Ep 194: Q&A: Reading For Pleasure Gimmicks, Flimsy Behaviour Policies & Wellbeing Fads

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Hello everyone, welcome back to
another episode of TC Repeats.

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My name is Dylan and my name is
Hayden.

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And this is a question and
answer episode.

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As always on a Monday starting
off your week, right?

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You're on the way to school,
work, walking, whatever.

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You're part time.
You're not.

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I don't know, I don't know what
you're doing, but you know

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you're about to listen to this
fantastic question and answer

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from our lovely community.
You can join our WhatsApp down

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below.
It's completely free and you get

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to submit questions.
Why don't leave us A rating as

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well whilst you're here?
You've not even listened to it

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yet.
Just assume it'll be 5 stars.

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Yeah, go on, Hayden Stars.
Off, if you've listened to other

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ones, then you can give us five
stars for that anyway.

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Right.
So there's a win win.

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It's a win win.
Precisely.

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All right, jumping in then first
question.

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My school has just introduced a
shout out wall and I've started

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putting fruit out in the staff
room.

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I'm only laughing because I know
your reaction already.

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By the way, I'm not laughing.
I know what's happening.

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I'll cut to you.
I'm not laughing.

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Yeah, I've started putting fruit
out in the staff room.

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That is free for anyone who
wants it.

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It's nice all of this is being
implemented by our well-being

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lead as a way to boost
well-being among staff.

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Am IA Scrooge for not buying
into this at all.

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I know for a fact that the
reasons people have for their

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well-being being low is nothing
to do with having a free banana,

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but more to do with draconian
policies in planning and

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marking.
And.

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I've I've always found horrible
marking policies that keep me

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there for two hours just breeze
by kind of grapes next to me we

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go one tick 1 grape got me for
it.

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This is why I was smirking.
I'm looking up at you because I

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knew.
I knew.

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Joe, this is a classic case of
yeah, that this is a classic

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case of when something's
introduced which is obviously

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nice.
Yeah.

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Isn't too lovely.
Like, you can have two thoughts

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here.
It's obviously nice to call

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someone out for doing a good
job.

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That's a lovely thing.
What's that?

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Free fruit?
That's a great nice thing.

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It's good.
It's lovely.

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It's when that's conflated with
if someone dares to suggest that

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that maybe isn't going to solve
well-being, someone goes, don't

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you want the nice things?
You're just so negative all the

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time.
I put a lovely thing on the wall

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up there to say thank you for
printing my sheets for me.

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Does that not make you happy?
That's not the core of my

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problem in this school, isn't
that there's a well-being board

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where I can shout someone out
and have a banana whilst I'm

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doing it.
OK.

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Oh my God, two things can
happen, do I?

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Think someone doesn't like
fruit?

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I'm I'm partial to a pair.
But it's not going to.

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Solve if my if my well-being is
poor in a school, it's it's

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usually down to other things
like in this question, which

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they've used the word draconian.
One of my favourite words to use

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draconian policies or I'm
planning on marking.

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That's what's pushing teachers
to exhaustion.

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Yeah, it's not.
It's not whether I've got a an

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acceptable spread of fruit on
the on the table, and it's not.

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I'm sorry.
Yeah, I preferred it when it was

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doughnuts.
Thank you.

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Yeah, you're, you're in your
last legs and you go to the star

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room, you're like, they've taken
the doughnuts.

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Yeah, it's not even a sprinkled
doughnut.

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What do you think?
Am I being hot?

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You're being quite funny like
that.

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That's.
A nice compliment.

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Dylan's been funny for the first
time.

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We nearly made it to 200
episodes without being funny.

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So there we go.
I try and be reasonable.

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OK, is this person being a
Scrooge or being a bit bummed

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out by it?
Right.

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A tiny, tiny bit, Scrooge.
That's it.

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Only a tiny bit.
For all the reasons you just

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said.
I think it, I think if your

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opinion was this is all
pointless, don't bother doing it

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at all is a bit a bit harsh to
the other side in terms of like,

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like you said, it is still nice
to do these things.

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It's still nice to provide your
staff with some fruit if the

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baseline was nothing before.
It's still nice to shout out

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people if no one was being
shouted out before.

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But I do agree with the overall
sentiment, which is it is

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solving nothing though.
It's solving nothing like no

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problems are being solved.
It's a nice addition to the

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school.
It's almost separate.

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It gets banded in with, oh, this
is part of the solution to

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well-being.
No, it's not.

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The well-being problem sits over
here, right?

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This thing that you've
implemented is just a nice

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addition to other nice things
that might happen in the school.

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Like it actually has to me,
nothing to do with it.

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My well-being is not affected by
those things.

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My well-being is affected by,
like you said, the draconian

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policies that the workload, the
things that actually stress me

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out.
You don't like, I feel like you

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don't.
You don't counter stress by

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maintaining the things that
stress you out.

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But if you do an equal amount of
nice stuff that doesn't like

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counterbalance the stress, you
know what I mean?

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You just have nice things in
your life and also are still.

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Stressed the stress is still.
There you have to the only way

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to counter the stress is to cure
the thing that's that's causing

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the stress is my is probably
what I'm trying to say here.

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So yeah, unless you are as a
school also alongside this,

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because it is nice alongside
this trying to tackle the root

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issues of what's making your
staff feel like crap all the

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time, then you're not really
tackling this problem, you're

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just kind of superficially
saying something.

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And I do genuinely find that
when we get people right in

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about this, because it's not the
first time we've heard this, it

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normally comes under the caveat
of this is quite a toxic school.

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Not always, obviously, yeah, But
this is quite a toxic school.

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And this is their way of
pretending they're addressing a

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problem.
That's a very common thing.

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I hear this.
Because because the the other

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side to that is this, this does
exist in nice schools, right?

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To me, exactly.
To me, this is like this is like

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an air freshener.
OK, so these these no, genuinely

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these, these well-being room,
like there's a nice board,

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there's some fruit out that's
like an air freshener.

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You go into a room.
OK, might be a lovely room.

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Adding a bit of air freshener
will be nice, wouldn't it?

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It's a good.
No one would go.

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Why are you doing air freshener?
It's pointless.

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That's a lovely room.
And now it smells good.

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Yeah.
Imagine there's a pile of dog in

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the middle of the room.
And you walk in and you go, I'll

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solve this.
And you'll think, oh, great,

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they're gonna get rid of that
dog.

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They're gonna get rid of it
because it stinks.

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It's a horrendous room to be in
a hate.

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Or at least half it just.
Just walk in.

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Just get rid of it.
No, just get rid of it.

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Get complete.
Finally someone's come in.

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It's the well-being lead.
They're gonna come in.

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They're gonna get rid of this
pile of poo in the middle of the

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room, thank God.
And they come in with some

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Febreze and just spray it.
There you go.

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No, it doesn't work.
You.

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Yeah, But breeze.
Nice.

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Yeah, of course.
Yeah, it's great.

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Thank you.
But do you know it's going to

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keep permeating the smell of the
faeces from the dog that's in

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the middle of this room?
We're not addressing the

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problem.
We're just dressing it up.

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Oh, my God.
Like, you can have air freshener

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that's nice.
In another room where there's

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also no poo.
That's great.

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OK, that's a good analogy.
I hate how good that is annoys

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me how perfectly what that
summarises it, right.

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So I've been funny and I've
annoyed you.

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How good because it's true,
because like you said, like it

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was a really important point is
you can go into room that

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doesn't have the dog poop in it
and still and still spray the

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air freshener and it's still a
nice boost to that room.

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It's still a plus.
Exactly.

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But in the room where there's
dogs in the carpet in the

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middle, Yeah, it's not really
solving the issue.

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And everyone would just go, oh,
that's nice, thanks.

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They feel awkward because
they're what they're really

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thinking is, oh, that probably
wasn't the best thing to do.

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You dare to question it, the
person with the spray just goes.

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Don't you like Blossom?
Berries.

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Oh, turns out you like the
smell, do you?

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You'll live with that instead
then.

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So, so that, that, that
basically summarises my

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thoughts.
So funny is is OK, it can be a

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nice thing, but also not
remotely do the job you're

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pretending it does.
Yeah, definitely, definitely OK.

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That's it.
I feel like I feel like we've

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perfectly answered that.
I think it's the first question

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we've ever had in this podcast
where I feel like I'm totally,

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perfectly satisfied that we have
solved the issue and answered

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every anyone that has this
question, we've solved it for

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you.
Listen to what we just.

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Said And it's only taken
literally hundreds of questions

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at this point.
Right next one, let's have a

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read.
Last week a child child in my

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year eight class told me to fuck
off.

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Oh step straight in, there we
go.

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Not messing around this week are
we right?

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And was genuinely back in my
classroom within 30 minutes from

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the inclusion room with a broad
grin on their face.

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Not only did I feel completely
undermined as a professional,

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but every kid in my class was
then thinking oh it's OK,

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anything goes.
Why are we pretending this is

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the way to deal with behaviours
like this?

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It's actually a big question.
So yeah, I was just thinking.

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I was like, I could dive loosely
into this.

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But you don't wanna get
cancelled.

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I don't wanna get cancelled, OK?
I don't swear on this podcast

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for a start.
That's the first line I've

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cancelled now.
It's tricky, isn't it?

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Cuz my first thought as you were
reading it right was they came

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back after 30 minutes.
My genuine first thought was,

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OK, maybe, maybe the thing that
needed to happen happened and

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we're trying to include this
child back into education.

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I don't necessarily have an
immediate issue with that.

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As soon as I heard with a broad
grin on their face, I was like,

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oh, now, now my.
It's crazy how quickly that

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flipped my opinion.
And then I was then thinking,

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yeah, that's completely
unacceptable.

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They're coming back in.
They have not that there's

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nothing to.
Happen.

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No apology.
No apology like they felt

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undermined.
I would feel undermined.

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I don't know about you, but if
that happened to me, I would

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feel undermined because because
I 30 minutes ago used my

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authority as a teacher to make
the decision that that person

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should no longer be in this room
for the sake of everybody else

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and themselves.
The fact they've come in 30

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minutes later, clearly nothing
has changed because they're

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coming in grinning is 1 showing
like it to me.

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It's like it's basically them
saying to me, ha ha, you try to

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enforce this rule and Get Me Out
of the class, but look where it

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look, I'm back.
Well, let's let's.

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I mean, to a degree, but when I
send someone out of the class,

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I, you know, them coming back in
isn't automatically bad to me.

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No, like like the the issues for
me comes not in the fact they've

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00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,040
come back.
Like it's that they've come

227
00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,360
back.
But there's no adult with them

228
00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,920
explaining, you know, what's or
seeing how they're getting on

229
00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:04,840
or, or seeing they settle back
in the class.

230
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,760
It's very much just like back to
being your problem.

231
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,800
There's no intermediate, like,
like professional in the middle

232
00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,160
to be like, well, I'm literally
delivering this lesson to this

233
00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,760
class now.
I I don't have the time and

234
00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,200
energy to solve this right now
at the level it needs to be

235
00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:19,840
because it would mean that I
have to stop my lesson.

236
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:21,960
Yeah, I would hope someone else
did that and then brought them

237
00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:23,560
back in.
And then there was an apology

238
00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:24,680
and then there was an
explanation.

239
00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:28,320
And then I know what happened.
Some kind of communication like

240
00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,360
the the act of them coming back
into the class probably I can

241
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,920
imagine can work.
There can be examples like that.

242
00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:34,640
OK.
Yeah, that's kind of.

243
00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:36,360
What I was trying to say, you
know, when I said when, when you

244
00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,520
started saying it, my first
thought was that and then the

245
00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,200
grin on the face, like, change
it for me a little.

246
00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,120
Bit but is it but but does it?
Do you care if they're happy or

247
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:44,920
not?
Like again, I can imagine

248
00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,600
something going out, something
happening and a kid like do I

249
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:49,920
want them to sulk for the rest
of the day?

250
00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:51,520
And that's the only way I'll be
happy as a profession.

251
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,760
I know under my.
But let's clarify this could be

252
00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:55,160
really clear.
The broad grin on their face.

253
00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,160
I very much I'm interpreting
that as like a a smarmy way with

254
00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,560
it smarmy look, not just a I'm
happy now like because that's.

255
00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:03,760
I have no problem with that.
He came in and gave me the look

256
00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:05,880
of like ner ner.
Yeah, like and was like.

257
00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:07,360
Being with the whole context.
Exactly.

258
00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,360
Because that's what I'm
imagining, the context of this

259
00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:10,640
question.
I'm imagining that's the case,

260
00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:11,680
right?
That's why they start, because I

261
00:10:11,680 --> 00:10:12,680
wouldn't feel on the mind
otherwise.

262
00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,600
They come in happy and start
getting on with the lesson.

263
00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,280
I'd be like, brilliant, yeah,
whoever.

264
00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:18,440
They've been out for 30 minutes.
They've done their job because

265
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,240
this, this person is now settled
and they're getting all of their

266
00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:21,880
work and they're happy.
That's the ultimate outcome.

267
00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,000
But if they're coming in and
showing off at the fact that

268
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,280
they're back in the class, yeah.
And greeting at the teacher like

269
00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,520
like I don't care.
Do you think there's a line

270
00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,800
where what happens means that
actually, do you know what, for

271
00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,480
this lesson, you shouldn't be
coming back in this is this

272
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,160
lesson done?
For example, you've got to

273
00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,320
remember the point here was a
child told a teacher to fuck

274
00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:39,160
off.
Yeah.

275
00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,320
Like it is.
Is that past the point of just

276
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,320
like, OK, why don't you off then
Basically, like obviously

277
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,360
wouldn't say that to the child,
but why don't you just get

278
00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,560
that's just ridiculous,
unacceptable completely.

279
00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:51,560
I think there is a line, yeah,
so.

280
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,960
Like in terms of as a teacher,
I'm just flipping it again, just

281
00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:56,240
trying to find where the line is
here.

282
00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,160
Is it acceptable if a child told
you to do that in the middle of

283
00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:00,880
the class?
I think it's well within the

284
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:02,720
right to the teacher to say,
cool, I'm not teaching you

285
00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:03,880
today.
Yeah, 100%.

286
00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,640
So, so in that case them coming
in can be do you know that's

287
00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:08,360
what I was getting at earlier.
Is there a line here?

288
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:09,280
It's another.
Yeah, exactly.

289
00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:10,880
That's why it's such complex
questions because there's so

290
00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:11,880
many ways you can think about
this.

291
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,200
But I absolutely do think that
teachers are human beings in

292
00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,480
there as well.
Like they're not just robots who

293
00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,840
just get on with, who work
perfectly efficiently all the

294
00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,240
time.
If a child told me to F off in

295
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,360
the middle of a lesson, it's
going to rattle me.

296
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,920
Of course I'm a human being.
And if I see them 30 minutes

297
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,320
later after I've just used the
school policy to remove them

298
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:29,840
from the room because it's
completely and totally

299
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,120
unacceptable and they come back
in 5 minutes later, I'm

300
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:33,960
obviously going to be not.
I'm obviously not just going to

301
00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:35,600
be like, oh, that hasn't crossed
my mind.

302
00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:37,120
I'm going to be thinking about,
oh, that's the child that just

303
00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,400
told me to F off, which is still
in my brain because I'm a human

304
00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:39,920
being.
But do.

305
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,000
You think I, I, I personally
think that as a professional you

306
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,080
should be able to
compartmentalise that and not be

307
00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,760
personally rattled by it.
The the the annoyance that would

308
00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:50,560
come from me and the reason I
would feel like it's

309
00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:52,560
unacceptable for them to come
back is not because I feel, oh,

310
00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:54,960
woe is me you told me to wear
for I feel so offended.

311
00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,600
It's more that that sets a
precedent that it's OK to do

312
00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,120
that and that that line has been
crossed by you and there's

313
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,240
seemingly no retribution
whatsoever.

314
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,280
The rest of the class see that
and think, well, why, why am I

315
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,000
doing this the way I can do what
I want now that that's what I I

316
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,000
I'd become.
I'd feel more rattled at the

317
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,120
president that it's setting of
what's acceptable rather than a

318
00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,000
person.
I I would not feel a personal

319
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,160
rattle at a 12 year old telling
me to have.

320
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:18,560
Off.
Yeah, OK, I guess I'm I'm going

321
00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:20,120
to try tie two things together
because I'm sort of in the

322
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,440
middle of that in in a way I
think I'm not saying I wouldn't.

323
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:24,280
No, no, I agree.
I.

324
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,840
I, I wouldn't, I I think there's
room as a professional to not

325
00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:29,960
feel personally offended by
something like that, but just

326
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:31,800
but still have a problem with it
on the wider.

327
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,160
Yeah, what you're saying is, is
a better expansion of what I'm

328
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,520
trying to say really, because I
I would be a little bit rattled

329
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:38,520
in terms of it would obviously
annoy me that someone told me to

330
00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,480
F off, but I would be able to
get over it and compartmentalise

331
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,400
as a teacher who's experienced
and deals with this sort of

332
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,680
stuff all the time.
But when they come back in and

333
00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:46,600
me being able to
compartmentalise is now just

334
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,720
back to completely lovey dovey.
Normal, normal, normal, I think

335
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:51,400
is the is the problem.
It's basically what you said.

336
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,280
It then sets the precedent of,
oh look, that person that told

337
00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,000
the teacher to F off has come
back in.

338
00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,160
The teacher seemingly is
completely fine with it.

339
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,440
Yeah, because actually you have,
you have compartmentalised and

340
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:01,920
you've moved on and you're not
going to ask the teacher be

341
00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:03,600
like, oh, I can't, I can't.
Look, now do that.

342
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,600
That child swore at me.
You're obviously going to deal

343
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,800
with it and compartmentalise it.
But the pressure that is set is

344
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,280
that child can come back in.
Everyone's OK with it.

345
00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:11,400
The teacher's completely fine
with it.

346
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:12,880
It hasn't affected them in
whatsoever.

347
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:14,760
Cool.
We all know that's how it works

348
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,240
now.
Yeah, I don't like that.

349
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:17,960
Yeah, yeah, sure.
No, it makes sense.

350
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,520
I'm it, it, there's, I guess
there's a wider point here we

351
00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,320
can just briefly touch on.
We've done so many episodes on

352
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,040
Behaviour.
It's actually some of our most

353
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:25,360
listened to episodes have been
on Behaviour.

354
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,000
So if you're on Spotify,
wherever you're listening to the

355
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,360
podcast, if you search Behaviour
at the top, they'll come up with

356
00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:30,960
a few episodes.
They're well listened to.

357
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,400
And I think we go into big
detail about restorative

358
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,080
practises in school where what
consequences can and can't be.

359
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,320
I don't think we need to rehash
all of that, but just in general

360
00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,720
that I think it's absolutely
fair enough to have a, a line of

361
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,800
respect for professionals where
we don't need someone coming

362
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,760
back and just saying to us, oh,
but it was just communication.

363
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:55,880
Honestly.
There's no level of

364
00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:57,640
communication that makes it
acceptable.

365
00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,880
There's a level of communication
that makes us be able to

366
00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:01,520
understand why maybe they did
that.

367
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,280
There might be some deep
underlying explanations as to

368
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,240
why that child thought that was
acceptable to do that point.

369
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:07,960
It might have been the
environment they've grown up in

370
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,040
where that's normal language.
It might have been something

371
00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,600
that happened that morning that
set them off be some underlying

372
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:14,760
needs that they have personally
and especially educational

373
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,920
needs, etc.
There are lots of explanations

374
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,440
as to why something can happen,
but we don't have to pretend as

375
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,800
a professional that.
Therefore I'm going to excuse

376
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,000
it.
There are some things that the

377
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,520
world won't change for you and
there has to be a line of well,

378
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,000
no matter what the reason is
behind this, you cannot tell a

379
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,240
teacher to fuck off in the
middle of the lesson and there

380
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,280
has to be something in place
that makes that really clear.

381
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:39,840
I'm going to understand you, I
get it.

382
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,720
I'm not trying to make you feel
awful all the time.

383
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,080
But there is a line here and and
just because XYZ doesn't mean

384
00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:47,600
that you can say that.
Absolutely.

385
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,080
There is a consequence and that
consequence is hard written.

386
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,120
It's hard coded with the the
main difference in like, yeah,

387
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,240
restorative practise and what,
you know, other practises,

388
00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,520
right.
It might just be there's a

389
00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,280
consequence some people are
happy with.

390
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:03,760
Cool, there's the consequence.
Go away, kid.

391
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,840
I don't want to address it and
I'm not going to do anything to

392
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,280
remotely help this situation.
Some people will say here's the

393
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:09,360
consequence, you've got to deal
with it.

394
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,120
I'm also going to do my absolute
best utmost to try and help you

395
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,040
and learn about the situation,
find out the root causes and do

396
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,160
something about that long term.
That's, that's the good, that's.

397
00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,960
Good practise both, isn't it?
I, I maybe I'm just naive here,

398
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:21,640
but I see both as the way to go
about it.

399
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,720
You have to, you have to have a
consequence that you hold to and

400
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,240
that is it.
There's no sorry, there's no

401
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:27,920
excuse, guys.
That is, you cannot do that.

402
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,680
There here is a consequence for
it, but alongside that, I'm

403
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,320
going to dig deep and trying to
find the personal reasons why

404
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,080
you're doing this, how I can
help you develop emotionally.

405
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,000
How can I how can I make sure it
doesn't happen again?

406
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,600
And that's going to be.
Different for every child, yeah.

407
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,120
It's, it feels like sometimes
schools go down the restorative

408
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,640
path, which is solely just about
helping the individual and

409
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:47,400
there's never any consequences
and spirals.

410
00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:49,600
It seems like there's some
draconian schools where it's

411
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,080
just like consequence,
consequence, consequence,

412
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,040
repeat, repeat offenders, repeat
offenders, repeat offenders.

413
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,080
When I was in school, it was the
same kids getting detention

414
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:56,720
every week.
Something was going wrong.

415
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,720
Clearly, clearly something was
going wrong.

416
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,200
For years there was the same
kids getting detention so

417
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,800
nothing was being addressed.
Both of these on their own to

418
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,880
me, seem insane to think that
that's suitable.

419
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,320
I agree there.
Has to be.

420
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:08,240
Both.
Yep.

421
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,280
OK, that's it.
That's that's exactly what I

422
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:11,160
think.
Exactly that.

423
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,000
So there you go.
Is that three things today

424
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:13,640
you've liked?
You're doing.

425
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,240
You're doing well today.
I'm impressed.

426
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:15,960
I'm not.
I'm not gonna.

427
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:17,240
Lie.
Well, I'll let you read this one

428
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,200
and yeah, try and get some
limelight, yeah.

429
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:20,120
What?
What?

430
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:21,920
I'll read it and you can answer
it perfectly and I'll agree.

431
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,080
OK, so no pressure.
No pressure if you oh here we

432
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,520
go, This is suits you, isn't it?
If you were the Education

433
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,120
secretary, what would be the top
of your agenda to change first

434
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,120
thing tomorrow?
That's probably the hardest

435
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,000
question to.
Answer.

436
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:38,960
That's a big question.
Is it harder because you're too

437
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:40,000
busy?
You think about the ego, You'd

438
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,680
get by.
Yeah, yeah, 100 percent, 100%.

439
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:43,040
I would go around with a big bad
saying.

440
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,440
No consequences for me.
Yeah, you do as I say, not as I

441
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,200
do.
OK, firstly, I'm going to

442
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,440
preface this for anyone
listening that if I don't say

443
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,400
the thing that you think's
really important, it doesn't

444
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,120
mean I don't think it's
important, because this question

445
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,560
asks for one thing.
So if I don't mention the phone

446
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,720
ban, for example, yeah, it
doesn't mean I didn't get that

447
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,079
phone ban.
Let me just make sure right now

448
00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:08,720
no one's getting annoyed.
And it's also because we're

449
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:09,880
talking about that in our next
episode.

450
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:11,119
OK?
So that's why, that's why you

451
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:12,079
mentioned that one.
That's true.

452
00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:14,560
That's true.
The number one thing I would

453
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,119
change tomorrow if I was the
education secretary.

454
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:24,119
Oh my God, this is so hard.
I would completely scrap Ofsted

455
00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:29,800
and from the ground up, build a
completely new way of still

456
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,040
keeping schools accountable, but
in a way that's supportive and

457
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,920
holistic and collaborative.
That is not rooted in judge

458
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,560
mental outcomes that that spark
fear across schools up and down

459
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:45,000
the country, but is built on
helping people improve and

460
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:46,920
pointing them in the right
direction to do so and giving

461
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:51,520
them tools to do so, actually
improving standards, not just

462
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,200
judging other schools.
And I don't think that any

463
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,840
amount of reforms within Ofsted
can make that the body that I

464
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,200
feel it needs to be because it's
going to be tinkering around the

465
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,600
edges.
It needs to be fully scrapped in

466
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,840
my opinion, get rid of it.
And I'm, and I'm not saying get

467
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:08,920
rid of it and hunky Dory schools
can do what they want because

468
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,760
schools have to be held
accountable to the highest of

469
00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:12,880
standards.
But there's a way to do that

470
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,880
that I think is collaborative,
helpful, and then still make

471
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,880
sure schools are giving children
what they need in a way that

472
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:22,800
actually improves standards.
Definitely.

473
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,040
We spoke about this a while ago
when we when we looked at the

474
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,440
Ofsted reforms.
I remember part of our

475
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,520
conversation was we can debate
and argue about all the changes

476
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,160
as much as you want, but like
ultimately what annoyed me and

477
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:38,280
maybe maybe you as well, was it
just, it needed to be scrapped

478
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,080
and rewritten from the ground.
It needed to, but we needed to

479
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,120
think outside the box.
And all we did was just kind of

480
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:44,200
repackage the existing box into
a slightly different format.

481
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:45,200
We're talking about parks,
didn't we?

482
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,200
We said we were in a park inside
the fence of the park, and we're

483
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,760
just going from between the
swings and the roundabouts and

484
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,680
the seesaw.
No, the park is the park.

485
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,400
Let's build a new park.
Everything is broken.

486
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,520
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly that,
exactly that.

487
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,040
So that's a good change.
I think that would be a very

488
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,680
worthwhile thing to do and also
rooted in you could do that.

489
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:05,680
Like there were some things I
was thinking of where I was

490
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,320
like, they're just idealistic.
Like if it's related to funding,

491
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,920
I'm like ultimately at the Ed Ed
SEC like I can't actually just.

492
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,000
Hello, Rachel.
Yeah, Yeah.

493
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,840
Do you know what we have?
Billions and billions of pounds.

494
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,680
Exactly right.
It's easier for us to sit there

495
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,880
and say do that, but.
But Rachel Rees would just turn

496
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,320
around and say no, Yeah, so.
Exactly that way as whereas with

497
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,920
Ofsted that is well within your
remit as Ed SEC to be like if I

498
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,240
want to make this change and
start reforming this however I

499
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:28,760
want to, you really could start
doing that.

500
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:29,880
Do you know what I mean?
I'm sure you'd get some

501
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,920
pushback, but you.
Could you could maybe there's

502
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,000
something there in terms of
maybe some issue that because

503
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:36,800
I'm not saying reform, I'm
saying scrap.

504
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,120
Yeah, I'm saying I'm saying
don't try and fix that, OK.

505
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,040
It's like imagine this, there's
a poo in the middle of the room.

506
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,080
But but the point is I don't
think it's worth trying to fix

507
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:50,960
that thing.
There comes a point where your

508
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,000
Hoover's broken, right?
It keeps breaking.

509
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:54,760
It's not it's not working
properly.

510
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,000
I'll get a new part.
I'll change that part of the

511
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:58,320
nozzle's gone.
It's changed the nozzle got the

512
00:19:58,320 --> 00:19:59,000
poo in it.
The suction.

513
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:00,880
It's got a big poo in the middle
of it.

514
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:01,840
I'll clean it out.
Right.

515
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:02,920
There comes the point where you
just.

516
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,320
Say behind the Hoover.
And that's what we need to do.

517
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:06,440
Do you know what I need?
A different brand.

518
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:07,840
Yeah, exactly.
I need a different brand and it

519
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,560
needs to be a washing machine
and it's not even I'm trying to

520
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,280
clean my clothes for Hoover this
whole time.

521
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:15,880
This whole time and I live in a
park.

522
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:17,760
And I keep, I keep trying to
actually how to fix the Hoover

523
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,640
and it's not making my clothes
any cleaner.

524
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:20,960
Turns out I need a washing
machine.

525
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,440
Yeah, it's kind of the same in
terms of you're trying to raise

526
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:24,680
standards in schools.
Yeah.

527
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:26,640
Using a tool which won't raise
standards whatsoever.

528
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:27,880
Yeah.
Yeah, you need to get a washing

529
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:29,040
machine that will raise
standards.

530
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:31,360
I'm loving these analogies
today.

531
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,120
They are just, they work, you
know, they do work.

532
00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:36,360
And I hope listeners, you don't
think we're just completely

533
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,080
insane.
Do you have you know, are you

534
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:40,920
going to do what you literally
said at the start and just.

535
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,520
Go yeah, no, no, no, no.
I, I had a couple in my mind.

536
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,400
Offset was one of them because I
think we talk about it a lot.

537
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,040
Another one interestingly was
was curriculum, but I feel like

538
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:50,440
they're already tackling that.
So I don't think.

539
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,280
They're going far enough.
I think we have to wait and see.

540
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,160
Almost like that's why I don't
really want to dive into that

541
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:56,400
too much.
The only other thing I had in my

542
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,840
mind, I don't know if it, I
don't know if it pushes too much

543
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,160
into the like the funding thing.
I'm I'm being unrealistic to me

544
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:03,520
is.
Like whenever I'm realistic on

545
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,160
this podcast, Yeah, of course we
say could be.

546
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,360
Yeah, exactly.
But like I feel like yours was a

547
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:09,680
really good one in terms of you
could just start doing it.

548
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,880
Sorry, I don't know, I'm too
nice you.

549
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,440
Feel like mine was a really.
Good one it was, it was and

550
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,160
great.
John, I might just do this on my

551
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,920
own, this podcast.
Yeah, yeah, You just have all my

552
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,640
thoughts.
You just say them first.

553
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:24,800
That's the problem.
I would have, said Ofsted.

554
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,680
I'm just, oh, you say them first
and I say Bell.

555
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,200
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So my 1 was Ofsted, but another

556
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:30,920
one for me.
Something to do something like

557
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,680
parents I think.
Benham been parents.

558
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,440
Been parents.
Yeah, yeah, there's clearly,

559
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,720
clearly, clearly and has been
for a long time an enormous

560
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,360
issue in terms of inclusion in
schools and how like the whole

561
00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:44,960
mainstream schools are catering
for every, every single person's

562
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,760
needs.
We've got all this new ISP stuff

563
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,160
coming out and the HTP reforms,
all the all this stuff coming

564
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,960
out the S with Sen and I'm like,
and I just don't think it's

565
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:54,480
right.
I look at that and I'm like,

566
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,200
parents are screaming out for
more support, Schools are

567
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,480
screaming out for more support.
And I don't think the Band-Aid

568
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,520
that we're starting to put on it
is actually going to be a good

569
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:03,560
fix.
If you want to know more about

570
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,440
that, just go back and literally
listen to the episodes where

571
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,680
we've talked about the SEND
reforms or any of our reels on

572
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,840
Instagram where we've done it
and we mocked it by way.

573
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,840
I mean, me, just me.
So that would be as I think if I

574
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,720
said tomorrow, that'd be the
first thing I'd want to start

575
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,440
diving into.
I'd be like, right, this is we

576
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,880
are not fixing this.
This is not the solution.

577
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,800
Again, maybe scrap how we're
looking at it right now, or at

578
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,560
least drastically rethink what
we are, what we genuinely think

579
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,800
we're going to do to actually
support every child who grows up

580
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,520
in our country.
I think you make a really good

581
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,640
point about funding because my
genuine opinion is that a lot of

582
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,720
what is being introduced via the
SEND white paper is a result of

583
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,320
the hands being tied on funding.
So, so I, I, I think it's a

584
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:45,920
great point where I completely
agree with you.

585
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:47,840
And I'm, I'm not saying it's
right, but I'm, what I'm saying

586
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,360
is I do look at some of the
reforms in the white paper.

587
00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:54,080
And I think the only reason that
this would make sense is if it's

588
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,000
because they're trying to make
something work in a system

589
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:57,640
that's already on the funds.
They don't have billions to

590
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,480
solve it.
Why else would we trying to

591
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,280
force children into mainstream
in a mainstream curriculum where

592
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,560
it feels like it's not the right
place for them?

593
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,960
And I think a lot of people feel
the same way.

594
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:09,280
Yep.
No, that's completely.

595
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,720
Fair enough, if only like it'd
be great we had the chance to

596
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,640
speak to the education I know
and ask her what her practise if

597
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:15,960
I.
Really.

598
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:16,960
Will.
We said this every day, didn't

599
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:18,400
we just sort of leave people
hanging?

600
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,680
It'd be crazy if we left people
hanging more, but it would be

601
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:21,880
great.
Yeah, it would be great if we

602
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,040
had the opportunity to go and
speak to.

603
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,520
Her in like 3 or 4 weeks time.
Yeah, that would be, it'd be

604
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,160
good.
Unfiltered questions and just

605
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,240
sort of ask what we want and.
That would be very good.

606
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,120
Footage.
But yeah, anyway, let's see.

607
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,880
Another question, yeah, OK.
How do you deal with a parent

608
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,680
who just does not understand and
how far behind their child is?

609
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,960
We've tried the softly, softly
approach but now are being much

610
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,240
more direct, but they still
don't seem to get it.

611
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:48,320
I thought of a few parents
immediately with this type of

612
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,600
question where it's not a nice,
you know, within our parents

613
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,160
evening reports, etcetera.
I think it's really good to be

614
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,320
frank with parents.
And as I got through my career,

615
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,680
I got more confident in
basically saying it at the start

616
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,760
of my career, I was, I was, I'm
going to be admitted.

617
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,440
I was scared to say to someone
your child's really below in

618
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,200
terms of their attainment.
OK, I'm going to say below like

619
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,080
below level it it.
I got more confident as my

620
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,760
career gone on.
But then it made me also that

621
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,640
obviously opened the door up to
some parents who were really

622
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,000
reactive to it, who really
appreciated it.

623
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:23,160
But some in this camp who I felt
like I said it five times in a

624
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,320
row, different ways to them, and
they were still just like, oh,

625
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,240
yeah, but she's so bright, isn't
she?

626
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:33,400
I'm like, I, I'm sorry, but in
this context we're talking

627
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,320
about, she isn't.
She's a lovely girl.

628
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,440
She's so polite.
She's going to go far in life.

629
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,360
She's fantastic.
She's got all this going for

630
00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:42,400
her.
She's going to be OK.

631
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,120
But you do need to understand,
though, her reading is is below,

632
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:48,880
she struggles with reading and
that's going to be a key skill.

633
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,800
So we need to try and work
together to try and prove that

634
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,120
you don't read that often at
home with her.

635
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:55,240
We don't get that.
You've admitted that to me in

636
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,560
this conversation.
We know it's busy, but it would

637
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,880
really, really, really help her.
Oh, I know she she just don't

638
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,760
want to read, does she?
But she's, she'll be all right.

639
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,440
Oh, oh, but I promise you, you
should do this.

640
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,720
Yeah, it's a lot of people.
It's a, it's one of the most

641
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,280
awkward conversations I think
you can have as a teacher.

642
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:13,920
I mean, parent exchanges can be
quite awkward.

643
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,920
Anyway, There are probably one
of the harder elements, I think,

644
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,720
for teachers to grasp 'cause you
there's.

645
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:19,920
No training is there?
Not really.

646
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,880
Training and ultimately like,
like a lot of people will start

647
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,040
quite young as teachers and
you'll be talking to parents who

648
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:26,400
are older than you.
And that was certainly a thing

649
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,520
of our, you know, majority of
our career, to be fair.

650
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:30,480
And it's awkward.
It's awkward.

651
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,480
Like no one wants to tell
someone else that their child

652
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,080
isn't doing particularly well or
isn't meeting the expectations

653
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:36,160
that they think maybe they're
meeting.

654
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:37,600
I mean, there's a couple of
things to this.

655
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,400
Number one, I find it
particularly hard when all of

656
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,080
the predecessor teachers, I've
also been softly, softly and not

657
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,320
and not addressed it.
And I found as a year 6 teacher

658
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,000
and I'm having conversations
with parents who you know, and

659
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,360
you get the old time where a
child is significantly behind it

660
00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:53,400
when it comes to maths and
English.

661
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:54,520
Let's just focus on maths and
English.

662
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,440
There's obviously a lot more to
a child, but these are the

663
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,040
conversations that normally come
with awkwardness because we

664
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:00,760
measure them so well.
I mean, you can normally say,

665
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,280
oh, your child is at this sort
of year group level.

666
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,680
And I've had children who are
multiple years behind by this

667
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,280
point and the parents don't know
it.

668
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,280
And I'm like, to me, but first
thing that screams at me, I'm

669
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,520
like, oh God.
Like I really, really, really

670
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,760
wish people had been more frank
before this because now it's all

671
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,120
this whole burden's fallen to
me.

672
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,200
And there is a potential that
they're going to think, and

673
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,480
rightfully so.
Well, every other teacher hasn't

674
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:22,880
told me this.
So it's your fault.

675
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:25,040
They suddenly come to your class
and now they're two years

676
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,920
behind.
So that might be a reason why

677
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,560
they're maybe a bit dismissive
about it.

678
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,160
Exactly, exactly that.
And it falls, that burden then

679
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,880
falls on you as a teacher.
Who's then who's picking up

680
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,040
those pieces?
Who's delivered the truth?

681
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:35,440
Yeah, you deliver the truth,
Really.

682
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,080
And it looks like, OK, it's your
fault almost.

683
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:39,160
Because other teachers haven't
said that.

684
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,440
And the reality was they were
behind in previous years.

685
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,600
But the teachers just go.
How can they be in a year 4

686
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,240
level at year 6 when they were
fine in Year 5?

687
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,960
Yeah, exactly.
Honestly, they weren't, but they

688
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,960
weren't where they where you
think they were.

689
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,200
So firstly, I think there needs
to be a unanimous approach

690
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,280
across the school.
I think there should be some

691
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,840
staff training on like how we
deliver that sort of feedback to

692
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,640
parents because I feel like that
was definitely lacking in my

693
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:58,280
career.
I don't really.

694
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,560
Think, no, I, I, if anything,
the interest here at listeners

695
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,240
think about that because I
reckon that's lacking everywhere

696
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,400
in terms of there's no, you
know, I think, yeah,

697
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,280
communication is hard to get
right.

698
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,200
I think we've run our own
businesses, we've run in lots of

699
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,480
schools.
Communication consistently, even

700
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,320
with the best of intentions,
usually crops up as an issue no

701
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,760
matter where you're at.
And that to me, that's, that's

702
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,960
another, you know, symptom of
that where there has to be clear

703
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,200
communication, where actually as
a teacher, it's your job to

704
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,920
deliver this information 100%.
It can be in a nice way, but you

705
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,360
have to deliver that
information.

706
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,480
So I think that's my second
point then about delivering the

707
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:32,640
information.
If you're in that situation

708
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,360
where let's say the other thing
wasn't so much of a problem,

709
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,720
genuinely, it's just the parents
just not getting it.

710
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,040
Like you've, like you've said,
you've said it three times in

711
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,200
different ways of like this is
where your child's out.

712
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,080
I just think the only way you
can talk at the end of the day,

713
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,640
you can't actually secure that
problem completely, but you can

714
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,760
tackle it as much as you can by
presenting information at

715
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,360
multiple points in the year.
I think it's 1 and in multiple

716
00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:55,280
different ways.
I think sometimes we rely on it

717
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,480
just being, I'm reading off my
sheet of information, it's

718
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,360
verbal, maybe a visual might
help, maybe some writing might

719
00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:02,520
help.
And doing that a couple of times

720
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,960
across the year, I think we'll
catch 99.999% of people and they

721
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,360
will actually understand where
their child's at.

722
00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:11,520
You still might get the old
person that somehow they've been

723
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,880
given a graph, they've been
given written information.

724
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,040
You've told them three times in
the year and for some reason

725
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,960
they're not listening.
At that point, I'm like, I don't

726
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,040
know what else I can do.
Like I've given you this

727
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,200
information in many as many ways
as I can.

728
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,240
I get the impression sometimes
some parents who push back and

729
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,120
kind of it feels like they don't
want to hear it.

730
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,160
It's a bit of a defence
mechanism sometimes, sure,

731
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,600
because they sat in front of the
teacher.

732
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,760
They, they, they don't want to
feel like their child's, but

733
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,640
they might feel personally
responsible, but have not been

734
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:35,880
reading etcetera with them or
whatever.

735
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,040
And sometimes I've, I've had
that conversation where our

736
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:40,960
parents being like that and
dismissive almost.

737
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:41,800
It's fine.
It's fine.

738
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,280
You, you've just told me how
amazing she is.

739
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,920
I care more about how lovely she
is and as a person and, and her

740
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,000
maths is OK.
Like it's it.

741
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,280
Everything they're saying is
fine up until when they just go,

742
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,640
and that's fine.
I'm like, oh, but two things can

743
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,120
exist.
Yeah, two things.

744
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:56,760
You can believe that it's more
important.

745
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,520
They're a well-rounded person.
I'd probably agree with you,

746
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,280
Right?
But there are some things that

747
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,680
if your child can't read
properly though, and they are 9,

748
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,440
we have to both be on the same
page here and accept that's the

749
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,840
reality because there's only
going to be one way that we fix

750
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,800
that.
It's by both accepting that.

751
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,240
And sometimes it's definitely a
defensive thing.

752
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,040
No one wants to hear that.
But then I've noticed afterwards

753
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,320
through just being persistent,
even though it feels like you're

754
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,400
not getting through to them, an
uptake in how much they're

755
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,680
reading, an uptake in how much
they're doing at home.

756
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,800
So it's not always a lost cause
just because it feels that way.

757
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,160
It's it's something to keep an
eye on and you know, as as a

758
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,480
teacher, it can be bit relenting
for the 4th time, for the fifth

759
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,800
time, separate time of saying
the same thing.

760
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,280
Yeah, but it but it is our job.
And one thing that is important

761
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,160
though, is you never, ever,
ever, ever get rude because I, I

762
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,200
think that would be easy for
someone to, to go.

763
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:44,680
I've got that.
I've told you 4 times, I'm going

764
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,720
to be so frank next time that
it's actually quite blunt and

765
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,480
rude.
I, I think it is so

766
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,160
unprofessional and you should
never do that, no matter how

767
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:51,560
annoying it is that it's not
getting through.

768
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,960
You have to maintain literal
professionalism and being

769
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,320
polite.
And at the end of the day, I

770
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:57,760
wasn't about you.
But like I've had a probably a

771
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,920
couple of parents in my career
who have like got literally

772
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:03,000
visibly upset over because it
means so much to them.

773
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,560
And hearing anything that isn't
just my child's doing it

774
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,080
completely finding exactly where
they should be, he's upsetting.

775
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,360
And that like, breaks my heart.
Like.

776
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,600
I hate.
I hate that So I understand why

777
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,440
people go down softy softy
approach because no one wants to

778
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,040
sit there in front of a parent
and make them feel upset about

779
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,640
the progress of their child.
That is like one of the worst

780
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,120
feelings ever.
But there is a point where you

781
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,280
have to just like it up and say
this parent has the right to

782
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,480
know exactly where their child
is and and it's my job to be as

783
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,880
truthful as possible in the most
polite and professional way I

784
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:32,960
can.
You have to balance them.

785
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,560
Good answer, well done.
Thanks for contributing after

786
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,680
half an hour.
Oh, you were being nice and then

787
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,680
you brought it back.
Go on, go if we can.

788
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,280
If we can return the message, me
or you.

789
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:43,560
Oh, you.
Don't even know it's your own

790
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,800
podcast.
Crikey, you need me, You need

791
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:47,800
me.
You read the last one.

792
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:48,840
OK, got it.
So here's on.

793
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:50,720
You shouldn't start reading any
of you.

794
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,160
You shouldn't, Yeah.
Can we ever really teach reading

795
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,520
for pleasure?
It feels like forced fun to me

796
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,320
and I hate when people say
something like first rule, have

797
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,720
fun.
I immediately don't feel like

798
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,360
having fun.
If a child can't read, what's

799
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,680
pleasurable about that?
It's fair enough.

800
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,840
I've said this a long time.
I don't think you can teach

801
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,600
reading for pleasure.
No, I think the the the role of

802
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,320
a school and the job of a
teacher is to facilitate the

803
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,040
chance for children to enjoy
reading.

804
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,000
And that can be through lots of
ways.

805
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,720
So yeah, I absolutely agree.
I think, I think I hear

806
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,360
sometimes people say they've
been told in their timetable

807
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,240
they've got 15 minutes slot,
which is for reading for

808
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,160
pleasure.
And it comes from a nice place

809
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,480
and it can be done really well.
But it's just, it's just funny

810
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,320
to me in the surface where it's
like, right, kids, pack up your

811
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:32,480
stuff, it's time to read for
pleasure.

812
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,720
But obviously you can't do that.
Like we're all going to enjoy

813
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:36,600
this book.
Now we're reading.

814
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,440
Reading for pleasure for me is,
is a, is a ethos, it's a vibe.

815
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,720
It's what you do all of the time
where you facilitate an

816
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,960
environment for children to
enjoy any type of reading that's

817
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:49,880
good for them because it will
look different for that kid, for

818
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,080
that kid, for that kid, for that
kid.

819
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,600
You can have a nice corner where
there's some books that are

820
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,600
readily available.
You can have some nonfiction

821
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:56,760
texts.
You know your class are into

822
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,960
that.
You can have some rules in place

823
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:02,160
where children understand that
there's a bit of downtime.

824
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:03,280
They can read their book for a
bit.

825
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,720
There's so much you can
implement.

826
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,320
I think it has to be school
wide.

827
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,960
It has to be consistent, has to
be all day.

828
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:11,880
It's not time.
There's not timetable.

829
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,080
Reading for pleasure.
Let's not do that.

830
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,920
It's not timetable and say,
well, I've got this tick to box

831
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:17,440
show off stairs.
We do reading pleasure 15

832
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,000
minutes a day.
It doesn't work like that to

833
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,680
truly actually have an impact on
the children, which is what I

834
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,360
want to actually change their
minds and to give them the

835
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,680
chance to almost feel like
they're doing that themselves.

836
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,640
It's about giving them
opportunities across the board

837
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,120
to do so.
So I, I, I completely understand

838
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:35,840
where this question is coming
from because it's probably

839
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,960
coming from a place where
they've been told reading

840
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,600
pleasure is important.
Make sure your kids are reading

841
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:40,720
for pleasure.
And then that's the end of the

842
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,440
conversation.
There has to be more to it.

843
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,400
I absolutely fell victim to
that, by the way.

844
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,360
I'll, I'll happily put my hands
up and say there were there were

845
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,160
times in my career where there
was some sort of timetable part

846
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,160
scheduled in of reading for
pleasure at the end of the day,

847
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:53,440
being of the day, wherever it
was right.

848
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,080
And the whole point was, in that
time, kids read their books

849
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,480
independently, and maybe even
you read your book as a teacher

850
00:32:58,480 --> 00:32:59,680
as well to show it, to model
them.

851
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:01,400
All this stuff, I don't think
that's necessarily.

852
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,360
Bad.
Me neither, but the whole point

853
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,080
here was the kids.
In that time, I can hold my

854
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,040
hands and say I didn't.
It wasn't about the ethos for

855
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:10,200
me.
It was about, oh, in this

856
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:11,240
moment.
I tell the kids that we're

857
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:12,920
reading for pleasure now and
they all read their books and I

858
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,360
make them all read, right.
And the kids that don't like

859
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,200
reading obviously did anything
they could do not read because

860
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:19,720
this didn't make it any more
pleasurable.

861
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:20,840
For them, do you know what that
was?

862
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,480
That was independent reading?
Yeah.

863
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:23,840
It's just called a spade a
spade.

864
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,080
It's independent reading.
If a kid doesn't enjoy reading,

865
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:27,640
they're not going to suddenly
enjoy reading.

866
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,880
Exactly that that was, but I
thought it was because someone

867
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:31,880
told me that's reading for
pleasure.

868
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,960
But really that had nothing to
do with encouraging or fostering

869
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:37,840
reading for pleasure.
Like the improvement movement of

870
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,520
that in your school because it
is an ethos thing.

871
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,520
You're absolutely right.
So do you think then send it

872
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,840
back to you?
Do you think there is there is a

873
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,720
space to say that some schools
can do reading for pleasure

874
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,280
better by the things they do to
the ethos than other schools?

875
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,360
Yeah, 100%, absolutely.
Because I also think there's, I

876
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,360
don't think there's one way of
teaching reading for pleasure.

877
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:56,560
I don't think there's one way of
doing it.

878
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,480
That's why I said it's an ethos,
because an ethos is vague and

879
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:01,840
including myself, a lot of
people don't like vagueness.

880
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:03,360
They want answers.
They want what can I do to

881
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,400
improve reading for pleasure.
There's loads of actionable

882
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,600
things you can do, but I think
it depends on your class, it

883
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,800
depends on your group, it
depends on your year group, it

884
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,320
depends on your school.
Like it depends on so much.

885
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,159
It depends on the resources you
have available or not.

886
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,159
So when I'm saying it's an
ethos, I think you can still

887
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,480
tell people like actionable tips
of what to do.

888
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,440
You could still help people out
by in like in each room,

889
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,400
encouraging there to be at least
a space for reading at least

890
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,320
something where you know, books
are on display or easily, you

891
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,199
know, even even down to how
they're displayed.

892
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,719
They're slightly open stood up
so you can see the front covers,

893
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,199
not just like filed away on the
side.

894
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,400
There's little things and
actions that there's been lots

895
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:37,880
of reading frameworks that have
been released.

896
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:39,520
There's been lots of people who
are really passionate about

897
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,159
books on on social media sites.
And I said, this is what you can

898
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:42,760
do.
Yeah.

899
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,159
I think there's loads of little
things you can do constantly

900
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,000
that I think add to it and add
to it.

901
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,320
I don't think there's such a
thing as tick box do reading for

902
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,000
pleasure.
Yeah, I think, I think there

903
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,159
are.
There are some schools that do a

904
00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:54,280
bit.
There are some schools that do a

905
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,320
lot.
We're all on some sliding scale.

906
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,160
And I'm not going to be the
person to come in and say, well,

907
00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:59,640
this is where the line is.
You have to be at least doing

908
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:00,880
that.
Yeah, it's not true.

909
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,000
It's an ethos and you build and
you work at it and you change

910
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,920
stuff and you try stuff and you
do stuff and you as a staff team

911
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,760
and SLT understand what the
outcomes are by by saying, by

912
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,680
giving the trust your
professionals to say what do

913
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,760
your children need?
If I walked in at 10:45 and

914
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,480
actually on on should be maths
time right now and I walked into

915
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,400
a classroom and that they were
maybe they were doing maths and

916
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,760
a couple of kids genuinely were
reading something in the corner

917
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,200
right.
My gut, my guttural instinct

918
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,200
there would not be unacceptable.
My guttural instinct would be,

919
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:37,120
I'm sure there's a reason for
that.

920
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,160
They seem to be enjoying
themselves doing some reading.

921
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,040
I don't think the teacher is
suddenly thinking mass is

922
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,040
unimportant for that child.
No, it's an ethos, it's an idea

923
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,560
and I think freedom to
professionals and good training

924
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,040
and lots of ideas that would
like almost like a cauldron of

925
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,000
ideas that you take from
definitely is a is a fantastic

926
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,000
way to do this.
And in that situation, if you

927
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,000
really want to know, just talk
to the teacher after you find

928
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,680
out and they'll tell you.
And if you and if it's not an

929
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,680
acceptable answer, then you can
as a manager do what you need to

930
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,400
do exactly if it is and go cool,
well done.

931
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:04,720
That's.
Nice and that's that's what I

932
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,040
was trying to do there is
explain what I mean by just not

933
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,360
just timetabling yeah yeah yeah
yeah like OK we do reading for

934
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,040
pleasure from 2:15 till half two
every day so if I walk around

935
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:14,920
the school every I'd walk in
every kid would be reading the.

936
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,360
Book.
Yeah, that's not reading the

937
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:17,280
book.
They get detention because.

938
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,360
They're not pleasurable.
Reading, yeah, that'll work.

939
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,160
That'll help them.
Yeah, definitely.

940
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,160
I think even just reflecting,
you said there's actionable

941
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,920
things and I was just thinking
about even my career and there's

942
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,680
two things that come to mind
that I feel like I saw.

943
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,200
I was like, oh, this is this is
like this is definitely having

944
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,040
an impact in the classroom.
And obviously I like you said,

945
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:34,200
there's a cauldron of things you
can do.

946
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,120
Number one is literally, that
sounds really stupid, but it is

947
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,560
something we should do.
The the variety and options of

948
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,360
books that are literally
available for your children

949
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,920
completely at their fingertips.
Whatever the closest version is

950
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:47,640
for them of their library or
bookshelf, whatever's in your

951
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,880
classroom.
Honestly, just having some sort

952
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,360
of monitoring of of the books
that are available does make a

953
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,200
huge difference.
Because when I put some time

954
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:55,920
into making sure there's a
variety in there, suddenly I had

955
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:57,600
more kids that are interested in
picking back books because they

956
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,160
were more interesting.
I was like, who'd have thought

957
00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:01,000
it?
There's books that other kids

958
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:02,400
are.
Interested in not just Tracy

959
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,280
Beaker anymore?
I might try and read that now.

960
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:05,880
Yeah, right.
So it seems really obvious, but

961
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,840
it's just something you have to
actively do as a teacher.

962
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,280
And the second thing I found I
had more of an impact maybe than

963
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,560
I thought it would.
And I noticed this again over 10

964
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,680
years through changing the texts
we read.

965
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,960
Whenever we had a class text,
whether it was embedded into

966
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,640
English or it was just a class
text for the sake of having a

967
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,600
book to read together, whatever
the context was doesn't really

968
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,720
matter.
But like, really like the book

969
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:29,160
that you pick there sometimes
had an astronomical impact on

970
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:30,960
the amount of children that then
went away and wanted to read

971
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,160
other books from that author or
within that genre.

972
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,600
And I was always shocked at how
much that did.

973
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,640
I just thought, oh, kids will
just see it as the book the

974
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,160
teachers read and they've got to
do some work around it.

975
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:40,920
They don't really care.
And then I read something like

976
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,840
Emma Carroll Letter from the
Lighthouse and the amount of

977
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,520
kids after who went away and
made their parents by Emma

978
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,360
Carroll books or kids who didn't
normally engage of reading who I

979
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,840
could see were totally
captivated by this story and

980
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:53,600
then their word count went up by
that.

981
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,560
Word count.
That's the only way to make.

982
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,280
It but whatever it is, but I
could see, I could see having

983
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,800
you seen him is the point.
And I was like, that had more

984
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,200
impact than I thought it were
just through the literal text.

985
00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:05,880
And when I've read books that I
thought were good, maybe some

986
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:07,920
get some good learning points
out of them, but they're not

987
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,760
super exciting as texts.
Surprise, surprise, it didn't

988
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,360
really have an impact on kids
going to read for pleasure

989
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:13,560
because the book wasn't that
exciting.

990
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:16,800
So it really is important what
text you pick as a teacher.

991
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,120
I I always go back to Varjak
Paul because there were, there

992
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,760
were lots of good books you read
and the kids, the kids, children

993
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,520
tend to enjoy stories.
It's like we're, we're wired as

994
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:26,920
humans to enjoy narratives,
right?

995
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,640
So kids like stories, but there
are obviously some that

996
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,240
captivate children more.
Every single time I did Project

997
00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:35,160
Poor, it was insane how it
captivated the children were to

998
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,040
the point where they were both
annoyed that the story had ended

999
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,480
for the day, but buzzing to go
and do their work because it was

1000
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:42,640
to do with something we've just
been doing.

1001
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,440
And I, I remember this exact
example of a child who, you

1002
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,680
know, didn't mind reading.
They, they have asked the

1003
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:50,840
children to do independent
reading.

1004
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,960
They'd be the perfect example of
a child who'd sit there quietly

1005
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,040
and read their book.
And someone walked in my ticker

1006
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,160
box and say, well, reading for
pleasure is happening right now.

1007
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,560
Yeah, they were just reading.
They weren't necessarily having

1008
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,040
the best time in the world.
Went and read the second Vortex

1009
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,160
Vajrek Paul book.
There's there's one after it and

1010
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,800
ferociously read through it.
Like I was talking to me about

1011
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,160
it all the time and was animated
by what was going on.

1012
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,720
That's the difference.
That child would have carried on

1013
00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:18,000
reading and would have got the
word count up and would have

1014
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,800
been seen as a child who was
doing some reading.

1015
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,560
And that's fine.
It's not a problem through me

1016
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,720
and the year group choosing
Varjak poor.

1017
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,720
They continued reading, but they
read the book that's next in the

1018
00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:29,840
sequel and they were buzzing.
They were happy.

1019
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,240
They were talking to me about
the pleasure pleasure.

1020
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:35,080
So that that to me really
highlights what we mean by

1021
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:36,920
reading for pleasure.
There is a difference between

1022
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,560
those two and there might be on
paper someone looking at it

1023
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,040
going, well, that child was
reading.

1024
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:42,560
Either way, there's no need for
any intervention.

1025
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:43,600
That's fine.
They're getting the outcomes,

1026
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,600
the word counts going up, the
quizzing on a book that's called

1027
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:47,080
they're reading nice.
No.

1028
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,800
The difference there is in this
is the difference between

1029
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,280
reading and reading for
pleasure.

1030
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,840
That child loved that act of
reading there.

1031
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,960
It wasn't because I needed them
to read more, it was because I

1032
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,240
wanted them to enjoy reading.
It had that impact, which was

1033
00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:03,480
less measurable but clear for me
to see as a professional in the

1034
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,040
room that they were enjoying it
more.

1035
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,080
Can I put that down on the
spreadsheet somewhere?

1036
00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:09,040
No.
Does that therefore mean it's

1037
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,000
pointless and then we can't
possibly do anything about it?

1038
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,040
No, and it goes back to what I'm
saying about ethos.

1039
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:14,920
That is where the ethos kicks
in.

1040
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,320
I can't do a spreadsheet about
it, but I can see it having an

1041
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,840
impact on the children in my
room and that's what we need to

1042
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,600
do.
Such a fascinating way of

1043
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,760
thinking about the fact that
it's for reading for pleasure is

1044
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:26,680
for everyone, even the people
that even the kids that already

1045
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,640
read exactly like they can still
find books.

1046
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,440
They're more interested in them
and have more pleasure in

1047
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,440
reading.
Like it's not, it's not the goal

1048
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,120
isn't actually can I, the optic,
can I see kids reading in a

1049
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:37,880
certain amount?
The goal is, are they enjoying

1050
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:39,800
it completely?
And it's not just the children.

1051
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,240
Yeah, So interesting because I
very much before this, I was

1052
00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:45,640
very much just thinking of the
kids who aren't reading as the

1053
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:47,720
thing that I'm trying to tackle
to get them to start enjoying.

1054
00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:49,800
Reading which is which is a fine
thing to try and tackle

1055
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,840
Important.
Definitely, but I was totally

1056
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,840
disregarding the children who
are seen to read right and not

1057
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,240
really thinking about what are
they enjoying it or not.

1058
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,280
Because I was one of those kids.
I, I, I didn't like reading.

1059
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,760
I did it enough and I and I, I
did it enough genuinely to be

1060
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:04,400
good at.
Yeah.

1061
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,840
And, and, and that also, let's
not, let's not pretend that's

1062
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:07,680
not important.
It is.

1063
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:09,200
Of course it is.
You have to be doing that.

1064
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:10,880
That's fine.
But this is like the you're

1065
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:11,880
right, the enjoyment's like the
next.

1066
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,360
Step you know, although would it
would it have benefited my life

1067
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,840
if there was some more or
thought around the ethos of

1068
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:18,960
getting me to enjoy reading a
bit more honestly probably would

1069
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,520
have transformed my life in.
Different.

1070
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,400
You could have been carrying on
reading and then when you're 30

1071
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,000
and 35 and still enjoy reading,
yeah, it's gonna have more of an

1072
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,760
impact on you then as well.
So it's a long term. 100%, yeah.

1073
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:31,200
It's really important.
I don't know.

1074
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,200
I think that's, I think that's
really, really important.

1075
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:35,400
All right, let's finish up
there.

1076
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,600
We've as always got more
questions which we will put into

1077
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,120
next week.
And I tell you what, some of the

1078
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,480
questions we started with today
were from last week where?

1079
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,520
We're becoming efficient.
Are we doing podcasting for

1080
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:46,520
pleasure right now?
Yeah, we are.

1081
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,280
We just podcasting.
We're actually just doing the

1082
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,640
basics of a job to answer a.
Few job they get paid for a job.

1083
00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:53,960
Yeah, well, yeah.
Jobs should be pleasurable.

1084
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:55,960
This is a vocation I'll have you
know.

1085
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,960
You do it for the audience.
Oh, think about the audience.

1086
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:00,000
You want the questions.
Answered.

1087
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,200
Can you come in early?
Guys, thank you so much for

1088
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:05,800
listening.
You can review us, you can share

1089
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:06,880
it.
It helps us out massively.

1090
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,000
If you've got this far, I'm
going to ask you for that

1091
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:10,440
favour.
Just just help us out a little

1092
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:12,400
bit.
Share us on socials Share this

1093
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:13,840
podcast episode to your teacher
group.

1094
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,640
Do something where we get our
voices out there a bit more.

1095
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,640
Because if you're enjoying it,
everyone else can as well,

1096
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,160
right?
Do something where we benefit.

1097
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:21,320
Exactly.
That's what I heard.

1098
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,880
And Hayden said at least three
times that the things I said

1099
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,760
were good.
Yeah, Which I won't be doing

1100
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,360
again.
No, and just leave you on this.

1101
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,440
There's a in the room.
God's sake, No.

1102
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:31,040
See you later.