Ep 183: Q&A: Behaviour Charts, Residential Trips & Exploiting TAs

0:00 Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Teach the Repeat. My name is Dylan and my name is Hayden. And we're back with another question and answer our lovely WhatsApp community. You can join down below. Even a few questions from our website, I forget we have one of them. Hayden. Yeah. I'm not going to lie. Set that up and let that run, didn't we? Yeah, it's like, oh, we must get a website. We must get a website. Never look. Don't even know what it is. Never look down in the description, we'll link to it. But thank you so much because there have been a few submissions from there as well. Without further ado. I was switching pretty quickly and immediately into. A hand? No one. Ever says that with with sorry, with further ado before we jump in. I was with I was with Lauren's dad and Lauren's step sister the other day, right? And she, to give her credit, avid listener.

0:43 She's 20 years old. Yep, 20 years old. And she's been listening for like 2 years since we started. So shout out Jazz. Thanks for listening. Keep giving us feedback. And she said her favourite episodes are the Q&A's. Yeah, I favourite ones, I must say personally, I know I am involved in both and plan the other ones a lot of the time, but these ones I love because it feels more laid back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was a good use of further ado. I'm going to start doing that for now, saying with further. ADO. When I want to store something, I. Go straight now. I can't think of the original phrase Without without. Without is it? Without further ado. Without further. Ado. OK, yeah. And it means like without like. It means go straight into it. Sorry with ado. With further ado, actually, I want to mention something else. Oh God. Anyway, but without further ado, let's read this first question. Where do teachers stand with residentials? Oh baby, how how what?

1:31 What was on your bingo card for the time of the year when we would first mention residentials? Jazzle. No, this is our third iteration of what's going on about it. Anyway, I can see where this is going. I'm a second year ECT and it's my first year in year 56 and they are going on their residential. I have not been asked to go so I think there is an assumption that I am as they are my class. Yet the previous teacher never went on residentials. The trip also leaves on a Sunday, so I would have to give up part of my weekend and gain nothing from the 24/7 work for four days in a row. I don't want to seem like I don't care and be awkward, but it's unfair to assume I'd go just because they're my class and I have no children at home. I worry my executive head will hold this against me in the ECT review as she has a habit of bringing up previous points and holding grudges. Gain nothing.

2:19 Does she understand what this vocation is? Does she understand the experience that you'll gain? Do it for the love of the children. Some relationships you'll build with those children that'll be worth it. Gain nothing. Right. I think this, jokes aside, is a really good question because it does round everything off because quite often we'll get questions like this and me and you'll just say, you know, you don't have to do it, just say no. And that's obviously very easy to say and some people struggle with doing that in general, but it really was cut off at the end with literally this person's worried about being held against them when it comes to stare of you by people in charge. That is something like you actually can't control. So I want to dive. I want to jump straight into that of your opinion because I'm sure we'll talk about the rest of the second, but that really piques my interest of what do you literally do when you think actually, do you know what this will affect my performance review, potentially even my pay and my future standing in this school and future opportunities. Does that come into it at all when you decide to do these things?

3:13 It does. It does come into it and absolutely it would affect my decision. Should it? I don't know. I don't know if it should. It probably shouldn't really if we're being objective like on paper like that probably shouldn't. OK, I just want to clarify what I mean because I don't mean, I suppose when I say should it, it's easy to say, well, it shouldn't. But it what I mean is in the actual situation where you are a teacher in a school where it is going, should that make your decision change? Like not should it exist in the 1st place because of it's obvious that shouldn't exist in the 1st place. Yeah. But I mean, now you're in a school with a head or, you know, has passed of going after people and holding stuff against them and not and and like limiting their career. Yeah. In that situation, should you just swallow it and take it and go for it or or should you still hold your ground? Oh.

3:54 It's, I think, look, I, I genuinely think you can kind of separate them a bit and do both and and, but by that I mean because. I don't know what you're on. About I, I think, I think you, you can still make the decision in that moment to be all right, I'm going to do this, but there's a bigger play here. I'm going to do this. I'm going to go on the presidential. You might even sort of want to go anyway, but you're thinking I'm not going to make a point. However, I will make my point a different way. I'm still, I'm not just going to do it and roll over and say nothing. I'm going to do it. But I am also going to raise my concerns with, with whoever it is with this or T whatever and say, look, I really didn't like that you would just presume that I would go, Obviously I'm going to go, OK, it's not a problem. Why? I'm not saying I'm not going to go, but it did make me feel like this, you know, whatever, however it made you feel. And I don't like the fact that I've been pressured into this decision when realistically no other teacher has. And last year the teacher didn't even go and I've not been given that same grace.

4:45 So I feel like you can do the thing. You can still tick the box, right, That ultimately they're going to go. Oh well, they did do it though and raise the thing. But what like from a leader's it like I'm just being honest. That sounds like a bit of a cop out in terms. Yeah, in terms of you still have to, you still do it. So the if I was a leader in that situation, I know I'm being a douche, but I know I'm being an idiot. So if if you know, they go, oh, I'll do it. But as soon as I hear that, I'm like called turn off. Oh yeah, do. You know if there's a difference then between being called out on something and not being called out? Yeah, completely. You should definitely call them out in it. But ultimately I don't think, I don't think what you said will change the mind of someone who has already made that decision to be an idiot like that person that that head is going to hold this against. I, I can guarantee understands and knows they shouldn't be doing that, but they're doing it as a technique to get free labour out of someone. They're being toxic.

5:32 So as soon as you say yeah, OK, I'll do it, but it's not nice what you're doing, the head will just go. I know, but in their head like yeah, great. But are you going to do it though? You are going to do it? Cool. Nice one. Thanks. OK. So I guess that's where this is going. I think there probably are some people that if they get called out on something, they'd maybe think twice about doing it next time. Do you know what I mean? It's like a as long as they don't get called out, they're thinking, oh, easy, easy to get away with this. Nothing on my conscience. As soon as someone approaches them and says I know exactly what you're doing and no one likes it, I feel like maybe they'd think twice about do you? Not think they already know that. I think they know it, but I just, I literally think the acts of being called out sometimes make people think twice about doing stuff that they already know. They already know what they're doing is not very nice, but because no one challenges them, they it's easy to do. Do you apply, do you apply that kind of logic to striking? Like if as long as you call it out and say it's bad. Don't go out and strike though.

6:21 What? What do you mean? So like in terms of if we apply that logic to striking and like, oh, don't go on strike, please. And they know that it's because of a good reason. If you just call out the bad things, is that enough? You don't have to go as far as going on strike. If you call out the bad leadership in terms of expecting you to go on trips for nothing, but you still do it, OK, fine. But you called it out and that's enough. Is is calling out enough always? Or are you being specific in a situation? To to be really clear, I do absolutely not think that the same thing. No, it's just like a middle ground. No. So I don't think that's yeah, yeah, I don't think they're the same at all. But what I'm saying I don't definitely don't think it's the same is I think this is a middle ground basically you're, I think you're saying that calling it out and going on the trip is the same as not calling out and going on the trip, I think. What I'm saying is it's it will have the same impact in the long term.

7:05 Yeah, yeah, sure. Because because I think ultimately all people in this situation of leadership care about is getting the numbers for the trip to happen. And I think they already know in this situation that's been described here, they already know that they're being having an assumption or pushing someone to do work for nothing or, or pushing the boat. All I'm saying is I think as long as they get what they want, they don't care. Sure. And maybe there are some leaders out there who I, I, I don't think there's a middle ground of, I think either you know, what you're doing and whether you're called out or not, whoever, whatever, you're going to go on the trip. And I think there's some people who don't necessarily know what they're doing who calling out means they'll be like, oh, God, no, please don't go. That's fine. Then like, oh, I'll change my mind of expecting you to go. I don't think there are many people out there who are expecting people to go who know they're pushing the boat out. But then when called out will suddenly be like, oh, no, sorry. That's fine.

7:53 But I don't think that exists. I think I've been, I think I've been really cynical maybe. I think I genuinely think I'm trying to think of my own career. Like I feel like I've always, it's always been really presumed that I would go on trips. But as soon as you said no, you wouldn't. What I mean is as soon as you said no and called out the the people you're talking about, who I know would be like, Oh my God, yeah, no, please don't go. Yeah, so. So calling out is enough. But they did assume though up until that point. Yeah, that's fine. But I'm. We're talking about cynical head to heel hold grudges against people for not doing it. Yeah. I think they're two separate camps where calling out won't work for these people. Right. OK, that's what I find that that's my gut instinct here. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure there are some people where for some reason calling out makes you change your mind, but. So for this person then, would your, what would your advice be? Would it be to Yeah, absolutely stand. Your ground.

8:34 I'd say ignore everything else. What? What's your opinion? And this person might say, you know, I actually want to go. I used to want to go on residentials and I did, and it was great. I didn't, I didn't expect anything because I chose to go. Yeah, right. Later on in my career, I chose to go if I got payback for it because I had other commitments in my life at that point where I'd still like to go, but I'm also not going to do it for free this time because of XYZ. Yeah. And then I went because I got time in lieu. And then there was a point in my career towards the end where I just didn't want to go in them anymore. Yeah, no, but you could have given me 3 days. And I was like, no, I just actually don't want to go away. 3 days, three nights away from my family. So I don't want to do that right now. And I just say no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. So it depends. What I would say to this person is you have to look at it, try and ignore everything else.

9:15 What's your actual opinion? And then say that, yeah, that is what I'd do. And I'd say if you want to go, call, go like there be an assumption for whatever I actually want to go. So this is beneficial for me. As soon as it's not beneficial for you because of what you actually want to do, raise it, say it. And if they hold it against you, get the governors and the Union. Involved, yeah. OK. So you wouldn't be put off by that. No, no, no, I personally and this person's asking for help and that's just what I would do personally. And I would say to this person, look, you have to go off what you literally believe yourself. Don't pander to someone and like, for example, I imagine a situation where you don't want to go, but you're worried about them holding against you in the future, so you do go. And I'm just like, that's setting up a precedent for a future of continuously doing this. Yeah, sure.

9:58 You have to break this cycle at some point. Maybe you've decided at this point it's worth it for me just to go this time. Overall, fine, OK, But that's where I'd lead with because you are backed up by your contract and your unions and your governors and your whistleblowing policy. If someone holds this against you, they literally can't. And I am fed up of people in power being given a pass for acting this way simply because it's awkward for the person. Or why? Don't make a thing. Oh, don't go to that person. Yeah, sorry. Don't expect me to do it for nothing then. It comes from that. We get it all the time of our posts online. Why being divisive? Oh, I think it's actually the people doing this who are being divisive and not me calling out on social media. It's not. It's not you that's the problem here, not wanting to go in this residential. It's the assumption that you're going to. That's the toxic part.

10:43 And I completely agree with calling it out, but all I'm saying is don't call it out. But then just like go to the status quo. Like I'm all for affirmative action. I feel like we've drawn this line quite a few times in general. I'm much I'm much more likely to say, yeah, go on strike. Of course you should raise you will think more about, you know, public perception or, or what can you do other than that? And that's a great dynamic, But I'm just trying to explain where I am if you seem like you're not quite. I really appreciate appreciate what you said. I just always look for some sort of middle ground. I don't think you think that middle ground exists in this situation. Yeah, but maybe that's it because I'm, I'm saying this middle ground doesn't exist at all, ever, but I just think it's way less common. I think if someone's doing this and being presumptuous and being a leader that's just hoping you do your extra work for free. Yeah, Yeah. I don't think they don't know that, no. And I don't think calling out will affect. I think our common ground is neither of us agree of getting walked all over there.

11:29 So neither of us are saying I'll just do the trip. That's not what I'm saying. I'm only saying unconditionally I would do the trip, but I'd absolutely cause a ruckus and make a point and say, look, next year though, I'll do this trip this year. I don't think, I think you have just assumed that I'm going to be fine going. You haven't actually asked me. No one's asked me. I don't think that's fair. I am happy to go this year, but next year I would appreciate being asked beforehand and just just to start something. That's what that's what I'd do if I was worried about all of those other factors. And I was. And it was giving me, if it was giving me too much anxiety, the idea that I was going to go against the grain. And now that I think that all eyes are going to be on me for the next year and I'm going to hate every minute in this job, I probably would just make that middle ground decision to make my life a bit easier. Yeah. But ultimately, me personally, I probably probably would do what you're saying, though.

12:14 Yeah, I still and just make a point. It's down to the person, isn't it really, is what we're saying here. Because I actually do agree with you. Like if it's going to make you an anxious mess for the year and it is net positive to just go like some people always say, oh it's just better for me to do work at the weekend because it just puts me at my mind at ease. I've got time to do it, it's my choice and I feel better for the week. Who am I to say don't do that? Saying to this person like if there are two options here and 1 is going when you don't want to but your life's easier or don't go and then you've made your life tricky. If you have decided that one of those options is better for you, who are we again? Exactly? Don't do that. So that's fine. That's kind of what I'm trying to open up really. And what we'll do is if, if you know, you stand up for yourself and you get, you know, loads of toxic behaviour hurled at you, we'll just start a name and shame section of this podcast where we just name and shame schools and people, right?

13:01 That would go down well. I think so. I think so. Well what I mean is so toxic lads calling it out, why are we giving the toxic people a pass? Whatever. Next question. OK, here we go. This is from the website. Yeah, So it's from the website. There's an e-mail looks different on my iPad and it is anonymous. Good to know because there is a name and I will not read. It at the end of. The bottom it says please keep me. In other words, I've just seen that yes, OK, cool. Right. So from I'm just kidding. I I'm just kidding. He's an ugly guy. Wow, don't say his name right? I really liked hearing about your teaching journey this week, however, that's nice. Something that always comes up, and I don't think this is intentional, is that you've never taught in A1 formentary school and how difficult that is. You were talking about becoming maths leads of a hub in a big school but it's so difficult leading a subject in A1 formentary school.

13:47 Every teacher is at least one subject lead. I have a colleague who works 2 days and and leads 2 subjects. Cracky. Oh my goodness. I am three days year six class teacher and science lead and we're lucky if we get 1/2 day out of class for our subject. Wow a year? Sorry Oh my days. I just wonder if the difference between one form entry and larger schools could be something that you could discuss slash look into. I have only really worked in A1 form entry school and it's so hard. All the planning is on you for your class. Please keep me anonymous. Good job. Firstly, I just want to say I have worked in one momentary school. I did one year in one form. And I was massively there and it was horrendous. And it was a brand new school. Brand new school and I did, honestly, I did basically nothing for that subject because the workload was insane. I went in there with like these high hopes of oh wow, I'm going to do all this stuff, all this stuff like I've been doing at my BIG4 form entry school before massively would be have teams of people that can actually do stuff. I went into this school with the same thoughts and dreams and then got completely bogged down with the fact that it's a one form.

14:43 To make the lessons. I needed to make so many more lessons, so much more planning. It was ridiculous. And I did the bare minimum from apps leadership that year, purely not because outspite, purely because there was literally no time left. So I can sympathise a little bit with the fact that they're vastly different depending on what school you're in. I think I sympathise a lot. Like, I think it's outrageous because like this person's mentioned here about leading subjects, right? You still need to lead a subject. Your, you know, your grasp on the history curriculum as a history lead and the progression you need. And, and if you were to get deep dive, like like in our school a couple years ago, got deep dive in history, everything you need to know to do that properly doesn't change just because you've got fewer children in the school. You still need to know everything up to scratch and have a certain standard. So I don't think the workload changes that much in terms of like, you know what you've actually got to do, but your time does and your inability to do it. I just want to put out there right now that I think the the difference in workload and what the job is actually like from school to school is insane.

15:45 And, and, and we've mentioned it before, but we don't talk about enough because it's not just about how big the school is, it's about your leadership and your management and what's acceptable as well. Because I've worked in and seen, you know, four form entry schools, huge schools where you know, the, the option is there where you can share planning. And I've seen the same huge schools who say, no, sorry, you're not allowed to share planning because it's not good for you need to have individual things for your class and then sharing planning is banned and you're not allowed to do it. And you end up with a very similar workload to A1 form entry school. It's insanely and it's just, I don't know where you want to talk more about what we've seen in terms of literally schools that are like 2 streets away from each other. You can have a completely different life as a teacher just because of your.

16:27 Environment, I mean, yeah, like I like I said, I kind of experienced that for a bit. And I will say when I left that one momentary school after one year, I did genuinely say to myself, I will never in my whole career ever work in A1 elementary school again. That's how difficult I found that and, and ultimately there are loads of 1 momentary schools and someone's got to work in them. That's what I was just going to say, like someone's got to work in them. It's not going to be me, but someone's got to do it. And what should they just get? They just. The same amount of money they just get. The same pay and they just like by default, it's not that the school could do something and then by default they are doing more work. But you said some, some jobs in schools don't scale. No, there's no scalability. It's like the history lead is the history lead. If you have 500 members of staff or 4, like someone's the history lead in the 500 school, you might be able to share that out. But in the in the when you scale down, someone's still got to be the history lead.

17:16 It doesn't it, it gets to a minimum point, doesn't it, where it's like someone still, like you said, someone still has to know all of the things. Yeah, exactly. And what, what, and are. Just and are less able to share it. Yeah, it's just mad. It's just mad when you think about it and it's, it's a big thing I think in teaching in general. It's just slept on the the differences people talk about. And what kind of gets me up a bit is when we talk about stuff, a lot of people seem really incapable of understanding a point of view that's different to theirs that they've not experienced. So if people haven't experienced being in A1 momentary school before, some people can empathise with it and try and understand it. Some people literally just don't get it. They're just like, well, in my school it's fine. Yeah. It's like, yeah, OK, we could list 4 things that's different in your school as to why it's fine, but that what they want to do is wear it as a badge of honour. Like guys, I don't do any work outside the school. Look at me, aren't I the best thing since sliced bread? You know what?

18:05 So I would be the same if I was in your situation. Congratulations. These people, although we've talked about martyrs before and people who love to love to wear the badge of honour of the other way around. Of I do so much work, aren't I the best person? Oh, woe is me, aren't I the aren't I someone who should be? Oh, I do so much stuff. I. Never see my family. OK, why is that great? Like there are some people like that, sure, but there are a lot more people who are reluctant in that situation who just, you know, oh, I need a job and my local school is not even one form entry. Maybe is, you know, mixed classes. I'm year 5-6 head of maths and English and I've, it's like, yeah. What do you mean? Like that job is incomparable to. If I look back at my role in the fourth elementary school, when I first started as a year 4 teacher, part of a maths hub, I wasn't even needing maths.

18:53 I was just part of a maths hub. I taught year 4 in a, in a with three other teachers and we share planning. Yeah, incomparable to what I've just described there. And I think, you know, I think this person's absolutely right. They said just wonder if you could like dive into this and discuss this. I think it's massive and the more people who understand it, the better. In my opinion. Your school is not the be all and end all. And you know, we've worked in different schools and I've seen different lots of workload and it just increases probability being a small school. However, however, go on, in that school, the 4th momentary school was the worst workload we've ever had, right? So like going to that next. So that's interesting. I think we did start off by saying I know I finished off, then by saying it increases the probability.

19:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think there's lots of factors that go into it. Definitely because I also try to start by saying it because that was very, that was very like rage bait comment there. I've also worked in and know lots of people that have worked in like 4 elementary schools where the workload is genuinely amazing and they can actually go home at like 4:00 every day because they properly optimise the fact that there's loads of people able to do one job right and they share it. Probably. We work, unfortunately in a school where though we actually initially, yeah, yeah, initially a long time ago where we had the privilege of being able to share planning and, you know, take advantage of the fact there's lots of members of staff and you don't, you know, doing one job essentially. But it just got filled with other, other nonsense as well. Like so, our workloads still got increased and massively. Probably in a way or it's like in A1 momentary school, the stuff that happened to us in that school would absolutely never happen because there literally isn't any time left that in A1 momentary school, our time would have been completely consumed by the fact that we're subject leads and planning and they just they wouldn't even it would have been laughed out the room if they tried to bring in some of the initiatives from our foreman school. It would have been like wet.

20:32 Seriously. Wait I'm already working here till 6:00 everyday just doing the bare minimum. I'm taking my maths lesson. Tomorrow. Would you? Of course I'm not. Going to I can't do an involvement. Stick up. Of course, I'm not going to do that. So it's interesting how some schools can still, despite having the better situation, still just put a burden on their staff of well, we know it. We know your work life could be great here. But yeah, we thought of 17 other things you can do instead at. Least you're not in A1 form School A, so why don't you do all this extra stuff as well? It's like, OK, it's how leadership reacts to that opportunity. There's some leadership in very small schools. Do you know what? Being a leader in a small school, I don't know how you do that. Like because there's a certain level, there's a certain amount of work you need from your staff, which automatically puts your staff in a high workload bracket because there's just few of them. And as a leader, like how do you go about that? Like I'd have, I'd have to be saying things like, please don't read, please be adaptable, use, use lessons that are already there, change things on the spot. That's how I dealt with workload personally was I would spend as my career went on, I spent less and less time planning meticulously, more and more time just thinking, right, this is my long term plan.

21:41 What am I doing today? Here's a couple of sheets from like literally from the year before and the year before and the year before, because guess what I'm still doing adding fractions with different denominators. It's I've still got to get the kids to do the same thing. But on the spot, I'd adapt and I'd go off tangent and I'd go on my whiteboard and I'd react to the kids and I'd make a group. That's where I earn my salt. That's where I could trade my literal physical time with my expertise. And and that was how I found myself saving workload. And I think as a leader, if you can try and translate that to your staff and give them the trust they need, it can help reduce workload and it can at least do something to take a little hit at when it's unfairly balanced like in a small school. Yeah, definitely. It's a tricky position for a leader. Isn't it really hard? Because it'll be very easy to come across as toxic leader when you know you've got six members of staff working for you, you've got 12 subjects that need to be divvied out, and it's like, what do you do? What do I do?

22:30 Like they have to exist. Yeah, the system is. The system's broken. Horrendous. They're absolutely. Interesting to hear. I reckon there's some leader that have thought of very creative ways of making sure that. Give one person 12 ruin, ruin one persons life for the benefit of the night. That one person you don't have to teach. You're just sorry. No, I've just checked the budget. You have to teach you. Have to teach as well. Sorry. It was like, sorry guys, sorry guys. Right. Next question, is it the expectation of Hltas higher level teaching assistants to do lots of planning for the cover periods that they are required to do? I think in some schools it is it shouldn't be right. It absolutely should not be so quite expectation. Can you just? Explain what for people who are listening, thinking what on earth you talking about?

23:13 What is a Hltas role? What do they often do and how can that be technical? So, so obviously you've got your Tasmania in class. HLTAS are quite often expected to be the ones that that cover falls back to. So if a teacher isn't available for whatever reason, cover is needed for that class. Normally the first port of call in a school where they don't just get in supply all the time is to go to HLTAS. So HLTAS, can you cover this session? Oh yeah, brilliant. So that that overrides. You're not going to be a TA in that classroom today. You're going to go and cover this teacher over here instead. So that is essentially the role. And in those situations, very often planning doesn't really come into it because it might be that the teachers called in sick that morning. Exactly 99% of the time in my career, planning was, was a week ahead. You know what I mean? You've already got it on there. You've got a partner teacher. There's there's no expectation of planning in that regard. But also what HRT as are used for very often is systemic covering, not just fill in the gaps when you can. Are we can't get a supply teacher in today, guys, sorry. We'll just have to use your you as a oh, it's cheaper. Who would have thought it some money as well? Isn't that definitely not a reason I'm actually doing this and getting an HLTA to cover, right? Yeah, and not bothering to go to supply. There is also.

24:19 I've worked Hltas who, for example, always do a Wednesday afternoon in the class. Sure, maybe that class teacher is also the year group leader and gets an afternoon out every week to do the year group leader duties. Yep, potentially that cover supervisor HLTA is going in to cover ECT time for a newly qualified teacher. For example, when I was an INKT, I had Mrs Laffey would come in every Friday afternoon and would do a lesson with my class that afternoon. Exactly the same. Now in those situations, quite often it is actually expected and put onto the HLT as to plan the lesson. And what I've seen in my career in all ways was that the HLTA is also expected to mark afterwards. Yeah, and I've got huge problems with both.

25:00 I I think that it should not be the expectation that you have to do either of those things. What do you think? I, I think so as well. I want to get into your brain a bit more because that's my gut feeling. I want to know what you're thinking. So do you think there's no situation where ATA or HRTA should be expected to plan a mark? No. I personally don't think so, no, unless you're going to compensate them for. It do you separate plan a mark at all or are they? Very much no. I, I, I literally for me, I separate time spent doing the job, time outside of the job. Yeah, right. When are you planning? When's that TA planning? Yeah, well, it's certainly not on PPA because they don't get PPA and it shouldn't be outside of their contracted hours because unlike a teacher where part of our literal contract says we have to do additional hours to our director time which we can talk about whether that's right or wrong, that does not exist for HLTA.

25:49 So it's very simple for me. Is it within the bounds of your contract, yes or no? Delivering the lesson? Yes. Well, they get a supplement for delivering the lesson. Barely anything like a pound extra. And that's to deliver the lesson. Yeah. Yeah. If that's if that becomes from marking and planning as well, it might as well. It literally isn't worth the money. Like the paper it's written on. Yeah, of course not. So I, I very strongly think that it comes down to simply is it within your contract? And if you are constantly expected to plan your lessons, I think you should be building the school for that time. Definitely. You, well, you, you're not being compensated for it at all. And I strongly believe, and I said this to every single person, I don't know know what you did in my whole career when someone covered me and and like, for example, I'd come back after school, maybe I'd be in a meeting and I come back after the kids are gone and I see my teaching assistant, my HLTA, marking the books. I'd say please go home right now. It is the end of your contract.

26:40 You're doing this for literally nothing. Even I sometimes resent marking. And I'm literally paid to do a bit of extra outside. You're not paid anything. Go home now. Yeah, yeah. And they'd go, oh, no, it's fine, it's fine. And sometimes they'd want to do it and OK, wait, crack on then. I kind of like linger around the corner and just wait till I can see. I'd do virtual signalling. I'd wait till they're on the last book. On the last book. Every time it's half four. I've been there since 4:00. Bloody. I'll hurry up. Last four o'clock watching reels on my phone peek around the corner. Oh, have you, you bloody mark? I told you last time not to mark on the last book. Just finish that one. Go off, go on, go home. Hello. Hello. No, I'll tell you what one thing because I'm because in all honesty, most like if the school says they've got to mark, we can disagree with that at the end of the day that they're obviously probably thinking the head teacher that gets to decide that's not you and they'll be thanks for saying that, but I am going to mark them because.

27:30 I literally have to. But you know what I'd say? Always said to that. I'll mark them, don't worry. Yeah, yeah, sure. And then and then. I wouldn't. Market when the comes round, it says. Bloody, bloody cover. Honestly, the TA. Again. Rubbish at marketing. I said you got a market. She was like, no, honestly. One to the butts yeah well we had I think I don't if it was school policies to be fair, if it was just in year 6, we just did this. But whenever they covered I literally it was just normal that they didn't really market anyway. They just kind of put in a thing that said covered by TA and then it was sort of like a nod towards if anyone does look at the books, are you really going to argue yeah or it was that was taught by ATA. Do you want them to go back and market and pay them for it or not? Best best version I think of it is that. Probably because that took them honestly 5 minutes.

28:12 And I would always say again, I'm not in the school anymore, so I don't in any school. So whatever I'd say to them in the lesson, just go and put a little tick, yeah. Then it's done it. Don't even read it because you know what markings a waste of time most of the time. Even for me, it's the literal teacher who sees them every day. Yeah. So yeah, and the only benefit I get out of marking it is because I'm the teacher that sees them every day. Exactly. You're the CA who's not going to be teaching them now for another three weeks. So there's literally no benefit to you marking these books because you're not even going to give them the feedback. But I'll stand by, look at the book and look at them to see your techniques to the work. Oh well, they can look at all the other pages filled with my markings go over and they won't look anyway because they don't care. They don't care. Making art problems that just don't exist. So yeah, HLT as should not be by default, should not be planning, should not be marking. If you work in a school where that's happening, maybe, maybe they're getting paid for it and that part of the deal. I don't know.

29:01 Probably not though. OK no great next question. I am a Teach First trainee in my first year. Just found out my school is closing. Just my luck. So I'm applying for loads of jobs for ECT one for September. Any top tips for interviews, especially how to prep to be observed while teaching a random class would be much appreciated. Love the podcast, I listen to it in the mornings while prepping resources and always gives me a giggle. It's actually quite funny. Yeah, my favourite quote. Yeah, actually quite funny. That's in our Instagram bio we had the other day that we mentioned. Love it. Oh, I mean that does. I do really feel sorry for this person because like at the end of the day they probably thought at least I've got this secure I cannot have to worry about. Getting the whole point to Teach First is that you're in the school, you're ready, you can. So man, that really that is frustrating. Big time.

29:46 But in terms of tips, I mean, I don't know if you listened to our episode recently, but learn from my mistakes of where I went to do interviews and I was trying to be too flashy almost. It was, it was ridiculous. Like looking back, I kind of wish I had just done a pretty standard like lesson, but just really try to show my other skills through teaching. Absolutely. I think now about like what I'd look for if I was looking for a teacher in my made-up school. In my head really I'm I want them to be in front of the kids because I just literally I want to see how they interact with them. I want to see how they adapt on the spot, how they interact with the children. Just general things like that. I would probably the lowest on my list would be how have they resourced the lesson? Maybe, maybe it's not for other people, but for me personally I'd be like. No, I'm with you.

30:27 Because resources have 10 a penny. Yeah. And loads of scores now give out schemes and hit, you know, literally the thing about maths in our school, we were like, well, here's a bunch of stuff. Yeah, but you're the teacher. Go off and do it. Like it's more about the vibe. Yeah, definitely. And vibe. Vibe sounds ridiculous, but I mean, vibe in a very professional way. Yeah. As in how you are with the kids, Right, 100%. So if you were, if you were hiring someone, what is the, what is the one thing you'd look for just to try and give this person? Like if you had to pick one thing, you were like, do you know what? I'm not saying the other stuff is unimportant, but I'm sat here, you're in front of the class. There's a group of 30 kids you've never seen before. Yep. What you're looking for? How quickly can they captivate the children? As in, just have all the children really interested in what you're saying.

31:07 Is it their fault if they can't do that with a class they've never seen before and they're a brand new training teacher? Because I, I like, I, I can imagine there's a lot of really, really good and newer teachers who might struggle with that and, and experienced teachers who might walk in and actually struggle with that straight away. Do you think? Yeah, because I think captivate, it depends what you mean by that, because I think it can be tricky to captivate a class even when you're 567 years in. And I think you can, if you're judging someone on that, you might be judging them based on the actions of the kids in front of them, which is not fair on them necessarily. How they react to it maybe? Yeah, I guess it's all proportionate, isn't it? You're right. It's in terms of how you act. I think if, you know, it's a tricky class as the person who's like doing the observation, then you can factor that in. There will still be differences, I think, in how people literally act in front of the children and it will yield different results. So whatever that scale is in terms of how those results yield differently, I'd be looking for the teacher who most effectively, even if it's 1%, because, you know, the classes, they're just horrendous and they don't want to listen to anyone. Anything he says.

32:06 I'd be looking for the teacher still or for me, who engages those kids the most, who gets the kids the most interested through their personality, through the way they speak, their intonation, the stuff that you bring to the table in terms of like, wow, the children to want to be in that room, like. And I totally appreciate the fact that that can massively change depending on the children. But like I said, it's in proportion though. Yeah, Yeah, sure. If you're comparing 5 different interviewees, I'd be looking for the one that does that the most. Yeah. No, definitely. I'd take that. What about you? I, I, I? Well, the thing I don't know, the thing I'd look for more is that I'd be looking at their nature, their calmness that, you know, it's easy to flap again in an interview and worry about stuff. And at the end of the day, you've got to understand that it is just a 10 minute snippet of what is potentially like a really important thing for that person.

32:50 So as, as someone you know, in that interview looking, I wouldn't be judging them harshly on things that I think could be explained for the fact it's a 10 minute interview and they're trying to get a job. I'd be looking for stuff like deeper than that. And it's literally like, you know, how they interact with the children, whether that's because they're telling someone if, if someone's being noisy or loud or not captivated, that in itself doesn't actually bother me. It's what the teacher does to react to that. It's whether they think that that's OK and then crack on and whatever. Or if they maybe have a quiet word with the person or maybe they're having a talk with that person over there. It's hard to build that in 10 minutes. But I think the way you try and do it at least is what I'd be looking for. And I think the other bit of advice I'd say directly to this person who's doing interviews is please don't try and deliver the best lesson of your life in this interview.

33:40 Yeah, it's true. But in doing that, you're setting yourself up to fail and you'll probably over plan massively because what you need to demonstrate is you as an individual, the actual lesson itself. You know what? You're people. I see people all the time saying what task can I do for, for multiplying fractions that's really interactive and shows off a really good understanding. And I'm like, OK, that's a nice, lovely question. And it's great you're thinking about that. And the task you give does need to be good, but you've literally never taught these kids before and you need to make a lot of assumptions on their previous knowledge. Do something quite basic, have a high ceiling, so low threshold, high ceiling, whatever it's called where everyone can do it but those who are good can really excel. Yep.

34:22 Like writing tasks are really good for that in English. If it comes to maths it could be some kind of investigation. Just create an environment where everyone can have a go and then you can show off how you can foster your understanding of children and quickly pick up on things and support that child or tell that child to make sure they're paying attention and why. Make sure it's a task that allows you to show off. Definitely shows off your nature, but you said complete your nature. I think that's very similar to what I was thinking, to be fair, in terms when I was saying how you can captivate them. I was kind of thinking the same thing. How how quickly can you use your ability and your nature and your ACT? Because it's all an act, really with children, to show the interviewer that you're really good in a classroom with kids, genuinely like. I think what you said is, is. I do genuinely think you meant the same thing. The way it's phrased sometimes is, it's phrased as I'm looking at the kids to see if they're engaged because like, I'm going to judge you based on how engaged these kids are. I, I, I, all I'm saying is with that, I'm like, oh, that's, you're going to miss the mark there quite a lot. Whereas if you frame it instead as I'm going to look to see how the teacher reacts to the class and whether the class are immediately engaged or not, OK, that can change because you do a great lesson later or you can do a worse lesson. But what won't change is how you react to situations. So I'd be looking at how the person reacts rather than how the kids are doing.

35:35 And it's the same, it's exactly the same thing. But I think that framing is important and I think for the person doing the interview, remember they're there to see what you're like as a person. If something goes wrong, they're not there to judge you on it going wrong. They're there to judge you on how do you react to it going wrong. And that is going to show your best side. I've been in classroom before for my interview for my most recent school where I did a lesson and the Interactive Whiteboard didn't work. OK. And still to this day, I've not asked, but I still to this day at the back of my head think it was a purposeful unplugging to just see, just to see. I, I maybe, maybe I'm a conspiracy theorist here and I love the people at the school, but I, it's the kind of thing that I think actually, do you know what that's interesting to me as someone hiring? What when something goes because something will go wrong in a perfect environment of an interview, OK, great. You can go.

36:25 Well, that doesn't tell me much. What tells me more about you is what happens when stuff goes wrong. So when I reacted, I just spinned it off and I was like, cool, we're just doing it on paper now. That was probably a positive. Yeah, definitely. So I, I that's all I'm saying is it's it's how you react to the situation. Don't be put off when things necessarily go wrong. Don't try and do too much at once. It's about you and the kids Keep. It relatively simple have a bit of a backup plan for stuff like that in your head of OK, what if this doesn't go wrong? Because like when I had like I said before, when I had that lesson that I did on a that I needed a projector for, I planned the entire lesson around this projector working all these little bits of paper and stuff I was going to put on it and I just had no idea what to do when the projector didn't work. It wasn't I loved how we both had an experience of the like the big bit of temp in the room not working. I just didn't know what to do. I literally didn't know what to do.

37:05 And that threw me off and I didn't get the job Like and I because I'd overplay. I'd spent so much time thinking about precisely this like perfect play in my head of what this lesson was going to be. Never once did I think about how I'd adapt to the kids, how I'd approach certain things. It was just all to me about the resourcing and actually that was the wrong way around. Absolutely for sure. Good question. OK, let's finish off. Go on. One last question all. Right. Do you want to read it? Or I go when you go. OK, thank you. Quick maths question here and whilst you're on the subject of maths, you can book a free demo now for Mathsu helping arithmetic fluency in your school. Down below there's a link, we'll show it to you for nothing. Book a time and we'll see how we can help your school improve their arithmetic fluency. That's good, right? That was all right. Yeah. Fluent keep working. It was it a fluent 1?

37:46 It was quite fluent fluid. Maths question What do you make of maths? I'm joking. What do you make of wreck, Wreck, wreck, wreck, wreck, wreck, Wreck, Wreck, wreck, wreck, Wrecker, Wrecker, Wrecker, wrecker a wreck, a wreck, a red neck, a wreck, a red neck, a wreck, a What do you make of the wreck and a wreck? I can't make a head and or tail of them. You're right, I'm just. A broken record. I got like stuck in a little wreck. Eminem over here. What? What's the? Wreck and wreck, cable wreck. They are those maths, maths good they have right? OK, basically 5 red beads, 5 white beads side by side, 2 layers. So there's 20 beads all together on high red wooden. Frame. Wooden frame. Like an Abacus, almost. Yeah, very, very sort of similar. I personally have never used them, but I do think it's because I see them generally as something for like much, much lower down. That's all for early numbers since. So like I imagine they're used a lot in reception in year 1, maybe even year 2 as well.

38:39 And that should probably be used more probably. Yeah, it's a really interesting question because I think there's lots of manipulatives from apps out there that have a lot of overlap in terms of what they're used for. Like you think of like A10 frame, right? I think of A10 frame and reckon Rex, I'm like, OK, they're both kind of there for number sense. Like number monster 10 is like a huge thing they're used for. Do I think you're a bad teacher if you only use one of them? No. Do I think it's it's might be good to use both? Yes, but like it's a small thing. So I don't think automatically if someone says what do you make of them? I can't make head or tail. I don't think that makes you a bad teacher because you're probably you're probably it's not like you're not addressing number bonds at all or you're not addressing how near double S. So reckon Rex are really good for things like because it's 5:00 and 5:00 sabotizing so we can recognise 5 quite quickly. If you have 5 Reds and 1 white one, we can see that 6 and you can make the .1 more than 5 is 6. If on both rows you have 5 and 1, five and one, you can very quickly be like, OK, two sixes.

39:34 How does that make 12? Well, it's two fives, which we know makes 10 one and one makes 12. And you can really break down that like early, early number sense. And it's fantastic for foundations, right? But you can do that with other, other things as well. I always think of a really good comparison quiz and air rods. That was something that I know when we trained we were like we were sold down. This thing of like quiz and air rods are the best. You could do everything with a quiz and air. Everything look at the I can do ratio in year 6 all the way down to number bonds in year 1. And it was like, Oh my God. It's the best thing ever. And really I used them a few times like I didn't, I didn't use them religiously like I thought I was going to because actually I found other resources that were doing the same. I was getting the same effect out of them. I just preferred using them.

40:14 So I think my summary here, and I'll let you come in at some point is that what do I make of them? I think they're a really, really good resource. And I do think you, if you're using them, you have to use them a lot to get like a really good bit of learning out of it. And if you're not using them, it's not a problem because you're probably doing it with something else. If you're using quiz an air or or what they called the holes, I can't think, Oh my God, why? Can't I let you believe? I think we struggle. Oh my God, why can't I think what I called? No, no new new. Macon. Oh my. God. I could not think of that word. Reckon Rex is like taking over my brain. You can use new Macon. Reckon, reckon, reckon. Counters where you flip over 10 frames, numicon, all this stuff is all really good. But.

40:55 I do generally find that teachers will stick to 1 and they'll be like, I'm going to really use this in detail and the kids can get used to this conceptually. Is that good practise? Help me. I, I think it's good practise to dive into a resource. I think it's bad practise to superficially use 5 resources. Like if you use or if you use, you've got Recon out once a month and you've got the Numicon out once a month and the Quizenaire out once a month. I'm like, I don't think that's good practise. I think it's better practise to really get into one and use that resource thoroughly. Doesn't mean you can't use others, but use at least one of them thoroughly. Absolutely. And I think you've summed that up nicely where the issue isn't, you know, you're not using wreck and wreck. So like, what on earth can you do? The issue? The the issue is are you're not using any resources at all to visualise number or understand them. But like, if you're doing it, you can do it in lots of ways. So if you can't make head in the tail, then fine. Do you know what I actually think using a wreck and wreck without training right?

41:48 He's weirdly hearing you say it properly. Or no, you're still not saying it properly. Am I not? Wreck and wreck. Wreck and wreck and wreck. You know you. I think using one of them without training or understanding it properly is worse than not using it at all. Yeah, almost definitely. So if you don't make head in the tail of it, don't use it. A bit of training, watch a video. Yeah, a bit of CPD. Plenty of YouTube videos by the way if you just literally. Search top dog tutoring loads don't think we. Got on on that one we. Were in school the other day and someone goes. My son loves your videos. But yeah. Oh I agree though, training is very important. If you just get it out and guess how to use it, you're probably not using it to its fullest. No for sure for. Sure, good. Always love a maths question and that's for sure, Hayden. Very quickly, before we move on to the last question, what's your favourite maths manipulative? Place value counters. I just use them so much interesting. Just love them, you Deans.

42:33 They oh. Can I change my heart? No, too late. I want Deans. I like them to all be the same size, even though they're different. It's hard to Deans. Deans are #1 can't change it. No. All right, fair enough. You can't change it. I'm just. I'm slightly more advanced than you. That's. You know it's also good as. Well, yeah, fine, I'll say that I love using Deans all the way through and when in year 4 you start doing temps and hundreds Deans are so good because the 100 what becomes one? Yeah, yeah. Because you've done it only, I mean, if you've done Deans for so long, can the kids really wrap their head around the fact that that's like, not just 100? Anymore not using it superficially. Exactly. You've got to do it all the time and but as soon as you get that 100 block out, not only is it great for decimals, even before that, it's great for number bonds to 100. Yeah. So 43 plus what is 100?

43:14 Get 100 block Dean in front of the kids, give them loads of 10's and ones getting to build 43 and then count what's left. Count in 10s, count in one. So good, so good. Right. Last question. This is about behaviour charts. So let me just give you this very quickly. What do we feel about using behaviour charts in class? My school is implementing 1 and I feel like the I'm the only one that's against it by maybe one other member of SLT, but we're going along with it anyway. I was running off the names to children it wouldn't work with and then a colleague said well what would you do instead? I don't actually have a counter argument, but I just feel like it's not good. Yeah, this is interesting. Me and you have spent our whole careers like not debating, but just like maybe bickering slightly about whether we should include behaviour charts. I kind of want to go to you first, right, Because I'm thinking about this.

43:58 Do you do you think behaviour charts are generally not good like we have at the front and it's just some sort of like table to follow and kids names go up or whatever. Like what's your opinion generally on behaviour charts? Negative behaviour charts can get in the bin, right? That's my opinion yeah, I I think actively we shouldn't do that. I have used in my career constantly positive praise, right, positive affirmation and that can be public displays of that as well. Even with a name on the board can be a huge carrot for a child to work hard, right. I understand even there'll be some people who go to the INF degree there and say well in doing a +1 you're implementing that. Everyone else is implying everyone else is negative.

44:39 I don't think it works like that, like. There's a neutral. Ground surely I think so in terms of I'm my my in my practise and I was always was very positive and praising people and I I liked, you know, praising people for doing the right thing. That seemed to work for me and my class and the other children who weren't necessarily paving well then. Wanted to, but the schools we worked in though did have like a behaviour, some sort of behaviour system at least where there was some sort of negativity in terms of names on boards or yellow cards or ticks or whatever like. Nonsense, though, they don't. You did use them though, didn't? You. They don't? Well, eventually, no. Right. Genuinely. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, honestly. But eventually, no, I just didn't. Do that. OK, that's interesting. I just, I didn't know that because obviously I know we worked in the schools. I'm like, I know they exist. So it's all right. I'm not a teacher there anymore.

45:20 I, I, this is maybe where people call me up for being hypocrite because I do think consistency is really important. But, you know, we didn't have to like names on the board. I just didn't like personally. So it just got to the point in my career where I thought, I think I can still implement the behaviour policy and follow through of warnings that can be verbal and individual and talk to the kids and then if they're disrupting the class, they get sent out of the room. Yeah, I get the idea of it being on the board was always that it's like a very visual marker for the child and they can see their names there and it's a reminder to them constantly. I just personally felt that I knew my class well enough to know children who needed that reminder, and I would just remind them personally and make sure that they were behaving.

46:02 I didn't see it as a net game for my kids, right? Everything I choose to do always with my classes because I think it's better for the kids or not sure. That's always where it comes from. And it's not like, well, you know, that guy Dylan doesn't believe in behaviour charts, so he doesn't do it. It's like, well, no, I don't. I don't like behaviour charts because I know it doesn't have a positive impact on my class. It always comes stems from that. And that's the important thing. I'd say I don't personally like negative behaviour charts on the wall. I don't like it. Well, the first school is interesting because the first school we worked at when we started there very much had a pretty standard like names on board sort of thing for like good things, but also for if you want a warning, right? And it was just very much you just write the name on the board next to a certain thing. And I remember because after a while we got told to stop doing that.

46:47 And I remember thinking, why? Why stop doing this? It's useful to know like for me even to keep track of like, who's on the warning. So I had a particularly naughty class and like 5 or 6 kids that would constantly be doing the wrong thing and. They're constantly on the board, right? Yeah, constantly on. The board? Well, that's the point of. Being on the board, I agree now, like in retrospect, but I remember at the time they were saying psychologically it's a net loss. They were like, there is actually no, like there's no actual net win to having their names on the board all the time. And I was like, Oh yeah, I was just so woke, so woke. I remember literally thinking, this is so like, this is ridiculous. It's gone too far. But I don't know, you know, I still, there's still a part of me where I'm like, is it a bit over the top? Like is it really that bad to have a kid's name on the board? Like if it helps me keep track of. Write down that and. Some kids, some kids do react to that.

47:29 I think, oh God, fine, I don't want my name on there. Fine. And if some kids react to it, then why not? Why not do it with that kid? Yeah, well, that kids react to it, right? And that's, that's what I, that's what I mean. So I what do you value more? And I value consistency more. So I consistently didn't do it because I, you know, I, I, it's always about as it's not a 0 sum game, there's going to be negatives and positives and you have to decide which one's best for your class, right? And I just found personally that from my career I did it for however long it didn't. It wasn't really a good thing to constantly use my board as a public display of good and bad behaviour. Like shame. Yeah. I didn't like it. I didn't like it because it kind of equated behaviour as well because you had to be consistent. So if someone shouted out, they put their name on the board and then someone else shouted out and their name didn't go on the board because you went well, actually I know what you're shouting out because you're over stimulated. You've got, I understand it's part of your, you know, your EHCP.

48:21 Or you just missed it but you're not perfect. Exactly, whatever it might be. And then there's a sense of injustice suddenly in the class that I've created for doing this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, you have to be so on it and perfect if you're going to have that as your gold standard. And I felt like I personally wasn't living up to that and it was just causing more division in my class. And behaviour through other systemic, consistent ways could still be controlled. And it didn't necessarily mean there was a behaviour chart in. The wall. What do you think about individual behaviour charts? Like when children, maybe that behaviour is particularly like noted as particularly poor and sometimes people have like their own little child on their table. It's just for them and like or or maybe they have to do like a report. I mean, like secondary school is not quite common with that where it's like you're on report now kid, because you've been naughty. You've got to get a little stamp in your thing every day to show that you've been behaving right.

49:04 What do you think about those kind of individual systems? Quick story on that my class was put on report in in in secondary school class report my entire class. That's like that's level bad. Because it was like the class were awful and they wanted to choose someone sensible to carry the report card around. Or was it? Who do you think they chose it? They chose me, right? So I had a report card in my blazer. I went to my nan's after school. My mum came to pick me up, pick my blazer up and oh, what's this pink slip in your in your pocket? No saw. Thought I was on report. You got in trouble. So I got it. I got bollocked by my mum. Well, upset because I was like, they chose me. Yeah, I know. I'm looking. I'll look. After you. Ironically, I'm the only good one. Yeah, literally. So I had it for the whole class. Yeah, and I was the pink report card and my mum went mental and I was like, I like mid man. I was like, I need to wait for you to finish to try to explain. This Yeah, it's not actually me, mum, yeah, but it is my old class and I'm now the teacher's pet because I'm now like one of my.

49:57 My mum's bollocked me, my class hate me. Yeah, and I'm one goes. Here you go. Can you give us a good score, please? Yeah. So no, I don't think they work. And it's because of trauma. Yeah, fair enough though. Like that's a legit experience. But. The individual ones, right? And I'm gonna rock the boat here. Maybe. I probably taught in my 10 year career that at some point in my class in total, there's probably about 8 kids who are on a personal report. Yeah, maybe that's even. Maybe it's six. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, doesn't. Happen a lot. Doesn't happen a lot. Maybe one a year. Sometimes none. Right. And most of the time it did nothing. Yeah. Most of the time all it did was that I wrote down that they weren't behaving.

50:41 And then six weeks down the line, I was like, I'm still putting sad faces on this report because you're still not behaving because the report doesn't fix the reason you're misbehaving. You're not misbehaving because of affair of consequence. You've already had the consequence as well. So we need to be consistent and we need to make sure you're not getting what you you've done this, you can't get that. But that doesn't, that's not the end of the story. So we talked about a million times about how having a consequence that you follow for is really important because it will catch some kids and it'll and you have to be consistent. And it's not fair for them to not have consequence when they're mis paving and someone else isn't. It's not fair for that to be the same, even more so for the kids who are behaving because it's not fair for it to look like, well, what's the, what's the point? However, it doesn't automatically mean that it's going to fix behaviours.

51:26 We have to get to the underlying root of why behaviours are bad, and a report card won't fix that. For most kids, yeah, sure. For some kids it. Works, That's the thing, isn't it? Like I can think of kids. It's worth trying. I can think of kids where putting their name on the board absolutely worked and they behaved impeccably because they did not want their name on that board worked great for them. I can think of some kids who had a report card come to me every single day after every single lesson and we had to reflect on their lesson and that meant the world to them. And they and they absolutely improved over time. So to me, I'm sort of, I think of those wins. I'm like, if we took both of those things away, is it just a net loss? OK, but think about those kids, right? So for sure the individual report card I think is more acceptable because it's not a public shaming thing. It's an individual report card.

52:06 And actually it was quite nice to have those checkpoints throughout the day where you can talk to them, right? So I quite like that and I quite like that side effect of it. And it worked for some kids and it was great and I would never not try it. But for kids it doesn't work for very quick. I remember after two weeks one time I was like, cool, coming off this, this is not helping. It is actually not helping. If anything it's a hindrance because you're constantly forgetting or you don't have it or you've left it in another room on purpose and you just want to be a nuisance and get it and come back. It's not helping. So same with the board thing. If you think about any child ever where writing their name on the board has worked in a in a positive way and made them behave themselves, how many times in a year do those kids get their name on the board? Oh, still loads. Really. Yeah, yeah, yeah, loads.

52:46 Who? I think because it's always realistic. It's the same. It's the same truth, which is what I'm. Saying but then it works consistently because I've I've found that the more they're on the board the more desensitising it stops working. The ones I can think of who literally change their. Behaviour. Oh sorry, I was because the opposite. No, because it's the first time they've been on the board. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So my, my point is for the ones it for the ones the board thing worked for, right. Only it works once and they never do it again. So it becomes redundant when it because the names, these that go on the board all the time are the ones who don't give a crap and don't change their behaviour anymore. So it just becomes a wallpaper of the kids who are blast as naughty. They see their name out there. They're like, well, I do this every day anyway. What's? The point, Sure. No, I agree. I'm I I literally like when you said that I thought the other way around, which is what I was saying. Always on the Yeah, yeah, I think of those children, not the.

53:28 Ones the ones that the ones that public shaming works with, you're going to get one or two cases a year. It's where it actually is doing the job. Yeah, yeah. And realistically, there's more to take into account. I'm playing devil's advocate more than anything, by the way, because I actually do. I my overall opinion is I actually don't think they're good. Just touch feet there. Yeah, well, you're right. You OK? Feel a bit. Sick, I did. Just touch a little bit. A little bit sick? Maybe it's time to be wrapping this up here. Yeah, it is. But I'm, I'm, I feel like I've got to get to the bottom of this. I I've also had a parent come in before, not a few times where their child has gone home. They're so mortified that they were on the board this one time that actually it really affected the rest of that week and that that was not a net win, even though it did make them in the moment stop doing the thing they were doing. That was a bit silly because they absolutely did not want to get their name on the board.

54:13 It also ruined the rest of the week. They didn't want to come to school. So it's like that probably was not a net win to have that kid's name on the board, even though it stopped that way. If you looked at it contained in the lesson, great win, thumbs up. Really though, it wasn't because now that child was then terrified of the idea of their name being put on the board. So that definitely wasn't good. I think. I think, you know, the research generally points towards not doing that sort of thing, doesn't it? The research says things like having blanket policies like this, if, if someone has a rubbish morning at home that we have, we're not Privy to at all and that's affecting their behaviour. And now they just get tarnished as a naughty kid because actually they've just had a horrendous morning. They've had an argument with their mum, everyone's left the home crying. They've had a horrible disruptive morning. Probably shouldn't really be punishing that child. We should probably just be talking to them and actually helping them.

54:54 Like you said, addressing the root, the root problem. So there's loads and loads and loads of stuff. Ultimately that backs up not doing behaviour charts. I'm on this person's side, the person I wrote in of I think we probably should try and have those discussions. Maybe for them it's a case of actually go away and do the research. Then if you, if you feel like you've it's hard to counter, go and do the research. Bring it in and see what the research suggests instead and literally pitch that to your school and say, look, I don't think they're good for this, this, this reason. The research backs it up. Could we maybe try this really positive approach? So last thought is everyone else at that school a horrible, callous teacher who's bad and just doesn't care about? It no, of course not. Not at all, Not at all. It just doesn't work like that. Because I think you can listen to that conversation and think we're basically digging out people who do it. I did it in my. I did. It in my whole career. For nearly all of Yeah, like for most of it, I was doing this kind of thing.

55:36 I just, it can sometimes feel like the right thing to do. And it can superficially look like it's making a difference. And for some children, it will make a difference. And. And you want to be seen to be doing something for behaviour, especially if it's a tricky thing. And I've seen lots of schools who've turned behaviour around and have robust things where in every single classroom there's a chart that looks like this and it tells you the consequences of your actions and your positive part. And it clearly works for some schools in that regard, right. But just you're I'd have an opinion and my opinion is in general that I don't quite like them. I think they're a net loss, I would say. Yeah, sure. Personally, that's fair enough. Fair enough. But I don't hate you if you do it. I appreciate you so much. I think you're doing a great job. And it's really hard. Behaviour's not easy, and the more help you can get, the better craft. Yeah.

56:18 And like you said, every school's different anyway, so you just need to have different approaches. Definitely. Let's finish there with the wreck, the wreck, the wreck, and the wreck. If you enjoyed this wreck and wreck episode, please do like follow share with a friend rate. How are you still so bad at that little call to action? How was that bad? Like follow share rate. What? What else? Sorry, I just watched you realise that those are the four things. Ready. No. No. Ready. This is what I'd say. Ready. Yeah. Help us out, please. Forsake. That's how you do it, Yeah. Put in the heart string. Yeah, yeah. And also I'll do what you did earlier, shall I? And take a pick out of you now, make sure to book a maths demo for to help your arithmetic fluency in your school.

56:59 Because if you book a maths demo, you can help your arithmetic fluency in your school. That's what he did earlier, wasn't it? I didn't take the mic when he said that same thing twice. Double down, double down, double, double, double, double down. Reckon, reckon the wreck. Is worth saying though, do book mass demo for your school if you want to help arithmetic fluency. And if you don't, then clearly you don't care about your kids. Wow, I hope you heard that lovely sound of Dylan smacking his iPad into the mic. Bye. See you.