Ep 166: Answering Your Questions: Rigid & Boring Afternoon Lessons, Advice For Student Teachers & Improving Confidence

0:00 Hello everyone, Welcome back to another episode of Teach Sleep Repeat. My name is Dylan, my name's Hayden. I'm back with another question and answer episode. All of these questions are from you, our lovely listeners, Hayden. How can they put a question to us? How can they put a question to us, Dylan? They can join our WhatsApp community. Use the link down below. It's a fantastic place to be. It is, it's lovely, and we send the link out for your anonymous questions. Join us down below. And while you're here, why not like this episode? Or follow us, or do whatever you need to do, leave us a rating. It's just such a nice giving thing, isn't it? Hayden, it's lovely, right? Maybe you should stop talking now and I'll do a question. How about that? Yeah. From our listeners. From Kathy, she said. What memory of an event, practise or activity from your own school days do you wish? We're still around in schools today. We used to do impromptu walks out into the country on sunny days. That's nice.

0:43 Now it has to be pre planned with permissions and risk assessments so invariably gets cancelled due to bad weather. I always felt like when I was teaching in school, when I'd look back at being in primary school, there were way more rules that I had to follow as a teacher. And again, maybe the teachers back then had all these rules and regulations and things, but it certainly does feel like there's way more like hoops to jump through right now and things teachers have to do. And or you can possibly be like it's wasting 5 minutes of learning time. What do you mean the person next door is doing this thing the exact same thing. Chill out. Like my my favourite part about primary school, and I don't know about you, I loved primary school. It was just fun and I loved learning. Was doing projects like just having time in the afternoon, just a deep dive into like the Romans or I did one about planets as well. And currently that seems to only happen in year 6 when the Sats are done.

1:32 It's like, oh, we've done all the important stuff, what can we do for a bit? The very essence of what fun is and learning is. In primary school, I did one about planets, I did one about Romans, did acrostic poems, just got my head in a book about facts and was writing them down and doing fact files. And it wasn't so precious that we had to tick off all of these different assessment things on this on this website that we've gotten access to right now. And oh, it's gold in this, but it's blue in that, and it's purple in this. And, well, it's all it doesn't matter. Chill out. Yeah, it's primary school. I feel like you're going to rinse me for this next statement, understandably. But there's some truth in it, right? But I feel like I had a better time at primary school than any of the kids that I've taught in my career have ever had. Well, you were a teacher. And I, and I know I knew what was coming from that. I don't think that's because of the system. There we go, but there's something to be said about that, right.

2:16 I don't know if you feel the same like on on that meta level, but maybe it's like you said, like the rules and the way things have changed. I maybe it's that, you know, rose tinted glasses, whatever you're looking back and you think, OK, great, My I had a great time. But I, I do think it's true though, because if I think back, I did have those days where it was like we'd, I remember distinctly going out of my school and the teacher was like, right, everyone grab your art books. I was like, what are we doing? We walked out the school, we sat outside drawing trees and things. And then we went down to the beach because we were, I mean, we were very lucky to be failed near a beach, went down to the beach, did some project stuff and then came back and wrote it all up, started making a booklet. And I just remember being literally in my element and I feel like that happened all the time in my head.

2:56 And I don't feel like that happened all the time during my career. Or at least it was really hard to do those things because like you said, you have to evidence so much other stuff. So I don't know, practises I can bring back from my, from the old days, literally being able to just have days where you can just work on projects and it's not at a great cost. Or like you said, it's not because the Sats are over now. Now we can enjoy our learning. Now can we just enjoy learning all the time? Let's bring that back. Can we enjoy learning all the time for the sake of enjoying learning and and discovering a subject rather than for the sake of, you know, league tables and results? And, and even like when you think about, I was sure about league tables and results and things like that. But even currently when we do afternoon lessons, which are nothing to do with the Sats, they do feel incredibly formal a lot of the time.

3:36 Like you've got to have these worksheets where we have to do a retrieval task and then we must do something to do with this. This certain type of worksheet has to be completed every single time when you've got to put something in the books and you've got to match up these things and you've got to explain something and it feels so forced. And I think personally, I, I had a lot more as, as a pupil when I attended primary school in the 90s and the early 2000s, I felt like I had a lot more autonomy just to love and enjoy learning. And I was given opportunities to find things out and just listen to stories and just enjoy the world around me and become inquisitive. Whereas now it feels like everyone really does have to be pencil pencilled or shoe horned in this exact way of learning and this exact way of showing that you understand something. There's a lot of ways of showing you understand something, and it's not necessarily just, oh, we did a lesson last week. We need to do 3 questions now and we need to mark you out of three.

4:27 I'm going to take your score and I'm going to write it down on the assessment paper because apparently that's important for some reason. Who? Gives a who cares? Like who cares genuinely, if you remember 3 out of three or two out of three or one out of three when you're in primary school, I get it. The older you are and you're moving towards maybe your GCSE exams in history or you're going towards your A levels, etcetera, sat there with cue cards, memorising fact. That's all important, right? But if we really think about the the role of these different subjects, for me, when you're a 7 or 8 year old in a primary school, I just want to engage the children. I want to make them love and enjoy learning. I don't want them to think that they're being tested constantly on what they remember for things that genuinely don't matter. I think when you speak to teachers who were teaching when we were kids, they do actually say this sort of stuff, like, and then we were sort of being kind by being like, oh, maybe it was the same then.

5:13 It wasn't. They literally I've had multiple conversations across my career with people who taught when I was a kid who were like, no, no, no. It was just much better and way more easy then to just come in and have my post it note and be like, ah, do you know what? We're going to do a project on the mines this week. Yeah. And it was like, that's just what they did because they had that freedom and it was probably great. Sure, it maybe open the door to bad practise more potentially by not having all those constrictions and rules, but I don't. I had a good time. So yeah. I had a great time and I do think it's just important that we don't forget that like in, in, in this, in as we strive to make sure that there's a certain level of practise that's the lowest possible, Let's not make sure we're capping the top as well. That's all I'd say. Like let's not make sure those extraordinary teachers who inspire people and come up with amazing activities aren't feeling like they're stunted as well.

5:58 We have to just trust the profession a bit more. So that's what I would say. It feels like there was a lot more trust back then. If I was given free rein to do whatever I wanted with my class, my class wouldn't suddenly not learn things. My class would be doing way more interesting stuff in my opinion. It's weird that we stripped the pay of teachers and then stop trusting them as much, isn't it? I don't know if that linked. Anyway, next question. Yeah, go on, this is anonymous. So when looking for a job in primary school, would you choose a job at a school you really love but would be teaching in a year that wasn't your preferred one? Or would you go and teach at a school that you didn't particularly like, but you did have the preferred year group? On the surface this sounds like a tricky question, but when I think about it, it's very obviously the option where I work in a school that I like.

6:42 I thought that as well. Yeah, why? Why did you think? That because that's like that, that affects, I think that affects you holistically. Do you not think working in a different your group does? Like for example, you would put an EYFS in a school you love, or year six in a school you didn't love. Yeah, it's true. It's true that that they're like the extremes, I guess, because for me, like I would rather do Year 6 and sort of downwards from there. I feel like UAFS is the absolute opposite. Yeah. And we, but we are also, I think in this situation, you're probably thinking of the worst score and the best score. So I think it's fair. It's fair to compare the extremes any other way. OK. Let's do that then, yeah. So would I rather work in the worst school, but in year 6, let's say that's my favourite year group. Or is it it's a year 6 or year 4? Yeah, OK. I don't know, but it's certainly upper keys. Let's say year 6, then you're not. Upper keys age Yeah, key stage 2. Let's just say year 6 for the example. Yeah, or the OR the best scope in keys in. Way I think.

7:31 I think I'd pick that just thinking about it. I'm like, I feel like I'd be happier. I could get over the fact that I feel less confident with EYFS, and I know as a teacher, I'm almost definitely just going to enjoy it. Once I get used to it, I think I can get over that hurdle quicker. The reason I don't want to go in EYFS is because I don't feel confident with it. I will do when I've taught it for a year. Do you know what I mean? Like I didn't feel confident about year six. It was scary. And then I went into it and it was fine. The reason you don't want to teach Ayfs is way more timid and mild than the reason you don't want to work in a horrible school. Yeah, well, here is a good example. I've I've left schools before working in year groups, my favourite year groups. I've been in my favourite year group and wanted to leave the school so badly that I left. Yeah, Do you know what I mean? So like, I don't know, I'm just taking off my. Experience that's a really, that's really interesting. I do think as well when teachers, so every teacher out there listening to this will have their preference of year groups that they don't want to teach, right. Yeah.

8:17 But I, I, I, I can only speak personally And the, the most obvious example for me was when I worked in year 3. And this is not even extreme, to be honest with you, but because I've worked in junior schools for my whole career and year 3 is obviously the lowest you can go to. And I always used to think to myself, oh God, not year 3, not year 3. And I've told this story a billion times. I has put in year 3 because I think a lot of teachers in Junior School have that mindset of while the slightly older ones, right, because they're in the Junior School to start with, it kind of makes sense. And I, I said to their teacher, Oh, I don't mind assuming multiple other people would say they don't mind. But it turns out literally everyone was like, oh, not year three got to my, got to my application, let's call it, of saying what I don't mind doing next year.

9:02 Oh God. OK, cool. We'll put, we'll put Denon in there. And I went to year 3 and I was very apprehensive. But like you said, very, very, very quickly you realise that 80 percent, 90% of the skills you have as a teacher are just completely transferable down to different year group. There maybe are some different needs. For example, like going to year three, they were a bit more needy. It was a Junior School. So they were, they were all brand new to the school. So things like routines for the entire community and getting to know adults, that was another step that they didn't quite get right. So yeah, it was difficult, but I can work through those things. I can adapt, I can change and my practise can still be good and, and I can still have the trust of my, of my SRT, which I did have. If you work in a bad school, it doesn't matter how much you love the ear group. Maybe you don't have trust as a professional. Maybe you feel like you can't affect change and you can't actually make your way to being happy. So it's it's about control as well. I think you can control a lot more in a year group. You don't want to teach, but you're in a good school as compared to if you're in a Europe. You do want to teach, but you're in a really negative. School and in a good school you'll get the support. If you're struggling with the year group, you don't want to teach, you'll get the support because it's a good school so that you know they'll make it better. So.

10:08 What's what's a year group then out of interest that you least want to do, let's go from early years to year 6. Is it just a straight line? I ish I, I pretty much think so, yeah. I think if we're simple it like I said, year 4 and year 6, when we get to the higher ones, year 456, it might switch a little bit. I think year 4 is probably my peak. But yeah, as you go down, I think I'd, I'd, yeah, rather teach EYFS the least and then year one and then year 2 and then year three and then year 456 can jump around, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, completely. But again, that's only because, like you said, there's only because I've not had that much experience. I wouldn't actually shy away from it to be honest with you, if I, if I had the opportunity or not the opportunity, if I, if I was told in my career you have to do this, I would have been a bit worried about it, but I would have done it and I have enough confidence in myself to think I probably would have just enjoyed it once I'd got over that initial hurdle.

10:52 If you think about, I always think about it's the most pure form of teaching. Like I shouldn't really be aversed of it. I should be really excited by it. Because when they come to me in year 4, Year 5 or year 6, there's a certain level for the vast majority of the children where they can understand things, they can read and they can do basic maths etcetera. Whereas there is something to be said about how I'm full of respect for people who work low down to policy because you're literally teaching children to actually read. Yeah. Like, to start physically, like, they can't read. And then you teach them and they can read. Yeah. What that. Is there anything more like rewarding than that? Like. It's insane. That's why I think year one's on a bit of a pedestal for me. For that reason, EYFS I think is more scary for me or something like that's closer to me to like nursery in terms of like the proper national curriculum starts, doesn't it, in year 1? And isn't EYF guidance and framework, which is a bit more loose?

11:40 That scares me a bit more. Because it's loose. Because. It's loose. Whereas year one I'm a bit like, OK, well, at least I know I've got these objections because I can start, like you said, I can, I can really go off this framework now. Whereas before that I'm like, they're just a bit too young for me. I think. I think I'd be way more like, I don't know what I'm doing anyway. I just went all over the place with year one, a little bit more structure. I can, I can get with that. And like you said, it's just such an important time, vital, so important like getting the foundations right. And we know if you look at data that, you know, although there's obviously mobility in the way, in the way children perform and change over time, those foundations do have a huge impact though. Like getting it right in the 1st place does really help kids trajectory as they go through school and into life. So like, it's such a huge important job. It's, you know, it's, it's a big one.

12:22 Unnerving. Yeah, I think that's the word. Unnerving. I'm not against it. Whereas a bad school I'm against. Yeah. Don't leave it to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Horrendous. So there's nothing I can do there. I'm done. Done with that. I have a podcast because of bad schools. All right, Yeah. Anything else shoot in the next one. Yeah, go on, you can keep reading. Oh, can I? That's nice. This is from Jacob. I'm going to be starting my PGC next year and I'm super excited. Well that's nice to hear. I have a good amount of experience volunteering in schools and working with children, but mostly in small amounts through school holidays where I've been home from uni. I know that a PGC is really intensive. Do you have any advice for getting the most out of the course or any prep I should be doing beforehand? Love the enthusiasm. I say it one more time because I've said it a million times in this podcast. My PGCE year was my favourite year in education. Really.

13:09 Yeah. And I count as education because I was, I was in university, right? Yeah, Yeah, It was my favourite single year in the whole of education because it was it was so inspiring. I don't know, like it was, I wanted to become a teacher. I was really excited by it and I was in schools and I was working with kids and I was realising how special this job was and how much of an impact you could have. It was really intense. You did a PGC as well. How did you feel about it in general and audition tips? Well, yeah, it's interesting because similar sort of feelings, but I took it really, really seriously. I don't sound stupid, of course you take it seriously, but I was the classic like at uni. Before that I was a bit of a dosser. I wasn't doing that much and even at the end of my school career or sixth form, I was forming a level of education. I was, I just wasn't giving it my all. So I got used to doing things the last second. Whereas with the PGCE, I really, really took it seriously and properly dived into it.

13:56 So I guess my, my first bit of advice, I mean, I don't think I need to give it to Jacob. It sounds like he's going to do this anyway, is to like fully, fully immerse yourself in it. It can be a wonderful experience. And yeah, we'll sit here and say as ten years on, like, oh, teachers should be doing this and should be doing that. If we're checking their contracts and not getting taken advantage of. It's almost a different conversation to that PGC year because the PGCE year, I'd be saying honestly, just whatever you want to give to it, give to it. Like if you want to absorb your entire life into it, do that because it is a fantastic way to learn and you are going to learn a lot. Yeah, it's about rapid learning. That's how I look at it. And the more you put in, the more you get out. I think at that, at that level, I do think there's lots of things out of your control. Like you know who your mentor is can have a massive impact. Having talked to a lot of people, I was lucky I had a good mentor.

14:42 Who you're placed with, the teacher you're placed with, how supportive are they? A lot of teachers, from what I've heard can be a bit hands off and be like, OK, you're my student, off you go teach. I'm going to go and put a bit of extra. Time. Yeah, just using time. I was again very lucky with my teachers that they were not only fantastic teachers but really helped me as well. But that's things you can't control. Talking about things you can control, I absolutely agree with you. Plough yourself into this, do everything, say yes to everything you can possibly say yes to because it is exciting, it is fun and most importantly, you're there to learn. At this point it isn't a job. Absolutely. I understand there's a lot of training courses out there that are treated like jobs and you get paid for your time. I understand the importance of that. But when I say it's not a job, what I'm saying is your primary focus there is not to earn a living.

15:25 Your primary focus when you're doing PGC is to learn as rapidly as you can. So whatever works for you, go for that. And I found that the more I put in, the more I got out and the more you do earlier on in your career, you will thank yourself later. I'll give one example. How many lesson plans I had to write that were pages long for one lesson? Or even I remember the first bit of teaching I ever did was a math starter and I wrote a page and a half of plan for what I would do for this 10 minute math starter. Right? Ridiculous. I'd never do it today if someone asked me to. Like what is wrong with you? Of course I'm not going to do it. However, if I was 22 again doing my PGCA, I would do exactly that again. I agree. Because it's in doing that for the first few times yourself that you learn what works and what doesn't. You realise yourself what is best for you. You see what's a waste of time.

16:14 You see what works and you learn and you learn and you learn. And over time you can strip that back because you become the expert. You're not the expert yet, and that's OK to understand. I absolutely agree. And I even took on the whole like lesson because I remember a lot of people moaned about lesson planning. They were like, oh, the other teachers don't have to write all these lesson plans out and we're training and we've got to do essays. Why am I writing these lesson plans out? And I was never on that line of thinking. I was always like, because we don't know it yet, because we haven't absorbed it yet. And I really think it helped me become a better teacher by I actually continued it into my first year of teaching. I didn't do after that, but in my first year of teaching, I continued to, especially for observations and things, properly write out my lessons exactly. All of the pedagogies, I was thinking everything I wanted to achieve in that lesson, and it would be like 2 pages sometimes.

16:56 But eventually that just became my second nature because I feel like I absorbed it so much because I was thinking so critically and deeply about all of these things I've learned and all these practises I want to put in place that yeah, the other teachers were just doing naturally and they weren't writing all this stuff down. But I knew that difference and I knew that I'd get to that point. And there were some teachers who were like very quickly, like, Oh yeah, I'm never doing that again. I was rubbish on writing down lesson plans. OK, that's fine, but I feel like I benefit a lot from that. So yeah, absorb yourself into that process. Trust the process. Yeah, definitely. And when you first do it, you're not planning 15 lessons a week. So for example, when I, when I planned my starter, right, Oh, the teacher's not doing that. No, the teacher's planning 15 lessons. I'm planning a 10 minute starter. I'm writing a page and a half. Like I was interested in it.

17:37 I wanted it to be good. So I put that time into that. And yeah, I'll just say right now, just for balance here, I think in my ECT year, I very quickly got rid of those very, very detailed written plans for every single lesson because I found it unsustainable and also not very helpful eventually. And it didn't mean that I was doing it under duress in my PGC year. I actually throughout my PGC year managed to draw that back. Draw it back because you have to be thinking as well, what's the end goal of your PGC? You want a career in teaching? Yeah. So you have to think, OK, I'm going to be in ECT next year. I'm going to be teaching this much. So I'm going to start by doing 1 starter a week and I'm going to finish my PGCE at least being able to manage teaching. 80% timetable for. ECT. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have to manage that journey and I think pushing your awe into it and slowly thinking about, OK, well, actually it will be unmanageable for me to write a two page plan for every single lesson I do when I start my ACT, right? So how can I work towards that goal as well, but still get the most out of it?

18:34 The second thing I want to talk about, and I'm interested to get what you think from this, because I was very much a last minute person, even though I took it very seriously. My PGC in school was a job, right? I treated it like a job was the essays. They they, they ruined me a bit because he's finally get to half term and it was like, OK, I can switch off apart from I can't because my essay deadline is the end of half term. How did you deal with that? It was stressful, I won't lie. Like and previously, I was never amazing at essays. I mean, my previous degree I was, you know, I was all right, but they weren't great. And I really did try extremely hard on these ones. But I think back now, maybe passively, I picked up more than I give credit for. I don't think considering how much effort I put into essays, I don't really think I reaped loads of rewards from the time input that I put in, when really I probably could have just spent 5 minutes reading some sort of summary about Piaget.

19:23 You you, you have such bad advice of this. I need to I really disagree with you completely. No, I don't think right. I don't. I don't think spending is good though. Talk about 30-40 hours. Listen, you don't have to do that much. Writing I I think you probably. No OK for any time, but writing a 5 minute summary of Piaget is absolutely not getting at the bottom of like what he was saying. I don't know, I feel like I could I feel like I picked it up pretty quick like back back in the day or if I got still whatever, but OK, right, this is. OK, in the same way that anyone off the street who's of a certain intelligence, I can explain by Gottsky and they'll say, oh, I get it. Yeah, they don't actually really get it. They understand the vibe, right, but, but, but you've got to say that there is a benefit to reading in detail what these people are saying. But it's a huge drop off is what I'm trying to say. I got a huge benefit from that first hour, let's say of looking that's different to a 5 minute summary. OK, fine.

20:10 Let's get an hour. OK, But even still, an hour is nothing compared to how long you'd spend writing this essay. Really. Like in terms of the actual reading, if you did them properly and you actually read the things which no one ever does because they they were just skipping to bits in the books or finding parts that they wanted to reference. But I I felt like it was worse that I did that. It probably was worse, but then the time was even, it was completely unmanageable. And if it was actually like, you actually do have to read these 17 books that you've referenced, is that OK? I can't act. I don't even have, there's not even have hours in the day to read this many books. Like, so I don't know. I just feel like what I would have got, what I got from maybe an hour of just looking at bits from Vygotsky and then having to put in my essay. That was enough. Then the 20 hours of writing the essay and referencing more stuff, it was a huge drop off in terms of like, how much more I was getting out of that.

20:50 Yeah. So I always resented that a little bit. Yeah. Because I didn't feel like I got much more. I could. I could have just stopped 10% of the way into the journey and probably got out of it what I needed. And, and again, I think it's very easy later on in your career to look back and say, oh, it's pointless, It's stupid. Who cares about pedagogy? Vygotsky, who? I never use PR anymore. You probably do. Yeah, you do like, like you probably do because you, because you put that time in in your PGCO, you sat through, you know, people talking to you via lectures in university that you thought were completely pointless or you went into school. Naturally when you're planning lessons, you will draw upon things subconsciously even that you've listened to and read. So you know when people say that they are kind of wrong, like, OK, yeah, it can be boring. You don't want to listen. You don't. Not going to sit down to a lecture now and listen about I've got skin Piage right 10 years into the career of teaching.

21:34 However, to say it's pointless isn't is the nonsense to me because it is it is important and even if it feels like common sense, it's like, well yeah, but they're the prevailing structures because because it's common sense and because it works. So I think but I but I, I must say coming full circle, I agree with you that I got way more out of my time on the ground teaching with quality teachers than I did or I felt like I did at least out of writing essays or being in lectures because. At the end of the day, it was PGC, right? There were two parts to that. You were, you were doing the degree element of it where you are in a degree, you generally are expected to write essays and write at a really higher, higher level education level. But then you were getting the certificate of education, you were getting your QTS. That's the one. So it was, you know, I think you can just look at that and be like and appreciate that you are doing both and yeah, OK, how much do do that? Are they worth equal time?

22:21 Yeah, probably not really Like you're going to get more out of the placements. Like you said, the essay, it's kind of I still reps like somewhat enjoyed them. But when you say is it worth equal time, I don't think anyone's suggesting it is because everyone on the PGC spends way more time in a school than writing essays. So like I just don't think it's a fair compare. I think it gets a really bad Rep. Basically it's like, I think the the pedagogy version and the academic side of a PGC kind of gets brushed under the carpet as like, well, it's not as important as the school. No, it's not. And it isn't like in the way it's set up like you have to do 3 essays a year. How many hours in a classroom are you actually teaching? Like it? It's probably the right amount of balance, right? Ratio. Yeah, probably. But like you said, it comes at half terms. It's annoying because it's not like factored in time wise. Yeah, it's not like you.

23:03 Oh, this, this placement. You have two weeks off to write those essays. I know you've got to do on top. And I think it depends what kind of essay and and piece of writing you're doing. I remember vividly doing a bit of research. I'm putting in inverted commas here, which is all about manipulatives in maths and using manipulatives and seeing what impact it had on children. And I would take some children out of a lesson and teach them division with no manipulatives. And I'd take other children out of the lesson and teach them division with manipulatives. And then two or three weeks later I'd go back and teach them again and see how they understood things. And we'd be comparing scores and seeing, you know, did it embed more in children who had manipulatives and understanding compared to children who didn't? That was really interesting. Like, and it was actually a really good part of my practise where I could actually practise it myself in children, but also with manipulatives, but then also seeing what my results were. And then comparing it to the wider selection of academics that's out there who already have written about it and, and done that.

23:56 And actually I felt like I got loads out of that, that really, you know, and then kept my kind of attitude. People say like, what, why do you like this mass mastery and stuff? Why are you so invested in it? Why do you think it's so good? Well, because I learnt through that in my lectures and because the new curriculum was being embedded, but also because I did that bit of research myself. And absolutely me seeing that work was a big part of me thinking I really, this really can have an impact. This informs my practise going forward. And me writing that essay and pulling together arguments and ideas from different sides made me a better practitioner. That's, that's, that's absolutely true. So I just think like sometimes just brushing it aside is unimportant. I I don't like that.

24:36 And we talk a lot about how it's important to get qualified teachers in who are professionals. Yeah. And I do think a chunk of that comes from that side of it as well. That is important and does put you in good stead compared to maybe someone who doesn't get that at all. What's more about intelligence? Academics that that side of it is like closer to that world of life. I don't like that. But it is though, isn't it? Like your? Proof of being able to write a really well coherent like well written coherent essay is more to me at that point about like so you. Your intelligence. Like, I don't know if that's the right word. I'm going to just try and be clear. Here I I'm talking more about the process of doing that research and putting things together and reading different points of view. Right. Yeah. How well and coherently I can put together a written essay, I think isn't, isn't, is quite an archaic way maybe of judging that process. Right.

25:21 Sure. And, and I do agree with that because there's people who I know who have dyslexia who could have gone through the exact same process I did and produced a technically worse essay that learned as much as you. Learned as much as me got. As much from it informed their practise, as much became more of a professional because of it. But when they put it in to turn it in and their professor marked it, it wasn't quite coherent, didn't quite flow, didn't quite follow the structure. Yeah, so I agree, that's quite archaic to me. But I think the process of that learning is important and should still be put on a pedestal. Yeah, definitely, definitely so. If you do your PGCE. Embrace it, that's what I'm saying. Embrace all aspects of it and be prepared to be knackered. I agree and after. All this. Did you go back and do a master's, an education after I No. I didn't, but I did.

26:04 It's because it's because my PGC was math specialist. Was yours? No, I did. Just think about when. I went back and did a master's. No, you did a master's. Isn't it weird how you went back and did a master's? Oh, I think this is all important, pedicle. It's very important. But I'll do a master's and go 6 grand extra into debt. Do you know? Do you know why? I was too allured by when you do a PGCE, you get a bunch of credits for your masters at the end and it works out a third of your masters. Yeah, it's like a club card price. I looked at that yellow, yellow credits and I was like, I can't not it's a third off. I can get a masters in 2/3 of the time. Yeah, 6 grand instead of. Nine. What a bargain. And the school paid for it. They did, which I didn't. You then pay back. I had to pay. Back a chunk of it, yeah. Yeah, I had to stay at the school for a certain amount of time afterwards. What's that master's done for you? Well, I get to write it down.

26:48 You know, when did you write it down? I get to put MA next to my name in all of my research projects. When have you done a research project? Well, they haven't happened yet, no. So the only perk is you get. To write MA down and you've never actually the only perk is. I get to say I've done a masters on this podcast in front of you. Who hasn't after trying to? Convince me it's unimportant to do research in education. That's why I brought it up, because I thought it's good. It's brilliant. No, but it's funny because now I think it's pointless. Just a round off. Just a round off. I didn't really enjoy writing essays that much, all right, except for my masters where it was extremely important and valuable, which you did alongside. Full time teaching? Yeah, I know, but. A third off.

27:28 So it was worth it. I was like, I can't not. It's like Black Friday. Isn't it what was 499 now 200? I'll get that. Never to Didn't even need it. Didn't need it or. Want it and it will be no use to you. I'll read the next. One OK how about that anonymous What is a good way to improve your confidence with public speaking? I often find it daunting talking in front of adults and my peers. Any advice is much welcome. Fake it till you make. It baby, just make yourself do it. Get up there, talk, sweat and shake until you stop doing that. It's weird because you're still on that. Journey to become more confident. Yeah. So what are you doing? I actually am like. I can't say that if I was to stand up in front of 100 random adults, I don't know that I wouldn't be nervous. How about thousands in front of a? Podcast that's fine because they're not there you. Know what I mean?

28:13 Just cameras. Guys. Just you're not even there really, are you? But but when there's, there's something to be said, isn't there? When you're standing on a stage with a microphone, there's loads of people looking at you. It is quite unnerving. But my only thing to say is it was probably the same experience for most of you. It was for me when you first got in front of the children and eventually it's nothing to you, it's the same. I imagine it's the same with speaking in front of adults. You do it enough times and it just becomes nothing. So you've just got to do it. I think a big A. Big piece of ice leading on from that is that don't feel like nervousness or anxiety around doing it means you can't do it. You'll be surprised how many people who you see as very good public speakers still have that nervousness beforehand.

28:54 Like it's completely normal. I actually genuinely every time in my career, I can't remember now how many, you know, CPD sessions I would do as mass lead it. It's probably 15 right in in my career, I don't know, maybe it's probably more, I don't know, but I would say there was not a single one where beforehand I didn't have like it might feel like my heart dropping or a bit of nervousness around it. Even though I knew these people at the back of my hand, they were my colleagues for the last eight years. I've done this millions of times before. Still, even standing up in front of just my colleagues, there's always that aspect of thinking, oh, well, I'm the voice of reason here and I'm the person telling them what to do and why it's good to do it. Like, that's a bit nerve wracking as well. It's not my comfort zone. My. Comfort zone is speaking in front of 32 kids, not, not a bunch of adults and maybe one TA. Do you know what I mean?

29:38 Like something like that if you're lucky. Yeah, yeah, definitely. But do you feel like it went down though over the years? Like, do you feel like you got less even though you still had that feeling? Did it? Yeah, 100%. Because it's through doing it and doing it. And I felt like the more often I did it, the less nervous I was. And if for whatever reason there was a bigger gap in between doing it, I'd start to feel a bit more nervous again. And I think, oh gosh, I want to make sure I say the right thing. I want to make sure what I'm saying has has value. Like there was a mixture. Actually, there was two things I'd think about, which is 1, just the act of standing up and talking to people. And there was 2 was the content of what I was saying. Like I'd get nervous about both. And I felt like the act of standing up and talking in front of people. I actually got less and less and less nervous doing that. Maybe teaching helped, right? But I did not really like it took a long time for me to then more like that imposter syndrome of why would they bother even listening to me. That was like a separate thing almost and interesting. If I'm, if I'm talking, if I'm giving advice now to someone who gets nervous around talking around their colleagues, it would genuinely be do it like put yourself out there, talk for 5 minutes.

30:38 Even if you ask to maybe do a part of the staff meeting that has nothing to do with your personal, you know, responsibilities or thoughts on something. You are simply relaying information to the whole staff team. So you don't have that part of you that's thinking always what I'm saying relevant or is it useful? Ignore that. Just literally maybe relay some information in, you know, you might have a staff meeting in the morning where everyone gets together 15 minutes. We have a bulletin for the week. Use that you just just say 3 or 4 things Oh yeah, this week guys for this, this, this and this this and this just information so that you can try and go over that part. Yeah, definitely. And talk to. Other people as well. That's my last bit of advice. Talk to other people that do it or just watch them when they do it and just think what they doing.

31:19 Is there anything they do with their body language? They look nervous and then just say to them, do you feel nervous? And you'll find that most people be like, Oh yeah, always a little bit, always a little bit. But then I just get into the flow and it's all and it's fine. And it goes away over time. So have you heard of that advice? Before about public speaking, which is like before you go and do it, just go to the toilet, go into a cubicle and literally stand as tall as you can and put your feet wide right. Stand there for the whole time and don't do the talk. Don't do the talk and and put your arms out. Yeah, and beat your chest out. And it's it's ridiculous because it sounds crazy, right? Yeah, but it actually is backed by science and works in terms of you, you'd open yourself up a bit more. You are faking it until you make it. You trick your body into finger, then you're confident.

32:00 Because think about what you naturally do when you're scared or nervous. You cower a bit, you put you pull in a little bit, your shoulders come towards yourself. You're looking down. If you just honestly do a power stance like this for like for like a minute, a big one like that and you you're faking it. You're you're building confidence. It sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? But watch any politician right? There's a reason why they have a really wide stance when they go out there. It's a reason why they puff their chest out a little. Learn these things. It's. Because they have been taught. It by people who know what they're talking about and it is what you said at the start. It's faking it until you make it. Don't feel confident. Trick your body into thinking it. Put your chest out. Don't don't don't be timid. Don't be down. I'm going to do it now I'm. Doing it right now, I do feel more confident. I feel like a bear. Do you actually?

32:41 You look. Like a bear, Do you? Do you? Do you actually? Or you just say no, no I don't, but I. But I can, I can appreciate it because I because I fully buy into that sort of stuff. I really like having faked it till I've made it with lots of different things. Now I'm I'm fully on the side of it. I think it's until you mucked it. I think that's the question. God's sake. Thanks for that, Eddie. It works, isn't it? Like I've done it enough Times Now. I'm like, Oh yeah, you can just pretend to do or be something and and eventually you just kind of feel like you are. And it's like, cool. So I can I can totally appreciate the idea that there are like quick things you can do to like help speed that process up like a, a stance of your body or something like that. Small little things we've. Been posting on social media, felt like an idiot for a while, just did it. I don't feel nervous at all. And how about posting on social media at all?

33:22 It's not even a thing anymore. And also our YouTube channel where we've done lots of things before. Putting yourself out there is scary. Public speaking is the next level up. It's hard. Just do it, do it, do it, do it. You can't get better at something if you're not even doing it. I agree, just do. It right next question anonymous. Is it possible for any teacher regardless of experience to not do any work during half term and weekends? The Sunday slash end of holiday scaries are real. Doing work can become a strategy to relieve the anxiety, but deep down you know you shouldn't be doing any work. Any tips to deal with this will be appreciated. Thank you there. Is a way because I lived it for a while. There is a way, but it's so rare and it, you know, when we talk about not doing these types of things, I'm doing it to start a conversation.

34:06 I'm doing it to plant a seed. I'm doing it to make you think where can you cut back? And when I say don't do stuff outside of school, etcetera, I've done it myself. What I'm not saying is every single person in every single situation up and down the country and every school can, can do this immediately. But what I'm saying is you could definitely cut it back, right? You can definitely cut it back. So my my quick answer to that is you could right, but you might not as well and and and don't think to yourself, well, I can't am IA failure. Should I not be doing this? No, no, that you might be in a situation where actually in this moment you can't just do nothing at all. But I do agree that we need to be working towards it a bit more. Yeah, we should. I I think it's two separate. Points isn't it? We should be working as a profession to a point where it is an option and actually you shouldn't be having to do loads of work in your own time. But I feel bad.

34:51 I hate the idea that this person's who said like deep down, you know, she'd been doing it, but I'm doing it to relieve anxiety in the holidays. If that works for you, then that should just be OK. You should if you want to, if you want to relieve a bit of anxiety because you because you feel nervous about the amount of work you're going to have to do in term time and for you doing a little bit of work in half term or on a Sunday for you relieve the anxiety that you're going to get in the week and that works for you. I hate the idea that you then feel bad about doing that because you think the profession like if that works for you, I think you should do. I've done that. And because I sympathise with that, because there have been times in my career where I think I know I've got time to do this in the week, but I will feel better in myself if I just get it done now and then I've got freedom in the week and I choose to do that. I think what you're saying is.

35:32 Different though in terms of I think it's a bit of a false dichotomy sometimes because if you're saying, well, it relieves your anxiety, so you should just do it. It's like, yeah, but I'm anxious, not out of choice. I've got to get this work done right. But I've I what you're saying is true. If, if you're thinking I would, I'm going to move my work from after school on the Wednesday to the Sunday because it just helps my anxiety. I think that's good, really good advice and clear, however. But what I would say to people is I don't want to gaslight people into tricking them into saying, Oh no, but it relieves your anxiety. So if it's good, you should just do it. Yeah, because I've got to like me feeling anxious is because I've got to do this and that relieves my anxiety. Sure, right. It's sure it does. But it's because of the system that's in place and the, the, the expectation put on staff. That's not fair as to why sometimes people feel that anxiety.

36:18 And it's like, well, OK, my, the option is either to feel anxiety or to do 4 hours of work on a Sunday. Well, I don't actually want to do either. So, so me doing the four hours of work, if it solves my anxiety, that's great. But I've done 4 hours of work on a Sunday, just like if I don't that four hours of work on a Sunday, great. But now I'm anxious all day. So all all I'm saying is, I think your advice is really good when you've got control over your time. And if you're choosing to move stuff into your, your weekend for whatever reason or more power to you as a professional, we should be able to do that. The issue comes when there is a school that has an environment of an expectation of you should be doing all this extra work. That's an issue. And that's the schools I'm kind of talking about when I say I get it. Like it's not just as simple as what I say, just don't do something.

37:00 You'll be on a support plan tomorrow. So I think it's why we need collective action. So you're asking for advice. My advice genuinely would be for a for a while, just write down how much work you're doing outside of your contact hours. So when I say contact, by the way, not contract, so just write down how much work you're doing outside of when you have to be in front of the children. Some of that will be expected and fine. For example, in this thing I'll be writing down, I would be writing down from half free till 3:45. Maybe I might have aspects really quickly from 3:45 till 5 past four. Maybe I went and had a quick E group meeting from 5 past five past four up until 5:00. I was marking big rights. I went home in the evening. From half 7 till half eight. I was planning next week's writing, right? I'd Add all these things up.

37:43 I'd look at it after a few weeks and I'd be saying, OK, look, this is unsustainable. What am I doing that I have to do? What am I doing that that I have to do? That has two prongs. I have to do it and it's good for the kids in my class and me. I have to do it and it's not really having an impact. I just don't simply have to do this at all. And I can immediately stop that stuff is stuff I empower people to do immediately. The things where there'll be no repercussions for you not doing it, but you've just chosen to, but you don't really understand how much you're doing until you've written it down for a week or two. Get rid of that immediately, right? The first group of stuff, you have to do it and it's good for the kids. Continue doing it. It's part of your job to do a bit extra it most of that was still forward in directed time. Some of it won't, but it's part of our contract to do a bit extra.

38:25 And we all understand that. Keep that. The bit in the middle is the sticking point. And that's the thing that's harder to budget. And my advice for that bit in the middle, which is stuff you have to do but is pointless, is to get some collective action going. Talk to your colleagues, explain how much time you're doing on this, see how much time they're doing on it. Can you cut it back and still provide the school with what they need from you? Maybe you can. That's cut you a bit of a time as well, extra as well, by the way, what we've already cut out. Then if it's still pointless and everyone thinks it's pointless and they're all sinking time into it as a collective, go to leadership and say, hey guys, we're professionals. We've got loads of experience between us. We've been doing this for a while now. I've been logging how much time it takes. Here's the impact it's had. We don't think it's worthwhile as professionals and we're choosing not to do it because it's extra from directed time and we control what we do extra from a directed time because that's what's written into the contract. That is what I would be doing.

39:16 It's not an easy thing to do, but it's something that's really important I think, to do because it gets the ball rolling. Half the time. SLT will look at it and go, I trust you guys. OK, cool. Let's see what we can do. The other half the time if you're in a school that isn't as receptive, you still need to start that conversation because then it can go further if it has to. Yeah, definitely, definitely. And that's. When you start to understand the makeup of your school, isn't it the culture, the toxicity, potentially, if it's in your school, it's those kind of conversations. Yeah. Really good, really very good advice there, Dylan. I'm gonna read one more question before we stop. OK? This is from Millie from Maidstone. She put in there. She's a she's a big fan of the pot. Go on Millie, she said tips on improving staff and parent engagement. I'm on the school PTA and I love organising the events, but support from staff and parents is limited. This is.

39:59 Tough. We've talked about this a lot, I don't think. You can't force it. This is probably what Millie's realising here. Like she's doing all this lovely stuff and people still aren't putting themselves out there. I'd find it hard to be judging parents and and teachers for not really going an extra mile. OK, Teachers are overworked as it is, right? A lot of teachers, I think, And I'm already doing extra. This is lovely, but I have to put a line somewhere and this is an easy thing for me to do. Listen to what I just said beforehand about getting rid of the stuff I don't need to do. Unfortunately, it is this kind of thing that is in that third category of I don't have to do it and I won't be moaned out for not doing it. Yeah, yeah. So it's a big. Unfortunately, it is huge because it's. Really good for the kids and I might really want to do it. That's why you have to tackle that stuff in the second bit I talked about earlier because then you might free up some time to do something nice like this.

40:45 I think what Millie's doing is fantastic. I think anyone working on APTA deserves huge applause for doing what they do because it is literally just for the enrichment of the kids at that point. I agree. I don't know about you and I'll come on to maybe some advice in a second, but just thinking about this now between teachers and and parents, I do really think that the onus is way more on parents to do stuff in, in this respect of a PTFA because teachers, Yeah, I'm doing my job. Yeah, I'm ready. I'm doing that part there. These are your kids. Yeah, I agree. So what do? You, I've always thought. That I was wondering if you were. Going to say that because that was kind of in the back of my head of like, especially now we've got kids. I'm like, it is my, she is River is my child. And I'm ultimately considerably more responsible than the teacher. Like when it comes down to those collective things, like, yeah, I probably should be if if I'm not interested in doing it, then I really can't expect the staff member.

41:33 Who's? Already working overtime to go and do that for someone who's not that child, like I I agree it's more on parents. I mean, it can be tough, like if you're in Millie's position, and I think I was in that position more especially near the start of my career when I had particularly when I had left responsibilities. I live at home. That was great. I just had more time and I was fresher to the job. I don't know if Millie's new to the job or not. Yeah, I think newer. Yeah. And, and, and I definitely remember thinking, oh, other people aren't engaging as much as me staff, maybe even parents. But as I've went through my career and my life change, I did then go, oh, OK, I get it now. I can understand that people's lives are different and actually me doing something nice that was great. But that's, that's enough. I didn't, I didn't really maybe need to worry too much about other people. It's nice for the people get involved, but I didn't get help about it.

42:18 You know what I mean? I just sort of thought, OK, people are in different positions. I'm sure there is someone that you might look at and think, oh, they could have helped as well, they just didn't want to and you have to just let it go. I think you just have to go and that's OK. They didn't want to because they don't have to. And I think it's different than. Choosing not to do something or saying oh I can't for whatever reason that's different to them than maybe like ridiculing you for going above and beyond like I've heard from. I've spoken to many briefly on TikTok as well and just commented about how it can be frustrating sometimes when people who are longer in the tooth as a teacher kind of look at the enthusiasm of a newer teacher and, and kind of diminish it and say, Oh, what you doing that for? And, and it really it, it struck me. I was like, God, that's so awful. Like the enthusiasm and the verve that we get from younger generation of teachers. It is vital in a score.

43:03 It's why we need a really good cross section. Because again, I'm not blaming experienced teachers for becoming disillusioned. I'm not blaming them whatsoever because I was one of them by the end where I thought, this is just mental. What, what it's taken advantage of. It's crazy. But still, I still have that love for teaching. And when I see someone new come through who has that drive to do loads extra and really wants to, I'm like, yes, let's cultivate this. Let's not take advantage of you, but you want to do this. You're you're passionate. It's an amazing thing. It's really good. Exactly that. So I, I think people like Mellie who are teachers who are on these boards, who are doing this above me on this extra, they should be applauded. I really do. And I've always said this when we're talking about or teachers going on strike or teachers saying no, I've always, always prefaced it with if you choose and want to do something extra, that's fantastic.

43:45 It's when we're pitted against each other that I hate both ways. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. So it's a weird one because I thought I've not really answered the question because I don't really have any tips on improving stuff. I'd I'd be focusing much more on the panel. Parents, yeah. You know, if I was involved in PTFA and I was a teacher, I'd be putting a lot more of my effort into reaching out to the parents, suggesting things, maybe putting stuff out to votes, for example. I don't know, whatever it might be, just getting an idea for what, what parents actually want to do with their children and then working from that. Rather than me thinking I want to do this thing but no one else wants to do it. I'd be saying, OK, cool. What do parents want us to provide for their children as a PTFA? Yeah, let's give them what they want. You're totally right, actually. And actually. Low stakes things like votes and polls and like things like Q&A's, but getting people getting parents to write in with their suggestions, doing those little things where they can engage, where they don't have to sign up to some 3 hour event and they think I don't want to do this. And it's quite high stakes really. Lots of little and often low stakes things that parents can engage with even if it takes them 5 seconds while it all questionnaire at the end of the term, whatever it is that I think that's probably your pathway to maybe getting some people there in a bit more like, you know, getting their heads turned and be like, actually that's like, you know, after the fourth thing they've done.

44:51 Actually that does look like quite cool. I might volunteer to help with that one actually. Yeah, that's probably isn't it really low stakes. And when they see their kid like. It if, if, if Rory came home and was like, oh, they're putting on this thing at the weekend. It's this this creepy crawly guys coming into school and the PTFA are running it. Can I go, Dad? I'd be like, yeah, sure. It's like, oh, no, it can't. They need volunteers, though, OK, You want to go, son? Aiden couldn't do it. Millie could do it. Millie's on the way. Millie's on the way. Exactly. Yeah, No, I agree. Yeah, from a. Teacher, I'd be much from a parent point of view, I'd be much more like, Oh yeah, like I'm with my kid at the weekend. Anyway, this is what I do at the weekend. This is why I'm saying no to extra stuff as a teacher. Yeah, because I've got my kid at the weekend and my kid wants to do something at the school that needs help.

45:32 Volunteering. I'll be the first person on that list. I'm not against volunteering. Well, son, you should. Ask your teacher first if they're free on the weekend. That's what he's going to say. Yeah, Go on. I know we're together at the weekend, but ask your teacher if they're free and maybe they can run it. Are they not bloody? Bloodied, lazy teachers. Honestly, why they're not running. I know they're working hours and they're. Not working at the weekend? No. Yeah, that's insane. No, I'll go. I'm your parent when you actually think about it. Isn't it mad? But the only thing I think about is what can I do for my son at the weekend? I'll provide that. So, yeah, aim for the parents, low stakes. Go from there. That was a nice episode. It was. Yeah. Thank you. Thank. You for writing everybody because we love answering your questions keep them coming yeah, we've got loads and. We've got loads more to come join the WhatsApp community down below leave us a like if you're watching on YouTube, if you're on whatever kind of podcast streaming website or platform, maybe you could leave us a review.

46:19 It really does help us review. That would be great and. Potentially press that old follow button. That would be lovely. Wow. Share it with someone as well. Maybe a parent from a PTFA maybe. See you next time. See. Yeah.