Ep 134: Will Ofsted Ever Get It Right? Report Cards, New Gradings & Wellbeing Controversy

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Hello everyone, welcome back to
another episode of Teach the

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Repeat.
My name is Dylan and my name's

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Hayden, and this week we're
going to be taking a look at the

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brand new Ofsted report cards
they've dropped.

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They're here to stay.
There's a few changes Ofsted

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have made.
We're going to go through all of

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them and discuss why
fundamentally, we don't think

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that these go far enough.
Right here we go again.

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Talk about Ofsted.
Let's let's get into it because

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it's something we covered a lot
in it, several points in our

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podcast career, let's call it,
where we like to talk about

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Ofsted.
And I just get annoyed.

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It really just frustrates me
because I feel like teaching and

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education in our schools and our
children absolutely deserve some

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kind of independent body that
can come in and assess schools

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and just make sure they're
getting what they need.

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But I just feel like this whole
system is completely broken,

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doesn't really work whatsoever,
just strikes fear, anxiety,

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worry across the board in so
many schools.

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And we've lived it.
We know that's true.

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It's not just us looking and
going.

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We don't like being judged.
No, no, no, no, no.

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We are absolutely fine and we
know and understand that we need

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to be held at higher standards
as educators.

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But the way Ofsted runs, it's so
frustrating.

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And the reason I'm annoyed now
more than ever is because

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obviously the report cards have
been rolled out.

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They were first mentioned a few
months ago.

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We did a podcast episode about
it.

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And it just feels to me as if at
no point do any of these changes

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actually seem to be addressing
the problems that school staff

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mention.
And it feels as if everything

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that they're implementing now or
introducing, it's just the same

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thing repackaged with a
different word, maybe at the top

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or a, a, a different line saying
how they care so much about

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schools without it actually
really making an impact

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whatsoever.
And, and I think that's why I

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just wanted to start off by
saying I am all for the reform

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of Ofsted and things changing.
And I want that to happen.

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And it frustrates me that I feel
like every time Ofsted do

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something or say something,
it's.

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Just more of the same and, and
it feels like we're not being

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listened to whatsoever.
Yeah, that's the frustrating

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bit.
I, I think there are, we're

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gonna go through some changes.
I think on the whole, from the

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parents perspective, like we can
talk about some of the changes

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being quite positive, I think,
but the biggest, like you said,

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the biggest problem is, and I
and I even feel like they tried

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to listen to the feedback from
the first when they bought this

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out months ago and we and we
reviewed it and we said a few

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things that our opinions.
I feel like it feels like

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they've listened to a few of
those things, but just whilst

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ignoring the big one.
It's like, Oh yeah, oh guys,

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sorry.
These are all little things as

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teachers all screaming like,
what about the crippling

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pressure it provide it puts on
us.

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Well, what's that?
It's like they kind of hear that

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bit.
They didn't hear that bit.

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It's like, that's the bit that
feels like, damn, that hasn't

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changed.
Oh, the fundamental issue we had

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with it in the first place.
The big one.

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How about, how about, how about,
how about how about we just

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changed the word outstanding to
exemplary.

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So let's just go through some of
these changes and let's just

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dive into them.
So we all aware of actually what

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is happening, what they're
doing, what we need to know.

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And I just want to give a big
shout out to schools Week.

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My goodness me, Schools Week's a
website has articles about

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what's going on in the world of
education.

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I find myself on it multiple
times a week, just keeping up

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with things.
Amazing journalism, really,

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really useful.
I think if you're a teacher or

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anyone in education and you
don't know about Schools Week,

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my goodness me, just jump on
there because short, sharp full

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of information is what we're
going to be using today for a

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lot of what we're talking about
South.

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First thing, the first headline
thing I did AI did a Instagram

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reel about this was the fact
that they are renaming the

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grading system again.
So let's just go back initially

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it what used to happen a year or
two ago is a school would be

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judged by Ofsted and at the end
would get a one word judgement

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for the whole school.
Yeah, I think we all agreed that

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was a bit daft.
It's hard to compare then a good

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school with a good school with a
good school with a good school.

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They're all obviously very
different.

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So that was kind of like a bad
way I think of judging schools.

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So what they did initially, they
said OK, cool, we're not going

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to do one way judgements of
schools, but we do still have to

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judge different areas of your
school, for example, the

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teaching and learning, for
example, the inclusion.

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We're going to get into all
those different categories in a

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minute.
So they initially had said, OK,

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cool, we're going to rename
them.

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And we made a joke about this,
how it's not very different.

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And they said we're going to
have from the top what used to

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be outstanding down to what used
to be requires improvement and

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even inadequate.
The new scheme was going to be

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this, the new way of doing it,
exemplary at the top, strong,

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secure, attention needed and
then causing concern.

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So what I've said I've done is I
think this is what you alluded

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to earlier about them listening,
right?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So they, they listened to people

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potentially and they said, OK,
look, fine, fine.

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We're listening to you
educators.

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We're hearing what you say.
And we know it's really

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stressful and it's high stakes
and leaders are getting really

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anxious about it.
We're going to change the words

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again.
So here's what they've done.

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They've changed.
Let's go through one at a time.

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I want to get your opinion.
So also the original 1, you said

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the new one, OK, go on.
So exemplary is now exceptional

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necessary change.
We've come from outstanding to

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exemplary to exceptional.
Yeah, what a waste of time.

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I know that.
That just seems mad.

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The next one it was it was
strong.

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That's not enough.
It's now strong standard.

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Strong standard.
OK.

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This is the big one.
I thought, well, actually

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there's a big one, but this is
an important one.

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Secure.
OK.

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And this was said to be quite
confusing.

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Yeah, secure, they changed it to
expected standard.

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Yeah.
So that it's in line with what

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we would say for the children.
Yeah, I I actually think as far

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as words go, I probably prefer
expected standard over secure.

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Yeah, sure.
Irrelevant really.

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Yeah, but but it's like, OK, if
I had to pick between the two, I

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probably would pick that one.
Fair enough, Fair enough.

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Next one down was attention
needed.

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Well, it's now.
This is so funny.

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I've not really realised how
funny this is.

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They've changed it from say
again.

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Attention needed.
To needs attention, yeah.

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Fair play.
Why have they done that?

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Don't want to be shown to keep
them the same.

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Dylan and the last one and a bit
of context to this one, because

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professionals and parents were a
bit concerned about the the

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terminology of the previous one,
which was causing concern.

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They were like, it's a bit too
negative, it's not very nice.

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So they've changed, causing
concern too, urgent improvement.

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Yes, he's gone.
I'm going to do it sort of in an

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audio audio way.
He's gone from all bit causing

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an urgent improvement.
This is terrible, no?

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Is that better?
Here's what gets me about this.

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This is what I think.
This is what summed up like I

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think the annoyance of school
staff and educators because

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Austed say they say, right, OK,
look, causing concern.

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OK, look, we don't want to give
providers that judgement because

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it's unnecessarily harsh,
clearly.

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OK, we can, we can agree, OK,
we're fine.

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And it's like, wow, instead of
listening, they're saying that

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words do matter and they do
matter in this case.

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And they're saying causing
concern is bad.

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Wow, Ofsted have they've finally
realised that there is a bad

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thing to do and they're going to
improve it.

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They chose something worse.
They chose something more

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alarming.
They're like, yeah, causing

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concern.
We don't, we don't want to, we

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don't want to do that to our
poor, poor providers.

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So instead of saying it's
causing, we're going to say

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urgent improvement.
So it's like they've accepted I

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was saying, you know, words
matter.

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You need to be careful the way
you say things.

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They've gone.
Yeah, that's true.

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Let's make it worse, yes?
I know, literally.

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It really cracked me up when I
first saw that.

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I thought, surely not.
They must have a reason behind

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it.
Maybe they were just doubling

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down there.
Yeah, it should be that the bad

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one should be bad because it's
bad.

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Maybe that, I don't know, maybe
that's what they're doing.

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But it certainly sounded softer
to me to say I was just causing

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someone said that to me.
But OK, there's a bit of an

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issue here, but it's not that
urgent.

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We can sort it out.
When you put the word urgent in

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it, it's like it's immediately,
right now, terrible, as terrible

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as it can get.
So bad that we urgently need to

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improve it.
All right, all right, fair

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enough.
So where you want to go?

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This is interesting.
Schools Week ran a blind online

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survey asking readers to
distinguish between the criteria

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for secure and strong
descriptors.

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And on average, more than of
more than 3000 respondents got

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two of the five wrong.
So clearly there was a bit of a

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discrepancy there.
Back when it was secure and

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strong, They they've tried to
make it more clear.

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And you know what, fair enough
that they've they've made

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efforts to make that more clear
for people to understand.

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I don't think that's a bad
thing.

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I'm not going to sit here and
say everything Ofsted,

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everything is bad.
But to me, the other one is

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insane.
If they if they've accepted that

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causing concern can have a
negative impact on the

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well-being staff and then
changed it to something

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literally worse, I'm just like,
OK, we can't win.

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We actually can't win.
Are they doing this as a joke?

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Yeah, yeah.
So funny, absolutely cracked me

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out.
So that was the first of eight

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points that we go through.
The second one again from

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Schools week is core inspection
areas reduced from 8:00 to 6:00.

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So this is something we had a
massive discussion about when we

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first did our episode on when
this was all released the first

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time.
And I remember think we actually

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said something on the lines of
some of these inspection areas

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that you mentioned inclusion
earlier.

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I'll go for all eight in a
second.

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We were like, aren't they kind
of the same thing or at least

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similar enough to be banned into
one?

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And it sounds, it looks like
they've clearly listened to

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similar feedback and they've and
they have reduced if made six.

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So I'm going to go for, I will
read the original 8 inspection

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areas that could be graded as
the following grade of the

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grades.
We just talked about urgent

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improvement perhaps.
And then we'll talk about the

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how some of them have been
merged.

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So the original eight were
inclusion curriculum, developing

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teaching, achievement, behaviour
and attitudes, which is 1

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attendance, personal development
and well-being as one and

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leadership and governance as
one.

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So lots of like, you know, like
you said, I, I don't think we've

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never sat here and said Ofsted
should be scrapped completely

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and there should be no
accountability.

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So I, I, I don't have a problem
with the idea of accountability.

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And obviously it makes sense to
break it down into different

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areas as well.
But I do think they missed a few

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tricks with that.
It didn't really like somebody.

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It was just a bit vague.
I thought some of those like

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00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:37,480
that.
Well, we said it straight away,

229
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,960
like curriculum and teaching,
they are one in the same, right?

230
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,280
And it is nice to see the offset
have gone.

231
00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,920
Do you know what, you know, we
don't need these 8 categories

232
00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:49,400
anymore.
We can just go down to six and

233
00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,240
actually curriculum and teach
and we can put it into one.

234
00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,360
Because remember we said if
we're having developing teaching

235
00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,360
as its own stand alone thing
that's being judged against, we

236
00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,120
can see how that would become
detrimental to staff well-being.

237
00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,040
Because suddenly imagine a
situation where a report card

238
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,360
comes back, everything's in the,
you know, the Nandoscale green,

239
00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:09,520
right?
But the only thing that's

240
00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,520
syringes developing teaching and
you just know for a fact in the

241
00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,840
wrong school, the wrong
environment in the toxic school,

242
00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,280
teachers will have that on their
back constantly for the next.

243
00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:19,680
That's what's letting us down.
That's the developing teaching.

244
00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:21,640
The teaching is bad, right
teachers, we need to do this.

245
00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,280
We need to do that.
I can just see it being a way of

246
00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:25,560
pointing fingers, pointing
fingers.

247
00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:27,080
So it's nice that it's kind of
merged I.

248
00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,080
Think I would if I worked in
that school and it happened, I

249
00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,440
would constantly be referring to
myself as a spicy teacher,

250
00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,840
preferring to nanoscat until
they just stopped talking to me.

251
00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:35,720
I think that's the only way you
could battle that off, you know

252
00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,200
what I mean?
Was IA bit too spicy?

253
00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:38,240
Was I?
A hot baby.

254
00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,560
Was I extra hot when I was?
Teaching lemon and herb and

255
00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:42,160
then.
Lemon and Herb eventually leave

256
00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:43,440
me alone, I think because they
just they.

257
00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,240
Dismiss it.
What I found really, really,

258
00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,440
really, really interesting, and
I'm not sure how I feel about

259
00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,080
this, is that they also then put
together behaviour with

260
00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,400
attendants.
Yeah, So they they they put

261
00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,560
those together.
And I guess my problem with that

262
00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:59,800
is I feel like it's putting them
in the same boat as if they're

263
00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,200
the same thing and as if, you
know, attendance is a symptom of

264
00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,480
behaviour.
And I do think they're very,

265
00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,560
very separate things.
And I think they have very, very

266
00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:09,680
different reasons as to why 1
might be good or bad.

267
00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,600
And I think lumping them into
one is kind of detrimental.

268
00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,200
If you've got a score with poor
attendance, it doesn't

269
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:18,400
necessarily mean behaviour's
bad.

270
00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,440
No.
So I, I, I do just find that

271
00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:21,240
odd.
And I don't know, I can't

272
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,280
remember what we said in
previous episode, etcetera.

273
00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,000
Maybe we said, oh, we could if
they were together.

274
00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,840
But you know, having now kind of
gone into it more detail about

275
00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,480
the attendance crisis and
behaviour etcetera, it does

276
00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,360
struck me as slightly odd that
we're going to be judging them

277
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,880
both as one thing.
I guess what I, I can imagine, I

278
00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,600
was trying to think like, what
is that line of thinking of

279
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:39,520
this?
Because they've obviously done

280
00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,160
it for a reason and I guess
they're trying to say poor

281
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,640
attendance is a behaviour like
I, I, I can imagine they're

282
00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,200
really loosely linking it to
it's the behaviour of the child,

283
00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:49,200
whether they.
What's?

284
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,680
Coming to school or not, it's
insane because to me behaviour

285
00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:54,480
is such a a distinguished part
of school life.

286
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:55,680
There's nothing to do with
attendance.

287
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:57,600
That's why it's insane to me
because I'm like, I get I can

288
00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,560
understand that line of
thinking, but there is something

289
00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:02,800
called behaviour policies and
right behaviour that in school

290
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,640
where there is nothing to do
with attendance like and the the

291
00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,960
other side of this that that
that surprised me a little bit

292
00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:10,640
is do you remember when we first
did this episode?

293
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,280
They were banging on at the
time, They still kind of are

294
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,840
about this attendance crisis and
how attendance needs to be

295
00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:17,880
better.
I'm very surprised they then

296
00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:19,080
haven't kept that as a separate
thing.

297
00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,280
I'm like, they are like adamant
that this is like a behaviour.

298
00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,600
Is this singularly really
important thing?

299
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,080
Sorry, attendance, yeah.
Is this such an important thing

300
00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,080
that he gets his own pedestal?
And I'm like, now they've just

301
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,160
banded it with behaviour, which
I think is also a massive thing.

302
00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,080
So I was a bit surprised to see
they've done that.

303
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:35,760
I think there's a huge
difference as well, I've got to

304
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:37,720
say, between primary and
secondary school.

305
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,880
I do actually think, I think
they're more interlinked in

306
00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,560
secondary school, but to me
still separate enough in terms

307
00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:45,760
of children do have more
autonomy as they get older as to

308
00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:46,840
whether they go into school or
not.

309
00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:48,080
Yeah, true.
And etcetera.

310
00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,520
I can't really, I can't honestly
think of many children in my

311
00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,280
time as a primary school teacher
that were persistently absent

312
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,880
where it was because their
behaviour was bad, like, or.

313
00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,600
I can't really think of many
schools that I've been in where

314
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,840
the behaviour policy and the
attendance policy were were that

315
00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:05,760
interlinked, that they should be
judged together.

316
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,040
Off the top of my head, I can
only think of the opposite.

317
00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:09,560
I can think of children right
now.

318
00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:12,880
Where I would say, oh, the
attendance was honestly almost

319
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,920
nothing to do with them because
like they're, they're tiny kids,

320
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,600
They're not, they're not driving
themselves to the school,

321
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:19,800
they're not in water school
themselves.

322
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:21,880
They're being taken to school by
parents and carers.

323
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,200
And it had nothing to do with
their behaviour.

324
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,000
Like it just literally had
nothing to do with it.

325
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:27,520
So yeah, it's a weird one to
link it.

326
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,520
Hopefully there'll be some
clarity like in within the

327
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:31,720
report card, which we'll look at
in a minute.

328
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,160
You know, hopefully when they
are actually probably rolled

329
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,440
out, there will be some clarity
in the way they present that

330
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:38,480
information.
I don't know.

331
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,800
That just separates behaviour
and attendance a little bit in

332
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:43,560
the way.
Even if it's in the paragraph or

333
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:48,440
the descriptors, I don't know.
I also hope that schools aren't

334
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:53,000
judged on pure attendance data,
rather what they're implementing

335
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:54,600
to try and improve it.
We, we talked about this

336
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,280
previously.
I don't see much about the, I

337
00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,640
don't know what it will be yet
and how it's judged etcetera.

338
00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,520
But you know it, it can't just
be 92% attendance is this level

339
00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:05,560
on the spiceoometer 94%
attendance is Lebanon herb.

340
00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,280
You know, it can't just be that
because a 94% attendance rate in

341
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,840
one school and a 94% attendance
rate in another school, one

342
00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,080
might be absolutely fantastic
for that area and it's a huge

343
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,440
improvement and the other one
might be negligent or actually

344
00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,800
you could be at 9798.
Well, I get a really good

345
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,680
feeling, and you have to stick
around in this episode to find

346
00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,080
out why, because it is point #8
when we get to it at the bottom

347
00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,120
of this, I have a really good
feeling that they're actually

348
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:27,960
going to do the battery.
Be right of that you trust

349
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,040
Ofsted.
I don't want, I don't think I

350
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:31,320
want to.
I don't think I want to say that

351
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:32,680
on a podcast then because it
could get clipped.

352
00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,280
But I do feel like there are
some positive changes in in

353
00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,080
these eight points.
And I think the next one is so

354
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,480
you'll listen in to #8 because
that's where I kind of describe

355
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,000
what it is.
I know I'm just, I'm I'm really

356
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,800
getting hang of this.
But #3 is again, something I

357
00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,280
thought I read it.
I thought this was quite good.

358
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:49,560
So I'd be interested to get your
opinion.

359
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,320
We've not talked about this
before this.

360
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,760
It says school context narrative
to run alongside the grades.

361
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,600
So what that means is, well,
I'll just read it.

362
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,120
Ofsted had faced widespread
calls from the sector to replace

363
00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:01,560
grading with narrative
descriptions.

364
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,920
This is something we mentioned
even way back before this new

365
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,560
Ofsted stuff came out.
When we were talking about

366
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,200
Ofsted in general, we were like,
wouldn't it be better if we

367
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,680
replaced like one word with
maybe a sentence or even a

368
00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:13,240
paragraph?
Because you can get a bit more

369
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,320
nuance in it about the school.
And they were obviously pushed

370
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,120
to do that with these because
they were rightfully criticised

371
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,560
that, oh, you're just using one
word again though, right.

372
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,320
Like it's kind of the point.
We was we didn't really want one

373
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,280
word, yeah.
Yeah, so it wasn't the fact it

374
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,480
wasn't exemplary that made me
annoyed by this.

375
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,960
System so below the information
where they where they can get

376
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,680
the the one word grading are
still they will now visitors

377
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,520
will now be able to click on
each of those judgement areas to

378
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,960
reveal several paragraphs of
narrative verdict which I think

379
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,080
he is just a net win.
In all honesty, I don't know

380
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,320
what if you have any thoughts?
On that, you know, it's, it's

381
00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,400
good.
I just listen, I don't want to

382
00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,000
be the person every single time
he sits here going.

383
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,600
So because, because my, my issue
still is with the

384
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,120
inconsistencies of the reports,
the way that, you know, you

385
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,680
could still get an inspector
come in, who's a secondary

386
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,960
school teacher who specialised
in sixth form, who's come in to

387
00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,680
judge an Infant School.
Like, I don't really care if I

388
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,120
can see a power of his opinion
on how phonics should be taught.

389
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,240
Like I think, OK, sure, it's a
good thing.

390
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,360
And there's more accountability
and there's more context and for

391
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:10,400
parents, that's obviously a good
thing.

392
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:16,760
I don't see how this has
remotely any impact on schools

393
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,400
themselves.
And, and, and if anything makes

394
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,280
it more anxiety ridden because
you know, you're about to get

395
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:23,600
written up on absolutely
everything as well.

396
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,080
So, so you know, it's great for
people who want more information

397
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,120
and it's, and it's hitting the
box for parents, etcetera, who

398
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:32,600
want to go and find out about
the school.

399
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,520
But as as an educator, I'd be
thinking, Oh my God, it's just

400
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,280
another thing.
It's just another, but it's

401
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,160
another, it's another hoop I've
got to jump through because I

402
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,200
know they're going to be writing
up everything about it that'll

403
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,920
be available to parents as well.
If anything increases that

404
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,840
anxiety doesn't actually take
anything away from that.

405
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,400
Sure, it's more clear.
And I'm, and I'm not saying it's

406
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,600
a bad thing, by the way, I'm
just looking at it through the

407
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,320
lens of educators.
I'd be like, OK.

408
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,000
Yeah, it's an interesting point
about the anxiety it puts on

409
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,920
teachers because I do also think
that really like this whole way,

410
00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,080
whole way through my, you know,
I can even give my conclusion

411
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:04,079
now.
I don't really think that the

412
00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:07,640
anxiety levels have changed much
of any of these things.

413
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,000
I feel like it's no better.
We sort of said that, but I'm

414
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,280
trying, I guess I'm trying to
isolate this.

415
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,440
I just, I where I just think
it's an improvement.

416
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,560
Like I feel like I probably if
I've got a pick between just one

417
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,880
word or one word with a couple
of sentences, it just explains a

418
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:25,520
bit more as to why that one word
has been chosen.

419
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:26,720
I think I'd still choose that
one.

420
00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:29,200
Sure, probably for sure.
Even though they don't really

421
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:30,840
make me feel any different, I
just think that's better.

422
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:32,080
Yeah.
And that, that's kind of

423
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,400
hopefully summarised by what I
mean when I say like, I'm like

424
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:35,960
shrugging my shoulders at it.
I'm like, yeah, yeah.

425
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,800
I'm like, yeah, OK.
And it would be nice to see if

426
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,040
you maybe got, I don't even know
what the levels are now.

427
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:43,040
There's so many words in my
head.

428
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,960
If you got average dude as your
level, it would be nice to see

429
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,640
why maybe that you got that and
it would must see the reasoning

430
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,000
behind it because then maybe
it's easier to either accept it

431
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,160
and say do you know what, fair
enough, or say that is just

432
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,160
nonsense though.
Whereas beforehand, maybe it was

433
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,120
more like, yeah, good, yeah,
yeah, Chronology.

434
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,000
Chronology's off in history.
It's like, is it, What can you

435
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:04,760
explain it?
What?

436
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:05,920
Nah, Nah.
That's why I can't explain it.

437
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:06,720
You've been there for three
days.

438
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:07,440
Can you explain it?
Nah.

439
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,440
I'm not saying it's a bad thing,
I'm just saying like it's, it's

440
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,720
from from a from a school's
point of view.

441
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,240
OK.
I think you mentioned another,

442
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:17,520
you snuck in another little
point there.

443
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,160
It's probably a wider point
which I want you to address now,

444
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:25,880
which is you said about not
necessarily caring about this

445
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,200
paragraph full stop.
Because if it is someone who's

446
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,560
come in, you don't respect
basically who's written this

447
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,680
because maybe it's a secondary
school expert and they're coming

448
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:34,680
into judge of primary school.
Respect is harsh.

449
00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,400
I don't know, I don't know what
the word is, but like, but you,

450
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,040
you clearly put that as a point
of to like, well, that I might

451
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,920
not, you know, I might not even
care about the sure, the

452
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,080
paragraph based on who's written
and what their experience is and

453
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:46,720
and whether I can trust their
opinion on it.

454
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:48,520
Like what can you go into that a
bit more?

455
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,080
So what I'm saying here in more
detail on a on a wider level is

456
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,600
that if I were to write, if I
were to put into a list of

457
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,920
things I think Ofsted should be
changing for the better, there's

458
00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,040
things that come before adding a
paragraph for every evaluation,

459
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:04,080
right?
So it's great.

460
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,160
You can, I'm not saying it's a
bad thing, this change.

461
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:07,800
I'm not saying, oh, it's awful
that you're adding in this

462
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,720
paragraph information, but if
that comes before actually

463
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,640
ensuring that people who are
judging schools have experience

464
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,360
of being in that school setting
themselves and are experts in

465
00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:20,880
that school setting.
I don't care what you have to

466
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,200
write about it at the end.
Because I'm listening to someone

467
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,080
say how phonics should be taught
to in the early years from

468
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,920
someone who spent 12 like that
their whole career, you know,

469
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,280
running a sixth form.
And maybe they were, they were

470
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,080
they were a sixth form.
They've got their expertise and

471
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,440
they're fantastic at what they
do, but I don't want someone to

472
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,160
come and judge my school's
phonics capability.

473
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,720
Honesty from someone who's never
taught phonics in their life.

474
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:47,440
Do you think they can't?
I don't.

475
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,000
I don't think that they can't.
I think they could.

476
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,640
I think it could be trained up,
but I don't necessarily trust

477
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,120
that the training is fantastic.
I don't think that it's

478
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:57,480
consistent whatsoever.
I think that the fact that you

479
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,440
could have 5 and I would go as
far to say 5 very different

480
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,240
offset inspections simply based
on who they send to you, I think

481
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,600
that's not good enough.
And I think there should be a

482
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,520
minimum experience requirement
level of people who come in and

483
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,240
judge a setting of your
experience in said setting.

484
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,000
I, I just think it's insane that
we just don't have that base

485
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,840
level of just, there are enough
Ofsted inspectors out there.

486
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,240
I'm sure that we could at least
say, well, if you be in a

487
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,960
primary school that's been
judged, your lead inspector has

488
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:28,880
experience in the setting of a
primary school.

489
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:31,640
That seems to me to be the bare
minimum that we can accept.

490
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,600
I'm obviously not saying that
someone couldn't possibly do

491
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,960
that job.
All I'm saying is let's just

492
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:38,200
have that as the base.
Requirement, yeah, let's

493
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:39,880
maximise the chances that it's
going to be.

494
00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,440
I think it's such a high stakes
procedure, yeah.

495
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,440
Ofsted in general an inspection,
it is really, really high stakes

496
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,720
and it causes, like said, a lot
of anxiety for people.

497
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,600
It needs, it needs to be right.
You know what I mean?

498
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:52,920
Because you're right.
The, the, one of the biggest

499
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,880
gripes of Ofsted over the last
however long has been that 01

500
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,280
school got an Ofsted inspector
in that said this, this and

501
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:00,200
this.
And this other school got an

502
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,400
Ofsted inspector in who said the
complete opposite things and

503
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,320
praised us for these things that
that school just got ripped

504
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,320
apart for.
And the inconsistency in the

505
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:07,880
inspectors was a massive
problem.

506
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,440
So I do agree in terms of the
hierarchy, we need to be like,

507
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,440
we need to be prioritising
Ofsted inspectors being the

508
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,000
absolute best they can possibly
be at that job.

509
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,040
And and yeah, making sure
they're in schools where they

510
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,320
have a proper expertise before
we add in a paragraph.

511
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:23,920
I do agree, but I'd like to
think that we can, we can do

512
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:25,240
both.
You know, that they should be

513
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,280
just prioritising both those.
This is great for the parents.

514
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,280
And it'll also be even better if
yeah X happens, which is that I

515
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,240
wouldn't.
Even necessarily not do it now

516
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,760
because the order's wrong.
Don't get me wrong, or all I'm

517
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,240
saying here is from my point of
view, is that there are more

518
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,880
pressing things that I think
should be changed sooner.

519
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,800
Changing exemplary to
outstanding to whatever else it

520
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,000
was as a superlative for
something fantastic is, is

521
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,040
honestly, to me so ridiculously
pointless waste of time that I

522
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,840
can't fathom that anyone's brain
power was remotely put towards.

523
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,040
And what's the best word for
that?

524
00:21:55,320 --> 00:22:01,320
Because no one.
No one on this planet at all was

525
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,840
annoyed by outstanding being a
thing instead of exemplary.

526
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,880
No one, no one, no one was
saying when they said one word

527
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,520
judgements.
They were talking about the

528
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,440
macro level of a school just
being a good school.

529
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,400
It's not very useful.
That's why it's good.

530
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,480
I think that they got rid of
that once one word judgement.

531
00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:17,800
But what we're seeing instead
now is that schools, instead of

532
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,800
having a big massive banner
outside saying outstanding

533
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:21,960
school, they're just doing that.
But instead of saying

534
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,280
outstanding wants, they're
saying outstanding 4 times, and

535
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,560
all they'll do after this is say
exemplary 4.

536
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:27,560
Times.
And you know what they'll do?

537
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,280
Teaching exemplary Inclusion.
Exemplary.

538
00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:30,320
Exactly.
It's just.

539
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,520
It's not going to stop that from
happening, and I just think, OK,

540
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,040
we're getting to the root of why
a lot of schools are annoyed.

541
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,160
And frustrated, it's not really
fixing that.

542
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,600
I saw an argument that that was
saying that the banners will

543
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:42,800
increase.
And I was like, here we go.

544
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,160
And they were like, because now
there's six descriptors that

545
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,840
they could get exemplary in, and
they'll just put that one on it.

546
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,440
Yeah.
It's like, we are exemplary at

547
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,520
leadership.
And it's like the other ones,

548
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,280
we're all, you know, we're all,
hang on, let's go back to this

549
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:56,160
scale.
The other ones were all

550
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,520
absolutely, urgently terrible.
But this.

551
00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:00,760
And it really made me laugh
because I always thought, Oh

552
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,960
yeah, banners will stop being a
thing now because there's not

553
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,680
just one word grade.
No, no, I think it was 6 to

554
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:05,880
choose from.
I've already seen it, by the

555
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,680
way, on schools that have had it
since right where instead of

556
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,560
saying we're outstanding, yeah,
they'll they now have they list

557
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:12,920
because it was forced out for a
while.

558
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,800
Yeah, when they changed it like
they they got rid of the one

559
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,200
word judgments before any of
this came in.

560
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:17,920
Yeah.
So instead the school would have

561
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,320
leadership and management
outstanding, teaching and

562
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,400
learning outstanding.
And you know, it's I don't

563
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:23,880
whether they have the.
Report card on the.

564
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,480
Banner literally and it's just
like, you know, harder to read,

565
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,160
more of an eyesore but still
doing after.

566
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,040
That at least with these
narrative changes, we can now

567
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,680
have the banners that have the
entire paragraph on it.

568
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,240
At least you know what the small
print will be there.

569
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,840
I'd rather that.
Can you click on the banner?

570
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,120
It just extends.
You can just contact.

571
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,680
It's just the person, they're
employed all day to unfold it

572
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,360
when someone goes.
It's just one massive QR code

573
00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:48,760
and it goes to the the
dissertation of the score,

574
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,560
right?
Go on next one then I'm, I'm,

575
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,280
I'm interested by this.
What, what we're talking about

576
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:54,640
here.
They mentioned about toolkits

577
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,920
being tightened up, a bit of a
backlash.

578
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,720
So Ofsted pledged earlier this
year to publish tool kits for

579
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,280
each evaluation area to take any
mystery out of inspection.

580
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:06,760
Clearly a good thing.
By the way, I think you should

581
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:07,840
know what you're being inspected
on.

582
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,040
So providers can be clear about
what we will and importantly

583
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:12,760
will not look at as Ofsted
inspectors.

584
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,640
These will Orient around the
expected standard grade is what

585
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,800
the watchdog said today.
The likely three most common

586
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,440
awarded grades which are needs
attention, the expected standard

587
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,680
and strong standard.
So the three in the middle will

588
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,000
appear on one page, then the two
extremes, either urgent

589
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,200
improvement or the exceptional
will sit on the following page.

590
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,480
So clear guides hopefully for
what each standard looks like.

591
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:36,880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ofsted said.

592
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,040
The expected standard is in the
middle of the page of the

593
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,120
toolkit because this is what we
would typically expect to see on

594
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:44,360
inspections.
It covers the statutory,

595
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,160
professional and non statutory
guidance that providers are

596
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,960
already expected to follow.
Meanwhile, the strong standard

597
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,360
has tighter definitions and
looks for evidence of practise

598
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:56,360
to be consistent, embedded and
highly impactful.

599
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:01,440
So overall, I don't want to get
your thoughts overall on schools

600
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,800
being given this.
You know, there'll be some

601
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:06,760
people out there who say, well,
you shouldn't need it.

602
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,200
You should just be, you do what
you do, offset come in.

603
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,520
And then if you're, you know,
you're just working towards the

604
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,240
curriculum, why is this vital?
I've always thought that it's

605
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,000
complete insanity, by the way,
the idea of like, ohh, you don't

606
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,560
we're gonna come in and do this
really high stakes judgement

607
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,840
you'll get every few years, not
gonna tell you what on the.

608
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:26,320
Yeah, yeah.
Could you?

609
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,120
Because we're just
professionals, not kids like

610
00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:29,560
this is.
What do you think this is?

611
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,080
Or you might cheat.
Cheat.

612
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,120
What do you mean what implement
good policies like Follow the

613
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:38,360
guidance that you're looking for
so that you can see that we're

614
00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:40,160
good at what we do.
Like what you're talking about.

615
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:41,880
It makes no.
Sense it's the speed camera

616
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,640
argument.
Yes, it is the speed camera

617
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:44,920
argument.
It's always the same.

618
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,720
It's just like, why is the speed
camera there?

619
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,520
The speed camera's not there as
a way of racking up money,

620
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,000
although in some cases it does.
The speed camera's there to slow

621
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:53,920
you down.
Yeah.

622
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,880
It's like, well, you need the
speed camera to slow down.

623
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,800
So yeah, some people do.
Yeah, absolutely.

624
00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,920
And then therefore they've
slowed down and that's good

625
00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:02,000
because then it's more safe.
Same thing here.

626
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:04,080
You got the, you got the things
you're looking for.

627
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:05,720
Oh, but then schools will just
do it.

628
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,160
Yeah.
That's the idea, literally.

629
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:09,880
Funnily enough, that is the
point.

630
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,040
When I was a kid, just to speak,
everything really made me laugh.

631
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,040
When I was a kid I remember
questioning to my mum, I said

632
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,840
why do they put a warning sign
before the speaker.

633
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,520
I could not get my head around
it.

634
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,720
I was like, you're not going to
catch anyone doing that, are

635
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:22,960
you?
Everyone's going to slow down.

636
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,400
That's stupid.
Yeah, they're not going to get.

637
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,080
There and my mom was like,
that's the point.

638
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,120
She was like, they want people
to slow down.

639
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:30,120
We don't actually want to catch
people speeding.

640
00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:31,720
We don't want people to speed
right.

641
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,640
So the more signs you put in the
better because people will start

642
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:35,800
thinking about slowing down even
earlier.

643
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:37,160
And sometimes there's not even a
speed camera.

644
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:38,920
They just put the signs there to
slow people down.

645
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,440
And after I was like, oh God,
that makes so much sense.

646
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,240
And I do feel that exactly what
you just said.

647
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,000
I won't just regurgitate the
same thing, but.

648
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,160
I could you can.
I couldn't build more strongly

649
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,760
about the idea that obviously
schools should be given as much

650
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,160
information about the about the
inspection as possible,

651
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,720
including, by the way, when
they're going to come and do it.

652
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,960
That's that was a whole nother
conversation that's not even

653
00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,400
mentioned.
In this, but let's come back to

654
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:00,720
that in a second.
But let's dive into what you

655
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,160
just said.
Because again, This is why I get

656
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:04,920
so annoyed.
This is why it started off with

657
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,800
me being frustrated because it
took a backlash for Ofsted to

658
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,240
accept that and tighten up this
toolkit because it was going to

659
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,880
be quite vague.
It was going to be quite wishy

660
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:14,800
washy, like, Oh yeah, maybe
you're kind of like that.

661
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,680
Kind of, oh, we're going to, you
know, Oh yeah, we used to deep

662
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,000
dive there.
We're going to deep dive there.

663
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:19,000
Yes.
And you know, just make sure

664
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,080
you've got everything ready for
me.

665
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:25,160
It took backlash again, from
teachers, from educators for

666
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,000
Ofsted to be like, oh, yeah, OK,
do you know what?

667
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,200
We'll give you that.
And that's what frustrates me so

668
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:30,680
much.
And that's why I get annoyed

669
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,040
because sure, someone.
Well, they did it, didn't they?

670
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,920
Yeah, but they weren't going to.
And when people go, oh, teachers

671
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:37,440
always just bloody moaning,
aren't they?

672
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,800
Would get you know why?
Because this has happened now.

673
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,960
This has got more tight.
This has become better because

674
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,960
of the backlash, because we were
like, what are you doing?

675
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,000
Give us what we.
Need to know what we would like

676
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,600
is for this massive body to have
a bit of forward thinking

677
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,240
themselves and maybe just be
like, oh, do we need people to

678
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,800
moan for years for us to think
this is a go?

679
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,440
Can you just think of it?
It's like it's just it's your

680
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,960
job.
Like this is the one thing you

681
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,080
need to do, right?
It just, it just baffles,

682
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:06,800
baffles me.
So yeah, I think the toolkits

683
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,080
thing, no brainer makes complete
sense.

684
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,280
Obviously they should be
tightened up and released and

685
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,240
shared with schools so it so
that it's a positive process.

686
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,080
We again, I'm sorry, going off
on again now, but we've

687
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,280
mentioned this before of like
Ofsted's supposed to be about

688
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,400
bringing schools up.
It's supposed to be a collective

689
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,120
action.
It's not supposed to be catching

690
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:26,080
schools out.
So there was never ever, ever,

691
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,760
ever a reason for this to be so
behind closed doors.

692
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,680
I remember one year, I think
maybe it was when we were having

693
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,200
offset, it was like a, it was
labelled as like a leaked

694
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,880
document, leaked document,
Ofsted framework leaked.

695
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,360
I'm like, what do you mean
leaked?

696
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,760
Could you show me this so that
we can implement all these

697
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,600
clearly great things to our
school?

698
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,480
You're going to fudge through
the inspection what the

699
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,800
inspection, which you've decided
are the most important things.

700
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,320
Oh, they're going to do those
most important things.

701
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,320
Is it?
Is it fudging if you've done it?

702
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,160
Yeah, yeah.
It's like, come on.

703
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,560
But you can't fudge it, it's
just completely anyway #5 On

704
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,440
this list is called Exceptional.
Won't need an Ofsted Academy

705
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,200
submission.
I had no idea what this was

706
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,000
before I read this about you.
Tell me about SO Ofsted had

707
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,840
planned to require inspectors to
submit examples of exemplary

708
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,880
practise.
Is that is that outstanding or?

709
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:13,800
No, it's actually exceptional.
OK.

710
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:14,440
Sorry.
Of course.

711
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,000
Previously known.
Previously known as.

712
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:16,840
Awesome.
Yeah.

713
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,120
Sorry.
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.

714
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,080
So, yeah.
So it had planned to require

715
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,400
inspectors to submit examples of
exemplary practise to Ofsted

716
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,320
Academy, which is the watchdogs
training and development arm.

717
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:27,920
Right.
I had no idea this existed, by

718
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,960
the way, Which would then sign
off that a top grade could be

719
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,160
awarded.
So it was like an extra step.

720
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,480
Do you know what I mean?
It's like, oh, you want to be

721
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,040
exemplary?
We think we've got evidence for

722
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:37,640
it.
We have to submit the evidence

723
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,440
right, Make sure they agree.
Some more workload.

724
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,160
More workload.
Yeah, send it back.

725
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,160
Like I I can see the the
principle of it makes sense.

726
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,680
I can make sense.
They're just double checking.

727
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,480
I get it.
More heads, you know, you can be

728
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,160
really sure.
But the plan was dropped because

729
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,560
many respondents found it too
complex or worried it would

730
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,720
create an additional burden.
Right, that's that was my first.

731
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,000
Thought, which is basically what
you were saying.

732
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,960
You just said that instead,
which is what I thought

733
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:00,800
happened.
Anyway, inspectors will evaluate

734
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,440
exceptional practise, not,
sorry, not exemplary practise,

735
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,440
exceptional practise in the.
How many words are there for

736
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,080
very good?
I know in the same way as other

737
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,560
grades, which yeah, again, I
just thought was sure that's.

738
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:14,640
What?
Yeah, use your toolkit.

739
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,080
Use your evidence.
Just do your inspection.

740
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,600
Yeah, so Ofstead said all the
strong standards need to be met

741
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,800
for an exceptional grade to be
considered.

742
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,000
If they I'm just laughing at the
the the.

743
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,160
All these levels.
Yeah, the changes between

744
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,680
exemplary and exceptional.
If they are met, inspectors will

745
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,560
then look at their evidence
against the standards for the

746
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,080
top grade.
OK, So it makes sense.

747
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,960
I mean that makes sense and it's
and it's a good thing that you

748
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,600
won't need that anymore.
And again, please, I sound like

749
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,400
a broken record, but I'm gonna
make the point again.

750
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,960
This is another example of
something they were going to do,

751
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,800
which they're now not.
Back when they introduced all of

752
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,200
this and said we were the first
ones.

753
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:49,680
But what?
This is insane.

754
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,720
And people but don't move.
And then now they're tracking

755
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:54,760
back again.
So they obviously know that, you

756
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,840
know, they just didn't go far
enough and change enough.

757
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:58,280
I still don't think they've gone
far enough.

758
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,080
By the way, we'll talk about
this at the end, but go on, keep

759
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:01,040
going.
Well, one, one thing I thought

760
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,240
was interesting, this is the
last bit on this point and I

761
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,800
just want to get your thoughts
on it, is Ofsted said that

762
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,480
exceptional practise needs to be
sustained and evident over time,

763
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,000
rather than a recent
improvement, which I thought was

764
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,760
really interesting.
So you can't be an exemplary

765
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,040
school if it's like, yeah, this
is great, but you've only just

766
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,320
sort of implemented it.
It has to be sustained and

767
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,120
evident over time.
It needs to have a

768
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,080
transformational impact on the
outcomes of disadvantaged

769
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,960
youngsters.
Clearly, yeah, clearly.

770
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,240
Do you know what if, if I, if I
was thinking of what a top, top

771
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,080
level school would be, it would
be that it's doing that.

772
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,320
Yeah.
And I and I quite like that kind

773
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,160
of nod towards moving away.
It's kind of contradictory

774
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,720
because this seems to be moving
away from like we clearly can't

775
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,800
tell in two days whether you're
exemplary or not, but we're

776
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,440
still going to try and do it.
So we're still going to try and

777
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,200
get the impact over time just in
a 2 day window, like it's the

778
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,120
right thing to say.
But I just don't think it stands

779
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,680
up to A2 day inspection unless,
unless you're expecting schools

780
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,880
to have this, you know, Bank of
evidence of how they've had that

781
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,400
sustained impact on
disadvantaged kids, which would

782
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,800
ramp up the workload for
schools, which would then be

783
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,560
more of a detriment to them.
So I think it's a brilliant, I

784
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,560
think that is the right way that
we should be judging the best

785
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,160
schools in the country are doing
that.

786
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,520
But I still I don't really see
how that's compatible with the

787
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,240
current way that we do
inspections.

788
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,880
Yeah, I I get what you mean.
I think for me it highlighted,

789
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,240
you know, how it used to be good
and then outstanding and they

790
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:28,360
were kind of like the ones you
wanted.

791
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,280
You know, you have a good score
is that that was basically the

792
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:31,920
expected standard.
Yeah, we're outstanding.

793
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,720
It's highlighted to me that they
have shoehorn in that extra and

794
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,000
where it's now it's the expected
standard, strong standard and

795
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,560
then exceptional.
I'm like, I can see what they're

796
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,240
doing here.
They're kind of trying to

797
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,880
differentiate a bit more like
this this top, this top top

798
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,920
whack is like is really hard to
get and you need to be meeting

799
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,720
these like super tough criteria,
like really sustained high

800
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,040
impact over time, like really,
really making a difference to

801
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,440
kids.
I imagine what will happen is a

802
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,080
lot of outstanding schools will
now be strong standard because

803
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,120
they're not, you know, they were
what they were considerably

804
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:02,440
better than what was classed as
good.

805
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,800
There was, there was basically
there was such a massive gap

806
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,920
there between good school and
outstanding where it's like, you

807
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,680
know what, there probably is a
middle ground.

808
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,360
It doesn't make sense to say, do
you know what, this school is

809
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,040
just really strong, but they
don't have that sustained impact

810
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:14,120
over time.
They're not making a

811
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,120
transformational impact on their
disadvantaged pupils, although

812
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:18,240
they're making a really good
impact.

813
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,240
And we're going to reserve that
for some, like genuinely

814
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,880
incredible schools that are that
are just, you know, doing these

815
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:25,720
unspeakable things, crazy
things.

816
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,000
Unspeakable, unspeakable people.
Such a good day.

817
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,600
No one can know about how great
this thing is.

818
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,760
I think there's, I think it goes
both ways though.

819
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,200
I can think of a lot, a lot of
schools that are in the good

820
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,000
category, which are much better
than other schools in the good

821
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,000
category as well.
So I reckon a bunch of those

822
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,400
good schools will probably sneak
into that middle ground as well,

823
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:46,600
which would be really good.
Yeah.

824
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,720
Look, I don't think again on
paper, I am not going to say

825
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:51,400
that's a bad thing.
I think that that's a good thing

826
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,840
to have really high standards
and the the, you know, top top

827
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,240
schools only being the top, top
schools if they're having really

828
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,680
sustained positive impact,
especially on disadvantaged

829
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:00,960
kids.
That's all it.

830
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:02,600
That's all good for me.
That's fantastic.

831
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,520
Can I read the next one to you?
And I'm, I just want to read

832
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,040
like the headline point.
Yeah.

833
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:08,840
And I just want to get your
point, your point of view

834
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,360
straight because this one really
sparked my interest.

835
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,480
And it's number six.
And it's an extra inspector to

836
00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:18,560
ease anxiety for leaders.
What during an inspection?

837
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:19,639
Yeah, that's all I want to say
for now.

838
00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:20,480
I'm not going to give it too
much.

839
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,719
What does that make you?
What do you feel and think

840
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,239
straight away when I say they're
going to give an extra inspector

841
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:26,760
Now, if you have, if you were
normally going to have two

842
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,800
inspectors, you now get 3.
And they said to ease anxiety

843
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,719
for leaders, just gut feelings.
OK, my gut feeling there is.

844
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,040
If I were to think of all the
reasons why Ofsted is

845
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,199
potentially anxiety inducing for
leaders, the number of

846
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:41,880
inspectors in my school wouldn't
be on that list and adding one

847
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,120
wouldn't necessarily make it
better.

848
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,880
Yeah, let's see.
But you know, thinking about it

849
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,960
on the spot here, I can see why
that could be a good thing.

850
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,639
Yeah, because it's, you know,
it's like we said earlier, oh,

851
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:57,800
bad luck.
You've got someone who's not in

852
00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,760
this setting or, or bad luck,
you've got someone who just

853
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,000
thinks on their opinion that
it's, it's not great what you're

854
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,560
doing.
Actually, there's another voice

855
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,120
now that might actually back
your corner a bit.

856
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,960
What you're saying there is, is
the is the nuance they're

857
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,960
actually providing and saying
the reason it just really made

858
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,680
me laugh because on the surface
it doesn't, it doesn't sound

859
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:15,840
like a positive, does it?
Don't worry because it in a

860
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,240
school setting, you put in the
analogy, it's like, don't worry.

861
00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:21,120
You're not going to be observed
by the just the the head teacher

862
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:22,040
today.
Today you've got the head

863
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,360
teacher and the CEO of the of
the Academy trust is can I just

864
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,280
have one?
I don't want to like so I can.

865
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,600
Think and your mum's coming in,
she's going to watch, she's

866
00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:31,760
going to help your dogs in there
as well.

867
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,560
It's like normally having more
people watching it, it doesn't

868
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:35,440
feel like naturally a good
thing.

869
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,320
But I, I do genuinely, I can
honestly see the reason.

870
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,400
It's like, it's basically
exactly, you nailed it on the

871
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:42,840
head, to be honest of you, I've
read what they put.

872
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,400
So.
Ofsted said it heard concerns

873
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,840
raised through consultation
about the additional workload

874
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,760
that some feared the revised
framework could generate and the

875
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,520
implications for well-being of
the professionals we inspect.

876
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,760
I that's absolutely true, and
it's nice they've at least said

877
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,160
that.
I agree and we can just talk

878
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:57,560
about more about well-being I
think in a minute.

879
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,920
As a result, the watchdog said
it was increasing inspection

880
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,240
capacity for schools by adding
an extra inspector to teams for

881
00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:08,480
one day of all full inspections.
Having this extra inspector

882
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,760
should allow, should should
allow the lead inspector more

883
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,160
time to focus on engaging with
leaders, coordinating their

884
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,200
inspection team and overseeing
and quality assuring the

885
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:18,880
inspection, which is basically
what you were saying.

886
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,280
So last bit, this means we can
reduce pressure on leaders

887
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,320
through the inspection process.
Open for debate, I think the the

888
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,480
Extra Inspector will enable lead
inspectors and leaders to really

889
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,080
collaborate across the
inspection and should ease any

890
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,440
anxiety for leaders by acting as
a regular point of contact while

891
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,960
allowing the wider inspection
team the time to gather the

892
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,520
evidence.
I, I, I, I think that's good.

893
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,200
I think that's good.
I think my my gut instinct now

894
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,640
is that is overall would be a
good thing if it plays out like

895
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:48,440
it's been described.
Yeah.

896
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,880
Yeah, exactly that.
Because it still doesn't really

897
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,560
solve the problem of who is in
your school judging your setting

898
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,560
and their experience, etcetera.
But what it clearly does, it

899
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,000
clearly something can run more
smoothly if you have an extra

900
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,800
body on board.
So I think if it runs the way

901
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,400
that's been described and it's
more collaborative because

902
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,800
exactly 1 of the lead, the lead
inspector can now be more

903
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,840
collaborative with the leader
rather than trying to do 7 jobs

904
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,600
themselves.
We've had it ourselves, we've

905
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,920
been through offset inspection,
we've been mass leads doing deep

906
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,360
dives, etc.
And that inspector, it was just

907
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,240
him and he was doing everything
and he'd have points where he'd

908
00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:23,840
go away and have to type stuff
up for two hours.

909
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,120
And it can be quite isolating, I
can imagine for that inspector

910
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,520
and quite tough, like let's just
think about that for a second.

911
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,680
Like it can be quite tricky to
walk into a school on your own

912
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,680
and be like, right, I'm going to
judge you in two days.

913
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:35,000
I need to do absolutely
everything.

914
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,240
So adding that extra person in,
I think that's actually really

915
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:40,480
good because then you can say,
right, OK, let's delegate this

916
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,280
out a bit.
You're a qualified inspector.

917
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,680
Why don't you go and walk around
with the mass leads you and I

918
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:46,360
maybe go and gather some
evidence for maths.

919
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,000
I'll sit with the leadership
team and we'll talk through what

920
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,400
maybe we think is important to
look at after that and you can

921
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,760
just get more of an idea.
And give it more time of day

922
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,280
because I, I genuinely think
there are points because we put

923
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,280
so much thought and preparation
into that often inspection.

924
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,880
There were sometimes where I was
like, do you know what?

925
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,440
I kind of wish they'd give me a
little bit more time because I'd

926
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,400
put all this effort into like,
trying to display all the great

927
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:09,360
things.
We wanted to talk about.

928
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:10,960
I didn't really get a chance to
do some of it.

929
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,760
And I was like, oh, he's he's
not really got the full context

930
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,080
here.
Like luckily I can't.

931
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:16,320
We've got across what we need to
get across.

932
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:17,880
He's obviously trained
professional and he was and he

933
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,520
was, he was good at what he did.
To be fair, this inspector.

934
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,040
We had a very positive.
Experience, yeah, a very

935
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:22,880
positive experience.
He was a nice guy and but

936
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:27,360
absolutely if if like he had a
bit more time, he they would

937
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:28,640
have, we just would have got
across more.

938
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,440
Yeah, you're right.
And it may be even when I come

939
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,920
out a bit better, I don't know.
But so I can see the positives,

940
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:38,120
but totally, totally reliant on
Ofsted, like transforming the

941
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,160
the entirety of what they do
like it needs to be a

942
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,440
collaborative positive process.
And it's not that yet.

943
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,760
So at the moment I can see why
people might have their gripes

944
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:46,160
of this because it isn't that
yet.

945
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:47,880
It can be, but it's not
consistent.

946
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:49,000
It can be.
Yeah, exactly.

947
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:50,400
It's not consistently at all
that yet.

948
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,800
When it is that, I mean, this
will be genuinely, which is a

949
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:53,640
really good change.
Yeah.

950
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,280
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
I think that's that's it, isn't

951
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:56,840
it?
It's like.

952
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,800
Yeah, people have that anti
offset thing straight away off

953
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,280
the bat and and therefore adding
an extra person actually funnily

954
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,000
enough could in in like increase
anxiety in the short run, in the

955
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,160
short term.
It has to come alongside

956
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:10,000
everything else that you're
saying.

957
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:11,200
I think that's a great point.
Absolutely.

958
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,600
And so talk about inspections.
Obviously they're releasing that

959
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,320
new framework and the
everything's changing

960
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:17,920
completely.
So inspections are going to

961
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,040
restart in November the 10th,
but it's going to be only with

962
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,760
volunteer scores.
So this was interesting, I

963
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:28,280
thought.
So come in and see me please,

964
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:30,560
please.
So school inspections will

965
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,040
resume from November the 10th.
Offset have confirmed which was

966
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,480
always in the pipeline and said
this will give providers at

967
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,080
least full two months to become
familiar with the changes.

968
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,840
Look, is it a bad thing?
No.

969
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:45,880
I think it's good that you give
time to school to become

970
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,440
familiar.
I think now if it's more clear

971
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,360
what the framework is like,
they've tightened the toolkit we

972
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,640
talked about earlier.
It's clearly a good thing.

973
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,120
It just seems a bit.
The timing seems a bit crazy,

974
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,280
like how we can start the school
year and be a weekend and then

975
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:00,680
all this drops.
I just.

976
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:02,680
That seems insane to me from a
leader's point of view, You'd be

977
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,560
a bit like, could you have just
done it a month ago?

978
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,120
Yeah.
Could we have just timed this

979
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,240
out a little bit better than
when I put everything in place

980
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:11,240
and?
I've done a week already with

981
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:13,400
all of my staff and I've done
all my training of my INSET

982
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:14,360
days.
They're gone now.

983
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,400
And now I've got this dropping
on new framework.

984
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:18,440
Yeah, and obviously I want to
share it with my school.

985
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,080
Yeah, but you're kind of ignore
it, are you?

986
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:21,720
So the two-month things, cool,
but I don't know.

987
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,200
So when inspections resume,
Ofsted will prioritise

988
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,560
volunteers for full inspections
in the weeks between November

989
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,360
the 10th and Christmas.
These inspections will result in

990
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,040
a report card with a complete
set of grades.

991
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,960
Ofsted will then return to the
normal schedule for state funded

992
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,920
schools, with the full
inspection every four years

993
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,440
towards the end of the period
and not before December the 1st.

994
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,960
However, if there are enough
volunteers, we will continue to

995
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,160
prioritise them after December
1st.

996
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,680
We will not carry out
inspections in the final week

997
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:53,960
before Christmas.
Hallelujah.

998
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,520
There'll be no offset.
Inspector coming to tell me how

999
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,160
good my school fare is for
Christmas.

1000
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,000
How great's that Christmas
party?

1001
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,800
Your spread's not great mate.
I'm going to write that up in a

1002
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,560
contextualised paragraph and
you're going to get an

1003
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,840
exemplary.
I always felt so sorry for those

1004
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,360
schools where they found out
that officer were coming in on

1005
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:10,520
the day where they just planned
to do.

1006
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,280
It's like the last day and it's
like we're making angels, mate,

1007
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,720
and we're hanging it up on a
hope like now we've got to

1008
00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:17,400
cancel this because we have to
play the game.

1009
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,560
You're coming in like I felt so
sorry for schools in that.

1010
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:20,600
Position.
Can I just write?

1011
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,360
Can I just read this editors
note as well?

1012
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,560
Hilarious me because this is
from schools I said earlier.

1013
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,200
By the way, again, I was gonna
plug schools week.

1014
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,640
Fantastic resource for
journalism for schools.

1015
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,280
Editors note Ofsted publicly
discredited a School's Week

1016
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,040
story in May that reported the
watchdog was considering

1017
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,480
delaying the rollout of routine
report card inspections.

1018
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,200
However, the plans today reveal
the return of routine inspection

1019
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,160
has been delayed until at least
December the 1st and potentially

1020
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,320
January.
That's such like a like burn

1021
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,600
moment from the editor.
By the way, you said this was

1022
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,920
wrong, but it was right.
Yeah, they discredited us when

1023
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:52,960
we said this thing that they
did.

1024
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:57,080
Yeah, I think, I think, I think
this delay is, is a good thing.

1025
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:58,320
Yeah.
Can you imagine if they were

1026
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,040
just like, here's a new thing,
see you next week.

1027
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,480
Yeah, of course it.
Is it would never go down well

1028
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:03,760
no, no.
So this is the bare minimum they

1029
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,520
could do in my opinion.
The thing I'm matching on to

1030
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,400
here is read this again.
If there are enough volunteers,

1031
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:09,920
we'll continue to prioritise
them after December.

1032
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,680
I tell you what, if you're
thinking about volunteering, do

1033
00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:16,240
everyone else are solid?
Get on that list.

1034
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,640
Delay those Ofsted as long as
possible For everybody else.

1035
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,360
Get yourself on that volunteer.
List, I'd love to hear from

1036
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:23,640
ready or listening to this
right?

1037
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:25,800
Who's in maybe like Ofsted
coming up, I don't know,

1038
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,920
whatever, whatever window
they're in, who is genuinely

1039
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:30,360
willing to be a volunteer for
this?

1040
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,280
Like, yeah, I'm sure there's
some people coming, there's

1041
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,520
going to be, but what I'd be, I
just want to be interested to

1042
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,320
know like, why?
Why would you not just wait?

1043
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,200
And like, because a lot of like
previously that we talked about

1044
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,880
getting ready for Ofsted visits
previously, there'd be a lot of,

1045
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,760
oh, that school had it and they
said this, this and this, Oh,

1046
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:46,600
this school did that.
And when they did a deep dive in

1047
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,040
maths, actually they really
cared about that and they didn't

1048
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:50,360
care so much about data,
etcetera.

1049
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,240
So like, I feel like from my
point of view, selfishly as a

1050
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:54,880
school, I'd be like, I'm not
volunteering.

1051
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:56,560
I'll just just wait and see how
this rolls out.

1052
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:58,120
I, I, I coming, that's one
reason.

1053
00:42:58,120 --> 00:42:59,680
I don't know if it's a
particularly great reason, but I

1054
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,840
imagine some head teachers who
are really confident in their

1055
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,120
school are thinking like, I want
to showcase this, might

1056
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,440
genuinely look at this and be
like, I want to provide better

1057
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,040
report cards.
I just want the parents in my

1058
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:09,360
area to see how good this school
is.

1059
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,000
And I think this reporting
system is better than the one

1060
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,160
I've got from four years ago.
And I just want to get this new

1061
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,680
one out so people can get lovely
paragraphs about my school and

1062
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,120
stuff.
I think people might be in that

1063
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:19,240
position.
I think it's probably quite

1064
00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:22,000
unlikely that they would choose
that over what you just said,

1065
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,880
but you never know.
I feel like this is, you know,

1066
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,360
correct if I'm wrong here, but
I, I've always felt like in the

1067
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,680
schools I've been in that we
kind of have a good idea where

1068
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,640
we're at as a school.
Like we kind of like we kind of

1069
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,440
know if we're on the cusp of
outstanding ish.

1070
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,280
We're good in these places.
Oh, OK.

1071
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,160
We're at a certain level where
we know that we, we won't get

1072
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,920
this judgement.
For example, I wonder if those

1073
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,200
schools who kind of feel like,
you know, we're, we're in a good

1074
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,440
place actually, maybe they want
to like, do you know what staff

1075
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,320
team, let's put a poll out.
Should we just get out of the

1076
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:54,160
way?
Should we volunteer?

1077
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:55,080
We're.
Going to do well out of this.

1078
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:56,240
Yeah.
And if the staff say yes,

1079
00:43:56,240 --> 00:43:58,480
they're like then go for it
100%.

1080
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,520
And I wouldn't, I wouldn't say
to someone definitely don't do

1081
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,280
it ever.
But from my point of view, I'd

1082
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:03,680
be waiting.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

1083
00:44:04,240 --> 00:44:06,400
Right, Hayden, do you want to
read the the last point here

1084
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,120
when I hooked him in the air?
Go on.

1085
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,520
So see if you can remember what
Dylan said earlier, because I

1086
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,120
can't.
I can't either, so that's just

1087
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:14,360
good.
I I can't sort it.

1088
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,040
You'll get it.
It's something about whisper

1089
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:21,040
goals.
Yeah, so #8 is Ofsted Explore an

1090
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:22,640
area?
Is that the title of it is

1091
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:24,400
called Explore an Area for those
that are just listening and

1092
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,800
watching to provide school
context.

1093
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,400
So the idea here is as well as
providing more contextual

1094
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,680
information on report cards
itself that we've discussed,

1095
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,080
Ofsted will introduce a new
service called Ofsted Explore an

1096
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,880
Area.
This will bring together data to

1097
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,120
show what education provision is
like in and around a local area,

1098
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:43,600
which I thought of.
This peaked my interest.

1099
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:45,320
Right move will have their ears
pricking up right now.

1100
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,360
They all love that.
Yeah, that's so interesting.

1101
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,480
Well, that's hilarious.
And explain how the provider's

1102
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,880
performance sits within its
local context.

1103
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,760
So you were making some point
earlier about this being

1104
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,160
important, about how in
different places, different

1105
00:44:58,160 --> 00:44:59,360
things matter.
Like if you're comparing

1106
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,640
attendance in one school to
another completely random other

1107
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,120
school in the country, it's like
the can we really compare those?

1108
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:06,480
And the answer is no, of course
we can't.

1109
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:08,800
And I feel like when I was
saying, oh, I think they're

1110
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:10,960
doing something about this.
I feel like this whole exploring

1111
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:15,320
area thing is a bit of a nod to
an agreement along the lines of,

1112
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,680
yeah, we know, we know that
context is important, obviously,

1113
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,040
yeah, different areas have
different outcomes for.

1114
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,520
A lot of grammar school in Seven
Oaks or some part of Kent where

1115
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,040
it's really affluent, it's
obviously going to have a

1116
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:29,920
completely different attendance
record.

1117
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,600
Yeah, to a different place, a
different local community, in a

1118
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:34,480
school where education isn't
seen as on a pedestrian.

1119
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:35,640
Exactly.
And we don't even need to go

1120
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:36,920
into the reasons why.
You just know that's true.

1121
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:38,360
Yeah, You know what I mean.
This is one of those things that

1122
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:39,360
I wasn't argue about it.
That's true.

1123
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,120
Yeah.
So I like that they're doing

1124
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:42,160
this.
I read a bit more.

1125
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,240
It says it will replace Ofsted's
area in site service.

1126
00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:47,640
They do currently have a service
in November and be published

1127
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:49,960
publicly.
OK, so will get further training

1128
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,440
on how to use data as a starting
point for understanding context.

1129
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,160
Good good stuff.
The watchdog has also started to

1130
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,640
develop a similar schools
comparison measure to help

1131
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,400
inspectors and schools
understand how schools compare

1132
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:07,200
with those in similar contexts.
Okay, so sorry, comparing in the

1133
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,320
same context.
So I immediately thought the

1134
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,000
same judgement and that's like
circular.

1135
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,400
No, no, OK, no.
So it's like this school has a

1136
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,560
very similar context and
background and area to this

1137
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,720
other school and that knowing
that genuinely might help you

1138
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,000
make comparisons and make better
judgements completely.

1139
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,160
It makes sense to train it off
to the inspectors in that and

1140
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,120
also provide it like it says
here to schools as well.

1141
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:26,000
Why wouldn't you?
So.

1142
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,200
This do you know, do you know
when people say how like, you

1143
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,520
know, the the extra detail is a
good thing, like when and for

1144
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,720
parents, it's great to have that
extra information etcetera.

1145
00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:36,040
Yeah, and, and there might be
people out there saying, well,

1146
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,760
teachers, you ask for this, you
asked for extra information and

1147
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:41,640
detail and nuance, etc.
No, this is what I was talking

1148
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,160
about, this kind of level of
extra detail and extra nuance of

1149
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,720
actually judging schools in a
proper way.

1150
00:46:47,720 --> 00:46:49,880
That's fair.
And still judging schools and

1151
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,320
still hunting on a pedestal.
This is what I was talking

1152
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:53,760
about.
And I'd say I have everything so

1153
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,720
far when they're changing the
word choice or they're adding

1154
00:46:56,720 --> 00:46:58,720
information for the sake of it,
but not actually changing the

1155
00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:00,640
problems.
Like we said about experience in

1156
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,800
the setting of a, of a, of an
inspector and then writing a

1157
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:05,120
paragraph that I'm like, OK,
cool.

1158
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:06,840
I don't, OK, great, It's extra
information.

1159
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,360
Well, you asked for it.
I know this, this is what I

1160
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,280
meant.
Like actual useful ability to

1161
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,960
compare settings of different
scores and different areas doing

1162
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,040
great things.
And the ultimate version of

1163
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,720
this, which still doesn't feel
like it's happened, is then to

1164
00:47:21,720 --> 00:47:25,320
say, cool, work together.
You've got similar setting.

1165
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,160
This was fantastic in this
score, instead of berating the

1166
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:29,800
rubbish one that I've said is
awful.

1167
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,200
Oh, this score was great.
Link up.

1168
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:33,160
Yeah.
Or how are you?

1169
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,560
Battling attendance well, we're
doing this and it's really

1170
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,640
working for our kids Love coming
nice.

1171
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,720
Let's try that yeah, that can be
Ofsted's roll and the reason

1172
00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:42,800
we're going to try that is
because Ofsted have helped us

1173
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,400
identify that you're in the
context bus rather than saying

1174
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,200
that school up the road's doing
better than you Yeah, so yeah,

1175
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:48,840
that's called the roads.
Completely different context, so

1176
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:50,600
you have a different catchment.
Everything's different about it.

1177
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:52,240
We can't compare.
Why are you doing that?

1178
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:53,040
Just because they're.
Close.

1179
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:57,400
And this is where I'm like, I
can see how amazing something

1180
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:58,880
like Ofsted could be for
education.

1181
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,240
I can see it.
I can see how this independent

1182
00:48:01,240 --> 00:48:05,120
body could drive standards so
much and really help schools.

1183
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:06,680
And I'm like, we're getting
there.

1184
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,080
Come on.
It's, it's within our grasp.

1185
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:11,320
And then they change a word to
exemplary and think they're

1186
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,400
doing something.
And I'm just like, Oh my God,

1187
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,320
why we, we are so close to this
here.

1188
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:21,520
And if the only goal we have is
to increase standards for our

1189
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:26,400
kids and make them better at
anything, right, If that's our

1190
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,840
only goal, that's, that should
be what Ofsted's forefront

1191
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,240
should be, not just what this
looks like for parents clicking,

1192
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,920
not just what could go on a
right move listing of a house

1193
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,440
because it's an property, it
should be.

1194
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,800
How can we improve that and
raise standards, which is our

1195
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,280
literal saying through a really
robust inspectorate system where

1196
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:49,280
we can compare things and then
link up and support.

1197
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,200
What's the point in all of this
is if at the end there isn't the

1198
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,680
support in place to improve and
drive standards?

1199
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,680
It's missing that link.
And and this is coming full

1200
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:00,760
circle to what I'm saying
earlier about how I'm frustrated

1201
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:02,680
by it because there's lots of
little things.

1202
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,080
We can sit and nod and agree or
sit and say a pointless.

1203
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,560
It's all almost futile.
If at the end of it, it's not

1204
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:10,200
cool.
See you later in four years.

1205
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:12,880
What?
No, at the end of it, it should

1206
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:17,920
be support, link together.
I care about the kids in my

1207
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,560
school the same as I care about
the kids up in Sunderland.

1208
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,760
And I'm not even exaggerating.
They might think, well, it's

1209
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:25,200
your job, you should care more
about your kids.

1210
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,160
Obviously I'll put more time
into the kids, maybe in my

1211
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:27,920
school.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1212
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,200
But I fundamentally the child
who happens to be in my class,

1213
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:32,680
because they live in the post
code that I live in.

1214
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,960
I care as much about them
becoming the best member of

1215
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,400
society they can and getting the
most out of them and enjoying

1216
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,240
school and getting the best
grades as I do from anyone in

1217
00:49:41,240 --> 00:49:44,320
this country.
So if it means that this system

1218
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,680
supports other places more than
my place because my place are

1219
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,160
getting on, that's a good change
for this system and that's what

1220
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:51,720
I want.
Yeah, because what you're saying

1221
00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:54,440
there about your view on all of
the kids being called that,

1222
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:56,800
should that like that's harder
for a teacher because you can

1223
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:58,600
you can get drawn into what is
these are my class in front of

1224
00:49:58,600 --> 00:49:59,400
me.
From the government's

1225
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,560
perspective, from the Ofsted
perspective, that should

1226
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,320
absolutely be their only goal.
They should absolutely be

1227
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:07,000
thinking we we're trying to
support and raise every single

1228
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,560
child and teacher and every
educational establishment in

1229
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,520
this country.
So it kind of brings it back

1230
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,200
down to because I think those
eight points are really

1231
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:17,920
interesting and and just for
clarity, I think overall they

1232
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:19,920
are positive changes.
By the way, those eight changes.

1233
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,080
I think overall, I think there
was a couple we sort of laughed

1234
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,000
about and like the, the name
changes suffer a bit

1235
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,040
inconsequential, but like there
were a few things there.

1236
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:27,760
I was like, OK, it's.
Clearly not a bad thing.

1237
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,400
Yeah, it's not a bad thing.
They've they've listened to some

1238
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,200
feedback here and actually the
step they've made is a step in

1239
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:34,000
the right direction.
You know, I'm very reluctant to

1240
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:35,720
say this is it's all great
because I don't think it is.

1241
00:50:35,720 --> 00:50:39,240
Because the big looming thing is
what we said literally right at

1242
00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:42,440
the start of this, which is
like, yeah, OK, this could be

1243
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:46,320
really good for parents.
But at the end of the day, all

1244
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:50,360
of this change started happening
really off of the back of Ofsted

1245
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:54,240
being slaughtered for being such
a negative anxiety inducing

1246
00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:57,880
process.
Do you think with all these

1247
00:50:57,880 --> 00:50:59,840
changes it let's even just
imagine the best possible

1248
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:01,720
outcome of all these things be
really positive?

1249
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,760
Do you think as a whole Ofsted
is going to be less anxiety

1250
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:07,600
inducing than it was three years
ago?

1251
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,960
No, why?
I just don't think that and I

1252
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:12,640
can sit here and give you my
personal opinions.

1253
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:14,360
I'll be regurgitating a lot of
what I just said.

1254
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,040
So what I'm going to do instead
is just is just read to you what

1255
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,000
people in more positions of
expertise have said about this.

1256
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,640
So, so a big push back from this
have been about a well-being

1257
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,680
report has been published as
well from Ofsted, from the, you

1258
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,000
know, the sad story about Ruth
Perry, the head who had a bad

1259
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,800
experience with Ofsted.
That's kind of feel like what

1260
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,320
what you know, it it it's a
shame it took that much to kind

1261
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:39,480
of kindle this, you know, this
spark.

1262
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:43,120
Yeah, Kindle, Kindle, Yeah.
To spark this kind of

1263
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:44,600
discussion.
I'm going to read this section

1264
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,120
out to you here.
So the changes have not been

1265
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:50,400
allied with the unions concerns
around this.

1266
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,760
Ofsted today published the
findings of an independent

1267
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,440
well-being impact assessment of
its new report cards.

1268
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,280
So alongside them introducing
the report cards, they had an

1269
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,280
independent body say OK cool,
can you just judge this for us?

1270
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:03,600
A good step.
Yeah, it makes sense.

1271
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,960
Of course they should.
Led by Sinead Mcbrady, CEO of

1272
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,360
mental health and well-being
charity Education support.

1273
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,960
So this is a an expert.
This isn't just me sat here

1274
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,520
going no I'm bloody Ofsted.
This is someone who spent months

1275
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:15,800
doing a report.
Yeah, fair.

1276
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,840
Staff well-being is key to the
Ofsted reforms which were

1277
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:20,840
triggered by the death of
headteacher Ruth.

1278
00:52:21,720 --> 00:52:25,800
But the well-being report found
that the new report cards would

1279
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:29,400
actually increase stress and
workload for school staff,

1280
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:33,080
despite the sector already being
among the top 3 industries with

1281
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:35,000
high levels of work related ill
health.

1282
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:39,240
Paul Whiteman, general secretary
of school leaders union NAHT,

1283
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:43,520
said the frankly damning report
shows new inspections do not

1284
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,800
reduce pressures on leaders,
repeating calls for the return

1285
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:50,560
of inspections to be delayed.
Ofsted's plan to push ahead

1286
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:55,040
regardless, quote, speaks of an
inspectorate that has completely

1287
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,240
lost the trust of the profession
that has failed to properly

1288
00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:01,080
listen to teachers and leaders,
he added.

1289
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,280
The watchdog said it has taken
well-being concerns extremely

1290
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:08,240
seriously and nothing in its
plans should add to a provider's

1291
00:53:08,240 --> 00:53:14,720
workload.
Can you just say that after the

1292
00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:17,720
independent report that you
commissioned and I see this all

1293
00:53:17,720 --> 00:53:19,600
time government, you know,
they'll Commission an

1294
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,200
independent report.
Yeah, offset of commissioning an

1295
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,400
independent report.
And when it's said the

1296
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,240
independent report has said
something that doesn't quite

1297
00:53:26,240 --> 00:53:27,760
align with them, they've just
gone.

1298
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:29,800
Yeah, I don't agree.
Yeah, but when it does say

1299
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:31,760
something aligns with them, it's
the most important document in

1300
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:32,560
the world.
Yeah, yeah.

1301
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,520
Like, like if an independent
report from ACEO of mental

1302
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:39,080
health and well-being charity
that's literally 2 of education

1303
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,800
has looked at all this and said,
well, you know what?

1304
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,720
If anything, it's going to
increase anxiety on staff

1305
00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:49,560
because of XYZ.
You have to rethink what you're

1306
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:53,280
doing or implement other things
that are going to reduce it.

1307
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:57,080
Particularly if I'll say it
again, it was sparked by

1308
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,840
something like the death of Ruth
Perry, which ultimately it kind

1309
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:01,440
of what was the catalyst for
this whole thing.

1310
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,640
I'm like if, if, if this whole
thing, if there's all this

1311
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:08,600
reform was was sparked by
parents get banning together and

1312
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:10,640
saying we just want a better
reporting system.

1313
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,600
I'd almost be like if that, if
that was the primary motive,

1314
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:15,920
that's definitely what they're
serving.

1315
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:17,160
I'm not.
I think, I think that's what

1316
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:18,480
they're doing.
They're, they're, I think they

1317
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:21,160
are improving the service that
the parents are getting through

1318
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:22,760
Ofsted.
And that's part of what officers

1319
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,040
should do.
Exactly, and I do not disagree

1320
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:28,200
with that, but when the
fundamental start of this was

1321
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,480
about like the anxiety and
pressure it puts on schools to.

1322
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,760
To the leaders.
Particularly, yeah, exactly.

1323
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,760
It is particularly leaders and
but to ignore that bit and be

1324
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,280
like, I don't think it will
Yeah.

1325
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:41,800
So, well, not only there's,
there's almost 2 layers to this,

1326
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:46,120
I'm like, it's, it's kind of bad
to not make any improvement.

1327
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,640
It's particularly bad to make it
worse, right.

1328
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,200
And if the independent body is
coming out and saying, I think

1329
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,720
this might actually be worse in
terms of anger, the anxiety and

1330
00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:56,520
pressure it puts on schools For
these reasons.

1331
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:58,120
And, and I'm not going to go
into them, but there is like a

1332
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:01,400
whole, a whole document on the
well-being report.

1333
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,280
Yeah, the well-being report and
even schools, we, you know,

1334
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:05,560
keeping these out, they've done
a really nice separate article

1335
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:06,680
that just goes through all that
as well.

1336
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:09,800
Go and read it.
I'm like, if they've said that

1337
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,120
you probably should take it
seriously, but it then it just

1338
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:14,440
leads me to the question and I
genuinely don't know the answer

1339
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:16,440
to this right now in my head.
And maybe we can hash it out

1340
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,240
between us, but what is the
alternative?

1341
00:55:19,240 --> 00:55:21,440
Like what?
What does everyone want?

1342
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,640
Because I can imagine Ofsted as
sort of being like, we need to

1343
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:26,200
keep schools accountable.
We've tried to think of a

1344
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:27,960
different way of doing it.
We've scrapped the overall

1345
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,160
judgements because they were
clearly one of the worst things.

1346
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,360
Like we do need to keep schools
accountable.

1347
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:34,760
What do you want from us?
Yeah, yeah, completely.

1348
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,440
And I think that's something we
have to all work together to to

1349
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:39,560
work towards.
I think when.

1350
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,360
So if you look at what's
actually changed, This is why I

1351
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,080
push back a little bit when in
my head, I do push back a bit

1352
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:49,040
when you say I think these are
positive things.

1353
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,920
I'm like, OK, for what they are,
maybe for, for serving a

1354
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:54,840
different purpose, maybe they're
positive things.

1355
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:57,920
But from my, my point of view,
I'm looking at this very much

1356
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,160
from a school's lens, OK.
This increases the the, the

1357
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,280
number of categories that the
school's being judged on.

1358
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,280
It adds extra detail for every
single category because there's

1359
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,160
going to be a paragraph written
in detail about it.

1360
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:13,600
Yeah, I can't see assist.
I can't see this being rolled

1361
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,480
out in schools where that
doesn't increase workload, that

1362
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:18,440
doesn't increase anxiety, that
doesn't increase worry.

1363
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:20,640
Because now instead of worrying
about four things, you're

1364
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:22,600
worrying about 6 things Now
instead.

1365
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,440
Instead of, you know, like I
said earlier, imagine your

1366
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,800
teachings bad.
Oh, God, the teachings got to be

1367
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:28,440
really good.
Teach it.

1368
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:30,360
The staff are going to get it in
the neck, potentially from

1369
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:31,760
leaders.
Oh, leadership's bad.

1370
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:33,960
I'm already stressed.
I'm a leader, My goodness me.

1371
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:35,680
And now I'm being told I'm still
awful.

1372
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:40,240
Every single part of why leaders
were feeling anxious before is

1373
00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:44,760
still in this current system and
being exacerbated because you're

1374
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:47,320
still being judged individually
at the end of the day on these

1375
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:51,040
high stakes ways of, of, of
coming in and saying no, no, no,

1376
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,560
no.
It's, it's causing concern or

1377
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:57,320
urgent improvement or whatever
it might be, that's going to

1378
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,080
have the same impact because
it's still just as high stakes.

1379
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:03,840
And if things go wrong, until we
fix what happens after

1380
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:06,800
inspections, I don't see how
this is going to change anything

1381
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:08,520
whatsoever.
If a school's in urgent

1382
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:10,960
measures, an urgent, if the same
thing happens as before, it's

1383
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,960
just called something different.
We need to really step up our

1384
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:17,120
actual support for schools and
we need to really step up the

1385
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,840
the point of Ofsted and have
fundamental changes as to what

1386
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,320
they literally do.
And if if their forefront of

1387
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:28,000
their mind becomes support and
help instead of judgement and

1388
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:31,360
pointing fingers, that's the
change I want to see.

1389
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:34,080
Whereas what I see here is it's
still judging, it's still

1390
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,520
pointing fingers.
It's just got a new fancy word

1391
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,080
at the front.
It's just got a nice little

1392
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,680
Nandos card instead, at the end
of it, it's it's actually, you

1393
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:42,720
know, we're going to, we're
going to judge and point fingers

1394
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,240
still, but we'll tell you why.
We'll write a little paragraph

1395
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:47,680
at the end saying why it's so
bad or why it's awful.

1396
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:51,400
Look, I think it's I think
leadership is such a tricky job.

1397
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,080
I think it's so hard and and
amazing leaders out there

1398
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:56,400
genuinely inspire me.
And it's very easy for us to sit

1399
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:58,680
here and be like, yeah, that's
awful because you're exploiting

1400
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:00,680
your staff and talk about all
the toxic stories of things.

1401
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:05,560
I do think about amazing leaders
must look at this and go, yeah,

1402
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,440
it's just actually increased my
workload.

1403
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:10,920
It's just made me worry about
more things.

1404
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:13,840
It's just giving something else
an extra chance to go wrong.

1405
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:16,880
And fundamentally, no matter
what you think about Ofsted or

1406
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:20,000
what they should do, that's
clearly to me a bad change.

1407
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:21,920
Yeah, they shouldn't be left
feeling like that.

1408
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:24,520
I couldn't agree more.
And I, and I do often think when

1409
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,680
we're in this context, I do
think of Ruth Perry and I do

1410
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:31,000
think of all of the other head
teachers and leaders that have

1411
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:34,040
been, have been, have been left
in a horrible way, in all

1412
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:37,000
honesty, like feeling terrible
and anxious and awful about

1413
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,040
upcoming Ofsted inspection or a
previous one.

1414
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:42,440
And I do agree, I think if
they've Ofsted just shift their

1415
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:47,200
lens a bit to think first, like
how could, how could we still

1416
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:50,440
deliver this school feedback
that they need because they have

1417
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,680
to be accountable.
Like even you said, oh, no, the

1418
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:55,080
teaching's bad.
I'm gonna worry about that now.

1419
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:57,000
I'm sort of like the other part
means like, yeah, you know, if

1420
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:58,400
the teaching's bad, they need to
be told sure.

1421
00:58:58,480 --> 00:58:59,520
That's the point of
accountability.

1422
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:01,680
Yeah, teaching's bad.
It's never not, it's never gonna

1423
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:03,600
be nice to told that you're
doing something bad for sure.

1424
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,560
But you've got to be told it so.
Yeah, but but there's a but it

1425
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:08,000
can be supportive.
Exactly.

1426
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:09,600
It can be a longer journey.
Exactly.

1427
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:11,800
Rather than every four years
having two days.

1428
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:13,880
Yeah, they even said themselves.
Just going back to it.

1429
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:15,240
Sorry.
They even said themselves on the

1430
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:18,280
top level, you can only get the
top level if it's sustained over

1431
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:19,760
time.
And I'm like, I'm not being

1432
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:21,160
that's how you judge a school
anyway.

1433
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,800
It's sustained over time.
You can't possibly do a snapshot

1434
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,000
judgement of a school in just a
2 day visit.

1435
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:30,280
You can't do it.
You are assuming a lot and you

1436
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:32,440
are taking on face value what
people say a lot.

1437
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:35,720
And that makes it really high
stakes and that makes it a bad

1438
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:38,240
system that's going to be full
of anxiety inducing parts.

1439
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:41,520
Because if you as a leader
think, oh gosh, my maths lead

1440
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:44,040
won't get across all these
things we do in that 10 minute

1441
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:46,360
chunk of time, they have to get
across all these things we do.

1442
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:48,160
It doesn't matter if we do them
or not.

1443
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:51,960
What matters is if in that
snapshot, the inspector thinks

1444
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:54,880
we do them and that's why the
system's flawed and this doesn't

1445
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:56,600
fix that.
This doesn't change that

1446
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:58,640
whatsoever.
So that's going to continue to

1447
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:01,360
be anxiety inducing for leaders
with more points that could

1448
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:04,880
possibly go wrong.
So until it changes to a long

1449
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:07,920
term sustained, yes,
accountability, but also

1450
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,920
support, I think have to come in
equal measure because what's the

1451
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:12,640
point in being accountable if
you're not helping them get

1452
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:14,640
there?
It's a circle to me.

1453
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:17,920
And I think that's where this
can be fundamentally fixed.

1454
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:19,120
And we have to go from the
ground up.

1455
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:22,120
This is patchwork.
This is like you, you know, OK,

1456
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:23,080
cool.
Yeah, we can make it great for

1457
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:25,080
parents and right move.
Cool.

1458
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:27,080
But the system's the same.
It's broken.

1459
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:29,560
It doesn't actually
fundamentally do what it's set

1460
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:31,600
out to do.
And it's going to continue to be

1461
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:33,040
anxiety.
Induced raising standards in

1462
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:35,760
schools.
No, causing anxiety and not

1463
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:39,560
helping it.
It needs a rethink, fundamental

1464
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:41,760
rethink.
And again, this is not that.

1465
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:43,720
It's just, it's just the same
thing.

1466
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:46,320
Different words, different
different scale.

1467
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:49,440
Same thing I think they've
they've done they've made some

1468
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:50,960
changes.
Cool crack on.

1469
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:52,440
Leave that those changes are
done now.

1470
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:52,960
Lovely.
Yeah.

1471
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:54,840
Maybe it's better for parents.
I mean, the next step for

1472
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:57,280
Ofsted, because they're
obviously listening is, is to do

1473
01:00:57,280 --> 01:00:58,160
it.
I think you've nailed it on the

1474
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:00,560
head by the way.
I, I, I couldn't put it into

1475
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:02,040
better words.
I'll never tell you that again.

1476
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:06,920
But the the next step for Ofsted
then, in my opinion is working

1477
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:11,000
on that part is working on OK,
we are supposed to be

1478
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:12,480
transforming schools for the
better.

1479
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:14,520
What are we now going to put in
place?

1480
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:17,880
What policies you look, we've
added extra inspectors to your

1481
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:19,480
to your inspections.
Great, cool.

1482
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,920
What are you going to do on the
bigger level now fundamentally

1483
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:25,360
to make the inspection a more a
positive process?

1484
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:28,320
And again, it's outside the box.
Isn't like we said before,

1485
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:30,400
they've just taken the box and
like moved it around a bit, just

1486
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:32,880
relabeled it.
Think outside the box, Ofsted,

1487
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,320
come on, think of some new
strategies and new things.

1488
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:40,720
If it's about sustaining impact,
like like Dylan mentioned, OK,

1489
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:41,640
what are you going to do for
that?

1490
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:43,720
Because you're coming every four
years, tackle that problem, then

1491
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:45,640
that's your next step.
Tackle those problems because

1492
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:47,880
you're not tackling them yet.
And it's got to be a better

1493
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:49,800
collaborative process.
And it can be.

1494
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:52,120
I'm sure there's plenty of
experts out there who, if you

1495
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:54,120
put them in a room for a week,
they could probably think of

1496
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:56,680
some really, really, really good
ways to do that.

1497
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:58,680
But you've got to then actually
try and implement them.

1498
01:01:58,680 --> 01:01:59,560
This is all great.
Cool.

1499
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:01,560
Thank you for making some
changes and listening to us a

1500
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:03,640
little bit on some things come
up.

1501
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:04,800
You're missing the fundamentals
here.

1502
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:07,720
Completely agree and one thing
Oster could do, get all their

1503
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:10,560
inspectors when they're training
to give us a review on Spotify.

1504
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:14,080
I was really.
You're really.

1505
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:15,640
Intent me listening.
They give us a review and might

1506
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:17,840
have a platform that the
listeners are on right now.

1507
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:20,520
It really helps us.
You can share this and I think

1508
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:23,160
honestly this is 1 episode where
I will say to you, please do

1509
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:26,200
share this episode with anyone
who works in a school because

1510
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:28,720
they can get a real insight into
what's changing with Ofsted and

1511
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:31,000
and really, you know, give us a
review as well.

1512
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:33,080
Yeah, I want to know your
thoughts about because one of

1513
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:35,280
those things where me and Dylan
will say we'll talk about it,

1514
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:37,520
but we'll often form more
opinions after.

1515
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:38,760
We'll talk more after it and
stuff.

1516
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:40,720
No, I form my.
Dylan, obviously, he knows

1517
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:42,600
everything, but other people
will write in and say, oh, do

1518
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:43,480
you think about this?
Yeah.

1519
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:45,840
That's such an interesting way
to think about one of these

1520
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:47,000
things.
Please get in touch.

1521
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:48,200
We love it.
We love hearing from you guys.

1522
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:50,200
Absolutely, guys, thank you so
much for this thing.

1523
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:52,040
We'll see you again next time
for another episode.

1524
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:52,920
Yeah, see you then.