Ep 167: Why Teaching Assisstants Are VITAL To Education

0:00 Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Teach Sleep Repeat. My name is Dylan. And my name is. Hayden And in this episode, we're going to give big love out to our teaching assistants, huge part of the school system, the education sector, often overlooked, often undermined, often not given the respect they deserve. So we're going to dive in today, Hayden, into why they are vital, how their roles changed over time, and most importantly, to be honest, how we need them and our children need them. You could even say they matter more than they ever have in all of history. That's how important since. The beginning of time. Since the beginning of time, just. After The Big Bang, probably just. Very important when the first DA yeah was in the classroom compared to now. No, but it is vital, isn't it?

0:43 And it's something we're really passionate about. And I think to begin with, we should just outline why we think they're so, so, so important. Like to me, a teaching assistant does so much undercover almost without being recognised for it. And the biggest thing I think, I always think about my teaching assistants was how much the children loved them and how much they confided in them and how much of a safe space they were for them and just that relationship. It really isn't something that you can quantify very easily, but it's something that when you experience it and see it, you see how much of an impact it has on your class.

1:24 You know how in the past you've talked about how not every kid in the class, you're not going to be the favourite teacher for every child. And obviously like the ego part of us, of course, they all love us the most. They don't. The reality is people, Joe with different people. When you see a child in your class develop that relationship and that bond with a teaching assistant that they're maybe not developing with you because you're different people, Jealousy, jealousy, you think get them out of the classroom. And then I'm on there. I'm up there, you know, in the picket line saying get rid of TATAS out of my classroom. Undermining me. They're like them more. But it but it happens, doesn't it? It happens and I, I can think of examples of my Tasmania in the past where I think I'm so glad that they were a huge part of my classroom because of that particular child or that group of children needed that person because that was their person. Like, and I'm, I'm sure I'm the person for other people. It doesn't matter.

2:13 Like we're here as a collective to meet the needs of all these children. And I don't know what I would do without that person there, without that TA, to have that bond and that support for that child. I think quite often as well, a teaching assistant is one of the most consistent results for a child in a classroom. Think about how often teaching assistants are dragged off to do break duty. Think how often they they'll stay at the class all day, for example, potentially we're talking about old school much more, but if they're supporting a child in particular, they'll follow that child around. I've worked before with teaching assistants who've been working specifically with a child in a classroom and every single lesson of the week, that teaching assistant is with that child and that class. And they developed such a bond even to the point where they're moving up through the school with them. And the teacher obviously has a really important part to play in the learning.

2:57 And I'm not going to undermine the teacher whatsoever. Like, that role is more demanding, that's for sure. But if we're talking about the relationship and the importance to the children in the class, there is absolutely no reason why they can't be seen as equals. And they should be seen as equals in my opinion. Yeah, if the priority, if the goal here is to make sure everyone in the class is included, they all feel welcomed, they're all making progress, they're all learning, they're all getting all of their needs met, there are many, many, many situations where it is essential that you have at least one other adult in that classroom. Like we can't just pretend that that's not true because, Oh yeah, because the teachers more trained and they, they are more trained. And like we said, we're not undermining the teacher, but we just can't pretend that there's not situations where a teacher cannot cope and handle all 32 children where you've got several different needs.

3:41 And some of those needs really require, in all honesty, 1 to one or at least small group intervention and support consistently all the time. And you just can't provide that always as a teacher. So having that TA in the classroom is a game changer for keeping all of the children included, all of the children feeling like they're making progress. And then that needs are being met. We need them. I just bloody love them. And we're talking a lot from the the kids perspective, but also from the teachers perspective. Yeah. Like, for example, I'll tell you, I'll be really honest now, I really struggle with the deployment of other adults in the classroom. Like, I struggle with that as a skill myself because as a teacher, it is my job to manage the classroom. And if I have that adult support, which I strive for and want as much as possible, I did sometimes think to myself, am I, am I deploying this teaching assistant in the best possible way? But that's a problem for me because at the end of the day, the kids will benefit from having an extra pair and in the classroom.

4:28 And I do think if we look at the makeup of education at the minute and let's say the cross section of children who are teaching, yeah, there are more needs than ever. And it is just for me highlighting how vital extra hands in the classroom is. And I don't mean this in a doratory way. We'll talk about the role of ATM in a second. I don't just mean, oh, someone to do a cutting up for me or doing some, you know, nice displays in the corner and things like that. I'm talking about just an extra pair of hands and an extra brain and an extra heart, An extra person just to share the load of providing a whole classroom of children with what they need. They are just. Vital and you're talking about rising SEND, you really, aren't you, that we're talking about the rise of SEND diagnosis and and the number of children of SEND in mainstream schools particularly.

5:16 I think we're imagining mainstream schools and mainstream teaching assistance right now. And it's true. We like like I was just saying we can't, we can't cope as teachers with this change and just pretend like there's not going to be any difference. We can't just look at point A, which is 20 years ago, and point B and say, Oh yeah, there's been all this change, so we don't need to do anything about it. Well, of course you do. Of course we need extra help now then. And the sad thing is the change that seems to be happening is that support is being dwindled. It seems like supports going down and down. And, you know, we'll talk about this later on, but the whole adage of, like, looking back in time and how teaching assistants weren't as much the thing, yeah, we'll talk about why that's a nonsense. But the point is just because it's increased over time, it doesn't necessarily mean that right now we are meeting the needs of everyone and where we should be.

6:01 It doesn't necessarily mean that we should be stripping it back. And it's OK. If anything, I think classrooms need more support than ever. Yeah, definitely. And I think I want to move on conversation a little bit now because there's a few gripes that we hear because we speak to a lot. We get a lot of TA is listening. So thank you for listening. If you're a teaching assistant, thank you for listening in general, but a lot of teaching assistants will have gripes, not only with things like pay, which we'll talk about a bit later, but also the, the change in that role. There's a lot of teaching assistants have been doing it for a long time. I, I've actually, I know you have as well. We've worked with teaching assistants that have been doing the job and working in education longer than us, like twice longer. Than we've been alive longer than we've been alive. Yeah, genuinely. Yeah, I can think. I can think of one person. Right now. Oh, we just annoy them. Oh, really? I wasn't alive then. I wasn't born then, actually. I wonder if you were TA when I was in school. Classic those.

6:44 Click around the ear. But I just want to acknowledge it for a minute because they often say to us, the role has changed so much. And I think we can, you know, we often talk about how the role of teachers have changed so much, but let's just acknowledge it. So like going back in time then what, what would you say defined the role of a teaching assistant, let's say maybe in the 80s or 90s, like when we were at school that, that, you know, 20-30 years ago, what would you say ATA did? What was the role? Well, this isn't just us saying it again, this, this is, yeah, OK, we were in school right then and we experienced it. But this is also, I was literally talking to people who've done it. And importantly to make this point before we go into it, this is very much still what people of an older generation who don't work in a school see the role of teaching assistant as. And this feeds into why it's so undermined and so brushed aside is like, well, it's just a kushty job, isn't it? No, let me tell you now how much it's changed. So initially we think about teaching assistant. You might think about someone, like I said earlier, an extra pair of hands.

7:37 And what I mean by that is literally an extra pair of hands. Someone to move, some photocopying for me, someone to trim some sheets, someone to put up a display, someone to do some menial tasks in the classroom. An assistant role, teaching assistant was probably a really good title for what they were doing back then. They were assisting the teacher, right? They were just doing menial tasks, getting on with things, doing some photocopying, maybe doing some displays, doing some admin jobs, just helping out in that respect. Maybe sitting nice and quietly, giving a little SH if someone was talking when the teacher was doing their input. Then when maybe they were doing their tasks, they were just maybe working around the room or sat with once one group and just being a sound board for them to go off. Not very proactive necessarily, but providing a role of assisting the teacher in the classroom.

8:18 Very much just do as you're told, crack on low level job. The kind of thing that did used to suit parents who wanted a job in time time while their child was in school. They could drop them off, do the job, pick them up and kind of leave it there, right? That's what we used used to think often quite informal, you know, kind of and that and that kind of I think that perspective of a teaching assistant has stayed, but I think the reality of how the role has. Changed is just incomparable. So maybe you could just outline, you know, why is it not that anymore what's happening? Sure. And I just want to say one thing on what you're what you were saying as well. You were very much describing what the expectations of that role were because I'm I know and I know you know this as well.

9:01 I'm sure you meant this, that back then the Tasmania were obviously still helping children when they needed to, they were still working with, they were still doing bespoke things with their teachers in all sorts of different situations. But the expectation and understanding of that role is very much what you just said. And people got that job knowing that this was the expectation. If they went above and beyond, that was great, but they were, they'd be comfortable doing that role. Whereas now even though the public perception is still that and often the perception even sometimes from newly qualified teachers or even from Tasmania themselves going into the job, they think, oh, maybe this is what it was. It's not the expectation on average. Now there might be some schools still clinging on to this, but it for everyone we've heard from, it's not like that at all. So Tasmania are now expected to run interventions and interventions are extremely necessary, important progression lessons that children who have needs require to make the adequate progress in school, like really essential things. Not even children with needs.

9:55 An intervention is put in place when there's a gap in knowledge. It's teaching. They are teaching. Exactly, right. On top of that, think about SEND the rising, you know, rise of SEND that TAS are quite often expected to be working either one to one or in groups with children with high needs or working on EHCP plans. For children who've actually got an EHCP plan, they might get a one to one TA or again or we put in a group. But, but just so let's expand on that for a second, because it's not even just like they're expected just to work 1:00 to 1:00 with the children or, or often I'm a one to one TA for three children. It's not one to one anymore, is it? Trying to cut in corners there. But also they're expected to deliver the needs of the HCPA really important document, which often they're not involved in the putting together of the document. This is something I want people to know.

10:36 And they'll be maybe like an SLT or the teacher and a parent in a meeting who just say, oh, yeah, the teaching assistant can do this 15 minutes a day working on their fizzy. You know, they're doing they yeah, they can do that. That's fine. And then you learn later on as the teaching assistant, oh, I'm doing that as well. Am I? Oh, I'm supporting this child one to one. Yeah. You are supporting the 1:00 to 1:00. But also you're the TA for the class. But no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, that's insane. And that happens all of the time. So common, all of that. That one is probably one of the most common things I've ever seen. I'm a one to one TA, but there's always a but, but you need to help the class. So if the teacher needs something or this needs to happen, or that kid or that factory, can you work with that group? We'll put your one to one in that group and then you work with that group so we can cheat around the system. So it's not really what you're employed for. The biggest one and the one I imagine TA is listening, thinking, Oh my God, please say it is planning, teaching, marking, doing a, you know, doing the role of what we'd consider normally with what a teacher would do, which I think back in the day would be like, well, no, of course you don't do that. The teacher does the planning, the teaching, the marking, and the teaching assistant assists the teacher. Or we get cover in when a teacher is sick. We get an external source to bring as a cover teacher. We get someone who's a supply teacher out of an agency to come in and cover stuff.

11:42 Newsflash if you're not working in a school it doesn't happen anymore. If someones ill or can't make a lesson or has a meeting, it's a teaching assistant who's asked to cover, often for a pittance and often then sure. The actual planning itself quite often is provided by the school or the teacher who's leaving it right. Sometimes it's not though. If we're talking about interventions earlier, a lot of Tasmania are expected to put interventions together to deliver them. And then when they're covering, the thing I never, ever, ever agreed with or understood was when if a teaching assistant is asked to cover a lesson, sure, they get an extra pound an hour, nothing, right, for the act of teaching then, then, then expected to mark the work. And it's like, OK, well, at least in a teacher, it's just contract.

12:24 I understand that there is some built in that I have to do some extra work outside a directed time. If you're a teaching assistant on a contract that's pro rata and basically nothing, an unbelievably low wage, let's be real. And then you'll just say, oh, by the way, you've got to mark them. What? When I'm finished? What? Yeah, when you've clocked out. You finished what? You know, when you got paid extra for delivering the lesson, right. Not for marking then and they were just expected to do work outside of their hours. And I am here to say to people and teaching assistants out there, that is ludicrous. I was constantly telling my teaching assistants to go home and get out of the building. Oh, but it needs to be marked. Don't care. I'll take the rap. If someone has is that annoyed that it's not marked, it me, it's my fault. I'll mark that for you. Sometimes they didn't, but I'll mark that for you.

13:05 That's all, thank you. I can go home now and plan tomorrow's lesson because I'm covering again. All day. It's insane. It's insane. It's just. And then people would say brazenly online, they'll say brazenly teaching assistants don't have to plan. Teaching assistants never had to do that when I was in school. As if that means it doesn't happen. Yeah. How much more than I've worked in a school for 10 years and experienced it and seen it first hand and have hundreds of people message us to say this is what's happening? How much of that do I need to put in front of you to realise that you are wrong and what you're thinking is not true? And that just because something used to be a certain way or just because currently in one environment it doesn't happen, it does not mean that this isn't a widespread problem. It's a huge issue. OK, here's another one then that people often throwback and I, I feel like I've got an answer, but I want you to go off the Dome. People often say surely this is better though in terms of the impact it's having on children.

13:52 Teaching assistants becoming more professionalised and getting involved more with the learning and impacts and progress of children. That's better, right? ABS of course it is, it's fantastic. It wouldn't it be great as well if I just did 54 lessons every week? Wouldn't it be fantastic? We opened the Saturday school and opened up this extra thing for the children to do the weekend and there's some extra enrichment. Wouldn't it be fantastic? We went away in a residential every week. Cool money, people's livelihoods. And the the thing that winds me up the most is here again, we've talked a lot about teachers and how we need to push back. But I do understand that there is some extra stuff we have to do. The people we should not be taking advantage of at all in this situation are one of the lowest paid members of the school, have the highest impact on the children and that we just eek and eek and eek more out of.

14:35 And when I say about, you know, amazing people being guilt tripped into doing extra, I see it the most for teaching assistants. So, Oh yeah, come on, come on. Don't want to help the kids out, Don't want to stay a bit longer, Don't want to do this. Of course they want to do it. Of course they have some intrinsic ability that is amazing most of the time, and they're well overqualified for the job. Of course, they have all of this and they can deliver amazing lessons and they can make really good progress with the kids. That doesn't mean that they should do it and not be provided with the monetary outcomes for it. What are we doing? Like, it's not me saying you can't do it. It's me saying you shouldn't do it because they're taking advantage of you. Capitalism, baby. Profit and yield. You know what?

15:16 Can I say got me that profit and yield? What can I say? That's the sad thing because the thing that gets cut first is the teaching assistants. And, and this sounds horrible to say, but I've said it before and I'll say it again because it's true. You're not even saving that much, you know, because they're on such low money anyway. It's just a low hanging fruit. Let's just get rid of them and, and ultimately it comes back to the school staff who are on the front line delivering to the kids, right? One the teaching assistants lost their job 2. The teacher is spread even more thinly and can't possibly provide the kids with. What they need, no one wins. And you know what happens when that the kids don't get it? Yeah, absolutely. That's that's it, isn't it? The kids don't win. It's unbelievable. So think just sticking in the past for a minute before we move on then. So what do we say to those people that do say, you know, let's say someone grew up in the 60s, seventies, a long, long time ago, and they go, I didn't, we didn't have Tasmania back in my day. We didn't have Tasmania.

16:01 We didn't need them. Yeah. Didn't need them because when you were annoying, the teacher used to throw a board rubber at your head. They used to hit you with a cane. Yeah, there were other ways of controlling classes and behaviours etcetera and making sure people behave themselves. The attitude towards school. Was different. Well, we didn't have a, we didn't have Sen. Yeah, I'm sure he didn't. Isn't it? What are you talking about? Just because you didn't notice something was real? We didn't. We didn't discover Pluto until a couple 100 years ago. Was it not there until then? Are you talking absolute rubbish? We didn't have seatbugs back in our day. Course we all did not have them anymore then. It's such a ridiculous argument. It is just mad to say that just because at one point in history something didn't exist, then it's fine forever. What on earth are you talking about?

16:42 Of course you are so idiotic to say something. It just doesn't make sense. I. Really like the Pluto example that is that it is like you know when someone someone says something you think that's in the bank now forever. Like that will be the analogy I give now whenever anyone says something like that. Pluto didn't exist. It didn't exist. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely nonsense. And ultimately, like you've basically said it, but I'm going to make it really clear, the children that were fine weren't, they weren't fine. You just didn't know it or you ignored it or they just got treated differently and it ruined their lives. Like, do you know what I mean? Is like, you can't you, we can't just pretend those things didn't exist. That wasn't better. That wasn't better. OK. Not having ATA and ostracising children was not a better outcome than having Tasmania and have a bit of inclusion.

17:24 Like I'd rather not go back to that. Yeah, if I'm honest, and just because we got to a point where there are more Tasmania than ever in school, right? Yeah, like literally it's like 4 times as much, I think from like the 80s or the 90s. That doesn't, it doesn't mean that we can then use the old school as the barometer now so we can have half of it, can't we? I mean, we could, but it would be worse. There's a reason we built up so many is because it was better for the kids. And if we take a step back, it doesn't mean it's acceptable, right? It means it is worse. We can't have this trajectory. To me there's like this and it's very crude. I've I've oversimplified this, I know, but like imagine over time it's like yeah, we've got loads more Tasmania now, so now we can have way more inclusion in schools. That's great. Let's get as many children in mainstream schools as possible. So because we can help them, we can support them now. Now let's RIP away all the support. Good luck.

18:08 No, no. So what are you talking about? You've. Oversimplified it, but it's It's true though the crux of what's happening right now. Inclusion is a myth when it's not paired with adequate funding and resources for them. And we were kind of there. It was still outstripping it. There still wasn't enough support. Yeah, we increased the amount of teaching assistance, but funding was kind of not going to put as much into schools anymore. But it was Meanwhile, boom, inclusion. Yeah, we're going to do inclusion. Oh, don't you like inclusion? You want children to be included in the mainstream? Aren't you a absolute ablest pig? Yeah. And these are the same people that were saying back in my day we didn't have TA's and got on fine, pretending that the children weren't like that. They were included back then. Yeah, it's like you can't have both. Yeah, they weren't included then and you didn't have TA's. No, we had inclusion.

18:49 We included the back of the class with a dunce cap. Included him. Yeah. No, no. Yeah, searches for a board, Rubber's head, and he got sent out every single day and no one ever addressed the issue. I don't know where he is now. Yeah, of course you don't, because nothing happened that has ruined his life. Yeah, yeah. It's just, it's just so simplistically stupid. And when someone who's not been involved in schools right now doesn't see it happen, says how something is I've. I've lost all respect for that person. Yeah, that's not what it's like. Sorry. Who the fuck are you to tell? Like what you sorry. Have you been? You've not oh, you've not. Oh, you've not been in the school since 1989 when you left. Yeah. Oh, sorry. I will listen to what you've got to say about in the state of the school system right now. Shut up. Shut up. Yeah, I agree. But you know what? Maybe a legitimate point here and a bit more serious. Sometimes people do criticise us for maybe over hyping purely the good side and, and, and giving off this illusion that maybe every single teacher, every single TA, every single person that works in the school is absolutely amazing, effective at that job and they didn't need any support. Leave us alone because we all know what we're doing. And I feel like we should address that and talk about Tasmania in this example.

19:53 Is every teacher teaching assistant as amazing as we are alluding to here? Or is there still a space to say, do you know what though? At the end of the day, you can also still have a bad TA. You can also still have a bad teacher. Like, should we have that conversation? I love how you chose to teach an assistant chat to bring this respect. Like introspective look but are all teachers? Is we're teachers, but are all teaching assistants? You notice I said teachers as well because I realised I don't want to make it sound like I'm just people in their jobs in general, right? But it's a point though isn't we should make. Yeah, okay, sure, we can make that point, but I don't really see the benefit of that. Like I, I've never said, I've never said those things you're talking about. I've never said every single teacher and every single teacher assistant is amazing all the time in what they do. Yeah, I'm talking about generic like. People listen, they always, they always, I see it all the time. They're always like, Oh yeah.

20:36 Well, I've I've had the I had this TA that wasn't very good this one time. Sure, sure. Brilliant. Do you know what, I'm going to be perfectly honest, in my career I've had loads of Tasmania and they're not all equally as good. No, they're not all equally the same. I've worked with some absolutely top tier, unbelievable teaching assistants. I've worked with some very, very good teaching assistants. I've worked with some good teaching assistants. I've worked with some teaching assistants where actually I felt like it didn't really help me that much in the classroom because of very with much various different reasons. And there's things we can go into. I don't find it helpful to do that. Like we can talk about it. Like we can say, sure, there are some teaching assistants who very much I think go into the role and think, oh, it is just a cushy job. I will just do the bare minimum of what I need to get by and then I'll leave the classroom and that's all good and I don't care if I'm not.

21:22 But you know what? Don't care but you're. Not getting paid enough to to to plough your whole life career into this. That that's my point is like, OK, but I'm not actually going to go after them because they're not. They're not remotely put on this pedestal. So why am I judging them against the bar of maybe what I'd say of a teacher? I've I've cringed before when teachers have said things like my ITA just leaves when it's their time to go. I'm like. Yeah, yeah, doesn't help me tidy up or Marks and books. Yeah, that's not a them problem mate. That's that's a teacher problem. We can talk about that. We can talk about how as teachers we're expected to do all this because we've got that way clause in our contract. We go above and beyond. It's extra. We're in that pedestal, right? We are in that pedestal. We do get paid more, right? So we can talk about that. It's a discussion.

22:02 Never in my life will I ever expect the teaching assistant to go above and beyond in that way because they're not adequately given money for it. Good. It's as simple as that. So, you know, maybe you can go into more detail here, Like, yeah. OK. Do you want me to say on on camera, on record, not all teaching assistants are effective. OK, I've got. I've just said. It there you go, clipped it. Yeah, that's all the matter. No, I didn't. You know what? I wanted you. You got you got to exactly where I wanted to get to. Because what I wanted, I wanted to acknowledge the fact that not everyone's great at their jobs. OK, fine. We've done that bit. Now people can stop saying that. We just glazed everybody and we just oh, yeah, everyone's so great. OK, Some people can't do their jobs great in every aspect ever of every job, but we're teaching assistants. What I really wanted to get to is the systemic failure here of we've expected this massive rise in professionalism. The bar has risen for them hugely. We've just not paid them anymore. That's the thing I really wanted to get to. We're just undermining these people and setting this crazy bar and going, yeah, well, just get on with it. Oh, that teaching assistant wasn't very good. Yeah, because they're being paid 4 P an hour. What do you mean?

23:02 By what standard are they not very good? Yeah, like, come on. Yeah, yeah, it just drives me crazy. I've had this before, genuinely, and maybe other people have experienced this where I've been into Tesco, right? And what my point, the reason I'm talking about Tesco and retail is there are many teaching assistants I know have thought to themselves, it's, you know, I'm just going to go into retail. I literally get paid more. I literally get paid more to go into retail and sit on a conveyor belt and scan items, right? I'm not detrimenting that job. It's an important job. I always say this because I know people text about context, the whole point of this conversation. What I'm saying is though, the expectations of teaching assistants now does outstrip what we expect from a retail worker in the. Shop way. Beyond so you can get more pay by having a job that you're not expected to go and beyond as much. In case in point, I've gone to the self checkouts before. I've been scanning my stuff away. Right.

23:49 There's a there's a someone who works and is is on the self checkout. They're having a conversation with their mate who's on the kiosk. Yeah, right. Long conversation, ignoring me. Oh, next person also needs some help. Oh, there's three people now that need help. Suddenly inside, I feel myself going for God's. Come on, for God's sake. It's the most simple part of your job. Like just watch what's going on and fix it. Please. Come on. I've got to wait around now. But you know what happens after that? I go, yeah, why should they care? Yeah, why should they care? So this attitude of like, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't if I were them. I used to work in retail. They can wait for a second. I was it not the best customer service in the world? No. Do you want me to say that to everyone right now? You're not amazing at your job. Fine. You're amazing at job. They probably don't care. They have a chat with their mate and they're getting paid a pittance.

24:29 I allow that when it comes to other jobs. But when it comes to teaching assistants, people really do the same way they do as teachers. Like, well, you're working with the kids. It's the most important thing in the world. Isn't it good that we're adding more professionalism? Isn't it great that you get to teach the kids? Isn't it fantastic that you're going to mark and and plan and do all this extra stuff for the children? It's for the children, right? No, we need to just have a line and say, what do you expect from them? And the reason I have a Revere teaching assistant so much because so many of them go above and beyond. So many of them are amazing. And instead of focusing on the few who maybe aren't as good, I don't see a point in doing that. What I'm going to do instead is talk about the ones who are unbelievable with the children who go above and beyond to do amazing work at the job and they're being exploited. That's a more interesting conversation to me that I think is more useful.

25:09 Having I agree, I couldn't agree more. And there's and there's one other angle to this that I just want to get and I feel like I've completed this like section of the conversation, which is when it comes like, OK, think about teachers SLT. We really value, I think, training that goes into being able to deliver those roles really well over time and experience. Whereas with teaching assistants, I really feel like even though again as acknowledges the bar has risen, the pay has stayed the same, the expectations are higher than ever. It's a really important job. I feel like training and deployment of teaching assistants is like the weakest area of schools. How how many times have in our career have we realised that the Tasmania haven't been trained on something that we put into place two years ago in in the school for maths or English or something? Oh yeah, we probably probably should have told them about that before we expect them to now run an intervention on it. Yeah.

25:58 Like they're often the bottom of the pile in terms of training despite us having this crazy expectations. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Like what? Do you have anything to say? No, no, that you've hit the noun on the head. I think that's all we can say really genuinely, you're, you've absolutely hit the noun on the head in terms of the expectations arisen so much. But we still for some reason expect more of them than sometimes of the the the teachers. And we said this before about how, you know, when a teacher teaches a lesson, they have the support of teaching assistant. If that teaches out and then the teaching assistant covers the teaching assistant doesn't have a teaching assistant, We're expecting more of them, right. And sure, you know, in a good school when that happens, because this happens in good schools. Don't get me wrong. It's just a reality of education right now in good schools. What happens is the teacher, this is what I always did or the SLT will say to the teaching system, listen, please, please don't worry about getting through this whole lesson. Please don't worry about marking the things at the end. Please don't worry about XYZ.

26:51 Right. And understand that in you taking away their support and them doing your job for which they are less qualified than you, you've lowered the bar. And accepting that there are some places out there that never, ever, ever accept any lowering of the bar whatsoever. And they're the toxic places where we are expecting more and more and more of these people to fill the gap for what they're not trained to do or paid to do. And they're the ones who bear the brunt of it. Because at the end of the day, it's my job to be at that bar. That's why I'm a professional. I'm, I'm trained, I'm paid for it. I've got the qualifications as a teacher. Yeah, my bar is there and it should be there. I I should be bloody good at what I do when when someone else steps in as a teaching assistant who's paid nothing and doesn't have those qualifications, they're still expected to get to that bar. It's them that is the one that are under pressure. It's them that are covering too much. And it's them that really do not get any benefit whatsoever from saying no, that kids need all this all the time. No, be realistic and look after your staff because it's, it's just unacceptable.

27:50 Yeah. And and going back to the original point and it's then that's not getting the training to do the. The get to get to that bar in the 1st place. My favourite thing, and I know you'll have experiences as well, is when as staff you finish your hour long CPD session whenever it is and the person finishes by saying. And just make sure you have a quick chat of your TA and just tell them this as well so that when they're covering they know what to do as well. Okay, so I, the teacher needed an hour and I can give this now to my TA who will be measured by the same bar in 12 second conversation at the start of next lesson when they cover. Got ya. Cool. That just to me like I'm like there you go. That's summarise it, doesn't it? Yeah, the lowest member, lowest paid member of staff as well. Yeah, all these things. I feel like we should round off this conversation about Tasmania by going to something nice and just talking about the relationships that we can have, like as as teachers and teaching assistants, Because I want to start by saying that I've had some unbelievably nice relationships with my TA.

28:43 And I think back to a quick story of my first ever TA, Mike Brown. If you're listening big up Mike Brown, you're amazing man. But the relationship we had in the class, it was to me when I was a newly qualified teacher, it was another teacher. He was, he had been in schools longer than I am because it was my first year. He had been around, you know, for, for years before that. I learned so much from him about literally how to speak to children, how to manage behaviour, what sort of groupings to put together because he just knew the children better than I did. And I remember I used to write my lesson plans every week, right? He was always gobsmacked by this because I looking back is quite funny because obviously no one else would do this. I'd write out my weekly Lesson plan quite in detail and I'd write a whole section of like where I'd like to deploy him because I was really trying to work on my TA deployment.

29:24 And he was always like, oh, wow, no one's ever done this before. But he loved it and like and respected it And, and we just built up such a, such a genuine nice bond and friendship. And I just think if I didn't have that the, the, it would have been such a significant decline in, in like what I was giving the provision for the children from him not being there. And a lot of that was genuinely down to the fact that we had such a nice relationship. And I'm just wondering if because we've had a few conversations about TAS before and I don't think you, I think I've had more TAS than you have over over my career. Yeah, you've had a lot of situations where you haven't actually had ATA. Yeah, a lot of the time for example, like because TA is, it's not something you get all the time. Maybe I had just learning groups and maths or sets and stuff in the school where that that class just for a reason didn't. Yeah, but I've I've had a lot of. I've had a lot of teaching assistants, I have worked with a lot of teaching assistants and I think there's a, there's a few, there's a few things to say about this. The first one is that they are often the ones that you spend the most time with simply because they're in your classroom.

30:21 If you even if you think about, you know, working in a free or for elementary school, you think, well, I've got a team. Not really like you don't really see them every day. Still like I am stood at the front of the class with my with, with the rest of the children there and my teaching assistant, they who I see all the time. And a big thing for me, again, you're right, the, the relationships you build, you're teaching assistant are special. And I think we really need to put in a pedestal their skill set, right? Because we just talked a lot there about how they're not given the training we're given. They can't do these exact things. It's not acceptable, it's not right. But let's just flip it on its head for a minute because I found a lot of the people in schools with the most emotional intelligence and the most, you know, the highest bar of empathy and ability to bond with the children and ability to make those relationships quickly and have respect of the children. And also by the way, intellectually, in terms of understanding the concepts and being able to actually teach as well, all of those things, I've often found teaching assistants, there's no level where they're all below the teachers. Quite often they're better than some teachers. Yeah, definitely.

31:23 I think that's like you've nailed up my head because I was just thinking, what was it about Mike that I really just loved having the classroom for? It was his ability to understand the emotions of the kids. He was such a good emotional support. And I think about other TAS, right? I think about just strengths which could pick some people up. We think about Angie, another amazing TA that we both shared, and she was just a godsend for us early in our career. But her, like, think about, she had lots of skill sets, but one of the things that comes to mind is her impeccable behaviour management. Yeah, she was. It was incredible how she managed to sneak around the classroom like a ninja and keep the children focused on track and just, like, manage their behaviour in a nice way where they respected her. It was incredible. And then I think, you know, more recently, I, I had ATA called Georgia and she we just the, the dynamics that we had in the classroom, I often feel like that's something that doesn't get spoken about.

32:08 The dynamics that me and Georgia had as teacher in TA brought like some life to the class and the children loved it. And they felt that they could be a part of that little community that we'd made. Like we were just like a little family. And we had, yeah, we had the banter, we had the silly times. But then when it came down to being professional and getting on with things, it was there and they respected it for us. They respected both of us equally. We were just a Group, A unit and I just feel like none of, I couldn't have had any of these things if I didn't have that TA in the classroom. So I, I couldn't be more of an advocate for teaching assistants. And, and it really does sad to me. And I'm, I think this hopefully comes across in the podcast because we talk about it a lot, but I could not be more sad at the idea that TAS are feeling like pushed out of the job. We're just, they're just declining in numbers in general. Their pay is not going up.

32:49 Their working conditions are just getting worse. All of these things, it's so dire, not only for me from that from that personal perspective and those relationships I build, but ultimately, like you said, it trickles down to the kids. The kids are missing out on. Imagine they didn't have the Mike Brown, the Angie, the Georgia, they, they would miss out so much emotional support, behaviour support, learning support, community, everything. Like, yeah, I just couldn't have it without them. Completely. A new list of names makes me just think of all the teaching assistants I've had because, again, they're the first people that come to my mind as a teacher. There's a reason for that, because they're vital, they're so important, and they're who are with you most of the time. I think of Lisa Regan, Angie Mullen. Yeah. Yeah. Laura Drummond, Jackie Daly. Jackie Daly.

33:29 I'm going to miss people. I'm going to miss people out here. But the point is that there are just so many, many different people who stick in my brain as people I really, really respect and really, really admire and who I have physically seen in the classroom make a difference with those kids. And that sticks with you when you notice that. And one thing I will say just to kind of round this off, I really do genuinely feel like when you work with someone else in your room who you really click with, who's really, really on the same page as you as a teaching assistant, I think that you are more than the sum of your parts. I do think that you've got your skills as a teacher, they've got their skills as a teaching assistant. But then when you work together and really go as a team, it's not just the combined efforts of you both.

34:12 It's more than that. Like you said, you curate this idea of that the children go to whoever they want to in the classroom, this idea of there are two adults to help you. You're a you're, you're a community, like you said, and you can really foster that. And it's it is harder to foster that without another pair of hands or another person also just to sometimes look at and go and you see that as well. Did you see that? And they're like, yeah, I saw that. You're like, I'm not going mental, OK? I'm going to carry on the crack. On and you have that little smile that you share that awkward little laugh you say shut up kids I'm. Trying to talk to the teaching assistant. I've had enough. I've had enough for you lot. Yeah. And they're, they're patting you on the back. Yeah, exactly. Getting your social support for. US. Yeah, Ready to be. Fired. Yeah. Because you're winning.

34:53 You've just lost it. Yeah. Oh, I just love them. And yeah, I'll always be a huge advocate for them because there are some things you can't measure. I can imagine being a sat in that trust meeting up there. Well, the numbers aren't adding up. We've got to be cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. You can't measure what we've just talked about a lot of it. And it's vital. It's vital to our kids. And yeah, the the more we get rid of them, the less our children will get. And we'll see it through other metrics. You know, there might be a teaching assistant out there and then, well, there is a teaching assistant out there who stopped the child getting excluded. Yeah. Just from a relationship and I can think of examples right now. And if we didn't have the teacher assistants, which we won't have if it keeps going as it is, we will see that number increase. And we're like, oh, why?

35:34 What are the teachers doing wrong? What are the schools doing wrong? Well, the attitudes wrong. Maybe it's the systemic cuts that you've got to the most important fundamental parts of education. Maybe it's that. Yeah, it could be. No, we need another decade to work that out. OK. Yeah, frustrating, but out for the love. And if you're a teaching assistant listening to this, we appreciate you massively. And if you're a teacher listening to this or an SLT member, just show them some some some of your love appreciation. Yeah, definitely. And we and we appreciate you 2 OK. Yeah, we'll do enough. Well, we do. We do enough. You've got enough, You've got enough. Geez, stop letting him out in oh. TA's get one episode. Yeah. All right. Yeah. All right. We'll give you next week as well, if you're going to go on about it anyway. Amazing.

36:15 Let's wrap it up there. Cool. Thanks. See ya.