,800
teacher.
Exactly that you want to go up a

91
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:35,680
pay scale point how many discos
you done.

92
00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,200
We make this joke all the time
and make mostly a joke, but also

93
00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,400
because it was grounded in a bit
of reality as well that that

94
00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,680
actually happened in schools.
OK, I want you to get serious

95
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,880
for a second there and really
talk about now this.

96
00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,000
This can be quite controversial.
I think a lot of people listen,

97
00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,040
listen to us and think, guys,
come on, it's a really nice

98
00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,960
thing to do.
Discos love kids love discos,

99
00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:56,000
Yeah.
Yeah, it'd be nice to take the

100
00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,440
kids to go ape as well.
There's there's a lot of nice

101
00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,240
things you can do, honestly.
Like there's, that's not wrong.

102
00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,240
Discos are really nice.
You're providing a a lovely safe

103
00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,200
space outside of the hours where
they're just working and

104
00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,240
learning and everyone's in that
professional mode.

105
00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,440
You're giving them a space where
they can all still be together

106
00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,440
and do something nice.
It's absolutely lovely.

107
00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:16,200
So should I be doing that as a
teacher?

108
00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,920
Is that what you think?
Probably not and you can do it.

109
00:04:18,959 --> 00:04:20,360
This is the thing we're talking
about.

110
00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:22,680
We're talking about things you
could get rid of to reduce

111
00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:24,120
workload and that have an impact
on the kids.

112
00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,920
If there are parents out there
who listen to this, and there

113
00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,960
will be some because we've had
it in the past, who go, you knew

114
00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,600
what you were getting into and
you were becoming a bloody

115
00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,960
teacher.
You should be loving the discos

116
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:36,320
and doing all these things for
my children.

117
00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,040
Why don't you do it for them?
Why don't you join the PTFA and

118
00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,680
set up this kind of lovely
scheme of discos every week and

119
00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:44,400
you run them because it's your
child.

120
00:04:44,840 --> 00:04:46,640
And if the answer to that is,
well, I don't have time for

121
00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,080
that, guess what?
Neither do I.

122
00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,000
Yeah, it's, it's a challenging
1, isn't it?

123
00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:52,680
I think, honestly, I think
people will be triggered by what

124
00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,920
we've said so far because they'd
be like, oh, just just so

125
00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:56,320
ungrateful.
You're so miserable, teacher, so

126
00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:57,560
miserable.
Why don't you just do this nice

127
00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,400
thing to the kids?
Have you done a school disco, Mr

128
00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:00,400
Yeah.
Who's saying that?

129
00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:01,680
Probably not.
No, no.

130
00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:03,080
Well, it's not my job.
Don't care.

131
00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:04,520
Not my job.
Yeah, it is not.

132
00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,840
My job, it isn't.
It's not ultimately like it.

133
00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,560
Look, there are lots of schools
that have school discos that are

134
00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,640
genuinely just run by the PTFA.
That's probably the best system

135
00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:16,000
for it.
If you want to have IF school

136
00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,760
discos for whatever reason is
like the absolute pinnacle of

137
00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,040
what children can do outside of
school hours.

138
00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,400
And it seems to be that way, as
if there's like nothing else.

139
00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,440
There's not 500 other ideas the
way children can get together

140
00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,200
and do something nice.
If it has to be school discos,

141
00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,880
there is genuinely no reason
like why it should be the

142
00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,640
teaching staff coming back at
7:00 PM to to run it or Co run

143
00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:39,000
it.
Sometimes it's PTFA and they

144
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:40,840
just like we just want a couple
of representatives from the

145
00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:41,560
school.
OK, whatever.

146
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,200
There's loads of middle grounds
all the way up to like it's just

147
00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:45,680
teachers running a disco at 7:00
PM.

148
00:05:45,840 --> 00:05:49,200
Yeah, I don't see why I don't.
I I've not heard a good argument

149
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:50,600
to say, well, yeah, they should
be doing that.

150
00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,640
Exactly that.
What what What does the T stand

151
00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,240
for in PTFA?
Teacher.

152
00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,920
It's a volunteer group.
If a teacher wants to volunteer

153
00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,400
to do that, fantastic.
I might volunteer to do

154
00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,480
something completely different
and separate to school, separate

155
00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,640
to my job, and I have a
volunteering role somewhere

156
00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:04,440
else.
Brilliant.

157
00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,560
That's my choice.
I also might do no volunteering

158
00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,760
whatsoever because I'm in the
point in my life where I don't

159
00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,080
have that time to give.
I'd rather go home to my family

160
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,480
and spend time with them.
It is a choice.

161
00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,920
And the whole point of this is
what we're saying here is not to

162
00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,440
get rid of discos altogether.
Quite, quite provocative at the

163
00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:20,800
start to say, yeah, discos waste
time.

164
00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:22,840
Don't do them.
No, discos are not necessarily a

165
00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:24,480
waste of time.
It's a lovely experience for the

166
00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:25,360
children.
OK.

167
00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,800
What I'm saying is a waste of
time is telling your staff they

168
00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:29,960
must do this.
Oh, it's guys.

169
00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:31,360
It's part of directed time.
Let's put you.

170
00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:32,880
I'm going to put it directed
time calendar.

171
00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:34,800
I'm going to get you back at
7:00 PM on a Friday.

172
00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:36,600
No, no, you simply don't have
to.

173
00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,880
And the ultimate example I can
come up with to explain to

174
00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,240
someone why it's not the end of
the world if we stop doing

175
00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,800
discos, even if, even if we say
no, and therefore the PTFA don't

176
00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,800
run it.
And oh, gosh, the disco doesn't

177
00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:49,080
happen now.
Yeah, no.

178
00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:50,840
What we're going to do, we're
going to not have a disco

179
00:06:50,840 --> 00:06:53,640
because I worked in a school for
seven years that did not do

180
00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:55,640
school discos.
The kids must be miserable.

181
00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,440
The.
Kids were happy, they were.

182
00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,160
They were absolutely fine.
They got on well in school, they

183
00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,800
enjoyed themselves and they had
lots for opportunities to do

184
00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,320
other stuff as well.
It's not the Beal and end all

185
00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,960
and if we're talking about
things that we can just strip

186
00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,280
back and have fewer expectations
on teachers, do you know what

187
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,960
I'd rather my staff concentrate
on than thinking, oh I've got to

188
00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,360
order in those Space Invaders
for later when the Top Shop

189
00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,240
opens.
I'd rather than be thinking

190
00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,480
about OK, I'm going to get my
marking done, sort my planning

191
00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,600
for next week and then go home
and have a rest.

192
00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,040
I think what I want to clarify
right now is that we're not

193
00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,400
saying the disco should not
exist, full stop, completely.

194
00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,360
Like we should eradicate and we
should do all and make all the

195
00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:34,480
effort to get rid of them.
Absolutely.

196
00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,960
But you said there are, it's a
volunteer thing.

197
00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:38,760
It is.
It's more about the pressure,

198
00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:39,720
isn't it?
It's the pressure.

199
00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,280
I've been a teacher and I've
definitely done a disco before

200
00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,440
when I absolutely did not want
to be spending my evening doing

201
00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:49,280
that disco because I felt like I
had to show up so to look good

202
00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,400
to the head teacher so that I
could justify my pay rise the

203
00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,760
year after.
I've I I've absolutely done that

204
00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,120
in my career.
So take whatever that is.

205
00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:58,880
Yeah, take whatever we've just
said.

206
00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:00,680
Just put that those two things
together and be like, yeah,

207
00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:02,600
that's what we're talking about.
They're trying to get rid of

208
00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:03,600
that.
That pressure shouldn't exist

209
00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,840
because that is a complete waste
of time for a teacher who

210
00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:07,320
doesn't want to volunteer to be
doing it.

211
00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,120
It's not a waste of time for the
volunteer who wants to do it for

212
00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,400
the kids who want to be there.
Like just let's just make sure

213
00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:13,960
those things are separate.
That's really good point.

214
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:15,640
What would you say?
Because the, the pushback I've

215
00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,720
had to this before and from very
reasonable staff who are lovely,

216
00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,960
lovely people because they're
the people who want to do this

217
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,320
kind of thing who've said, yeah,
but you know what?

218
00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,680
It does just get really annoying
when the same three teachers do

219
00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:27,560
the disco every time.
And it's the only way it's going

220
00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,960
to happen is those three
teachers are the only ones doing

221
00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,720
it every single time it comes
around 3 * a year.

222
00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:35,720
Oh gosh, it's those same, but
it's me again doing it because

223
00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,159
you just too selfish to turn up
and do your bit.

224
00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:40,559
What would you say to those
people?

225
00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:42,720
I'm.
Always like looking at you with

226
00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:44,280
disgusted if you're saying that
to me right now.

227
00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,520
OK, that's role play, Hayden.
I I listen, I did the disco.

228
00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,160
I did the disco at Christmas.
Marking.

229
00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:51,880
Yeah, I know you're marking, but
just can I?

230
00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:53,240
Just have your attention for one
minute.

231
00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:54,840
Fine, yeah.
OK, because we're going to come

232
00:08:54,840 --> 00:09:00,920
on to market later.
Come on mate, I did the disco at

233
00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:02,200
Christmas, I did a disco at
Easter.

234
00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,000
It's the end of year disco.
I just don't want to do, Serena

235
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,000
wrote.
You've not done any.

236
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,600
Like I understand you're busy
and stuff, but mate, it won't

237
00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:10,600
happen if you just don't do it.
You're like, come on, don't be

238
00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:11,800
selfish.
Yeah, that's a shame.

239
00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,360
Is it selfish?
Well, is it?

240
00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,360
Yeah, kind of, because I've done
2.

241
00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:18,160
And you've done none.
That's selfish of you, isn't it?

242
00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:19,600
To be taking hog in the mall,
isn't it?

243
00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,080
I've done around that gas line
and it's so bad that you've done

244
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,200
that.
God's sake.

245
00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:28,280
No, I'd just be saying, OK,
that's lovely for you, but thank

246
00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:29,600
you for volunteering.
I think it's really nice that

247
00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,360
you've done that for the kids.
I'm not in a position where I

248
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:32,680
can do that.
And let's just remind ourselves

249
00:09:32,680 --> 00:09:34,600
it's a voluntary role.
And if it's not going to happen

250
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,400
because you can't do it and I
can't do it, then that's not

251
00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:37,320
really up to us.
It's not our.

252
00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:38,920
Fault.
I just think it's selfish to be

253
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,480
honest with you, OK?
Whatever.

254
00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:41,880
All right.
I want to crack on with my

255
00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,080
workload now.
I'm going to do the work I need

256
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:45,360
to do.
I'm sorry, I can't commit to

257
00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:46,080
this.
It's free.

258
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:47,720
What you're talking about.
Get someone else.

259
00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:49,800
Ask somebody else.
Literally any other human being.

260
00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,000
There's no different.
It's between me and the guy down

261
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,200
the street who works at that
shop running this.

262
00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:56,280
Neither.
Of us.

263
00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:57,840
He's not.
He's not gotten past CBS.

264
00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,160
CBS and then and then say to it
and ask him to do it and then

265
00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,640
you'll feel mad because that's
how insane this is right now.

266
00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,520
You're you're just because
there's kids involved, it

267
00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:08,560
doesn't mean it's part of my
job.

268
00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:10,400
And if you really want to check
the contract, we can because

269
00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,600
it's not in there.
Imagine going to a doctor, just

270
00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,120
finishing up there like 12 hour
shift and be like, oh mate, it's

271
00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,280
a bit selfish, isn't it?
You're not, you're not just

272
00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,520
volunteering down the road to be
paramedic for the, for the event

273
00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,080
down the road at the concert.
Come on mate.

274
00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,200
I've done two of them.
Yeah, mate, you're a volunteer

275
00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,000
for the Red Cross.
Like great.

276
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,880
But it's not the doctor's job to
go and then, well, it's to do

277
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:30,040
with your job in general, isn't
it?

278
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:31,160
You're a doctor and you help
people.

279
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:32,800
So do you want to continue to
help people?

280
00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,040
Not really.
It's the end of like bye, see

281
00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:36,520
you later.
It's just, it's just mental.

282
00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,800
It's just not part of it.
And yeah, we're talking about

283
00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,560
stripping things back.
I'd say that's the first thing

284
00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:44,960
I'd do I'd, I'd go back to it
being clearly a volunteer role

285
00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:45,920
if you want that thing to
happen.

286
00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,080
And then if as a leader of a
school or parents of, of

287
00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,480
children in a school and you're
really that upset that it's not

288
00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,080
happening because you can no
longer exploit the free labour

289
00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,160
of your staff.
If you're that upset that it's

290
00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,880
happening, you can either offer
to pay them right.

291
00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,560
And if you're like, oh, I can't
afford that, but it's not that

292
00:11:00,560 --> 00:11:04,360
important then, or you can
simply set up your own PTFA.

293
00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:06,920
And those people who are so
annoyed that it's not happening

294
00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,160
because those bloody lazy
teachers are going home after

295
00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:10,960
that 12 hour day?
Run it yourself.

296
00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:11,640
They can run it.
Yeah.

297
00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:13,240
That's probably the best
argument, isn't it?

298
00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:14,240
Yeah.
All the people that are annoyed

299
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:15,680
about it not happening can run
it, Yeah.

300
00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:16,960
It can happen.
It can happen.

301
00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:18,160
Do you want to make it happen?
No, not me.

302
00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,080
Because by definition, if
there's if there's less than

303
00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:23,920
five people out of the entire
cohort of teachers and parents

304
00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,120
that are annoyed about it, then
it probably doesn't need to

305
00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:27,680
exist.
Yeah, it's fine.

306
00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:29,400
And it's whatever.
If there's more than five

307
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,720
people, let's say there's 20
people really annoyed that I'm

308
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:33,440
so guided that this is not, this
is not happening.

309
00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:34,400
OK, Run it then.
Yeah, Go on.

310
00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,200
There's enough of you.
And there you are.

311
00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:37,800
There's your party.
I don't want to do it.

312
00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,040
Yeah, I want to benefit from it.
I want to benefit from you

313
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:41,880
giving me help, your unpaid time
for my own child.

314
00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,280
Come on.
If I went to a school with Rory

315
00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,080
when I grew up and went to a
school and there were no school

316
00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,040
discos, firstly I probably were
like, all right.

317
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,360
And then if I was that like
thinking, oh, well, that would

318
00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,760
be nice, wouldn't it?
I'd would you send some messages

319
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:55,640
in the parent chat, see if we
can get to organise something?

320
00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:56,600
Should we do something for the
kids?

321
00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,840
It would come from me because
I'm the child parent.

322
00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:01,520
Yeah, yeah.
And then it's 7:00 PM.

323
00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,120
And the teacher's giving me
everything that they're meant to

324
00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,200
give me already, just from
delivering the curriculum.

325
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,280
I'm in school anyway, let's move
on.

326
00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,680
It's just the first one by the
way, should go on to the next

327
00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:11,160
one.
Let's do it.

328
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:13,200
I want you to talk to me about
written marking.

329
00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,240
We've talked, we've spoken about
written marking a lot.

330
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,600
And I'd like you just to outline
the difference here between

331
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,760
feedback, Yep, to children,
which is clearly important and

332
00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,840
part of our job, and
specifically written marking and

333
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:31,640
why we can reduce or get rid of
this without getting rid of.

334
00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:32,280
Yeah, sure.
So.

335
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,360
So feedback is a, is a much
broader term.

336
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,920
Feeding back to the children is,
is almost an essential, is an

337
00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,240
essential part of education
because that basically means

338
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,080
you're having some sort of
dialogue, some back and forth

339
00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,480
between the kids when they
complete a task or do some work

340
00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,440
or even have a discussion with
their partners or you.

341
00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,200
You wouldn't just then like go
OK and say nothing.

342
00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:53,120
Feedback is absolutely essential
because you're kind of moulding

343
00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:54,840
how they think and you're asking
them questions.

344
00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:56,480
Critical feedback is a huge part
of life.

345
00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,600
Written marking is just a prong
of feedback.

346
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:01,800
It's a way of providing
feedback.

347
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,600
It's one of a few different ways
and it very specifically

348
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,320
involves not having a
conversation.

349
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,280
Written marking is writing down
your words either on that book,

350
00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,040
on a bit of paper, on a post it
note, whatever it is you do and

351
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,960
giving it to the child to read
and interpret themselves.

352
00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,160
So that is a form of a form of
feedback.

353
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:19,560
And there's a huge argument to
say, and there's a lot of

354
00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:22,240
research and evidence that also
kind of backs this up and opens

355
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,480
this idea to that not being one,
the most effective form of

356
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,480
feedback. 2, the most efficient
form of feedback because it's

357
00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,400
very time consuming.
And three, not even needed at

358
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,160
all.
Like there's argument to say

359
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,480
that you can, you can deliver
feedback to the same efficacy

360
00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,200
without even doing anything,
anything written down.

361
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,360
So that's kind of the point
summarised, I suppose that we're

362
00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,280
going to talk, you know, dive
into a little bit more now.

363
00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,800
Yeah, I think that you've signed
up perfectly because this is the

364
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,440
point here, which is what can we
reduce what is a waste of time,

365
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,960
But the children still get
almost the same output.

366
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,400
And, and I think written marking
fits that bell so perfectly.

367
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,800
The idea of after school when
the children have gone home,

368
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,760
specifically younger children
sometimes can't even read what

369
00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,360
you're writing.
We're talking about very young

370
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,200
children, but let's just say
children in general.

371
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,960
Is is clearly, and I think quite
obviously, if you just apply

372
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,320
common sense, far less effective
than immediate verbal feedback,

373
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,760
immediate oral feedback, like in
the moment, even whether that is

374
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,160
live marking on their sheet of
paper in front of them to tell

375
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,640
them what they did wrong.
That is clearly, clearly,

376
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,800
clearly, and it's backed up by
evidence, much more effective

377
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,000
than written marking.
It doesn't mean written marking

378
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,640
has zero impact and it's just
bad.

379
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,800
What we're not saying here is
that written marking is bad and

380
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,000
can't possibly have a positive
impact on the child.

381
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,680
Yeah, we're speaking here about,
OK, well, if we want to balance

382
00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,040
this out a little bit and really
think about teacher workload as

383
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:47,320
a result, very stringent marking
policies about exactly what to

384
00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,200
write in books and how much to
write and how often.

385
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,720
To write WWW.
What went well, what went well,

386
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:53,720
even better is.
I have to do it every single

387
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:55,640
piece of writing.
You just, you just.

388
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:57,960
Well, I can't read it.
I'm teaching how to read.

389
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,280
Yeah, you've got to.
But even even if they can read

390
00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,520
it, my point is even when they
can read that and that can have

391
00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,400
a positive impact.
Yeah, very, very stringent ways

392
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:07,760
of saying you must see this in
every lesson.

393
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,400
There must be this long and have
three points.

394
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,080
It's it's pointless.
And as a professional, that bit

395
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,360
of autonomy, I suppose to choose
as and when you're giving what

396
00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,600
feedback and why it might be
more effective, but also less

397
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,520
time consuming.
I think it's vital and and that

398
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,680
comes down.
I think if I were to summarise

399
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,640
this, throwing it back to you,
the change I'd make is having

400
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,720
far less of a stringent policy
on written feedback and not

401
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,520
expecting as much.
Yeah, I think it's marketing

402
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,800
policies, isn't it?
It's something, you know,

403
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:39,120
teachers you can look at right
now.

404
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:40,480
What does your marketing policy
actually say?

405
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,480
Because first is, well, I'll
sort of dive into your point,

406
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,960
but we've we've noticed this
before.

407
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,040
There's sometimes even a
discrepancy in schools where

408
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,440
teachers have taken it upon
themselves to like over examine

409
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,000
the marketing policy and
actually added in things they

410
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,040
don't even need to be doing
based on what their school says.

411
00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,040
But that's almost like a
different point of like maybe

412
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:57,520
just go and check out your
marketing policy first.

413
00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:58,680
That's.
A good point, though, because

414
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,080
teachers tend to get into that
trap of thinking, well, I've got

415
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,800
to, it's nice to write this,
It's lovely to write that, yeah.

416
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,920
Now, you don't have to.
The huge thing is, I mean, it's

417
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,520
a massive thing is genuinely
just like how you're going to be

418
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,560
perceived.
A lot of people, Mark, and I've

419
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:14,280
just been my career and having
conversations.

420
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,200
The reason they're doing the
marking is actually more in

421
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,200
their head weighted towards,
yeah, because this is how it

422
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,800
will look, which I find mad.
And look to who?

423
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:25,320
Yeah.
So they might be thinking about

424
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,160
parents, they might be thinking
about Ofsted, they might be

425
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,360
thinking about just SLT or the
line manager, whoever it is.

426
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,200
But they're thinking about that,
that like there's no teacher

427
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,440
ever who's who's marking, who's
not actually thinking about it,

428
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:37,080
actually helping the kids.
Yeah, of course that is true.

429
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,880
But what I'm saying is I've met
teachers where almost the bigger

430
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,320
bit of waiting in their mind is
more about.

431
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:43,800
Yeah.
But what does it look like to

432
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,240
people looking through my books?
Oh, I haven't done.

433
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:47,960
I'll tell you what I haven't
done in a couple of lessons now.

434
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:49,760
I haven't done a WWWW for
everyone.

435
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,080
Yeah, OK, I'm just going to do
it in this one.

436
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:53,680
I'll do it for I'm going to take
the books home tonight and do

437
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,080
AWWW for everyone.
Not because, Oh yeah, this was a

438
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,320
really like critical lesson.
It has like such thought

439
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,200
provoking lesson.
I really want to give them this

440
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,200
feedback because of that.
And the kids, I think the kids

441
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,079
will need it for this lesson.
I'm justifying it that way.

442
00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:06,400
It's because I haven't done it
in a couple of lessons and I

443
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,640
forget my my books get looked at
and they flick through a few

444
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:10,920
pages and they're not seeing
this extended written feedback.

445
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,520
They might, they might pull me
up on.

446
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,160
That they might think that I've
not given feedback actually and

447
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,440
therefore I need to go through
and I'm going to go back from my

448
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,119
book and put verbal feedback
stamp in every lesson just to

449
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,119
show them verbal feedback.
Biggest waste of time I've ever

450
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,680
seen a verbal feedback stamp.
Have you ever taught a lesson

451
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:27,640
where you've not given verbal
feedback to a child?

452
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:29,440
Honestly, no, I don't think it's
possible.

453
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:31,280
How can you?
It's like, like you said, it's

454
00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:33,160
like the most critical part of
teaching itself.

455
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:34,800
Otherwise, I'd just be reading a
script.

456
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,000
Part of teaching is reacting,
giving feedback.

457
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:38,640
Try this out.
Like it.

458
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:40,480
Like it.
By definition, it is teaching.

459
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,400
And I find it crazy.
It's like having a stamp saying

460
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,320
I taught today.
Just gonna make sure you do.

461
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:45,440
I taught today.
By the way, we've got to stamp

462
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,080
on every lesson Mr. Price taught
today.

463
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,320
Of course I did.
What do you think I was doing?

464
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,040
It makes no sense to me.
What whatsoever to have these

465
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,200
arbitrary tick box exercises and
that's where it comes from.

466
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,360
Policy, if policy, I've seen
policies before that say at

467
00:17:58,360 --> 00:18:02,040
least three of these a week, at
least five of these a week, one

468
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,680
of these every single day.
You've got to do purple pen for

469
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,960
this and you've got to do red
pen for that and green pen for

470
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,680
these things.
It's I think we've moved a lot.

471
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,520
I think a lot of schools have
moved towards a marking policy

472
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,760
which is a lot more rooted in
maybe whole class feedback,

473
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,240
verbal feedback, far less
written, but but we still get a

474
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,320
lot of messages.
So when people say why are you

475
00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,120
talking about it, this clearly
doesn't exist.

476
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,920
See my inbox, I promise you that
this exists and there are people

477
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,120
out there burnt out because
their school is in their own

478
00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:31,960
little cave, still thinking this
is what we do.

479
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,240
It's not.
It's not what you have to do.

480
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:35,200
At all.
Yeah.

481
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,480
And I know that's true because
there are things that I'd say

482
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,160
are much worse and more toxic
that we talked about in our

483
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,480
previous episode.
And I still cannot fathom the

484
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,400
amount of people who before and
after that episode last week on

485
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,800
toxic, you know, red flags and
red roundabouts in schools.

486
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,040
How many people then afterwards
got in touch with being like,

487
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,360
oh, my God, just listen to this.
This is what happens in my

488
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:54,960
school.
And I'm sat there like

489
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,200
dumbfounded every time.
This is like, what?

490
00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,200
This is still happening.
So if those things are

491
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,040
happening, I can promise you
right now marking policies that

492
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,640
are just old school and not
really rooted in in a modern

493
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,800
research where teachers are
wasting lots of hours a week

494
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,560
writing things down, They
absolutely still exist.

495
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,600
And it's if anything is more
common than not.

496
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:16,800
So yeah, we should, we should be
talking about.

497
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,080
It, I had a colleague once who
was really worried when it came

498
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,640
to the end of the year because
obviously books get sent home

499
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,080
and, and we all send books home
on the same day.

500
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,120
And there's me like, OK, we'll
just send, send them.

501
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:30,160
I thought we'd just send them
back today.

502
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:31,480
We'll get them all ready, call
ready to go.

503
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,800
And, and my colleague was like,
no, no, no, God, no, we can't

504
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,720
send them home today.
Not why, which got like 2 days

505
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:37,720
left.
We're not going to do any book

506
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,120
work at the last two.
I, I just, I need to, I need to

507
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:42,440
just make sure my books are up
to date and just make sure they

508
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,760
look good.
Because if the parents get the

509
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,920
books at home, yeah, yeah.
They might think I've not marked

510
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,320
their books properly and they
might think that, Oh yeah, it

511
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,680
might look bad on me.
And I just thought that, Oh my

512
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,880
God, what a world we're living
in where I don't, I don't really

513
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,360
blame that teacher for thinking.
No, of course.

514
00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:57,560
But it's like embedded in that
culture of what like you've just

515
00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,760
explained, unless it seems
obvious that there have been

516
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,960
lots of takes and lots of
written feedback, you're worried

517
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,240
about what people might think
about you.

518
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,840
And I think if we just need to
like kind of collectively step

519
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,240
out of that.
And be able to say, yeah, do you

520
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,080
think that I didn't help your
kid?

521
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,640
Do you think that me writing
that in the book automatically

522
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,320
means I I did help them because
I tell you what, there are some

523
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,280
people who, like you said, Mark
books to make them look good,

524
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,680
who haven't necessarily given
the best feedback in the world.

525
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,160
And there are some people that
give fantastic feedback live,

526
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,240
live feedback, helping them in
the moment, going around the

527
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,560
class, helicoptering, helping
you help in that group when

528
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,240
we're going to really help as
many people as I can in this

529
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:33,920
lesson.
And then the books may look a

530
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,520
bit sparse, but actually I've
probably done better feedback.

531
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,840
So this idea of just like like
what a book look like equals how

532
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,080
much feedback I've given is old
school and a bit nonsense.

533
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,280
Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a
really poor assumption, isn't

534
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:46,560
it?
To make based on how much

535
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,800
writing you see in the book.
The quantity of writing is the

536
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,440
quality of feedback.
It's almost like that, isn't it?

537
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:51,800
Do you think there's a line
somewhere?

538
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,640
Because like, let's, let's say
that teacher, right?

539
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,280
And we're saying, oh, they're
unnecessarily worrying because I

540
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:57,840
presume they have been marking
all year.

541
00:20:57,880 --> 00:20:58,960
Yeah.
And they're now just worried

542
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:00,800
that it's not good enough and
they want to go back through and

543
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:02,160
top it up.
That's or they've missed a

544
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:03,440
couple or something you.
Know maybe even.

545
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,240
Yeah, yeah, maybe even that.
It was also like, oh, I've not

546
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,520
marked today.
Yeah, like, like I need to make

547
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:09,600
sure that's marked before we
send them.

548
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,440
Yeah, sure.
Let's assume though that in this

549
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,280
situation, I'm going to go sort
of right down the spectrum that

550
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,760
they have marked everything in
the year and they were and they

551
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,800
had marked today as well.
They just genuinely wanted to go

552
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:19,240
back through and check that the
market was of good enough

553
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,600
quality and there wasn't too
many gaps between like really

554
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,160
long bits of written feedback
and stuff like that.

555
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,360
But we would say this is such a
waste of time, it's really

556
00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:27,840
pointless.
How much lower can we go on this

557
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,920
scale before you think like from
an optics perspective that it

558
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,040
actually matters?
For example, the other end of

559
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,000
this scale is the complete
opposite, which is you have

560
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,600
never written in the book at
all.

561
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,800
Like there was absolutely 0
written feedback in the book.

562
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,520
Would you feel as a teacher?
Would you then still would you

563
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:50,040
feel like that teacher feels in
terms of you wouldn't want to,

564
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:51,560
you'd be a bit embarrassed to
give that back to a parent?

565
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,440
Even though, even though, and I
will preface this with you have

566
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,280
been given feedback, though this
is not, we're not making up this

567
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:57,480
teacher who doesn't give
feedback at all.

568
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,360
This feedback has exclusively
done verbal feedback and they're

569
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:01,840
giving the book back and there's
no writing it.

570
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:03,720
You need to have good
communication if that's if

571
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,720
that's the point that I think
like teachers taking it upon

572
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,240
themselves to do that in a
school where every other teacher

573
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,760
is still doing written that will
stand out and it makes sense.

574
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,880
You might feel embarrassed, but
if you are as a collective front

575
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,520
a whole school saying this is
what we do explaining it to

576
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,480
parents.
Oh, why is once my kid got no

577
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,280
marking in the book at all?
Oh, it's because of this.

578
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,400
And we all do that.
I think it has to come from

579
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,240
that.
But if it was like I'd taken on

580
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,080
myself to do it, I would then
feel a bit embarrassed, I think

581
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,680
because I'd be like, oh, I'd
have to explain myself.

582
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,040
I'd have to say why.
And yeah, I think like you said

583
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,040
it, it doesn't necessarily.
We mentioned this earlier, to be

584
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,000
fair, which is we're not saying
written feedback has a negative

585
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,720
impact.
We're not saying written

586
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,160
feedback has a neutral impact.
Written feedback does have a

587
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,280
positive impact on the children
like it does have a role to play

588
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,840
in the feedback model.
I think in a whole picture of

589
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,280
what you do is your entire year
of learning in the school.

590
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,400
So I would say actually there
should be some written feedback

591
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,880
at points when you feel it
necessary.

592
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,360
They've done maybe a big right.
You've said this before, you've

593
00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:02,400
done a big right, a big
independent right.

594
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,840
And actually for that child, me
just jotting down 123 things

595
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,160
that they need to work on, I've
done really well, very quick,

596
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,160
actionable bit of bit of praise.
I think that can be really

597
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,280
effective, but I, I, it's just
to me that the quantity clearly

598
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,000
doesn't have to be every lesson
really prescriptive.

599
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,680
So I, I, in that respect, I
would say, do you know what?

600
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,080
If there is absolutely nothing
in the book ever, I think I'd be

601
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,440
like, oh, well, there is a place
for some, OK, I don't want to

602
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,680
ruin your, your life with your
well-being in terms of making

603
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,280
you write everything every day
for three lessons a day.

604
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,520
That's ridiculous.
But there is room for some.

605
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,680
And the research does show it's
positive, but the research also

606
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,440
shows that verbal feedback, live
feedback in the moment is more

607
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,440
effective.
So I'd like to think that we'd

608
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:42,160
seen.
And more of that.

609
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:44,080
And, and if that means that
there's less writing in the

610
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,280
book, that's fine.
I mean, the way I'd summarise it

611
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,840
then, because I do, I agree and
I want to make sure people get

612
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:50,600
what like the right opinion from
us.

613
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,640
If we're not saying the
different thing is that the

614
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,920
majority of written feedback can
be replaced with a more

615
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:57,560
efficient feedback.
I think that's the point we're

616
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,600
trying to make.
You can save teachers time

617
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,200
without actually changing the
outcome for children.

618
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,720
Like why wouldn't you do that by
by introducing things like live

619
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,520
feedback, verbal feedback.
I want to ask you one more

620
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,760
question because I want to get
into your brain a little bit

621
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:12,760
because you know, you taught for
nine years.

622
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,000
Give me a like a, just a, just
an idea of how your marking

623
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,000
changed or maybe it didn't over
the years.

624
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,520
Like do you feel like you fell
into the trap of that some of

625
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,480
the things we've been saying?
Or do you feel like you've

626
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,360
always been on it with marking?
Do you think that changed?

627
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:27,600
Did your marking get better,
worse?

628
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,160
Like how?
Like what's your journey being

629
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,720
with marking?
When I started marking, it was

630
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,160
very much, I felt like as the
teacher, I was the voice of

631
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,120
authority, therefore I was the
person that had to mark

632
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:39,240
everything in every situation.
I had to mark it.

633
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,840
And I also felt like I had to
write a comment.

634
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,640
I had to do something for every
lesson.

635
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:44,960
For every lesson.
Yeah, 100%.

636
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,080
I'd be writing a sentence being
like, and it could be, we could

637
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,200
have maybe done an RE lesson on
Sikhism and I'd write a sentence

638
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:51,920
saying brilliant work on
Sikhism.

639
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:53,920
Honestly, complete waste of
time.

640
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:56,640
So what if I'm thinking about
how it changed over time?

641
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,000
I guess it's 2 prongs, 1.
I became much more meaningful in

642
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,760
what I wrote in the book,
whether that's more efficient or

643
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,080
whether that is simply just.
I thought to myself, me writing

644
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,560
this will mean that.
So the kid reading this, they

645
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,320
will go back and fix something.
The kid reading that, they'll

646
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,640
feel good about the effort they
put in that lesson, whatever it

647
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:15,920
is.
Yeah.

648
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,200
And it was more weighted to next
steps, fixing stuff.

649
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,560
And there was the odd bit of
praise and stuff in there

650
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:22,800
because I still think that's
important.

651
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,800
But I think a lot of my praise,
the way I taught the children

652
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:26,840
were getting praise all the
time.

653
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,160
I was very, very good.
That's a really important thing

654
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,080
to clarify because when you said
a minute ago a complete waste of

655
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,120
time writing in the kids book
about Sikhism, oh, great work on

656
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:35,360
Sikhism.
I can imagine people going what,

657
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,720
you don't think it's good to,
it's worth your time.

658
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,520
But of course you do.
You're doing it verbally all the

659
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:41,360
time.
That's the point.

660
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:42,920
Exactly that.
And it comes to marking.

661
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:44,800
The kids know well, what can I
fix?

662
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,680
Mr. Price has already praised me
15 times.

663
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,600
It's less and I feel comfortable
and it's less and I'm happy I'm

664
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,320
here.
Oh, he's given me this to fix.

665
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,200
I'll go and do that.
Like it's a whole picture.

666
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,920
And that's when, if you just
judge written feedback, that's

667
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:56,640
when it's problematic because
you miss stuff.

668
00:25:57,120 --> 00:25:59,280
And it's like, and if you assume
because it's not in the written

669
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,440
feedback that it doesn't exist,
that's poor, I think.

670
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,720
And that's bad.
Like if you're a leader doing

671
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,560
that assumption on like, mate,
just come and watch me.

672
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,760
Come and watch me for half a
lesson, you'll realise these

673
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:09,800
kids aren't missing out on
praise.

674
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,040
Like, come on, it's not an
issue.

675
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,640
But I became, yeah, I became
more effective in terms of that.

676
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,600
But I also realised I think more
the power of live marking, the

677
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,480
power of doing stuff in the
lesson and you know, things like

678
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,040
self marking.
I did a lot more self marking in

679
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,080
lessons with the children,
especially in maths, for

680
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,400
example, right, the thing about
maths where it's like it's right

681
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,400
or wrong.
We did an arithmetic test call

682
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,360
got here are the answers.
Off we go, let's mark it

683
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:33,160
together.
And I could go around and see

684
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:34,640
what the children are getting
right or wrong.

685
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,160
I could then change my lessons
for the future in that moment.

686
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,040
And I know I could just do it
off paced or I could actually in

687
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,080
that very second go, OK, these
these four kids all got this

688
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,040
group of questions wrong.
You're going to sit with the

689
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:46,880
teaching assistant today and
you're going to get a bit of

690
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,360
extra support.
Or it might be I'm going to run

691
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:49,880
a group later on in in assembly
time.

692
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,920
I'm going to keep you guys back.
It became more effective.

693
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,200
So I guess what I'm saying is in
terms of my feedback, as I went

694
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,040
through my career, it moved
towards efficacy.

695
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,480
I moved away from performance
and towards efficacy.

696
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,560
And it was like every single
choice I made in my feedback.

697
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,920
Yeah, obviously sometimes I
thought to myself, I saw on the

698
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,160
mark for two hours and, and I'll
be honest with you, there'll be

699
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,320
some, there'll be some lessons
where I just did not mark it.

700
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,280
And the reason I did not mark it
is not because I'm just lazy.

701
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,600
I'm going to get away with it.
It's because I genuinely thought

702
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,480
in that moment, this is not
worth my time to do right now.

703
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,160
It's going to have minimal
impact because this is just a

704
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:28,960
one off lesson.
There's no kind of, there might

705
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,600
not be a progression there where
tomorrow you need to know this

706
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,680
because tomorrow you won't be
able to carry on with your work.

707
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,000
I always marked maths, for
example, I always met that in

708
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,120
English work where we had a
progression of learning.

709
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,920
If there was a lesson in DT
where they needed feedback for

710
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,080
tomorrow, I would mark it.
But there were obviously

711
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,600
sometimes where I was just like,
this isn't worth me sat down

712
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,000
marking these books while these
kids aren't here.

713
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,440
So I didn't do it.
And I could always back it up by

714
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,360
saying, yeah, because of this,
this and this.

715
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,880
And and I think that that's the
word efficacy.

716
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:58,640
I became way more effective, way
more pragmatic and just realised

717
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,320
that marking is one part of my
job as a teacher.

718
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,920
I've got 15 parts, I've got
planning to think about.

719
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,080
I've got delivery to think
about.

720
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,920
I've got, you know, I might have
that day three EHC PS: to

721
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,080
review.
OK, I've got 3 HCPS to review.

722
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,640
If I can say it.
If I've got 3 Ehcps to review

723
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,880
and a part of geography and
history marking, I'm not gonna

724
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,280
do the marking that day.
Yeah, because in my head,

725
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,040
clearly it was something more
important there that needs

726
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,360
doing.
So that goes in the back burner

727
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,080
and that's what I learned.
I have to think about the whole

728
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,320
picture.
Marking is 1 chunk of the

729
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,480
picture and as soon as you
realise that and think it's give

730
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,760
and take, instead of trying to
spin 15 plates at once, you just

731
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,760
have 15 plates but you know you
can only spin 6.

732
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:41,320
I'm gonna stop spinning that
plate.

733
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,240
I need to spin this one now.
I don't have to keep them all

734
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,520
going at once.
One thing can leave.

735
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,520
And marking became when I knew
what was more effective, I was

736
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,040
able to drop that plate because
I thought that's less effective.

737
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:53,560
Now I'm going to focus on
something else.

738
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,040
Oh wait, no.
Tomorrow though, the markings

739
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:56,840
really important comes back on.
I won't do this.

740
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,480
Instead, an easy analogy is
like, imagine this, there's

741
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,240
always 12 hours of things that
you could do that could have

742
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,400
some impact to children, some
more than others, but you've

743
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,400
only got 6 hours.
Just imagine that as a, as a, as

744
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,400
a silly anecdote, you've only
got 6 hours and you're

745
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,400
constantly as a teacher, you're
having to choose, you're

746
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,560
constantly choosing.
I can't do everything all the

747
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,600
time.
So which ones have the most

748
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,400
impact?
And sometimes marking is at the

749
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,040
bottom of that pile, which is
kind of what is, that's how I'm

750
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:22,360
imagining what you're saying
because I agree.

751
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,840
There were times in my career
where I, I had, you know, 12

752
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,120
hours stuff to do.
Three of those hours was marking

753
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,280
but I just couldn't fit them
into my 3 hours of time.

754
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,800
I actually had stuff to do and
it just think it was like OK

755
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,240
these.
Otherwise you only Mark.

756
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,040
Yeah.
And it's like, OK, well, I do

757
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:39,520
have to prepare my lessons for
tomorrow.

758
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,400
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I do have to
do other stuff.

759
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:42,800
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, Yeah, I think it's a good

760
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:43,760
one.
And there's one other thing you

761
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:45,600
said that made me think, that
made me remember.

762
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:46,800
So I want to get your opinions
on this.

763
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,560
You know how you said there
might have been a situation

764
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,320
where there was history and
geography lesson and you just

765
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,360
didn't mark it because it wasn't
in that there was more impactful

766
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,000
things you could have done with
your time, a good decision to

767
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,960
make.
I've seen so many teachers in my

768
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,240
career have a like their own
little internal like cheeky

769
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,080
policies that they're like, Oh,
I'll find a way around this

770
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,560
where they're like, I just leave
all my lessons to Friday and

771
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:05,720
then I just mark them all on
Friday.

772
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,320
And I've, I've my gut reactions.
At first, I was always asked

773
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,440
quite clever because you can
just my bulk market.

774
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,640
And then my immediate next one
was, what's the point though,

775
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,440
right?
Because I was like, Eva, Eva,

776
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,000
you're doing the marking because
you're going to give them

777
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,160
basically instant feedback.
And by instant, I mean the next

778
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,520
time they see you in that lesson
and they can action it straight

779
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,800
away or there's no point.
Yeah.

780
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,680
So when they were saying, yeah,
I used to do did it or I just

781
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,600
marked all three lessons, you
know, at the end of my fortnight

782
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,720
or something after teaching as a
unit, I do a whole unit and then

783
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,600
I mark all their geography.
I'm like, there's no point now.

784
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:32,960
Yeah, you might as well not at
that point.

785
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,760
To me, that's just assessment,
not feedback.

786
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,560
That's not feedback anymore in
my opinion, because I think

787
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,160
feedback is should be a loop.
I think feedback is OK.

788
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:41,160
Yeah, well done.
You did that.

789
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:42,880
Keep doing it.
Oh, no, you didn't quite do

790
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:44,120
this.
Try again like that.

791
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,600
To me, feedback's a loop,
whereas assessment is just yeah,

792
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,200
I'm going to judge.
You and the quicker they get it,

793
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,120
the better.
Yeah, I think that's quite a

794
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:51,800
tangible thing you can say.
It's like the quicker they get

795
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,400
the feedback after you do it,
the better, which is why there's

796
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,680
such a positive move towards
verbal feedback because it's so

797
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,400
instant.
Yeah, there's like so much

798
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,120
weight in the fact that it's
instant that it kind of

799
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,400
outweighs even the written
version of that feedback because

800
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,680
they get that a day later.
And that's still useful, but not

801
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:05,480
as useful.
Yeah.

802
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,320
And yeah, I think that person,
when you've missed the boat of

803
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,760
marking sometimes as well you
could.

804
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,560
OK, so there could be like a
hierarchy here, right.

805
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,240
So the optimal outcome is
actually you did the written

806
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,480
feedback for that lesson and
they got it the next day before

807
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,160
they did their next lesson
because it helps them with what

808
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:20,680
they're doing next.
And that's optimal.

809
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,480
But then if you miss that, if
you miss that window of of

810
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,240
marking, right, it kind of
becomes pointless.

811
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,280
Yeah.
Like, so, so like, OK, the next

812
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:30,520
thing is, OK, just don't mark
it.

813
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,520
Just don't mark it.
And at the start of the next

814
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,000
lesson, give them just generic
feedback that might hit most of

815
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,600
the children in the.
Class tackle the feedback a

816
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:38,360
different way.
Exactly.

817
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:39,960
That's the next thing where it's
like, I'm still going to give

818
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:41,160
you feedback.
I didn't get time to mark it

819
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,200
properly, but in general, what I
noticed yesterday was this, this

820
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:45,600
and this.
So let's work on those things.

821
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,840
It's going to hit most kids.
That's not necessarily optimal,

822
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:50,440
but it's still a good thing to
do.

823
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,960
The worst thing to do is then
wait until the whole unit is

824
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,000
finished and then go back to
maybe the first lesson and say

825
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:57,680
all well done, try capital
letters.

826
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,320
So well, yeah, wait, no, they
needed that before they did the

827
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,760
next 5 lessons.
So that becomes performative

828
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,120
then.
And it goes back to what I said

829
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,120
before.
When I'm thinking about feedback

830
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,240
and marking to me, I'm thinking
of a scale which goes from

831
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,920
performative to efficacy, right?
And I'm thinking, okay, I want

832
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,560
to be towards more efficacy.
If I can't be 100% effective, I

833
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,240
at least want to be 80%.
I at least want to be 70%.

834
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,040
And there might be a choice I
make which seems bad, but

835
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,560
actually I'd just be doing it
for the sake of doing it.

836
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,680
And it's like, OK, it's lost its
importance now.

837
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,120
I'm just going to reset and try
again tomorrow because I'm a

838
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:31,320
teacher.
I'm not trying to get out of

839
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:32,680
stuff.
I'm just trying to do what's

840
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,440
more effective for my time and
the kids.

841
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:35,960
Absolutely.
And if you like this discussion,

842
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,560
I feel like what you can do
then, no matter who you are, is

843
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,840
just start this conversation in
your school, genuinely have this

844
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,240
conversation.
Maybe you're maybe you're a

845
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:43,960
leader and you're listening and
thinking, do you know what?

846
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:45,240
Let's review this.
Let's think about this.

847
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,040
Like how efficient is our
marketing policy?

848
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,760
How many teachers are wasting
their time performing for me?

849
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,400
Yeah.
And the parents so that when

850
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:52,840
actually they could be doing
something more useful.

851
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,040
And that's, that's all we want.
We try and do this podcast.

852
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:56,520
Hopefully it sparks conversation
in your school.

853
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,440
Well, one other thing they can
do is leave us a review wherever

854
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,080
they're still a podcast.
That'll help, that helps with

855
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,600
the changes wherever you're
listening, guys, leave us a

856
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,800
review down below.
OK, right.

857
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,600
Number #3 I don't know how far
we're into this.

858
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,320
Number one, I want to throw this
over to you because I feel this

859
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,320
is a passion for you, OK?
When things we can get rid of,

860
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,040
waste of time is aesthetic
changes to lesson planning.

861
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:26,560
How notebooks and PowerPoints
literally look because oh, we've

862
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,920
got to get this to be trust wide
consistent now it needs to have

863
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,080
the same colour background and
the font needs to be the same.

864
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,880
Over to you.
Look, it's something we've

865
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,360
mentioned many times because we
are passionate about it and it

866
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,760
still happens literally all the
time.

867
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,640
The content of your lesson is
important.

868
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,760
Honest honestly that there is
there is a small scale I think

869
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,840
where like the way your
PowerPoint looks, it has it's

870
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,440
slightly important if I just
gave the kids like aerial font

871
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,880
all size 12 and everything.
I'm going to push back

872
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,040
immediately.
There's nothing wrong with

873
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,520
aerial font.
OK, All right, that's fine.

874
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:04,920
I'm trying.
I was just trying to think of

875
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,760
like a really like a small like
Times.

876
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,480
I don't know why I said font,
but just like a small like on

877
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,120
the screen, it's just all there.
It's all bullet points, all the

878
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:13,960
points you're going to say like
kids can't really read it.

879
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,159
There is a thing to say that
maybe if it was just chunked up

880
00:34:17,159 --> 00:34:19,320
a bit better and over a / a
couple of slides.

881
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,320
But that becomes pedagogy.
That's fine.

882
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:22,840
Yeah.
That becomes pedagogy.

883
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,440
And we're talking about
aesthetic.

884
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:25,480
Yeah.
We're talking about literal

885
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,520
choices on how things look.
What you're saying is cognitive

886
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,159
load.
I think we all agree that's

887
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:32,000
important and that that's.
You're kind of.

888
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:33,719
Yeah, you.
This is where we're conflating

889
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,840
this argument straight away.
This is why I get wound up so

890
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,320
quickly is because people will
listen to us say this and say

891
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,600
the kind of things you're saying
now, which is like, yeah, well,

892
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,120
we don't want it all on one
side, do we?

893
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:43,520
Too small and the kids get loads
of text.

894
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,239
Obviously not.
That's not what I'm talking.

895
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,040
About South presentational
stuff, then it's stuff like what

896
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,520
I used to do early in my career.
I always spent hours right

897
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,560
pulling like little like
coloured boxes around my texts

898
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,760
and like making, making
something bold and, and

899
00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,240
underlining that one because I
thought it looked nice.

900
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:01,800
And maybe putting a little icon
in the corner to be like, oh,

901
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,760
this is like the kids were like
this because it refers to the,

902
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:04,840
the thing they're doing right
now.

903
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,640
And then I'd make the background
of that one green, but I might

904
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:08,520
make the next one pink.
So on the next background to be

905
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,760
pink because I think that looks
like that sort of stuff.

906
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,200
I stopped doing that over time
and it made and I realised it

907
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,920
made absolutely no difference
whatsoever because the content,

908
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,880
my delivery far outweighed yeah,
how pretty the screen was.

909
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,640
Yeah, so the thing that is a
massive waste of time, there's

910
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,080
two prongs to this really isn't
there?

911
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,360
Number one is just doing it in
the first place.

912
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,760
Not honestly, if you spent three
hours planning a lesson instead

913
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:33,680
of two hours planning a lesson
and the only difference is

914
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:34,960
literally you just dragging like
colour.

915
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,280
The trust logos, the.
Trust logos and yeah just little

916
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,640
things where like just like tiny
aesthetic things that don't

917
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,720
actually make any difference
that's one thing you can just

918
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:43,720
stop doing straight away The
worst one the one that really

919
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:46,320
gets us riled up is when a less.
You've already done the planning

920
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,680
for a lesson and it's completely
fine and the content's great and

921
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,520
the cognitive load is all that
stuff has already been thought

922
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,000
about that the font is the right
size, they can actually read it

923
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,800
from the back of the classroom.
You've did nicely.

924
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,840
You've got you whatever pictures
that go with your font, You've

925
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,440
got all the stuff on there.
It's full.

926
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,120
Of coding, which we think is
still good.

927
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,240
All the evidence says your
coding is great.

928
00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:04,360
That's fantastic.
We're not talking about that

929
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,560
and.
Then someone comes along in your

930
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,680
school and goes, do you know
what I think we need to do?

931
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,120
I think it would be better if
not only the backgrounds matched

932
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,480
our school colour because I just
think that'd be really, really

933
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,400
nice.
I think we should start using

934
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,120
this font instead because
actually I've seen that dyslexic

935
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,440
people struggle with reading non
cursive font and they they start

936
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,760
saying something that's not even
true and they're saying we now,

937
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,320
we now need to.
Someone told me, my mate told me

938
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,720
that it's better to show them
cursive writing because then

939
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:36,760
then children struggle with the
handwriting.

940
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,160
Yeah.
It's, it's yeah, yeah, again,

941
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,960
it's again, you're saying stuff
where I'm like, actually I would

942
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,560
be triggered by that.
If someone said it's better for

943
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,360
dyslexic people for this, fine,
but but it but it's not.

944
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,120
And and this the issue, people
don't necessarily come along and

945
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,640
say cursive font is better for
dyslexic children to read.

946
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,040
They don't even say that like,
because it's not, it's, it's

947
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:56,480
like for a fact.
It's a really.

948
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,640
Clarify, my point here was
people saying stuff that's not

949
00:36:58,640 --> 00:36:59,080
true.
Yeah, yeah.

950
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,120
But obviously doing stuff for
dyslexic kids is good.

951
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,640
But they they more come up, come
along and we'll say, Oh well,

952
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,080
it'll be nice, won't it, for the
kids to see cursive because we

953
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,200
want them to do cursive.
It'll be nice, won't it, for

954
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,400
them to see it.
And it's like, that's a great

955
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:15,120
decision for you but like it's
grounded in 0 research and also

956
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,280
you are now choosing to make me
completely waste my time because

957
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,800
the lessons are already there.
So your choice here is just

958
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,240
adding workload to me.
Not only does it not affect the

959
00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:27,800
children, it potentially effects
them negatively.

960
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,520
And you're wasting my time.
So like, I think it's really

961
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,160
important to be thinking about
what helps dyslexic children

962
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:34,720
read.
If a font came along and

963
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:37,080
actually it was better for
dyslexic readers, I think

964
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,280
there's an argument to have that
you actually, you know what you

965
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:39,760
should.
Just do it.

966
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,240
There is that distillation font,
isn't there?

967
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:43,240
Exactly.
And but there's there's various

968
00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:45,080
research for that that says
maybe it's not as effective.

969
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,840
Yeah, I've seen, I've seen, I've
seen pros and cons.

970
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,040
My point is when something is a
preference rather than actually

971
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:53,440
embedded at anything whatsoever.
Yeah.

972
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:54,880
Yeah.
And then someone comes along and

973
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,640
said, well, it's my preference.
I kind of like, I'd kind of like

974
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,280
all the smarts to be the same,
actually.

975
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,840
I mean, that's fantastic.
Well done.

976
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:03,000
Yeah.
What's it grounded in?

977
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,680
Ah, not much, Just I like my.
I Scroll down the road to this

978
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,400
font and that it's.
It's good.

979
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,200
It looks nice.
OK, cool.

980
00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:12,480
And I think your biggest gripe,
I'd like to talk about cursive

981
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:13,680
fonts.
If anyone listening.

982
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,240
Cursive fonts are fonts that
look like it's joined up

983
00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:17,040
handwriting.
Yeah.

984
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,720
And the usual arguments are not
that it helps individual, but

985
00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:23,560
it's that it's modelling to the
kids what cursive handwriting

986
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,000
looks like.
So they do it themselves Maybe.

987
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,080
But what's the what's the point?
Do we go into the library as I

988
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,120
send all these books back?
They're not written in cursive.

989
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:33,440
It's funny.
How on earth can we?

990
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,160
Can we possibly do?
It I need to rant for a second,

991
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,200
I'm going into rant mode.
That is my biggest thing.

992
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,880
When someone first said to me,
and I had no previous knowledge

993
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,920
of this, someone first said to
me years and years and years

994
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:44,720
ago, oh, we should write in
cursive.

995
00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:47,160
We should have all our displays
and all of our smart notebooks

996
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,560
and all of our presentations.
Everything around the school

997
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,040
that was showing kids should be
in cursive.

998
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:52,360
Fun place.
Yeah, just.

999
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:53,440
I was like.
Oh, there's.

1000
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,400
No font on my displays at all.
How do I change the font for

1001
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,400
blank call?
What's that?

1002
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,800
Yeah.
Scratching my head, but in fact,

1003
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,240
someone first said that my
instant gut reaction was why are

1004
00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:10,520
no books ever written in this?
If this is better for kids And,

1005
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:11,920
and you know what?
There's two prongs for this

1006
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,160
because I, I, I appreciate this.
So I might just be going down

1007
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,560
the line of we want kids to
write in cursive, so we should

1008
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,440
model it to them with all the
stuff they look at.

1009
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,400
If that's that only line of
thought, OK, I can see why they

1010
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,920
thought that.
But the next prong to me is if

1011
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,760
it's better for kids or even
just the same, then we'd at

1012
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,760
least see some books written in
cursive writing.

1013
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,120
It doesn't.
It doesn't happen.

1014
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,640
There's a reason for it.
It's because it's not better.

1015
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,720
It's harder to read.
And I'll tell you what you said

1016
00:39:35,720 --> 00:39:37,800
that maybe that you were being
kind earlier about the research.

1017
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,240
I have read research that says
it's literally worse.

1018
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,960
It is harder to read on average.
The average person finds it

1019
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,040
harder to read cursive font than
they do non cursive.

1020
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,280
Just to be clear, I meant the
dyslexic font specifically, Yes,

1021
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:50,600
but that I've seen mixed stuff
about that.

1022
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,640
But I absolutely agree.
The everything I've read about

1023
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,080
cursive font is it's harder to
read.

1024
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,880
And I'm like, we are in, you
know, we're in a primary school

1025
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,160
for children where our main aim
is to teach children to read.

1026
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:00,960
Yeah, like it's just crazy to
me.

1027
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,720
Do you know what we can do when
it comes to modelling

1028
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:04,480
handwriting?
We should do, We should model

1029
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,760
the handwriting.
You know, like actually model

1030
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:08,760
it.
Model handwriting isn't printing

1031
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,320
off a display that has.
That's not modelling handwriting

1032
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:12,520
as if kids are looking at that
to.

1033
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:13,600
Get that?
So true.

1034
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:15,560
Like when when we're if we're
teaching handwriting, I want

1035
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:16,920
them to do the best handwriting
they can.

1036
00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:20,160
They should be watching the
teacher forming the F, forming

1037
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:21,440
the G.
What do we do?

1038
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,040
We go up and down instead of
just looking.

1039
00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:25,920
If I was a kid looking at that,
I'd be thinking, how do I do I

1040
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,040
write that G?
Do I start here?

1041
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:28,040
Yeah.
Do I go backward?

1042
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,320
No.
Look, if I'm teaching

1043
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,400
handwriting, I'm going to model
it to you.

1044
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,640
And then you pick up your book
and it's not written in cursive

1045
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,160
font.
Then you sit your key stage 2

1046
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,240
SAT papers and then not written
in cursive font.

1047
00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:39,280
Nothing is.
It's nothing is because it's not

1048
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,800
a thing to read.
It's a thing to write and it's

1049
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,880
the way of writing.
And fine being able to read it

1050
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,320
fine.
Honestly, if some stuff was in

1051
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,360
that font, fine.
But you know what is insane is

1052
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,120
when you have planned a
curriculum out, you've got all

1053
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,080
your notebook slides, you've got
everything you can possibly need

1054
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:55,480
on PowerPoint.
It's all there.

1055
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,800
It's ready to go and rub my
hands like I'm so ready to teach

1056
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,240
this week.
By the way, new directive.

1057
00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:00,520
Everything needs to be in this
font please.

1058
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:01,520
Yeah, no.
What?

1059
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:02,920
Do you mean?
Yeah, everything's been this

1060
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:03,840
font.
I've already planned it.

1061
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:04,720
Yeah, everything's been this
font.

1062
00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:06,000
Thank you.
Gotta change it all over.

1063
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:07,560
Why?
Just because we thought it might

1064
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:08,960
be good.
Did you think about it more than

1065
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:10,080
5 seconds?
No, but do.

1066
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:11,560
It, yeah, but do it.
Though that's going to, that's

1067
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,160
going to cost me hours and hours
and hours of my time on top of

1068
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,920
the I'm already maxed out and
you're asking me to do something

1069
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,200
on top that you haven't thought
about, isn't grounded in

1070
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:19,880
research.
Yeah.

1071
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:21,920
And it's going to cost me so
much extra time.

1072
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:23,920
Like, just have some decency to
think about that.

1073
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,080
It's actually rude.
Do you remember back when it was

1074
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,920
so this, this kind of thing was
introduced in our school, Like

1075
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:31,640
it's been introduced in every
school I've been in, by the way.

1076
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:33,520
It's like very common.
So I'm not digging anyone out

1077
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,480
because we've talked about why
we think it might be useful.

1078
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:37,120
But it was introduced in our
school.

1079
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,320
And as maths leads, we were
asked, oh, what about for math

1080
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:42,360
slides?
Do you think we need it?

1081
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,360
And I should be like no?
Yeah, yeah.

1082
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,920
No, we don't.
We don't need it like, oh, but

1083
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,720
for consistency, I was like, no.
I'm pretty sure I'm not

1084
00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:52,240
sarcastic.
That didn't, didn't, didn't I

1085
00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:56,400
reply to the e-mail to everyone
and say something like no, don't

1086
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,240
use it, please don't use it
because we want kids to be able

1087
00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:00,640
to read it or something like
that.

1088
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,640
Something really.
Horrible, but but idiot.

1089
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,440
No, no, but like the point.
Yeah, maybe you went too far,

1090
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,120
probably, but but my point is
just like, yeah, I just.

1091
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,120
I just think that aesthetic
level, we can have discussions

1092
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,080
about everything.
Dual coding is not what I'm

1093
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:18,640
talking about.
That's not aesthetics to me.

1094
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,000
That is putting a simple picture
next to a vocabulary word.

1095
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:23,360
You want the kiss to remember.
That helps them.

1096
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:25,040
It's embedded in research.
There's a place for it.

1097
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,440
It makes sense, OK, But very
purely aesthetic stuff, which

1098
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,240
also in the research has no or
negative impact.

1099
00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:34,360
Just because we think it's nice.
I was like, we should never be

1100
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,120
doing anything like that,
especially and we have to not

1101
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:38,840
forget this when it impacts
workload.

1102
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,000
If it's going to impact
workload, boy oh boy, you better

1103
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,040
be showing me evidence that this
is massively impacting the

1104
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,680
children, because if it's equal
or negative, it's the worst of

1105
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,920
both worlds.
I don't have time to do this and

1106
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,560
it's not helping.
A complete waste of time, which

1107
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,520
is the theme of this episode.
I think linked into this is our

1108
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,920
next one, which is about
replanning everything.

1109
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,240
And then we talking about now
how you can have initiatives and

1110
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:06,160
maybe we can move more into this
idea of, well, actually embedded

1111
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:07,880
in researches.
We should do this in English

1112
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:09,720
now, but also embedded in
researches.

1113
00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:10,960
The way we teach math isn't
quite right.

1114
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:12,000
So maybe we should change this
now.

1115
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,680
And also based on this research
I saw and all of this is

1116
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,120
embedded in research, which is
really positive.

1117
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,200
But it turns out that actually
that means we need to replan

1118
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,680
everything all at once.
Why is that a bad idea?

1119
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,560
Because could not someone say,
well it's all positive, just get

1120
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,960
on with it mate.
Yeah, I so bearing in mind the

1121
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,040
stuff we've just said, because
to me, if you were talking about

1122
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:32,760
replanning everything, I'd
normally think of the stuff we

1123
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,240
just said like that's a big
waste of time.

1124
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,720
I find this one harder to to
argue because I think it, I

1125
00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:39,960
think someone saying what you
just said is completely

1126
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,640
reasonable to say this would all
be better now and it's all based

1127
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,400
in research.
So we should, yeah, we should,

1128
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,480
we should replan it.
My problem is when it all comes

1129
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,480
at once, I almost don't have, I
don't have the problem with the

1130
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,880
idea that stuff needs to be
replanned.

1131
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,840
I have a problem with two
things.

1132
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,440
One, when it's rushed and
actually hilariously they're not

1133
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,480
very efficient because it has to
be planned again the next year

1134
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,120
and then replanned again the
next year because no one

1135
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,040
actually just had the foresight
to stop and think about it

1136
00:44:04,240 --> 00:44:07,840
properly first.
And two is the, is the workload

1137
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,920
burden that comes with generally
replanning anything and then not

1138
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,640
as leaders not assessing that
and being like, oh, we're going

1139
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,120
to replay maths and English at
the same time.

1140
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,080
Like obviously that is an
absolutely dreadful thing to do.

1141
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:20,800
And I'll tell you why it's a
dreadful thing to do because

1142
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,080
even with the best teachers in
the world, that planning is not

1143
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:24,960
going to be good enough to, to
your standards.

1144
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:26,960
It's not because you've given
them too much workload to do.

1145
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,160
There are, there are finite
hours in the day.

1146
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:34,200
And if you asked someone to do
26 hours of work in 24 hours, by

1147
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,440
definition, it's not going to be
as good because they've had to

1148
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,400
cream off 2 hours somewhere.
Now, it's not as optimal as it

1149
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,240
would have been.
There's just no, there's,

1150
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,560
there's so many drawbacks and
downsides with any teacher ever

1151
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,960
to asking them to replan too
much stuff at once.

1152
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,840
So yeah, kind of about four
things at once there, but you

1153
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:51,760
know.
No, I think I, I find this

1154
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,400
really interesting because this
is where I think it, it's like,

1155
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,600
you see a lot of this like edges
space online, these people who

1156
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,600
are like massively into their
research and all they care about

1157
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:03,560
is outcomes.
And, and it's like that's the

1158
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,040
end of the conversation.
Like if the conversation says

1159
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,400
there's new, there's a new body
of research that says, actually

1160
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,840
this way of, you know, planning
a mass essence is better.

1161
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,200
Therefore we need to do it
today.

1162
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:14,800
We need to do it yesterday and
get it done.

1163
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,080
But also at the same time, so is
English and their life is almost

1164
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,520
around academia.
I'm like that.

1165
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,000
That is, do you know what?
I'm glad people like you exist

1166
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,280
because we need people to read
and interpret this research

1167
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:26,880
because not every teacher has
time to do that.

1168
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,800
It's fantastic what you're
doing, but you have to just

1169
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,760
stop.
You have to just stop and think

1170
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,000
for a minute.
But but I can't do all this at

1171
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,200
once because you are very much
living in an idealistic world.

1172
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,440
And I've seen too many times
people whose life is academia

1173
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,840
and their life is their teaching
job, who then projects that onto

1174
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:47,080
the rest of the staff in a
school who are maybe in a

1175
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,400
leadership role because they
they work for it, they live for

1176
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:50,240
it.
It's what they want.

1177
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,800
And and they don't genuinely
just don't have that foresight

1178
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,880
to think, oh, but it's not the
life of everyone here that the

1179
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,880
people in this room aren't
defined by academia and their

1180
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:02,760
love of research and their love
of teaching.

1181
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,760
They like teaching, They're good
at teaching their professionals.

1182
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:07,920
But goodness me, they've got a
life.

1183
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,280
So you coming along and just
saying, well, it's embedded in

1184
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,800
the research, guys, crack on.
It's not good enough.

1185
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:14,960
And there's one more argument to
this as well that people really

1186
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,920
don't like to hear, which is
sometimes it's still not worth

1187
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,680
it there.
There is actually a space for

1188
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:22,640
this argument that, yeah, this
research comes along and says

1189
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,240
this is now the optimal way of
doing it and the way you're

1190
00:46:25,240 --> 00:46:28,520
doing it is ever so slightly
suboptimal.

1191
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,400
And it's it goes back to that
thing you said, right the start

1192
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,560
of this episode.
Some things you can measure that

1193
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,320
you can say, yeah, this will be
a bit better, but it's just not

1194
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,160
worth the time, so just don't do
it.

1195
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,160
There is a there is an argument
to say there's that replanning

1196
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:46,240
the entire geography curriculum
if it only has a 1% positive

1197
00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:49,360
impact on the outcomes of those
children, but it requires on

1198
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,920
average four extra hours a week
of all your teachers doing

1199
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,160
replanning for the whole year.
It's not worth it.

1200
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:55,680
Don't do it.
Yeah, it's lovely that research

1201
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,560
says that, but fortunately for
us, we've already got a really,

1202
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,280
really positive, great way of
doing it and we, and it's just

1203
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:02,720
not worth that little bump up
for us.

1204
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,360
Another school it might be they
might look at that and go, that

1205
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,800
is a marked improvement that is
going to have an enormous impact

1206
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:10,680
on our kids because the current
geography curriculum is just

1207
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,320
dreadful.
We we've really out of date.

1208
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:13,640
We've really left this too long,
guys.

1209
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:14,880
We should have looked at this a
decade ago.

1210
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,680
You know, we're so outdated.
This is worth our time doing now

1211
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:18,880
you know and.
They're up to date with their

1212
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:20,400
English and maths.
They're not making six changes

1213
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:20,760
at once.
Yes.

1214
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:22,960
There's certainly layers to it
and like, you just got to just

1215
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,680
adjust, look at everything, you
know, and don't just make

1216
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:27,880
decisions on a whim like that.
They're the leaders that have

1217
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,920
annoyed me the most, not just in
our career, but like from

1218
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,160
hearing from other people.
Yeah, rushing through stuff,

1219
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,200
just rush through stuff.
And they just don't think about

1220
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:37,200
the impact we're having the kids
versus the time it takes.

1221
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,640
So there's one quick thing on
lesson plans, just whilst

1222
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:40,600
talking about replanning
everything.

1223
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,640
Ofsted does not require lesson
plans and the DfE workload

1224
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,680
review group literally said
planning should be a thinking

1225
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:48,200
process and not a written
product.

1226
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,960
So even that replanning
everything, part of it is, you

1227
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,640
know, you're asking teachers to
write written plans for

1228
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:55,320
absolutely everything, even when
they've already done their

1229
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,200
slides and they've already got
their medium term plan.

1230
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,440
Complete waste of time, guys.
Just don't do it.

1231
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:01,000
It's not something that is
needed.

1232
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:02,120
It's not something that's
necessary.

1233
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,720
It's not for anyone other than
you make that choice to just

1234
00:48:05,720 --> 00:48:07,680
strip it back.
Let's move on to another one.

1235
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:09,840
This should be a nice quick one
because we've kind of talked

1236
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,320
about this previously, but why
we're saying book looks?

1237
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,120
Why are we saying book looks?
Why are we saying that they are

1238
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,040
a waste of time?
Well, it's kind of linked with

1239
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,720
that marking thing we talked
about earlier and the pressure

1240
00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:23,200
to make books look a certain way
rather than actually be

1241
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,320
effective for the children.
So book looks in general.

1242
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,080
Do you think we should get rid
of them completely or do you

1243
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,120
just think maybe not every week
like some schools are having to

1244
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:32,360
do?
I don't think you should get rid

1245
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,840
of them the completely at all.
I, I, I'd very much, if a school

1246
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:36,760
was trying to say we'll never
look at books again, I'd be, I'd

1247
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:38,760
be an advocate for saying no, we
shouldn't, we shouldn't be doing

1248
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,200
that.
Well, just context, we, we LED

1249
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,480
maths for years and absolutely
my, my line was, I'm not looking

1250
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,200
at books.
I think we we did, though, like

1251
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:46,600
at least once a year we looked
at books.

1252
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:47,760
We didn't.
Yeah, we did.

1253
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:48,600
We didn't.
I can.

1254
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:49,840
I remember.
Last year we didn't.

1255
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:50,760
Look for books.
OK, maybe.

1256
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,800
Maybe we didn't in one year,
maybe not.

1257
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:54,960
I think, I think ever.
I've done three book scrutinies

1258
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:56,440
and I was led maths there for
seven years.

1259
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,000
Okay, fair enough, but we still
look to books a couple of times,

1260
00:48:59,040 --> 00:48:59,600
right?
Yeah.

1261
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:04,840
And but did I did it because I
was told to do it and I finished

1262
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,280
the book script and I thought
I've not gotten much out of

1263
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:08,320
this.
Do you think part of it was

1264
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,480
doing it because other people
were also SLT were already

1265
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,600
looking at books though, so we
didn't feel like we needed to?

1266
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:16,000
Like I'm imagining in this
situation, absolutely no one in

1267
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,400
any context is looking at books,
which I, I don't think that's

1268
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,560
necessarily good because then I,
because then I think there's a

1269
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,320
genuine argument to say to SLT
when they're challenged on like,

1270
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,760
you know, what's the standard of
work in your school?

1271
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:27,520
They don't even know.
They've never looked at a book.

1272
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,800
Yeah, that to me is like that.
That's all I'm, I'm going down

1273
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:31,400
to the extreme of.
Like, I don't think it should

1274
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,120
have no place whatsoever.
But I absolutely do not think

1275
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,880
weekly book looks or even
necessarily termly book looks

1276
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,760
are needed because I think it
becomes about tick boxing and it

1277
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,960
starts encouraging that culture
of their teacher going home to

1278
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,280
take that book and make sure it
looks good.

1279
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,480
To me that sounds like it's
nothing to do with the amount of

1280
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,080
times you do it.
That's to do with the culture of

1281
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,640
how you get feedback around it.
For the separate things.

1282
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,440
You could, you could, you could
like you could have leaders and

1283
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:56,800
people look at books every
single week.

1284
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,160
But if they don't give you a
report, that's like a three-step

1285
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:01,880
thing about why your books are
crap and what you need to do to

1286
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:03,720
be better and what's their good.
If they're doing that every

1287
00:50:03,720 --> 00:50:05,080
time, then I think it's
overbearing.

1288
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,160
But if they're just flicking
through books and seeing the

1289
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,360
what, what the kids are doing, I
think it doesn't matter how

1290
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,080
often you do that.
I'm talking very specifically

1291
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,600
about like book scrutiny.
Like like you, you take your

1292
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,080
book in, you write some
feedback, you send it off to the

1293
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,280
staff.
I've, I've never done a book

1294
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,360
scrutiny and thought, Oh, I, I,
I, I I can't wait to give this

1295
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,920
into bludge fees feedback.
What I'd do is I'd flick through

1296
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,600
books and I maybe be like, oh,
in general, this is working

1297
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:30,440
really well.
Why don't we try that out?

1298
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,080
But I'm, I'm not going to fall
into that trap now of me

1299
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,520
spending an hour talking about
how you can't judge a book.

1300
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,240
You can't open a book and judge
what a teacher has or hasn't

1301
00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:41,000
done.
Like I said earlier, Oh, there

1302
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:42,440
looks like there's less marking
in this book.

1303
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,840
Have they done this?
I can't then be like, well,

1304
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:46,600
actually no, but I do want to
look at a mass book and then

1305
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:48,960
make a judgement.
This is just a part of the

1306
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,000
picture.
Like I think it's kind of

1307
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,040
useless just to pick up a book
and look at it.

1308
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,600
What you should be doing more
than anything is building a

1309
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:57,200
culture where I can just drop
into your lesson.

1310
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:59,120
I can just see what's going on.
Sure.

1311
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,160
A book scrutiny itself.
I'm like, it's just a tick box

1312
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,760
to try and paper over a gap
where you assume things about a

1313
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,360
teacher.
You put pressure on them because

1314
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:09,000
the only thing you can go off is
a tick box at the end of the

1315
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:10,240
day.
What can I see?

1316
00:51:10,240 --> 00:51:11,880
Have I seen the waltz
underlined?

1317
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:12,880
Yes.
Have I seen the dates written

1318
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:13,320
down?
Yes.

1319
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:14,680
Have I seen teacher marking?
Yes.

1320
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:16,080
Have I seen verbal feedback?
Yes, Pierce.

1321
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,040
Other than that, you're just
getting a vibe and I think you

1322
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,440
should get a vibe.
So in your school, like let's

1323
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:22,680
say you're the leader of this
school right now.

1324
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,480
So I really want to make sure I
understand you properly here.

1325
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:27,880
You're not going to be doing
those book scrutinies in that

1326
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:29,400
kind of isolated way that you're
just saying.

1327
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,600
But you mentioned maybe you'll
be going around the classrooms

1328
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:33,920
and just generally dropping in.
That's where I see the books.

1329
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:35,160
Yeah.
What would you, what would you

1330
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:36,840
look for?
Like would what would you look

1331
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,120
for in a book?
In a book, honestly, honestly, I

1332
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:43,600
just don't really care because
in my what I'd what I'd be

1333
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:45,280
looking for is this culture of
the classroom.

1334
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,360
OK, what am I worried about as a
teacher that they're planning

1335
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:50,480
well structured lessons.
OK, well, I can.

1336
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,480
I'm in the lessons a lot because
I built.

1337
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,760
I'm going to my aim is to build
that culture of when I'm SLT,

1338
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,120
I'm in a lesson.
It's like a helpful thing, a, a

1339
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,480
productive thing.
I can see what lessons are doing

1340
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:01,600
because I'm in the classroom all
the time.

1341
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:03,720
OK, so I can see they're doing
well structured lessons.

1342
00:52:03,720 --> 00:52:05,000
Are they giving feedback to the
children?

1343
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:06,640
Well, I can see that in their
lessons.

1344
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,640
I can see that when I go in and
flick through their book, I can

1345
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:11,840
over their shoulder.
No, you're completely I'm, I'm

1346
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,000
not saying don't look at books.
I'm saying don't do books.

1347
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,200
Routines, waste of time.
It should be embedded in the

1348
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:19,520
context of a wider picture,
which is maybe I'm going around,

1349
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:20,920
I'm talking to a kid.
What have you done for the last

1350
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:21,520
week?
Show me.

1351
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:22,840
So what you've done for the last
week.

1352
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:24,360
Oh, you did that, then you did
that, and that's all awesome.

1353
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,320
Nice 10 you could do.
Your presentation is not great

1354
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,120
though, is it?
You can see you can do it here,

1355
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:30,960
but not here.
And your teacher's not been

1356
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,240
doing much written marking in
this one, have they?

1357
00:52:33,240 --> 00:52:33,920
Loudly.
That's.

1358
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,640
The point I just don't think, I
think book scrutiny is where you

1359
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,120
you finish your week, you're
absolutely knackered.

1360
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,120
You're done here and you've gone
above and beyond as much as you

1361
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:43,120
can.
You know, you've got planning at

1362
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:44,960
the weekend, you've got to do as
well and you are absolutely

1363
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,240
knackered.
Ping e-mail book scrutiny.

1364
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:49,520
Your books aren't very good.
Your books haven't got this,

1365
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:51,200
this and this.
Come on and talk to me on

1366
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:52,840
Monday.
I want to see an improvement by

1367
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,120
the next week when I do another
book scrutiny cough.

1368
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,000
Like, honestly, like, honestly
at that point, seriously, like,

1369
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,480
like I don't need to read that
at that point.

1370
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:04,360
Yeah.
And my point is just just just

1371
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:06,720
have a holistic approach.
And it's like, it's so easy to

1372
00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:08,680
be like, well, don't you think
that books could be helpful in

1373
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:09,880
some way?
Probably.

1374
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:11,600
But do you think that that's
useful?

1375
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,640
Whatsoever you just sat at home
like Lauren, dinner, dinner at

1376
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:16,360
the dinner table after work.
And I was like, you're right,

1377
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:17,920
little bit down today.
Well, I just wasn't enough peer

1378
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:19,800
assessment in my book and I got
called out on it.

1379
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:21,400
I'm just cutting.
I'm just I'm annoyed.

1380
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,920
I've never get down.
Yeah, it's just I'm ready to

1381
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:26,880
move on, unless you got
something to add on that just.

1382
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:30,920
Because you said quite bold and
I think you kind of change what

1383
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:32,920
you said after you said I just
don't care.

1384
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:34,760
And I think you do what
everything you said tells me

1385
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:36,480
that you care a little bit.
You just don't care to the

1386
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:38,640
extent that people do book
scrutinies like in the same way,

1387
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,160
like imagine the situation we
talked about earlier, right?

1388
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,440
You've got a member of your
staff, you've got, let's say you

1389
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,640
have a really progressive, a
really nice marking policy in

1390
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,080
your school and it is like 80%
about verbal feedback.

1391
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:49,560
And you have a little bit of
written feedback, but it's

1392
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:52,080
really like you do expect to see
something's written down in the

1393
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:53,520
book, but you've made your
policy really clear.

1394
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:55,960
It's very progressive and then
you get to the end of the year

1395
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:57,920
and and you haven't been looking
at books all year because book

1396
00:53:57,920 --> 00:53:59,480
scrutinies are a waste of time.
And even when you're going

1397
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:00,920
around, you don't really care.
You're just looking at all the

1398
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:01,560
other stuff.
Yep.

1399
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:03,960
And then you've got teacher A
who follows the policy

1400
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,200
perfectly, loads of loads of
verbal feedback, a little bit

1401
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:07,080
written here and there in the
books.

1402
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,200
And you've got teacher B who's
not written a single thing in

1403
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,440
the book and it goes home and a
parent complaints and says what?

1404
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:12,720
There's absolutely nothing
written.

1405
00:54:12,720 --> 00:54:14,160
I know we've got this
progressive feedback.

1406
00:54:14,240 --> 00:54:15,760
But I've got, I've got this
progressive feedback.

1407
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:17,800
It's within the policy.
Yeah, the policy says have some

1408
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,520
written feedback, though.
Yeah, there's nothing in this

1409
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:20,360
book.
Would you be you?

1410
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:22,680
Kid made really good progress
though, because throughout the

1411
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:24,560
year I've been dropping in and
seeing the lessons.

1412
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:26,920
I've been fantastic lessons.
I've looked at the assessment

1413
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:28,160
points all the way through the
year.

1414
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,960
It is a picture of it.
There is absolutely nothing that

1415
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,840
I don't think you can't do over
a year where you're shocked at

1416
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,560
the end because a book looks
different if you've got to the

1417
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,160
end of the year and a book
looking slightly different to

1418
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,600
someone else is like a tipping
point of oh God, you're a bad

1419
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:45,200
teacher now.
What on earth have you been

1420
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:47,040
looking at for the whole year?
I'd be looking at the whole

1421
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:50,720
picture and if that ever
happened, I'd say firstly we

1422
00:54:50,720 --> 00:54:52,960
don't cheque books because you
know what I'm doing as a head

1423
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:54,960
teacher, I'm dropping into
lessons every week for your

1424
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:56,280
child and your teacher is
fantastic you.

1425
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:58,120
Would be embarrassed about
saying I didn't notice that I

1426
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,080
never looked.
No, no, because because it bed

1427
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,840
embedded into my policy.
I would look if it was policy,

1428
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:04,880
but it's not policy.
That's what I'm saying.

1429
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:05,880
I don't care.
I'm not going to do book

1430
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:07,800
scrutiny.
I'm going to go in the lessons

1431
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:09,360
and I'll see the children
working in their books all the

1432
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,000
time.
I'll be able to see this.

1433
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,960
And if I see if there is
something where after two months

1434
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:16,760
of me going round the school and
seeing stuff I noticed there is

1435
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,280
never anything written, I'd say
something to that teacher.

1436
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,640
I wouldn't get to the end point
because what you're, it seems to

1437
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,440
me what you're suggesting there
is like no book scrutinies at

1438
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:26,520
all.
Can't see he gets to the end.

1439
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:27,720
Oh, crap.
This is embarrassing.

1440
00:55:27,720 --> 00:55:29,400
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I would.

1441
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:30,320
I would know.
That's a good point.

1442
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,920
I'd either be happy with it and
be able to explain it or I would

1443
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:34,040
have fixed earlier on in the
year.

1444
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,040
There's no point where just
because there's not a book

1445
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:38,160
scrutiny that I can't give that
feedback to my staff.

1446
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:40,160
No, that's actually a really
good point, because in my head I

1447
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,840
was kind of making an assumption
that you'd also not go around

1448
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,040
and look in the books at all in
the lessons either.

1449
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:47,720
But actually, by definition, in
your way of doing it, you would

1450
00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:49,320
absolutely have picked it up
before the end of the year

1451
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:51,080
because you're always going
around the looking exactly in

1452
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:52,920
the classrooms anyway and just
generally flicking through and

1453
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:54,040
you would have, you just would
have noticed.

1454
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:55,240
Yeah, I think that's more
effective.

1455
00:55:55,240 --> 00:55:57,640
And you see a lot of people say
I don't want SLT snooping around

1456
00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:59,720
my room while I'm teaching.
Well, my point here would be you

1457
00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:01,560
would, because I'm not going to
be that person.

1458
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:03,480
The only reason you tend to not
want that is because you think

1459
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,400
they're being judgy, moaning,
looking for stuff, picking you

1460
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:08,440
up.
My point is, I just want to help

1461
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:09,880
them.
I want to be an extra pair of

1462
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:11,000
hands.
I want to just go in and see

1463
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:12,800
what's happening with the kids
in my school.

1464
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:15,120
These are my kids as well.
You're teaching them.

1465
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:17,800
But I care for these kids, I
care for you as a staff member.

1466
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:19,160
I want to make sure everything's
working.

1467
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:21,320
And if the kids aren't working
for you, I'll tell them.

1468
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:23,440
If you aren't working for the
kids, I'll tell you.

1469
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:25,760
But it's got to be as you go.
It's got to be productive.

1470
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:27,120
It's got to be, what can we do
to help?

1471
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:29,280
And if something's not
happening, open that dialogue

1472
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,440
early rather than waiting for a
book scrutiny and assuming

1473
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:34,480
something's not happening, which
might be happening.

1474
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:36,720
And do you know what?
By me going in, I see it instead

1475
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:38,640
of a book scrutiny every three
weeks for maths or I'm like,

1476
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:40,600
well, there's no feedback.
How on earth can the kids know

1477
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:42,200
what they're doing?
If I just stepped into the

1478
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,160
lesson once, I might have seen,
you know, at the start of every

1479
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:45,680
lesson, she's doing whole class
feedback.

1480
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:46,800
Yeah.
And I can see that now.

1481
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:48,720
And I don't need to write this
shitty response that's just

1482
00:56:48,720 --> 00:56:51,160
completely made-up that I've
just guessed because I looked at

1483
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:52,640
a book.
I just think it's ineffective.

1484
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,000
It's the least effective way of
checking up on what your kids

1485
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:56,600
are doing.
And what your teachers do is

1486
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,080
what's evidence in the book.
And it just backs up everything

1487
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:00,600
we've ever said.
And I just feel like such a

1488
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:02,360
hypocrite to then be like, but
I've got to look at the books,

1489
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:04,760
though.
But do I need to do a formal

1490
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,560
scrutiny?
No, It's like it's one prong.

1491
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:10,440
Yeah, that's good.
I think you, I really try to

1492
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:13,200
like catch you out almost there
and play devil advocate.

1493
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:15,520
But I think it's a very, I can't
disagree at all.

1494
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:17,120
And I think you'd be a very good
head teacher.

1495
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:19,600
Dylan, I think you should go
back to teaching, climb the

1496
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:21,080
ladder, mate.
Get back in there.

1497
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:22,760
Be a head teacher.
Spend 8 years middle leadership

1498
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:24,320
getting completely abused.
Yeah, I love it.

1499
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:26,680
Absolutely.
Yeah, let's finish on this one.

1500
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:28,920
OK, so the last one and I'm
going to throw it over to you

1501
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,360
because again, this is something
you have spoken about so much

1502
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:32,840
and I don't think we need to
spend longer on it.

1503
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:35,080
We've we've talked about this a
lot before.

1504
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:39,280
Online specific assessment for
every objective in all lessons.

1505
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:42,400
Oh yeah, Bennett, that's it.
Done, Bennett, get rid of it.

1506
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,480
It's such a waste of time For
maths and English not so much

1507
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,360
because it's extremely dense
curriculum and and it's

1508
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:50,920
incredibly important.
This is so this is I want to

1509
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:52,640
push you on this straight away
because I should get to the meat

1510
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,560
of this discussion because you
you always have a different view

1511
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:57,360
in English and maths and it just
fascinates me.

1512
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:00,240
And you said then because it's
more dense and I was like, OK,

1513
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,120
that's something I can get
behind because there's a lot

1514
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:03,560
more to get.
That's all it is really.

1515
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:07,040
But like, you know, why is a
progression in history for our

1516
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:08,680
six lessons or maybe the Anglo
Saxons?

1517
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:11,040
Yeah.
Why is that less important to to

1518
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:15,320
assess than a progression in
shape name in maths over a / A?

1519
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:17,840
Week once it's done never come
back to it shape names gets

1520
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:19,960
comes up every single year in
the curriculum for well pretty

1521
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,280
much for all the kids.
It's it's you need to track it

1522
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:25,040
across multiple year groups.
I think core curriculum.

1523
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:27,880
I think that's if you're doing
good assessment in history, you

1524
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:30,200
are absolutely assessing things
that will come up frequently.

1525
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:32,280
You're assessing their ability
to interpret sources.

1526
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:34,560
You're assessing their ability
to argue pros and cons.

1527
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:37,480
You're assessing their ability
to cause and consequence, for

1528
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:38,920
example.
So if you're doing good

1529
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:40,840
assessment for history,
absolutely it comes up again.

1530
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:42,400
Yeah, that's fine.
But we're talking about

1531
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:44,000
assessing each objective,
aren't?

1532
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,520
We sure, but I think but but I
think a good history assessment

1533
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:51,560
then let's just change it around
to sure you've got today we did.

1534
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:53,400
Why did the Anglo Saxons invade
Britain?

1535
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:55,960
But you're assessing against
cause and consequence.

1536
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:58,360
You're assessing against
interpretation of sources.

1537
00:58:58,360 --> 00:58:59,600
You're assessing against
everything.

1538
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,000
Some of it might be left blanks
didn't do that lesson, but

1539
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,840
you're only assessing against
core skills which do thread

1540
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:06,640
their way through the.
Curriculum so is that a waste of

1541
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:08,000
time?
It's not a waste of time take

1542
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:11,080
those core skills and at the end
of the year give given us give

1543
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:12,520
an assessment you've taught the
kids all year.

1544
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:15,440
You can see these core 6 strands
whatever is going through and do

1545
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:17,800
that.
What I have a problem with is 2

1546
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:19,600
prongs to this.
Let's take the worst case verse,

1547
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,920
which is so yeah, every single
term you have to put an

1548
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:25,200
assessment versus each of the
lesson objects as you did to how

1549
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:26,400
well those kids did in that
class.

1550
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:27,600
Completely pointless.
What's what?

1551
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:30,760
Why do I need to know how well a
kid remembered like the part of

1552
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:33,200
this Anglo-Saxon lesson on how
how villages are formed?

1553
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:35,480
Yeah, Like what has no relevance
to anything.

1554
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:37,880
It doesn't matter.
It's not going to change like my

1555
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:39,920
next lessons and not going to
change my next year's lesson.

1556
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:41,840
I'm not going to change my next
unit or I better not teach that

1557
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:44,160
bit on Vikings now because they
didn't really get the villages

1558
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:45,760
in.
And what you're talking about,

1559
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:47,040
not even all of them, by the
way.

1560
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:49,240
Yeah, because these six kids
didn't get didn't weren't very

1561
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:51,560
good at the villages lesson.
There's just such a waste of

1562
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:53,000
time.
We're just writing stuff down

1563
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,160
for the sake of it because we
think someone might need to

1564
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:56,520
check on it.
Is it all about checking?

1565
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:59,760
We think it's the optic someone
might want to see that we that

1566
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:02,520
we thought about.
Them Ofsted never once asked to

1567
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:04,880
look at it when when we had
Ofsted they didn't look at any

1568
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:07,600
We we had we would deep.
I never get this wrong.

1569
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:09,360
Deep dived.
We were deep dive, whatever it

1570
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:10,600
was, in mass.
Yeah.

1571
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:13,640
And he not wants us to look at
any kind of data spreadsheet

1572
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,240
assessment stuff did not all.
All he said was how do you do

1573
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:17,080
it?
We do it like this.

1574
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:19,560
And that was, and that, you
know, going back to what I said,

1575
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,920
that was a core subject.
I think it is more important to

1576
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:23,920
be just a little bit more
granular because there's so many

1577
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:25,600
more things to it.
Yeah, there's so many more

1578
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:27,480
themes.
Like the core themes of history.

1579
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:28,680
I think you can condense to like
6.

1580
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:30,800
There's like 6 things.
The core themes of maths you

1581
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:32,960
can't condense to see.
There's so many themes of maths

1582
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:34,640
that are like with equal
importance, of course you need

1583
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:36,520
to assess them all and
constantly be coming back to it

1584
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:38,360
because you come back to the
same things over and over and.

1585
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:40,320
Over again, but I still think
you can stream on it like like

1586
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:41,680
like number and place value,
right?

1587
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:45,320
Yeah, I genuinely think you can
just teach number and place

1588
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,440
value and then obviously do all
of your in the stuff, live

1589
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:50,560
feedback, helping them as they
go, intervention groups and

1590
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:53,480
stuff like that of course.
But I still think that you can

1591
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:57,160
do at the end then if we're
talking about formal assessment,

1592
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:59,400
summative assessment of teacher
assessment, whatever it is at

1593
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:03,280
the end of that term, number in
place value, give it a rating.

1594
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:05,080
Yeah, honestly, and it's like
the whole thing, same, to be

1595
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:06,600
fair.
Like I say, all this forgetting

1596
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:08,480
that people don't know the exact
thing that's in my brain, which

1597
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:10,560
is I also think mass.
I just think there's more

1598
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:12,240
strands to it.
I think that can also be done as

1599
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,560
like a yearly thing.
Like almost literally at the end

1600
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:15,760
of the year.
We just need a snapshot of the

1601
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:17,720
teacher opinion as well.
By the way, we have all this

1602
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:20,480
data and all this summative data
because they do three tests a

1603
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:22,680
year and basically every school
level that clearly just

1604
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:25,920
identifies their strength
behaviours already, the 20

1605
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,760
individual parts of place value
and see what you rated them on

1606
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:30,240
every single lesson and take the
average.

1607
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:31,440
And then that's your teacher
assessment.

1608
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:32,600
Yeah, why don't?
Why no?

1609
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:34,680
I don't know.
I I literally don't have to do

1610
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:36,040
that.
You've made-up that I have to do

1611
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:37,400
that.
And if I did that, all that

1612
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:38,840
would happen is I'd spend more
time doing it.

1613
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,800
And the kids would have
absolutely nothing different at

1614
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:44,040
the end of it.
Absolutely nothing different.

1615
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:45,240
And you know how I know that,
Hayden, go on.

1616
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:47,640
I spent the last half of my
career not doing any of this

1617
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:48,720
absolute nonsense.
Yeah.

1618
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:50,680
And the kids made really good
progress and they're really

1619
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:53,240
happy to be in school.
And they constantly did well in

1620
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:56,240
my classroom and they had no
impact on their outcomes

1621
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:58,160
whatsoever.
Yeah, you had no impact on that

1622
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:00,120
sounds like.
Yeah.

1623
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:02,360
So that's what you know, I'm not
going to get too deep into it

1624
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:03,920
because it it's just that is as
simple as that.

1625
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:05,400
In all honesty, it's a waste of
time.

1626
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:07,320
When you got a school policy.
I always remember we had the

1627
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:10,200
positive, some stupid hexagons.
There was something right at the

1628
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:12,240
start of my career, there was a
hexagon thing.

1629
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:14,720
I can't really remember exactly
what it was, but it was it was

1630
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,480
some assessment to all a school
but a fancy thing and then got

1631
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:21,920
replaced a year later where we
had to against every objective

1632
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:24,600
of every single subject.
So every single individual,

1633
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:27,320
single subject, every single
lesson, we had to fill in these

1634
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:29,160
like hexagons and different
colours meant it was like

1635
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:32,760
classic, like orange, green, red
was and purple and gold or

1636
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:35,200
whatever agenda.
And and I just remember getting

1637
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:36,800
to the end of the year of my
first year of doing it and then

1638
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:38,760
being and then watching it just
turned to dust.

1639
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:40,200
Yeah.
Like watching it just mean

1640
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:43,120
nothing and do nothing, inform
nothing, inform nobody, help.

1641
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:44,000
No data.
No, no.

1642
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,600
Sorry, no.
Oh, I need to know how they did

1643
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:48,000
in their pronouns lesson in
November.

1644
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:51,520
Yeah, I need to know that.
So pointless and from so I

1645
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:54,320
basically one year of my career,
I did this nine years I didn't

1646
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:55,800
do it all.
Once, yeah, once you saw it

1647
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:57,480
could be completely ineffective.
Once you're like.

1648
01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:59,320
Whatever did not.
Waste some time and, and and

1649
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:00,760
your kids obviously really
suffered for that.

1650
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:02,000
They didn't make any progress
ever.

1651
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:03,680
Big time.
Oh, it was just, it's just so

1652
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:06,640
much a waste of time and it is
at the end of the day, the

1653
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:08,160
majority of the time it is an
optic.

1654
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:10,440
We're doing it 'cause we think
we should be showing that we

1655
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:13,280
assess kids is, I forgot to say
it, but it's the same way that I

1656
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:15,120
that I gave the kids feedback in
the lesson.

1657
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:19,040
Obviously I thought to myself,
can they do it or not?

1658
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:22,360
Of course, I thought that before
I moved on.

1659
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:23,720
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah.

1660
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:25,520
Mad madness, Absolutely.
Madness of time.

1661
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:27,720
Last thing, waste of time
listening to this whole podcast

1662
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:28,840
episode.
What have you done?

1663
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:30,040
Honestly, why have you done
this?

1664
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:31,520
It's a complete waste of your
time.

1665
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:33,400
Yeah.
Yeah, but if you didn't think it

1666
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:35,960
was a waste of time, you can
leave us a lovely, lovely 540 on

1667
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:37,480
Spotify.
It would be really nice if

1668
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:39,080
there's a lot of people.
We've been saying this a lot

1669
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:40,120
recently.
We've not been saying.

1670
01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:42,160
The review, it's true, it's
true.

1671
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:45,000
Please put them up, please.
And we're uploading these to

1672
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:46,560
YouTube and they're getting a
bit more traction on YouTube

1673
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:47,600
now.
So if you're on YouTube, hello,

1674
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:49,360
like subscribe, I think that's
the right term.

1675
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:54,120
Can we just say like subscribe,
follow rate, share, share?

1676
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:57,160
Join the What's that community?
Join the What's that?

1677
01:03:57,160 --> 01:03:58,920
Community down below.
Follow us on Instagram, go back

1678
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:00,520
to following.
Yeah, teach it and pick podcast

1679
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:02,000
and all this socials.
I'll just put more down there.

1680
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:02,880
Just.
Put more down there, don't

1681
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,640
forget Mona, US and TikTok.
Bonas and TikTok yeah yeah, it

1682
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:07,760
could you context yeah.
Could you please become someone

1683
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:10,280
who's never worked in education
in their life take a real

1684
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:12,560
completely out of context not
listen to the second-half of the

1685
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:15,000
real where I explain the point
that you've just made and then

1686
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:16,320
Mona us that would be really
cool yeah.

1687
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:17,520
That'd be really good.
Yeah.

1688
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:18,960
I love.
That should do that last things

1689
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,000
before we go ahead and.
Can you really waste time if

1690
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:25,440
time doesn't exist?
Yeah, you can think about that

1691
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:27,160
hope.
We've just outlined how you can.

1692
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:28,880
Wait for thought.
See you next time, yeah?