Ep 135: Answering Your Questions: School Suspensions, Recognising Red Flags & Life After Teaching

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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to another episode of Teach

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Sleep Repeat.
My name is Dylan.

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And my name is Hayden.
And we are back with your

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questions, your listener
submissions.

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We're going to go through some
but a slight twist this week,

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Hayden.
Oh, yeah.

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Because we have set up a
WhatsApp community group where

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you as the listener can join and
get links directly to your phone

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every single Monday and
Wednesday when a new episode

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drops polls on future topics, on
things that we will cover on

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this podcast, and you can have
your say as to what we talk

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about.
But most importantly for today's

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episode, Hayden, you get
priority when it comes to

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questions you submit for us to
answer.

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So this is where a bulk of these
questions have come from today.

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What?
More could you want in life.

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That's why that's what I was
thinking when you were saying

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that and they probably were as
well.

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So I'm looking forward to going
through these questions then and

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we've got lots this week we've.
Got quite a few.

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So if you want to join the
WhatsApp community, there'll be

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a link down in the description
to this episode.

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You can click on it.
You get a link, you only get

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WhatsApp.
From myself, it would be myself

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and Hayden, but Hayden doesn't
do anything for the podcast, as

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we well know.
Listen, I'm trying to keep it on

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brand.
As you've seen from our

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Instagram, there's an important
part of that is you doing all

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the work.
Yeah, yeah, sure.

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And me not.
No problem.

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Let's dive straight in.
So this is from a listener who's

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on our WhatsApp.
Group and they say, do you guys

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think suspensions work?
There's often a call for them

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from some parents and school
staff who feel they need to be a

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punishment for severe
behaviours, which I do agree

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with.
There must be something done,

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but can't help but feel that
some of these kids who are

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suspended end up staying at home
playing PlayStation for the

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laser out of school.
Is it that suspensions only work

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for some children, those whose
parents take it seriously?

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They should definitely be a last
resort, but even then, do they

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work?
I really can't decide.

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I'm so on the fence.
I put splinters in my ass.

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Wow, love the ending of that
one.

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Very secondary sort of focus on
that one, but I still think we

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can.
So do you think there's a

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difference then straight away
between primary and secondary in

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terms of suspensions?
That's interesting.

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I guess I just I naturally think
of secondary because I don't

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really hear of it happening in
primary.

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Very I don't.
I don't have ever really heard

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of it at all when happening in
primary, whereas I hear it

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happening in secondary school
all the time.

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It feels like behaviours get
more certainly more exaggerated

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and more serious than they in
general when it comes to

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secondary school as children get
older.

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Yeah, definitely.
But when I think about whether

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it works or not, I, I, in all
honesty, I don't think there's

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anything that works for
everybody.

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It's one of those questions
where I'm like, now, of course I

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don't think it works for
everybody.

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I don't really think there's
anything you could say a policy

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in school where I'm like, yes,
this works for every single

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child.
I don't think that's true.

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So yeah, sure.
I think suspensions I, I don't,

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I don't intrinsically have a
problem with them.

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Like I don't think that they are
something that doesn't work for

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anybody.
But I can completely appreciate

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the idea that there will be some
children who might take

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advantage of the fact that going
home is really not that much of

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A punishment.
But I think for most people, it

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probably does exactly what it
says on the tin.

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Do you know what I mean?
Like it's you're, you're

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obviously in trouble.
You've been sent home from

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school.
I think they could maybe be

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abused.
I've heard of situations where

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people get suspended for things.
You think, do they need to be

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out of school for that?
Or if they if they miss school

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unnecessarily, but they're on
the other side of the coin.

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Again, there are equally times
where it's like that child

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absolutely needed to be removed
from that situation.

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Perhaps it was like violence or
dangerous behaviour.

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Of course they should be out of
the out of the classroom.

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So a very long winded way of
saying yes and no.

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You're on the fence with this
guy?

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Yeah.
Really, genuinely like, I think

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it's case by case.
It's hard.

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It's hard not to say that.
Well, let me dive more into that

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because this is really
interesting.

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I don't necessarily disagree
with you whatsoever, by the way,

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but it does just like beg the
question then.

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So are we suggesting A2 tier
system where some children get

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suspended because someone agrees
that that's useful for them and

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some children don't get
suspended because they're saying

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people agree that's not useful
for them despite them maybe

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doing the same thing?
I don't.

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Think it's possible?
I think that's one of those

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things where maybe in some, you
know, ideological world you

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could do that and I.
Don't think that would be an

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ideological word though, would
it?

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Like because it literally then
you know, what's, you know,

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what's the deterrent?
It it, it stops becoming a

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deterrent, I suppose, for that
child who we all agree

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suspensions don't work for.
So do we just accept the fact

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that, oh, they brought a weapon
into school, but suspensions

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don't work for that kid so we
won't do it like there.

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There does obviously come a
point where if you are a danger

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to the rest of the children, it
doesn't matter whether it works

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or not for that one individual
child you've got to put into

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account.
The rest of the children and the

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the school as a whole that
actually, sure, this might not

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be the best thing for you right
now in terms of your education

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as an individual, but I tell you
what, it's the best thing for

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hundreds of other kids.
Yeah.

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I mean, it's a really good
point.

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And it definitely raises the
two, the two, the two things to

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think about with suspension,
which is not it's not

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exclusively about that child
being punished, is it?

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It might be literally about
removing that child for the sake

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of everybody else, which I think
is a really valid point.

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I wasn't really thinking of that
before.

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So, yeah, in that situation, do
you know what?

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I don't really.
It doesn't matter that that that

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child might not be getting the
full extent of the punishment

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because maybe their parents
don't care as much or whatever

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they were saying they want to
play.

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They let them play PlayStation
or whatever they said because

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really it was just about them
not being there for the sake of

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the other children.
So yeah, OK, I think that

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exists.
But does it?

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I mean, what do you think?
Are you swayed one way or the

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other?
Would you, if you had the power

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to control this, would you be
like, yeah, suspensions are

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good, leave them in.
I like them as they work enough.

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Leave them be.
Or would you change it?

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Every fibre of my being doesn't
like the idea of excluding a

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child from education.
Like it feels to me as if every

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child has the right to an
education and denying them that

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should be the absolute last
resort.

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I think for cases where safety
of other children or other

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adults in the school, there are
certain things a child does that

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I think should be an automatic
suspension.

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If there are certain severity,
we could decide what that line

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is between us, but so I do think
they should exist for certain

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points.
However, I just, I find it

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tricky and I don't like it when
it's, it can feel like the easy

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option sometimes when there's
maybe an underlying cause or a

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root reason as to why a child is
behaving in that way or not

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participating, etcetera.
Whether it is the home life

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where it is a diagnosed need, an
undiagnosed need, those things

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clearly exist.
And I think it becomes a

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reductive conversation.
I think personally, when there

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are people out there who say
every single time a child does

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something, it's a it's for a
reason and it can be explained

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and it's not their fault.
I think that's quite a reductive

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thing to say simply because I
agree that for a lot of children

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there are going to be, you know,
it's the symptom of an

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underlying 'cause that we should
be working to fix that and

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suspensions ignore that and
aren't helpful.

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But I do think that there are
some cases where even if that's

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true, and I don't think it's
true all the time, but even if

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that is true, you do just have
to not be in the school building

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for a few days because of the
severity of what you've done.

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So I, I think, yeah, this, this,
this debate could become quite

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reductive and quite binary,
where it's like, I fundamentally

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disagree with this notion of
suspensions, therefore they

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should never happen.
Yeah.

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Versus yeah, suspensions are
fine.

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It's down to school discretion.
We get to choose and they can

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then be abused and more children
that should be suspended end up

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being suspended.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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There are two sides to this
argument.

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And I think again, like almost
every single time we have these

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deeper debates, it feels like
you've got to gravitate towards,

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towards one option.
And I just feel as if both of

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those aren't very helpful.
Yeah, there's pros and cons to

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both, isn't there?
I always think of that.

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I'm like, if we keep suspensions
in, there's pros and there's

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cons.
If we get suspensions, there's

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pros and there's cons.
You gotta pick the like, what's

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the best of the two options, You
know?

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I mean because they both come
with drawbacks.

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Yeah.
So, yeah, I think, I think there

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has to be a form of suspension
for some things.

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Yeah, I think, I think saying
there doesn't is.

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Is harmful in certain situations
to more people than one.

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Yeah.
Yeah.

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And that could be the one child
who, unfortunately, is

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suspended.
And perhaps the, you know, the

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argument might be a bit more
around the tightening of rules

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and regulations on how
suspensions are used and issued

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and how it all works.
You know what I mean?

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That that might be the that
actual debate to have.

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Yeah.
And all of this has to be in the

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backdrop of talking about an
understanding what the root

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causes of a lot of these
behaviours might be.

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Yeah.
And it's not necessarily on an

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individual basis saying, ohh,
it's OK, you brought that weapon

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into school because of the
underlying societal structures

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that are around poorer families.
OK, That could be and probably

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is a long term fundamental
reason why that happened.

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But for that individual child,
there has to be some kind of

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individual retribution here
where there are also other

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people in that same background
who've had that same upbringing,

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who live in the same society,
who didn't bring a weapon into

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school.
So there has to be a point where

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you're just like, listen, I
think there needs to be

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conversations about fixing this
long term and not just trying to

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patch up the the symptoms, but
actually going to the root cause

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that has to be going alongside
this.

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And I'm not ignoring that by
saying sometimes that you do

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have to be suspended.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

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You can just have both.
It sounds to me like for the the

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complexity that you're putting
out here, that it sounds like

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you're being a very lefty,
wokey, beta male, whatever you

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got called that time on
Instagram.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And what's great is if a

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different person hears it, I'd
be a right wing lunatic

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reformer.
So, you know, you call me what

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you will, but you know, I like
these conversations because I

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feel like, you know, they can be
tough to have sometimes because

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I really, I actually really hate
the idea of being put in a box.

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And it's a lot of the time we,
this happens a lot with others

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in general.
Now, just going wider, let's say

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I cut what we just said and put
it into a reel.

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I could cut 1/2 of that
conversation and I'd have a

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bunch of people saying I'm a
lefty woky teacher who doesn't

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00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,040
care about, you know, behaviour
or that's why kids are going

229
00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:10,880
loose these days.
I could cut the second-half of

230
00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:12,840
what we just said and I'd have a
bunch of people saying, you

231
00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:14,760
don't care about kids, you don't
understand what you, what don't

232
00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,360
you care about the underlying
causes and, and the top down

233
00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,720
beating of the, of society.
That's that's the reason why

234
00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,960
everyone misbehaves.
It comes to a point where I'm

235
00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,360
just like, OK, we can't have a
discussion coming and we we

236
00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:25,840
can't talk about this because
what's the point?

237
00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,800
Because you've heard me say one
sentence and you've just assumed

238
00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,760
absolutely everything about me.
And I hate that about the

239
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,960
current discourse.
Is the problem with Instagram

240
00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,200
reels and just generally short
form content it's hard to get

241
00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:36,560
across?
We should do some kind of like

242
00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:37,720
longer form podcast or
something.

243
00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,800
Yeah, I don't know.
If only on Instagram, the actual

244
00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,680
name of the literal account that
people are watching and at the

245
00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:44,760
end it had a little tile that
says watch for the podcast.

246
00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,320
I don't know if only no one of
these days, mate.

247
00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,160
One of these days, right?
Let's get another one from the

248
00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:50,760
WhatsApp group.
Had loads by the way.

249
00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:52,880
Very be very grateful.
Make sure you join.

250
00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:57,200
You can only have an endless
supply of one of the following

251
00:09:57,560 --> 00:09:59,080
in your classroom.
What are you choosing?

252
00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:00,560
Whisper gold, whisper gold.
Whisper gold not.

253
00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,360
On the list, Not on the list.
Not on the list.

254
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:04,800
Go on.
Glue sticks.

255
00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,880
Yeah.
Handwriting pens or whiteboard

256
00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:12,400
pens for the children.
Oh God, what a horrible

257
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,360
question.
This is the most serious

258
00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,240
question we had on this podcast.
Forget suspensions, I'm.

259
00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,200
Going I'm going handwriting
pens.

260
00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,920
Same.
You tell me why first.

261
00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,960
Well, OK, so firstly, you know
Sophie B, Oh mate, of course she

262
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,240
did a poll about what would you
pick?

263
00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:31,080
And one of them was about glue
sticks.

264
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,520
And her point was why would you
pick loads of glue sticks?

265
00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:35,960
Because you could just not stick
in sheets.

266
00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:38,560
And I was like, so my initial
reaction to that was, yeah, but

267
00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:40,720
I've got a stick in sheets.
And I was like, then I really

268
00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:42,600
thought about it and I was like,
Nah, she's dead right.

269
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,760
Actually, she's right.
Because realistically we

270
00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:46,720
shouldn't, firstly, if you don't
have loads of glue sticks

271
00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,280
because you don't have loads of
stuff to stick in, you're,

272
00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:49,920
you're printing less, you're
using less paper.

273
00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,240
So the answer is not that we
need glue.

274
00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,440
Like obviously we need glue
sticks and it's great, right?

275
00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:57,600
But let's move towards a society
where we don't need glue sticks.

276
00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,880
Yeah, my thinking was the same.
Obviously Sophie is my BFF, so

277
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:02,280
it makes sense that we'd think
in the same way.

278
00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:05,320
So I was exactly, I was like,
right, we need to write.

279
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:06,560
I guess you could say, oh geez,
pencils.

280
00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:10,040
Might not your BFF.
Well, you're like, you're like

281
00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,440
my F do you know?
You're my HP, You're my forever,

282
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,800
my homogeneous BLOB.
Just yeah.

283
00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:21,240
Oh babe on the HP.
You know, just a reference.

284
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:22,840
Just go.
Back a few episodes.

285
00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,800
I've just remembered it was from
the last Q&A, right?

286
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,040
Yeah, that was what HP was from.
I've just remembered there was

287
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,320
something in an episode where I
said I'll explain it next week.

288
00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:32,560
Yeah.
And you're like, no, you won't.

289
00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,640
And I've forgotten.
Yeah, I remember saying I'll

290
00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,400
explain something, but I.
Can't I tell you what I've sort

291
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,080
of remembered?
It was something to do with like

292
00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,640
a film quote.
Oh, yes, And you said, I'll say

293
00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,480
it at the end of the episode.
I said no, you won't I.

294
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,920
Didn't I have spent all week
thinking myself, I'm gonna say

295
00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,280
it, I'm gonna, I'm gonna whip it
out and I'd forgotten, I can't

296
00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,520
remember what gone, you know, it
was the quote was.

297
00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:53,520
There's a good energy in the
gym, there's a good energy in

298
00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:54,640
the.
Gym and you were like, oh, it's

299
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,160
from Rocky.
I was like, mate, I.

300
00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,720
I now know what it's from, but
only because I've had a week to

301
00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,000
think about it.
Like, it came to me a lot longer

302
00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:02,280
because it was.
I was like, Oh my God, of course

303
00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:03,240
I used to watch this film all
the time.

304
00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:03,920
Yeah.
Dodge ball.

305
00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:05,640
Yeah, Ben Stiller runs Global
Gym.

306
00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:06,960
Yeah.
And he's he's there on a big

307
00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:08,840
screen at the top going.
There's a good energy in the gym

308
00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:10,080
and he's just pointing around
different.

309
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,840
People, I've forgotten how good,
how funny I found that fight.

310
00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:14,040
Do you know what?
It's one of those things where

311
00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,160
I'm like, I don't know if it is
a good film because the last

312
00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:17,480
time I watched it was about 10
years ago.

313
00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,720
It might have just been young me
finding it funny and I'd watch

314
00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:20,400
it now.
You know, when you watch

315
00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:21,760
something back, you're like,
this is well, funny guys.

316
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:23,320
It's well funny.
You used to watch this as a kid

317
00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,600
and it's rubbish and it's fringe
and it's rubbish and you're

318
00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,600
like, my humour changed.
But.

319
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:28,880
I don't know.
I still watch party.

320
00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:31,240
Yeah.
So in answer this question and

321
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,320
the supply of dodgeball on the
TV, actually, no.

322
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,040
I agree with handwriting pens,
whiteboard pens.

323
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:36,800
Can I just say this might be
quite controversial.

324
00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,960
I, for the last 3-4 years of my
career, didn't use whiteboards

325
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:42,600
and whiteboard pens at all with
the kids.

326
00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,920
As in with the kids.
That's interesting.

327
00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:46,920
What did you do in the My kids
Wind me up?

328
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:48,760
What did you feel doing this
place?

329
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,840
We just did wrote down in the
back of our books, use paper in

330
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,680
the back of our books or did
discussion based stuff or wrote

331
00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,360
on our page for our lesson.
So I did a lot, for example, in

332
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,160
maths when I want, I want to get
them to like, don't get me

333
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,680
wrong, what I'm I'm not saying
the kids shouldn't be doing

334
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:07,880
things throughout the lesson to
practise their things like

335
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:09,560
stuff.
What I'm saying is that the

336
00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:12,960
actual use of whiteboard to
whiteboard pens I found faffy

337
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:14,520
annoying.
The kids would be scribbling,

338
00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,000
drawing, rubbing things out.
Pens would run out.

339
00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,280
I've got a rubber.
No, I've got a rubber.

340
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,080
I've given you a rubber three
days in a row.

341
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:22,440
Where's the rubber I gave you
yesterday?

342
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,200
And the usual.
Actually, so just wound me up

343
00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:27,720
and it got to the point where I
was like, do you know what?

344
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,920
No, So what we used to do a lot
of the time in maths, we'd like

345
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,600
keep our book open after setting
up the date in the world and

346
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,560
stuff, a learning objective.
And isn't it weird saying Walt

347
00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:40,320
someone who doesn't know?
What do you mean setting up the

348
00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:41,120
Walt?
What is the Walt?

349
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,120
Walter White.
We are learning to, yeah.

350
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,760
Yeah, I keep the book open and
then we do some, do some input,

351
00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,760
I'd do some modelling, do some
partner work and I'd say have a

352
00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:52,320
go and they'd write it in their
book.

353
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,440
So they they do it because it's
still part of that learning

354
00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,080
objective, obviously, but their
book would have a few practise

355
00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,000
questions that are modelled,
then they'd start their

356
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:00,840
individual task underneath.
So the kids were still doing

357
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,000
everything they would have done.
Yeah, of course.

358
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:03,880
But without faffy whiteboards,
yeah.

359
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,920
Yeah, it does make sense because
like now I think about it, I

360
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,440
used whiteboards considerably
less towards the end of my

361
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,240
career than the beginning,
probably for the same reason

362
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,000
really.
And and some kids just genuinely

363
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,520
hate writing on whiteboards.
I don't I don't really.

364
00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:18,280
I know those little whiteboards.
I I wouldn't probably wouldn't

365
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,480
really like you've got really
like fat pen and they and

366
00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,920
they're always like it's like a
90% chance you're getting one

367
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,240
that's like almost out of ink.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

368
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:28,840
I'm like, how can?
They all be nearly It's just

369
00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,640
another thing in school that we
don't have enough of that I'm

370
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,080
putting into my lessons
constantly and it just winds me.

371
00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,960
Up the white boards have they've
been there for 60-7 years and

372
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,280
they're all like completely
tattered and they've got so many

373
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:41,280
layers of like dried.
Ink on they've got they've got

374
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:42,640
match on it from three years
ago.

375
00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:44,600
They know the answer because
it's on the board already.

376
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,280
And you know why?
It's because there's no rubbers

377
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,080
to run them out, so they just
get left there at the end of the

378
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:49,960
year.
They're baked on, Yeah, but I

379
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,600
know what you mean.
I also have a bit of a lot of

380
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,000
children who they do their work
in out be beautiful.

381
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,440
They get it right.
They're like rub it off then in

382
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,720
that one and they've got and
they'd hate rubbing out all

383
00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,400
their work and then it would
become low stakes, which I know

384
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,560
it's a good it's a good thing to
have low stakes work sometimes

385
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:04,880
because they're trying stuff
doesn't matter.

386
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:06,680
They get it wrong.
But I think what you do is you

387
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,520
just tackle that and you say, I
don't care if you get it wrong

388
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:09,720
or not.
I just want to see you trying it

389
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:11,240
in your book and then that
becomes OK then one.

390
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:12,960
Of the best things we ever did
with our school when we were

391
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:14,760
when we were mass lead, I was
mass lead.

392
00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,200
Obviously you were assistant to
mass lead was we implemented the

393
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,600
whole back of the work back for
the book, sorry, work, back to

394
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,400
the work, back to the workbook,
back to the book.

395
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,320
Because it was great because it
was like you said, when stuff

396
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,000
wasn't super low stakes and
actually the kids could have a

397
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:28,520
bit of pride in the starter that
you're doing.

398
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:30,840
It was nice to record it.
And as a teacher you did then

399
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:32,920
have the option if you really
wanted to, you could have a look

400
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:33,920
at what they were doing in the
back.

401
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,480
We quite often said we're not
going to look at these kids.

402
00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,080
This is like, this is what you'd
be doing on your white boards,

403
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:39,560
You know, just just get it down
on paper.

404
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:41,440
You can then they can practise
the format, they can put it in

405
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,320
boxes.
And like I said, as a teacher,

406
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,520
you can then have a little look
and be like, Oh yeah, they were

407
00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,160
doing this wrong or whatever.
To clarify what you mean is at

408
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,200
the start of the lesson we'd
always do like we'd have like

409
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,760
15/20/25 minutes of every single
lesson which was down to the

410
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,440
teacher recapping stuff that
your kids need to go over or

411
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,640
doing a bit of pre teaching or
just doing an extra bit of work

412
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,560
basically that we wanted to
separate from the lesson.

413
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,520
So yeah, you're right, you had
kids practising and I think this

414
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,600
is so important, it's so
important to get kids on paper

415
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,040
as well.
Doesn't matter where the

416
00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:12,440
questions come from.
The question could be on the

417
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,080
board, the question would be on
the iPad, the question could be

418
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:15,800
anywhere.
But it's important that the

419
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,680
children are practising on
squared paper as well, writing

420
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,320
it out because that's what
they're going to do eventually

421
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,720
as well in their test.
So yeah, I thought, I thought

422
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,640
that worked really well.
And we've really gone off a

423
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,000
tangent here of handwriting.
We're getting excited by maths.

424
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,320
It was a good meme question, and
it became the deepest question

425
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:30,760
of the.
Episode there was APS by the

426
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,560
way, on this.
PS Love the podcast.

427
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,680
You're both doing a great job of
being a voice for teachers.

428
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,360
So I think most teachers do also
hate whiteboards.

429
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:38,280
That must be.
It must be true.

430
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:39,080
Thank you.
That's really nice.

431
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,040
You also did like a really nice
Donald Trump pose as you said

432
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:42,640
that.
Love, love you guys.

433
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,160
Or let's not mention that guy on
here.

434
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,440
Polarising review bomb from some
people from Donald Trump.

435
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,520
Get ready for a truth later on.
The good guys at THC repeat.

436
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,720
I had such fondness for them.
Oh, what is that going on?

437
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,600
No, but it turned out to be
negative eventually.

438
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,319
He hates us now because we
didn't, we didn't say that I

439
00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:07,920
should win a Nobel Peace Prize.
The guys at THC repeat, they,

440
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,200
they're not backing me for a
Nobel Peace Prize, They're

441
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:11,640
saying I shouldn't win a Nobel
Peace Prize.

442
00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,480
I've done the most for maths.
I've done the most for maths.

443
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,000
I even started calling it maths
and not maths like we do in this

444
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,560
country.
Make America great again.

445
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,480
Make math great again.
Wow, maths.

446
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,280
Thank you.
Thank you, Sir.

447
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,200
Donald Trump.
Please God, what are we doing

448
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,240
here?
No.

449
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,360
Do you know what?
That would be interesting,

450
00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:32,480
wouldn't?
It I mean if he offered.

451
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,560
I've always talked to myself, by
the way, on this very quickly.

452
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,200
I know we're really going off
tangents here, but I want to

453
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,800
know from the listeners as well.
Like, would you actually want to

454
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,240
hear us talk to more people like
government now?

455
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,800
Yeah, please.
Not these two more people, these

456
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,520
two talking again because we did
that Greg Jenner episode last

457
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,680
week, right?
And I, I think obviously we've

458
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,960
got more listeners than ever
before from when we've done

459
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,360
guests previously, but I felt
like I had so many people get in

460
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:05,200
touch and say, Oh my God, I
absolutely loved that episode

461
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,040
because Greg's obviously amazing
what he does.

462
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,280
He's an amazing historian, He
runs podcasts, etcetera.

463
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,200
But I'm just thinking like
would, would the listeners want

464
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,560
to hear more from people like in
government, like people who, who

465
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,480
have more power and, and just
like, what kind of guests do you

466
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,040
want to see?
So I guess I'm just whacking out

467
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:21,760
there to you now.
Maybe you could join on

468
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,480
WhatsApp, but I just say you.
Very much think, though, I'm

469
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,200
quietly thinking, I'm going to
mention the polls.

470
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:27,760
I'm going to mention the poll in
the WhatsApp community.

471
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,440
I'm going to mention the poll.
We could do like, you know,

472
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,760
suggestions of who you want to
hear us talk to because I

473
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,560
because the the coming full
circle back to Donald Trump, who

474
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,760
obviously think is I think is an
idiot.

475
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:37,920
I'm just going to.
Say a lunatic.

476
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,600
Yeah, but I would, I would
absolutely, I would absolutely

477
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,320
talk to monopod cast.
And there's people out there who

478
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,560
go, you shouldn't be giving them
platforms, all this stuff.

479
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,480
I talk to anyone.
I talk to those reform like

480
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,640
people who've been on the thing
saying in our schools, they're

481
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,760
just brainwashing our kids.
I'd love to talk to them because

482
00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:56,080
I'd be like, what?
What do you mean?

483
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:57,040
Like I'd have to get to the
bottom.

484
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,120
What's your solution?
Yeah, I think they'd be good

485
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:00,880
guests.
Hopefully you guys agree,

486
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:01,800
because if not, we'll do it
anyway.

487
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,320
Sounds of it.
Dunn's made his mind up.

488
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,240
Dunn's mind is made.
No, no, no, no, we're just there

489
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:08,120
again.
We'll see, right?

490
00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:09,320
Let's let's first try another
one.

491
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:11,480
I'm going to go to Instagram.
Don't worry, I don't go to this

492
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,240
Instagram questions.
Don't worry, it will come.

493
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,920
But there were just so many
great questions from this

494
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,320
WhatsApp group.
Really set in that group there

495
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:18,160
though.
Yeah, it's great.

496
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,480
Get in there because we're going
to pick your question.

497
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,880
Hi, I'm a trainee to.
I'm not this person just so you.

498
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:25,880
I did get that.
Yeah, this is the question of

499
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:27,120
honesty.
Yeah, I'm not just starting to

500
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:27,680
talk to you.
Thank you.

501
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:29,040
I appreciate the clarity.
Cool.

502
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:30,640
Hi, I'm a training.
Not me.

503
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:32,000
Yeah, not you.
Training teacher.

504
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:33,600
So completely new to.
I'm not new to it.

505
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,520
No, it's a guy.
It's the this person.

506
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,800
Yeah, completely new to all
this.

507
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,560
You talk a lot about
prioritising tasks as well as

508
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,120
recognising toxic schools, but
if you have nothing to reference

509
00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:48,040
this, how do you recognise which
tasks are important and what

510
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,000
practises are toxic?
I'm feeling quite overwhelmed

511
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,240
with the million and one tasks.
My lecturers will randomly say

512
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,840
Oh yeah you should read through
that or you should practise this

513
00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,560
or you should reach research
that topic at home.

514
00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:03,320
If I did each task they said.
I would literally never sleep.

515
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,280
This is from Emma.
Such a good question, Emma.

516
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:07,760
Thank you.
Because I remember and we've

517
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,520
talked about it on this podcast
before, I remember feeling the

518
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,760
same that early you are on in
your career and obviously you're

519
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,080
like super early on because
you're still.

520
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,040
Training I'm not the Emma is.
Yeah, no, you're not Emma, are

521
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:15,520
you?
I'm not Emma.

522
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,120
I'm just checking on.
I'm reading from the point of

523
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:19,120
view of the oh, I say, well,
that changes things.

524
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,440
Yeah, like, so I'm not, I'm not
going to deny that it is way

525
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,600
harder then because you just
literally have less reference

526
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,280
points because you haven't been
doing it as long when you've

527
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,640
been at a couple of schools and
you've worked for 10 years.

528
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,760
You, you start, you start to get
the hang of hang on a minute.

529
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:32,880
I've seen this before.
That was pointless.

530
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,720
But I think my only advice if
I'm thinking about, again, just

531
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:40,200
talking to myself in those early
days as well, is just really,

532
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:41,480
really try.
There's two things actually,

533
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,600
really try to think logically
about every single task and just

534
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,440
think to yourself, if I didn't
do it, what do I think the

535
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,120
outcome would be?
Because there are some things

536
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:50,720
that are blindingly obvious
where it's like, that would be

537
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,480
terrible If you didn't plan that
lesson and then you went to

538
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:54,960
teacher, that would just be
dreadful.

539
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,800
There are some other things that
you might think that probably

540
00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,440
wouldn't be so bad.
You know what, that might just,

541
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,800
that might just help you
prioritise your list a bit more.

542
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,200
I think as a training teacher,
you should try and do as much as

543
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,680
you can, like absorb it whilst
you've got that support network

544
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:07,920
there.
But Speaking of support

545
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,600
networks, that's my other point
is when you don't have that

546
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,520
reference point, go out of your
way to to try and like connect

547
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,400
with other people.
Maybe you can talk to some

548
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,240
teachers in the school that
you're doing your placement on

549
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,640
and just really try and connect
to people that have got that bit

550
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,720
of experience that can help you
decide whether something is like

551
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,480
a high priority task or a low
priority task or just not worth

552
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,520
doing at all and just use them
until it becomes second nature

553
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,200
for you.
That's that's my sort of two

554
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,640
prongs to.
That yeah, I think when you're a

555
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,120
trainee teacher, a lot of the
time you're being reflective is

556
00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:38,560
the most important thing.
Like, I do feel like when you're

557
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,440
at the early, earliest point of
your career as a teacher, you

558
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,960
are going to and try most things
at least once and you are gonna

559
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:45,960
get to the point where you feel
like you're doing loads and

560
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,720
loads and loads.
And I think what's really

561
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:49,480
important is to quickly be
reflective on that.

562
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,280
That's the advice I'd give,
which is, yeah, try stuff.

563
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,280
Yeah, see.
And then if you're thinking, oh

564
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:56,640
God, I am really burning out,
then once you've tried it, you

565
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,120
can be like, okay, actually, do
you know what?

566
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,280
I've done these five things.
Two of them were clearly the

567
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,520
least important.
So I will just try next time to

568
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,520
not do them and see how that
impacts my practise.

569
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,160
And like you said, you some
stuff is really obvious.

570
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,880
But I would go back to when,
when you mentioned here about

571
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,800
how, you know, the lecturers
might randomly drop in like, oh,

572
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:14,800
yeah, yeah, you should read
through that.

573
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:16,440
Oh, yeah.
By the way, you should practise

574
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:17,360
this.
Oh, yeah.

575
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:18,000
OK.
Of course.

576
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,880
Why don't you research that
topic at home because it's

577
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,680
really interesting.
You have to take that all with a

578
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,320
pinch of salt.
You have to understand that when

579
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,680
when they're dropping that into
the lecture, there's one of two

580
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,640
things happening #1 Eva, they've
completely lost touch what it's

581
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,320
like to be a teacher, and they
just don't fathom the fact that

582
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:36,720
you obviously don't have time to
do that.

583
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,480
Yeah.
And at that point, you have to

584
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,560
just be like, look, it's great,
but I'm just not going to do it.

585
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,000
Or they are just genuinely being
nice and giving suggestions and

586
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:45,400
they're like, yeah, you could
try that.

587
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:46,400
Yeah.
If you have a bit of extra time,

588
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,840
you're going to do that.
But don't, don't cancel your

589
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,600
evening class that you go and do
at the gym.

590
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,880
Don't, don't knock me out with
your mate because your lecturer

591
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,760
said in passing once you should
research this topic.

592
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,960
You can learn things on the job.
And if I look, if I look back at

593
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,520
my career, what my advice would
be to you as a trainee teacher.

594
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,120
So you're not even, you're not
even qualified yet.

595
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,960
Do everything you can, but you
have to, you have to at that

596
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,680
point, it's hard to do.
But if you can take control of

597
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,920
your time management sooner
rather than later and just try

598
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,160
different things and try not
doing one thing and seeing how

599
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,680
it ends up, I think that will
set you in good step for your

600
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,120
ECT year.
I think that will set you in

601
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:25,320
good step for the rest of your
career because if you start to

602
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,280
get that right early, you're not
going to get it right straight

603
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:29,560
away.
And I can see why you're burning

604
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:30,880
out because a lot of trainee
teachers do.

605
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,080
It is.
It's tough.

606
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,080
That trainee year is such a big
leap.

607
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,440
I think between doing all your
research and your uni lectures,

608
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,560
as well as then doing all your
placements where you're

609
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,720
essentially become a teacher.
It's not easy.

610
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,480
It is hard work.
I don't think there's a way to

611
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,280
make it not hard work, but there
is a way to for your attitude to

612
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,560
be reflective and quickly act on
things that you figure out are

613
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,520
less important and do less of
them.

614
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I have a small follow up

615
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:56,840
question for you as well.
I want to be really, really

616
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,240
honest.
When you were at university and,

617
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,720
and, and the lecturers are sort
of saying, Oh yeah, you should,

618
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,560
you should just read this book.
Like this is fantastic for

619
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,200
behaviour management.
This book's fantastic for this

620
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,600
pedagogy.
How many of those books did you

621
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,400
actually pick up and read cover
to cover?

622
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,280
Like 5%.
You're being that's.

623
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,640
No, because I think I remember
reading one or two.

624
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,080
Cover to cover whole thing.
Oh, well, cover to cover.

625
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:21,240
None.
Yeah, Absolutely none.

626
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,200
Because I don't think that's.
I also don't think that's a good

627
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:24,240
use of your time.
Yeah.

628
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,240
A lot of the time with these
kind of things, you can skip to

629
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,480
a chapter that's relevant.
You might get some reading where

630
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,000
it's like, oh, yeah, chapter 12
does this.

631
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,000
Because of that, it's physically
impossible to do everything

632
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,280
unless you are literally a
bookworm.

633
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:35,920
And that is your life.
And that becomes your hobby.

634
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,720
Yeah, crack on and do that.
But realistically, for a normal

635
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,480
person who doesn't have, like, a
massive interest in like this,

636
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,200
psychological, not Matilda,
Yeah.

637
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,200
Who wants to go and play fire
side football in the evening

638
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:48,480
instead of reading a book cover
to cover?

639
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,240
It's just not realistic.
And I think, yeah, I think just

640
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,240
just be sensible with your time.
When I was a training teacher,

641
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,480
I, in terms of my week, right, I
would probably spend 60 to 70

642
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,520
hours of my week doing school
related stuff.

643
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,080
Yeah.
And, and that is completely,

644
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,760
completely unsustainable.
You, you can't keep that up.

645
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,360
No, it's impossible At the point
A, a huge chunk of that was

646
00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:12,400
because I wanted to do it and I
enjoyed it and I liked it.

647
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,040
But there was still 5 to 10 to
15 hours a week probably where I

648
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,600
could have just not done
something I could have done

649
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,600
less.
Look, would I have been in this

650
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,680
good stead eventually to to end
the in the end goal when I'm in

651
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,720
my NQT year or one 2-3 years
down the line, being more

652
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,960
confident to push things back
because I feel better at

653
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,720
something that's hard for me to
tell.

654
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,640
I don't know if those hours that
I put in allowed me to, you

655
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,040
know, strip things back quicker.
Sure, sure.

656
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,560
But I do think that if I'm
talking to a training teacher

657
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,240
like you, Emma, who's asked this
question, I think you have to

658
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:42,880
not beat yourself up if you
don't do everything.

659
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,120
And you have to understand that
you have to have a life.

660
00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:48,360
And if you're being asked to do
things that end up burning you

661
00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:49,480
out completely and you
literally.

662
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,080
You don't have time to do it,
that you were being asked to do

663
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,360
too much and you can still be
successful without having to get

664
00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:56,960
to that level.
And everyone's lives are

665
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,640
different.
I remember training in the same

666
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,800
sort of position to you.
I had all this time I could

667
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:01,600
spend on it.
I did.

668
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,920
And there were other people that
were training who didn't.

669
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,680
They did not have that time.
I had some students that who who

670
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,200
were like, who are parents
already and they just, they did

671
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,480
not have the time that I had to
sink into stuff.

672
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,480
And you know what?
It was fine, you know.

673
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,360
Did I read a book cover to
cover?

674
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:18,960
Absolutely not.
Did I still pick up lots of

675
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,320
pedagogical things that improve
my teaching?

676
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:22,760
Yeah, of course I did.
Did I occasionally read

677
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,360
summaries?
Yeah, but mostly summaries.

678
00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:26,120
If I had ChatGPT then I would
have been laughing.

679
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:27,480
Yeah, but that's the issue.
That's the issue.

680
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,480
Now ChatGPT, at least a summary
of a book is written by the

681
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,240
author.
The problem you have now with

682
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,440
some reasons, etcetera.
And ChatGPT, there's been

683
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,600
multiple times where you've come
to me saying, yeah, I've got

684
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,000
this summary of chat TBT and
it's been wrong, me wrong.

685
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,240
So let's not be saying that
Hayden to all artists they got

686
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,440
ChatGPT now.
No, still get the book, still

687
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,360
read the summary, still go to
the source itself and just take

688
00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:48,440
things out of a pinch of salt.
When you're in academia, that's.

689
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,320
For sure not a fair play.
Right before we crack on with

690
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,640
some Instagram questions, just a
quick reminder that people you

691
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,640
can rate this podcast wherever
you get your podcast from really

692
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,320
helps us out and share it with a
friend.

693
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,440
That's it, that's it, That's the
segment, that's it, that's done.

694
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:04,440
Just share it, rate it.
We're happy, right?

695
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,440
This question is from Instagram
because we're not going to leave

696
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,360
you out you Instagram if you're
not chosen to join the WhatsApp

697
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:11,560
group for some reason.
You could join it though, OK?

698
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,880
This is like an amalgamation of
three separate questions that we

699
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,200
got.
So clearly people want to hear

700
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:16,680
this from us.
OK?

701
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,560
So I'm going to summarise it in
one question, right?

702
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,440
How did it feel when September
came along and you were not in

703
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,800
the classroom anymore?
How did that transition work for

704
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,120
you?
How are you feeling now?

705
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:30,280
Or do you think it was the right
decision?

706
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:31,440
I mean, that's a really good
question.

707
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,360
I'm going to try not to be silly
if you don't, because my gut

708
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:34,800
reaction there was, Well, yeah.
Well, good.

709
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,480
Yeah.
No, let's, let's be really

710
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:37,960
serious.
Like honestly, I'm actually

711
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,160
really interested to hear from
you because we've spoken about

712
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,160
it briefly, but I'm going to
give the context briefly before

713
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,000
you give you anyone listening.
Now, Hayden taught for 10 years

714
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,480
in primary school.
I taught for nine years in

715
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,360
primary school.
And this September is the first

716
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:51,720
year where we've not been in the
classroom.

717
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,000
So we don't have our own
classes.

718
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,120
We're not in school.
We were part time for a few

719
00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:57,920
years.
We were full time for most of

720
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,120
our career the first time.
Now we've completely stepped out

721
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:02,840
of it.
What are your thoughts?

722
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,000
I was.
Obviously, if you've listened to

723
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,240
this podcast a while, we talked
a lot about the lead up to it

724
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,160
and we were worried.
I think there was, I think it's

725
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,400
fair to say there were big parts
of our brains where we're like,

726
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,640
are we definitely making the
right decision here?

727
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,480
And I did feel like that all the
way up to day one.

728
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,760
Day one came along and that sort
of that first week in September

729
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,000
finished and I think my
overwhelming filming,

730
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,480
overwhelming filming,
overwhelming feeling filming, I

731
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,560
should say the ability.
Speaking to, it's usually you.

732
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,800
My overwhelming feeling was a
sense of relief.

733
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:37,920
And it sounds, it's going to
sound.

734
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,360
That sounds really mean.
But relief for my mind in terms

735
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:46,040
of I forgot how taxing on the
mind being a teacher is.

736
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,160
And if you're not a teacher or
listen to that thing, Oh, we

737
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,400
bloody teachers always moaning.
There is just something to be

738
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,960
said about the fact that you
just can't escape it.

739
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,680
It's always in your mind.
I'm always at the weekend.

740
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,720
I'm always thinking, have I
planned everything for this

741
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,040
week?
Is everything ready?

742
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,840
Like it's just always there.
And not having that in my mind

743
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,080
was was quite freeing, I would
say.

744
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,360
It's not like we're just doing
nothing now, you know, we sat

745
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,000
around all day filming podcasts
and that's basically it, isn't

746
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:11,640
it?
Like we were obviously busy all

747
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,120
week with our other stuff, but
there was just this like weight

748
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,480
off my shoulders almost said,
oh, I can actually just not be

749
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,240
constantly panicking about not
having enough time.

750
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,360
And I feel like that I had that
in teaching regardless of

751
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:23,680
whether we had other things
going on or not.

752
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,840
I think the mental load.
Relief is insane.

753
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,760
I think you absolutely just
cannot fathom how much of a

754
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,560
mental load you carry as a
teacher until you stop doing

755
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,440
after.
And I think I had a lot of

756
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,440
people who I knew that had
careers before teaching who went

757
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,800
into teaching and would look at
us and be like, guys, you've got

758
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,480
no idea that this is not normal
more for a job.

759
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,000
This is not a normal amount to
carry in your mind.

760
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,160
And you know, you've got 32
children's lives almost at your

761
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,400
fingertips of like keeping them
safe, keeping them engaged,

762
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,080
keeping them, keeping them
learning, etcetera.

763
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,720
You know, looking after them
special educational needs is

764
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,600
down to you as well.
That there's so much on the

765
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,840
teacher's mind that is so much
extra to simply as well just

766
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:05,600
planning good lessons and
delivering them and assessing

767
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,080
them that you just can't fathom
it.

768
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,560
And I realised how incredibly
stressful teaching is after

769
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:14,480
having left it.
Yeah.

770
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,080
Yeah, even when like I did about
you, but I found it made me even

771
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,240
realise that even the school
holidays, even the summer

772
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,640
holidays, which are the longest
time off, it still felt

773
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,440
different.
It doesn't feel like that.

774
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,880
It like when I was three weeks
into the summer holidays, any

775
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,040
previous year thinking, ah, this
is as free as it gets, you know,

776
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,320
nothing to think about.
It's not the same.

777
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,960
I still felt more free than that
because there is just something

778
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,400
to say about that workload
burden on your mind of of of

779
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,000
teaching.
Yeah.

780
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,120
You know, it's coming around.
Yeah.

781
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:41,040
You know.
It's round the corner.

782
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:42,320
It's just there.
It's yeah that that dates.

783
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,440
Come that September, it's coming
back and you, every time you

784
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,160
think about it, you're thinking
of the 19 jobs you've got to do

785
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,440
before you even start your first
day working back on the job

786
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,440
because that is what teaching
is, constant workload outside of

787
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,680
work so that you can get your
work done in school.

788
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,600
It's just work, work, work,
layers of it.

789
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,960
So I, I have no, I do not regret
it at all.

790
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,440
And I was worried that I would.
I genuinely was.

791
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,360
I do I miss the kids.
I still miss the kids exactly as

792
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:07,520
much as I thought I'd miss the
kids.

793
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,320
Yeah, like that, that is like I
can compartmentalise that

794
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,240
feeling.
But yeah, a very, very positive

795
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,880
change.
I'm glad we did it like it was

796
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,040
needed.
We were getting to the point

797
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,000
where it was like, we've got to
prioritise something.

798
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,240
We don't have enough time to do
the things we want to do outside

799
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:23,840
of school and school.
And.

800
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,400
And I'm.
I'm pleased you made the change.

801
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:26,800
The biggest thing I noticed is
in the.

802
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,760
Evening so I don't feel like a
zombie like it's insane as well

803
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,920
when you do a day in the school
like you get to the end of the

804
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,840
day and you think oh God, OK,
yeah, I can't just going to sit

805
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,520
down and I don't feel like I can
do anything else no, no, whereas

806
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,200
now this flexibility and this
freedom I feel like a human I

807
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,040
feel like a human at 6:30 in the
evening which I've spent my

808
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,240
whole life not feeling like
after a day of school and it's

809
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,920
And I've done a day of work this
is what I can't get my head

810
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,440
around it's like I've done a day
of work and I think it'll be

811
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,120
interesting in people listening
actually just very briefly if we

812
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,600
could just go through like what
a week looks for us now so I

813
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,400
think a big thing for us is with
teaching.

814
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,120
Obviously it's our absolute, you
know, it's our joy, It's what

815
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,040
brought us pleasure.
We absolutely love teaching

816
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,000
children and helping them.
And so, you know, we still want

817
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,720
to do it, still in education.
So for example, we block out our

818
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,840
day for podcast.
Now we'll film the main podcast

819
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,040
and we'll film the Q&A and we'll
we'll do this and then we might

820
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,000
think about some content for,
for online, etcetera, and what

821
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,560
we can do on our socials.
And then for another day, we'll

822
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,560
be thinking, cool, well, we've
got our tutoring business now.

823
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,520
We work with teachers still some
of our good, good friends who

824
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,320
we've known for since the start
of our career.

825
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,680
You know, I always think to the
fact that the person who

826
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,640
literally trained me now works
with me and our tutoring company

827
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,800
is a big part of what we do.
And I love, I love that.

828
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,080
I love the idea of working with
teaching staff.

829
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,520
We still deliver like lessons to
children, we're making and

830
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,000
content and, and videos for
children to watch and, and

831
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,280
improve their maths and their
English.

832
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:47,880
So we're still getting that
teaching fix.

833
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,520
And I think what's really
important and we can just kind

834
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,280
of, you know, just flirt.
This idea out there right now is

835
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,000
we're also working on something
for schools to use with maths.

836
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,400
And maths is our passion.
It's our, it's our joy.

837
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,640
It's what, it's what I love,
it's what I think I'm good at.

838
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,040
And we're working on something
that can hopefully help

839
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,760
thousands of children and this
idea of being able to unlock,

840
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,000
you know, brilliant, this, this
bond you have with your class is

841
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,560
special and nothing will replace
that.

842
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,080
But at the very least, if I'm
not doing that anymore, I can

843
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:16,560
now be working on something
elsewhere.

844
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,560
I can hopefully have an impact
on a hundred, 1000 times more

845
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:26,000
children whilst doing what I
love and not having a, a brain

846
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:30,240
full of fuzz and just 67 jobs
I've been told I've got to do by

847
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:31,600
the end of the day, which I just
can't do.

848
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,600
It's so freeing.
And I think to answer the

849
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,000
question, I think it's the best,
my best decision we've made,

850
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,400
which it's sad at the same time
because I wish it wasn't the

851
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,120
best decision I made.
I wish I could be teaching until

852
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,320
I retire and it'd be realistic.
But the job's insane now.

853
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,360
It's just insane.
And, and I think you can get a

854
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:55,720
lot of the good parts of the job
in other avenues, which is not

855
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,720
necessarily a good thing for our
society.

856
00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,840
People like us should be
teachers.

857
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,200
We should be teachers and and
it's sad that it's got to the

858
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,440
point where 40,000 of us leave
every year because it's just

859
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,520
completely broken.
So I'm relieved.

860
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,800
I'm happy.
On a personal note, I think it's

861
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,920
the best thing we've done.
But I'm sad that that's the

862
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:13,960
case.
Yeah, definitely.

863
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,159
Yeah, I feel.
I feel exactly the same, but I

864
00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:17,639
think the sad thing is really
important.

865
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:19,600
So I don't want anyone thinking,
oh, they just don't care

866
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:20,120
anymore.
They're gone.

867
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,719
No, no, I care a lot actually.
Like I, I don't think I'll be

868
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:24,440
able to replace the love for
teaching I had when I loved

869
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,400
teaching the most in my career,
whenever that was maybe a couple

870
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:27,920
of years in, while I'm still in
that honeymoon period.

871
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,480
And maybe even compared to other
people who say, yeah, back in

872
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,880
the 90s, like I was my time that
I loved teaching so much and

873
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,840
it's just not the same anymore.
It's a shame.

874
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:37,520
It shouldn't be that way.
People should want to be

875
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,320
teachers their whole career.
And I honestly don't know anyone

876
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,280
that does.
I genuinely don't know any

877
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,400
teacher who would say to me,
yeah, yeah, I'm buzzing to do

878
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,880
this till I retire.
They're all saying, Oh no, this

879
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,440
is completely unsustainable.
I, I can, I will not be able to

880
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,480
do this until I retire.
That is not a conversation that

881
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,840
should be had from teachers.
But yeah, big a bit sneaky,

882
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,200
sneaky peek there to what we're
doing and who the funk?

883
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,120
Who the funk, eh?
That me and you would

884
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,400
immediately quit teaching, quit
teaching and immediately start

885
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:04,560
working on something mass
related.

886
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,480
As if we love maths.
We mass leads forever in our

887
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:07,200
schools.
But there we are.

888
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,320
That's some stuff to reveal.
If only we had a place to reveal

889
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,400
it at some point.
Keep keep glad guys.

890
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,920
And you know, we'll be, we're
looking for your, your advice

891
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,200
too, honestly.
So we're looking for your

892
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:16,760
opinions.
Maybe you can join the WhatsApp

893
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,640
group, I don't know.
OK, question from our little

894
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,640
group we have, I find it hard to
create displays that haven't any

895
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,960
effect on children with the
exception of displays that

896
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,360
celebrate children's success.
Before I finish the question, I

897
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,400
feel like that is such a common
thing.

898
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,520
When we talked about displays
before, it's like a lot, a lot

899
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,120
of people will say no, they're
fine.

900
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,600
But just when it's like whack
the work up and it's like a nice

901
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,760
little, you know, if you do
great work, your work is kind of

902
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,560
the wall, and that can have like
a really good impact.

903
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,240
Let me carry on.
If time, money, resources had no

904
00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:54,200
limits, what displays would you
have in your classrooms to have

905
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,120
the biggest impact on children?
Alternatively, in a more

906
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,600
realistic world, what displays
do you think currently have the

907
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,880
biggest impact?
OK, it's like I wrote this

908
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,400
question.
I've all talked to myself, shall

909
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,080
I?
Because I feel like what the

910
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,400
person that wrote this is
probably thinking what I already

911
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:09,520
think based on the way they've
worded it.

912
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,000
It's a good question.
I think there are.

913
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,200
It is a really.
Good question.

914
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,480
Because I would only pick even
with all the money and

915
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,320
resources.
Wow displays.

916
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,240
If I'm thinking I've had loads
of money and resources, I'd be

917
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:22,000
like, let's make some really
cool displays that are

918
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,960
inspiring.
Like I'm thinking particularly

919
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,920
for topics or history would be
on it, what would be on a wow

920
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:28,120
display?
Literally.

921
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,960
Just like, really.
Interesting, fun, visual,

922
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:32,920
creative things to like,
literally make some be like, oh,

923
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,560
that looks cool.
I wonder if that's about

924
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:35,720
history.
Oh, we're gonna we're gonna be

925
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:37,200
learning about that topic, Mrs
Stevens.

926
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,520
That's it.
That's it's not not filled with

927
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,360
facts and all we've got to get
your key vocabulary and none of

928
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:43,800
that rubbish.
They could have some facts.

929
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,560
It could.
No, probably not it.

930
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,840
Might be like did you know the
the the.

931
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,440
Egyptians did this, the same
thing we said like could inspire

932
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:51,680
them.
You could have something short

933
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,840
if it's through the lens.
Of it's inspiring them and it's

934
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,360
wow, that's fine.
But with it, if it's like I've

935
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,480
got to get this up there, the
quick is a tick box, the no,

936
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,360
just get in the bin.
That and displaying kids work.

937
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,640
I think that I think displaying
kids work is literally the best,

938
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,680
hands down top of the hierarchy
way to use a display.

939
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,760
And I've always felt that in my
career.

940
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,400
I've always found it weird that
that's kind of pushed, being

941
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:12,840
pushed down to the bottom and
it's like, oh, now you've got to

942
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,400
have this display that has the
the current text that you're

943
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:16,680
reading on it and all the
vocabulary.

944
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,480
I'm like, yeah, I get the idea
of this.

945
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,680
But can I instead of doing that,
can I just put their writing on

946
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:22,760
the wall?
Because they'll, they'll love

947
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,600
that way more and look at it and
they don't look at the thing

948
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,760
like it's not used the other
way.

949
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,800
Because I've did, you know, it's
2025 and I've got a smart board

950
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,800
that has all of this stuff right
in front of them when I need it.

951
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,160
So I don't really need it over
there.

952
00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:36,720
Like to me, those displays at
the bottom, I would pick Wow

953
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:40,120
displays and and displaying
children's work celebration

954
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,360
displays.
Even if I had all the money and

955
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:43,880
time in the world, I'd still
pick them too.

956
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:45,600
What about like notice boards
or?

957
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,800
You know, class roles or all
that kind of, I'm kind of

958
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,000
ignoring those, but you might
have that in.

959
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,920
The corner some that's fine.
You have a one off thing for

960
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,040
your so do you think then like
if someone's because?

961
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,280
A lot of people have said, you
know, a lot of people hype up

962
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,680
working walls and, and what I
mean by working wall is like,

963
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,640
you know, let's say maths.
I know for a fact in your actual

964
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,720
classroom you had like a what,
you know, white board paper that

965
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:09,960
you can put up and you had that
wow wall there.

966
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:11,680
And you set that up as like a
working wall.

967
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,920
Sorry, not a wow wall, a working
wall where you know, if you're

968
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,040
doing place value, maybe you'll
go and model something on the

969
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,640
wall and and keep it up.
It's it's, I find it hard to

970
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,160
argue with someone when they say
it's really good and useful for

971
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:23,720
their class.
So like, that's a good thing.

972
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:26,480
I'm like, I find it tricky to
come back and be like, no, it's

973
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,000
not so because of course it
could be, But are you not having

974
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,480
it then or not in my world?
No, no, honestly.

975
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,560
Like if I'm being brutally
honest, because I have

976
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,680
experimented with these things
as well, after a time I just

977
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,280
stopped using them.
Is that your fault though?

978
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,280
Is, is, is.
That is that bad from?

979
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,120
Is that just you being mad?
I don't think so.

980
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:44,400
I think I don't think.
I don't.

981
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,240
Think it was an accident I
stopped using them.

982
00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:48,440
I just, I think I stopped using
things when I see no value in

983
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:49,880
them anymore.
I think that's just me as a

984
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,200
teacher.
I, I, I do things less when I

985
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,240
have evaluated in my mind, Oh,
that's not useful.

986
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,000
So it's it's whatever you do,
the right thing is.

987
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,280
What you're saying for me it is,
yeah, not for everybody.

988
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,120
Because I do, because I
genuinely think someone next

989
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,040
door to me will use their
working more as a genuinely

990
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,600
valid tool to replace something
that I might do like.

991
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,200
I I, the only reason reason I
would choose in my classroom not

992
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,640
to do something, it's because I
feel like whatever benefits that

993
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,400
thing is doing, I'm already
providing that through some

994
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,240
other teaching practise of my
own style.

995
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,040
That's it.
So whatever that working or did,

996
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,560
do you know what I had in my, in
my particular classroom, and

997
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,160
this is specific to me, is I had
an actual massive whiteboard

998
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,000
right next to my smart board.
And whatever I did in that

999
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,240
working, or do you know what I
ended up doing?

1000
00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:29,400
I just ended up putting it on
the whiteboard that's literally

1001
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,320
in front of them rather than the
what that rather than the small

1002
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:32,840
working wall that was on the
side of the room.

1003
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:34,720
And it just became redundant.
And I was like, yeah, it was a

1004
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:35,880
cool idea.
I gave it a go for a bit.

1005
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:37,720
It made no difference, no
impact.

1006
00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:39,600
I evaluated that as a teacher
and I was like, I don't need to

1007
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:40,520
do this.
It's a waste of my time.

1008
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:42,800
And I think a lot of teachers
would be in the same boat.

1009
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,040
And I think other teachers
wouldn't.

1010
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:45,960
And they'd be like, no, I don't.
I don't have the luxury of

1011
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:47,680
having this massive whiteboard
at the front where you can just

1012
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,240
leave stuff up there whilst
you're teaching on your smart

1013
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:50,920
board.
This working more does that for

1014
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,200
me.
And I'm like, OK, fair enough,

1015
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,480
that's cool.
But I don't think they're

1016
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,320
essential.
Whereas if I had to have classic

1017
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,960
displays in my classroom and I'm
picking what?

1018
00:39:59,960 --> 00:40:01,160
But they're not essential
either, right?

1019
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,280
They're not essential, no.
So if I'm if I'm just picking.

1020
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,560
So nothing's essential, I guess
you could say really isn't it?

1021
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,880
If I'm just picking, I'm like
for you in the front in a

1022
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,760
universal sense, I think having
stuff that inspires kids and

1023
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,080
makes them feel great about
themselves is like, yeah, I'd

1024
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,240
just rather I'd pick that.
I'd pick that over the working

1025
00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:19,400
world, in all honesty.
And I'd find another way to to

1026
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,280
teach the kids like a working
world just at all.

1027
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,440
So is there is there anything?
That you think then transcends

1028
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,040
your personal opinion as a
teacher and is just better

1029
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,360
practise and whether you like it
or not, you should just do it.

1030
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,120
Like so for example, if some
research come out and they said,

1031
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,400
you know, actually, you know, it
is just better to have a working

1032
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,080
more.
It's just better because it can

1033
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:38,280
be up.
Then you're going to use the

1034
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,840
whiteboard for something else
after it's a special place on

1035
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:42,280
the wall.
There's some research behind

1036
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,760
this which says that this is on
the whole better for children.

1037
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,320
Is there a point as a teacher?
And I'm talking across the board

1038
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,160
now making a macro point where
actually do you know what?

1039
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,920
So I don't care if your opinion
is you don't like something, it

1040
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,720
is just better for them based in
research based in the general

1041
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,000
outcomes of the kids and the
fact you don't like it isn't

1042
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,120
enough and actually hey then you
should just do it.

1043
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,120
I think that line exists in.
General, I think there are

1044
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:10,960
things you could probably say
speaking to the children in

1045
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:15,080
monotone is a lot worse in all
situations than speaking with

1046
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,400
some interest in your voice, in
intonation, whatever.

1047
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,280
Like, and that's a really stupid
example, but I was trying to

1048
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,920
think of something mental and
I'm like, yeah, well, obviously

1049
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:23,960
we can just set that bar and
say, yeah, of course that's just

1050
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:25,320
better for everyone, even if you
didn't like it.

1051
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:26,640
I love speaking in monotone
though.

1052
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,760
Well, you just don't because
it's it's better to do this way.

1053
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,000
I just don't think working walls
falls into it.

1054
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,800
I don't.
I think it is case by case only.

1055
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,800
It cannot be blanket.
It just can't.

1056
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,120
But is that again your opinion?
So what I mean is like, if

1057
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,480
someone you know, if if equally
someone in leadership had a

1058
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,000
different opinion and they just
said, do you know what you know?

1059
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:48,680
I think we do all need to do
this.

1060
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,480
It's my opinion that we do and
it's your opinion that you don't

1061
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:54,760
do.
Should you just do it?

1062
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,600
Should you listen to your
leadership and be like, why they

1063
00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,120
want me to do this working more
thing?

1064
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,320
I'm doing it anyway on this on
this whiteboard.

1065
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,560
The only difference for me would
be I have to walk over and do it

1066
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,080
over there.
Yeah, do you it.

1067
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,320
And what I'm saying here is
would you say to someone you

1068
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:08,680
just have to swallow your pride
and do it?

1069
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,400
And the fact that you just
thinking, oh, I personally don't

1070
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,920
see the point in this tough.
Should you just do it or should

1071
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:20,000
you in a in in the opposite way,
say actually, the problem here

1072
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,600
is that you are from the top
down telling me I should do

1073
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,160
these things and that's wrong.
It's that one really, isn't it?

1074
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:26,360
To me, I'm like I.
Think you should swallow your

1075
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,040
pride and do it.
At the end of the day, we have

1076
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:29,280
to have some hierarchy in
school.

1077
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:30,800
I get that.
We're always like advocates for,

1078
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,040
yeah, we shouldn't do certain
things.

1079
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,120
Yeah, it's great.
But you can also be respectful

1080
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,280
in that way as well.
We've mentioned it before on

1081
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,720
Apollo.
You can be, you can come across

1082
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,680
quite rude by just refusing to
do something when actually it

1083
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,360
might be better to do it for a
bit and then go with evidence

1084
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:44,600
and say, oh, look, this didn't
make any impact.

1085
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,960
Do you mind if we haven't like
review this and I've and I've

1086
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,200
got evidence for you rather than
do it because it's my opinion.

1087
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,400
I do think that is but I've
learned that the hard way

1088
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,160
through my career.
That's that's just being

1089
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,440
stubborn and arrogant like that
doesn't always get you don't

1090
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,360
always get what you want.
Yeah, I I know.

1091
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,000
I tend to agree because my.
My worry is if you go down the

1092
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:06,160
route of simply, you know,
research says this, children

1093
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:07,920
learn best from direct
instruction.

1094
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,200
There has to be a partner talk
and then a retrieval task and

1095
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,800
then a task of this.
And we use this scheme because

1096
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:15,800
it goes through all of these
parts and it has to be really

1097
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,520
rigid.
I see that, I see that

1098
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,400
personally as a negative.
And when we talked about that on

1099
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,640
TikTok, we said it's becoming,
you know, teachers clap free

1100
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,360
times, do this, do that, jump
through hoops.

1101
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,960
Everything has to look the same.
And our point was that, you

1102
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,200
know, as teachers, we have to be
designers in some respect.

1103
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,960
We have, we have to be able to
be trusted, having done training

1104
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,880
on how to different pedagogical
techniques and how to deliver a

1105
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,840
curriculum and how to inspire
children.

1106
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,880
We have to be able to have some
freedom to do stuff differently

1107
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,680
that we as professional, you
know, think, see fit to get the

1108
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,040
outcomes.
And and yeah, and some, I

1109
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,080
remember someone commented on
that TikTok saying like this is

1110
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,400
such a bad take, Like this is
just a personal opinion.

1111
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,000
Kids learn better through direct
instruction and through

1112
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,680
retrieval practise for it
looking the same.

1113
00:43:57,920 --> 00:43:59,680
And lesson should be consistent
because it's better for

1114
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,800
learners.
And you should have dual coding

1115
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,320
on every side because it's
better for learners.

1116
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,120
And, and I guess that that's
what prompted me to have a bit

1117
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,960
of, you know, I, I still think
my point stands, but you know,

1118
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:14,080
OK, dual coding, for example,
having a small picture next to

1119
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,320
something to, you know, have a
visual cue for a child.

1120
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,520
It's obviously always better to
have that, right?

1121
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,320
It's it's clearly always better
to have some dual coding.

1122
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,640
But should you then have to do
it every single time ever

1123
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:31,560
because it's it is just better?
Or is it OK sometimes to not

1124
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,160
have?
It Yeah, I think the best option

1125
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:37,560
is always the perfect middle
ground between not stifling a

1126
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,520
teacher's unique creativity and
style in the classroom by not

1127
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,480
having too much of these like
strict rules in place, but also

1128
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:49,040
providing really good training
to staff to say, hey, this is

1129
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:50,320
dual cloning.
But you know, you're all

1130
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,720
professionals and intelligent
and, and are qualified and are

1131
00:44:52,720 --> 00:44:55,720
literally working this job.
Here is a really interesting bit

1132
00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:57,800
of pedagogy that you might want
to use in your classrooms.

1133
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,360
This is how you can use it.
I would like to see it being

1134
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:04,200
used in some capacity, like
there's just such and there's a

1135
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,040
better middle ground rather than
cool.

1136
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,800
So now every lesson for every
word, regardless of whether you

1137
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:10,960
think it's more impactful or
less impactful in this every

1138
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,640
bespoke situation, you have to
use it now and you'll be graded

1139
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:15,360
equally based on that.
And if I don't see it in this

1140
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,760
art lesson and I do see it in
history lesson, then that's

1141
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:19,800
terrible.
But what you know what, just

1142
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,360
give them a bit of freedom.
You've taught them what your

1143
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,640
coding is.
Let the professional now decide

1144
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,440
where to use that pedagogy.
That's the way I see it.

1145
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,520
I'm, I don't, I don't see it
with the same of working walls.

1146
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:30,800
I don't have a problem with
people using working well, I've

1147
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,880
ever said that.
I've always been quite steadfast

1148
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,200
in that.
I just don't personally like

1149
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,400
using them in the same way I
don't personally like using

1150
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,040
certain displays that they did
because I, because I, they just

1151
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,360
don't fit my style.
I end up neglecting them.

1152
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,480
And ironically, they're even
less impactful because now I've

1153
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,640
wasted the display because I'm
not even using it properly.

1154
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,000
So it's like, there's no point
in pretending that I'm going to

1155
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,200
use it.
Let's just accept that my style

1156
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,480
is a bit different and I'll do
something else there that is

1157
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,960
impactful in my own way.
And I think the best schools

1158
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:58,800
just look at that and go, cool.
Every teacher is different.

1159
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,320
I'm going to empower you all
with a bunch of pedagogies.

1160
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,360
We're not going to make some top
down blanket rule like where we

1161
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,320
have 19 layers of it to make
sure that now that none of you,

1162
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,320
you're all completely
prescriptive teachers now and

1163
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,880
all creativity from you
individually has been stripped

1164
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:13,840
in terms of creating the lesson
because this person.

1165
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:15,440
Was like, well, you can still
deliver it in a different way.

1166
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,520
You can still, you can still
have your action and wait.

1167
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:18,560
I'm like, yeah, of course you
can.

1168
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,320
But but you know what?
I don't want to do that talk

1169
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,120
task at this point.
Yeah, because I just don't think

1170
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:23,240
it's that important.
I think they're wrong.

1171
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:24,760
I think they're wrong.
You can't deliver it in

1172
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:25,960
different ways.
You can't deliver it in

1173
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:27,800
different ways if the lesson is
being prescriptive.

1174
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,640
So like in in such small steps
where it's like, well, I've

1175
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,640
obviously got to deliver the
this exact way.

1176
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,800
Now if they're saying you can
say the words in your own way,

1177
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:37,800
like, come on.
Yeah, that's not really what

1178
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,000
embodies like delivering a
teaching in a different way, is

1179
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:41,440
it?
Like, oh, you could, you might

1180
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,600
word that in a different way.
See, of course I might word in a

1181
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,520
different sentence, but that's
not the point, is it?

1182
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:47,120
Yeah, someone off the street
would like.

1183
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,000
What do you think?
I've been trained in yeah, yeah,

1184
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,000
of course I've been trained in
how to look at a curriculum and

1185
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,840
deliver an objective in a way
that fits the most learned as

1186
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,360
possible.
It it physically can't be that

1187
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:58,800
way.
And, and when we've been on

1188
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,240
training, like we've been on
training, for example, White

1189
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:04,480
Rose mask, White Rose mask, it's
such a bad time sometimes online

1190
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:05,920
because people will go, I hate
it.

1191
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,120
It's so prescriptive and and it
doesn't fit everyone.

1192
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,440
And I'm just like, why on earth
are you giving all of the White

1193
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,200
Rose resources for each small
step to every crowd in your

1194
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,200
classroom?
Yeah, of course you shouldn't do

1195
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,200
that.
It's it's it's a it's like a

1196
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,080
bank where you have your like
your flow, but you can change

1197
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:22,520
the flow.
What did the White Rose training

1198
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:23,560
tell you?
The White Rose training.

1199
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,040
Literally said it would be.
Bad practise to just print these

1200
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:27,200
sheets off and give it to every
child.

1201
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,320
So like what I'm saying say like
when people get annoyed at stuff

1202
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,440
like that as as bad or
prescriptive or boring, it's

1203
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,480
sometimes because they're not
using it properly as well.

1204
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,240
And we've said a million times
we are big advocates for schemes

1205
00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:40,960
because they can reduce workload
massively, but it has to come

1206
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,840
alongside professional autonomy.
And if you have a scheme and

1207
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,640
it's like, no, no, you have to
use this scheme completely as it

1208
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:50,360
comes perfectly every single
thing, then it becomes bad

1209
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,280
again.
Like it's it's two separate

1210
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,520
reasons why it's bad without a
scheme.

1211
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,360
It's just huge workload that
isn't necessary because things

1212
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:59,600
have been created.
Inconsistency exactly.

1213
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:01,480
Being consistent when
necessarily got the curriculum

1214
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,000
with a scheme but with pure
fidelity and you can't change

1215
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:05,400
everything.
It's also obviously awful

1216
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,680
because you're a trained teacher
and every single bit of the

1217
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,520
fibre of your being says that.
Obviously that's not good if

1218
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,720
every single child in the whole
country gets the exact same

1219
00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:14,760
slides ever.
That's be middle ground of

1220
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:16,840
here's here's something that's
massively reducing your

1221
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,160
workload.
Here's loads of loads of ideas.

1222
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,080
Like you said, here's some
really quality training to make

1223
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,600
you a better teacher alongside
these amazing resources which

1224
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:25,400
has been mapped out to the
curriculum really well that you

1225
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,080
can go in and check.
Here you go.

1226
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:30,200
Instead, spend 20 minutes
tweaking it.

1227
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:32,560
And that is the perfect middle
ground.

1228
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,840
And it's again, it's just a lot
of people go one way or the

1229
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:36,960
other.
You said schemes were bad

1230
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,000
because of this.
No, no, no, no, no.

1231
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:39,520
Oh, yeah, we.
Do.

1232
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,840
You think teachers should just
make everything from scratch?

1233
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:44,240
No, no, just.
I'm saying you shouldn't have.

1234
00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:46,200
To dual code, this is every
single.

1235
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:47,360
Word.
We do eventually.

1236
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,360
I think there's a fine line
between.

1237
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,720
And there's a huge difference
between these things, between

1238
00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:54,480
empowering teachers and
micromanaging them.

1239
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:56,760
Exactly.
Genuinely like it's a such a

1240
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:58,880
subtle difference.
You might not even notice it

1241
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,640
straight away in a school.
And it's tough for leaders.

1242
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,200
It's extremely.
It's a very that is like.

1243
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,200
When we talked about leadership
skills in a previous episode and

1244
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,000
we were like what?
Like what's the best management,

1245
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,440
like leadership skill that
probably is up there in terms of

1246
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,640
the ability to empower people.
Yeah, not micromanage them.

1247
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,480
That's a really hard thing to do
because you want to take

1248
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:15,720
control.
Everyone wants to take control.

1249
00:49:15,720 --> 00:49:17,080
You're a leader.
And if you want to control it,

1250
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:19,040
if you give that autonomy, there
are going to.

1251
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:20,280
Be some teachers who just don't
like.

1252
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:21,880
For example, let's go back to
dual coding.

1253
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,440
There'll be some teachers who
did training and never do dual

1254
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,640
coding ever.
And if you like as a leader are

1255
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:27,960
like, come on, it's just better
though.

1256
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,280
And this is kind of what I mean.
Like this is basically what I'm

1257
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:31,800
saying now.
It's like, OK, dual coding is

1258
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,360
just better.
And I'd say, OK, maybe I don't

1259
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,560
care if people use it every
single time ever, but some

1260
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:40,200
people aren't doing it at all.
So guys, you just have to do

1261
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:41,840
that, please.
And that person says, well, I

1262
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,000
just don't see the point.
It's fine.

1263
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:44,640
I'll just explain what it is
like.

1264
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,160
I don't need to dual code.
I personally, as a teacher, just

1265
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,840
don't do it very well.
It's like someone, someone says,

1266
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:51,600
I don't do the washing at home.
I can't possibly work the

1267
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:53,800
dishwasher.
It's like, well, you can, you

1268
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,840
just don't want to.
And the same with dual coding,

1269
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:57,800
like, OK, you, you could just
put a picture next to it though,

1270
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,600
But you're saying it's your,
it's my operational autonomy.

1271
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,160
I don't like using pictures.
It's like, OK, well, that does.

1272
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,760
My point coming full circle is
there are some things where it's

1273
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,120
just like you can be just
dictated to do something because

1274
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,280
it is just better.
And I think I don't necessarily

1275
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:14,680
think working horse comes under
that.

1276
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:16,840
I'm, I'm actually with you.
I'm playing devil's advocate

1277
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,600
slightly over this conversation,
but I do think there are just

1278
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,680
some things where a teacher
saying, well it's not my style

1279
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:25,680
isn't actually enough of a good
reason to not do something.

1280
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:27,760
So the kind of like summary in
my head now.

1281
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:32,480
How I'm seeing this is very much
a linear scale of is completely

1282
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,280
OK to be 100% prescriptive, as
in like, yeah, you do have to

1283
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,040
talk to the kids.
That's not enough.

1284
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,440
It's not my style to talk.
I prefer to do it just sort of

1285
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:42,160
be in the school.
I like actually teaching from

1286
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:43,160
home.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1287
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,560
It's like, no, that's.
Like you can have that that

1288
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,320
exists, and then there's the
other end of the scale, which is

1289
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,480
like complete autonomy.
It is pure opinion and I think

1290
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,240
everything just fits on there.
And I think like you can have

1291
00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:57,040
discrepancies between working
walls and dual coding.

1292
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,040
Dual coding can be a little bit
closer to the prescriptive side,

1293
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,600
the working walls.
And then they can still both up

1294
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,640
for a debate and there still can
be opinions and teachers can

1295
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:07,640
still have a bit more autonomy
on one of them than the other.

1296
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:09,800
But like, it doesn't have to.
Everything's so black and white,

1297
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:11,360
isn't it?
Or people like everything being

1298
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:12,680
so black and white, ones and
zeros.

1299
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:13,840
And I'm like, it's just not
though.

1300
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,320
And and I think ultimately as.
Well, when you sat there and

1301
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,000
you, you ideologically are
planting these things on how how

1302
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,040
they should be prescriptive or
yeah, a bit of autonomy, but we

1303
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:23,920
need to see a bit of it.
Oh, it'd be nice to see every

1304
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,000
now and then or I don't care if
people, teachers can do it or

1305
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:26,760
not.
Cool.

1306
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:28,680
You've done all that.
Then actually what you have to

1307
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:30,680
do is sit and look at workload
and impact.

1308
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,680
And then you have to not live in
your ideological world.

1309
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:35,520
Don't just be at the top being
like, yeah, yeah, it'd be great

1310
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,120
if every single word is, is, is
dual coded on everything because

1311
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:40,680
it's better for all the kids.
You have to then, OK, cool, I'm

1312
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,560
going to reset now look at what
I've done and I'm going to shift

1313
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:45,600
stuff and it might be moving
away from.

1314
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,200
I have to see it all the time
because that reduces workload.

1315
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,800
Because currently what I've done
in my ideological world is going

1316
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,120
to impact staff 345 hours a week
in their planning.

1317
00:51:54,240 --> 00:51:56,240
So then at that point you have
to go, oh, that'd be great.

1318
00:51:56,240 --> 00:51:57,400
OK, cool.
But you know what?

1319
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,280
I'm not going to ask them to go
through and dual code everything

1320
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:00,920
because that's going to take
hours and hours and hours.

1321
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,680
Let's just do instead of dual
coding everything, which going

1322
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,600
to dual code the main 3 vocab
words from that lesson or a

1323
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,000
working world.
I've told them I have to do

1324
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,400
that.
Not really going to impact

1325
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:11,280
workload too much.
We'll keep that there and we'll

1326
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,320
just say, guys, for a few weeks
instead of working on your

1327
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:14,920
whiteboard, can you just go over
to your working world?

1328
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:16,080
That's not going to impact
workload.

1329
00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:18,640
They can swallow their pride,
OK, They don't like it.

1330
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:19,840
Let's just do it for a month and
see.

1331
00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:22,680
There has to be those
conversations there where you, I

1332
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:24,920
think you should always start
with idealism and the best thing

1333
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,920
for the kids.
And then you have to you have to

1334
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,400
finish off with, OK, but in the
real world, what does this look

1335
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,200
like?
How can I adjust things for my

1336
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:33,400
staff?
Because if they're not happy, if

1337
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:35,440
they're burnt out, the kids are
not going to get anything.

1338
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:36,760
I agree.
It's funny how much you can take

1339
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,000
from like.
The private world, because we've

1340
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,640
had a business now quite a few
years, it's funny how a lot we

1341
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,040
learn a lot of that stuff
through the business world

1342
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:46,240
first, in terms of we were
always like, oh, we should do

1343
00:52:46,240 --> 00:52:48,120
all these things for our
tutoring business, for example.

1344
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,160
We do all these things and there
were so many times we were like,

1345
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,600
yeah, these would be great, but
they would cost us loads of

1346
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:54,680
money.
There's a lot of resource power

1347
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:57,800
and time and money to do them
and it's just not worth doing.

1348
00:52:58,080 --> 00:52:59,640
And it's the same sort of
thinking, isn't it?

1349
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,720
It's like, yeah, your teachers
and, and your literal resources

1350
00:53:02,720 --> 00:53:04,160
and money are all part of your
resources.

1351
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:06,760
And you can't just expend them,
burn them out and be like, all

1352
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:08,400
of these things are better as I
do all of them at once.

1353
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,960
I totally agree.
So there's lots of, it's almost

1354
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,160
as if it's a bit complex and
being a leader is really tricky.

1355
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,200
And, and you know what?
We don't big up leaders enough.

1356
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,040
Apparently, according to people
online, there's some fantastic

1357
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:19,480
leaders around around in this
country.

1358
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:21,880
There's so many amazing schools
that people work at and they're

1359
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,480
totally happy because their
leaders respect them and and

1360
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:26,360
they give them the time of day
and they think of all these

1361
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:28,000
things.
And we love you guys.

1362
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,800
Keep doing your jobs well and
we'd love you even more of you

1363
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:34,960
join our WhatsApp group.
Link down in the nice guys.

1364
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,200
Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you so much for all your

1365
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,440
questions.
And we will be harvesting some

1366
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:42,240
more, but you know what, we have
loads anyway, so we're going to

1367
00:53:42,240 --> 00:53:43,680
work through those next time as
well.

1368
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:45,560
Sounds good.
Hayden, before we leave,

1369
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:47,720
anything you want to say, always
pull your socks up.

1370
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:50,000
Thank you.
Yeah.