Ep 79: Is Becoming A Middle Leader In School Ever Worth It?

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Welcome back to another episode
of Teach Sleep.

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Repeat.
My name is Hayden.

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Never do that again.
Come on, my name is Hayden.

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My name is Dylan.
Come on, My name is Dylan.

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Hey, there we go.
What?

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Are you doing?
I don't know, I thought it

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started differently.
Do you want to do your bit

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anyway even though everyone
knows?

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Never do that again now.
OK.

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Hello, everyone.
What about an episode of

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Teaching?
My name is Dylan.

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I've got to say it.
OK.

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It doesn't feel like the start
of an episode.

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No, unless I say it.
Hayden, are you a primary school

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teacher?
Yes.

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Me too.
Yeah.

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So, new listeners.
This thing that.

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We have two primary school
teachers.

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Old listeners.
You're already thinking, what

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are they all about?
Eh?

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We know that people.
How are you?

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Yeah, I'm all right.
I'm all right.

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That sounded like a tinge of you
know you weren't.

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To be honest with you, I am.
I am generally.

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All right.
OK.

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But I have just had a bath
installed.

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Right.
Right.

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So sorry, What?
I have more context, I guess.

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We're doing our bathroom.
We've only got 1 bathroom.

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So it's been a nightmare.
Anyone that's ever had that

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bathroom replaced and you've got
1 bathroom. 1 bathroom. 1

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bathroom.
Yeah, I know you've got about

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15.
I won't get over it. 1 bathroom

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nightmare.
Have to wash other people's

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houses or just not wash or just
not wash for months.

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Anyway, finally got the bath
installed yesterday.

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Stood in it today, Cracked.
It's leaking.

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Doesn't work.
Had one bath.

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So less than 24 hours.
Yeah.

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So yeah, glad to be here.
I did actually get a tour of

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your bathroom before this
episode.

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I like you've gone for the half
complete rustic look.

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Yeah, yeah, it's kind of 1/2
complete broken rustic look.

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Sure, sure, sure.
Sure.

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So the the walls just covered in
plaster, that's half done.

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And also bath.
Yeah.

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Water now.
Yeah.

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Yeah.
Water.

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Yeah.
That's the best kind of.

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It was leaking.
Yeah.

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So yeah.
You know, I'm, I'm couldn't be

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more positive.
Really, really, really in a good

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place.
How about you?

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I'm actually really good.
Oh, good.

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Yeah, I look at a lie.
I'm feeling fit.

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I'm feeling fine.
I'm ready.

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I feel really ill this week.
Feeling fit from the hobble

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along leg that walked into this
room 10 minutes ago.

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Yeah, I had physio this morning.
It's becoming a bit of a

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routine, I suppose.
Every other Friday I'm having

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physio in the morning, so that's
before we record for anyone.

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We'll peek behind the curtain.
We don't record this on the

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Monday that it gets really easy.
That would be, that wouldn't be

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weird.
I'm getting physio and he

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absolutely battered me this
morning.

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Really.
Yeah.

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Anyone who's had physio did.
You do any physio?

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Yeah, it was before I got in the
door.

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I hate that face.
But anyone who said physio knows

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it's such a weird feeling.
It's like, you know, it's like

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it's beneficial for you.
But in the moment, Oh my God, it

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hurts so much.
It's just pain.

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And you're just there like, I
hope it's going to help me.

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And he strapped my foot up.
And yeah, you don't watch

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sports.
You might not know anyone

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watches sport.
You might have seen before this

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blue tape that he's athletes
have.

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And I've always, always thought
to myself, what is tape doing to

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help you?
Like, honestly, just like this

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blue tape across the back.
And I'm just like that.

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Just like the kids put tape on
each other's back as a joke.

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It doesn't, you know, help their
back anything really.

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He put tape on my foot and he's
like, this should feel quite

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nice actually, because it's
basically going to give you some

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more support on your arch of
your foot.

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And I was like, OK, yeah, you
know, sure.

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I'm going to trust you because
you're a professional.

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But it is just a bit.
Isn't it?

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But the tape on my foot and I
was just like, Oh my God, I can

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feel that that tape is
supporting my entire foot now

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and like just, it just knocks it
like 2° where it should be.

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Oh, I can.
Placebo.

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No, I don't.
Think something that really is.

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No, I could pull your Yeah,
it's.

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I can feel the pull.
Yeah.

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I can feel my leg becoming more,
my foot rather becoming more

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straight.
Anyway, he absolutely batter me.

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My legs really hurting right
now, but that's par for the

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course, I hope.
But you're good.

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Yeah.
Apart from that, you're good.

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I'm good as well.
I'm I am playing it up a bit

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really.
I'm good as well.

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The bath was a bit annoying, but
you'll be fixed.

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It's fine.
But I'm also good.

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I'm feeling positive.
Yeah, you got something to back

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that up, or you just just scared
that you were too negative?

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No, not really.
I'll.

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Tell you what, though, if I just
say I'm good, yeah, I'm good.

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I feel all right, really.
Come on, it's just a bath.

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I'll get over it, guys.
I'll get over it, all right?

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For God's sake, just stop
mentioning it, all right?

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Come on, I've got on your notes
here.

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All you've put for your catch up
is how to cheer me up.

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So what?
So you are.

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My little story then for the
week is anything I could think

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of because, you know, I'm not as
obviously as exciting as you.

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So this week I was having a bit
of a laugh with my maths class,

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as I always do, as as is the
start of many of my stories on

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this podcast.
Having a laugh.

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Don't.
Know maths?

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Just have a good time.
We just have a good old time,

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the old blow dart maths.
Remember that the old listeners

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know that one anyway, so I was
talking, I was going through

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vocab with them and and I was
going through just vocab for the

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four operations and I was just
looking at sounds like, come on,

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do we know what these all mean?
And I said, right, here's my

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favourite one difference and
we're looking at the word

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difference.
That's my favourite word in

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maths.
I love this word, but I feel

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like kids always struggle with
it's under with understanding

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what it means and what it and
how you actually find it.

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So we were exploring that And
then as it kind of went on, I

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sort of was joking around them
saying to them, did you?

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If I'm ever if I'm ever look a
bit down, guys just say to me

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isn't different such a cool
thing in maths and that will

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really cheer me up.
So that was just our little

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joke.
But then it very quickly moved

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on to other things that will
also cheer me up.

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And we decided that them telling
me that you stink will cheer me

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up.
So yesterday when I asked,

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playing around with and
pretending and they were like,

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Miss Stevens doesn't doesn't Mr.
Price really smell bad?

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And I was like, oh, thank you,
I'm in such a better mood now.

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He does.
Thank you.

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That is so nice.
And someone else like, isn't

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difference the coolest thing?
And I was like, yes, it is,

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isn't it?
Wow, I'm in such a good mood

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now.
But as always, yeah, you know it

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did.
It did descend into your at your

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expense.
Sure, that's fine.

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So I just.
Want the common denominator?

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That's absolutely fine, but the
only question I have is did they

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actually know what the
difference was?

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No Of.
Course, yeah.

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No, they're good.
They were good.

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Yeah.
No, they think it's something to

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do with you.
Smelling.

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Yeah, Fair enough.
The difference between Mr

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Stevens and Mr. Price.
Mr. Price actually taught us

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things.
Brilliant.

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OK.
Smell, yes.

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So that was my week.
I'm going to I'm going to laugh

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with the kids.
We did some learning somewhere.

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At some point, somewhere, at
some point I think I think,

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yeah, I did some art this week
and I'm just going to, you know,

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bang this drum again that it's
these types of lessons that I

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think primary school is made
for.

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I loved it.
I loved it.

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And you know what?
It's because the kids loved it.

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We did some art.
It was still, you know, within

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the art curriculum.
We still talked about key vocab

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like form and composition and
shading, do some cross hatching

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and the different mediums that
we can draw in and all this kind

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of stuff.
Looking at different artists and

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the still life paintings they
drew and the drawings they did.

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And it was one of the moments in
lesson where I was just like,

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this is what kids should be
doing in school, not SAT filling

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in gaps in a paragraph out of a
word bank you've given them

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after you just told them about
King Henry the 7th and the War

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of the Roses.
No, it should just be drawing

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stuff that's interesting to
them.

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Failing at drawing, being bad at
drawing, getting over the fact

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they're bad at drawing because
it doesn't matter, trying again

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in a different way, trying to
see what they could improve,

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getting better, still being bad.
And that's fine.

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You could finish a lot of them
finished that lesson and they

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were bad and the drawings were
awful.

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And you told them, but I said to
them, kids, that's not good

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enough.
No, they, they, they just

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learned that it's, it's art,
it's drawing, it's been

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expressive, it's trying to
improve in certain ways.

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And I just thought, I wish every
day was like this where we could

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just be more flexible and just
draw.

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Because I know for a fact coming
up I've got to fit in that whole

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history curriculum, geography
curriculum.

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We're just crammed with stuff,
stripping it back, so important,

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but just doing the activities
that the children enjoy when you

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say to the things.
They actually like to do.

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Yeah, exactly what you say to
them.

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We're doing art this week.
They're like.

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Yes.
Oh.

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My God yes, because we only get
to do art like one week every

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time I'm.
Going to start with a vocabulary

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task.
It's like, how about we just do

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the art and whilst we're doing
it, I say by the way kids, we're

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constructing the form here of
this drawing.

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We're getting the.
Yeah, shout out Mr. Price, I'm

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I'm trying to build.
We're doing that.

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We're doing it.
I'm trying to do a serious

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point, Hayden.
We're doing it 2D.

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We make it look 3D, blah, blah,
blah.

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And yeah, I just thought it was
really cool.

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I loved it and it was one of the
moments where I loved the

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afternoon and because I'd loved
the afternoon so much, I had

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this pressure and you know this
pressure where sometimes you

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felt you've got to do 2 lessons
in the afternoon and it's just

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like, OK, firstly that is just
so hard to do at the level we

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need to do it.
But secondly, the kids just are

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so engaged in one thing, it's so
hard for them after a day of

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working incredibly tricky, like
tricky stuff, maths and English

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all morning to then do a lesson
to then switch again to another

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core.
And I had a choice.

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Basically we had to, we could
have done an RE lesson and it

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would have been like 25 minutes,
would have just done a bit of

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input, a bit of a chat.
Would it be a full lesson?

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But we could have just tried to
pivoted to do that.

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Yeah.
I just thought, no, I'm not

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going to do it.
I'm going to read a book.

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So we got a book.
I got five books out from my

230
00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,840
cupboard.
My books that I've got that

231
00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,240
straight away is cool for them.
Always Mr Bryce's books.

232
00:08:56,680 --> 00:08:59,320
We did a vote, one got knocked
out, then another vote, one got

233
00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,040
knocked out.
We ended up with this book.

234
00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:02,880
I think it's called something
like How to Be More Hedgehog.

235
00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,320
I forgot the author's called.
The kids really want to hear

236
00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:06,280
about it.
It's about this girl of a

237
00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:07,800
stammer.
Anyway, we read it.

238
00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,080
We read the first chapter like
15 minutes, The kids were

239
00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,320
hooked, The kids were staring
and I was like that.

240
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,000
That is reading for pleasure.
That is what primary school is

241
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,000
all about.
And if as teachers we feel

242
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,040
pressured that Oh my God, I've
got to get something in there RA

243
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,000
book about because I've got to
do this whole curriculum and

244
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:25,800
I've got to go.
I can't do that.

245
00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,360
I've got to push reading out.
That's the number one thing.

246
00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:30,920
Reading with your kids, it made
me realise it.

247
00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:32,360
You got to do it.
You got to start reading.

248
00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,640
You have 20 minutes the end of
the day to read with your kids.

249
00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,240
Everything else can form as of
that.

250
00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,760
And I think what I've done wrong
in the last few years is make

251
00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:42,920
reading like not even on my list
of priorities in the afternoon

252
00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,240
and I want to make it top.
And if I don't get everything

253
00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,720
done in my curriculum, it's
because I was reading with the

254
00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,360
kids and as a teacher, someone's
going to moan at me for that.

255
00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,320
I'll just argue it and say I
wanted to read for my children.

256
00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:54,200
That's the problem though, isn't
it?

257
00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:55,400
Because they are going to moan
at that.

258
00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,880
Yeah, like you are, you are
doing the wrong thing by the

259
00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,400
standards of the schools and
educational.

260
00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:02,800
You're doing the right thing in
terms of what kids actually

261
00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:04,160
need.
Like fundamentally, if you strip

262
00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,280
it completely back away from the
curriculum and government,

263
00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,200
everything, it's like, yeah, of
course they just need to be

264
00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,480
engaged by books, right?
Well, the problem is even with

265
00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:12,040
that the guidance says you
should do that.

266
00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,080
The statutory guidance from the
government says you should do

267
00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:15,400
that.
The problem is the statutory

268
00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,680
guidance doesn't add up to no
exactly fitting.

269
00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,520
Guidance also says do these
other 55 things and you have one

270
00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,000
hour to do it.
So I'm just prioritising

271
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,600
reading.
I'm like, I'm just going to do

272
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,120
that and and that that's not
going to be a thing that falls

273
00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:31,520
off and if I don't quite finish
a lesson, sorry, and we'll see

274
00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:33,080
what goes.
On it's ballsy, you know, I

275
00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,840
just, I don't know.
Well a similar thing with a

276
00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,600
group I'm running at the minute.
Gifted and talented group now.

277
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,120
Every single part of your fibre,
if you work in a school, is

278
00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:47,560
looking at data, trying to move
children who are maybe in not

279
00:10:47,560 --> 00:10:49,280
their age expected up until
their age.

280
00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:50,760
Expected children that are
behind.

281
00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,000
Children that are behind
children that may be a pupil

282
00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:54,520
premium.
That's what groups are for.

283
00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,440
Children who don't quite
understand something, you know,

284
00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:01,040
every gut instinct in a school
is to just target those kids and

285
00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,960
move them up a band.
And what happens because of that

286
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,560
is over the last years, many,
many years in schools and many

287
00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:10,760
different schools, your children
at the top are completely

288
00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,240
forgotten, completely forgotten.
So if they're really good at

289
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,240
maths, for example, they're
already achieving greater depth,

290
00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,520
they're fantastic at maths.
They don't need intervention.

291
00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,400
They're not getting any extra
adult support or help.

292
00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:25,520
They're kind of just floating
through the curriculum over the

293
00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:27,200
year.
You kind of know a lot of them.

294
00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,600
If they sat the test halfway
through year 4 or Year 5 or

295
00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,120
wherever they are in year 6
doing their SAT's, they pass.

296
00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,280
Not going to affect school data.
The schools in general can have

297
00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,560
this kind of horrible like
middle ground off with the best

298
00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:42,680
intentions, trying to help kids,
just forget a whole bunch of the

299
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,120
cohort.
And I thought, I've got a group,

300
00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:47,600
I can choose what I'm doing for
this group.

301
00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,080
For Term 1 specifically, before
we get any data and stuff, I'm

302
00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:52,880
going to do a gifted and
talented group.

303
00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,000
And I picked six children from
the year group who actually

304
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,400
smashed their assessments last
year who really like maths,

305
00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,080
talked to their teachers and
they're really involved in it.

306
00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:01,760
And I'm doing a gifted and
talented group.

307
00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,520
I've done 2 sessions.
Yeah, I've already had feedback.

308
00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:07,440
Feedback from 2 parents, which
never happens when you do

309
00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:08,880
groups.
No feedback from 2 parents

310
00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:10,720
saying how much their kids love
to this group.

311
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,800
And they were so engaged.
One of them emailed our deputy

312
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:15,840
head to say, is there anything
else you can have?

313
00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:17,760
She loved it so much.
Do I need to support her?

314
00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,040
Oh my God, she loves this group.
She never done anything like it

315
00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:24,560
before.
And I was just like, OK, there

316
00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:26,720
you go.
If if ever anyone wants to argue

317
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,240
with me and say no, no, no, we
need to be doing the same things

318
00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,040
because we actually know in the
long term we might get this data

319
00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:33,400
up to this point.
And it's really important.

320
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,320
No going to carry on doing this
group because these kids are

321
00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,040
getting so much out of it.
They're having mass enriched for

322
00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:41,160
them.
They're interested.

323
00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:42,800
We're doing stuff not even on
the curriculum.

324
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,280
We're investigating number
sequences, we're getting the

325
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:46,840
blocks out.
We did triangle numbers, we did

326
00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,040
Fibonacci.
They found out the rules

327
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,520
themselves in a way where I
could kind of mould it for them.

328
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:53,720
But they're doing the
investigating, they're making up

329
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,720
the rules, we're doing algebra,
but with emojis and things like

330
00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:58,080
that.
They're working out that a

331
00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,440
symbol can mean a number, and
then they're working out the

332
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,880
order of operations as well.
As we go along, they're just

333
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:04,480
picking all this stuff up
naturally because they're so

334
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,520
inquisitive.
It's so much learning going on.

335
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,840
And in doing this group I
realised how much of my job is

336
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,280
firefighting and behaviour
management and staying on top of

337
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,920
things.
In this group, it was pure

338
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,200
learning, pure engagement.
And I know part of our job is

339
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,560
always going to be behaviour
management, but my God, I fell

340
00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:22,440
back in love with teaching just
from doing half an hour.

341
00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:26,760
It's like this is amazing.
But is that a better use of time

342
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,520
really?
Yeah, Yeah, I think it is.

343
00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:32,120
From a non selfish.
Point of view, I think it's as

344
00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,840
good A use of time.
It's as good A use of time.

345
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,880
If an individual child needs
help achieving something in

346
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:44,960
maths, yeah, I think that help
and that need can be different

347
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:49,440
per child.
But to say to a .1 is more

348
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:51,560
important constantly that the
other one should always be

349
00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:53,640
forgotten.
I think that's wrong.

350
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,600
I think you can have priorities.
Yeah, I was going to say I'm

351
00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,480
struggling with it a little bit
because I think it's really cool

352
00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,640
and I think I'd enjoy it as
well, but I'm worried that it's

353
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,240
because you enjoy it more and
the kids enjoy it and the kids

354
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:04,800
really.
Enjoy it the.

355
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:06,880
Kids love it.
I don't know, but maybe I'm

356
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,520
just.
I'm in that world, you know,

357
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,360
I've spent ten years in this
world of if we have that little

358
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,760
bit of extra time, I'll
prioritise the kids that can't

359
00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,480
even reach the like the average
level yet.

360
00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:18,920
So, so for those kids get
prioritised anyway and a

361
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,200
prioritise is different to not
doing anything at all with the

362
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,240
other children.
So I still think those children

363
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,560
should get the groups they need
and those children are going to

364
00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:26,360
get more time.
What?

365
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:27,800
Are they going to get the groups
if you're not doing it?

366
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:28,640
Yeah.
Because the groups are still

367
00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,360
going on.
I've got, I've got four groups

368
00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,240
at the minute, right?
Three of them are children who

369
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,360
need help getting to a level and
this group is an extra 1 where I

370
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,160
could have done more children
who need help getting to a

371
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,560
certain level or around age
expected to boost them.

372
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,400
But I said now I'm going to do
this group instead.

373
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,040
My point is, we shouldn't forget
all.

374
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,600
The yeah, no, I agree with that.
Because of because of, because

375
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,040
of that.
And I think that just because

376
00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,160
something's not necessarily
measurable on an end of year

377
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,120
assessment that we've decided
there's a way to grade kids

378
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,960
halfway through a key stage.
I don't necessarily think that

379
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,960
automatically means it's bad.
Like how do you measure it?

380
00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,120
Well, do you know what those
emails from parents have kids

381
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,880
going home buzzing about maths.
Yeah, that's, that's all the

382
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:07,840
metric I need to say that that
group's worth doing.

383
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,600
Yeah.
And I just think you know as.

384
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,520
Teaching is not about feeling
good then, it's about data.

385
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:15,480
Yeah, exactly.
And that is the problem.

386
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:16,840
And that's what we're rooted in,
isn't it?

387
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:18,440
Yeah, and it because it's true.
Yeah.

388
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,120
Like it is true.
Like it's not even a it's not

389
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:21,720
even a point to argue really, is
it is.

390
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,360
Teaching has become about data.
That's all it's about.

391
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,800
There's nothing else matters.
Nothing else matters in the eyes

392
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,840
of anything measurable in in
education now other than data

393
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,120
that the government can get
their hands.

394
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:32,320
On and do you know what the
horrible thing is?

395
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:33,720
Maybe we can finish on this
point.

396
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,680
And teachers, if if you're out
there listening, let us know if

397
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,840
you feel the same way.
I feel like there there are

398
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:44,280
children who you could spend and
you do spend four years in a row

399
00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,440
telling them that sentences
start the capital letter and

400
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,560
showing them how to bridge past
10 when you add.

401
00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,120
And they still don't get it.
And doing half an hour extra

402
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,040
intervention every every week
makes a little bit of progress,

403
00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,120
but they still don't quite get
or none.

404
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:01,320
Yeah, let's be honest.
Yeah.

405
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,040
True.
True or none like.

406
00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,040
And, and at that point it's
like, well, you know, I had to

407
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,120
do this group because these
children were the ones who the

408
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,480
data suggested aren't there.
Well, they aren't there because

409
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,640
they aren't there.
And, and some children are at

410
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,520
that point in their learning.
And we need to accept that

411
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,040
sometimes, like we said,
different cohorts have different

412
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,000
levels.
That inherently means that some

413
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,000
cohorts have children who aren't
quite there yet.

414
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,760
And it doesn't matter how much
intervention we put in place or

415
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,000
barrage them with, they're not
quite there yet.

416
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:27,560
It is.
True.

417
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,720
Because if I go back to, you
know, even reflecting on

418
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,720
something we've said in the
past, I think the, I think the

419
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,760
timetable is too long anyway.
Like I think we'd benefit from

420
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,000
shortening the amount of maths
and English and stuff we do and

421
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,640
just chunking it more.
And like it goes, it goes

422
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,120
against everything in my soul to
be like, yes, if they can't do

423
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,120
it, do more of it.
Like, you know, the government,

424
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:48,280
like trying to extend the school
days.

425
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:49,960
I think that's terrible.
I think the research suggests

426
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,680
that extending school days won't
do anything.

427
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,520
The kids would be even more
tired and learn less because

428
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:54,720
their brain is just
overwhelming.

429
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,200
So it is strange.
I do find it strange sometimes

430
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,320
that we take our lowest, lowest
achievers out after they do five

431
00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,760
hours of maths a week and we go,
do you know what they need?

432
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,960
And they need another hour or
so, another half hour.

433
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:08,440
Do you know what?
Another 20 minutes.

434
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:09,720
Sometimes it's not going to do
anything.

435
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,000
It's not going to do anything.
And I'll tell you what, it very

436
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,800
rarely does anything.
Apart from, do you know what it

437
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:16,599
does do?
Make them resent what they're

438
00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:18,720
missing because they're doing
extra math, especially when

439
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,200
taken out of that.
We're taken out of PE to do some

440
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,599
extra maths that I can't do.
But I'm really good at PE.

441
00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:25,480
Yeah.
Yeah.

442
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,839
But because the data, What does
the data say about PE?

443
00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:29,520
Why can't I do PE?
Yeah.

444
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,280
Why can't I do my history
lesson?

445
00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:33,280
I enjoy history.
It's fun.

446
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,320
Oh, what you're gonna teach me
how to do, you know, column

447
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,480
Method Edition again?
I've done that for a week and I

448
00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,200
struggle with it.
I did it last year and the year

449
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,720
before and I still can't do it.
So you're 1/2 an hour thing is

450
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,160
just taking up here.
However, my give them to group,

451
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,480
they're doing algebra sequences
stuff they would never ever see

452
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,600
for and they're absolutely
loving it.

453
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:52,800
I don't know, I think we should
rethink it.

454
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,040
I think interventions are maybe
something we could do in a

455
00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,680
future hard episode on our
entire body of our existence in

456
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,280
schools, which are very much
because we've always done them

457
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,200
because.
And I just think they're a bit

458
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,720
broken.
Well, we'll talk about that in

459
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:08,560
the future, shall we?
Yeah.

460
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:09,480
Well, that's how we're gonna
leave it.

461
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,800
I'm gonna say bin them right now
and then maybe next time we'll

462
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:13,000
talk about.
It well, I've done one with

463
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:14,840
gated and talented and I think
it's really worthwhile.

464
00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:15,840
Yeah, so don't get into
mentioned.

465
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:16,560
So there we go.
All right.

466
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:17,680
Let's talk about it in the
future.

467
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,560
Should we do what we actually
came here to do, which was

468
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:20,560
something completely?
Different.

469
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:21,960
I suppose so.
Yeah, OK, Play Jingle.

470
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,360
Is middle leadership in a school
ever worth it?

471
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:29,840
Wow, you really did go in
straight with the question.

472
00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,160
What would I normally do?
Now you would go.

473
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,080
No.
End of the episode, Yeah.

474
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:39,200
Is it ever worth it though?
No, no, Let's clarify what we

475
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:40,080
mean.
Yeah, OK, let's go.

476
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:41,920
Let's take this back, though.
Let's take this batch.

477
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,520
We go right back to the middle
leadership even.

478
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,040
Sorry, maybe not the start of
time.

479
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:48,120
Maybe just the start of like 10
seconds ago.

480
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,040
Yeah, yeah.
So what is middle leadership?

481
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,720
What even is that?
Bear in mind we have non teacher

482
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,040
listeners that might even know
what this.

483
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,640
Is yeah, Rishi Sunak.
Rishi soon now I don't I think

484
00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,160
just listen to isn't.
He still the leader of the

485
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:00,800
opposition?
Like, isn't he still in charge

486
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,560
of the Conservatives right now
'cause I've got a new one yet?

487
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:03,520
I have no idea.
No.

488
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:04,920
He writes in a lot.
We should ask him.

489
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:06,360
Yeah.
Definitely got a lot of time in

490
00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:09,160
his answer.
So middle leadership in school

491
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:11,480
is quite a vague term actually.
Yeah.

492
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,880
Because I'd say you could kind
of break school down into 3

493
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:15,920
levels.
You've got your teachers.

494
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,520
So we're talking about teachers
here, not assistant teachers or,

495
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,600
you know, caretakers or anything
like that.

496
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:22,280
Just the level of the teaching
staff.

497
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:23,600
Class teacher.
Yeah, exactly.

498
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,640
So we've got class teacher.
Who is that?

499
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,640
They have a class, they teach
English maths in the morning,

500
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:28,800
they have their class in the
afternoon.

501
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:32,680
That's it.
Then at the top we've got SLT

502
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,440
and whenever we say SLT we mean
senior leadership team.

503
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,240
This is this is comprised of the
headteacher, the deputy

504
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,400
headteacher and often assistant
headteachers who might have

505
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,200
other roles in the school, but
they're part of the SLT which is

506
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,760
the ultimate top.
They make all the decisions and

507
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,000
have their own meetings.
And the middle leadership is

508
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,800
this really strange middle
ground where there's extra

509
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,520
responsibility.
And what might come to mind

510
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,720
straight away when you say
middle leadership is a year

511
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,040
group leader or a key stage
leader if you're in a smaller

512
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,440
school or even a curriculum lead
or or lately with schools, a lot

513
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,800
more subject leaders
particularly I would say English

514
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,840
and maths are often on the
middle leadership meetings like

515
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:13,680
Rota if you want to have a
meeting or anything.

516
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,320
But I would argue the other
ones, depending on how much work

517
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,880
you have to do and how much kind
of accountability there is, they

518
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:20,400
can creep into middle leadership
as well.

519
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,680
So what we're talking about here
is as a classroom teacher, which

520
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,560
is by the way, clarify again
because you did this very well

521
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,240
last time.
Being a classroom teacher is a

522
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,080
full time job.
Planning, delivering lessons,

523
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,880
marking the lessons takes up all
of the directed time which you

524
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:39,800
are allotted as a classroom
teacher.

525
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:44,080
That's a job.
Middle leadership is where those

526
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:49,440
classroom teachers maybe apply
to lead a year group or lead a

527
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,960
phase, maybe a six, A 5-6 lead
or even a whole key stage if

528
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,880
you're in a bigger school.
And the question is basically,

529
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,280
is it ever worth it?
Is it ever worth going from a

530
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:01,760
class teacher to a middle
leader?

531
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,160
Why would someone do it?
And the big question, I suppose,

532
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:10,640
is why are no, why is no one
bothering to do it anymore?

533
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,520
It feels like why does no one
want that job?

534
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:13,960
It's become a poisoned chalice
almost.

535
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:15,880
So we're going to try and dig
deep here.

536
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,400
Is it ever worth?
OK, let's let's start with,

537
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,960
let's start with like a like a,
a pro, right?

538
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:23,760
So a reason that someone would
do it.

539
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,520
OK, the first and most obvious
reason I think that jumps out of

540
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,960
me that someone would a class
teacher would apply for this

541
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,680
middle leadership role.
Not just have it like chucked on

542
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,760
them, but actually apply for it,
is that they have a plan in

543
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,000
their head where they want to
work up these kind of roles in

544
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,160
the school and potentially make
it to senior leadership.

545
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:42,880
Maybe they even want to be a
head teacher or something like

546
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,720
that one day.
So, and, and for them, it's an

547
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,760
important step on that ladder
where they're like, I have to do

548
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,160
this to progress to the next
bit.

549
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,280
They might not necessarily be
looking at the middle leadership

550
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,320
thinking, oh, that's all I want
to do with my career.

551
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:55,880
I just want to go and be a
middle leader.

552
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,480
I just want to be the head of
year for the rest of my life.

553
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,560
They might be, they might do.
But I, I think the majority of

554
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,200
people when I, when I speak to
them anyway, are like, yeah, I'm

555
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:04,560
going to try and do this for
like a year or two.

556
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,280
And then I'm going to be
applying for like that deputy

557
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:07,640
head position that I know is
going to be coming up.

558
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,600
You know, so that's the first
thing for me is it's, it's a

559
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,880
stepping stone.
It is the next rung of the

560
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,080
ladder that they have to get,
that they have to go to.

561
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,960
All right, yeah, it's, it's,
it's a weird 1, isn't it?

562
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,480
Because that it almost implies
within that within what you're

563
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,600
saying there, that it's a role
you don't want to do.

564
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,160
For a lot of people, I think it
is, though, I really do think

565
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,800
that, and maybe I've just been
warped by the people I just

566
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,240
happened to have spoken to over
the years.

567
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,000
But I feel like I've spoken to
like a healthy amount of people

568
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,960
who have been class teachers who
have then become middle leaders

569
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,400
and either still are or have
moved on or have stopped doing

570
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,080
it, I think.
Yeah, I think what we should do

571
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,800
is separate out here, generic
subject leadership.

572
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:45,960
Maybe we could talk about that a
bit later.

573
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:47,080
Sure.
Because generic subject

574
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,400
leadership is in a lot of
schools just expected, you know,

575
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,440
like, yeah, OK, you've got to
lead something.

576
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,280
So you can lead PSHE or you can
lead RA, you can lead geography,

577
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,360
history, blah, blah, blah.
We've spoken loads about how

578
00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:58,080
that's just an insane burden and
workload.

579
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,680
We're talking about how this is
where teachers actively don't

580
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,800
have to make that step and want
to do so to become a year group

581
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,000
leader, to become a phase
leader.

582
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,440
It's added responsibility and
something that a lot of people

583
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,160
have said to me before.
And another reason why you might

584
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:12,960
want to do it and it might be
worth it for you.

585
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:14,880
Is that you do get a bump in
your salary.

586
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,760
You do get extra money off them.
Let's talk about TLR.

587
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,240
Yeah, it's about money because
it's it's almost both, isn't it?

588
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,040
It's a pro anacon because the
pro someone who's trying to sell

589
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,640
it, someone might say, so I'm
gonna be SLT here.

590
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:26,760
I need to find a year group
leader.

591
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:28,960
Hey, Hayden.
I'm thinking about it.

592
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:29,800
Hayden, you're thinking about
it.

593
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:31,320
I know you got your eye on the
prize.

594
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,880
My job in the long term, but,
you know, but a little champ.

595
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,440
But you can't do it just yet.
Maybe between now and then.

596
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,120
Do you know what would be really
good bit of experience?

597
00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:40,920
OK.
And do you know what bit bit bit

598
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,600
of, you know, like a taste for
that power.

599
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:44,800
Yeah.
In middle leadership.

600
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:45,640
Yeah.
A little bit of power.

601
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:47,000
And.
And do you know what you get?

602
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:47,840
A bit of money.
Money.

603
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:49,920
Yeah, the money, because you're
on loads of money.

604
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,600
Compared to me, well, I
wouldn't, don't worry about

605
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,080
that.
And no need to be transparent

606
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:53,600
about that.
Yeah.

607
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:55,680
But yeah, I mean, a bit of that
moolah, Yeah.

608
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,200
OK.
You want to be ahead of year.

609
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,360
Yeah, I do.
You can get a bit of extra cash

610
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:01,680
well.
That's kind of halfway between

611
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,840
my role and your role.
So big, big pay rise.

612
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:06,000
We're talking here you.
Can do.

613
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,240
You know what?
Yeah, a little bit of extra

614
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:09,480
cash.
You can't, because you can't

615
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:10,880
sniff.
It can you, You said little a

616
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:12,640
few times.
Now I am getting a bit worried.

617
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,000
Just a little bit.
Just a little bit again, yeah.

618
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,160
Because you love the kids,
don't.

619
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:17,480
I do love the kids.
How much?

620
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,080
How much do you love the kids?
I love the kids about as much.

621
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:22,200
I don't know, it depends how
much you pay me.

622
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:23,760
I'll be honest with you, right
now you're starting to wit me

623
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,120
out a little bit more.
Am I going to?

624
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:27,520
Sorry, are you going to pay me
at all for this?

625
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,360
You aren't OK.
Gonna pay you roughly how much?

626
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,480
After tax £60 Sorry.
What was that?

627
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,320
So you might you mumbled and you
said something.

628
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,200
You either said 6.
Round or 60 lbs.

629
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,440
Can I?
I don't have control over the

630
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:39,400
tax system.
Yeah, right.

631
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,720
I wish I did, because if I had
control over the tax system, you

632
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,080
wouldn't be paying a penny of
tax.

633
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,640
No, but I can.
I can offer you a TLR.

634
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:47,680
Yeah, a TLR.
Good.

635
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:53,520
TLR, as you know, range from
£2600, in fact 2671 lbs

636
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,600
precisely, which I just happened
to know is the minimum that you

637
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,600
can give someone for a TLR.
Yeah, just happened to know that

638
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:58,840
say that is the minimum.
Yep.

639
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,360
And they range upwards from
there, about 10 grand I think

640
00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:04,080
they got, don't know, wouldn't
know, but they range upwards.

641
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,960
Sorry about that.
They range upwards from

642
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,280
precisely 2600. 71 you know that
number you don't know the top

643
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,240
one, but that's fine because I'm
obviously somewhere in between

644
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,640
so well where so OK all right
think about this girl where if I

645
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,840
take on this massive
responsibility of being let's

646
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,160
say you know ahead of year
because you need a.

647
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:23,200
Head of Year.
Massive classes.

648
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,120
Massive middle.
Middle.

649
00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:26,600
Middle leadership.
Yeah, but.

650
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,120
You say massive responsibility,
Yeah.

651
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:30,240
Is it crucial?
Do you need me?

652
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,360
I really need it's absolutely
crucial.

653
00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:34,480
This role would honestly,
schools would not function

654
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,280
unless we had this role and
you're in charge.

655
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,280
Well, just sorry before you
clarify the money because I can

656
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:39,400
understand maybe it'd be
different.

657
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,080
Will will this bill, will this
be replacing?

658
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,320
You know, I'll be out of class
all the time doing this.

659
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,400
Well, I'll be doing on top.
Yeah, 'cause you loved, you

660
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,240
know, we couldn't take you out
the classroom.

661
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,040
We no I.
Can't do.

662
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:52,840
You're one of our best teachers,
Hayden.

663
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:54,160
We can't take you out the
classroom.

664
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,680
What I'm asking you to do is
loads of extra work on top of.

665
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,200
OK, let's cut to the chase.
Yeah, I get it.

666
00:25:58,200 --> 00:25:58,920
I get it.
OK.

667
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,320
You need, you need someone to be
ahead of you.

668
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,720
It's a crucial role.
Yeah, I've got to do it on top

669
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,000
of my full time teacher role
order eats into my entire

670
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:05,840
weekends in the evening.
Yeah.

671
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,800
Yeah, yeah.
How much money am I going to

672
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,640
get?
Well, because to be fair, money

673
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,480
is the only thing you're getting
extra, isn't it?

674
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,520
You're not getting time out,
time out.

675
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,760
Yeah, yeah.
Sorry, I am.

676
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,680
I'm actually can't, by the way,
this afternoon cover your class

677
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,400
because I don't want to.
But we can't get you out of

678
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:23,640
class.
No, no, no, next time.

679
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,960
So no extra time to do it.
Huge responsible job, mass

680
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,520
responsibility.
But it is a stepping stone for

681
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,560
you and we can give you a little
bit of money.

682
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,320
Go on.
OK, well, The thing is though,

683
00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:36,560
you keep skirting around that
little bit of money.

684
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,000
It's the little bit of money
that you'll.

685
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,840
Give you a TLR 3 and three is a
big #3 is bigger than one or two

686
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,280
isn't.
It it's bigger than one or two,

687
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:45,880
Yeah.
Does it come with lots more

688
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:46,400
money?
No.

689
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,160
How much precisely we're
talking?

690
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,520
After tax about about £100.
Well, see.

691
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,240
So you mumbled to get after tax
about 100 lbs.

692
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:56,880
Roughly.
But what's money between?

693
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,640
A day or.
A month, yeah.

694
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,080
So in your pay packet, tiny,
you'd bait you'd Honestly your

695
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,480
pay rise is going to be more
than what your TLR will be.

696
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,920
So are you up for it?
Well, you've sold it to me.

697
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,200
I'm in.
I'm in, baby.

698
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:14,800
Well, that went on for a while,
didn't.

699
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:16,720
It.
Oh my God, I forgot we were

700
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:17,280
doing this.
Yeah.

701
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,880
Key point, key point here, I
guess that you were half an hour

702
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,840
and what we're both getting at
is, is that although it's more

703
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,440
money generally and and you know
what Dylan's already explored

704
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,400
the fact that there are middle
leaders out there taking on

705
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,240
geography lead that don't get
any money at all.

706
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,480
So that's just an awkward middle
ground, but we're talking about

707
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,320
middle leaders that come with,
they'll come with money and

708
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,400
responsibility like that.
It's not, it's not much, is it?

709
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,120
It's really not much like mostly
a group leaders get paid the

710
00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:46,000
absolute minimum amount on on a
TLR that which is what, 2000?

711
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,800
Two, I said 2002.
It's something like that.

712
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:51,840
It's something like that.
I hope, I hope to do it exactly.

713
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,920
But it's like, it's like high
end of 2000.

714
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:54,240
Yeah.
Yeah.

715
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,400
And and the way it's just
complete abuse of the system.

716
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:57,640
Yeah.
Because TLR, for anyone who

717
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,320
doesn't know, is teaching and
learning responsibility.

718
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,920
They've been designed to give
people money who have a teaching

719
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,120
and learning responsibility.
Yeah.

720
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,920
And there are TLR Threes, which
is the lowest, even though it

721
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,800
says 3, TLR 2 and then TLR one.
And the whole point is TLR

722
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,360
threes are designed to be short
term.

723
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:12,920
You've got a school improvement
plan.

724
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,400
Someone comes on board for like
a little bit to be like what?

725
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:16,480
I'm going to, we're going to
smash history.

726
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:17,640
We're going to rewrite the
curriculum.

727
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,320
Here's the TLR for these six
months because you're doing this

728
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,040
extra work extra, but it's short
term.

729
00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:25,080
If you have a long term, more
permanent position, you are

730
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,480
supposed to have at least TLR 2
and even potentially TLR 1 based

731
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,720
on how important and impact the
impact is in your school.

732
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,400
That does not happen anymore.
You get TLR three or nothing,

733
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,160
for example, Pure, pure all
transparency here.

734
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,360
And this is the same at every
school.

735
00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:38,400
So I don't think this is
necessary.

736
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:39,920
Something you can beat your
school with or stick with.

737
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,240
There's not enough money in
schools right now.

738
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,000
We lead maths, okay, we're part
time, so it's already pro rata.

739
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,960
Our TLR, we don't get the full
TLR even though, even though the

740
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,400
job isn't pro rata, you know,
our time is pro rata.

741
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,720
So we get pro rata for the TLR
and we're on the lowest possible

742
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,680
rung of TLR.
Three and we half it, yeah.

743
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,160
Yeah, because we're, yeah, we
share.

744
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,080
It I just take it on at the same
time, so it's quite funny.

745
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,840
So, you know, we're getting
honestly about £50 I think a

746
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:05,920
month.
Oh, it's less than that.

747
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:06,720
Is it less than that?
Like?

748
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,240
The tax at 2530.
Pounds.

749
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:09,240
Yeah.
So you look at it and you're

750
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,240
just like, Oh my God.
And it's just you just think to

751
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,600
yourself.
Luckily we love maths, you know,

752
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,120
we're we're in a place where if
we need to implement stuff, we

753
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:17,520
get time to do it.
Yeah, exactly.

754
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,600
So the money isn't as important
because basically the money

755
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,080
would be input for your
responsibility and for your time

756
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,680
maybe.
But as head of year, and we've

757
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,040
spoken to a lot of people in our
time, it's a role that is

758
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,920
becoming less and less valued.
Yeah, desirable.

759
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,720
It's not desirable anymore.
And it's because of what we're

760
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,640
saying.
If we're we're over as teachers,

761
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,400
if we do a job, we want to get
paid for it.

762
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,360
It's newsflash, we don't want to
do it for free anymore.

763
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,960
Did you see the strikes?
Yeah, he's mad.

764
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,440
So there there are pros and con
there Pro is you do get a bit

765
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:49,760
more money.
And you know what, that might be

766
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,720
that little bit extra money that
you need and we're not here like

767
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,960
say, oh, it's crap, but no one
gets it.

768
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:59,240
But but really objectively, like
for your time, for your time.

769
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,280
Yeah, for the time and
responsibility compared to like

770
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,320
the what you're actually getting
paid for your main job, it

771
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,600
really, really is a tiny amount
more money for an enormous,

772
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,760
enormous responsibility.
If you're doing something like a

773
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,400
head of year or a phase leader
where you're actually managing

774
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,520
multiple year groups across like
key stage 2 or lower key stage 2

775
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,840
or key stage 1, whatever.
So yeah, it's a pro and con.

776
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,240
The money for me, it's a massive
con.

777
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,840
It is not in time whatsoever.
Like there's absolutely no way

778
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,120
that anyone could ever convince
me to be ahead of year.

779
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,120
Like no matter what my situation
was, get rid of our business,

780
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:31,840
get rid of us being part time.
I just went back to being a

781
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,920
class teacher and I was 10 years
in right now and they were like,

782
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,960
oh, you know, you're on, you're
at the top of the pay scale now

783
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:38,280
anyway because you're 10 years
in.

784
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,240
Do you want an extra 2 grand to
take on this horrendous job?

785
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,840
I'm like, absolutely not.
I'm not doing, No way am I doing

786
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:45,760
that.
That's not enticing enough at

787
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,640
all.
OK, so a big part of being a

788
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,040
middle leader and if I'm, I'm
playing the role now of actually

789
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,120
I'm going to try and entice you
to become one because you're

790
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:53,600
very clearly don't want a new
one.

791
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,640
So we've gone through the
benefits of you do get paid, but

792
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,280
really, is it worth it?
No, not really.

793
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:00,960
We talked about time out
briefly.

794
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,520
OK, is there any amount of time
out in a week where you would

795
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,840
think, OK, my role has just
changed enough here where I know

796
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,400
I don't need to spend any extra
time now doing this job?

797
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,400
Yeah.
But I, I, I know that I've got

798
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,000
the extra responsibility.
OK.

799
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,360
Is, is there an amount of time
in a week that you think would

800
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,800
be acceptable enough to turn
your head and take this role?

801
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,560
Yeah.
As head of year, let's say, or

802
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,920
head of key stage.
What does that look like to you?

803
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,080
Like how much time would you
need out of your calendar in the

804
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:32,760
week for it to be OK?
Now it's in.

805
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:33,960
Yeah, sure.
That's a really good question.

806
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,520
So firstly, yes, there there is
a there is a situation here

807
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:38,680
where I'd be like, Yep, now I'm.
Happy.

808
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,520
So the job itself isn't
something you're inherently

809
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:41,960
against.
No, no, not at all, right.

810
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,640
And I actually think it's, I
mean, we can talk about another

811
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,080
pro whilst I give you this
answer, which is as someone who

812
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,600
quite likes managerial stuff
anyway, it's actually like on

813
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,120
paper, I actually quite like the
idea of the job.

814
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,040
I just don't like the idea of
the job on top of full time

815
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,560
teaching with no leeway
whatsoever.

816
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,720
Now, I think it's normal that
year group leaders, middle

817
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,520
leaders might get like an
afternoon out a week or like a

818
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,040
slot somewhere right out a week.
But I don't think it's enough to

819
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,600
take on all the responsibility
of like it just everything falls

820
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,400
on you, doesn't it?
It's a bit something gone wrong

821
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:10,960
that the teacher's not in the
next day.

822
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,840
Who do you reckon is the person
who's got to like sort out cover

823
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,120
for that person?
It's going to be the year group

824
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,160
leader, isn't it?
Realistically?

825
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,880
So for me, I think, I mean it's
different for every school,

826
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,160
depends on what the role is.
I think it just needs to be the

827
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,800
perfect balance of my my job is
now not going to take any longer

828
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,240
than it did than before I was
started because my time is

829
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,480
already maxed out.
It has to be fully replaced.

830
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,040
So if that means I need 3
afternoons out a week.

831
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,680
And do you know what someone
else is is the is the class

832
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,200
teacher?
But I do the maths and I do

833
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:38,600
maths English in the morning.
Maybe you're a set?

834
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,160
Teacher, I'm a set teacher now
and I help cover in the

835
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,360
afternoons every now and then,
but generally the afternoons are

836
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,080
free.
For me to get on with this role

837
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,720
and manage and run the year
group properly, I'll be like,

838
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,160
yeah, OK, that's worth it.
Now, even with just a little, a

839
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,000
little boost in income, I'll be
like, yeah, but you know what,

840
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,320
you've given me the time.
I enjoy the role.

841
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,280
It's replacing things I did
before.

842
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:58,960
A little bit more
responsibility, a little bit

843
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,640
more money.
I'd be like, OK, I'll be more

844
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,920
into this right now.
But as it currently stands,

845
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,960
I've, I don't know of that
existing.

846
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,560
Maybe if you work in a school,
you're a middle leader in that

847
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:09,800
position.
You think, yeah, actually my

848
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,840
school is really fair.
Please let us know, because I

849
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,040
don't know anyone who is working
as a middle leader, specifically

850
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,560
as a year group or phase leader,
who isn't being absolutely

851
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,720
royally mugged off for that time
and money.

852
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,400
Completely, absolutely great
because it's something on paper

853
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,400
that I thought you'd be really
interested in just knowing you,

854
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,720
knowing the like managerial
aspect of basically, I don't

855
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,240
want to say being in charge
because it sounds like I'm

856
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,360
taking a Mick, but just this
idea of OK, I can take in all of

857
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:36,720
these problems, I can try and
solve them.

858
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,720
I can work with my team and we
can move to forward together.

859
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:40,640
I think you'd be really good at
that.

860
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,960
And it's a shame.
And what I get frustrated about

861
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,120
in schools is that these people
are being turned away from these

862
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:47,840
roles.
And not only are these people

863
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,240
being turned away from these
roles, the people who accept it

864
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,680
are being ground down.
Who, you know, actually, you

865
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,920
would be a great middle leader,
and you are an amazing middle

866
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:57,160
leader.
But you know what?

867
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,920
If you were just given the time
that you needed to do the job,

868
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,400
you'd be even better.
You can't do it in schools.

869
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,680
Would be more efficient.
Schools would be better.

870
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,280
Teachers would feel happier.
Workload would reduce.

871
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,480
I just think it's like, it's
just such a domino effect.

872
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,840
Yeah.
And this is another cog in the

873
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,560
school machine which isn't
working.

874
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,840
You know, one cog breaks the
machine, Right.

875
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,280
But we've got about 15 cogs that
are completely broken in the

876
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:19,600
school.
Yeah.

877
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,560
Yeah.
And this is like this to me

878
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,639
screams austerity and cuts
because why is this happening?

879
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,440
I don't think there's anyone in
the country who who really

880
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,440
thinks that it's better if a
class teacher maintains all of

881
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,560
their class teacher
responsibility and has to lead

882
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,199
the year group.
I don't think anyone actually

883
00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:36,920
thinks that that's acceptable or
OK.

884
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:38,719
Why?
What do you think's driving

885
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,199
this?
Well, like you said, it's cut,

886
00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:42,159
it's money.
I mean, we spoke to a Dylan and

887
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:43,360
I spoke to a teacher the other
day.

888
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,600
I won't go into detail as to
why, but we were speaking to a

889
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,560
teacher the other day who works
in a small school, one form

890
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,679
entry and they were saying how
they are head of three subjects

891
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:53,080
on top of being a classroom
teacher.

892
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,639
And it just, honestly, I had
like a feeling in my stomach

893
00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:57,320
where I, I felt a bit sick
because I was like, God, I'd

894
00:34:57,720 --> 00:34:59,520
like, we work in a big school
and luckily we can spread that

895
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,080
burden out a little bit, but
people, loads of people just

896
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,120
don't.
And it's, and, and I think she

897
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:05,840
was even saying how it's like,
yeah, we're on the absolute

898
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,320
breaking point, complete
breaking point.

899
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,160
Like it's broken.
The system is completely broken.

900
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,360
Like we can't manage this.
And I just feel horrible.

901
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:12,680
And it is.
And it's, and you think about

902
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,360
it, it's like, yeah, it's down
to money.

903
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,520
If there was more money, we'd
have more, we could employ more

904
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,040
people to do these jobs.
We don't.

905
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,000
And they have to get junk.
They're so important that they

906
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,240
have to get done, but there's no
money for them so.

907
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,120
That's the bit, that message
from my head that I just can't

908
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,200
accept when people try and tell
me something so important

909
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,280
because that has to come along
with money.

910
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,720
Like if something is that
important.

911
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:35,200
Yeah, and I agree it is the
children's outcomes and stuff.

912
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,320
If we're all agreeing that
that's so important, we need to

913
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,720
match it with what we're putting
into the system because we're

914
00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:42,240
not currently.
And it's like saying, OK, I

915
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:43,920
don't believe you think it's
that important then because

916
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,120
you're also gatekeeping so much
money that we need.

917
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,440
OK, thinking about continuing to
try and convince you to say this

918
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:50,720
job, OK, we can't get the time
out.

919
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,840
OK.
I'm sorry but I really wanted to

920
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:54,720
become head.
Of the year I'm gone by.

921
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,280
Now, no, no, no, no.
I really wanted to become head

922
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,120
of the year, So.
And I know for a fact you've

923
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,760
talked about you like
responsibility, OK?

924
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,520
You like being able to make
decisions, like being able to be

925
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,120
in charge of a team, being their
leader.

926
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,040
And that's something you get to
do as a middle leader.

927
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,360
You get to really mould what
we're doing as a curriculum

928
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,440
maybe or, or you're in charge of
people and you can say, no,

929
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,040
we're going to do this trip,
we're going to be in charge of

930
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,960
that.
How true is that as a middle

931
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,120
leader?
How much power do the middle

932
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,720
leaders actually have?
We're thinking that's a pro.

933
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,040
I think it is true mostly to
like, I think it is mostly true

934
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,840
they have some power and
responsibility and more than the

935
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,960
class teacher anyway.
Like they can make decisions

936
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:35,560
with their year group, perhaps
if you think about year group

937
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,880
leaders again.
But there is just that caveat,

938
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,000
isn't there?
Of there is still a rung above

939
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:47,000
you though, the SLT who could
just basically veto anything you

940
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,600
say at any point.
And it does happen, I find, and,

941
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:54,280
and I think middle leaders can
sometimes get caught in a little

942
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,640
trap of delivering the news of
the SLT as if it was their

943
00:36:58,640 --> 00:36:59,960
decision.
But really they've just been

944
00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:02,440
told by city no, no, no, no,
look, we need to do this thing,

945
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,560
teachers aren't going to like
it, but we need to do this thing

946
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,800
in, in geography And that's what
you're leading at the moment.

947
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,400
And, and in maths, because
you're leading both actually,

948
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:09,360
and you're a year group leader
as well.

949
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,760
So you need to tell your year
group that we're changing maths

950
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,640
and geography.
This is a meeting between two

951
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,720
people, me and you, and you're
in charge of everything.

952
00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:16,960
You're charged.
For everything and I'm actually

953
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:18,720
I'm not in class.
Your class base is all on top

954
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,680
and and you've got to deliver
that news and remember, you're

955
00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:25,120
you're on the leadership team
now.

956
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,680
So we can't be seen to be
disagreeing, can we?

957
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:28,760
That is often the thing, isn't
it?

958
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,840
I think it's like you've got to
all be on the same fighting for

959
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,160
the same hymn sheet, singing
from the hymn fighting, singing

960
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:35,600
from the same hymn sheet I'm
doing to.

961
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:36,880
You I'd like to do that church
though, and.

962
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,360
Yeah, but it puts people in
awkward positions, doesn't it?

963
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:40,600
Which I think is kind of what
you want to be.

964
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,240
Yeah, exactly.
Which is that, yes, you do have

965
00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:45,320
a bit of power and really you're
the line manager for people now.

966
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,000
They do actually just kind of
need to do what you're telling

967
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,200
them to do.
But equally one, they could

968
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:50,480
immediately go above you if they
wanted to.

969
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,680
I don't agree with you, straight
to SLT.

970
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:54,400
My line manager's telling me to
do this.

971
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,640
I don't want to do it.
And they might just go around

972
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,240
you.
And to their line managers, the

973
00:37:59,240 --> 00:38:01,640
SLT are going to tell you
sometimes you need to deliver

974
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:03,720
this bad news and you need to be
happy about it because you're on

975
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:05,920
the S, you're on the leadership
team now and we're all singing

976
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,720
from the same MG again.
Yeah, it's like, to me, it's

977
00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:12,200
like school, you know, when
there's all these like clicks

978
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,440
and groups that are kind of have
this weird way of working

979
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,080
together and this, these guys
have influence over these guys,

980
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,000
but the other people are hard to
have influence over.

981
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,720
You got to go around them.
It's so hard to stay on top of.

982
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,000
And although there's a Direct
Line that you said of power

983
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,960
coming down, middle leadership
is so hard because you are still

984
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:30,840
the people at the bottom of that
line.

985
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:32,440
You are still a classroom
teacher.

986
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,640
So for a, for a lot of it as a
middle leader who's out of the

987
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,640
room, you might be able to step
back from stuff sometimes and

988
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,920
see it from the level of SLT,
but also you are on the ground

989
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,400
doing it.
And if SLT or someone decide

990
00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:48,040
something that you know is bad
and your team think is bad, it's

991
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,560
incredibly hard and awkward to
be the middle person in that

992
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,120
because you are fighting
something you literally

993
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,400
experience every day.
So where where you're in the

994
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:57,800
classroom delivering the
lessons.

995
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,680
If they say we need to do XYZ
and your whole team turn around

996
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,960
and say, you know that's mad,
right?

997
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,080
Because you we did.
We did all this last week and

998
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,720
you know that introducing that
would be insane and wouldn't

999
00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:10,000
work because.
You're on the ground with us.

1000
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:11,560
Because you're on the ground
with us and you and you're a

1001
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,280
really cool, decent person.
You understand that's just not

1002
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,480
going to work, right?
And and they have to kind of go,

1003
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:21,640
yeah, but you know.
And that's that this is what

1004
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,920
we're doing and I can't disagree
with it because, you know, I'm

1005
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:25,920
trying to work up the ladder.
That's the other thing at the

1006
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,000
end of the day with this, the
whole context of this also needs

1007
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:32,240
to be that the chances are these
middle leaders are probably have

1008
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:34,560
got their eyes set on something
higher as well probably most of

1009
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:36,200
the time.
So it's like they absolutely

1010
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,320
don't want to be disagreeing
with SLT and being the bad books

1011
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,280
now because they want to make it
up to that role at some point.

1012
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,840
So it is a hard position to be
in, I think just to kind of

1013
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:44,560
summary, because we've sort of
talked about the pros I think.

1014
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,600
So I just kind of want to
summarise them, if you don't

1015
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,160
mind.
Number one, it's stepping stone,

1016
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:51,080
yeah, that's the pro.
It could get you to a position

1017
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:52,840
that actually you really want to
do and you might not need to do

1018
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,400
it very long.
So yeah, someone's someone's got

1019
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:55,600
to do it.
Someone's going to go through

1020
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:56,440
that.
Yeah.

1021
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:57,960
You might enjoy the elements to
it.

1022
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,120
Like you might actually like me.
I actually quite, you know, with

1023
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,760
our business, I really enjoy the
running side of it, the admin

1024
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:03,800
side.
Of it and you do run it.

1025
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,040
I do run it and you some reason
take half the profit, but but I,

1026
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,120
you know, I enjoy it and that's
why I think you sort of let me.

1027
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,080
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because I enjoy it, I enjoy the

1028
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:13,280
managerial side of it.
So you.

1029
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:14,920
Might make money through the
business.

1030
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:16,720
Yeah, and I do the podcast,
which is fun.

1031
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,600
Yeah, yeah.
So that same, yeah, you take the

1032
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,000
money from the business and I
take some of the fun.

1033
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,760
Yeah, that's kind of how it
works, but.

1034
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,720
My middle, middle leadership
role.

1035
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:30,480
Yeah, I'm SLD.
You're reaping all the reward.

1036
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:31,680
Thank you I.
Appreciate that.

1037
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,240
No, I do.
Thanks for that.

1038
00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:34,440
That's right.
I think we'll be talking about

1039
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,600
our business later to have a bit
of a reshuffle.

1040
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:38,360
Oh yeah, you're out.
Yeah, you're out.

1041
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:40,720
No problem.
But yeah, that that kind of is

1042
00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:42,960
the pros and also a bit of time
out of class if you're lucky

1043
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:44,920
enough that for you might be a
good thing.

1044
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,240
You know, it comes with the
managerial side.

1045
00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:47,920
I get to be out of Class A
little bit more, maybe a

1046
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:49,800
producer marking a little bit,
because actually I'm going to do

1047
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,160
some admin instead, which I
enjoy more.

1048
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,400
There are some pros to it, you
know, you get a bit of power,

1049
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:55,800
but yeah.
But still no.

1050
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,040
But still no, because I think
the all the cons we've talked

1051
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,080
about so far and maybe there's
some we've missed, we wrote a.

1052
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:00,440
Few.
No.

1053
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,680
Yeah, down money is the big one.
Money is the big one.

1054
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,440
Yeah, it's a job do.
You know what time, The more I

1055
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:07,840
think about it, time is the big
one, yeah.

1056
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,240
Because actually that scenario
you gave me where I have more

1057
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:11,800
time, I probably would do it.
Sure.

1058
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:13,560
Do you know what I'm saying?
Money is the big one is because

1059
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,760
I'm just not even fathoming that
time could be.

1060
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,120
Yeah, the kind of option
because, you know, time actually

1061
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,120
is money.
Obviously time is money, money,

1062
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,560
but but if you're out of the
classroom, you have to pay for

1063
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,840
someone to teach, you know, and
if you're not going to be a

1064
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,600
classroom teacher anymore, and
let's say you want to just be

1065
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,360
English and maths in the
morning, you've got to hire a

1066
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,000
new teacher to be that classes
teacher.

1067
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,680
So time comes with money.
But yeah, personally you could

1068
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,720
give me no extra money at all.
But if you gave me the right,

1069
00:41:37,720 --> 00:41:39,720
the same amount of time, I think
I'd also take the job.

1070
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:41,600
So you're, you're right, it's
time.

1071
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,720
And that's, that's probably all
it is actually, because then you

1072
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:46,920
could build it up.
I'm really interested before we

1073
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,160
talk about maybe we can go into
more detail about a couple of

1074
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,440
the nose.
I'm really interested in your

1075
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:52,960
situation.
I want to dive into you

1076
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,880
personally because you, like
many people listening, went into

1077
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,280
teaching and I know for a fact
in your head you thought I'm

1078
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:01,280
going to be head teacher one
day.

1079
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,400
Yeah, yeah, I was going.
So you were absolutely there,

1080
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:04,840
right?
So at the start of your career

1081
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,200
you're like, I'm going to be
head teacher, I know full well

1082
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:08,480
what it means.
I'm going to have to work up,

1083
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,120
I'm going to take on maths
early, which you did.

1084
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,360
I'm going to obviously in your
head you thought I'm going to

1085
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,480
have to work through my ways
with the rungs of the ladder.

1086
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,880
What changed and when for you
personally?

1087
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:22,720
Let's go back to let's go back
in time St It's the beginning of

1088
00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:23,920
my career.
You're absolutely right, by the

1089
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,400
way, when I started teaching, I
was very much in the mindset of

1090
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,800
I need to be, I am working, I'm
here to work out the ranks.

1091
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,600
That's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to be a head teacher

1092
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,880
in 10 years, 10 years on now
exactly.

1093
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:37,480
And things did change.
So.

1094
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,560
When and why?
OK, two things changed and I'll

1095
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:45,000
tell you when #1 three years in
to our job, me and you started

1096
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,520
our business and I got a taste
for working for myself.

1097
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,360
I got a taste for working
outside of teaching and earning

1098
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,680
money in a different way.
That was that's number one.

1099
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,280
That's one big catalyst that
made me think, ah, it challenged

1100
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,720
my mindset and made me think
maybe there is another life for

1101
00:43:01,720 --> 00:43:03,440
me like a different direction I
can go in.

1102
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,600
That's number one.
Number two kind of comes with

1103
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:08,960
everything we've been talking
about in this episode is as I

1104
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,720
became, as my eyes opened more
to what it was like to work in

1105
00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:17,960
education and I saw the
progression and all of the bits

1106
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,440
in between being a head teacher
and all of the pecans that come

1107
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:22,560
with it.
You know, the lack of pay, the

1108
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,600
lack of time.
I realised I absolutely did not

1109
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,560
want to do any of those in
between bits.

1110
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,360
And I still feel like that now.
Do you know what?

1111
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,520
If we didn't have our business,
I'd be gutted because I'd be

1112
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,440
thinking, oh, I want to be a
head teacher, but I don't want

1113
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:36,800
to be.
I don't want to be a year group

1114
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:38,240
leader.
I don't want to be a phase

1115
00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:39,360
leader.
I don't want to be assistant

1116
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:40,320
head.
I don't want to be a deputy

1117
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:41,840
head.
I just want to be a head teacher

1118
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,400
because I like that.
But that's the bit I like.

1119
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,200
And I'm aware that you can't do
that.

1120
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,160
So I kind of had to give up and
be like, it's never going to

1121
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:50,280
happen.
I will stay.

1122
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,200
I'll either be a class teacher
forever, I'm going to be a head

1123
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,200
teacher, right?
Which is not feasible.

1124
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:55,680
Yeah.
No, no, it's interesting.

1125
00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:00,440
Do you think then that the
business is the main reason?

1126
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,440
Because what what I'm saying is
you just said if we didn't have

1127
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,040
the business, you go back to
wanting to be a head teacher,

1128
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:05,360
right.
But you don't do all the bits in

1129
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:06,640
between.
Yeah, but I probably would, but

1130
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,280
you probably would, right.
So this is what I'm saying.

1131
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,560
Do you think a big part for you,
and it kind of undermines it

1132
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,840
when you tell other people, oh
God, don't be middle leader.

1133
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,960
It's rubbish.
They don't have a business to

1134
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,680
fall back onto.
So you wait, you put, we put

1135
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,160
hours into stuff, right?
You put so much of your free

1136
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:24,440
time in stuff, you become
obsessed.

1137
00:44:24,720 --> 00:44:27,440
And a lot of your free time when
we're building the business was

1138
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,280
constantly doing stuff to do
with the business.

1139
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,640
And I had to say to you, Hayden,
just chill out for a bit like,

1140
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:33,840
but you didn't want to.
It's part of what you wanted to

1141
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:35,840
do.
And I saw you doing that

1142
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,920
ploughing time in before we had
the business into school and

1143
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:40,440
math leadership and all that
kind of stuff.

1144
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,320
So essentially what I'm saying
to you is, do you think it is

1145
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,680
really solely down to how having
a business kind of changed how

1146
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:50,240
you saw your time outside of
school?

1147
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,120
Because suddenly putting your
time into something in school

1148
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,400
compared to putting the same
amount of time into something

1149
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,800
for our business?
One of them had absolutely no

1150
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,760
reward for you and it was just
you just playing the game and

1151
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:04,920
you've got to make your lesson
slightly better for an hour.

1152
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:09,640
The other one created a system
where actually you improved your

1153
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:14,040
profits, £50 a month, I should
say £100 a month, that is that.

1154
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,200
Why do you think?
I think yeah, it is a huge

1155
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,200
factor, huge factor because like
you just said, just to reiterate

1156
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:24,480
it when I, when I I used to
plough time into both loads and

1157
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,960
loads and loads of time into,
into my teaching role outside of

1158
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,320
school extra hours and also into
our business, right.

1159
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:34,560
And one of them gave immediate,
tangible results and rewards

1160
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,640
financially, and the other one
didn't even come with

1161
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,600
recognition or praise.
That was the problem.

1162
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,360
It was like the opposite.
It wasn't even the middle ground

1163
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,240
of like, oh, you at least both
you're appreciated for like

1164
00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:45,720
because we'd obviously
appreciate each other.

1165
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,080
And then at school, at least
you're, it doesn't come with

1166
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:49,600
money, but at least you're.
Appreciated and you've got a

1167
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:51,480
salary.
And you know what it wasn't.

1168
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,600
And you leave a school and you
realise that all of those

1169
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,040
hundreds and hundreds and
hundreds of hours that you put

1170
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,640
into that job weren't remotely
appreciated and it meant

1171
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:01,880
nothing.
And the second you leave the

1172
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,680
school, you might as well have
not done it.

1173
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:05,360
You might as well have just
actually enjoyed your life for a

1174
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:06,760
bit and it would have made no
difference.

1175
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,560
You know, it's that horrible
thought train.

1176
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,440
And I think it was the
culmination of both of those

1177
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,520
things leaving a school around
the time that our business

1178
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:16,680
started picking up and going to
a different school.

1179
00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:18,720
And I left the school again.
So I've been in three schools

1180
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,800
realising that absolutely none
of the extra time you put in was

1181
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,760
remotely appreciated or it was
just expected of you.

1182
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:26,120
All right.
If you didn't do it, it'd almost

1183
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:27,520
be in the bad books.
It's like, what are you talking

1184
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:28,720
about?
But you still get your salary.

1185
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,120
Got my salary, made me think,
no, I will do what's required of

1186
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:33,120
me.
I'm not going to be lazy.

1187
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:34,480
I'll do what's required of me,
of this job.

1188
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,560
And I'll plan good lessons and
I'll teach good lessons and I'll

1189
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,240
mark as I'm supposed to mark.
But I'm not putting in any more

1190
00:46:39,240 --> 00:46:40,960
time anymore.
And what I will do is I'll spend

1191
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:42,920
more time in our business, which
and immediately has tangible

1192
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,720
results.
I put in more time and we make

1193
00:46:45,720 --> 00:46:48,320
more money, you know, and that
sounds really selfish and we are

1194
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:49,880
talking about money right now.
But at the end of the day, we

1195
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,000
will need money to live like no
one's doing this job for free,

1196
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,000
are they?
So yeah, I transitioned to, oh,

1197
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,520
I'll put, I'll my free time.
I can do it for I can do it for

1198
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,040
absolutely nothing.
No pay or recognition, all

1199
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:01,240
right.
And really probably not even

1200
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:02,520
making that much difference to
the kids.

1201
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,960
If it did, I'll still do it
because I still believe in kids

1202
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,680
need a really quality education
versus doing time for our

1203
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,240
business where there are rewards
in it.

1204
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,720
So do you understand Then I
suppose I completely agree with

1205
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:17,640
everything you said.
Do you understand how I was

1206
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,080
saying to someone who doesn't
have a business, who doesn't

1207
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,280
have the extra thing on the
side, who is just a class

1208
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,800
teacher who's ploughing their
extra time into doing stuff like

1209
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,360
you said?
Do you sometimes feel like a bit

1210
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,280
of a fraud for saying, oh just
don't do it knowing that we

1211
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:31,840
could not do it and make money
another?

1212
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:32,800
One, I felt like a bit of a
snob.

1213
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,440
Yeah, or, or, you know,
basically what would you say to

1214
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,880
someone who doesn't have that
like that option to put their

1215
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:40,400
time into something?
Do you know what?

1216
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,360
I'm honest and I do think I say
this now because there has been

1217
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,800
a time where I just like, I just
shun it and it would almost be a

1218
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,000
bit condescending.
So I don't do middle leadership.

1219
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,440
I don't need to because I run a
business and make money outside

1220
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,480
the Yeah, that is obviously
horribly condescending.

1221
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,000
Even say that what I sent, what
I say to people now is why are

1222
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:56,640
you doing it?
That is it.

1223
00:47:56,720 --> 00:47:58,440
That is it.
And if it's I want to work out

1224
00:47:58,440 --> 00:47:59,800
that I say, cool, good luck, go
for the job.

1225
00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:01,320
Nice one.
If it's.

1226
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,040
Oh, I just, that's what I'm
supposed to do, right?

1227
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,240
I've been to class teacher for
10 years and they're they're

1228
00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:06,360
asking me to do it.
They think I'll be good.

1229
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:07,880
I'm supposed to do that, right?
Don't do it.

1230
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:09,160
Then don't do it.
If you're happy.

1231
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:10,120
Are you happy as a class
teacher?

1232
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:11,120
Yeah.
I love being a class teacher.

1233
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:12,400
Cool.
Do you want all this extra

1234
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:13,840
responsibility?
Not really.

1235
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:15,600
But they think I should do it
because I've been doing teaching

1236
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,000
for 10 years.
Don't do it.

1237
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,000
Stop, though.
The money's not going to change

1238
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,480
your life whatsoever.
It's not going to change your

1239
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:22,960
life.
You will be more stressed.

1240
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:24,240
You'll have more work going to
do.

1241
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,560
I don't know.
You might like it as a risk, but

1242
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:28,640
I tell you what, from the
majority of people I've known in

1243
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:32,240
my life who have fallen into it
for that reason, they absolutely

1244
00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:34,440
hate it and then went out.
Flip the mindset.

1245
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,400
Being a class teacher, I I say
is enough.

1246
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:39,360
OK.
And I hate saying is enough

1247
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,280
sometimes because it sounds
like, oh, it's low.

1248
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,400
It's it's a low amount, but it's
just about right.

1249
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:45,680
No, it's more than enough being
a class teacher.

1250
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:47,880
No one goes to an accountant.
I say, I was using an

1251
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:49,120
accountant.
Sorry, accountants out there.

1252
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,920
No one goes to accountants.
Say, are you just an accountant?

1253
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:54,440
Do you not have any extra
responsibility of in this

1254
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:56,200
business?
Are you not like leading A-Team

1255
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,360
or it's weird?
You're just an accountant.

1256
00:48:58,360 --> 00:48:59,760
OK, well, you've been doing it
for eight years.

1257
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:01,200
I don't know.
No, of course they're just an

1258
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:02,120
accountant.
They're an accountant.

1259
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:03,120
Great.
They're great at their job.

1260
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:04,080
They're great at.
Accountant.

1261
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:05,120
They're better at accounting
now.

1262
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,480
They were eight years ago.
The job is extremely complex and

1263
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:08,440
vast.
Absolutely.

1264
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:10,280
Yeah.
Thanks for grilling me there.

1265
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:11,720
That was good.
It's good to get into it, I

1266
00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:13,880
think, because I never want to
come across this condescending.

1267
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,520
No, but it's just interesting
from my point of view, knowing

1268
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,160
you were drilled thinking into
doing that because I was never

1269
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:23,160
on your level whatsoever, but
watching you almost flip past

1270
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,040
me.
But you really, really wanted to

1271
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:27,400
do it and now you couldn't want
to do it less in terms of all

1272
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,000
that kind of stuff.
You're it should be interesting

1273
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,000
to watch that.
And I've always wondered whether

1274
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,440
it was because of the situation
or not, because again, I'm going

1275
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,200
back to what you did, you
actually were on a proper middle

1276
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,440
leadership team, weren't you?
In terms of when you, I know

1277
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,800
when you went to a second
school, you were very much

1278
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,720
involved in that team of people
who were driving something that

1279
00:49:45,720 --> 00:49:47,760
had had a bit of an extra
responsibility.

1280
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,200
And I'd say that was very much
middle leadership kind of role.

1281
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,520
I've personally never, apart
from maths lead, I've never

1282
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,720
really been in charge of year
groups, phases, curriculums or

1283
00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:56,960
anything like that.
You, you were very much on the

1284
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,600
ground.
And from your experience then

1285
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,360
you you would say it's not worth
it?

1286
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:06,600
No, that that was the worst year
of my life in terms of like, I

1287
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:08,080
really struggled mentally that
year.

1288
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,960
Like that was the worst, worst.
I'm not, I'm not, it's not other

1289
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:11,960
people.
I'm not actually trying to say

1290
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:13,000
that.
No, no, no, no, no.

1291
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,040
But for me personally, it was
the worst.

1292
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,200
It was the worst year.
That's not my life, that's meant

1293
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:18,880
to say my career.
The worst year in my career.

1294
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,200
I really, really struggled.
And it was because I was at the

1295
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:25,520
highest level I'd been in terms
of middle leadership and with

1296
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,360
lots of responsibilities that I
just could not fulfil.

1297
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,640
It was way too much.
And we, and while business was

1298
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,320
in, it's like second year at
this point and, and that was

1299
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:34,840
all, you know, we were ploughing
in time for that.

1300
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:36,440
And I was seeing both, they were
there.

1301
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,480
It was like the fork in the road
right in front of me.

1302
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,360
I was like, I can't fulfil this
middle leadership role unless I

1303
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,560
absolutely dedicate my life to
it right now.

1304
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:45,880
That's how much time it's
requiring of me.

1305
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:49,040
And we've got this business
where I was like, like, we can't

1306
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,680
grow this business unless we
absolutely dedicate our lives to

1307
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:53,560
it on the weekends and evenings
and it won't grow.

1308
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,040
And I was at this horrible fork
in the road where I had both

1309
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:57,480
and.
Your legs are just getting

1310
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:58,880
split.
You're just going to like do the

1311
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:00,400
splits trying to go down both
roads.

1312
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,360
I think, I think I nearly had a
breakdown that year.

1313
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,360
Like I recognise as close as it
gets for my own mind and

1314
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,400
everyone's different, but I was
close.

1315
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,080
I give, I quit.
It's a good job.

1316
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,000
I put my notice in.
I put my notice in by last like

1317
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,480
3 months because I was like I
knew I recognised.

1318
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,560
I was like, I will implode if I
keep trying to if I even try to

1319
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:19,160
do this.
And I chose the business.

1320
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:20,800
You know, I went, I went, I got
rid of all those.

1321
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:22,600
I said to myself, I don't want
to be a middle leader now.

1322
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,160
This is not the road for me.
I just want to go and be a class

1323
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,040
teacher and run our business.
That's what I want.

1324
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:28,840
To do that's the moment where
I'd say for you, I was just

1325
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,720
like, OK, he absolutely has
stepped off that yeah, yeah,

1326
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,800
yeah, absolutely off that waggon
doesn't want to do anymore now

1327
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,480
it's really interesting and
you've got experience of it.

1328
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,480
And when we did this episode, I
wanted, I wanted to get into

1329
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:43,360
your head because there's a lot
of people out there who I really

1330
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:45,840
want to kind of talk to right
now.

1331
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,960
And it's just those people you
spoke about earlier who feel

1332
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:52,040
like they have to do something.
They're feeling pressure.

1333
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:54,680
They go to family events and
they ask, are you leading a year

1334
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:55,120
group?
Yeah.

1335
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:56,640
Or are you in?
What are you in charge of?

1336
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:01,760
And it's about being emboldened
enough to say no, no, I teach

1337
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:03,320
the children.
Basically men by the way,

1338
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,680
apparently men have that just, I
mean, look at the data.

1339
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,400
Men feel that pressure more.
Well, it's both ways, isn't it?

1340
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:11,040
They want it more in general.
Like you started your career,

1341
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:12,400
I'm gonna be a head teacher.
More men.

1342
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,960
I think it's because of the.
And it's both, isn't it?

1343
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,040
I don't know which ones which,
but you're absolutely right.

1344
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,800
There is far more of an
expectation when I go and speak

1345
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,560
to family members and stuff
where the business has kind of

1346
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,160
taken that Flack off.
So if they if they would talk to

1347
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,040
me about something, they'll be
like, well, what are you doing

1348
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:30,560
in schools?
Oh, I'm just part time now.

1349
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:32,920
Like what?
Why?

1350
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,560
You're not the deputy head.
Yeah, you're you're 26 and

1351
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:36,600
you're not in charge of the
trust.

1352
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:37,840
What's going on?
I'm 26.

1353
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,240
It's like, what about that?
Was I 26?

1354
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:42,440
But yeah, there is there is a
pressure.

1355
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:43,920
Absolutely there is an
expectation.

1356
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,320
But all, you know, all genders
feel that for sure when they get

1357
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,640
to a certain age. 30 for me was
it was a big one, not going to

1358
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:52,200
lie.
When I got when I turned to 30,

1359
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,360
I did never thought when I was
in my late 20s, thirty would be

1360
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,480
a thing for me.
I always thought it's just a

1361
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:02,120
number that's easy as people
worry about 30, what's going on.

1362
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,600
It turns out it's not a thing
that you necessarily inherently

1363
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,880
believe yourself.
It's from external.

1364
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,160
It's external pressure is why
you end up feeling that way.

1365
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,920
Because I got towards 30 and I
was like, I am 30.

1366
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:18,320
I am no closer whatsoever to
being at the top of this ladder

1367
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,400
in the profession I chose.
Yeah, right.

1368
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,480
And that's a real pressure that
was externally put on me.

1369
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,480
I didn't care because.
At the end of the day, if our

1370
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,280
business fails or stops for any
reason, yeah, your back's just

1371
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,080
what I want, yeah.
Yeah, and you know what?

1372
00:53:31,240 --> 00:53:34,440
I have to be OK with that
because I am OK with that.

1373
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:36,000
And that sounds like a stupid
sentence.

1374
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:38,640
I am OK with that.
I'd like being a classroom

1375
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:40,560
teacher.
I've made these choices.

1376
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,600
I can't let external pressures
are what other people think and

1377
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,360
perceive make me feel a
different way.

1378
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:51,720
Because the only reason I'd be
annoyed at myself is if I got

1379
00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:54,200
annoyed that other people saw me
as lesser.

1380
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,520
Yeah, I you know, and.
And as soon as I feel that way,

1381
00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:59,080
I know I've caved into what
other people.

1382
00:53:59,080 --> 00:53:59,840
Might be.
Yeah, exactly that.

1383
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:01,360
So I don't want to let those
people win.

1384
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,040
And then if for a reason I did
just become a teacher again, do

1385
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:04,560
you know what?
Great.

1386
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,120
And then I could from then
choose what I wanted to do.

1387
00:54:07,240 --> 00:54:09,280
It's never too late.
But I don't want to be middle

1388
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:11,120
leader.
I don't want to be an SLT.

1389
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:12,920
It's not.
Do you know what I want to do?

1390
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,720
I want to teach the kids.
I want to do my great gifted and

1391
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:18,080
talented group every week.
I want to be around them when

1392
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:20,160
they learn something new.
I want to have those Eureka

1393
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:23,160
moments.
And being anything above class

1394
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:24,760
teacher means I get less of
that.

1395
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:26,960
And if I don't get less of it,
it means I'm more stressed

1396
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:28,200
because I've got to do the job
outside.

1397
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:30,120
So for me it's it's just a lose
lose.

1398
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:32,880
Either I have less time teaching
the kids and I have a more

1399
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:36,360
adamantly role which I don't
really want, or I have the same

1400
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,120
amount of time teaching the
kids, which I love but I'm

1401
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,920
stressed as hell and absolutely
knackered because I'm doing all

1402
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,440
my work outside of it.
It's a it's a lose, lose.

1403
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:45,920
Such a catch 22 in teaching,
isn't it 'cause you know what,

1404
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,640
we need SLT like that.
We need, we need you to be SLT.

1405
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,440
We need SLT that love teaching
so much that they actually want

1406
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,240
to be in the classroom all the
time still and, and not SLT that

1407
00:54:55,240 --> 00:54:57,960
lose touch because they're not
in the classroom at all anymore

1408
00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:59,840
and they've not been in the
classroom for eight years, 10

1409
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:01,080
years.
Like that's when you start to

1410
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,080
get those SLT that are totally
out of touch and made these

1411
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,400
decisions that don't make any
sense and class teachers

1412
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:06,520
disagree with.
But you know, I think about our

1413
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:08,600
school, we've got in our
assistant head who is, who is

1414
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:11,040
probably like the most, one of
the most prominent people in our

1415
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:12,160
school.
You know, she does so much for

1416
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,880
our school and I have a lot of
respect for her, but she she has

1417
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:16,760
the same opinion as you because
I often say to her, come on, go

1418
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:17,760
when are you going to be a head
teacher?

1419
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:20,040
Like you're you're absolutely
the candidate for it, Like

1420
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:21,120
you're, you should be a head
teacher.

1421
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,160
And she often will reflect and
be like, I just don't want to

1422
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,120
lose the kids, Like I don't want
to not be in the class with the

1423
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:27,240
kids.
And it's the same as you.

1424
00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:30,640
Like she she has that battle of
I like being in in control and

1425
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,040
making big decisions, but I just
love being in front of the kids

1426
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:35,360
and I just wish every school had
SLT.

1427
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,160
I like that because I know a lot
of schools don't and it's a huge

1428
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:40,440
divide.
Isn't well, our, our deputy head

1429
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,320
teacher at our school, we, we
always talk about schools in

1430
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:45,280
general.
We're never talking about our

1431
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,840
school.
Our deputy head teacher, he

1432
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,680
taught some English.
I think it's my second year in

1433
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:52,160
the schools.
About four or five years ago

1434
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:55,360
now, he taught, he took over an
English set for various reasons.

1435
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:56,600
We just needed someone to teach
that.

1436
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,640
And he loved it.
And you can see he was in his

1437
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,080
elements because his priority is
the kids.

1438
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,080
And you can just tell he's taken
on this role, maybe accidentally

1439
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,840
over the years where you get
more, give more, give more, Sen

1440
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:10,960
lead, blah, blah, blah.
And then suddenly you find

1441
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:12,760
yourself out the classroom
because you can't physically do

1442
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:15,600
that job anymore.
And there's two groups of people

1443
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:16,480
there.
The group of people are like,

1444
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:18,080
cool, Get Me Out the classroom.
I just want to be in charge,

1445
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:19,720
want to have all these things.
Yes, cool, cool, cool.

1446
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:22,840
Invariably they become the toxic
SLT.

1447
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:24,680
Yeah, who don't care anymore.
And just like, yeah,

1448
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,320
data-driven.
Yeah, this that this.

1449
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:27,400
I don't care what you think
anymore.

1450
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:28,840
I've got to get this dude out of
not.

1451
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:29,840
Always but.
Yeah.

1452
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:31,480
No, no, no.
More likely to more.

1453
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:33,240
Likely.
And then you have the SLT who

1454
00:56:33,240 --> 00:56:35,920
yearn to be in the classroom,
who want to be in the classroom,

1455
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:38,040
who enjoy being around the kids,
who want the best for the

1456
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,520
children, who in general, I find
are more approachable.

1457
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:43,320
Yeah.
And a bit more sympathetic when

1458
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,560
you go to them and say, God, I
love teaching.

1459
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:48,200
But all of this stuff, man, I
feel open enough to say that I,

1460
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,760
I've had conversations with SRT
in my school before where I've

1461
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,760
said to them directly, I love
teaching.

1462
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:57,080
I hate marking and planning.
I hate it because it's in my own

1463
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,320
time and I really don't like it.
And I've got an open enough like

1464
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:02,360
conversation.
And I feel like I can say that

1465
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:04,240
to my leaders and they can
understand it.

1466
00:57:04,240 --> 00:57:06,840
And they won't just put you in
that black book of of do all

1467
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:08,040
this teachers not working hard
enough.

1468
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,160
I'm going to skirt around to
finish off now and kind of

1469
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:15,360
finish on a big question, which
it is kind of linked to this,

1470
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:17,000
but I guess it's separate as
well.

1471
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:18,920
OK.
And I and I'll point your honest

1472
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:20,760
opinion and I'll give you mine
too.

1473
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:22,360
And I'll start with mine if you
drive with mine first.

1474
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:25,800
So you just tell me with all
this in mind with the idea that

1475
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:27,800
being a classroom teacher is
where we want to be.

1476
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,000
OK?
Being in class is what we love

1477
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,200
doing, but the idea of going
further in a broken system

1478
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:35,560
doesn't really appeal to us.
And the fact we have a business

1479
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:40,680
that's growing is the next
logical step that we have to

1480
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:48,760
take to quit teaching.
That's a that's a big question.

1481
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,160
Do you already have an opinion
form so I can have some time to

1482
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:53,040
think?
Yeah, I don't mind talking about

1483
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:54,080
it.
It's something I've been

1484
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:56,960
thinking about.
It's a big thing and we can do

1485
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:58,120
an episode on it later down the
line.

1486
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:00,760
Yeah, I love teaching.
We can't fake this.

1487
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:02,440
We get messages from people all
the time.

1488
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:04,560
We always worry we're a bit too
negative sometimes.

1489
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:05,280
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I get.

1490
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:08,200
We get messages from people all
the time saying, oh, my God,

1491
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:09,560
thank you.
You know, I'm a teacher.

1492
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:11,840
I feel stressed, overwhelmed.
You're really honest about the

1493
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:13,200
role.
You're really honest about the

1494
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:15,520
job and how hard it is.
But you're also really

1495
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:16,760
passionate.
And we can tell that we're both

1496
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:17,960
really passionate.
Yeah.

1497
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:23,000
I worry massively that I will
quit soon.

1498
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,240
And when I say worry, it's
because I love teaching.

1499
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:27,800
Yeah, I absolutely love
teaching.

1500
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,000
And if I quit teaching, I'm
really scared.

1501
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:33,520
I'll be honest that I will never
be able to replace that.

1502
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:36,120
Being in front of the kids and
teaching them, I love that more

1503
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:39,400
than anything that that the fact
that's my job, I feel is lucky.

1504
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:41,720
Yeah, yeah.
Everything else that comes with

1505
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,040
it and the idea that the
progression is no longer there

1506
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:45,120
for me.
Now I'm at the top of the pace

1507
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:47,800
scale.
I can't logically look at it for

1508
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:49,640
much longer and say, OK, I'll
carry on.

1509
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:52,520
Something has to give.
And it's both because of the

1510
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:54,680
system that we've just spoken
about how middle leadership's

1511
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:58,240
not worth it to me to get to SLT
and also the fact we have our

1512
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:00,240
business as well.
And the fact that being a class

1513
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:01,720
teacher is still tough as well.
It's tough.

1514
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:03,920
It's not like it's an easy thing
you can just sit on.

1515
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,720
The next 25, no.
And even though we're part time,

1516
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:09,800
I still, you know, the mental
load is genuinely the same

1517
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:11,960
because I've still got to be on
top of the whole planning

1518
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:13,040
because I need to know what The
thing is.

1519
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,280
I still need to be on top of the
whole class and all their needs.

1520
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:17,320
It's not like I suddenly have
half the class to worry about

1521
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:20,240
all of that mental cognition.
That mental load is the same.

1522
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:22,040
I'm just literally not in the
building as much.

1523
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:23,680
And I do a bit less planning and
a bit less marking.

1524
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:28,120
I I, I worry about it because I
look at it and I think, I, I

1525
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:31,960
think eventually I'm going to
have to leave the classroom and

1526
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:35,600
I'm going to have to forgo what
I love doing because they'll

1527
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:38,000
become a point where I'm just
like, can't get much more out of

1528
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:40,000
this job.
Can't have the progression I

1529
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:41,920
need.
The business can't grow anymore.

1530
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:45,760
Business can't be a great time.
Yeah, I'm worried it's going to

1531
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:47,640
happen.
And I want everyone to know that

1532
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,200
if I ever did, it would be a
hard decision for me.

1533
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,040
But I think it might end up
happening at some point in the

1534
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,280
future, I don't know when.
Yeah, it's tough.

1535
00:59:56,280 --> 01:00:00,200
I want to bring it back down to
despite everything I say right

1536
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:06,680
about money, you don't.
I think every teacher really has

1537
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:08,640
at least a part of their brain
that's like, I'm not doing this

1538
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:10,440
for the money, of course, even
though I always say of course

1539
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:11,800
we're doing for the money.
Like we do actually need to

1540
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:12,440
live.
We are.

1541
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:14,400
We are doing it because we need
money as well.

1542
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:16,520
But there is always a part of
you, isn't there?

1543
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:19,560
That's like.
I do just love it though, and

1544
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,360
like you said, I love being with
the class.

1545
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:27,000
So I think that the business is
getting to a point where we are

1546
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:29,520
back to, I'm feeling like we're
back to the point where we work

1547
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:31,360
five days a week, we work
evenings, we work weekends

1548
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:32,560
again, that's where I feel like
we're at.

1549
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:36,280
And now we've got kids.
I'm way, way more reluctant to

1550
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:38,560
do like less.
No more reluctant to do that.

1551
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:41,360
I'm less inclined, I should say,
to do that because I want to

1552
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:42,360
spend.
I don't want to be absent

1553
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:43,520
father.
I don't want to be that.

1554
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:45,720
Like I've seen too much of that.
I don't want to be that I want

1555
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:48,240
to be part of and I know you're
exactly the same part of our

1556
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:52,480
kids lives, a huge part of it.
And I'm sort of like, think of

1557
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,680
everything in mind the business,
the tangible growth of the

1558
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:57,240
business, right?
That I can get that kick out of

1559
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:59,480
like the business is growing in
the same way you might get a

1560
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:01,440
kick out of getting a promotion
at work, which I'm not going to

1561
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:04,160
do right.
I get those things from from the

1562
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:06,240
business.
I get I get the finances from

1563
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:07,760
the business.
I get the kick of like growth.

1564
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,480
I get all of the responsibility
and that head teacher feeling of

1565
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:11,760
the business because we're
running it.

1566
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:14,480
I get all of those things
fulfilled from the business.

1567
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:16,240
But it's getting to a point
where we can't do any more of

1568
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:17,760
that unless we unless we have
more time.

1569
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:22,520
But in teaching, regardless of
the money, I get the ultimate

1570
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:25,040
satisfaction of of watching kids
learn.

1571
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:27,800
So it's a horrible crossroads
that we're at where

1572
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:32,080
realistically we need to reduce
our timetable more at school if

1573
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:34,360
we want to continue growing our
business and spending more time

1574
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:38,520
with our kids, our own kids.
So yeah, I don't know.

1575
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,120
I think it is going to get to
the point where we have to, we

1576
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:43,120
have to and it'll be really hard
and we'll have to replace it

1577
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:44,640
with something.
Yeah, and there's a lot, there's

1578
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:46,240
a lot of teachers out there feel
the same way.

1579
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:48,440
I wanted to talk about it
basically because I struggle

1580
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:50,840
with it.
I sit and I think, how would I

1581
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:56,640
feel in my last week or day or
assembly, knowing I'm not

1582
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,400
teaching anymore?
I think I'd be horrified.

1583
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:01,120
Yeah, you'd be crying.
I would be crying.

1584
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:02,680
Yeah.
Yeah, I would because I cry

1585
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:05,840
everything but.
It's a big quick deal.

1586
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:07,360
This question, this episode has
gone.

1587
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:09,240
On no it's deep at the end
that's gone deep.

1588
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:11,840
I don't talk about much more
about it but I just thought I'm

1589
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:13,320
interested in listeners views as
well.

1590
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:15,320
Are you in a similar situation
to us?

1591
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,000
You've been teaching for so
long, you get into a rut after a

1592
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:21,720
bit because even the the right
ends with you either taking this

1593
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:23,720
job you don't want in middle
leadership and you end up more

1594
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:26,280
stressed than ever before.
I'm very reluctant to do that.

1595
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:28,680
Yeah, yeah.
It would be interesting to know

1596
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:31,280
if you're in a position even
just literally like realise

1597
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:32,560
stripping it back as far as
possible.

1598
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:35,000
You're a, you're a teacher and
you think you don't want to do

1599
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,200
it anymore for whatever reason,
or you think you you think you

1600
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:39,000
shouldn't do it anymore for
whatever reason, but you're

1601
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:40,800
conflicted about that.
I'd love to hear from that

1602
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:43,440
because that will help us out,
I'm sure, in a long term.

1603
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:46,520
I've heard a lot of, you know,
people taking a role and within

1604
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:49,400
three months being like, I knew
this would be bad.

1605
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:52,160
And it is.
And it's really awkward because

1606
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:54,120
it's October and you're just
like, this is awful.

1607
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:55,760
What could happen for us, right?
Let's say we do it.

1608
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:57,400
Let's say we go, no, we're
going, we're just going to work

1609
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,240
on our business for time now and
we're not going to teach

1610
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:01,800
anymore.
We might make more money, right?

1611
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:05,680
Be like, just way less happy.
Yeah, less satisfied with our

1612
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:07,840
lives and which is a real thing
because money isn't everything.

1613
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:09,640
We've No, it's not.
We wouldn't be here doing a

1614
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:12,000
teacher podcast and being
teachers if money was

1615
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:13,480
everything.
We could have spent the last

1616
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:14,720
hour doing something, you know
what I mean?

1617
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:17,120
But no, we love teaching.
We're passionate about teaching.

1618
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:19,080
We want to talk about teaching,
help teachers.

1619
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:21,760
Yeah, we're really passionate.
Everyone loves having money, of

1620
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:24,600
course they do, but I do also
like being happy more.

1621
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:27,760
Yeah, well, you know, teachers
accepted A5 or are about to

1622
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:31,480
accept a 5.5% pay rise.
Junior doctors got 22%.

1623
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:34,200
It's not all about the money for
the teachers.

1624
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:36,160
We could have kicked up a fuss
and kept going.

1625
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:38,840
Our money's been cut by more
than that over the last 1012

1626
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:40,680
years.
There is still an underlying

1627
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:44,360
current, rightly or wrongly,
where it's like, I'm OK, I'm all

1628
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:46,280
right, there's got to be a
point.

1629
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:47,560
No, I don't know.
I'm worried I'll.

1630
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:49,600
Be deep at the This has got very
deep.

1631
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:51,080
I'm really in my head right now,
so.

1632
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:53,880
We finish that.
Less Yeah.

1633
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:55,320
Think about being a middle
leader.

1634
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:57,720
Just weigh out the.
Oh yeah, I was about with the

1635
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:58,720
leadership.
Yeah, let's bring it back.

1636
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:00,800
Weigh out the pros and cons.
Just really think about why

1637
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:02,840
you're doing it.
If it's a stepping stone for

1638
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:04,040
you, do you know what?
It probably is the right

1639
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:06,120
decision if you, if you're being
pressured into it because you

1640
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:07,720
think that's what you're
supposed to do after a certain

1641
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:10,200
amount of years, really, really,
really think before you jump

1642
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:12,480
into that role because it might
end up being not what you want

1643
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:13,640
at all.
And make sure you're in the

1644
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:17,360
right environment because quite
often these are used as carrots.

1645
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,960
Debate someone to stay and do
something and you're like, yeah,

1646
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,200
it's a stepping stone, But in
that school, it's not.

1647
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:24,640
If you ever.
Do you ever watch Takeshi's

1648
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:26,640
Castle?
Yeah, to go across the stepping

1649
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:29,200
stones, it could be one of those
that's fake and you just sink,

1650
01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:30,280
OK.
It's not actually a stepping

1651
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:31,800
stone.
It's a fake stepping stone.

1652
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:33,280
They're saying it so you could
just stay on.

1653
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:35,360
They don't want to lose you.
You go sinking.

1654
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:37,840
Oh God, you're out to Keshi's
castle.

1655
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:39,920
Sorry everything you said is
ruined because all I can think

1656
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:41,680
about now is driving around a
little car at the end of the

1657
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:43,480
water pistol.
But it's a good, it's a good

1658
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:45,560
analogy, isn't it, For climbing
the ladder really, really,

1659
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:47,400
really hard get to the end, you
lose anyway, see.

1660
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:48,640
The ladder.
Someone's telling me if you go

1661
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:50,200
on that stone, you'll be one
closer to the end.

1662
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:51,720
You won't know because you're
full.

1663
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:53,880
Love that, cheers.
Nice negative ending.

1664
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:55,760
Oh no, not at all.
Teaching.

1665
01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:57,240
It's amazing.
I mean, that was really positive

1666
01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:59,600
actually, weirdly, because we
talk about how much we love TT.

1667
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:01,400
Yeah, crazy I.
Hope so, yeah.

1668
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:03,480
Anyway, I'm going to.
Go and I need to go and sit down

1669
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:05,240
for a few hours now.
Can you give us a review please?

1670
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:07,440
Also that yeah.
Cheers.

1671
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:07,840
See ya.