Ep 157: Q&A - Endless Pointless Data, Disgraceful TA Pay & Teacher Tired Stories!

0:00 Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Tea Sleep Repeat. My name is Dylan. And my name's Hayden. And we're back with another question and answer episode. Hayden, I've got my tea. My third you think? 3 teas in your life. 4 went golf the other day, had a cup of tea whilst I was going. Round Classic. Warm me up. Yeah, that is the kind of thing to have when you play. Golf. It is, genuinely. Is it? Yeah, surely not. You don't talk to me about doing sports. Thanks. You're having a flask. No, it was in like a little, you know, just a take out cup you know from the cafe. I was like can I have a cup of tea please, £1.90 for a tea is that, is that all? I don't know. I don't. I don't drink tea. You drink tea now, mate. I'm a tea. Drinker, drinker. Anyway, Hayden, can you tell these lovely people where they can send us questions in? They can send questions in the WhatsApp community. Guys please do join.

0:44 It is getting funnier every single day. I was saying to Dylan earlier, the WhatsApp community cracks me up on a daily basis. So do join in. Come and submit your questions or just join in with the banter. So what? The way it works, people who aren't sure is you can join and simply just get announcements. You don't join any groups where people actually send messages. If you don't, if you're not that way inclined, if you don't want those messages reminder people, that's fine. But and you can just get announcements from those links, etcetera. Being able to submit your questions for Google forms or you can literally join our discussion group, which honestly, I just pick up my phone in the evening. It absolutely cracks me up. It's nice to have you in there if you want to join down below, but I think we should get started. Let's do it. First question, is it normal to be expected to use assessment tracking for every single statement taught every week and grade every single child?

1:29 I'm getting a vibe already. I'm an ECT that's an early careers teacher at the start of their career and know no different but this seems excessive no? The school bangs on about well-being but does stuff like this. They even said what would we do if you suddenly died? The data. The data would only be in your head. Oh my. God, I'm sorry. I know you're trying to read a question, but I just, I can't. I can't deal with this. There's so many things. So I'm packing this. I don't know where to start. I know I'm like what? OK, firstly, if you've been listening a long time, you know I'll die on this hill. Assessments for the afternoon subjects for a start. I know this is every single statement of everything ever but the afternoon subjects It's not needed.

2:10 You're it's not needed. You really die in the hill of at all, don't you? I find this fascinating. So pointless. It's so pointless. But like something. OK, look, all right, there's. Because I point you just missed every statement thing. Yeah, I think the fact is every statement is the problem. But you you just think. Yeah. Do you know what? Look, I did, I have a problem when I worked in a school where it was like, at the end of the term, just literally spend 5 seconds per kid just saying roughly where they are in that subject. I didn't mind that. That was all right. That to me, is that normal? I'm like, OK, yeah. They're not very good at geography. Still felt like a bit of a waste. Yeah, still, because I was like, it still ultimately went nowhere and didn't impact the next unit of planning that we did on something completely different topic or not, the next teacher next year doesn't go, oh, I must dig out those geography assessments from last year, Just check where these kids are at before I start teaching them. Mountains.

2:58 Sorry, what do you mean the children's ability to understand how rivers are formed doesn't affect their human geography in the north of England? In in my head a little bit that you gonna mention rivers within the. Next 10 seconds. I just asked so that's my first thing. So firstly. Yeah, let's ask the question first, then we'll address the elephant in the room of the toxic SKT. OK, Is it normal to be expected? Honestly, yeah. That's the annoying thing about this job. Do you think it's, do you think it's widespread? I think so, yeah. And that's why I have such a problem with it. I'm sure there are some sane schools out there that they look at that and think, oh, do I need my teachers completely wasting their time every day doing all this? We didn't in our in our last school really did. True, we didn't. And if we were meant to, I certainly didn't. Which is more likely the case? More likely the case, but I just know purely from the amount of people we speak to through this podcast that this isn't the first time I've heard someone mention some mental assessment scheme where it's like, I always think back to our hexagon policy where I have to fill in.

3:49 There's just always something someone sends me a picture being like, oh, is this how you do your, your red, your red, amber, green assessments with the gold and the blue at the end? And you have to do it for each tiny objective and each day of every single lesson of every week. I'm like, no. For every individual child mind. For every. Yeah, it's just. Yeah, but then I, I used to find it funny when when someone in leadership, instead of like, you know, just listening to their staff say #1 we don't use this. Yeah #2 it's wasting time. Like it's only for us and we don't use it. So can we stop? Instead of being like, you know, let's think about that. Their reply was always, that's all right. You can just select all the pupils and put expected. Just put a couple up and a couple down. Pointless then. Yeah, why? Pointless then, because I used to do that and I promised you it was wrong.

4:30 Like if you actually were to look at it and dig deep, it was wrong. I spent my whole career never doing it properly. Nothing ever changed. It didn't matter if it was right or wrong. I couldn't tell you whether I put someone as green or blue or gold or bloody amber. I don't, Madam Mayor. My next lesson was my next lesson. I just supported them in the classroom. And if they didn't quite grasp it, we just tried again next time. Can I expose myself a little bit here? I'm not in teaching anymore so I can do it. So I can do it. This is this is not safe for what we do. Film this podcast, Hayden, just to remind you something I did. I'm just fine. I can say it now. And you know what? I'm not even an advocate of this. I do actually think that you should just follow your school's policies and then and then use it as evidence to say, look, this didn't work. I did it properly, but it didn't work.

5:11 But me being stubborn and an old fool, right? There was one year where I just thought, Nah, screw the system. And with one of my afternoon subject assessment sheets, I just thought, I wonder if I can just not do it all year. And I will just genuinely, because it goes nowhere and I knew it didn't go anywhere. So I thought I'll prove a point. And I just did exactly what you did. I put them everyone expected and just press random buttons in terms of making it look different because I just wanted to test whether they would say, oh, that doesn't make sense. Oh, you put this child as great. They've got evidence. No one cared. No one looked at it, no one challenged, no one questioned. It went in the bin at the end of the year. It's completely pointless, bad practise, terrible. I don't actually recommend doing that. That's awful. Yeah, but the option should be to just not do it then.

5:53 Exactly, that was my point. I spent more of my time when I was filling out this kind of stuff like the rag sheets and stuff for like individual pointless things. I spent more of my time thinking, does this look OK? Yeah. Does this look like an acceptable she for a class? Is there is there enough greater depth? I'm going to put a few more working towards Andy. Have greater depth. Obviously I'm modest. I'm modest. We're not all greater depth here. I spent more time thinking what looked decent and then bumping people up to greater depth because I needed a three. I needed three or four of them, didn't I in my class? Complete waste of time, complete nonsense. This was actually from our WhatsApp group. It was someone just putting out there like, is this normal? And someone replied who changed career from a data hungry industry, so knows about this kind of thing. And he was just saying how he finds it astonishing how this is so widespread in schools. And he said he used this phrase and I thought, yeah, it's perfect.

6:39 The casual use of pointless data. Yes, school is full of pointless data. And unfortunately, and this is not a rib on the people who work in a school, you're not trained in really understanding data and really being able to scrutinise to see if the use of the data is good or bad. All we get in schools a lot of the time is simply just we need data. Yeah. So the actual quality of it, what it's being used for, whether it's even useful to have in the 1st place becomes redundant because all really leadership end up caring about a lot of the time is does it exist? Does it exist? Yeah, Yeah. But I don't use it in the future. Don't care that that part of it's irrelevant to me. That part of this data is pointless. That's all data should be. You should only be collecting data for the purpose of using it for good in the future, not simply to say, well, it exists.

7:24 That's good, isn't it? Yeah, I'm going to throw this over to you though the second part of this what if, sorry, they question this person said their school questioned. Well, what have you suddenly died. The data would only be in your head, would it go and talk to the kids. They I I can't believe that. I can't believe the idea that that's true. The data like as if like the data this import this crazy information that only the teacher over a huge amount of time could possibly have grasped like, yeah, OK, it is useful information. The teacher has a fantastic insight, but it's not something that that SLT can't come in and also work out or should already even know just by being in the school or another teacher could grasp like I'm sorry, but in that extreme situation, what if you suddenly died?

8:05 Okay, firstly, I'm dead. That's horrendous. Like this is this is this is a very, very, very extreme. Let's not skip over this time. Political. Yeah. Can we not ignore the fact that I'm dead in this? Sorry, actually, because I don't really care at that point because I'm dead. But it's like this is, it's such an extreme example. Do you know what I mean? Where I'm like, I think in that example, which doesn't happen very often, I will say in teaching, we should probably just get another teacher in and and pick up the pieces and start working from there and not worry too much about the data that was in my head that I didn't write down about their geography. We can go over it. Yeah, we would get. I think we'll skip the fact that geography has got a hole in it and focus on the fact one of our colleagues has passed on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's insane. Maybe that data should be. To me, data is a representation of the truth, right.

8:47 So the proof exists. The thing already happens, it's there, right? So, for example, whether a child grasps an understanding of a statement that you've taught them in the afternoon lessons, that either exists or it doesn't. The fact that the data on a spreadsheet in a cloud system exists or not doesn't change the fact that that's true or not. Exactly. So you could have no data at all. You could have data that you've just fluffed and made-up. You could have really intense data that you've really looked at the books for and interviewed the child and spent hours and hours doing. That's as representative as possible of the truth. All of those situations don't change the fact that the kid either understands it or doesn't. Yeah. And then you could walk into the classroom tomorrow and say, hey, kid, how's a river formed? What are the three parts of a river? And they'll be able to tell me they wouldn't suddenly go. Sorry, sorry, Sir.

9:35 I think I know, but but the teacher didn't put it all the rags is machines. Yeah, yeah. It's. Complete nonsense back the kid. There's such a funny disconnect isn't it? Like yeah it's so true. Also just just for a bit of clarity, Dylan only ever taught rivers at school so his his class is new. Absolutely bloody everything about rivers, every single week of every term. Didn't write down though. Didn't write it down. So we don't know if they actually learned. It or not, I don't know why what this is. This is an interesting question to put out. Maybe we'll put it if you're listening on Spotify, go down in the comments right now and just put, if someone was to ask you to think of an afternoon topic, what comes to your mind straight away? Because to me it's just rivers. If you say give me a give me a primary school afternoon topic, rivers, It's it's there. I don't know why.

10:19 Maybe it's because I remember when I first started training to be a primary school teacher. No, no. You were in a river getting thought it was pretty weird. It was. I went to a school, but it's weird. It was a school of fish. It was actually a school. I got the wrong memo. Went to see a school of fish and ever since then I thought I need to know about rivers. But when when I was training, I was in a year six class and they were doing rivers and there's this big display about all the different vocabulary words. And I just remember thinking to myself, they need to know that because I don't like I'm trained to become a teacher and I seem they seem to think I'm capable of doing that job. I don't know how tributary is really like I still right now I couldn't with all confidence, honestly. You say to you right now, what a tributary. But there's there's so many things and stuff like that where I'm like, I learn it, I cram it from the topic and then I genuinely forget it for the next year because it's so.

11:05 Pointless. I don't think they'd like, I think the teacher not knowing something on the top of their head automatically makes something pointless for the kids to land. I don't think so. But but I did just think to myself like we're putting a lot of emphasis on rivers. It seems like a huge part of the curriculum. So anyway, it's just stuck with me. But yeah, I've always been interested in your thoughts on assessment like that. I don't think we ever did it properly. Our practise was quite good. You know, I've got to say it for ourselves right now. We were quite good teachers. Our kids made progress. They did well things. Yeah, exactly. I never did. I never took it seriously. The fact that you know what, this summarises it for me because I was at ACT. The fact that an ECT straight away like within the first year where you'd think if this data was ever going to be used. Second year ECT. Second year, sorry, but in fact this data was ever going to be useful.

11:47 It's going to hope, surely it's going to be for those people that are still training, right? The fact that new teachers are coming in and being like this seems a bit excessive and pointless. Yeah, it is. Because it is. You've already it's taken you one year or two years to realise that you don't need this in any way. And I tell you what, the experienced teachers don't need it even more because they, they've done this for another eight years. They're no one needs this data. Oh. Oh, oh, sorry, what have you died? Oh wow, that's it then, then then the kids progress goes down the pan. No one could possibly pick it up. It's almost as if like starting a new year with with your class, as if like you know you have to learn them and and a new teacher coming in would have to figure out what they can and can't do do. You know when you kill the head, like when you kill Dracula, all the vampires, when the teacher goes nothing, all the all the day progress. Yeah.

12:32 Just melts. All right, next question. Good question. Shall we a bit of respite that was meant to be a serious one. Let's see how this one goes. What's the most unhinged thing you've done while exhausted during turn time brackets other than record a podcast days after having a child? Firstly, that is the funniest thing you've ever done in your whole life. That podcast, I got to say from your listeners, we always point them back to it, but it's, I still get messages about it. Yeah, like I still get people say, oh, but that episode. But you hadn't slept for like 3 days and then we recorded for some reason. No, because what? I'll tell you why it was, it was like 2 weeks after war was born. We recorded it 10 days to two to two weeks. And the reason was I just needed two hours to do something.

13:13 I just needed to go into your house. I need to leave the house for just because it had been such a slog. No sleep, completely unhinged. You you started this one then what's the most unhinged thing you've done whilst exhausted during time? I remember when I started my new school, so I got a new job somewhere else. Within the first couple of a couple of weeks I was just completely knackered. You know, it's like at the start of the term, yeah, I left my house and I drove to my old school. Hasn't it didn't work anymore? The one where I didn't work anymore and I got all the way to the gate and I was like, oh, I don't work working so funny. So to drive to the other side of town, OK, that that is the ultimate. Just went into autopilot. Wasn't thinking about anything, not even like I didn't even get halfway and go, this is this is odd. This is where I've been going.

13:58 Yeah, yeah, I went all the way to the school game and I had to just keep driving. I tell you what, that is a thing though, isn't it? When you're driving in general, when going into autopilot? I've done it a lot of times where I'm driving in a particular direction that I where I go to somewhere a lot, but I'm going somewhere else and I accidentally drive to the place I go to a lot. It happens all the time. MY1 funny off again to mine is also of the same autopilot ilk. So it was in the morning. The morning routine is also the same, isn't it, that you just get up, you're tired as anything, you just do what you need to do, get to school. And I drove my way to school and as I was walking through I the gates, I was like, Oh, this was comfy. I realised I had my trainers on. I just, I first I didn't put my school shoes on. I just put my trainers on for a reason. I got all the way to school and I was like, I can't teach in my trainers. So I drove home.

14:38 To my shoes. I can't because it looks so stupid. I couldn't be bothered. I wouldn't be. I care because I purely right. This is myself perspective. I couldn't be bothered with everyone being like, oh, where are you trainers today? Oh God. Oh yeah, for the fifth time I've heard that. I was like, I can't I? Can't possibly wear trainers. I wear my old battered 66 year old brown shoes that I've wore for my whole career. I said I should have taken them off and just gone barefoot. You imagine that in class What I thought. You were going to say you're feeling comfortable, you're watching naked. That's no, just in my dreams that happens when you walk in. I'm not wearing trousers or something. Hate those dreams. I remember 1 where I I was, I was teaching. This is more recent, much more recent, which makes it more embarrassing really. I got halfway through a maths lesson and I realised that it was the lesson I taught yesterday. You already thought it.

15:26 I, I personally, I taught it the day before I got halfway through and I went, oh, the kids must say anything. Yes, but but like only then when I realised they're like, this is easy, Sir. I was like, you do really well done this. I think that we did this one of the kids, we did this yesterday and I was like no. And then I looked, I checked that it's the exact same thing. I printed the worksheets. I can't believe you didn't know. It's like even at the printing stage. I can't remember what it was, but it was. That's so funny. Clearly something where we did a progression and my progression was do the same thing again. So I owned it and I was like, we just recapping yesterday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Recapping, recapping.

16:08 With the same slides Sir, same size, got recap, same worksheet in my book. Recap, recap, recap. Big part of fluency. I got more right yesterday. Recap. Do it again. Do it again love. But it was yesterday. I remember the answers. Been a new day, new day, new you. And I'll tell you what, if you're not careful, I won't write it down. Then it won't exist. You won't know it, will you? Oh, that's mad. I've again similar 1. You just reminded me of things that I've done. So one time I thought it was term 5 and it was term 4 and I thought I know I was in your sex as well, and I thought an afternoon topic for two weeks, two weeks from term 5. But I was in term. 4 So I kind of got the end of the unit. My job share actually was like confused because she was about to move on to the next thing. She's like, where have have you done? Have you done this?

16:50 The history? And I was like, yeah, yeah, I've done it. I've done it. She was like, you've taught this one. It was I was completely a term off. I literally thought it was a different term for two weeks. Like oh just lost it. Completely lost it. Oh, just goes to show how really important the order is. Of teacher. Yeah, it really. Did How on earth could we cut? There's been loads of unhinged things. I think teacher tired. There's a reason why that's a meme that grows because it's a thing. Let us know your stories of when you've been back and maybe they could join the WhatsApp group and let's tell us that. And whilst they're here, why don't they give us a review? Oh yes, because I see I always say this. How many of you listen and how many reviews we've got? They're not quite close. Doesn't match up. Doesn't actually. So you're listening right now thinking that's me.

17:31 Well, go and do a review then. Thank you. Pipe starts preferably. Preferably, definitely. OK next question, any tips on how to use your time wisely to support children when you do not have a teaching assistant? I have 33 children with lots of needs and abilities in my room. I'm finding it impossible. There are always multiple hands up during independent work. They are a very very needy cohort anyway. But I don't know how to effectively support all of them during lessons and activities, especially in maths, English, reading etcetera. So if you have any advice that would be great. What would you do? Thanks in advance. Love listening to your podcast, it gets me motivated, ready and smiling before. Wow. That's so nice. Just before you're ground down by the system. No support.

18:15 Yeah, I feel like I think, again, I should go back to you for this one because I know, I know that you spent most of your career not with the TA and actually, I don't know if it's controversial, kind of preferred to have a class by yourself. It's true. It is kind of controversial when you say it, but I'm going to give context. Yeah. The reason why I tend to prefer being on my own in the classroom is because I'm quite bad at managing like the I'm quite bad at managing my teaching assistant in the lesson, right? And I know that that's a, you know, I think a big part of teaching is understanding the 17 things you've got to be good at and you're going to be stronger at other stuff, right. And one of my weak points is definitely that like, I love having a teaching assistant. Some of my favourite colleagues in the world have been my teaching assistants who've helped me.

18:56 They've done so much for me. They're amazing with the kids and the kids get a much better deal with a teaching assistant. So I'd always choose to have a teaching assistant to get me wrong. And I'd just go over it and I'd, I'd understand that I need to get better managing, etcetera, etcetera. But all I mean is that when I didn't have a teaching assistant, at least I knew I didn't have the support, right? That's what I'm saying. Like at least I could kind of get used to that and I could try and put things in place to help. And I guess this is where this person's coming from. The first thing I'd say is this, without a teaching assistant, the children get less. That is the end of it. Like don't, don't be, don't be like put into this false sense of like, well, Dylan said he preferred it without teaching assistant. Of course. No, I'm talking about like, it's my strengths and my weaknesses. I'd always, always pick to have that support in the class. So my first bit of advice is something I just want everyone out there to understand who's maybe thinking God I've got a full class mixed ability, no support whatsoever. It is literally impossible to support every single child in that situation and it is not down to you personally. No, it makes sense because I've always why would TA exist? I know it sounds silly, but like of course of course TAS bring value to the classroom Exactly.

20:01 So without them, by definition, if you compare your class to, you know, you having no TA versus you having ATA, it's not your. You cannot physically reach the same bar. No, it's, it's impossible. And this is when people, lovely people like this who send this question and they say I'm feeling like I'm I can't support the children. What do I do? I'm with you. I felt like that consistent in my career and the only way I could ever get rid of that was to accept and understand that I could not support all of those children all the time. My lesson, it's horrible. It's I, I talked about this a million times before we left the, the profession that that was the biggest thing actually driving me out. You can't say that, Dylan. You can't say that you have to at least pretend that you are doing the same amount as if you had five TAS in your classroom when it's just you. You have to.

20:46 It's rubbish, it's rubbish. Huge class sizes, more need than ever. It's impossible. Like like they say in this question, six hands up at once. Mixed ability class. I can't support everyone. No, you can't. I remember I had a class and I had five children had autism diagnosis in my class, OK. And I, I've talked about this a lot in terms of autism, autism, it's, it's very different per child and the needs of the child is, is different each time, etcetera. And I had a child who didn't like loud, loud noises. I had a child who couldn't control themselves in terms of their, you know, their, they've got to allow steam and they, they just got overwhelmed and excited and stemmed and, and did sounds and noises instantly. Those two very incompatible. Yeah. Instantly.

21:27 Like I could, I couldn't, I'd like it was just incompatible like off the bat. Yeah, right. So I had to just do the best I could. I had another child who just struggled socially. I had another child who had autism but really didn't need much change at all in the classroom, had different, different needs, etcetera, maybe more social anxiety, etcetera, like that. And then I had a child join my classroom who didn't speak any English. I remember this. And they joined me halfway through the year and again, come in. I want to help every child single child like. This is life. This is what happens. But we cannot pretend that in that situation, with no additional help. I've now got a child in my class who does not speak English. How do How do I do? If I didn't sit with this child and help them, they would do nothing which meant I couldn't be with 32 other children, never mind the bulk of the class who maybe don't have an additional need who also never were getting my one to one time in the class.

22:19 So my point here is just I wasn't a bad teacher because of it. I was a human being living in the physical constraints of this world. Like I physically couldn't do it and that's what I want to get across to them. Like do what you can but but accept that you can't do everything. And if SLT are down your throat about it, tell them to get to get get lost. Basically. What do you want me to do so we can go into some actual tips in a minute? But does that make sense? No, definitely. I think, I think the context of that is genuinely really important because half the teachers, I think listening would just feel like they're a failure because they can't do all those things. No, no, not because it's not your, it's actually not your fault remotely. So in that, in that situation, that's, I've heard lots of advice. I want to kind of get your thoughts on this because I remember one time this really sticks in my head.

23:00 I, I, I think seating plans are really vital, by the way, in terms of like optimising where you sit children so you can at least try to help them the best you possibly can. You know, maybe, maybe sticking your six lowest stability children at the furthest possible points on the backs, backs of each table. It's maybe not that optimised because it's harder to get to them. You know, they're going to need more support for sure, little things like that. But I remember having a conversation with someone once and we were talking about when you don't have ATA, do you? Let's say you have, I'll just take the classic like 6. You've got your six lowest stability children, right? Or the children that have the most need, maybe including your, the child that you know, doesn't speak the language. Do you sit them on one table? Do you put them together? And the argument for that was they said, yeah, do that because then when everyone gets started on the task, you can go over that table, you can help all six at once. And then someone said that's not good because when you're not there, they've got no one around and there's no peer support in in any way because they're all equally liability. They just can't help each other.

23:48 I was like, OK, that's interesting. And then that same person said to me, what you should do is kind of dot them around the classroom and pair them up with children who are really, really like independent and canned who have fantastic peer supports, essentially. Like those kids that are just naturally teachers, you know, they really like helping just sit them with those children in pairs. So they've always got someone right next to them. And then but then the other person said, yeah, but then you've got to help them individually when you go around. And someone said it then hinders the the other child who was, you know, maybe working at that higher ability because they're now they're now being spending a lot of their time helping other child and they're not maximising their well. You just have the conversation. Hypothetically, but but at that point I was like, OK, what do I do? Then I was like, I don't know what, what's the optimum then like do you, do you have a, is it down to preference at that point?

24:30 What did you do? Both all the time. Just be malleable. Just be malleable and, and respond to your your strengths as well. What I always say to people is there are certain tasks that really lend themselves to having a support table. Yeah, there are certain parts of my lesson. I thought actually at this point, I, I physically need to be with these children to explain this tricky concept myself and be in control of what they're doing. But also I would say if you, you know, let's say you, we just take this idea of six children in the class being on your support table. Always in my experience, there were one or two children who were who needed far more support than anyone even within then six. Do you know what? I would often have children spread out who I think could handle it. And I think you, you, you need some support, but that support can come from your peers. But again, like you said, it's a balancing act because that you can always think of every single year, I can think of three or four children in my classes who were, who you might go to for that role and say, wow, you're incredibly independent. You're very intelligent.

25:27 The ability to explain and articulate is actually going to help you embed things and make you think further. And the ability to explain something in simple terms is actually a good skill for you. So maybe you could have someone who needs some support next to you. That's fine. But six weeks down the line, that becomes boring you, you and and then a nuisance. Yeah, and and it does become a nuisance. And actually, do you know what? Sometimes I wanted my brightest brains in the lesson on the same table to push each other and, and for me to go and work with them, for me to push them. Because I've said this a million times before. Of course there is a line where there's a certain level I want everyone to get to as a bare minimum because I want them to function like read, you know, do maths, right. So I understand why you then those children get more support because they need to get to that line.

26:08 But, but overall, for all progress is progress in my opinion, and I never wanted to detriment the progress of children just because they were further ahead, because they were further ahead and it meant that when I sat in a people progress meeting, they didn't have to worry about that name. Oh, they're so far comfortable. That's brilliant. I I really was passionate about actually making all of my children grow in different ways academically, etcetera, even if they were already quite, quite good at it. So my, my, my point here is we've with the lack of teaching assistant and lack of support, what was really like unleashed my ability to teach was knowing that I'm not going to hit every box all of the time. Because that what then allowed me to do was have moments where, OK, those four kids today aren't going to do as much. And I need to accept that because it means that I can then go and support these four children who otherwise would never get it.

27:01 And those four children could be whatever label you think they could be. The children who don't do anything if you leave them alone, say, well, OK, well, I do have to sometimes leave them alone because otherwise it is me giving a speech, speech to 33 kids and then working with the same 4 kids every single day. 100% of the time. You, yeah, you have to accept that there are going to be a group of children in an individual lesson who don't get the full support they might need because you physically can't give it to everyone. So you're going to just spread things around, have some lessons where you do do that and you spread them out. And then you do mixed ability seating. Have some lessons where actually you're going to have people at the front that you work with. Have some lessons where you plan something, maybe even a little bit separate that's relatively easy for the children to get on with and still do something, but you're going to go and really push your higher children. You might have mixed ability in terms of your middle E children and your top children.

27:47 You might mix them up, be completely malleable, and me understanding that I physically cannot give every child 100% of what they need all the time and it's not my fault, allowed me to do that more and I think that I became a better practitioner for it. Yeah, definitely. I think that being malleable thing is really is a huge key to success there. I think one thing I did, and this was a long ago, because I had, I didn't have mixed ability sets for the last few years of my career. When I did have mixed ability set, I had two seating plans and then the kids knew them both. So they didn't take them long to learn. I just had seating plan 1, seating plan 2 because I just in some situations wanted a very specific seating plan where I had my 6 kids, they just take the kids at the front with me. And other times where I just didn't want them there all the time and, and I wanted the mix and I was like, I just have two seating plans and the kids can just go into those different ones.

28:30 So that kind of goes in line with what you're saying, I guess. I think you probably took it the step even further in terms of like complete malleability. It might not even be just two seating plants. It's actually today I want you to be here and here and here. And it's different yesterday, which is different to the day before, but I think. It's pros and cons to both. I like your way like it's it's quick for the kids, they know where they're at. It solves a problem. My I remember my job share always used to comment and joke that every time they came in every week the kids were in a different place and it was because of that. Tables have moved. Yeah, it would just be like, you know what, Actually right now this is the most optimal thing. You, you, you swap, swap, swap. Let's go, go, go, let's do it. And, and yeah, it just, for me, it worked. It's malleability and understanding. You can't do everything. It's not your fault.

29:11 And I know it makes you feel like crap because it made me feel like crap, but I just, I had to almost suppress that. Yeah, because you get drummed into you, don't you, that not a single minute can be wasted for any kid ever. And and that really gets you down when a child has has sat there with her hand up for three minutes because you're working with another child and there's three other children with her hands up. And one of the things in that situation you've got to do, rather than panicking and thinking, oh, I'll get to you in a minute. I'll get to a minute, is try and encourage a bit of independence. Independence as well. Remember that the bar can be a bit lower. You don't have to reach this crazy unattainable bar and just think yourself, what could they work on? OK, they're struggling with that work right now, but I literally can't be in four places at once. So what can we do? They either do absolutely nothing or I try to get them to work on any, any other skill. OK, ask your partner. Can someone on your table help you? Can you have another go at that question? Can you leave that one and come back to it later? Can you have a go at this other task like just other little things up your sleeve where you think they're going to be doing something?

30:00 It's not the optimal thing because I really wanted them to do that question too, but they can't do it. So just accept that they can't do it. They can't do it until you're there. So what else can they do in that moment until you get there, You know, just having those little things, I think. Absolutely. I think that's hopefully answered your question in a way we can't fix the system. This is my overall point. You cannot fix the broken system, but what you can do is work with what you've got and I think that's the best way to do it. Let's go on to another question. What is your opinion on SCN One to ones or TA? Is teaching assistants in Sen classrooms in a mainstream setting receiving the same pay as Classroom Tasmania? Let's qualify this because I can immediately think well why wouldn't they get the same? This is interesting. I value all Tasmania and believe they all deserve higher pay. However, I know many SENTAS who are at risk of being bitten or hit and who frequently carry out nappy changes and other additional tasks that wouldn't usually be required in a standard teaching assistant role. First thing very quickly, before I throw over to you, I'm going to, I'm going to say I, I get this and I get the trepidation about talking about stuff because I think the roles of teaching assistants have have evolved so much. It's hard to actually say the words standard TA role. It doesn't happen too often.

31:10 I teach an assistant who would be the ones who had to go and clear up the sick, you know, like so. So I'm just going to make that clear right now. However, I do think there's a distinction when you see what kind of honestly at points danger teaching assistants in Sen schools with in in those situations who genuinely do get bit and scratched hair pulled. It is different. I think that's a good point and it is worth thinking about. The extremities really like, you know, Tasmania that work in special needs schools where they are potentially being bitten is obviously obviously quite different to working in a Main Street school, even if you are like clean up a bit sick every now and then. It's just, it's there that you can compare them. And I think there's, there's two, there's two ways to look at it really.

31:52 Like should, should they be paid more like, well, I think you could argue yes, because realistically they are like it, it is. It's hard. It's so hard because I'm trying to not say the right thing. I don't want to say it's a tougher job. Every job's tough. But but but your tougher job is this. I know, but like you said, trepidation. I'm being really careful with the way I word this, but OK. If I had the choice of being ATA where I don't get bitten, there's less risk of me getting bitten and punched versus 1 where I could do get a bit. Obviously, I'm going to pick that one if they're the same pay. Yeah. Like we do kind of need to incentivize. We do need TA's to work in schools where it is more physically challenging. You're more at risk. Well, this question is about in mainstream schools still like having that setting because there's a lot more inclusion now, inclusivity, etcetera. It's quite often to have that one to 1 SEND with children who maybe are at risk.

32:38 Yeah, but but you're right, like just just as a generic point, SEND schools also do exist. And my sister used to work in one. She come home with scratches on her face. Yeah. You know, it was a thing. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. But like, yeah, so it's interesting point here would be in a mainstream school, you're 1 to one with a child who has these tendencies perhaps and puts you in danger compared to in the same school, just a, you know, a regular mainstream teaching assistant. Should there be a discrepancy in pay? I can see why that's a tricky question, but my gut instinct is there should be like a allocation bonus I think if you're at personal risk. In essence, I agree. Like I think from from every like moral standpoint, if we take a high ground, we look at that, I think, yeah, we should be incentivizing people with a bit more because it is just a riskier job.

33:20 But here's the problem with reality is the reason I don't think it happens is because you've just think of business in general, supply and demand. Someone always does the job. But if, if no one was applying for the job, then they don't, they'd have to pay up. So I think the reason it's not going up is simply because there's, there's someone, someone is fulfilling that role. I don't think it's fair. I think they're getting taken advantage of. But I think people, the schools and the, the system itself is looking at being like, ah, someone will do it. So. You change your tuner striking. What do you mean? Should strike them, should not do it. Should refuse your refuse work. Well, I think in that issue I think Tasmania have got the absolute worst deal ever. I think they should absolutely be. There should be. String action for them. Definitely. I feel horrible for Tasmania. We were, we were looking the other day, weren't we? We were looking on our local. Yeah, we were. It's called Kent Teach.

34:01 We're in Kent and it's where all the job adverts go up. And I just remember your reaction because I kind of had an idea because again, I'm, I do a lot of the podcast work, as you know, I talk, I talk to you guys. It's me on the other end. Hayden's just, yeah, right. We looked at the, the pay for a teaching assistant role. Yeah. And it's just disgusting. Yeah, it was done here. It's, it's insane. And, and the classic thing is £24,000 a year and you looked at that and you went, oh, it's quite. It's not bad that's gone up. It's all right. Yeah, yeah, that's just, that's just taking into account full time equivalent FTA. Yeah. So you know, realistically you're getting about 1200 LB, 1300 LB before tax a month to be a teacher. It was 15.6 grand and I the reason I remember that so well is because I remember thinking 8 or 9 years ago, I, I thought that's what Tasmania were getting paid then because I think, I think maybe I met a HLTA and like the top bracket and I was like, what is the hell?

34:48 Am I getting paid 15 grand for this crazy job they're doing? And the fact that like 9 years later, I saw that I was gobsmacked. I was gobsmacked at that. There's been a lot of outcry for yeah, you know, there's been a lot for teachers and people pushing for higher pay and more funding in schools. But yeah, poor TA, they get left behind and and they do such a huge role. They're working full time in a school. And like you said, if you're working full time in a school and you're an SEM 1:00 to 1:00 and you're potentially getting hit and and bitten and all sorts of abuse thrown at you, But and you're there to support that child and you've got to keep a level head. That's a really, really tough vital job. Essential for that child, essential for the classroom, essential for the school that that child has that one to one. Otherwise, like what? What's going to happen if not and we go, yeah, yeah, we'll give you, yeah, we'll give you an unlivable amount of money.

35:30 Yeah, sorry. Yeah, no. So I think, you know, the biggest point there that I really want to stress on. I'm sure we can sit there and compare should should they get more if they get bitten? Is there a bit? Is there a bike quota you get more per bike? Like we could sit there and compare TA's that don't get bitten with tears that do. But realistically, the big point there was I value all TA's and believe they all deserve higher pay. That's that's the probably the bit we should be like, yes, that is so much more important than anything. Do do you think you got to the point where because as a teacher you would genuinely accept less of a pay rise if it meant teaching assistants got an actual bump? Because because it's this is where I get kind of frustrated about the whole conversation because if you say no to that, you're seen as selfish. Don't care about teaching assistants. Like no, but I care about everyone. Like I hate how it's seen as teachers greediness means Tasmania get and that's that's the narrative and I want to just get away from it.

36:22 It's like, yeah, I think TA should get a massive pay rise. When I do a reel and we release something about teachers needing a pay rise, the amount of people who are like, what about Tasmania? Do you not care about the teaching assistants because they see a minute reel and assume everything They know everything about us. What about them? So well, I'm not talking about them. I I also think they should get a pay rise and I think it should be more significant. It's a separate reel for that. It's a separate one, yeah. Then what about animal rights? I'm not talk about this. And it winds me up because what, what winds were even more is when someone assumes something I don't think or we don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Teaching assistants deserve a huge pay rise. They've been stagnated. They've been forgotten. And you know why? Because no one cares if they exist or not at the top.

37:04 But it's actually probably going to be more beneficial for the people at the top. Balancing the budgets, funding things that can't be funded anymore if we get rid of them completely. They're the low hanging fruit. They're the first people to go. You're not even saving that much money because they're on such. Little I know, that's the irony. Just keep them then, like they're doing. They're exploited so much and they're still the first people to go. It's just insane. If you just look at where like things can be cut, it's not teaching assistants, is it? Like they're the last things I'm thinking to get rid of. It's insane. Yeah, it's madness. And back to your question about whether I would forego like a pay rise for teachers in favour of TAS, The the wider thing to me there is I would be annoyed at the system again, like, why are you pitting US against each other? Yeah, that would be my bigger thing. I almost don't even want to answer that question. Like point in that situation, I all I'd be arguing for is stopping us against each other.

37:53 This is ridiculous. That's ridiculous. It shouldn't be one or the other. I'm not even getting involved. You know what I mean? I would just say no to the whole thing. Also no. Yeah. You know, if it really came down to it, genuinely, I would, I would say right. TA's need, they need something. They need something. We've been fighting, we've had a couple of very, very small wind. I'm not talking much winds here. We've at least had something. Whereas TA, they've had absolutely nothing. So I probably would be like, right, let's fight for them this time. This is a wider point for me though, I'm getting better here, going outside of the world of education. I find it so frustrating and and so a a sad indictment on society in general that there are jobs that exist that you can work full time and still not be able to afford to live.

38:34 We're talking about those kind of jobs like the recently the minimum wage is going up to £12.50 in the budget it was announced. And I just look at if you work full time on that wage in the area where we live, you will have not enough money to survive because rents are too high, cost of living is too high. You've got your bills to pay for, you've got your food to pay for, you've got your transport to pay for. You're left with nothing. Like it's, it's absolutely insane that it exists where the amount that you're allowed to pay someone for doing a full time job doesn't provide them with the means to live. It's it's like what this is just, this is just extra steps towards, I'm not going to say slavery because it's obviously not, but it's just trapping people in that hole.

39:15 It's insane to me. And I think teaching assistants, that's one of them where I think it's such pitiful pay that the only way you can sustain yourself really on a teaching assistants wage is hoping that you've almost had a career beforehand that's kind of paved its way for you and you can survive it better. You haven't got mortgage rates going through your eyes or you really struggle. You really, really struggle and, and most teaching assistants I've met are absolute Saints, the best people in the world who want to do the best for the kids. And it's just sad, isn't it, that we're in a situation where it's like, yeah, well, tough. Yeah, we just take advantage of people who want the hours. They the only attraction of being a TA is certainly not the loyalty because they're the 1st that you said the 1st to get binned. It's not the pay. The only attraction of being a TA, and we've seen this a lot is you get to work very specifically in school hours. And we get a lot of people, it's particularly mums I find who have got young kids and are going to, the kids are going to school and they just want to work in at the time their kids are in school.

40:07 And TA is obviously the perfect role for that. And we have capital by we, I mean the system have capitalised off of that to the absolute maximum in terms of we've given, we've taken away everything else they can possibly. Have other than the perk of, well, you get to pick up your kids from school, you can work in school hours like that is that is it now there's nothing left. There's nothing more you can strip from Tasmania other than getting rid of them, which is where we're at. And even that's being stripped because TA is more and more being expected to plan to mark after school. So, well, I was, I was able to take my kids from school, but I got these books to mark now because I covered, yeah, what are we doing? I cover every day, by the way. Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I overtime needs to be paid. They don't have directed time if you're expecting your teaching assistant to mark after covering. And firstly, you should not be expecting them to do any work outside of the contract.

40:49 It's a different kind of contract. Yeah, if you do, you bloody pay them for doing it and never expect it and they choose to do it or not. If they need to go when the contract ends, get out that door. I'll never resent a teaching assistant leaving. I used to kick mine out the door. She'd come round and say bye. Physically, it's like 3:45 and I was like, what you've been doing we've been doing for 20 minutes. So I just had to do this. Go home. Yeah, you're a lovely, lovely person, but you are not paid enough to do this consistently. Go home. Get out my site. Yeah, come in early tomorrow, buddy. Get it done, all right? Just go home. Do it. Oh. Goodness me madness. But yeah, TA feel sorry for them. OK. And let's wrap it up there. We've got plenty more questions on the way next week for another QA. Join the WhatsApp. We're going to be harvesting more questions in the future. Hayden has specifically asked me not to go to him and say, is there anything to say at the end? So, Hayden, anything to say before we wrap up? Make sure to wear your school shoes to work and not your trainers.

41:42 See you next time, bye.