Ep 128: Unpicking The School's Bill: Branded Uniform Crackdown, Fairer Teacher Pay & Fewer Academy Freedoms

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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to another episode of Teach the

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Repeat.
My name is.

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Dylan, and my name is Hayden.
And this week we're going to be

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taking a look at the Children's
well-being and Schools Bill,

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discussing whether the cap on
branded uniforms is a good

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thing.
We'll talk about the pros and

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cons of academies being forced
to use national pay scales.

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And diving into exactly which
freedoms that some Academy

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schools and free schools enjoy
might be stripped back as a

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result of this bill passing the
Children's well-being and

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Schools Bill.
It's a huge, huge shake up of

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the English education system,
probably the biggest in over a

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decade.
I think back to when the

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Conservatives came into power in
the coalition and there's a

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whole revamp in the new
curriculum.

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We've got the new curriculum on
the horizon again.

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So that's going to be something
in the next few years that's

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implemented.
But this bill is currently

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making its way through the
procedure to become law.

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So it's passed in the Commons.
It won a big majority, and we're

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going to talk today about what
it actually will involve for

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schools and for parents and for
children.

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But we're not going to cover
everything.

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So there were people listening
to this thinking, oh, yeah, home

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education was a big part of
this.

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And there was almost, it seemed
like a crackdown on home

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education.
And that's something you're

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interested?
In home education, I think that

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needs this whole episode,
doesn't it needs a whole episode

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to itself.
I'm I'm really want to talk

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through the pros and cons, my
own opinions, your opinions and

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and maybe even get a few of your
opinions as well on that.

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Yeah, absolutely.
So we're going to dive into, I

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think 3 main prongs that we
mentioned before about uniform.

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We're going to talk about pay
and Academy freedoms.

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They're, they're big things that
are coming out.

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Yes.
So we're going to talk about

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what the changes might have in
terms of what the impact they're

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going to have on the children's
schools, but also maybe what

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people are arguing for and
against and really dive into

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whether we think this is going
to be useful or a force for good

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in education or not.
So it's not, this is the thing I

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want to get through to people.
I don't think you'll realise how

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much of A shake up this is going
to be because especially when we

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talk about maintained schools
and academies and the freedoms

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that academies and free schools
have against the maintained

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school, the local authority, it
feels as if that's going to

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change a lot.
And I think most schools at this

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point now are actually
academies.

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So it's going to affect the
majority of teachers in the long

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run.
So I'm really looking forward to

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this.
I think what we should do is

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just break it up and we should
start with uniform costs.

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Something I know very, very
closely, the amount of times

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outside of this podcast, I've
been speaking to Dylan about

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uniforms over the years, you've
had a very consistent opinion of

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this, opinions rather on whether
children should be required to

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wear branded uniforms or not.
And that's basically what this

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bill's talking about, right?
Branded uniforms versus non

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branded uniforms being obviously
a lot cheaper.

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Yeah, and it's something I've
got strong opinions on.

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And what kind of annoys me a
little bit is when people will

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come back and say of course we
should have school uniforms.

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What do you mean?
It means it's an equaliser for.

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I'm not saying that.
Yeah, I, I, I do not disagree of

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uniform.
I actually quite like a uniform

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because of all the reasons
people say like it just

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equalises everyone.
It's not about what flashy thing

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you've got or you spend In
America you can wear your own

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clothes and I can see how that
would just maximise the

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disparity that was already there
in terms of class and wealth

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etc.
I think uniforms are a good

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thing.
I find it absolutely insane when

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it becomes you've got to buy
this exact branded piece of kit

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and it costs so much money, so
much more than if you didn't get

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it branded or just went up to
Tesco or just went up to Asda

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and got it for a couple of quid.
You have to wear this to be part

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of our school and that's the
rule done.

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I hate it.
Yeah, especially.

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Especially when it basically
does the exact same thing that

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you were just talking about,
which is what I was thinking

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about.
You were saying, oh, you know,

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you get the disparity between
children when they're allowed to

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wear their own clothes, for
example, like non uniforms,

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whatever you got, you got the
kids in all their flashy stuff.

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And the ones that aren't, it's
like, yeah, cool.

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So why are we doing that with
uniform then?

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Why are we saying, Oh yeah, in
some schools, you know, we put

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these on a pedestal.
They have to spend £300 on their

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on their uniform.
But these other schools, they

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don't have to do that.
Like it.

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It doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah, I definitely, that's less

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of a problem if you're
separating schools out because

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you don't spend your time with
them.

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But I understand what you mean
there.

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But for me, I, I, I see it a
lot, a lot in terms of if we go

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into a school where there's lots
of branded items needed, I think

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even within that school, it, it,
what it will do is it will tend

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to highlight again, those who
maybe have hand me downs, those

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who just can't afford it.
Oh, it doesn't fit very well

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because it's £80 for a blazer.
So you just have to wear this

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blazer kid because you've got
another year left.

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And I can't afford to do that.
Whereas someone else would be

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afford to constantly get brand
new uniform every year.

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So I think it kind of, it takes
away from that slightly when

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you're putting such a huge
amount of money on a uniform.

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And the thing that I
fundamentally disagree with is

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that it takes something, this
idea of state education that's

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free and should and is given to
everyone and there's a right for

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the children.
It takes that and it just

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muddies it a bit.
It just means that poorer

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families might have to, that
month when they get in a

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uniform, go without a meal.
Yeah, yeah, it makes complete

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sense.
So what exactly is this bill

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proposing then?
So at the minute, there's a

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there's a disparity between
primary schools and secondary

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schools with this for sure,
because we're talking about

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branded UU, maybe with the
school's logo on something that

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you couldn't pick up from
anywhere.

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You have to maybe go to a
specific school shop or you have

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to buy it through the school
itself, right?

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So something where it's
controlled, where you're getting

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it from and usually hikes the
prices up because of it.

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So at the minute, I think it was
about 20 to 25% of primary

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schools have to have at least
five branded items and it jumped

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to something crazy like in the
70s.

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Seventy odd percent of secondary
schools need at least five

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branded items as well.
And if we're thinking about what

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that cost might be, it's for
some families, we've got the

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stat here, they spend up to £400
per child on uniform.

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And if we just think about the
impact that will have, like in

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the cost of living crisis for
currently here, when you, your

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school is just your local school
down the road, which you don't

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have control over, whether they
decide to go down the branded

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uniform route or not, you get
your kids going to that school,

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nice 10 by the way, you need to
spend £400 on uniform.

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Yeah, that's going to have such
a detrimental affair.

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For one of your kids.
Exactly on that family, when

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realistic, you could still have
a uniform that's a plain white

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top, plain white shirt, maybe
even a plain black blazer, and

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almost get all of the good parts
of why uniform should be there,

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but at a fraction of the cost.
So the school's bell, it's going

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to cap it.
It's going to cap the number of

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branded items a school is
allowed to say you buy.

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It's going to cap it at three.
Yeah.

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So it might it's it's 3 for
primary school and I think it's

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3 + a tie for a for a secondary.
School, would you go further?

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Would you, if you were in
charge?

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Would you be like, there's no
cap?

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It's just not, it's yeah, I just
want to know, like, do you think

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that?
Yeah.

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Do you think a cap of three is a
fair middle ground or do you

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think it should just straight up
B schools cannot require branded

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stuff?
I, I I would go that far.

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I would go as far as possible
with this in terms of still

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being a uniform, but as as much
freedom as possible for families

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to save money.
It's just crazy to me.

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So what do you say to the
critics then?

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Because obviously, obviously you
kind of jumped over it and

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dismissed it a bit.
But people say, a lot of people

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say this to be fair, that having
uniform, a branded uniform does

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give that sense of community.
It allows people to know this is

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where we belong.
You know, we've all, we all have

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this brand together.
It's instantly recognisable.

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I'm part of this community even
when I'm not in the school

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because I've got my logo.
Yeah.

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I mean, I just, I understand it.
I don't.

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I don't necessarily disagree.
That's what you get, but you

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just weigh up the pros with the
cons.

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I don't like the arguments where
someone says, well, that's true

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what you just said, this gives
us my identity there for

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everything else is just trumped.
No, of course it can give you

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your identity.
Of course it can make you feel

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part of a group, but it also
means that families are £400

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worth off every year.
Yeah.

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So you have to balance out,
okay, One means that that

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happens, the other means that
this happens and you have to

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come to a balance.
The thing just going back

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quickly to what we said about
would I go even further, the

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three cap thing is good, but
we're talking about this is

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looking to say families £50 per
child annually.

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Yeah.
So bringing a three cap, a cap

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of three items is going to take
it from 400 lbs to 350.

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Pounds.
Yeah, look.

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Good, still good.
I'm not going to sit here and

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say it's a bad thing.
It's obviously still a good

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thing.
Step in the right, step in the

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right direction.
But like, OK, cool.

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Still £350 but OK, I've got a
few meals there maybe for the

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poorest of families I'm talking
about.

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But yeah, I mean, thinking
about, I'm part of a of a group

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now and I think a uniform, I
think you can achieve that

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without having a gryphon with
Lorem Ipsum on your chest like I

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think you can.
You can still feel part of a

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community.
You can still instil that idea

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of this is the school community
all part of the same school?

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We're all wearing green jumpers.
We're all still wearing the same

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green jumpers.
Oh, it might have a slightly

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different colour, colour, sorry,
at the top and a slightly

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different design.
So.

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I mean, we both went to a school
that had, we did branded school.

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We both went to a school, that's
for sure.

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But we both went to the same
school that had a secondary

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school for, for clarity, that
had a branded blazer and a

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branded tie.
I think that was all that was

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branded, to be fair, at our
school.

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Did it make you feel anything?
Did you feel more part of the

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community as a kid growing or
would you not care?

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I'm not gonna lie to you when
when you put the blazer on and

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it's got the school badge on it.
Yeah, it was a bore, wasn't it?

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For us?
Like a golden bore and we had a

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black blaze and the tie was the
same for everyone.

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You did feel part of the
community.

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It, it did give you that leg up
and it did help you more quickly

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establish that community feel.
And I've got, I've got I, I

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don't actually have anything
against a school logo.

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I think school logo is a lovely,
I think it adds to it.

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The issue does just come when
we've got to the point now in

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our society where it costs so
much money to achieve this.

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That's why I don't mind the cap.
The The thing is as well, there

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are just other solutions like
you can have that.

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Do you know what a school could
do?

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They could say, yeah, just buy
your blazer from anywhere and we

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provide you and it the cheapest
chips, little iron on thing.

225
00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:32,280
And you, everyone here's the
guide.

226
00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:33,880
You put it on the pocket, you
iron it on.

227
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,480
Like there, there's there's
surely ways around this where

228
00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,240
it's not just, yeah, you'd have
to spend hundreds of pounds on

229
00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,320
these things from these specific
shops that we have deals with or

230
00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,200
not.
Like I bet we can.

231
00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,280
I'm sure we can think of a way
to foster identity that doesn't

232
00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,160
specifically involve buying
specific items that cost a

233
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:52,440
certain amount of money.
Do you know what I mean?

234
00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:53,920
Like, come on.
I think the perfect example of

235
00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:55,680
that.
Is over the last few years,

236
00:09:55,680 --> 00:09:57,800
especially in academies and
stories we've heard from people

237
00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:02,000
and literally schools we know of
have moved from that more

238
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,640
generic uniform.
So like maybe you get a blue

239
00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:05,800
jumper.
Can you get a blue jumper,

240
00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:07,880
please?
Call a white polo shirt, grey

241
00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:09,200
trousers.
Let's just say that's what

242
00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,760
they're gone for, right?
And black shoes, OK, that's,

243
00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,960
that's the uniform.
Whether you get it from George

244
00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,680
M&S school shop, whatever, you
just get that, that's fine.

245
00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:20,560
That's no problem.
Move to a much more stringent

246
00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,280
like, you know, we wear Blazers
now, we wear ties now and

247
00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,880
there's a cap option as well.
You can get very much moving

248
00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:27,440
towards that private school kind
of feel.

249
00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,400
But then the rules were brought
in that you've got to now wear

250
00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,160
this and you can only buy it
through our approved supplier

251
00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,280
and you can only get it through
US and it's going to cost you

252
00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,160
double the amount.
That's that's school making that

253
00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:40,400
choice to do that.
Yeah.

254
00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,600
Didn't suddenly become twice as
good in terms of their

255
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:43,280
behaviour.
No.

256
00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,440
Didn't suddenly become twice as
inclusive, didn't suddenly feel

257
00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,000
amazing to be around because of
that decision with the uniform.

258
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,560
But what it did do was it meant
that families were out of pocket

259
00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:53,760
more.
Yeah, that's the problem is that

260
00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,000
I I have this little graph in my
head.

261
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,680
I'm like, could it have made a
slight positive impact to

262
00:10:57,680 --> 00:10:59,880
something?
I'm I'm sure it I'm sure it did

263
00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:02,080
you know that's the way you felt
maybe a bit of a sense of

264
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:03,600
identity.
I'm sure it did.

265
00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:05,560
But that that movement is really
small for me.

266
00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:07,920
It's like a little bars, it's a
bit tiny and, and like you said,

267
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,960
the negative part of the cons in
terms of the cost is just too

268
00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,440
big to make me be able to
justify actually doing that in

269
00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:16,760
the 1st place.
There's just something about the

270
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,720
idea of even just one person in
that school, one parent, one

271
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,120
family, whatever, just going
like really like getting worried

272
00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:24,640
about the fact they've got to do
this now, they've got to spend

273
00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:26,080
£400.
They didn't have to last year

274
00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,040
when they were signed up to this
school and, and going to the

275
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,600
school and being like, oh, can
we, can we just not though, can

276
00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:32,880
we use the uniform?
We've actually just bought

277
00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:34,440
uniform last year and it's all
still good to go.

278
00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,240
And they go, no, no, you have to
use this stuff now.

279
00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,480
But imagine even if the school
said yes, I was like, Oh yeah,

280
00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,520
of course no, we do care because
schools are full of people who

281
00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,520
care at the end of the day.
Yeah, of course you can.

282
00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:43,680
That kids going to stick out
like a.

283
00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:44,880
Software.
Yeah, Now you're the only kid

284
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:46,520
that's.
Not wearing it so great, you've

285
00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:47,840
managed to do that, but look
what you've created.

286
00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:49,920
OK, well, another more critics
have said.

287
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,720
Do you know what, though?
We can easily also foster

288
00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:57,240
environments in schools and
systems of hand me downs where

289
00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,360
it's like, you know what?
People finish school all the

290
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,000
time or people leave school in
different year groups.

291
00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:02,760
They donate their uniform back
to school.

292
00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,640
It gets washed up properly and
then it gets sold off as a for a

293
00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:07,480
fraction of the price.
Or it gets given out even for

294
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,160
free sometimes to the to the
families that are struggling and

295
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:11,520
and need that help.
Like what do you think about?

296
00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,200
That I think that's great.
I think that's exactly what you

297
00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:13,840
should be doing.
Yeah.

298
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:15,200
Again, I'm not going to sit
here.

299
00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,440
I think it's really disingenuous
when people sit down and just

300
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:18,960
completely dismiss the other
idea.

301
00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:20,880
I understand it.
And if we're in a situation

302
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,040
where branded uniforms are
staying, it seems like we are.

303
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:24,280
Yeah, It's going to cap at
three.

304
00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,240
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely
have to have the option and

305
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:27,560
that's something that every
school should have.

306
00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:30,960
And but I just, I just feel with
uniform and with it being

307
00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:35,840
branded uniform in particular, I
think we sometimes we're just

308
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,360
jumping the gun a bit and we're
thinking, oh, it will have a

309
00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,320
positive impact.
Like almost everything we do in

310
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,440
education, it will have some
kind of positive impact because

311
00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,160
of this reason.
Therefore we just roll it out

312
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,200
and don't necessarily think
about the pros and cons.

313
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,600
Got a statistic here from parent
kind survey, 86% say branding

314
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,240
doesn't affect behaviour.
Parents are overwhelmingly,

315
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,000
overwhelmingly favour unbranded
options.

316
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,440
Of course they do, of course
they do because it's not because

317
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,440
they sit there and they think I
don't want my kid to have this

318
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,440
branded uniform.
They might think it's a great

319
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,440
idea.
They're just thinking about

320
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:05,400
cost.
Yeah, Do you know what?

321
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,400
In the same way there's a
teacher analogy here, in the

322
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,040
same, the way that I sit there
at 5:00 PM and think, yeah, it

323
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,520
would be lovely for me to write
a paragraph in every child's

324
00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,080
book for the next 4 hours.
It's not worth it though.

325
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:16,400
Exactly.
Would it have a positive impact?

326
00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,080
Yeah, probably a little bit,
tiny bit more than if I just did

327
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,480
a, you know, a couple of like a
word or something and moved on.

328
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,360
It's not worth it though.
It isn't worth the investment.

329
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:25,680
And that's what we need to get
across.

330
00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:28,840
Which head teacher from London
do you think has has has really

331
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,080
come out to defend Branded
Uniforms 30?

332
00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,800
Is it Catherine Berbelsingh by
any chance from Michaela?

333
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:35,320
Yeah, Michaela School.
Yeah.

334
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,000
Listen, I think she's got got
her points of view and this is

335
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,080
what she said about it.
So she she argues about branded

336
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,880
uniforms aiding safeguarding,
helping to maintain standards,

337
00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,320
support belonging, especially
inner City Schools.

338
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,800
Look of this, we've just talked
about how to a degree it can do

339
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:53,080
some of those shocks.
Sure.

340
00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,120
Can you do it in a different
way?

341
00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:58,280
Of course you can.
Let's ask all of the USA and,

342
00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,880
and all literally every place in
the world that is just as

343
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:03,560
successful as we are, that
doesn't even have uniform.

344
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,480
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
It can be done.

345
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,480
What are you talking about?
I won't go to USA for success in

346
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,240
terms of the education system.
Kind of kind of shot yourself in

347
00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:11,720
the foot there a little bit like
going for them.

348
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,960
All right, fine, fine.
But yeah, I want to read to you

349
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:16,840
what she said about about this
and having.

350
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,160
So this is her defending having
branded trousers.

351
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,040
Just just for context, very
quickly, I read somewhere that

352
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:26,560
there is a school out there that
was selling drama socks that the

353
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,480
children had to buy.
Yeah, they had to buy these

354
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:29,560
socks.
Because they do drama.

355
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,040
No shoes on.
Yeah, they have to do, yeah,

356
00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:35,680
they have to wear these exact
school branded socks for drama

357
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,960
and that was a rule 100%.
So this is the thing that is

358
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:40,040
happening.
It's not just something that's

359
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:41,240
made-up.
This happens, this is true.

360
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,160
So Catherine mentioned about
having trousers that are branded

361
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:45,920
and why it's important.
So my first thought straight

362
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,160
away is just do we need branded
trousers?

363
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,480
Yeah, but that is the last thing
on my list of the things that

364
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,200
maybe I'd accept to being.
Yeah, drama socks, bring them

365
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,240
back in.
But yeah, she talked about how

366
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,440
it's important to have certain
trousers because then they can't

367
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,720
be pulled down.
And I thought, okay, where's

368
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,840
this going?
But her point is you can.

369
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:11,000
She's mentioned how having that
means you can recognise easily

370
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,880
by a cleverly positioned logo on
the trousers so teachers can

371
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,160
hold high standards with the
kids, and it means that

372
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,360
vulnerable boys in the inner
city are more likely to feel as

373
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,360
if they belong to their school.
It also ensures girls are not

374
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,960
pressured into shortening their
skirts or tightening their

375
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,560
trousers.
So the point here being that

376
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:34,320
with a logo in the right place
on a pair of trousers apparently

377
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,880
makes it easier for teachers to
see which children in the inner

378
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,440
city might be lowering them,
therefore getting involved in

379
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,120
the wrong crew.
That just, I mean, firstly, it

380
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,440
reminds me of the old tie thing.
Whereas like if a tie is not a

381
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,920
certain length, you know, if it
didn't for us, it had to have

382
00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,440
some certain number of stripes
and then we knew it was long

383
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:52,640
enough.
It made me feel like that.

384
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:54,920
But surely trousers are a bit, a
little bit more obvious when

385
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:56,400
they're not really.
That's what pulled up.

386
00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:56,920
Is it not?
Yeah.

387
00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,760
I mean, like, do you need that?
Do you need that logo on that

388
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:01,920
trousers to know if someone's
got their boxers hanging?

389
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,640
Out.
Yeah, that seems a bit odd.

390
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,160
I don't know it just when when
again the option is call that

391
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,640
pair of trousers cost £35 and I
can get some from out of a £10.

392
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,880
Is it worth the cost on the
family for the school to say

393
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:16,240
it's important for them to do it
that way?

394
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,760
I don't, I just don't buy it.
I think you can have all of the

395
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,040
benefits that she talks about,
why uniform is good and a sense

396
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,760
of belonging.
I think you can have all of that

397
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,600
in a non branded uniform.
Yeah, definitely.

398
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,160
And the whole thing about
vulnerable boys in the inner

399
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,200
city are more likely to feel
like they belong to their

400
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,040
school.
I just don't even maybe it's

401
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:37,840
true.
But to me, that's like, it's so

402
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:39,720
it's so small.
That's such a small thing.

403
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,000
Like the fact it's branded, the
fact it's.

404
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,240
Yeah, that that being a true
statement, it feels like even

405
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:46,560
being written down, it's burnout
proportion.

406
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,440
It's like, how much really is is
the logo on their trousers?

407
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,200
Bear in mind they've got it on
their blazer probably already,

408
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,320
and other places.
How much really is?

409
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,000
Having their socks.
And that socks, yeah, having

410
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,600
that logo on their trousers,
making them feel like they're

411
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:00,840
part of a community that, come
on.

412
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,160
I feel like we're just maybe
like clutching at straws a

413
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,400
little bit there.
So do you think then, just

414
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,920
thinking about this as a whole
now, do you think that schools

415
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,960
can maintain an identity, a
feeling of belonging for their

416
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,119
whole family, let's call it the
teachers and the students,

417
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,720
whilst still reducing the
financial burdens and getting

418
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:20,480
rid of this branded uniform?
100% yeah.

419
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,160
And I think there are options
unfortunately that just aren't

420
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,280
exploding this like that, like
what I said, like ironing on a

421
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:25,960
thing.
There's probably other ways you

422
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,600
can say to, to, to schools or
the government at least can from

423
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,760
top down say, look, these are
the rules now.

424
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,240
This is why you are no longer
allowed to make your parents

425
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,280
spend 4 times as much on
uniform.

426
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,200
Even without saying you, you
can't use branded items.

427
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:40,160
I think that's one of the
options.

428
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,720
You could, the government could
just say the cap is 1 now if

429
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,520
you're a secondary school, you
can have a blazer.

430
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,920
That's it.
The rest has to not be branded

431
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,360
and just get over it because you
can still foster community even

432
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:50,360
with one branded.
It's great.

433
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:51,520
That's enough.
Do you know what I mean?

434
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:52,760
But so there's lots of options
there.

435
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:54,040
I feel like maybe haven't been
fully explored.

436
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:55,520
I think it's a step in the right
direction though.

437
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:56,760
For sure.
Absolutely.

438
00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,160
OK, so that's that's all about
uniform.

439
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,080
I don't know, just gets my
haircuts up every time when it

440
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:05,400
feels like it's a way to put a
paywall up on free education for

441
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,640
families who feel guilt guilted
into spending that money when

442
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:10,160
they should be spending that
money elsewhere.

443
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,960
So next one, let's talk about
this is huge as well, teacher

444
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,200
pay.
So this we're going to go into

445
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,800
from our Third Point, more about
Academy freedoms, etcetera on a

446
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,240
wider scale.
But I think this is such a big

447
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,480
point of the freedoms of
academies that I think it needs

448
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,560
its own kind of segment on chat.
So here what we're talking about

449
00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:34,800
is this school's bill will make
it a mandate that academies must

450
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,120
adhere to national pay scales
and conditions, with all

451
00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:42,800
teachers or staff working
towards being a teacher holding

452
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,680
that qualified teacher status.
Yeah, so two big things there

453
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:47,320
really isn't there.
And one of them I know is

454
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,120
something that we have both and
you particularly have

455
00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,360
passionately spoke about on this
podcast loads of times with

456
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:54,960
academies, with one of the
downsides of academies.

457
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:56,440
I'm not saying that all
academies are terrible, but a

458
00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,160
downside of the freedom of an
Academy is that staff do get

459
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,400
mugged off.
We have literally been there in

460
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,480
our own careers.
So the, the point here is we're

461
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:10,600
going to talk about an Academy
trust who have responded to this

462
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,040
annoyed, annoyed.
Do they have to follow the

463
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,680
national pay scale?
Because they literally, and they

464
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,280
literally do, if we've looked it
up, Unite Learning pay their

465
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,920
staff above the national pay
scales.

466
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,080
And this is often the argument
with the freedom comes

467
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:30,120
innovation comes the ability to
have control over your budget in

468
00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:32,760
a way where you can pay your
staff more.

469
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,840
Now, I just want to make this
really clear as to why my

470
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,200
initial thought to that is
always a bit like, oh, I'm not

471
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:39,720
sure.
We talked about it ourselves.

472
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,960
Hayden, you're absolutely right.
There are academies out there

473
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,720
who, since the introduction of
academies and the freedoms,

474
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,520
didn't go in the direction of,
OK, let's pay our staff more

475
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:50,960
because we don't have to follow
this anymore.

476
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,840
They went in the direction of,
oh, OK, we can get away with

477
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,320
paying our staff less.
And I've heard of that a lot

478
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:57,880
more from our conversations,
obviously.

479
00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:59,480
Do you know what?
That's probably more likely that

480
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,040
you're going to hear that more
because it's the negative thing

481
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:02,240
where we like to talk about
negative things.

482
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,920
But I have heard of and
experienced it literally myself

483
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:06,840
in my working career.
Lots and lots and lots and lots

484
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,800
of academies and lots of people
working academies who say, oh,

485
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,520
we've my school was introduced
like extra pay points or they've

486
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,440
just changed the paper.
More pay points.

487
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:16,800
More pay points.
Yeah, Yeah.

488
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,560
Well, in reality what they did
was they just added a pay point

489
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,560
in between the main pay point
scales and then said to start,

490
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:22,720
yeah, you go up one each year.
Yeah.

491
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,600
So, OK, well, sorry, you've just
given me a half a pay rise and

492
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,600
that's a significant drop.
So just just let me, let's be

493
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,480
really clear.
We worked in an Academy trust

494
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,160
that did this, that became an
Academy trust and within a year

495
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,280
changed the future pay scales to
not be in line with the

496
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,160
national, the national pay
awards.

497
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,680
And what it meant was that that
Academy was able to say, look,

498
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,360
guys, you're one year in, you've
done your in Q2 year, which it

499
00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:48,080
was back then, you're going to
go up one point in the pay

500
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:49,880
scale, which sounds good.
Of course, you've got one point

501
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,040
in the pay scale.
But let's just be really clear

502
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:56,160
in the new Academy system of how
they paid their staff, one pay

503
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,320
point is half.
So if you were in a maintained

504
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,200
school, you would go up to the
next actual pay point.

505
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,800
But in this school, which
introduced the new pay points,

506
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,440
doubled them and put one in
between, you didn't go up to

507
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,480
where you should be.
And it just meant that for the

508
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,520
whole of your career in that
school, you were getting paid

509
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,960
less than if you worked in a
maintained school.

510
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,320
And to be really clear, in
subsequent years in this

511
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,040
particular school, you could go
up to pay points, which was

512
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,200
equivalent to 1 old pay point.
But the point was from that NQT

513
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,960
year to your SEC to your second
year of teaching, it was like a,

514
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:28,440
Oh no, this is just what we do
here.

515
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,200
You have to only got one point
for this year.

516
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:31,280
I.
Remember saying what?

517
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,080
Is there not a way that I can
just go up one point?

518
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:34,720
I think you mentioned it and I
couldn't.

519
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,000
Can I just go up to the one
traditional point?

520
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:38,360
Yeah, which would be two in this
new scale.

521
00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:39,720
I was like, no, no, that's just
not what we do.

522
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,640
So what essentially was
happening in that Academy trust

523
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,920
was that every single person,
every single year of their

524
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,680
career was one to two grand
lower than what they would have

525
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,360
been.
Always half a pay point behind

526
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,360
and some even more because they
also abused it in future years

527
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:56,520
for some staff with their
performance appraisal by saying

528
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,760
well if you don't meet certain
targets you only got one point

529
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,120
rather than two points which is
traditionally one pay points and

530
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:04,040
that is it was awful.
The way where we knew that this

531
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:08,480
was actually confirmed was when
we left that school and went to

532
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,560
a different school that was
maintained locally and followed

533
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,920
the national pay bans, and we
went up to exactly where we

534
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,000
should be, which felt like an
insane rise.

535
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,600
Yeah, but it's just where we
should have been based on our

536
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:20,840
experience.
Because they literally just

537
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:21,880
said, oh, how many years you've
been teaching?

538
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:23,840
So Oh yeah, I've been teaching
five years or whatever that OK,

539
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,120
so M5 and I was like, oh,
actually I'm on M 1.27 at this

540
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:29,080
point.
So this is a great pay pay rise,

541
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:30,920
you know, madness.
No.

542
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,280
But so, yeah, that's, that's
where we come from.

543
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,800
I think when you look at Unite
Learning, so they talk about

544
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:41,240
this, they've got their, their
pay is 5.6% above the national

545
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,920
scales in general and they kind
of load to the bottom a bit.

546
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,600
So newer teachers get paid a bit
more.

547
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,800
I think that's a good thing in
the current crisis in terms of

548
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:49,600
the, you know, cost of living,
etcetera.

549
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,000
I think it's good because the
less money you earn, the more

550
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,400
you're impacted by the cost of
living.

551
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,920
And what I want to say about
this is, again, it would be

552
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,920
really easy to look at this in
general and just go, yeah, it's

553
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,520
good we're getting rid of
Academy because everyone should

554
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:08,280
just be equal and the same.
I absolutely agree with the the

555
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,480
United learning approach here of
why wouldn't you want to pay

556
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,280
your staff bit more if you can?
Why wouldn't you take advantage

557
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,760
of the economies of scale?
This is united.

558
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,040
United Learning is is a Academy
trust with over 90 schools in

559
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,280
it.
So a lot of their admin teams

560
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,720
have been slimmed down a bit.
They save money through that

561
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,800
economies of scale with cleaning
contracts with the different

562
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,960
kind of thing where you can get
your whole, your whole school

563
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,120
body involved and save money
means that you can put money

564
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:36,120
into paying your teachers more.
How can I sit here and say

565
00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:39,080
paying your teachers 5.6% above
the national average is a bad

566
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:40,280
thing?
Of course it's a good thing.

567
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:42,520
It would be a bad thing if it
came with the detriment of

568
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,880
support staff and it came with
the detriment of OK, you're not

569
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,040
following the teachers pay
conditions, you don't follow

570
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,440
directed time.
So you're actually working more,

571
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,280
you're working more than 5%,
which?

572
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:53,920
Comes at a cost somewhere else,
basically.

573
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,440
Exactly, but from from what I've
read and from what I've seen, it

574
00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,000
looks as if this is a good way
of innovating to save money to

575
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,000
pay your staff more.
So from my perspective, the

576
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,720
whole argument just seems really
silly.

577
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,320
I don't.
I just don't get, OK, May maybe

578
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,200
I understand why this person's
saying we shouldn't have this

579
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,440
bill right the the the United
learning CEO.

580
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,520
But surely the argument should
be, yeah, this is really good

581
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,480
for all the other schools where
that people are being taken

582
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,520
advantage of.
So maybe we should be arguing

583
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,080
towards can we just remove that
top bit though that isn't like

584
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,840
we can still go above.
So you're, you're saying put a

585
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,320
put a lower cap and say he can't
pay staff less than that.

586
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,600
Surely everyone that's in that's
in favour of paying teachers

587
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,520
more should be unanimous in
arguing that.

588
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,800
Yeah, like, why are they saying
no, don't do this bill?

589
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,840
Yeah.
Like to me it's like, no, this

590
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,600
is a great bill for most people
in academies where they are

591
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,000
actually not getting paid
properly.

592
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,560
Well, the issue would be that
that he's worried that it would

593
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,520
mean he'd have to go to the
national pay scales, which would

594
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:49,880
mean he would cut his pay scales
immediately.

595
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,160
Yes, you have to follow the pay
scales.

596
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,080
So he's saying it's bad because
this bill means he'd have to pay

597
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:55,280
his staff less.
Yeah, yeah.

598
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,000
No, I agree, but for me I'm like
his counter argument shouldn't

599
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,080
therefore be yes, I scrap it.
It should be let's just change

600
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,040
that a little bit.
It's a it's a good idea in

601
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,960
essence, but sorry, just by
hand, I've got 90 schools, I'm

602
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,000
paying my staff more and this is
how I'm doing it.

603
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,760
By the way, can we just clarify
that actually, if you're paying

604
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,680
above national averages, that's
a that's an OK thing to do.

605
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,400
Like it just seems like that,
that should have been the

606
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,400
counter argument.
Yeah, yeah, no, it doesn't work

607
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,320
in my example.
So yeah, scrap the whole thing.

608
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,800
It's like, no, but then that's
we scrap the whole thing.

609
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:24,080
Yeah.
That's now what the cost of,

610
00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:26,360
again, all of the other
academies that absolutely are

611
00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:27,800
abusing that stuff.
I don't want that to happen.

612
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,760
It'll be interesting.
We've got another Q&A episode

613
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,720
coming up this week and one of
the questions we didn't go over

614
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,400
it in the episode.
So you won't, you won't, you

615
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,600
won't see that necessarily
discuss what it was to do with

616
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,440
this.
I wanted to bring up now and it

617
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,320
was this idea of this person
saying that his school is in

618
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,720
Academy and is very reluctant to
move to following the STPCD.

619
00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:50,920
So it's very reluctant to move
in towards, you know, the paying

620
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,000
conditions document that have
this kind of that most schools

621
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,840
looks like eventually it would
be forced to by this bill and

622
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,240
they're reluctant to do it.
And I thought to myself, I think

623
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:05,400
most of the time the reluctance
would be because their staff

624
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,280
would get more assurances, their
staff would get more money, the

625
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,480
staff would get more protection
in terms of their time.

626
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,320
And I feel like this example of
United Learning talking about

627
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,400
how we pay our staff more and
that might be ruined is a good

628
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,120
argument against this bill as it
is.

629
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,120
But it has to come into the
context.

630
00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:26,680
I completely agree with you that
if schools are running on the

631
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,480
goodwill of staff because
they're not meeting the minimum

632
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,600
requirements of the STPCD and
the minimum requirements of

633
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,080
note, you do director time is up
to 1265 hours.

634
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,960
If if a school is only
functioning because it's going

635
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,480
against those things, I think
that school needs to buck up

636
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:41,800
their ideas a bit and just go
over it.

637
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,840
Yeah, me too.
And I think ultimately if I was

638
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,960
given the choice of the bill
comes in exactly as it is.

639
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,280
And unfortunately, United
Learning do just have to take

640
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,720
the, it's a bit annoying for
them, but the pros are all of

641
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,320
the other schools are being held
accountable.

642
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:55,720
I probably would still pick
that.

643
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:57,720
And I'd just say to United
learning, you know, you're,

644
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,720
you're, you're obviously an
amazing Academy in terms of what

645
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,120
you've achieved.
I'm sure there's, I'm sure you

646
00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:06,120
can think of utilising other
school systems across the main

647
00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:10,200
pay scale, main pay scale points
and things like TLRS and

648
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,880
retainment and retention bonuses
that you can still give out

649
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:14,680
across schools.
I'm sure they can find a way,

650
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,240
you know, to to drive
recruitment up and show how

651
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,160
great it is to work at schools
and be competitive.

652
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,440
Like I just think the easy.
But it just seems so silly that

653
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,400
that we're we've been like, yes,
it has to be this absolute or

654
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,160
this absolute.
Can we just, can we just have a

655
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:27,880
conversation with the government
and say, Oh yeah, it's a really

656
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,120
good bill, by the way.
Yeah, make this minor tweak.

657
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:31,360
Yeah.
And then everything and then

658
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:32,760
it's literally fine in both
situations.

659
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,160
So the the DfE have responded to
this.

660
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,920
So the DfE have kind of, you
know, outlined the government's

661
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,080
position and the government has
said no teacher will have their

662
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,600
pay cut because of this.
So it sounds as if the DfE have

663
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,720
come back and said, look, we're
going to do this.

664
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,000
Yeah, but we're going to protect
the pay of obviously, if you're

665
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,240
above it, we're going to protect
that pay.

666
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,480
Now, there is a slight issue,
slight, slight issue in terms of

667
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,000
they've not outlined how they're
going to do this.

668
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,600
So there's some people saying,
yeah, but one way you might do

669
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,960
this is you're not going to cut
teacher pay.

670
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,040
But anyone who is above where
they should be will be stuck

671
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,000
there until the cancellation and
the STRB reports.

672
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,600
And every year we give a rise to
teachers until it catches up.

673
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,000
So there's, there's, you know,
it's not clear exactly how

674
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:14,960
they're going to do this yet,
but the government have said

675
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,240
they've insisted no teacher will
get a pay cut.

676
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,120
And their goal is to spread the
benefits of Academy flexibility

677
00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:24,360
through the system via national
scale adjustments.

678
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,360
So the point being, what they
want to see is all the benefits

679
00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:30,360
we speak about, like we
mentioned here, but for all

680
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:32,680
schools.
And if we see the benefits of

681
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,440
some academies paying their
teachers more, that's great.

682
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,160
But we have to protect against
academies squeezing their staff,

683
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,880
making well-being worse because
they're being worked to the

684
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,040
bone.
They're not meeting the pay

685
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,080
conditions.
I think it's got to be an

686
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,080
overall good thing, right, that
we're saying no, no, all schools

687
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,400
have a minimum that has to be
over.

688
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,040
There of course that to me that
is the no brainer solution to

689
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:54,960
this.
And there there was a really

690
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,240
interesting insight actually
from someone called Sir Michael

691
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,680
Wilshaw.
He used to be head of Ofsted and

692
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,600
he, his point is we need
oversight as some Academy

693
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,680
leadership pay.
So the pay of the leadership is

694
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,480
excessive and reduced autonomy
can help to ensure

695
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,680
accountability.
So he's making the point

696
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,920
basically, essentially what we
said earlier is sure, we might

697
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,920
reduce your autonomy, we might
reduce your ability to do what

698
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,400
you like, but actually that's
going to increase how we can

699
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,160
hold you accountable.
Because I think sometimes if you

700
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,200
look at maintained scores, it's
it's very, you know, you know

701
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,880
what, you're going to get
academies, they can kind of hide

702
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,120
behind like, Oh yeah, you know,
we're getting away with it in

703
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:34,160
our school, paying our staff
less.

704
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,080
We don't tell anyone what it is
and no one knows what it is, but

705
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:36,960
it's fine.
We're getting away with it.

706
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:38,920
It's all good.
You can increase accountability.

707
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:39,920
And I think that's a really good
thing.

708
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,320
The only thing I will mention is
we talk about everything being

709
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,280
in line for teachers and school
staff.

710
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,040
Bridget Phillotson said how
she's not sure about this.

711
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,200
She's a bit makes it feel a bit
makes it feel a bit uneasy.

712
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,640
This next bit, which is that it
doesn't count those higher up in

713
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,960
Academy trusts.
It doesn't account for CEOs.

714
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,040
They can still do and pay
whatever they like.

715
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:00,880
Oh, OK.
So it's not, it's not hitting

716
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,600
that top, top leadership pay of
you're in like that kind of

717
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,600
admin role at the centre of the
whole trust that still, and it's

718
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,080
been going up a lot.
It's still very much like that.

719
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:11,680
It's down to the trust.
You can pay what you want there.

720
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,480
So equality when it comes to the
teaching staff, but the top,

721
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,720
top, top levels, you can still
kind of pay what you'd like for

722
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,200
that, for that talent.
What I'd be interested to see,

723
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:22,840
and this might even be out
there, I'm not too sure, but I'd

724
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,520
love to see it from the
government is genuinely just

725
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,360
data on how many schools or how
many academies are actually not

726
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,440
abusing this at all and are
paying their staff.

727
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,680
Is this a fringe example with
United or are there, is it like

728
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,800
if they, if they turn around to
me and said 60% of academies are

729
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,160
actually using their freedoms to
overpay their staff and treat

730
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,080
them extremely well, better than
local authority schools, I'd be

731
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,040
like, OK, this, this adds a
different twist to it.

732
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,000
But if they're if, what my gut
feeling is they turn around and

733
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,760
say, yeah, 90% of academies are
either paying at the the

734
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,800
standard rate, you know, the set
rate or under, then I'd be like,

735
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,080
yeah, OK, do you know what?
I'm sorry, 10%, I am sorry that

736
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,200
that if like if they can't come
to a better conclusion of of

737
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,720
allowing you to pay over, but
there are 90% of people.

738
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,560
Well, you'll be pleased to know
this data is available.

739
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,000
The the the median salary for a
primary school teacher in an

740
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,400
Academy and the median salary
for a primary school teacher in

741
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,120
a local authority school is
exactly the same.

742
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,240
So it sounds as if you know,
some might be paying more, some

743
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:23,320
might be paying less.
OK.

744
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,240
And I just think we have to
safeguard.

745
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,120
I was paying less.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

746
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,800
It was about 41,000 something.
It was the exact same amount.

747
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:31,800
Right.
So, so the median salary, which

748
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,920
again, if, if anyone who's not
sure what we mean by median,

749
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,640
it's not quite average in terms
of me.

750
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,000
You add them up and you divide.
Yeah, yeah.

751
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,320
The 50th percentile.
If you line up everyone who

752
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:40,680
works in an Academy.
Yeah.

753
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,120
And line up everyone who works
in a local authority school and

754
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,520
pick the middle person, they
earn the same amount of money.

755
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,720
Now, what that could mean is if
you're in an Academy, some

756
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,520
people are earning more.
People are earning more and

757
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:52,440
more.
People are running less.

758
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,200
Yeah, that the range could be
bigger.

759
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,640
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
Yeah, So, you know, it's the

760
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:03,880
point being this introduction to
me is a no brainer because.

761
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,080
But the issue comes with we just
look at pay, which is what this

762
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:09,840
argument's all about.
And I understand what this guy's

763
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,960
saying, but we need to protect
pay going down and allow pay.

764
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,160
If there's some innovative way
that academies can do that

765
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,440
through their amazing running,
which sounds like it's done in a

766
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,480
good way, crack on and pay
teachers more.

767
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,160
Never going to say pay teachers.
That's no no.

768
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,920
My issue comes with the hidden
side of what academies can get

769
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,520
away with.
We talked about the list of

770
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,440
administrative tasks that
teachers don't have to do that

771
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,520
was involved.
It's been put into the teachers

772
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,760
paying conditions document.
Maintained schools have to

773
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,920
follow this.
Teachers can literally say I'm

774
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,120
not doing this because it's in
this document.

775
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,000
It's my working rights.
I'm not doing this because it's

776
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,000
gone past my 1265 hours a year
that I am stipulated to do

777
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,040
through directed time.
You can't direct me further than

778
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,080
that.
When academies don't have to

779
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,360
follow that, very, very, very
rarely can I imagine that means

780
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:58,640
that they're doing less.
Yeah.

781
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,880
In terms of the pay, it sounds
like it's kind of around the

782
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:03,520
same.
But there's some that take the

783
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,560
Mick, and we need to stop that.
But, yeah, in terms of the

784
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,760
working rights of that document,
I find it insane that some some

785
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,240
teachers are just like, oh,
well, my school's an Academy, so

786
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:14,520
that's pointless for me.
Yeah.

787
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:15,000
Yeah.
Oh, what?

788
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:16,920
So they can just ask you.
They can just ask me to do

789
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,800
whatever, right?
That's inconsistent and that's

790
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,320
unfair, and that needs to.
Change Yeah, yeah, yeah,

791
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,280
especially if going back to that
pay.

792
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,320
Imagine they are being paid the
same as a or even less local

793
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:27,400
authority.
That's what I mean, yeah, Get

794
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,240
paid less and they can just say
what to do whenever.

795
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,720
It's like, come on, that is a
double like a whammy you.

796
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,520
Know and that's why you need to
look at the whole thing, not

797
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:34,760
just pay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

798
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,720
Yeah, that's a lot of thing.
So last thing here is just

799
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,360
Academy freedoms in general.
So we're going to talk about now

800
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,360
how essentially there's going to
be more rules put in place to do

801
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,720
what we just talked about.
So one huge thing is that

802
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:54,800
academies will now have to go on
the same rules as maintained

803
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:56,280
schools.
They're going to lose some of

804
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,560
those freedoms.
There's been a lot of pros and

805
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,400
cons to this in terms of people
saying, oh, it's a good thing

806
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:01,840
because of this, it's a bad
thing because of that.

807
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,880
So let's just go through a a few
of them now and just think

808
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,160
whether in your opinion, I'm
going to come to you, Hayden,

809
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,199
each time.
Do you think it's a good or a

810
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:11,719
bad thing that we're going to
mandate these things now in

811
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,480
these schools?
Is it good or bad that there's

812
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,560
freedoms are taken away?
Because if we just say I'm going

813
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,199
to take away freedoms that sound
bad.

814
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:17,840
Yeah, of course it.
Does.

815
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,239
But let's dive into it.
So the first one, the bill

816
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:25,199
reasserts national oversight
through mandated qualified

817
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:28,880
teacher status for teachers.
If you're a teacher, you have to

818
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,080
be qualified.
I think that is probably a good

819
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:33,840
thing.
Yeah.

820
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,120
It's one of those annoying ones,
isn't it?

821
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:36,520
Because there will be someone
out there.

822
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,880
There's like, we've got such a
big population.

823
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,199
There's is there going to be an
unqualified teacher rather

824
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:42,480
there's that's amazing at
teaching?

825
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,080
Of course there is, of course,
But if we're thinking system

826
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,639
wide, I don't think it's a bad
thing, especially when teachers

827
00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:52,280
already get a bad rap in the
media of being useless as we

828
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:53,480
like, you know, people like to
call us.

829
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,080
I think it probably makes sense
that we should say, yeah, if

830
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:57,400
you're a teacher, you do have to
be qualified.

831
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,440
Yeah, 100% and and you can only
look at this, the state of like

832
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,960
how many you know this huge
sources of maths teachers in

833
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,280
secondary school.
Your math is being taught by

834
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,880
someone who isn't a qualified
maths teacher, especially in

835
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:10,440
secondary school when you're
getting ready for things like

836
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,240
GCS, ES or working towards your
A levels.

837
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,080
Let's not pretend that it's
always mean and rude for the

838
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,000
person who's not being qualified
for me to say that they're worse

839
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,000
than the other person.
No, no, it's just life.

840
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,080
It's just life.
You should be qualified as a

841
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,200
maths teacher and you should, if
you're a child, have the benefit

842
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,840
of a qualified teacher in that
subject teaching you that

843
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,120
subject.
So is there a chance though I'm

844
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,200
just thinking of the counter
argument here playing devil's

845
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,480
advocate, that in those schools
where they have had to resort to

846
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,080
hiring an unqualified teacher
either presumably because

847
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,120
they're just there isn't a
qualified maths teacher around

848
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,160
that wants to do the job because
I know there's been a shortage

849
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,600
or budget.
They're like we can pay

850
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,000
unqualified teachers less and
and we literally can't afford

851
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,200
anymore.
With this coming in, is there a

852
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:54,720
chance they're like we have no
solution now?

853
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,000
You've, you've touched on
something really interesting.

854
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,120
I think it's a huge, huge, huge,
huge point.

855
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:00,760
And I'm going to go meta here
now because I think you're

856
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,840
absolutely right.
We shared the list of 23 things

857
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,760
like I mentioned earlier, that
teachers shouldn't be able to do

858
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,600
or shouldn't be asked to do with
administrative tasks.

859
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,040
You're talking now about how
introducing, you know, a minimum

860
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:14,520
qualified teacher standard for a
teacher if they want to be a

861
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,800
teacher.
We just literally talked about

862
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,840
how we should force Academy
schools to pay their staff a

863
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,880
minimum level and not be allowed
to go below it.

864
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,920
All of these things cost money.
And it is so easy for the

865
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,360
government to release a document
that says, yeah, you got to do

866
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,160
that now.
Yeah, you gotta do that now.

867
00:36:30,240 --> 00:36:30,880
Yeah.
Yeah.

868
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:31,920
Isn't that great?
Yeah.

869
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:32,600
Back me up.
Yeah.

870
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,600
We've been voted in where Labour
we stand of education.

871
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,680
You gotta do this now.
Isn't that great?

872
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:39,720
It's fantastic.
Thank you.

873
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,240
Can you pay me though to do it?
Because we don't have the funds

874
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,360
to do this.
It has to come hand in hand with

875
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,520
funding if you want these good
things to happen.

876
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,680
I'm really worried that what's
happening at the minute with

877
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,120
this Labour government is it's a
lot of lip service.

878
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,040
It's a lot of good talking
points for education.

879
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:58,120
Yeah.
Isn't it great that we're going

880
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,400
to introduce wrap around care?
Isn't it fantastic that we're

881
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,840
going to get 6000 new teachers
in because we did the VAT on

882
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:04,800
private schools?
Isn't it absolutely amazing that

883
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,720
we're going to put all this in
and make sure academies don't

884
00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:09,000
have those freedoms to take the
advantage of their staff

885
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:10,560
anymore?
It's all all.

886
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,680
Could be fantastic.
It could be amazing, but if

887
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,840
you're not going to fund it,
it's not going to happen.

888
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:17,360
No, it won't happen.
It will just backfire.

889
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,080
Yeah, I agree.
Because if you really think

890
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,400
about it, you take it out of
context for a minute, out of

891
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,680
just put it into the idealistic
version of the world.

892
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,200
Like imagine sat there arguing
with someone of like, imagine

893
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,320
your infinite budget, right?
Should we let our teachers teach

894
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,800
if they're qualified or
unqualified?

895
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,280
Imagine a budget wasn't a thing
and you're thinking, oh, which

896
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:36,640
one should?
We do 5050, yeah.

897
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,160
Of course it's like you'd no one
would ever not pick well, of

898
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:40,320
course we'll pick pick the best
option.

899
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,040
The ones that are qualified or
on average, it just means we're

900
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,560
just they're going on more
likely to be better at teaching

901
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:46,640
because they're qualified.
Of course.

902
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,640
It's just it's mad, isn't it?
It shows how much funding can

903
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:51,480
warp your brain because there's
me sat there thinking I don't

904
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,120
know if we should do this
because there'll be schools left

905
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,360
in that in that tricky
situations.

906
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:56,360
Yeah, OK, cool.
They need more funding.

907
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,040
Since the government can do
this, it has to come with more

908
00:37:58,040 --> 00:37:59,000
money.
Yeah, exactly that.

909
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,040
It's like you've got a list of
things that sound great, you've

910
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,840
got to back it up or pick stuff
that you can do and say no to

911
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,640
other things.
We might find this is a bit of a

912
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,800
theme with these these things
here, which is like we need

913
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:10,800
money.
I think that's a theme for our

914
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,600
podcast.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure many of

915
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:13,640
our solutions are involved in
this.

916
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,480
Sounds great, but I mean, people
will say, well, at least Labour

917
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:21,000
are doing the right thing.
And honestly I'm just like, are

918
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,280
they?
Yeah, like, listen, I voted for

919
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:25,720
Labour.
It was time for the

920
00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:27,920
Conservatives to go.
What I did to education was

921
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,960
horrendous.
I really do think over the

922
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,920
course of austerity and that
that period of time, it just

923
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,600
decimated us.
But I cannot now sit here and

924
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,600
pretend that Labour have come in
and oh, it all is great now

925
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,800
they're saying the right things,
but you've got to back up and

926
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,600
just saying, oh, we can't,
sorry, there's no money.

927
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,360
I'm like, OK, don't say it then,
yeah.

928
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,720
There was no point in the 1st.
Yeah, don't, don't say it then

929
00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:52,320
because we we can all say what
you said.

930
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,360
Of course it's great all these
things, but we actually going to

931
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,360
do it or we're just going to put
schools into more of a corner

932
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:58,800
with their budget.
Next one.

933
00:38:58,800 --> 00:38:59,880
I thought this was really
interesting.

934
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:03,600
We talked about pay, but what
what this bill would do now for

935
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,360
academies is force them to be
compliant with the national

936
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,560
curriculum because I don't know
if people know this.

937
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,760
I don't know.
It's widely known that you don't

938
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:12,960
have to be as compliant with the
curriculum.

939
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,400
If you are an Academy, you have
some freedom.

940
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,120
And I've heard of schools who do
their own afternoon curriculum,

941
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,000
they go off paced a little bit.
And obviously it's it's obvious

942
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:22,600
with private schools that they
can do that.

943
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,400
But there is some freedom there
with the national curriculum

944
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,520
when it comes to academies as
well.

945
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,000
So it's going to strip back
that.

946
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,680
It's going to strip back
academies, freedoms on

947
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:32,640
admissions.
Yeah.

948
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,960
Because again, at the minute,
there's no there's no kind of

949
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,040
line for the local authority to
say, no, you need to take this

950
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:38,880
child, please.
It's local to you right now.

951
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,040
You need to take them.
It's going to allow that.

952
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,040
So a bit more of the local
authority to have power over who

953
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,080
enters the school.
And obviously, we've talked

954
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,520
about what's your opinion on
that, like compliance with the

955
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,360
national curriculum?
It, it makes me maybe it's a

956
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,520
wider point, I don't know, but
it makes me really feel like

957
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,120
they're starting to starting to
become a bit of a bias.

958
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,440
Like do they do this government
just not really like academies?

959
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,520
Do you think they're just trying
to kind of push back against the

960
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,520
academization of schools?
Because I know there's something

961
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,720
else about.
Up to now, right?

962
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,160
If a new school opens, it has to
be an Academy.

963
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:13,800
Is that Yeah, yeah.
It can't be a locally locally.

964
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:15,320
And they're pushing back on that
as well, aren't they?

965
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:16,400
Yeah.
So they're going to, they're

966
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,680
going to basically stop the need
for new schools to be academies.

967
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,840
And you can, you know, when a
new school's needed, it goes for

968
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,360
a process where it's not
automatically going to be a free

969
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,480
school or an Academy.
It could be a locally or so.

970
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,720
OK, so to me, like that combined
with the point you were just

971
00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:31,640
saying that I'm just starting to
build this picture of like, are

972
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:32,960
they are they basically just
anti Academy?

973
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:34,520
Is that what they're, is that
what they're trying to do sort

974
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:35,880
of subtly with this?
It's just kind of like just

975
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,760
shoehorn out academies and go
back to just just have local

976
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,640
authority schools.
Do you think that's their drive?

977
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,760
I think that's, you know, that's
the view of the unions.

978
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:46,240
That's the view of a lot of
people.

979
00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:49,160
Look, we've got to talk about
ourselves here.

980
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,680
In the past we've talked about
academies a lot and I think

981
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,920
sometimes we've been unfair in
terms of we've taken our own

982
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,400
experiences with how academies
can take advantage of systems

983
00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:02,320
and applied it and then talked
about the bad versions of what

984
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,960
academies do.
We have to also talk about the

985
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,880
amazing things that academies
are doing, the amazing leaders

986
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,200
that are out there, that with
the innovation and the freedom

987
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,640
to do things differently and the
economies of scale and the

988
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,600
saving of money and the looking
after of their staff.

989
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,240
And for example, we talked about
United Learning earlier.

990
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,560
Their staff get a well-being day
every time.

991
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:21,600
They get planning days where
they go off and plan the

992
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:22,600
curriculum.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

993
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,200
This, this freedom can be a good
thing.

994
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,360
And there's lots of amazing
people out there doing brilliant

995
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,160
things in the Academy system.
Better than the local authority,

996
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:31,360
you could even say.
Absolutely.

997
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,400
And there are some local
authorities doing things better

998
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,680
than than schools that are
academies around in the same

999
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,920
area.
And the theme here is the people

1000
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:39,920
involved.
And I think what we have to,

1001
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,640
what we see here with this
schools bill is when we're

1002
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,280
looking at the pros and cons of
different things, it it

1003
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,040
frustrates me slightly because I
feel like we can have the best

1004
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:49,800
of both worlds.
I really do.

1005
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,000
I really do think that if we
think about what the balance is

1006
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,920
here, about what the supporters
of this bill might say and what

1007
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,920
the critics might say, if we're
thinking about, you know,

1008
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,120
restoring fairness, if we're
thinking about having oversight

1009
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,320
and and a bit more kind of
transparency as to how schools

1010
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,880
are run and reducing that
fragmentation of things all over

1011
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:11,640
the place, that's clearly a good
thing.

1012
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,040
No one who's against this bill
thinks that that's a bad thing.

1013
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,960
But then those who are against
it will say it undermines

1014
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,040
innovation.
If you're going to take away

1015
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,360
these freedoms from academies,
you're going to lose some of the

1016
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,400
good success stories that who
can say that's a good thing?

1017
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,840
That's obviously bad.
We don't want to take away the

1018
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,440
innovation from people running
things in a better way.

1019
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,200
That's a really good thing.
OK, we can talk about here

1020
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,240
Academy driven improvement.
When an Academy school takes a

1021
00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:40,920
school or maybe involves it in
it's trust and boosts it's

1022
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,120
productivity, that's a good
thing.

1023
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,040
How can we sit here and say
that's a bad thing?

1024
00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:48,760
Of course we can't.
It feels as if I think you're

1025
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:50,880
right.
I think they don't like

1026
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,520
academies.
And I think in the past I've

1027
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,520
fallen down that trap of
thinking academies automatically

1028
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,600
bad.
Yeah, I don't think that's true.

1029
00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:02,400
And maybe I've changed my mind
slightly on that, and maybe I've

1030
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,760
just matured a little bit.
Like it's insane to say that all

1031
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:07,480
academies are bad.
Yeah, of course, of course.

1032
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,640
I'm going to change you a bit on
on, you know, opinions from a a

1033
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,960
long time ago from an illegality
far, far away in a podcast

1034
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,520
episode far, far away, because
previously, and I think this is

1035
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,400
a is a valid point.
So I don't think this undermines

1036
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:19,400
anything you've just said,
right?

1037
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,560
You have quite passionately said
before.

1038
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:22,880
That's the thing about this
episode isn't that you

1039
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,840
passionately say anything in the
past said that having up from

1040
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,760
the meta level, having half the
schools academies and half the

1041
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,000
schools local authorities is
just like the worst of both

1042
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,000
worlds.
Because it's like if we we

1043
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,960
should either obey Academy so we
can benefit from the the

1044
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,160
ecosystems that you can create
like like united academies that

1045
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:42,720
have like 90 schools or
whatever.

1046
00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:45,480
They can benefit from the shared
ecosystem and they can save

1047
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,320
money in places that singular
schools and local authorities

1048
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:49,840
can't.
Or really small local authority

1049
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,560
pockets of schools just don't
have the economy of scale to do

1050
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,520
or we just need to have
everyone's in local authority

1051
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,880
schools so that we can do that.
But as a local authority, do you

1052
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,960
still think that we are in the
worst of both worlds, where it's

1053
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,600
like we can't really get the
full benefits of either because

1054
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,880
half schools are local authority
in a local authority and half

1055
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,400
the schools are academies?
My gut instinct is, yeah, I

1056
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,720
still think that like, like when
when I'm talking about the pros

1057
00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:15,920
and cons of both, all I want to
make clear is that, OK, let me

1058
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,200
put it this way.
If every single school became an

1059
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,320
Academy overnight, I think
there'd be lots of things that

1060
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,240
are more beneficial.
Yeah, and, and you, you have to,

1061
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:30,360
you have to say it's just true.
But I feel like if all, all, all

1062
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,400
schools became an Academy
overnight and they had this huge

1063
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,320
economy of scale, it feels like
we're stepping back into the

1064
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,720
local authority system earlier
where we already had that

1065
00:44:37,720 --> 00:44:39,040
economy of scale opportunity
there.

1066
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:43,880
So like, it just feels like it
feels like a, a step potentially

1067
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,280
in a, in a strange direction to
basically go from cool, we've

1068
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,360
got the economy of scale to
local authority and we can work

1069
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,600
things out and save money and do
things well for our teachers.

1070
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:54,280
OK, cool.
Or we could all be academies

1071
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,920
where we can still do that.
But because we're academies, you

1072
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,000
don't have to follow the STBCD.
And I just think to myself,

1073
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,040
that's where I've landed there.
That's why I've, that's why in

1074
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,440
the past I've said, well, it's
insane that we're not protecting

1075
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,720
the rights of teachers.
We're going to say that you

1076
00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:09,200
don't have to follow this pay
document anymore, or more

1077
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,200
importantly, I'd say the actual
conditions of your work.

1078
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,240
If we're saying you don't have
to follow that, it seems like if

1079
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:17,120
you don't need to look in the
private sector, that as soon as

1080
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,840
that happens, it gets lost.
Why would it go up?

1081
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,120
And those schools who are going
up, fantastic, well done.

1082
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,600
You're recruiting people, it's
great, but what does that do for

1083
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,320
your local area?
You're taking all the best

1084
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,360
teachers because you've got that
freedom.

1085
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,440
The local authority school down
the road doesn't have that

1086
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,960
freedom.
That means that school has

1087
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,320
teachers who necessarily aren't
as good because all the best

1088
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,200
ones are being swallowed up by
the freedoms you have as an

1089
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,720
Academy.
And then that school go down

1090
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:46,240
slightly because of it.
Like is, is that what you want?

1091
00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:48,640
Because it it feels to me as if
we shouldn't be treating this

1092
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,200
like a private company where if
Adidas do better than Nike, who

1093
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,280
cares if one school does better
than the school down the road

1094
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:56,840
because it has more freedoms
than the other one.

1095
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,080
We should be looking at how to
balance that a little bit.

1096
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,240
Because I care about those kids
in the other school just as much

1097
00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:03,960
as I care about the kids, even
though they're not in my class.

1098
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:05,280
It isn't bad in my school.
Yeah.

1099
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:05,680
Less.
Yeah.

1100
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,600
Yeah.
I've never, ever thought to

1101
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,560
myself I care more that these
children do better than everyone

1102
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:13,200
else.
I've thought I want all the

1103
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,280
children to do well.
So if there's a system that

1104
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,400
means that that that school's
left behind, we need to change

1105
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:18,840
that.
Right.

1106
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:20,640
Yeah, definitely.
I think the the whole economy of

1107
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,280
scale thing is is a bit of a
buzzword, but and it's such a

1108
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,480
good thing when we look at that
example we've looked at with 90

1109
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,520
schools, it's great.
But what we, we see in our like

1110
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,280
in our area, and there's lots of
areas like this is economy of

1111
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,040
scale doesn't work when there's
12 schools in an area and six of

1112
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,120
them are part of three different
Academy chains and the other six

1113
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,840
are part of a local authority.
And it's like no one's getting

1114
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:40,120
the benefits of economy of scale
there.

1115
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,360
No one is.
If they were, if all 12 of them

1116
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,920
were in a were in the same
Academy trust, they might do.

1117
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,320
Or if all 12 of them are in the
same, under the same local

1118
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,400
authority, they might do.
But the problem is, is that

1119
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,560
fragmentation, right?
That's where it just all falls

1120
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,440
down.
And the problem, not even a

1121
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,840
problem really, just my
speculation, I guess with what

1122
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,520
Labour are doing is as we've
just ironically tipped into the

1123
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,120
into the era of there's actually
more academies now, it just

1124
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,880
seems like this is the worst
possible moment to now start

1125
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:05,640
trying to push back.
Now.

1126
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,000
Let's do you know what, let's
get local authorities back on

1127
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:09,200
the scene.
It's like, do you know what?

1128
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,760
Actually, if we're going to be
really objective, it's more

1129
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:14,160
efficient now to make them all
academies.

1130
00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:16,800
It hasn't been for the last 10
years where this could have come

1131
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,320
in before and just now we're
just we're gonna bounce around

1132
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,680
the halfway mark now, which is
like the ultimate worst possible

1133
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:22,560
option.
Yeah, yeah.

1134
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,520
And if we do that, I just think
there's certain conditions that

1135
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,160
need to be minimised.
I think what you said is really,

1136
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,080
really good point.
It just has to be minimised.

1137
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,560
You can't dip a teachers
conditions in order to pay for a

1138
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:33,680
brand new swing set.
You know, in the it's just not.

1139
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:34,680
No, you should be able to do
that.

1140
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,320
Yeah, the paying conditions
should be a minimum.

1141
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,640
I think it's really, really,
really interesting the way you

1142
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:39,720
said that.
But I'm sure there's lots of

1143
00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:41,520
things, you know, there's lots
more to think about and

1144
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:43,440
listeners, you might be thinking
of your own points that we've

1145
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,320
not addressed like, and you
should absolutely write in and

1146
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,400
let us know what you think.
And I'm sure there's a way they

1147
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:48,560
can do that.
Dylan I.

1148
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,160
Think they can get us on all our
socials actually at T St podcast

1149
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,880
on Instagram or at TTPP podcast
on TikTok if they just you

1150
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,200
follow us on there and one thing
they could do.

1151
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:59,040
Oh yeah, because you can't write
into you leave a five star

1152
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:01,960
review can.
You get your podcast, leave us a

1153
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,360
five star review.
What we'll do is we'll follow

1154
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,440
this bill as it goes through
it's current in House applauds.

1155
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,240
There gonna be amendments is
gonna be people saying we need

1156
00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:09,600
this, we need that.
We should ban phones.

1157
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,800
We should make sure this is in
place and anything we've missed

1158
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,440
we'll certainly circle back
round to and do episodes on

1159
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,600
exactly in the future.
Homeschooling, which is going to

1160
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:18,760
be a really good one, we'll do
in the future.

1161
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:20,640
Exactly that, right, guys?
Thank you so much for listening.

1162
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:22,880
I'll catch you again next week.
Me personally, just me.

1163
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:24,280
I'll catch you again.
This guy who might be there.

1164
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:25,400
I'll tell you what I'll be
doing, Dylan.

1165
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,640
I'll be catching them on
Wednesday when we answer your

1166
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,800
questions in our next episode
that you forgot about.

1167
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:31,840
No, no, I don't forget about
anything, just didn't mention.

1168
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:32,720
It see you then.