Ep 194: Q&A: Reading For Pleasure Gimmicks, Flimsy Behaviour Policies & Wellbeing Fads

0:00 Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of TC Repeats. My name is Dylan and my name is Hayden. And this is a question and answer episode. As always on a Monday starting off your week, right? You're on the way to school, work, walking, whatever. You're part time. You're not. I don't know, I don't know what you're doing, but you know you're about to listen to this fantastic question and answer from our lovely community. You can join our WhatsApp down below. It's completely free and you get to submit questions. Why don't leave us A rating as well whilst you're here? You've not even listened to it yet. Just assume it'll be 5 stars. Yeah, go on, Hayden Stars. Off, if you've listened to other ones, then you can give us five stars for that anyway. Right. So there's a win win. It's a win win. Precisely. All right, jumping in then first question. My school has just introduced a shout out wall and I've started putting fruit out in the staff room. I'm only laughing because I know your reaction already.

0:41 By the way, I'm not laughing. I know what's happening. I'll cut to you. I'm not laughing. Yeah, I've started putting fruit out in the staff room. That is free for anyone who wants it. It's nice all of this is being implemented by our well-being lead as a way to boost well-being among staff. Am IA Scrooge for not buying into this at all. I know for a fact that the reasons people have for their well-being being low is nothing to do with having a free banana, but more to do with draconian policies in planning and marking. And. I've I've always found horrible marking policies that keep me there for two hours just breeze by kind of grapes next to me we go one tick 1 grape got me for it. This is why I was smirking. I'm looking up at you because I knew. I knew.

1:22 Joe, this is a classic case of yeah, that this is a classic case of when something's introduced which is obviously nice. Yeah. Isn't too lovely. Like, you can have two thoughts here. It's obviously nice to call someone out for doing a good job. That's a lovely thing. What's that? Free fruit? That's a great nice thing. It's good. It's lovely. It's when that's conflated with if someone dares to suggest that that maybe isn't going to solve well-being, someone goes, don't you want the nice things? You're just so negative all the time. I put a lovely thing on the wall up there to say thank you for printing my sheets for me. Does that not make you happy? That's not the core of my problem in this school, isn't that there's a well-being board where I can shout someone out and have a banana whilst I'm doing it. OK.

2:09 Oh my God, two things can happen, do I? Think someone doesn't like fruit? I'm I'm partial to a pair. But it's not going to. Solve if my if my well-being is poor in a school, it's it's usually down to other things like in this question, which they've used the word draconian. One of my favourite words to use draconian policies or I'm planning on marking. That's what's pushing teachers to exhaustion. Yeah, it's not. It's not whether I've got a an acceptable spread of fruit on the on the table, and it's not. I'm sorry. Yeah, I preferred it when it was doughnuts. Thank you. Yeah, you're, you're in your last legs and you go to the star room, you're like, they've taken the doughnuts. Yeah, it's not even a sprinkled doughnut.

2:52 What do you think? Am I being hot? You're being quite funny like that. That's. A nice compliment. Dylan's been funny for the first time. We nearly made it to 200 episodes without being funny. So there we go. I try and be reasonable. OK, is this person being a Scrooge or being a bit bummed out by it? Right. A tiny, tiny bit, Scrooge. That's it. Only a tiny bit. For all the reasons you just said. I think it, I think if your opinion was this is all pointless, don't bother doing it at all is a bit a bit harsh to the other side in terms of like, like you said, it is still nice to do these things. It's still nice to provide your staff with some fruit if the baseline was nothing before. It's still nice to shout out people if no one was being shouted out before.

3:33 But I do agree with the overall sentiment, which is it is solving nothing though. It's solving nothing like no problems are being solved. It's a nice addition to the school. It's almost separate. It gets banded in with, oh, this is part of the solution to well-being. No, it's not. The well-being problem sits over here, right? This thing that you've implemented is just a nice addition to other nice things that might happen in the school. Like it actually has to me, nothing to do with it. My well-being is not affected by those things. My well-being is affected by, like you said, the draconian policies that the workload, the things that actually stress me out. You don't like, I feel like you don't. You don't counter stress by maintaining the things that stress you out.

4:15 But if you do an equal amount of nice stuff that doesn't like counterbalance the stress, you know what I mean? You just have nice things in your life and also are still. Stressed the stress is still. There you have to the only way to counter the stress is to cure the thing that's that's causing the stress is my is probably what I'm trying to say here. So yeah, unless you are as a school also alongside this, because it is nice alongside this trying to tackle the root issues of what's making your staff feel like crap all the time, then you're not really tackling this problem, you're just kind of superficially saying something. And I do genuinely find that when we get people right in about this, because it's not the first time we've heard this, it normally comes under the caveat of this is quite a toxic school. Not always, obviously, yeah, But this is quite a toxic school. And this is their way of pretending they're addressing a problem. That's a very common thing.

4:59 I hear this. Because because the the other side to that is this, this does exist in nice schools, right? To me, exactly. To me, this is like this is like an air freshener. OK, so these these no, genuinely these, these well-being room, like there's a nice board, there's some fruit out that's like an air freshener. You go into a room. OK, might be a lovely room. Adding a bit of air freshener will be nice, wouldn't it? It's a good. No one would go. Why are you doing air freshener? It's pointless. That's a lovely room. And now it smells good. Yeah. Imagine there's a pile of dog in the middle of the room. And you walk in and you go, I'll solve this. And you'll think, oh, great, they're gonna get rid of that dog. They're gonna get rid of it because it stinks. It's a horrendous room to be in a hate. Or at least half it just. Just walk in. Just get rid of it. No, just get rid of it. Get complete. Finally someone's come in. It's the well-being lead. They're gonna come in. They're gonna get rid of this pile of poo in the middle of the room, thank God. And they come in with some Febreze and just spray it. There you go.

5:42 No, it doesn't work. You. Yeah, But breeze. Nice. Yeah, of course. Yeah, it's great. Thank you. But do you know it's going to keep permeating the smell of the faeces from the dog that's in the middle of this room? We're not addressing the problem. We're just dressing it up. Oh, my God. Like, you can have air freshener that's nice. In another room where there's also no poo. That's great. OK, that's a good analogy. I hate how good that is annoys me how perfectly what that summarises it, right. So I've been funny and I've annoyed you. How good because it's true, because like you said, like it was a really important point is you can go into room that doesn't have the dog poop in it and still and still spray the air freshener and it's still a nice boost to that room. It's still a plus. Exactly. But in the room where there's dogs in the carpet in the middle, Yeah, it's not really solving the issue.

6:25 And everyone would just go, oh, that's nice, thanks. They feel awkward because they're what they're really thinking is, oh, that probably wasn't the best thing to do. You dare to question it, the person with the spray just goes. Don't you like Blossom? Berries. Oh, turns out you like the smell, do you? You'll live with that instead then. So, so that, that, that basically summarises my thoughts. So funny is is OK, it can be a nice thing, but also not remotely do the job you're pretending it does. Yeah, definitely, definitely OK. That's it. I feel like I feel like we've perfectly answered that. I think it's the first question we've ever had in this podcast where I feel like I'm totally, perfectly satisfied that we have solved the issue and answered every anyone that has this question, we've solved it for you. Listen to what we just. Said And it's only taken literally hundreds of questions at this point. Right next one, let's have a read. Last week a child child in my year eight class told me to fuck off.

7:13 Oh step straight in, there we go. Not messing around this week are we right? And was genuinely back in my classroom within 30 minutes from the inclusion room with a broad grin on their face. Not only did I feel completely undermined as a professional, but every kid in my class was then thinking oh it's OK, anything goes. Why are we pretending this is the way to deal with behaviours like this? It's actually a big question. So yeah, I was just thinking. I was like, I could dive loosely into this. But you don't wanna get cancelled. I don't wanna get cancelled, OK? I don't swear on this podcast for a start. That's the first line I've cancelled now. It's tricky, isn't it? Cuz my first thought as you were reading it right was they came back after 30 minutes. My genuine first thought was, OK, maybe, maybe the thing that needed to happen happened and we're trying to include this child back into education.

8:04 I don't necessarily have an immediate issue with that. As soon as I heard with a broad grin on their face, I was like, oh, now, now my. It's crazy how quickly that flipped my opinion. And then I was then thinking, yeah, that's completely unacceptable. They're coming back in. They have not that there's nothing to. Happen. No apology. No apology like they felt undermined. I would feel undermined. I don't know about you, but if that happened to me, I would feel undermined because because I 30 minutes ago used my authority as a teacher to make the decision that that person should no longer be in this room for the sake of everybody else and themselves. The fact they've come in 30 minutes later, clearly nothing has changed because they're coming in grinning is 1 showing like it to me. It's like it's basically them saying to me, ha ha, you try to enforce this rule and Get Me Out of the class, but look where it look, I'm back. Well, let's let's.

8:46 I mean, to a degree, but when I send someone out of the class, I, you know, them coming back in isn't automatically bad to me. No, like like the the issues for me comes not in the fact they've come back. Like it's that they've come back. But there's no adult with them explaining, you know, what's or seeing how they're getting on or, or seeing they settle back in the class. It's very much just like back to being your problem. There's no intermediate, like, like professional in the middle to be like, well, I'm literally delivering this lesson to this class now. I I don't have the time and energy to solve this right now at the level it needs to be because it would mean that I have to stop my lesson. Yeah, I would hope someone else did that and then brought them back in. And then there was an apology and then there was an explanation. And then I know what happened. Some kind of communication like the the act of them coming back into the class probably I can imagine can work. There can be examples like that.

9:33 OK. Yeah, that's kind of. What I was trying to say, you know, when I said when, when you started saying it, my first thought was that and then the grin on the face, like, change it for me a little. Bit but is it but but does it? Do you care if they're happy or not? Like again, I can imagine something going out, something happening and a kid like do I want them to sulk for the rest of the day? And that's the only way I'll be happy as a profession. I know under my. But let's clarify this could be really clear. The broad grin on their face. I very much I'm interpreting that as like a a smarmy way with it smarmy look, not just a I'm happy now like because that's. I have no problem with that. He came in and gave me the look of like ner ner. Yeah, like and was like. Being with the whole context. Exactly. Because that's what I'm imagining, the context of this question. I'm imagining that's the case, right? That's why they start, because I wouldn't feel on the mind otherwise. They come in happy and start getting on with the lesson.

10:14 I'd be like, brilliant, yeah, whoever. They've been out for 30 minutes. They've done their job because this, this person is now settled and they're getting all of their work and they're happy. That's the ultimate outcome. But if they're coming in and showing off at the fact that they're back in the class, yeah. And greeting at the teacher like like I don't care. Do you think there's a line where what happens means that actually, do you know what, for this lesson, you shouldn't be coming back in this is this lesson done? For example, you've got to remember the point here was a child told a teacher to fuck off. Yeah. Like it is. Is that past the point of just like, OK, why don't you off then Basically, like obviously wouldn't say that to the child, but why don't you just get that's just ridiculous, unacceptable completely. I think there is a line, yeah, so. Like in terms of as a teacher, I'm just flipping it again, just trying to find where the line is here.

10:56 Is it acceptable if a child told you to do that in the middle of the class? I think it's well within the right to the teacher to say, cool, I'm not teaching you today. Yeah, 100%. So, so in that case them coming in can be do you know that's what I was getting at earlier. Is there a line here? It's another. Yeah, exactly. That's why it's such complex questions because there's so many ways you can think about this. But I absolutely do think that teachers are human beings in there as well. Like they're not just robots who just get on with, who work perfectly efficiently all the time. If a child told me to F off in the middle of a lesson, it's going to rattle me. Of course I'm a human being. And if I see them 30 minutes later after I've just used the school policy to remove them from the room because it's completely and totally unacceptable and they come back in 5 minutes later, I'm obviously going to be not. I'm obviously not just going to be like, oh, that hasn't crossed my mind. I'm going to be thinking about, oh, that's the child that just told me to F off, which is still in my brain because I'm a human being. But do.

11:39 You think I, I, I personally think that as a professional you should be able to compartmentalise that and not be personally rattled by it. The the the annoyance that would come from me and the reason I would feel like it's unacceptable for them to come back is not because I feel, oh, woe is me you told me to wear for I feel so offended. It's more that that sets a precedent that it's OK to do that and that that line has been crossed by you and there's seemingly no retribution whatsoever. The rest of the class see that and think, well, why, why am I doing this the way I can do what I want now that that's what I I I'd become. I'd feel more rattled at the president that it's setting of what's acceptable rather than a person. I I would not feel a personal rattle at a 12 year old telling me to have. Off. Yeah, OK, I guess I'm I'm going to try tie two things together because I'm sort of in the middle of that in in a way I think I'm not saying I wouldn't.

12:23 No, no, I agree. I. I, I wouldn't, I I think there's room as a professional to not feel personally offended by something like that, but just but still have a problem with it on the wider. Yeah, what you're saying is, is a better expansion of what I'm trying to say really, because I I would be a little bit rattled in terms of it would obviously annoy me that someone told me to F off, but I would be able to get over it and compartmentalise as a teacher who's experienced and deals with this sort of stuff all the time. But when they come back in and me being able to compartmentalise is now just back to completely lovey dovey. Normal, normal, normal, I think is the is the problem. It's basically what you said. It then sets the precedent of, oh look, that person that told the teacher to F off has come back in. The teacher seemingly is completely fine with it. Yeah, because actually you have, you have compartmentalised and you've moved on and you're not going to ask the teacher be like, oh, I can't, I can't. Look, now do that.

13:03 That child swore at me. You're obviously going to deal with it and compartmentalise it. But the pressure that is set is that child can come back in. Everyone's OK with it. The teacher's completely fine with it. It hasn't affected them in whatsoever. Cool. We all know that's how it works now. Yeah, I don't like that. Yeah, yeah, sure. No, it makes sense. I'm it, it, there's, I guess there's a wider point here we can just briefly touch on. We've done so many episodes on Behaviour. It's actually some of our most listened to episodes have been on Behaviour. So if you're on Spotify, wherever you're listening to the podcast, if you search Behaviour at the top, they'll come up with a few episodes. They're well listened to. And I think we go into big detail about restorative practises in school where what consequences can and can't be. I don't think we need to rehash all of that, but just in general that I think it's absolutely fair enough to have a, a line of respect for professionals where we don't need someone coming back and just saying to us, oh, but it was just communication.

13:54 Honestly. There's no level of communication that makes it acceptable. There's a level of communication that makes us be able to understand why maybe they did that. There might be some deep underlying explanations as to why that child thought that was acceptable to do that point. It might have been the environment they've grown up in where that's normal language. It might have been something that happened that morning that set them off be some underlying needs that they have personally and especially educational needs, etc. There are lots of explanations as to why something can happen, but we don't have to pretend as a professional that. Therefore I'm going to excuse it. There are some things that the world won't change for you and there has to be a line of well, no matter what the reason is behind this, you cannot tell a teacher to fuck off in the middle of the lesson and there has to be something in place that makes that really clear.

14:38 I'm going to understand you, I get it. I'm not trying to make you feel awful all the time. But there is a line here and and just because XYZ doesn't mean that you can say that. Absolutely. There is a consequence and that consequence is hard written. It's hard coded with the the main difference in like, yeah, restorative practise and what, you know, other practises, right. It might just be there's a consequence some people are happy with. Cool, there's the consequence. Go away, kid. I don't want to address it and I'm not going to do anything to remotely help this situation. Some people will say here's the consequence, you've got to deal with it. I'm also going to do my absolute best utmost to try and help you and learn about the situation, find out the root causes and do something about that long term. That's, that's the good, that's. Good practise both, isn't it? I, I maybe I'm just naive here, but I see both as the way to go about it.

15:21 You have to, you have to have a consequence that you hold to and that is it. There's no sorry, there's no excuse, guys. That is, you cannot do that. There here is a consequence for it, but alongside that, I'm going to dig deep and trying to find the personal reasons why you're doing this, how I can help you develop emotionally. How can I how can I make sure it doesn't happen again? And that's going to be. Different for every child, yeah. It's, it feels like sometimes schools go down the restorative path, which is solely just about helping the individual and there's never any consequences and spirals. It seems like there's some draconian schools where it's just like consequence, consequence, consequence, repeat, repeat offenders, repeat offenders, repeat offenders. When I was in school, it was the same kids getting detention every week. Something was going wrong. Clearly, clearly something was going wrong. For years there was the same kids getting detention so nothing was being addressed. Both of these on their own to me, seem insane to think that that's suitable.

16:05 I agree there. Has to be. Both. Yep. OK, that's it. That's that's exactly what I think. Exactly that. So there you go. Is that three things today you've liked? You're doing. You're doing well today. I'm impressed. I'm not. I'm not gonna. Lie. Well, I'll let you read this one and yeah, try and get some limelight, yeah. What? What? I'll read it and you can answer it perfectly and I'll agree. OK, so no pressure. No pressure if you oh here we go, This is suits you, isn't it? If you were the Education secretary, what would be the top of your agenda to change first thing tomorrow? That's probably the hardest question to. Answer. That's a big question. Is it harder because you're too busy? You think about the ego, You'd get by. Yeah, yeah, 100 percent, 100%. I would go around with a big bad saying. No consequences for me. Yeah, you do as I say, not as I do. OK, firstly, I'm going to preface this for anyone listening that if I don't say the thing that you think's really important, it doesn't mean I don't think it's important, because this question asks for one thing. So if I don't mention the phone ban, for example, yeah, it doesn't mean I didn't get that phone ban. Let me just make sure right now no one's getting annoyed. And it's also because we're talking about that in our next episode.

17:09 OK? So that's why, that's why you mentioned that one. That's true. That's true. The number one thing I would change tomorrow if I was the education secretary. Oh my God, this is so hard. I would completely scrap Ofsted and from the ground up, build a completely new way of still keeping schools accountable, but in a way that's supportive and holistic and collaborative. That is not rooted in judge mental outcomes that that spark fear across schools up and down the country, but is built on helping people improve and pointing them in the right direction to do so and giving them tools to do so, actually improving standards, not just judging other schools. And I don't think that any amount of reforms within Ofsted can make that the body that I feel it needs to be because it's going to be tinkering around the edges. It needs to be fully scrapped in my opinion, get rid of it. And I'm, and I'm not saying get rid of it and hunky Dory schools can do what they want because schools have to be held accountable to the highest of standards. But there's a way to do that that I think is collaborative, helpful, and then still make sure schools are giving children what they need in a way that actually improves standards. Definitely.

18:22 We spoke about this a while ago when we when we looked at the Ofsted reforms. I remember part of our conversation was we can debate and argue about all the changes as much as you want, but like ultimately what annoyed me and maybe maybe you as well, was it just, it needed to be scrapped and rewritten from the ground. It needed to, but we needed to think outside the box. And all we did was just kind of repackage the existing box into a slightly different format. We're talking about parks, didn't we? We said we were in a park inside the fence of the park, and we're just going from between the swings and the roundabouts and the seesaw. No, the park is the park. Let's build a new park. Everything is broken. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly that, exactly that. So that's a good change. I think that would be a very worthwhile thing to do and also rooted in you could do that.

19:04 Like there were some things I was thinking of where I was like, they're just idealistic. Like if it's related to funding, I'm like ultimately at the Ed Ed SEC like I can't actually just. Hello, Rachel. Yeah, Yeah. Do you know what we have? Billions and billions of pounds. Exactly right. It's easier for us to sit there and say do that, but. But Rachel Rees would just turn around and say no, Yeah, so. Exactly that way as whereas with Ofsted that is well within your remit as Ed SEC to be like if I want to make this change and start reforming this however I want to, you really could start doing that. Do you know what I mean? I'm sure you'd get some pushback, but you. Could you could maybe there's something there in terms of maybe some issue that because I'm not saying reform, I'm saying scrap. Yeah, I'm saying I'm saying don't try and fix that, OK. It's like imagine this, there's a poo in the middle of the room.

19:45 But but the point is I don't think it's worth trying to fix that thing. There comes a point where your Hoover's broken, right? It keeps breaking. It's not it's not working properly. I'll get a new part. I'll change that part of the nozzle's gone. It's changed the nozzle got the poo in it. The suction. It's got a big poo in the middle of it. I'll clean it out. Right. There comes the point where you just. Say behind the Hoover. And that's what we need to do. Do you know what I need? A different brand. Yeah, exactly. I need a different brand and it needs to be a washing machine and it's not even I'm trying to clean my clothes for Hoover this whole time. This whole time and I live in a park. And I keep, I keep trying to actually how to fix the Hoover and it's not making my clothes any cleaner. Turns out I need a washing machine. Yeah, it's kind of the same in terms of you're trying to raise standards in schools. Yeah. Using a tool which won't raise standards whatsoever.

20:26 Yeah. Yeah, you need to get a washing machine that will raise standards. I'm loving these analogies today. They are just, they work, you know, they do work. And I hope listeners, you don't think we're just completely insane. Do you have you know, are you going to do what you literally said at the start and just. Go yeah, no, no, no, no. I, I had a couple in my mind. Offset was one of them because I think we talk about it a lot. Another one interestingly was was curriculum, but I feel like they're already tackling that. So I don't think. They're going far enough. I think we have to wait and see. Almost like that's why I don't really want to dive into that too much. The only other thing I had in my mind, I don't know if it, I don't know if it pushes too much into the like the funding thing. I'm I'm being unrealistic to me is. Like whenever I'm realistic on this podcast, Yeah, of course we say could be. Yeah, exactly. But like I feel like yours was a really good one in terms of you could just start doing it.

21:09 Sorry, I don't know, I'm too nice you. Feel like mine was a really. Good one it was, it was and great. John, I might just do this on my own, this podcast. Yeah, yeah, You just have all my thoughts. You just say them first. That's the problem. I would have, said Ofsted. I'm just, oh, you say them first and I say Bell. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So my 1 was Ofsted, but another one for me. Something to do something like parents I think. Benham been parents. Been parents. Yeah, yeah, there's clearly, clearly, clearly and has been for a long time an enormous issue in terms of inclusion in schools and how like the whole mainstream schools are catering for every, every single person's needs. We've got all this new ISP stuff coming out and the HTP reforms, all the all this stuff coming out the S with Sen and I'm like, and I just don't think it's right. I look at that and I'm like, parents are screaming out for more support, Schools are screaming out for more support. And I don't think the Band-Aid that we're starting to put on it is actually going to be a good fix. If you want to know more about that, just go back and literally listen to the episodes where we've talked about the SEND reforms or any of our reels on Instagram where we've done it and we mocked it by way.

22:10 I mean, me, just me. So that would be as I think if I said tomorrow, that'd be the first thing I'd want to start diving into. I'd be like, right, this is we are not fixing this. This is not the solution. Again, maybe scrap how we're looking at it right now, or at least drastically rethink what we are, what we genuinely think we're going to do to actually support every child who grows up in our country. I think you make a really good point about funding because my genuine opinion is that a lot of what is being introduced via the SEND white paper is a result of the hands being tied on funding. So, so I, I, I think it's a great point where I completely agree with you. And I'm, I'm not saying it's right, but I'm, what I'm saying is I do look at some of the reforms in the white paper. And I think the only reason that this would make sense is if it's because they're trying to make something work in a system that's already on the funds. They don't have billions to solve it. Why else would we trying to force children into mainstream in a mainstream curriculum where it feels like it's not the right place for them?

23:05 And I think a lot of people feel the same way. Yep. No, that's completely. Fair enough, if only like it'd be great we had the chance to speak to the education I know and ask her what her practise if I. Really. Will. We said this every day, didn't we just sort of leave people hanging? It'd be crazy if we left people hanging more, but it would be great. Yeah, it would be great if we had the opportunity to go and speak to. Her in like 3 or 4 weeks time. Yeah, that would be, it'd be good. Unfiltered questions and just sort of ask what we want and. That would be very good. Footage. But yeah, anyway, let's see. Another question, yeah, OK. How do you deal with a parent who just does not understand and how far behind their child is? We've tried the softly, softly approach but now are being much more direct, but they still don't seem to get it. I thought of a few parents immediately with this type of question where it's not a nice, you know, within our parents evening reports, etcetera. I think it's really good to be frank with parents. And as I got through my career, I got more confident in basically saying it at the start of my career, I was, I was, I'm going to be admitted.

24:01 I was scared to say to someone your child's really below in terms of their attainment. OK, I'm going to say below like below level it it. I got more confident as my career gone on. But then it made me also that obviously opened the door up to some parents who were really reactive to it, who really appreciated it. But some in this camp who I felt like I said it five times in a row, different ways to them, and they were still just like, oh, yeah, but she's so bright, isn't she? I'm like, I, I'm sorry, but in this context we're talking about, she isn't. She's a lovely girl. She's so polite. She's going to go far in life. She's fantastic. She's got all this going for her. She's going to be OK.

24:42 But you do need to understand, though, her reading is is below, she struggles with reading and that's going to be a key skill. So we need to try and work together to try and prove that you don't read that often at home with her. We don't get that. You've admitted that to me in this conversation. We know it's busy, but it would really, really, really help her. Oh, I know she she just don't want to read, does she? But she's, she'll be all right. Oh, oh, but I promise you, you should do this. Yeah, it's a lot of people. It's a, it's one of the most awkward conversations I think you can have as a teacher. I mean, parent exchanges can be quite awkward. Anyway, There are probably one of the harder elements, I think, for teachers to grasp 'cause you there's. No training is there? Not really. Training and ultimately like, like a lot of people will start quite young as teachers and you'll be talking to parents who are older than you. And that was certainly a thing of our, you know, majority of our career, to be fair.

25:29 And it's awkward. It's awkward. Like no one wants to tell someone else that their child isn't doing particularly well or isn't meeting the expectations that they think maybe they're meeting. I mean, there's a couple of things to this. Number one, I find it particularly hard when all of the predecessor teachers, I've also been softly, softly and not and not addressed it. And I found as a year 6 teacher and I'm having conversations with parents who you know, and you get the old time where a child is significantly behind it when it comes to maths and English. Let's just focus on maths and English. There's obviously a lot more to a child, but these are the conversations that normally come with awkwardness because we measure them so well. I mean, you can normally say, oh, your child is at this sort of year group level. And I've had children who are multiple years behind by this point and the parents don't know it. And I'm like, to me, but first thing that screams at me, I'm like, oh God. Like I really, really, really wish people had been more frank before this because now it's all this whole burden's fallen to me.

26:17 And there is a potential that they're going to think, and rightfully so. Well, every other teacher hasn't told me this. So it's your fault. They suddenly come to your class and now they're two years behind. So that might be a reason why they're maybe a bit dismissive about it. Exactly, exactly that. And it falls, that burden then falls on you as a teacher. Who's then who's picking up those pieces? Who's delivered the truth? Yeah, you deliver the truth, Really. And it looks like, OK, it's your fault almost. Because other teachers haven't said that. And the reality was they were behind in previous years. But the teachers just go. How can they be in a year 4 level at year 6 when they were fine in Year 5? Yeah, exactly. Honestly, they weren't, but they weren't where they where you think they were. So firstly, I think there needs to be a unanimous approach across the school. I think there should be some staff training on like how we deliver that sort of feedback to parents because I feel like that was definitely lacking in my career. I don't really.

26:58 Think, no, I, I, if anything, the interest here at listeners think about that because I reckon that's lacking everywhere in terms of there's no, you know, I think, yeah, communication is hard to get right. I think we've run our own businesses, we've run in lots of schools. Communication consistently, even with the best of intentions, usually crops up as an issue no matter where you're at. And that to me, that's, that's another, you know, symptom of that where there has to be clear communication, where actually as a teacher, it's your job to deliver this information 100%. It can be in a nice way, but you have to deliver that information. So I think that's my second point then about delivering the information. If you're in that situation where let's say the other thing wasn't so much of a problem, genuinely, it's just the parents just not getting it. Like you've, like you've said, you've said it three times in different ways of like this is where your child's out.

27:42 I just think the only way you can talk at the end of the day, you can't actually secure that problem completely, but you can tackle it as much as you can by presenting information at multiple points in the year. I think it's 1 and in multiple different ways. I think sometimes we rely on it just being, I'm reading off my sheet of information, it's verbal, maybe a visual might help, maybe some writing might help. And doing that a couple of times across the year, I think we'll catch 99.999% of people and they will actually understand where their child's at. You still might get the old person that somehow they've been given a graph, they've been given written information. You've told them three times in the year and for some reason they're not listening. At that point, I'm like, I don't know what else I can do. Like I've given you this information in many as many ways as I can.

28:22 I get the impression sometimes some parents who push back and kind of it feels like they don't want to hear it. It's a bit of a defence mechanism sometimes, sure, because they sat in front of the teacher. They, they, they don't want to feel like their child's, but they might feel personally responsible, but have not been reading etcetera with them or whatever. And sometimes I've, I've had that conversation where our parents being like that and dismissive almost. It's fine. It's fine. You, you've just told me how amazing she is. I care more about how lovely she is and as a person and, and her maths is OK. Like it's it. Everything they're saying is fine up until when they just go, and that's fine. I'm like, oh, but two things can exist. Yeah, two things. You can believe that it's more important. They're a well-rounded person. I'd probably agree with you, Right? But there are some things that if your child can't read properly though, and they are 9, we have to both be on the same page here and accept that's the reality because there's only going to be one way that we fix that. It's by both accepting that.

29:11 And sometimes it's definitely a defensive thing. No one wants to hear that. But then I've noticed afterwards through just being persistent, even though it feels like you're not getting through to them, an uptake in how much they're reading, an uptake in how much they're doing at home. So it's not always a lost cause just because it feels that way. It's it's something to keep an eye on and you know, as as a teacher, it can be bit relenting for the 4th time, for the fifth time, separate time of saying the same thing. Yeah, but it but it is our job. And one thing that is important though, is you never, ever, ever, ever get rude because I, I think that would be easy for someone to, to go. I've got that. I've told you 4 times, I'm going to be so frank next time that it's actually quite blunt and rude. I, I think it is so unprofessional and you should never do that, no matter how annoying it is that it's not getting through.

29:51 You have to maintain literal professionalism and being polite. And at the end of the day, I wasn't about you. But like I've had a probably a couple of parents in my career who have like got literally visibly upset over because it means so much to them. And hearing anything that isn't just my child's doing it completely finding exactly where they should be, he's upsetting. And that like, breaks my heart. Like. I hate. I hate that So I understand why people go down softy softy approach because no one wants to sit there in front of a parent and make them feel upset about the progress of their child. That is like one of the worst feelings ever. But there is a point where you have to just like it up and say this parent has the right to know exactly where their child is and and it's my job to be as truthful as possible in the most polite and professional way I can. You have to balance them.

30:33 Good answer, well done. Thanks for contributing after half an hour. Oh, you were being nice and then you brought it back. Go on, go if we can. If we can return the message, me or you. Oh, you. Don't even know it's your own podcast. Crikey, you need me, You need me. You read the last one. OK, got it. So here's on. You shouldn't start reading any of you. You shouldn't, Yeah. Can we ever really teach reading for pleasure? It feels like forced fun to me and I hate when people say something like first rule, have fun. I immediately don't feel like having fun. If a child can't read, what's pleasurable about that? It's fair enough. I've said this a long time. I don't think you can teach reading for pleasure. No, I think the the the role of a school and the job of a teacher is to facilitate the chance for children to enjoy reading.

31:16 And that can be through lots of ways. So yeah, I absolutely agree. I think, I think I hear sometimes people say they've been told in their timetable they've got 15 minutes slot, which is for reading for pleasure. And it comes from a nice place and it can be done really well. But it's just, it's just funny to me in the surface where it's like, right, kids, pack up your stuff, it's time to read for pleasure. But obviously you can't do that. Like we're all going to enjoy this book. Now we're reading. Reading for pleasure for me is, is a, is a ethos, it's a vibe. It's what you do all of the time where you facilitate an environment for children to enjoy any type of reading that's good for them because it will look different for that kid, for that kid, for that kid, for that kid. You can have a nice corner where there's some books that are readily available. You can have some nonfiction texts. You know your class are into that. You can have some rules in place where children understand that there's a bit of downtime.

32:02 They can read their book for a bit. There's so much you can implement. I think it has to be school wide. It has to be consistent, has to be all day. It's not time. There's not timetable. Reading for pleasure. Let's not do that. It's not timetable and say, well, I've got this tick to box show off stairs. We do reading pleasure 15 minutes a day. It doesn't work like that to truly actually have an impact on the children, which is what I want to actually change their minds and to give them the chance to almost feel like they're doing that themselves. It's about giving them opportunities across the board to do so. So I, I, I completely understand where this question is coming from because it's probably coming from a place where they've been told reading pleasure is important. Make sure your kids are reading for pleasure. And then that's the end of the conversation. There has to be more to it.

32:42 I absolutely fell victim to that, by the way. I'll, I'll happily put my hands up and say there were there were times in my career where there was some sort of timetable part scheduled in of reading for pleasure at the end of the day, being of the day, wherever it was right. And the whole point was, in that time, kids read their books independently, and maybe even you read your book as a teacher as well to show it, to model them. All this stuff, I don't think that's necessarily. Bad. Me neither, but the whole point here was the kids. In that time, I can hold my hands and say I didn't. It wasn't about the ethos for me. It was about, oh, in this moment. I tell the kids that we're reading for pleasure now and they all read their books and I make them all read, right. And the kids that don't like reading obviously did anything they could do not read because this didn't make it any more pleasurable. For them, do you know what that was? That was independent reading? Yeah.

33:22 It's just called a spade a spade. It's independent reading. If a kid doesn't enjoy reading, they're not going to suddenly enjoy reading. Exactly that that was, but I thought it was because someone told me that's reading for pleasure. But really that had nothing to do with encouraging or fostering reading for pleasure. Like the improvement movement of that in your school because it is an ethos thing. You're absolutely right. So do you think then send it back to you? Do you think there is there is a space to say that some schools can do reading for pleasure better by the things they do to the ethos than other schools? Yeah, 100%, absolutely. Because I also think there's, I don't think there's one way of teaching reading for pleasure. I don't think there's one way of doing it. That's why I said it's an ethos, because an ethos is vague and including myself, a lot of people don't like vagueness. They want answers. They want what can I do to improve reading for pleasure. There's loads of actionable things you can do, but I think it depends on your class, it depends on your group, it depends on your year group, it depends on your school. Like it depends on so much.

34:12 It depends on the resources you have available or not. So when I'm saying it's an ethos, I think you can still tell people like actionable tips of what to do. You could still help people out by in like in each room, encouraging there to be at least a space for reading at least something where you know, books are on display or easily, you know, even even down to how they're displayed. They're slightly open stood up so you can see the front covers, not just like filed away on the side. There's little things and actions that there's been lots of reading frameworks that have been released. There's been lots of people who are really passionate about books on on social media sites. And I said, this is what you can do. Yeah. I think there's loads of little things you can do constantly that I think add to it and add to it. I don't think there's such a thing as tick box do reading for pleasure. Yeah, I think, I think there are. There are some schools that do a bit. There are some schools that do a lot. We're all on some sliding scale.

34:56 And I'm not going to be the person to come in and say, well, this is where the line is. You have to be at least doing that. Yeah, it's not true. It's an ethos and you build and you work at it and you change stuff and you try stuff and you do stuff and you as a staff team and SLT understand what the outcomes are by by saying, by giving the trust your professionals to say what do your children need? If I walked in at 10:45 and actually on on should be maths time right now and I walked into a classroom and that they were maybe they were doing maths and a couple of kids genuinely were reading something in the corner right. My gut, my guttural instinct there would not be unacceptable. My guttural instinct would be, I'm sure there's a reason for that.

35:37 They seem to be enjoying themselves doing some reading. I don't think the teacher is suddenly thinking mass is unimportant for that child. No, it's an ethos, it's an idea and I think freedom to professionals and good training and lots of ideas that would like almost like a cauldron of ideas that you take from definitely is a is a fantastic way to do this. And in that situation, if you really want to know, just talk to the teacher after you find out and they'll tell you. And if you and if it's not an acceptable answer, then you can as a manager do what you need to do exactly if it is and go cool, well done. That's. Nice and that's that's what I was trying to do there is explain what I mean by just not just timetabling yeah yeah yeah yeah like OK we do reading for pleasure from 2:15 till half two every day so if I walk around the school every I'd walk in every kid would be reading the. Book. Yeah, that's not reading the book. They get detention because.

36:17 They're not pleasurable. Reading, yeah, that'll work. That'll help them. Yeah, definitely. I think even just reflecting, you said there's actionable things and I was just thinking about even my career and there's two things that come to mind that I feel like I saw. I was like, oh, this is this is like this is definitely having an impact in the classroom. And obviously I like you said, there's a cauldron of things you can do. Number one is literally, that sounds really stupid, but it is something we should do. The the variety and options of books that are literally available for your children completely at their fingertips. Whatever the closest version is for them of their library or bookshelf, whatever's in your classroom. Honestly, just having some sort of monitoring of of the books that are available does make a huge difference. Because when I put some time into making sure there's a variety in there, suddenly I had more kids that are interested in picking back books because they were more interesting. I was like, who'd have thought it? There's books that other kids are. Interested in not just Tracy Beaker anymore? I might try and read that now.

37:04 Yeah, right. So it seems really obvious, but it's just something you have to actively do as a teacher. And the second thing I found I had more of an impact maybe than I thought it would. And I noticed this again over 10 years through changing the texts we read. Whenever we had a class text, whether it was embedded into English or it was just a class text for the sake of having a book to read together, whatever the context was doesn't really matter. But like, really like the book that you pick there sometimes had an astronomical impact on the amount of children that then went away and wanted to read other books from that author or within that genre. And I was always shocked at how much that did. I just thought, oh, kids will just see it as the book the teachers read and they've got to do some work around it. They don't really care. And then I read something like Emma Carroll Letter from the Lighthouse and the amount of kids after who went away and made their parents by Emma Carroll books or kids who didn't normally engage of reading who I could see were totally captivated by this story and then their word count went up by that.

37:54 Word count. That's the only way to make. It but whatever it is, but I could see, I could see having you seen him is the point. And I was like, that had more impact than I thought it were just through the literal text. And when I've read books that I thought were good, maybe some get some good learning points out of them, but they're not super exciting as texts. Surprise, surprise, it didn't really have an impact on kids going to read for pleasure because the book wasn't that exciting. So it really is important what text you pick as a teacher. I I always go back to Varjak Paul because there were, there were lots of good books you read and the kids, the kids, children tend to enjoy stories. It's like we're, we're wired as humans to enjoy narratives, right? So kids like stories, but there are obviously some that captivate children more. Every single time I did Project Poor, it was insane how it captivated the children were to the point where they were both annoyed that the story had ended for the day, but buzzing to go and do their work because it was to do with something we've just been doing.

38:42 And I, I remember this exact example of a child who, you know, didn't mind reading. They, they have asked the children to do independent reading. They'd be the perfect example of a child who'd sit there quietly and read their book. And someone walked in my ticker box and say, well, reading for pleasure is happening right now. Yeah, they were just reading. They weren't necessarily having the best time in the world. Went and read the second Vortex Vajrek Paul book. There's there's one after it and ferociously read through it. Like I was talking to me about it all the time and was animated by what was going on. That's the difference. That child would have carried on reading and would have got the word count up and would have been seen as a child who was doing some reading. And that's fine. It's not a problem through me and the year group choosing Varjak poor.

39:24 They continued reading, but they read the book that's next in the sequel and they were buzzing. They were happy. They were talking to me about the pleasure pleasure. So that that to me really highlights what we mean by reading for pleasure. There is a difference between those two and there might be on paper someone looking at it going, well, that child was reading. Either way, there's no need for any intervention. That's fine. They're getting the outcomes, the word counts going up, the quizzing on a book that's called they're reading nice. No. The difference there is in this is the difference between reading and reading for pleasure. That child loved that act of reading there. It wasn't because I needed them to read more, it was because I wanted them to enjoy reading. It had that impact, which was less measurable but clear for me to see as a professional in the room that they were enjoying it more.

40:05 Can I put that down on the spreadsheet somewhere? No. Does that therefore mean it's pointless and then we can't possibly do anything about it? No, and it goes back to what I'm saying about ethos. That is where the ethos kicks in. I can't do a spreadsheet about it, but I can see it having an impact on the children in my room and that's what we need to do. Such a fascinating way of thinking about the fact that it's for reading for pleasure is for everyone, even the people that even the kids that already read exactly like they can still find books. They're more interested in them and have more pleasure in reading. Like it's not, it's not the goal isn't actually can I, the optic, can I see kids reading in a certain amount? The goal is, are they enjoying it completely? And it's not just the children. Yeah, So interesting because I very much before this, I was very much just thinking of the kids who aren't reading as the thing that I'm trying to tackle to get them to start enjoying.

40:47 Reading which is which is a fine thing to try and tackle Important. Definitely, but I was totally disregarding the children who are seen to read right and not really thinking about what are they enjoying it or not. Because I was one of those kids. I, I, I didn't like reading. I did it enough and I and I, I did it enough genuinely to be good at. Yeah. And, and, and that also, let's not, let's not pretend that's not important. It is. Of course it is. You have to be doing that. That's fine. But this is like the you're right, the enjoyment's like the next. Step you know, although would it would it have benefited my life if there was some more or thought around the ethos of getting me to enjoy reading a bit more honestly probably would have transformed my life in. Different. You could have been carrying on reading and then when you're 30 and 35 and still enjoy reading, yeah, it's gonna have more of an impact on you then as well. So it's a long term. 100%, yeah.

41:29 It's really important. I don't know. I think that's, I think that's really, really important. All right, let's finish up there. We've as always got more questions which we will put into next week. And I tell you what, some of the questions we started with today were from last week where? We're becoming efficient. Are we doing podcasting for pleasure right now? Yeah, we are. We just podcasting. We're actually just doing the basics of a job to answer a. Few job they get paid for a job. Yeah, well, yeah. Jobs should be pleasurable. This is a vocation I'll have you know. You do it for the audience. Oh, think about the audience. You want the questions. Answered. Can you come in early? Guys, thank you so much for listening. You can review us, you can share it. It helps us out massively. If you've got this far, I'm going to ask you for that favour. Just just help us out a little bit. Share us on socials Share this podcast episode to your teacher group.

42:13 Do something where we get our voices out there a bit more. Because if you're enjoying it, everyone else can as well, right? Do something where we benefit. Exactly. That's what I heard. And Hayden said at least three times that the things I said were good. Yeah, Which I won't be doing again. No, and just leave you on this. There's a in the room. God's sake, No. See you later.