196. Q&A: Unannounced Learning Stalks, Parent Emails & Are SATs Pointless?

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Hello everyone, Welcome back to
another episode of TC Repeat.

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My name is Dylan and my name's
Hayden, and we're back with

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another question and answer.
You lovely listeners have been

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writing in to us.
You can join our WhatsApp

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community down in the
description below.

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Let's get cracking.
First one, Hayden.

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Go on.
Oh, you're so kind.

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He's such a sweetie.
I'm so nice.

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Following on from a recent video
you did about learning specific

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facts being pointless, what what
room do you think there is for

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children memorising facts at
all?

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Where is the line?
Is it all completely pointless

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now that there is so much
information at our fingertips,

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or is there still a case for
remembering things?

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Yes, of course there is.
That's not what I meant.

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We're seeing a lot.
Maybe it's because it kind of

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highlights maybe I'm being quite
divisive sometimes when I do

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these maybe or a little bit.
What's the word provocative?

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Perhaps because like, I, I feel
like it's quite clear that's not

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what I meant.
Like I didn't remotely say let's

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not learn anything absolutely
ever.

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My actual wording was specific
facts.

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And my example was, for example,
in history.

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Do I really, really care if at
the end of a unit, a child can't

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tell me the exact year that
Tutankhamun's tomb was

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discovered?
Right.

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And my point there is I think
that kind of level of we must

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learn all of the facts and the
things.

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And then next lesson, I'm going
to start with a bit of a recap

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on the exact facts and see if
you remember them or not.

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It's a nice thing to do.
But like then then I've heard of

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schools being told check the
gaps for those mini retrieval

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tests and make sure you fill
them.

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No, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No.

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What a waste of time.
I don't care.

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No, it's not.
It's not remotely necessary.

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So I'm just trying to clarify
where I was.

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There are some specific facts
that, because of the advent, I

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think, and the dawn of more
technology than ever before,

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become less important for
children.

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Do you find it particularly
weird, like in that situation

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you just gave there over
history, for example, Is it

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because there are so many facts
about everything?

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Yeah, maybe that it's weird to
put on a pedestal to that to the

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NTH degree of light to the point
we have to then do retrieval

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tasks the next day to make sure
they remembered these strange

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subset are very specific facts.
Is that is that the reason that

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you find it?
Essentially, yeah, I think maybe

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it was.
It's rooting the fact I did a

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history degree and for a long
time people were half joking and

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half serious when they would ask
me what happened in like 1347.

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I'm like, well, I actually don't
know.

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This isn't the the the actual,
you know, what skills require

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someone to be a good historian
aren't rooted in knowing all the

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facts, but it's a good thing to
know all your facts.

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It's important.
I listen to the rest is history

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podcast.
Dominic Sambrook and Tom Holland

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know their facts, right?
They know them and it's really

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helpful when they're putting
together this kind of narrative

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and this story.
It helps that they have it off

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the top of the head because it
makes the presentation better.

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Of course it does.
And it makes like what you're

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talking about.
It's rooted more in that you

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know what's going on.
So then you're going to

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interpret it maybe, and you have
you understand where the facts

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came from, etcetera.
So I'm not saying it's a bad

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thing, but yeah, I agree.
It's like we've decided where

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this arbitrary line is, where it
matters what individual facts,

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you know, And it just happens to
be the facts that I've chosen

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for this lesson.
I could have chosen 10 more

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facts.
Do you know what I mean?

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I could have chosen the fact.
Where did Lord Carnarvon travel

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from when he went to Egypt to
find this?

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Like where did his money come
from?

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Like, OK, it's, it's some like
at some point it doesn't matter

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anymore.
But I, I do genuinely also think

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that when it comes to knowing
facts, facts and knowing things,

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then yeah, of course it's still
a good thing to do.

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And even within history, we
still have to understand

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chronology.
I think children should still

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understand the order in which
things happen and why there's a

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cause and effect.
Maybe that's gone through

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history and and in different
interpretations of what have

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happened and when the fact
something happened before

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something else is clearly
important.

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That's that that that you are
required to understand that in

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order to have a good
chronological base and a good

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understanding of why things
happened.

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So I'm not I'm not against
knowing facts.

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I was very specifically talking
about really specific intricate

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facts that at the end of the
unit.

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I don't necessarily think I
failed as a teacher if every

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child doesn't remember.
Yeah, but I think there's some

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more broader things and and
there's a whole discussion we

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can have about working memory,
right.

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And I know we've had this before
where we've talked about how if

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you learn certain things, that
could be a process in maths.

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But also I'm thinking about
mathics.

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It's where, you know, our our
passion lies.

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You need to know things.
Yeah.

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You need children need to know.
To make the connections.

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There, there is 10 millimetres
in a centimetre, yeah, you need

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to know that there are 10,
sorry, 100 centimetres in a

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metre.
And we can come up with

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different ways of children
working out and why and what

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milli means.
And there's 1000 in a metre or

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what centi means that you can
kind of work out, but you still

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need to know what senti means.
But at some point it requires

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you to understand a fact, which
then if you know these facts,

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think about times tables,
division facts, all this kind of

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stuff, number bonds.
We want children to know them as

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facts, to record them because it
frees up your working memory.

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So I don't think there's a
contradiction here.

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I think there's different levels
of facts and what we can say is

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important for children to
understand.

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Sure.
I guess the difference is I'm

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really thinking more deep about
this now because I definitely

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used to fall into the trap of
being like, oh, in the modern

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day, like we've got Google at
our fingertips.

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We don't need to to learn
anything.

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We can just find out.
But you're right though, because

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we gave the analogy even about
this is still quite niche.

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But even in the example of the
rest is history, imagine,

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imagine if they didn't know
anything, but they were just

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really good historians.
They're really good skill set,

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but they didn't remember any
facts ever.

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Like it would be boring because
they'd be constantly looking

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things up and they wouldn't be
able to innately make those

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connections and links through
their vast understanding of

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history.
Like that's obviously important,

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but in maths like the same so
that the argument I was thinking

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of in my head regarding history
was I have a problem.

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I think you're, I think it's
what you're trying to say.

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I have a problem with the fact
that we pick a a very specific

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subset of facts and we determine
their progress and attainment

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based on those exact facts, when
really we should just be saying

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it.
Having understanding things and

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having facts and knowledge is
good.

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But I don't want to be in a
system where that child who's

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learned 57 facts about ancient
Greece, but happened to be none

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of the 12 facts that we learn in
our lesson is now determined

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worse at the child that just
learn those 12 facts.

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Like, I don't like the fact that
that can exist, which is

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basically what's happening,
right?

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Whereas in maths, I don't think
it's quite the same because the

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curriculum, so it's so broken
down and structured where it's

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sort of like there kind of is a
specific subset of facts that

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you need to learn.
And they and they are, they are

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important.
And there probably are some more

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fringe facts you can learn as
well that OK, might fall into

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analogy of or you're not going
to get extra Marks and you're a

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test that determines your
attainment.

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But there is there is a really
core set of facts.

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You do, you do just need to know
what is how to define a square,

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how many sides are in a pen?
Yeah, exactly.

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You do kind of have to be able
to do those things.

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You need to know what perimeter
means.

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Yeah.
But you just have to, yeah.

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And I still do think there's a
grey line, right?

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There is a grey line eventually,
like you could start to argue

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things like, you know, and I
think at what age as well.

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That's also important, like days
of the week, clearly important

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to know, right.
How many hours are in a day?

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Clearly important to know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Is it vital that children
understand what pie is like?

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But you, you could.
My point is you can start to

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argue that it may be stretching
into the point of, well, well, I

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don't think you need to know
that in order to have a good

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base understanding of maths.
But you do need to have a good

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understanding of π if you want
to go into that field of

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learning about circles, if you
want to go into that field of

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solving problems in that area.
So I think it's the same of

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history, right?
I think if you're going to

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become a specialist when you're
like, if it becomes your job

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that you're a, you're an ancient
Greece specialist.

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Yeah.
Actually, do you know what you

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do need to know those facts at
that point.

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So what I'm saying is just
stripping it back to the context

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of being in a classroom with
Year 4 doing a history lesson.

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We could have chosen a number of
different points in history,

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right?
Yeah.

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We we could have chosen a
different point in history.

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The curriculum could have said
actually learn about this time

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and children would learn only
facts about that.

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And in that scenario, they
wouldn't know any facts about

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ancient Greece.
We could still determine that

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they're good historians though,
couldn't we?

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And I think that goes to show
that it's not necessarily about

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the facts you remember and the
specific things that determine

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how good a historian you are.
It's the things we can do cross

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topic.
So whether I'm doing, you know,

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ancient, you know, ancient China
or whether I'm doing ancient

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Greece or whether I'm doing is
something from South America or

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I'm doing World War 2.
The specific facts themselves I

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don't think necessarily mean
that and a better historian, but

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I could absolutely draw lines
across them.

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All of do you understand how
civilization came about?

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Do you understand cause and
effect in that situation?

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Do you know the chronology of
that time?

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Do you know the social factors,
what's going on with people at

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home when war was raging?
Do you know about invasion?

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Do you know about the borders
changing?

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All of those things can be
crossed no matter what you do in

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history.
That I think I'm much more of a

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good indication of whether a
child is better at history or

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not than simply saying to them,
oh, OK, actually, what year did

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that happen?
I think it's just not is

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important.
And I think there's other ways

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that are still vital.
Obviously, we can still judge

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children.
And when I say judge them, I

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mean we can see how much
historical skill they've picked

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up.
Yeah, I personally think without

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being hung up on, well, retrieve
this fact, please.

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I just don't think it's
important.

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Yeah, I agree.
I agree.

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I think that's it, isn't it?
It's not all or nothing in any

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of these situations.
The facts are obviously

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important.
If we're measuring the

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attainment of children in
history, it's going to be based

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on those skills.
And ultimately, like, I actually

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do think that's what the
curriculum is aimed to do.

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Yeah.
Yeah.

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Like when you when you actually
read the curriculum for history.

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It doesn't say learn when
Tutankhamun's school was

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discovered, does it?
Exactly.

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It doesn't say all four lines of
the curriculum, right?

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But and even when we had Ofsted
and they looked into history, it

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was very much about the skills.
That's what they were interested

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00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,360
in innately.
So yeah, it's just a case of if

230
00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,280
schools are a bit, they can
become a bit too obsessed.

231
00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,160
I think of the facts as if like
that's the be on end or not.

232
00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,880
The skills like, yeah, they're
important, but ultimately it's

233
00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,000
for this wider lens that you
talked about. 100% And I think

234
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,480
just one thing to say absolutely
it's this is not us saying that

235
00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:20,960
it's not a thing that if you
learn facts, your working memory

236
00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,080
is is increased.
OK.

237
00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,080
I think that the comparison with
different subjects is different

238
00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,720
Now I think with maths, if you
have a really good understanding

239
00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:30,760
of the process and what's going
on, that frees up your working

240
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:31,840
memory.
If you have a really good

241
00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,440
understanding of your time
stable facts, you can focus more

242
00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,960
of your attention on actually
solving that equivalent fraction

243
00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,440
question because you're not
thinking how do I times by 4,

244
00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,720
you just know it.
So there is definitely a benefit

245
00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,320
to knowing facts in certain
situations.

246
00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,200
I just think that we can calm
down a bit and the situation

247
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,000
that we're in depends on how
important that fact is. 100%

248
00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:50,640
Nice one let's go to the next
one.

249
00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,240
I've got a parent who emails me
at at 10:00 PM most nights and

250
00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,440
expects a reply before school
the next morning.

251
00:09:56,560 --> 00:09:58,480
Sounds like you got a bit of a
tough mum and dad.

252
00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,600
You're a grown adult, why are
your parents messing you?

253
00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,800
That is banter that is funny.
My SOT have basically told me

254
00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,400
just to manage the relationship.
What would you actually do?

255
00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:12,240
I mean in a way I'd do that and
my managing the relationship

256
00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,280
would be not replying at any
time outside of work hours.

257
00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,560
And then I'd tell my SOT cheers
for that advice, here's what

258
00:10:17,560 --> 00:10:20,560
I've done, I've managed it.
And if they don't like that?

259
00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:23,680
Just a quick one.
I've had that mum call back, you

260
00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:25,720
know, you mentioned the other
day you asked what should I do

261
00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,360
and I said you should manage a
relationship or they have

262
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,120
messaged me and said that you're
not actually replying to them

263
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,480
within 12 hours.
Well, they're messaging me at

264
00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,800
10:00 PM, mate.
But did you manage that

265
00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:38,600
relationship?
Yeah, yeah, I did manage it.

266
00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,160
I I told them I'm not gonna
reply outside of work hours.

267
00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:43,040
It's funny, 'cause you didn't
ask me for anymore.

268
00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,440
You don't give me any advice, so
I presumed that you'd be OK with

269
00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:46,800
me sorting this situation
myself.

270
00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,320
Yeah, what I kind of hoped would
happen there if I gave you some

271
00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,880
vague kind of just mersh that
something doesn't really make

272
00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:54,280
any sense.
I was kind of hoping you would

273
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,200
just do all the stuff I can't
actually ask you to do, which is

274
00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,000
to work outside of those.
Times so I.

275
00:10:58,320 --> 00:10:59,800
Was kind of hoping that I could
exploit you.

276
00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,520
Why, why, Why did you not let me
exploit you?

277
00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:04,880
I see, I see.
So I read it in the lines here.

278
00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:06,400
When you said manage the
relationship, what you were

279
00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:08,160
saying to me was just reply to
the do.

280
00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,160
Everything that I can't actually
tell you to do just against your

281
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,360
contract, but I fully expect you
to just to be replying.

282
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:13,520
OK, we're now telling me to do
that, aren't.

283
00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,880
You No, no, I'm saying no, I'm.
But it's hypothetical, isn't it?

284
00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,800
Layers of hypothetically right
here, yeah, I just, yeah.

285
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,600
But OK, OK, OK.
I'm just gonna narrow it back

286
00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,680
down again and we can joke and
laugh about how it's just

287
00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:28,440
absolutely ridiculous what we're
talking about here.

288
00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,440
Obviously you shouldn't be OK,
but if your SLT do genuinely

289
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:32,800
just expect you to just deal
with it.

290
00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,200
Yeah.
And that does happen.

291
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,880
They're like, Oh yeah, well,
kind of just got to do it.

292
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,840
Yeah.
My advice is don't just don't do

293
00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:42,880
it.
And, and we've said this a

294
00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:44,640
million times, we're gonna risk
repeating ourselves over and

295
00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:46,640
over again.
If you're in that situation,

296
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,400
don't bow to it because then it
becomes normal.

297
00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,440
Think about not only you, if
you're someone who, OK, here's

298
00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,640
here's, here's the crux of it.
If you're someone who can't put

299
00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,280
yourself on a pedestal and and
respect yourself enough to say

300
00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,960
no to that in terms of you're
thinking, oh, I'll just do it,

301
00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:03,560
It's only me.
Yeah, it's only me.

302
00:12:03,560 --> 00:12:05,840
But this is see a lot of this in
teaching where it's like, oh,

303
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:06,920
I'll do that.
It's just me.

304
00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:08,960
But even they'll fight for other
people as well.

305
00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:09,960
And they'll be like, no, it's
not fair.

306
00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:11,160
It's not fair.
I'll do it, I'll do it.

307
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:12,720
Yeah.
Think to yourself then in this

308
00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,840
situation, if that's you, and
you'll just justify yourself

309
00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:16,800
doing this because you're
thinking, oh, it's just me.

310
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,040
Think about how it's going to
have the effect on the next

311
00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:20,960
person this happens to.
Because the next person this

312
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,120
happens to SLT will not only
just be able to say, manage your

313
00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,520
relationship, they'll say, oh,
yeah, this happens quite a bit,

314
00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,040
actually.
And they just reply, yeah.

315
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,000
So you become the enabler in a
way.

316
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:29,600
Yeah.
So true.

317
00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,760
If you're, if you're not, if
you're not able to put yourself

318
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,680
in a pedestal for whatever
reason, it might be justified or

319
00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:37,120
not to think I'm going to look
after myself and say no.

320
00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:39,840
Now let's put it in the lens of
how it might affect other

321
00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:41,080
people.
Yeah, I'm actually in the next

322
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,200
class teacher exactly that.
They're doing the same thing

323
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:44,840
next year, right?
Or the last teacher applied

324
00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:46,760
whenever this teacher is
rubbish, going straight to the

325
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,080
head teacher.
The last teacher did all these

326
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,480
things, it becomes a new normal
and it was already absurd.

327
00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:53,320
And this teacher, now I have to
wait 24 hours, sometimes 48

328
00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,240
hours to get a reply and it's
always within school time.

329
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,400
I'm at work.
Exactly, exactly.

330
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,720
So that one to me just, it just
strikes me as I think in

331
00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,880
general, what do you think about
schools that give out work

332
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:08,480
e-mail addresses like on their
website?

333
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,680
And like, it's because obviously
we worked in school that did

334
00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:12,080
both.
It's just for people listening.

335
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,720
And it does seem like a bit of a
split where if you're in a

336
00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,400
school where your e-mail address
is just public knowledge, it's

337
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,200
on the website.
Parents can just e-mail you

338
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,200
directly.
A lot of teachers have heard me

339
00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,480
say, well, in my most recent
school that that didn't happen.

340
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,120
Everything came through the
office, everything came through

341
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:29,520
SLT.
And they're like shocked.

342
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:31,240
They're like, what?
How do you do this?

343
00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,160
And we're like, we don't.
And they can't fathom that

344
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,600
there's a world where you don't
have to do.

345
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,640
That I couldn't, to be fair when
we started because obviously I'd

346
00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:39,760
come from a school where they
have Direct Line team and we

347
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:40,880
were getting emailed all the
time.

348
00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,320
I think there's a middle ground.
I used to be very, I think I

349
00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,600
used to be quite quick to say or
the way our new school does it

350
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,120
is is the best and only way to
do it.

351
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:49,880
Like no school ever should be
given out direct emails.

352
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,440
And I do genuinely think that's
the case probably for most

353
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,800
schools.
There is probably a middle

354
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,400
ground where a school that's
well run and well managed, with

355
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,720
really clear policies and strict
boundaries in place, could have

356
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,600
a system where parents and
teachers can e-mail directly and

357
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:07,920
it doesn't actually become.
Horribly.

358
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:08,880
Well, that looks like a.
Burden.

359
00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,400
I think it would just have to be
some sort of either some really

360
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,280
strict policies towards the
parents that are upheld in terms

361
00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:19,120
of you will not get a reply
between certain hours or you

362
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,000
have to, you know you can expect
to wait at least 48 hours before

363
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:23,280
you get a reply.
You still got a replacement.

364
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,160
At some point, yeah, of course
you can of course, of course and

365
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,360
it will have to be done in in
school time because I because

366
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,280
the way I imagine it is those
but.

367
00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:31,640
It's just a job you're adding
on, it doesn't matter when it

368
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,040
happens.
It's true, but someone's going

369
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:34,440
to do it.
It's a job that someone's going

370
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,280
to take on.
Either the SLT are forgoing some

371
00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,480
part of their role and taking on
all of the burden of all their

372
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,920
teachers, or the teachers are
taking on the individual burdens

373
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:43,840
themselves, or the office are
taking on the entire burden.

374
00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:45,960
All those conversations are just
pushed to conversations you have

375
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:47,320
at the end of the day anyway,
with parents at the.

376
00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:48,200
Door.
Yeah, that's a good point.

377
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:49,440
So it's like it's going to
happen anyway.

378
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,720
Did you not find though with
that policy where parents didn't

379
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,400
have the e-mail, what it ended
up doing was actually just

380
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:56,640
reduced them to the sheer
number.

381
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:58,960
So it's not a case of
necessarily like think of all

382
00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,240
the emails individual staff
would have got and now my SRT

383
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,200
has got them all.
Actually, I think it reduced it

384
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,520
massively.
I still think SRT and the office

385
00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,480
staff and our old absorbed way
more than we thought and then

386
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,640
kind of sorted it.
But their, their whole policy

387
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,200
was if they can nip it in the
bud, like, OK, 90% of these

388
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:14,720
things aren't needed for the
class Teacher.

389
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,400
This is just someone asking what
do we wear shorts tomorrow?

390
00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,400
I'm sorry, as a teacher, don't
message me now, don't e-mail me.

391
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:21,320
I don't care if there's a
policy.

392
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:22,480
I don't need to reply in two
days.

393
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,320
You shouldn't be in my inbox.
It's pointless.

394
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,840
So it kind of that that all your
points were really valid.

395
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,240
Absolutely.
And I think someone does have to

396
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,800
take on the burden at some point
and we're just sharing it

397
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,000
around.
But I do think that burden is

398
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,720
reduced and I do also think that
it it kind of, it allowed our

399
00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,600
leadership actually, if
anything, they had a really good

400
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,360
relationship with parents in
high school, didn't they?

401
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,160
It was really strong and I think
that might be why.

402
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:45,640
You're right, actually.
And that's, that's something

403
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,000
that I don't take into account
as much as I should, which is

404
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,000
how many of the emails that went
through the first layer SLT and

405
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,440
things didn't actually make it
to us anyway.

406
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,560
Because my point before that was
going to be the counter argument

407
00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,200
is there's just two steps now.
The e-mail goes to the office

408
00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:58,280
and then they forward it to me
anyway.

409
00:15:58,360 --> 00:15:59,360
They might as well just emailed
me.

410
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,120
But you're right, I definitely
definitely got significantly

411
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,800
fewer emails to me because
things were just absorbed and

412
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,160
sorted by SLT by the office.
I would, I would genuinely say

413
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:09,640
it'd be interesting.
You're obviously higher up in

414
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:10,720
the school.
Maybe I don't know if it's more

415
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,960
or less actually, you know, it
seemed to me we were in a Junior

416
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:14,920
School of Year 3.
When I was in year 3.

417
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,080
I probably had the most
interaction with parents I've

418
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:18,640
ever had because they were
joining our school, knew they

419
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,040
were young, there was more stuff
going on.

420
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:21,880
And I wonder if year six it dips
back in.

421
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:26,360
But when I was in year 4, I can
genuinely say now that in my,

422
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,800
let's just take my last year of
teaching, I reckon I had

423
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,000
probably.
And and this is not including

424
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,920
like the office messaging me,
forwarding me to say someone's

425
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:37,640
been picked up by someone else.
That's just nothing to me,

426
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:38,520
right.
That's like, yeah, that's just

427
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,520
information, an actual e-mail.
Yeah, it's just the information

428
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,440
that the the parent has emailed
the school and I need to know

429
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,960
who's picking the child up.
So I'm not counting that actual

430
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:50,000
emails to me as a teacher.
I reckon it was less than 5.

431
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,360
I was literally thinking like
under. 10 it's honestly like I

432
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,160
can really truly think of, I can
think of two and there's

433
00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:00,160
probably a couple more where it
was like, we've had this e-mail

434
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,080
from a parent have a read and it
was really something quite

435
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:04,680
specific and it was like,
actually, do you know what?

436
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:05,839
I should have received this
e-mail.

437
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,160
What I didn't need was what I
had in my old school, which was

438
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:10,560
people just thinking I was their
mate.

439
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,560
Yeah, like, like when's this
thing?

440
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,040
Sorry, did you do you think to
check the PDF that's on the

441
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:16,800
website before just emailing me?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

442
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:17,960
Because it'd be information
there.

443
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,760
That's so true.
Just became like a crux, became

444
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,359
like Google 2 point O might as
well have got an e-mail saying

445
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,560
when does Tesco open?
Oh, sorry, let me just double.

446
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,079
Just check.
I don't care.

447
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:27,319
Look, look, look at for
yourself.

448
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:29,080
There's a lot of nonsense that
they could have just found out

449
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:30,200
themselves.
Yeah, it's true.

450
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,640
I think back and it was a big
burden actually.

451
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,800
Yeah, amount of emails had to do
with and some of the sometimes

452
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,120
some parents we'll send an
essay.

453
00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:40,920
I know, I don't know what it is.
TLDR didn't we give me a summary

454
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:42,280
please?
So it's great about large

455
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,880
language models now straight in.
Can you summarise this please?

456
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:46,360
I'm not reading this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

457
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,880
As long as it's not got any
sensitive, of course.

458
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:51,680
I'm sorry.
This hypothetical question, this

459
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:53,840
hypothetical situation is me
having a safeguarding issue

460
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:56,600
hypothetical.
You're going to get fired from

461
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,400
your job, mate anyway, right?
We've we've diverged.

462
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:01,480
So yeah.
It was good though.

463
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,760
Yeah good question.
Next one our school does

464
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,400
learning walks without any
notice and then you get a two

465
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,680
line e-mail feedback the same
afternoon with no chance to

466
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,320
respond or discuss.
One week I got told my working

467
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,560
walls were too busy, the next
that they lacked evidence of

468
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:15,560
learning.
Classic.

469
00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:19,200
How is anyone supposed to win?
Why is feedback so poor?

470
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,720
Do these people go, do they get
training on how to do feedback

471
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,880
or do they just barge themselves
into positions of power and go,

472
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,520
wow, actually, I need to give
you some feedback now.

473
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,200
It's going to be the listing
because it's not even

474
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,240
consistent, complete and utter
nonsense.

475
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,440
I like learning walks, by the
way, Just saying out there, it's

476
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,200
probably an unpopular opinion.
I like learning walks, but it's

477
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,760
it's not what you might think in
your head straight away.

478
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,720
Yeah, because to some people you
say learning walk to me, I'll

479
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,560
just be like, cool, the head's
going around.

480
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:48,360
Yeah, nice one.
He's a nice bloke.

481
00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:50,040
He'll just come in.
That's that's a learning walk.

482
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:52,320
And other people think, you
know, four people in suits I've

483
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,600
never seen before.
I've been hired from Ox dead to

484
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,800
come in and actually walk all
over you, walk all over you.

485
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,800
It's just so I think there's a
way to do learning walks without

486
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,720
notice.
Like my deputy, our deputy head

487
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,240
and head teacher would just walk
in.

488
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,040
They wouldn't message us, but it
was normal and they weren't

489
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:08,800
judging and they just wanted to
look at the kids.

490
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:11,200
The amount of times I'd see them
walk in and they were just

491
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,080
honestly late.
They made the point of just

492
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,600
looking at the kids, looking at
the kids checking out.

493
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,080
Oh, your mum said this, by the
way, going through.

494
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:18,320
Oh, that's not good work.
Well done.

495
00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:19,600
Just watch through.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

496
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,680
And obviously I'm not stupid.
I know the back of the head.

497
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,560
They're think they're they're
seeing what's happening in the

498
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,040
lesson, but they're not said
they're staring at me with a

499
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,160
clipboard.
So learning what's about notice

500
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,120
depends on the situation and in
this situation, I think it's

501
00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:32,680
just nonsense.
Do.

502
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,320
You know what, that's the whole
time all I was thinking was but

503
00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:38,840
I hate the term learning more.
Does it just sound?

504
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,000
It just sounds so like, what's
the right word?

505
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,520
And the patronises are
obnoxious.

506
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,560
Obnoxious.
Maybe I'm just a learning walk.

507
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,560
Yeah, shut up.
You're the head teacher and your

508
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,880
job is to go around and check
the school's running.

509
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:52,560
It's just about it.
It's a.

510
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,320
Learning walk, not just what you
do.

511
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,080
Hey kid, we're going on a
learning journey.

512
00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:58,360
Like what?
A lesson.

513
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,520
Now what you're doing is you're
walking around the school

514
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,240
checking that we're all doing
our jobs properly and the kids

515
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,280
are behaving.
Just say it for what it is.

516
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:05,640
But that's a lot more words than
learning.

517
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,280
Oh.
Yeah, I'm coming around today,

518
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,680
but don't even say anything.
Words don't say anything.

519
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:10,840
Words don't say anything.
They don't.

520
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,600
I'm doing my job in September.
I say everyone.

521
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,360
I'm the head teacher and I'm
going to do my job.

522
00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:16,960
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's what
happened here, yeah.

523
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:17,960
Gorgeous.
Don't even say learning more,

524
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:19,200
just.
I'll go to Lolly Box.

525
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,600
Much shorter, I guess.
Yeah, I hate it.

526
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,760
Yeah, I guess you're you are
definitely someone who when you

527
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,840
think of learning more, yeah,
you're absolutely thinking of

528
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,840
the worst version of that.
Right, not even necessarily.

529
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:30,880
I just don't like this.
I just honestly, I don't know

530
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:32,600
what it is.
I I know this is the pettiest

531
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,360
thing I've ever said, but
there's just something about the

532
00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:37,080
phrase when I hear someone
saying deadly serious or we're

533
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,640
doing, you're learning more
country, I'm going to shut up.

534
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:41,000
What would you say more?
Country.

535
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,600
I don't even know at this point.
I just, I just hate the phrase

536
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,400
we've LED.
Back I definitely said we're

537
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:46,720
doing a learning.
I'm coming around to observe.

538
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,640
I know I've said it.
Because it's people know what it

539
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,480
is straight away.
Yeah, I know, I know.

540
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,080
It's really.
You know, I can imagine someone

541
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:53,880
joining, you know, like some
like Hotshots come in.

542
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,840
Our new CEO is coming.
We don't do learning what's

543
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:57,080
anymore.
We do learning sprints.

544
00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,080
Obviously it's the.
Same vibe to me.

545
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,960
I get the same thing, yeah.
So learning what?

546
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,320
So I think, I think learning
what was about notice can be

547
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:07,440
fine, right.
Yeah.

548
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,120
But what we didn't get when we
did that was a two line e-mail

549
00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:11,640
feedback.
No discussion, no nothing.

550
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:13,920
I, I found that the most
frustrating.

551
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,480
I don't know if it's a personal
thing of how I am.

552
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,200
You know what I'm like for my
personality in general.

553
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:18,960
Yeah, if I if.
Thank you.

554
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,680
No context.
Just horrendous, awful.

555
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:30,680
I I really struggle with
receiving feedback without the

556
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,280
opportunity to just talk about
it.

557
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,640
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like I, I, I it really, really

558
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,040
went as if it's done as it's
done.

559
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,040
It's, it's like, it's the
feedback, the feedback, it's

560
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:39,200
done.
It's like, well, I am also a

561
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:40,160
professional.
No, no, no.

562
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:41,400
Get over it man.
I've got other stuff to do.

563
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:42,520
Use your feedback.
Just crack on.

564
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,200
Just action those things.
I'm sorry.

565
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,000
I'm your leader and I have got
other people to lead.

566
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:46,920
I've.
Got a learning Sprint to get

567
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,040
around.
You just crack on.

568
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:49,600
I'm jogging at the moment.
I need to be sprinting.

569
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,240
I'm a manager.
I've got, I've got mental age

570
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,040
that's.
Enough, you've talked to me

571
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:53,080
enough.
I've got to go and speak to this

572
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:54,920
teaching magic feedback.
Just learn from it and do better

573
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:56,160
next.
It winds me up because the point

574
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,360
is I've had feedback before and
you know what?

575
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:01,640
It's not nice.
You know it's not nice receiving

576
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,040
feedback that's negative, right?
It's not nice, but now I can get

577
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:04,880
over it.
It's fine.

578
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:06,720
It makes sense.
Yes, I agree, actually.

579
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,000
That's cool.
Oh, I didn't notice that.

580
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,080
And that actually does make
sense.

581
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,960
Thank you for explaining that.
Sometimes you get feedback and

582
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,480
you think there are five reasons
why this didn't happen the way

583
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,040
you think it should have
happened that are all

584
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,200
legitimate.
And I would have just liked an

585
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,760
opportunity to tell you those
things.

586
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,960
Why didn't you just do that?
Oh, maybe it's because I didn't

587
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:25,480
have that in my classroom at the
point.

588
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,160
You could have just used the
overhead projector.

589
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,160
At this point, it's broken.
Do you know what I mean?

590
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,440
Like there's that level of stuff
where it's like you're not even

591
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,360
getting the basic understanding
of how my classroom works.

592
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,920
And then there's the grey area
nuance bit where it's like.

593
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,200
It's just a preference you.
Just have a preference right now

594
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,480
that you're saying I've done
badly because it wasn't your

595
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,920
preference, right.
It's almost as if like on

596
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,680
Wednesday we're going to talk
about different preferences and

597
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,280
setting for maps and stuff and
how it's just one research paper

598
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,080
away from actually you've just
been completely wrong this whole

599
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:50,840
time.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

600
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,040
That's an exaggeration.
Listen on Wednesday.

601
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,320
But yeah, I think the no the no
feedback or chance to respond

602
00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:58,920
once melt.
Yeah, me too.

603
00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:00,760
Yeah, and you're right.
The one, the one that is most

604
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:05,120
annoying is when is when you
feel like the feedback has been

605
00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:07,520
given and they've fundamentally
missed something really

606
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,400
important about your practise
that absolutely, completely

607
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,200
would change their feedback.
And you're like the fact that

608
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,080
you think I've done this for
like a bad reason, you haven't

609
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,160
even considered that I've
actually done.

610
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:16,320
I'm working on a higher level
than you mate.

611
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:18,880
I'm playing 4D chess.
Literally.

612
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,960
But there have been situations
where I've thought to myself, I

613
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,920
can understand why someone
might, my son might come to this

614
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,080
certain conclusion, but they
just haven't considered that.

615
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:29,760
I had already thought of that
conclusion and realised

616
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,720
something else that that Trump's
it even more and you just

617
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,360
haven't considered that.
So I need that conversation.

618
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:35,000
Yeah, 100%.
You like to when you're like

619
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,240
when they come in and they, they
might look on the surface of

620
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,440
like how to save time in
transitions or something, right.

621
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:40,640
Yeah.
And then I'd be like, actually,

622
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,480
do you know what you could have
saved time here if you hadn't,

623
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,640
if you haven't got them to do
this task at the start and it

624
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,560
could have saved time, you could
have got to the the chunk of it

625
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,000
a bit more quickly.
And like that on the surface can

626
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,480
be a really reasonable bit of
feedback.

627
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,160
But then like you said, you're,
you're in your, you're there and

628
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,440
you think, oh, but I just teach
them for four lessons in a row

629
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,480
before this.
And actually, I found when I do

630
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,600
this little task at the start,
which just gets them to talk on

631
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,680
their table or something, it
really helps them in the end.

632
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,280
And it's a, it's a worthwhile 5
minutes because the quality of

633
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:08,400
the work they did at the end
increases.

634
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,000
And it's like, you've not even
taken into account that I could

635
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,200
have thought that all you're
thinking is that I'm an idiot

636
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:14,960
because I thought, let's waste 5
minutes doing this.

637
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:17,920
It's like I'm not though.
And there might have been a

638
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,080
different situation where
actually that feedback could

639
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,640
have gone unchallenged, and they
might think that's good feedback

640
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,680
because it could have been
actually in that situation.

641
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,440
Yeah, they were right.
We didn't need to do that task.

642
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:28,600
Yeah.
But there are also some other

643
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,480
ones where you just don't think
far enough.

644
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:35,440
So I think poor, poor feedback
in school is is a poison.

645
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,120
I really think it's a poison big
time, because receiving negative

646
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:41,800
or constructive feedback is
inherently not a nice thing to

647
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,680
hear, and if you're doing it
badly consistently it's just

648
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,880
going to brew up resentment.
That's exactly what I was going

649
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,280
to say is resentment is is
absolutely the word.

650
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,000
And I know it because I felt it
and I've been there and it made

651
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,280
me want to leave schools.
It does it impacts you

652
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:56,760
massively.
So just finishing off this

653
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,840
question then, because we kind
of went off on tangent again.

654
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,920
What would you say?
We never do that.

655
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,240
What would you say?
There's a part.

656
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,400
In the middle.
Again, not again to this person

657
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,600
who said like, what do they do?
Basically they've had they've

658
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,480
had a learning 2 learning walks.
Yeah, stupid name.

659
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,760
Yeah.
And the first one was it's too

660
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:14,840
busy.
The next one was I would lacks

661
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,360
evidence of learning.
So basically contradict

662
00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:18,080
themselves.
What do you actually do in that?

663
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,680
Situation So what I would do in
that situation is and knowing

664
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:21,920
I've got to stay in this school,
right.

665
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,240
That's because it's just
ridiculous.

666
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,080
It's quite yeah.
Anyway, who goes?

667
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,320
I would.
I would say that that to me

668
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:30,840
personally, would be enough
proof.

669
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,080
This whole process is bollocks.
But this to me is proof.

670
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,560
You're saying it's too much.
It's too little.

671
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,760
I've changed what you said last
time I took it on board.

672
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:39,960
Maybe I thought it was busy
because actually it helps my

673
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:40,920
class.
But you know what you said?

674
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:42,120
It's too busy.
I'll just change it.

675
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:43,560
That's fine.
Next time you come in.

676
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,320
Oh, yeah.
It's lacking, isn't it?

677
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,000
Not much on there.
It's like, Oh my God, I don't

678
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,360
even think this is the way to do
things.

679
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,480
I'm only doing it this way
because last time you told me to

680
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,400
change it.
I already think this is stupid,

681
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:53,400
and now you're telling me it's
stupid.

682
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,280
Yeah, that's enough information
for me to know that I should not

683
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:57,960
be taking this feedback
seriously at all.

684
00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:00,240
So all you do is you wait for
the next one.

685
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:01,360
Wait for the feedback.
Yeah.

686
00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:02,360
No problem.
Yeah.

687
00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:04,520
And do what you want to do and
do nothing and do what you want

688
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,360
to do anyway.
Genuinely, just do what you want

689
00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:07,240
to do anyway.
Because.

690
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,440
Because no, Even if you changed
it, they'd give you some crappy

691
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,000
feedback next time.
If you don't, they'll give you

692
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,680
some crappy feedback.
You're going to get crappy,

693
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:13,840
awful feedback.
Yeah.

694
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:15,680
Cool.
You've made this whole thing

695
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:16,640
pointless.
It could have been really

696
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,040
constructive and helpful, but
it's not.

697
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,480
I'm not going to waste my time
over this anymore.

698
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,600
I'm going to do what I want to
do until you prove to me that

699
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,200
your feedback's good.
Just because you're in a

700
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,840
position of power in this school
does not automatically mean that

701
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,480
you're always right off.
Some some people would argue

702
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,600
that even though that's that,
that basically that's the easy

703
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,240
way out, like disengaging with
it and ignoring it is kind of

704
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,000
the easy way out and they're.
Only once it's been proven to be

705
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,200
bollocks.
That's my point.

706
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,760
Only once you've seen it does
it's it's not even rooted in

707
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:42,920
anything useful.
That's what my.

708
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,560
Point is there a space here for
actually pushing back and

709
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,680
fighting back and trying to make
the point that you the thing

710
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,360
that you're ignoring and just
rolling about whatever is there

711
00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:53,880
a space for saying actually no
stand up for yourself and say to

712
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,000
them and call them out on this
stuff repeatedly until they

713
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,840
start to listen and a. 100% but
like it just gets to the point

714
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,840
where I can imagine it being
like they clearly don't care.

715
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,760
They've clearly been told, like
I've had leaders before tell me

716
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,760
like middle leaders who like in
between who've said to me, like

717
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,000
if it's felt like they're on
side, I just, I do just need to

718
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,680
put something down now.
I need to put something down

719
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,600
that was bad.
Basically, I need to put

720
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,880
something down that wasn't good.
I have to give you something.

721
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,840
It's the rules that I have to be
seen as a manager to be managing

722
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,760
you to get better.
And if I don't have anything in

723
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,640
here that makes you better, then
it's going to look bad for me.

724
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:27,360
And you just both sat in a room
knowing it's complete and utter

725
00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:28,880
nonsense what you're going
through.

726
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,240
But someone above who's not even
stepped foot in the classroom

727
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,400
has said you need to have that
it that that's the point where

728
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,640
I'm like, OK, whatever.
Yeah, that's the point where I'm

729
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,720
just like, OK, I, I am just
going to not care.

730
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,200
I will never ever.
I've told the Story 3 times on

731
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:43,840
the on this podcast, but it's
been a long time I.

732
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,520
Want to two?
100 I will never forget the

733
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,120
moment in which our most recent
head with the school we worked

734
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:53,440
at the longest did an
observation of some sort, and

735
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,400
the feedback had no constructive
There was nothing.

736
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:57,880
He was like, oh, it was just a
really good lesson.

737
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,320
It was just an afternoon lesson.
It wasn't.

738
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,000
You thought I made it sound bad.
No, no, no, no.

739
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,280
Had no constructive feedback.
No good thing.

740
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:05,360
Yeah, yeah.
No, of course.

741
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,080
Had no negative.
Had no negative.

742
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,360
He wasn't.
Basically, he saw a lesson and

743
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:11,000
he thought the lesson was really
good and he really enjoyed the

744
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,680
lesson because I'm such a good
teacher.

745
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,720
That's what I'm trying to.
Say and but the point was he

746
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,880
wasn't like doing that thing you
just said there of like, oh,

747
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,320
I've got I've got to say
something was bad.

748
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:20,640
He just went, yeah, it was a
really good lesson.

749
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:21,640
Yeah, Thank you.
Carried on.

750
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,080
And I and I couldn't believe it
because I was like, hey, this

751
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:25,960
can't be possible because I'm so
used to schools just picking

752
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:27,600
about everything and even stuff.
I don't disagree if they're

753
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,960
still picking it apart.
And I was like, oh, that's cool.

754
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,840
And then whenever I did get
constructive feedback from that

755
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,720
person, I really took it on
board and listened to it because

756
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,160
I was like, I respect this
person because when?

757
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,480
Because when they didn't have to
say it.

758
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,160
You sure you talked about the
primary Norden last time?

759
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:41,360
He said it was perfect.
What's changed?

760
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:42,720
Yeah, true.
True.

761
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,680
But I didn't.
I respected his opinion because

762
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,200
it was real.
Yeah, He didn't just force it

763
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,600
because all the structure of
this format form, the formality

764
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,640
of this tells me and I have to
give you 2 points that are good

765
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,120
and actually at one point, OK,
you just, you just told me

766
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,280
you're honest reflection of the
lesson and I happen to be a,

767
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,440
well good teacher.
It's true.

768
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,920
It's true.
It's fine.

769
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,080
Yeah, I completely agree.
I completely agree.

770
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,640
It's this obsession, isn't it?
It's just a it's a toxic

771
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,560
obsession.
We've always, always, always

772
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,280
happened to get better.
It can be fine.

773
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:14,920
Do you know what he could have
done?

774
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,320
He honestly, and I've seen you
teach, so I know he could have

775
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,520
found something wrong with
that's my bubble.

776
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,640
He he could, he could have found
something.

777
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,520
Of course, there might be people
listening going, Oh, actually,

778
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,800
that's bad leadership.
That's bad leadership, because

779
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:28,320
obviously there's always
something you could just say and

780
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:29,640
you could do it in a nice way,
right?

781
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,920
You could do it in a nice way.
And it's just always a bit icky

782
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,520
to me that they would he would
suggest that it's fine.

783
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,200
He wasn't even suggesting that.
No, he wasn't even suggesting

784
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:37,480
that.
He was genuinely just saying

785
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,800
like as a that is a completely
acceptable lesson.

786
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,120
If anything, it was a good
lesson.

787
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:43,520
I'm happy the children, you
could say.

788
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,080
I'm happy the children in my
school are receiving this from

789
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:48,800
you and just making you feel
good.

790
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:50,240
That's the end of it.
Oh, cool.

791
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,600
Yeah, it's fine.
It doesn't mean that you've

792
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,960
reached a, that you've
completely teached perfection.

793
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,120
Yeah, it doesn't mean that.
It just means that you wanted to

794
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:58,360
give you some praise.
Yeah.

795
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,160
Which in it's in of itself is a
good motivator to make you teach

796
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,280
better next time.
Yeah.

797
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,360
How much better was your next
lesson after that than it would

798
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,400
have been if he'd come in and
been like, oh, this, this, this,

799
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,680
this actually?
He put the bar so high.

800
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,040
Next time I was, I came with my
feet up.

801
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,280
I was like I don't need to work
this hard.

802
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,200
You're really still managing to
paint this as a bad thing I'm

803
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,200
just doing.
Anything I can to troll in this

804
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:20,600
moment?
The, the overarching point,

805
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,800
exactly what you said was in
that moment that head teacher

806
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,720
decided to just be nice and make
me feel good.

807
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,840
And it worked really well, yeah.
That's it.

808
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,280
And and legend has it that two
of your hairs grow back.

809
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:30,960
Yeah, that's true.
It's just true.

810
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:32,600
I'm on 5.
Heads, now explain why you've

811
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,960
got so little working with me.
Yeah, OK, cool.

812
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,720
Next, next question.
Am I in the minority thinking

813
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,680
that Sats in year 6 are a good
thing?

814
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,280
Every other year group does end
of year tests.

815
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,040
It narrows the focus for staff
in English and in math lessons,

816
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,760
and it sets kids up for when
they do more formal testing

817
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,360
later in their school life.
Obviously it can be done badly,

818
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,720
but when people say we should
outright scrap stats, I do feel

819
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,280
like it's a little bit of an
overreach.

820
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,080
It's a really good question,
really good question because

821
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,760
I've, I've always struggled to
articulate where I stand on this

822
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,000
whole argument because my gut,
if I'm just going to be honest,

823
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:10,280
right, I'm not try not to be
persuaded by the way people

824
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,640
think online and and the the
status quo, right?

825
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,120
My genuine gut feeling is Satsa
pretty good.

826
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:16,400
They're all right, They're all
right.

827
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,600
Like I've never actually thought
to myself, these are so damning

828
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,000
that we should immediately scrap
them and not replace them with

829
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,120
anything.
Like I actually have never

830
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,040
thought that I've considered it
based when we had like COVID

831
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,680
time, I definitely thought to
myself, interesting.

832
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,960
Had a couple of the analystics
teacher for that whole period of

833
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,040
time, didn't have SATS for a
couple of years.

834
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:34,800
Didn't seem to make much
difference.

835
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,560
Whilst also ignoring the fact
that we did mock Sats anyway

836
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:38,840
with those kids to get data
points.

837
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,520
So they kind of did have sats,
you know what I mean?

838
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,720
It was like I just in my head, I
was no official sats.

839
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:44,760
Wow.
Didn't make much difference,

840
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:46,520
still did it anyway.
Chose to do it you.

841
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,080
Know, I know we're going to go
into a few things here, but I

842
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,800
want to pick you on that a bit
more because I think what you've

843
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,240
described there is what a lot of
people still think SAT should be

844
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:56,680
like in terms of it's scrapped,
right?

845
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,480
So I don't think, I don't think
many people, correct me if I'm

846
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:01,800
wrong, there might be some
people out there, but I don't

847
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,440
think many people are saying we
shouldn't do any kind of formal

848
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,760
assessment whatsoever.
Because like this question says

849
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,720
here, like the end of year 3, we
do a, we do an assessment, see

850
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,480
where they're at end of year 4,
end of Year 5.

851
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,760
So I think you saying we did it
anyway.

852
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,240
I'm like, well, that's not
really the point.

853
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,800
Like, I don't, I don't think if
people got their way who wanted

854
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,600
to scrap Sats that finally got
that, I don't think suddenly we

855
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:22,960
wouldn't be assessing children
at the end.

856
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,400
I think what maybe people are
talking more about is the

857
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,320
pressure of league tables, the
pressure from the top down, the

858
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,800
the, the obsession with getting
to a certain point because it's

859
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,880
going to look bad for the school
and then leadership getting

860
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,680
stressed and then governor's
getting stressed.

861
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,240
All of that can be removed from
scrapping sacks in terms of

862
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,000
scrapping the system.
But I think you can still

863
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,880
maintain an end of year
assessment to see where the

864
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,000
children are at.
So did did you notice a

865
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:50,360
difference between when you had
a a formal SATS before COVID and

866
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,880
after COVID compared to when?
Yeah, well we just did SATS in

867
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,000
the VA 6 anyway in 2020 and 2021
just to see where they're at.

868
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,320
Did you notice a difference?
Well, it's a difference in the

869
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,520
in the children or the way we
everything, the whole.

870
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,360
Thing everything like did you
think to yourself, but you know

871
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,680
what, this is actually better
because I still get the benefits

872
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,920
of assessment.
I still get the benefits of

873
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,760
seeing where they're at in the
benchmark or compared to their

874
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,720
peers, etcetera.
But we're not going to get

875
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,480
published league tables.
We're not going to get the

876
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,000
pressure of actually our school
is here, it's there.

877
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,440
The the progress points haven't
been acceptable blah blah blah.

878
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,080
What did you feel that or?
Kind of, yeah, like the pros and

879
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:22,880
cons, right?
The, the pro was, it was like

880
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,760
SAT's light.
It did take away the things that

881
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,480
I think are very valid arguments
by the way, of, you know,

882
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,360
getting rid of the the league
tables, put on all this

883
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:30,480
unnecessary pressure, blah,
blah, blah.

884
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,520
But on the on the on the, the
cons side, it like it would have

885
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,040
been maybe nice to have some
national data just as a

886
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,480
benchmark just to see kind of
where we were or local data.

887
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,600
I don't know.
And I, and I think I don't know

888
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,920
where I lie on this, but there's
the severity of the way the Sats

889
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:53,120
are taken and administered it.
Without that, it would have been

890
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,440
easy to cheat on those tests.
It would have been easy for

891
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,880
teachers to just, it's always
all just chill kids.

892
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,280
I'm just going to read out the
paper to you today.

893
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:00,920
It's not the real.
Sad, but they don't go any much.

894
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,000
Doesn't go anywhere but like,
what's the point then?

895
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:04,080
Like, I don't know.
That's my point.

896
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:05,800
That is that is lit.
So this is what I'm saying.

897
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,520
Yeah, because it doesn't go
anywhere because there aren't

898
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,120
league tables.
What is the point in cheating?

899
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,800
Like it's it's almost as if
saying the end of year 4 test is

900
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,159
pointless because it's not got
severe invigilators and rules.

901
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,679
It's not pointless.
We, we, we, if anything, we

902
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:20,280
administer it more strictly in a
way in terms of it's just useful

903
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:21,480
information for my colleague
next year.

904
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,719
I don't think that's true.
I think based on my experience

905
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,080
of every other year group where
it's not SATS, I think cheating

906
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,920
is way more rife potentially.
I, I from my experience, I think

907
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:30,880
SATS cheating is rife.
I, I do also think that

908
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:32,199
genuinely, but I think it'd be
worse.

909
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:34,719
My point is I think people are
way more relaxed on the end of

910
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,040
year three tests and the year 4
tests.

911
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:37,239
That's true.
I do think that.

912
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,679
And and then I count this
countless times I've seen like

913
00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:42,280
just crappy data going up to the
next year group or from key

914
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,159
stage 1 to key stage 2.
There's different schools or

915
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:47,080
whatever and where I'm like.
Do you think sats?

916
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,199
Do you think like having really
strict, you know, rules around

917
00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:51,840
it, it's national debt, do you
think that improved that?

918
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,320
I think so, yeah, a little bit.
I think it puts the fear into

919
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,400
people of like maybe I shouldn't
this time.

920
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,840
I really do think it's I don't
think it's perfect.

921
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,480
I think that plenty of people
still cheat on the Sats.

922
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,880
We'll find other ways around it.
Let's say they're they're

923
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,680
choosing 5% and they maybe would
have done it 10% if they didn't

924
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,280
have anyone, you know, standing
on the shoulder knowing there's

925
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,240
official administration, we
could be observed at any point

926
00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:10,640
and completely barred from the
Sats.

927
00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:13,160
I do think they have that has
some impact.

928
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,560
Whether it makes me think
therefore we should keep the

929
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,560
system exactly as it is is a
stretch, I don't think.

930
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:18,960
That's OK.
What would be your answer then?

931
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,080
Would you, if you really just,
you know, deeped it for a second

932
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,480
and thought, OK, end of year
six, it sounds as if you do want

933
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,600
the bar to be like a national,
you want that national data, you

934
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,440
want it to be like a, a more
formal task.

935
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,200
Yeah, yeah.
You wouldn't change anything

936
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,360
then.
I would remove I think.

937
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,480
I think I'd remove any link
between SAT's progress data and

938
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,240
GCSE because most schools just
disregard it anyway and just do

939
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:48,440
RE and just reattest kids at
7:00 and just have just get rid

940
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:49,520
of the link completely between
like.

941
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,400
Benchmarks and even if they
don't, a voice found that a bit

942
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,920
odd where, you know, I think we
all agree that it would be a bit

943
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,360
daft to take a snapshot from
when the child is 11.

944
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,000
Therefore their predicted grades
are this.

945
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,080
Therefore, I'm not saying
schools don't do this because

946
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,600
schools do, but they look at
their predicted grades and be

947
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,440
like, we need to get to here and
then it will help you with the

948
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:06,800
support you need, etcetera,
etcetera.

949
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,600
Even even though that is used by
some schools, I mean, you said

950
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,360
lots of schools disregard it,
lots of schools don't because

951
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:12,560
they are literally judged on it,
right?

952
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,920
It's still important.
I I still think like whether or

953
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,280
not that's used correctly or
not, it's stupid.

954
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,160
Yeah, really I agree it's
stupid.

955
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:21,680
Kids learn at different rates,
etcetera.

956
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,920
And what, what you got in year 6
in a, in an English and maths

957
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,600
test shouldn't really give it
all your predicted grades to see

958
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,760
what, you know, intervention you
need for every subject.

959
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,520
Like that seems daft to me
anyway.

960
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,680
So I I think a lot of secondary
school teachers feel the same

961
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,840
way, where it would be nice to
not have that burden on the

962
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,200
secondary school as well to get
them to that level.

963
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:39,840
I agree.
I agree.

964
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,480
So I get rid of that.
I'd also get rid of the league

965
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:42,680
tables.
I just don't think they're.

966
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:43,600
I don't.
I just think they're.

967
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,160
Only comparing.
You literally just said it'd be

968
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,520
nice to get national.
Data OK yeah interesting.

969
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:48,720
You just need two different
lenses.

970
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,520
I think the kind of public
perception of like posting, oh,

971
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:54,800
this school's got this data.
I think there could be an

972
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,800
internal database that
professionals could use fine,

973
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:58,880
but I don't think we need to be
just dragging about.

974
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,000
Maybe maybe that maybe that's
the middle ground.

975
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,840
I don't know.
I I think having access to

976
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,400
national averages is useful.
I don't think I need to be able

977
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:08,920
to go on to actually, I'm going
to take back what I said.

978
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:10,880
I don't think I need to even go
into an internal system to be

979
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,000
able to look up what every
single.

980
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:13,080
School.
I think it'll be a weird middle

981
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,480
ground to to have it but then.
Just you don't need it.

982
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,320
The only reason I was thinking
we have it is the averages, but

983
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,880
we don't even need to see this.
Like I just honestly all that's

984
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,480
useful to me each year is
literally like how roughly how

985
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:23,480
is everyone else doing?
Cool.

986
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,560
Do you think, do you think it
it's that data should exist

987
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,880
though at all?
Do you think, like, you know,

988
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,160
officials should be able to see
it, et cetera, people above the

989
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:34,560
government, et cetera?
I mean, I guess so, I guess

990
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,760
because the data will exist like
by definition.

991
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:38,280
I just don't think it needs to
be published.

992
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,280
Yeah, genuinely, it just doesn't
need to be the league tables.

993
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:41,520
They just.
The league tables seem

994
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,200
insidious.
They, they are insidious, that's

995
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:44,320
all.
They don't, I don't think

996
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,320
whatever net gain they get, like
whatever gains where they give

997
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:48,600
there's, there's a lot of.
Loss.

998
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,760
Well, the gain is it's pressure.
Yeah, isn't it?

999
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:51,960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Think how many people think, oh

1000
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:53,120
God, yeah.
Got to get higher up that league

1001
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:54,080
table.
If anything.

1002
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,480
It promotes more cheating.
Yeah, it promotes more flirting

1003
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,200
around the lines and it promotes
more horrendous timetables

1004
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:00,880
leading up to SAT's where all
they do is English, maths and

1005
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,160
the kids just can't stand it.
Yeah, there's so many messages

1006
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,080
of people saying that the kid,
they've got messages from year

1007
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,640
six teachers saying the kids
can't stand school now.

1008
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,040
Yeah, what are we doing?
It's rubbish.

1009
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:11,880
So again, how do we tackle that
as well?

1010
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:13,360
Because I still think about
despite all this, I think

1011
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:14,680
there's probably one more point
to this.

1012
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,200
I still think having having it
more formalised in the year 6 is

1013
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,960
just going to make it more
likely that that data is

1014
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,200
trustworthy and it is useful to
have that national benchmark

1015
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,120
when kids transition from
primary school to secondary

1016
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:26,080
school.
I think there is still use for

1017
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:27,800
that, right?
I think the SAT's has a use.

1018
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,960
So how else do we make it so
that it, it doesn't become this

1019
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,440
horrible burden on on staff and
children?

1020
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,560
Probably not linking performance
pay to it as well.

1021
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,000
Genuinely, there's little things
like this that probably applies

1022
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,440
really just to all like that
happens in year 4 as well.

1023
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,480
In Year 5, like quite often it's
the, some schools will link, you

1024
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,160
know how the results essentially
to the performance and they'll

1025
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:48,720
judge you as a teacher based on
those stats.

1026
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,000
There's lots of little things.
I think generally, systemically,

1027
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,960
not necessarily just the stats,
the stats, sorry, that could

1028
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,720
help schools alleviate pressure
with these tests and actually

1029
00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:01,680
just use them, what they're good
for, which is finding out the

1030
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,960
attainment of children in
English and maths and having it

1031
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,200
and running it across the
benchmark to know roughly where

1032
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,240
we're where we're going.
Like gap analysis is still

1033
00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:10,000
extremely useful.
Yeah, of course.

1034
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,120
So either maybe I need to think
about it a bit more, but I, I

1035
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,120
overall, I'm not on the camp of
being the SAS.

1036
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:21,320
No, I'm also not, not in the
camp of let's reform it and do

1037
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,160
it a different way.
I still think we could explore

1038
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:24,400
other ways of doing it.
Not in that.

1039
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,160
I'm not in that.
Do you mean you're not?

1040
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,240
In that I'm in it.
So you want to reform it.

1041
00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:31,400
I'm also in the case, yeah.
But what I'm saying is I'm like,

1042
00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:33,840
I'm not in any.
I'm not taking a hard position.

1043
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,360
Yeah, of course.
I think we could make the stats

1044
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:35,840
work.
Yep.

1045
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,160
I think we could reform the
stats and do it entirely

1046
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,400
differently.
Yeah, life went on in 2020 and

1047
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,240
2021.
Yep, life went on after.

1048
00:39:43,240 --> 00:39:45,200
Exactly.
But I don't think we should just

1049
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,640
straight up scrap it and do
nothing about it, which is what

1050
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:49,920
you said, which you you're
basically saying.

1051
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:51,200
I don't think many people think
that anyway.

1052
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:52,920
I actually know quite a lot of
people think that online.

1053
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,240
Maybe they think they should
just abolish the stats, like

1054
00:39:55,240 --> 00:39:57,640
straight up and replace it with
nothing and just do learning at

1055
00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,240
school and then they just go to
secondary school.

1056
00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:00,320
I don't actually think that's
the best.

1057
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,120
Do those people also think you
shouldn't have an end of Year 5

1058
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:03,280
test?
I don't know.

1059
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:04,640
Because that, that that's my
point.

1060
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,680
Like like you can still have an
end of year assessment probably

1061
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,200
like so.
But that's what I mean.

1062
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,400
Like people say stop testing
primary school children.

1063
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,160
I'm like, why?
Yeah, yeah, I think testing is

1064
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,600
good.
Like, like as in I'm seeing what

1065
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:18,920
you know or don't know.
Yeah, yeah, especially on these

1066
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:20,160
things.
Like do you know how to do long

1067
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:21,760
division?
Well, I've tried it 10 times and

1068
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:23,200
you, I got every single one
wrong.

1069
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,280
So I'm going to help you.
So I'm going to help you.

1070
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,360
Yeah, which is fine.
But they're probably referencing

1071
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,080
something along the lines of
things that we've said in the

1072
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,000
past, which is I don't actually
need that.

1073
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,120
There is a level where I don't
need to test children to know

1074
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:35,600
what they can and can't do
because I'm teaching them

1075
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:37,680
everyday which is more
efficient.

1076
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:38,880
I agree.
I still think there's a place

1077
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:40,320
for them.
But some people I think will

1078
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,280
argue you've been teaching them
all year.

1079
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,520
You should know what they can
and can't do without a test at

1080
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,920
the end of it telling you.
But but OK, true to an extent

1081
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:51,600
and in terms of do the act of
completing a test does nothing

1082
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,160
for you to get better at the
stuff, right.

1083
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,920
But it's a it's what you do with
that information after.

1084
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,400
I think that's people's problem
with SATS.

1085
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,560
You do the SAT paper and it's
like we all agree that, Olivia,

1086
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,760
an act of doing a test does not
help anyone in the moment.

1087
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,320
Yeah, right.
It doesn't help anyone in the

1088
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:06,560
moment.
Oh, it prepares them for tests

1089
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,840
later on.
Well, yeah, OK, cool.

1090
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,360
The test later on where what
happens after is what the

1091
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,160
important thing as well.
So you do the test in the

1092
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:15,840
moment.
I think everyone understands.

1093
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,640
And if your argument is to not
do tests is that testing doesn't

1094
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,600
help improve knowledge.
I was like, no, it never does.

1095
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,880
That's not the point of testing,
but if you do a test and then

1096
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,080
how that information is
interpreted afterwards, it's

1097
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,040
really useful.
That's why I still think you can

1098
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,360
have the Sats, still think you
can do a gap analysis, still

1099
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,000
think at the end of every year
group you have some kind of

1100
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,960
assessment to see where they're
at.

1101
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,920
Where have you ended up at?
That's interesting for me to see

1102
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,080
in a snapshot.
It's not to be or an end all,

1103
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,720
but it's interesting for me to
see in a snapshot when every

1104
00:41:42,720 --> 00:41:45,600
other person in the whole year
group and maybe even country has

1105
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,960
done the same questions.
I can't control that.

1106
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,080
Otherwise, I'm just going to see
what they can do on their own in

1107
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,400
the snapshot and understand the
pros and cons, and then from

1108
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,440
there look at those gaps and
fill them.

1109
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,960
The issue I think a lot of
people have year 345 in our

1110
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:02,480
school, gaps will be passed up.
We don't understand what

1111
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,560
children can and can't do.
It might inform intervention, it

1112
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,160
might inform what the children
get in terms of helping them to

1113
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:11,040
do the bit that test doesn't do.
Year 6 comes along, it feels as

1114
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,040
if it's just a test, see what
they can do, they get a score.

1115
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:15,720
Nothing happens with that
information.

1116
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,760
And that's where I think it
falls apart is where if we're

1117
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,800
testing just simply for a
snapshot of where they're at,

1118
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,840
your argument makes more sense.
But I don't necessarily think

1119
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,440
that therefore means we
shouldn't have testing at all,

1120
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:28,920
which is what I think people
jump to.

1121
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:30,960
It's like, if we're just taking
a snapshot, what's the point?

1122
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,360
You know, your kids are really
well, it's pointless.

1123
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,600
Well, no, I I think the snapshot
should then be used as a more

1124
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,280
formalised way of getting
information from everyone all at

1125
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,200
once.
Then secondary schools and see

1126
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:41,520
that information and work from
it.

1127
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:42,760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
See where their gaps are.

1128
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,760
So I don't think, I think it's a
weak argument to say that

1129
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,680
testing you already know your
kids and testing doesn't tell

1130
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,760
you anything more.
Well, it kind of does.

1131
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,600
And it's what you do with that
information that's important.

1132
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,120
So given that, then there's
going back around to one of the

1133
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,880
sort of first hypotheticals we
asked, which was the person who

1134
00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:59,760
thinks we should just abolish
that entirely.

1135
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,200
And you said, what do they think
about year five and four tests

1136
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:03,880
if they use what you just said
there and say when are we OK

1137
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,360
with year 4 and five?
And because we use gap, we

1138
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,480
actually use the gap analysis in
all of those tests to inform

1139
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,880
future teaching, whereas the six
SAT one is the outlier because

1140
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,000
we don't they just do the test
and then we move on.

1141
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:14,720
Yeah.
Would you?

1142
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:16,880
Would you be more inclined?
To agree there is, there is an

1143
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,240
argument at that point, because
all that's happening with the

1144
00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:21,360
SAT really is all that's
happening now, to be honest with

1145
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,080
you is that it's judging the
school and the kids get the and

1146
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,600
I understand why people won't be
like just sod that, right?

1147
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:28,320
Because it's just being used for
the school.

1148
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,360
We're not getting that bit after
that makes more sense.

1149
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,040
And people always say when they
go to secondary school in year

1150
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,360
7, a lot of schools just do
their own baseline test then,

1151
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:37,000
right?
No one's saying they're

1152
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,760
pointless because they're really
useful because the school get

1153
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,560
the information of a snapshot
and see what they can do from

1154
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,640
then.
So all all I think should happen

1155
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,920
is there should be a bit more
transparency perhaps between.

1156
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,200
If we're going to do a test at
end of year six in the same way

1157
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,960
we do in end of year 345, the
end of year six data is given to

1158
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,800
wherever they go to and it's
used to inform what they do.

1159
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,040
If they're then just going to
sit another test at the start of

1160
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,800
year 7 to see where they're at
then then yes, I agree.

1161
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,320
One of those is pointless.
Yeah, one of those is completely

1162
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:06,560
pointless.
And it's probably the probably

1163
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:08,560
the Sats one because they don't
have a whole summer off.

1164
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:10,240
And also it's between schools.
It's just.

1165
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:11,520
Exactly.
It's not in your control of the

1166
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,600
new school.
That I can I completely agree

1167
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,800
with that, but I still I still
have this inkling in my where

1168
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,600
I'm like, OK, do you know what I
think it's gone way too far.

1169
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,240
The pressure's on the children
when the outcomes for the IT

1170
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:23,640
doesn't actually help the
children that much.

1171
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,840
Do this test like it does in the
previous years.

1172
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,000
This is more about seeing where
to, but I do think schools do

1173
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:30,440
need some accountability to wear
so.

1174
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:31,200
This is the.
This is the.

1175
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:32,560
Problem, my brain.
So.

1176
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,080
So my point here is that's why
I'm saying something more along

1177
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:41,480
the lines of what happened maybe
in 2020-2021 where schools

1178
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,880
carried on, maybe for the fact
of helping the children.

1179
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,720
We do need to look at those
league tables and think we can

1180
00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:49,440
still do a test at the end of
year 6, but there has to be

1181
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:50,560
where there's pressure on the
schools.

1182
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,520
Yeah, and or if there is the
same amount of pressure in the

1183
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,200
school, because we're saying we
need to hold schools accountable

1184
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:59,040
and see what they've done, we
have to enforce more rigidly

1185
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,800
that that something's ring
fenced in the curriculum where

1186
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:03,680
children aren't doing mass in
English all day for six months.

1187
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's stupid.

1188
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,080
Ofsted need to be able to drop
in.

1189
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,440
If we're going to have Ofsted
and they drop in, and if they

1190
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:11,680
see that happening, it should
just be we're going to be more

1191
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,360
strict about it saying this is
not good for the children.

1192
00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:15,080
Let's not pretend this doesn't
happen.

1193
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:16,640
It does happen.
Of course it does because of

1194
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:17,680
pressure.
I get all that.

1195
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,200
But we need to do something
about it because at the minute,

1196
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:21,880
what's happening is the pressure
trickles down, trickles down,

1197
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,240
trickles down, trickles down to
the kids who get all the

1198
00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:26,800
pressure for the school's
outcomes without the benefit of

1199
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:28,920
doing a test because it's just
scrapped off that they go to

1200
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:30,560
secondary school and they do a
new test anyway.

1201
00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:33,480
Yeah, it is.
I completely think it is broken

1202
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,160
right now.
I just don't like this.

1203
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,600
Scrap it completely.
It's like, OK, we just need to

1204
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,000
have more nuanced conversation
that we just had.

1205
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,200
Yeah, Yeah, definitely the
headline of scrap sats can be

1206
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:42,480
interpreted so many different
ways.

1207
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,160
I think we have to definitely
change.

1208
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,400
It yeah, you have just
articulated why I always

1209
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:49,840
struggle with this conversation
because sometimes I'm like,

1210
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:51,800
yeah, no, we should scrap it.
Because everything you said

1211
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,080
about the point of the point of
basically the point of asking

1212
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,440
kids questions, whether it's in
a test format or a lesson

1213
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,120
format, is to find out what they
know, analyse that, you know,

1214
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,640
through your gap analysis or
whatever in the moment and then

1215
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:03,440
act on it.
Right.

1216
00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:05,720
And when the SAS actively
doesn't do that and it's

1217
00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:08,480
literally just a benchmark only
for us, I'm always, and then I'm

1218
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:09,640
like, oh, yeah, maybe we should
just scrap it.

1219
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:11,200
But then I'm like, oh, but then,
but then there's no

1220
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,160
accountability for schools that
we've decided we have key

1221
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:14,480
stages.
And at the end of those key

1222
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,360
stages, like they're pretty
sparse or they're pretty spread

1223
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,160
out already.
Like, is it the worst thing in

1224
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,080
the world just to have every
couple of years there's one

1225
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,800
thing where we just go just
double, just double check that

1226
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:25,640
we don't get to, you know, the
kids don't get to 16.

1227
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:27,520
And then we find out that the
schools have just been laughing.

1228
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,520
So I'm doing nothing.
We need some accountability.

1229
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,200
So I'm always torn in my head as
to that.

1230
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,680
And you, yeah, you've pretty
much just summarised why I can

1231
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,280
never really quite land
somewhere and why honestly, if

1232
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,000
you probably listen to this
podcast, there's probably other

1233
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,240
times where I've been way more
one side and other times I've

1234
00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:43,040
been way more the other side
because I can't quite land

1235
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:44,600
myself.
I think we've been quite

1236
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,880
consistent in understanding that
there is definitely benefits of

1237
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:48,440
both.
Yeah.

1238
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,800
And I think, you know, we're not
shy of landing on one side,

1239
00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:53,760
right.
But I do think when we discuss

1240
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,720
stuff we do, we do take into
account both sides.

1241
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,040
And if we do land on a side,
it's just because there seems to

1242
00:46:58,040 --> 00:46:59,520
be more evidence.
It's not because we're ignoring

1243
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:00,600
it.
So I find that fascinating.

1244
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,840
That was really good.
Loads of questions, still loads

1245
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:04,400
more questions.
We'll have to put you on next

1246
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:04,840
week.
Yeah.

1247
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:06,680
So we'll actually getting better
at that now, guys.

1248
00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:07,960
Thank you.
So much do join the WhatsApp

1249
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,080
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1250
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,080
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1251
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,440
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1252
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,040
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1253
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,200
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1254
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,360
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1255
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,920
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1256
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,480
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1257
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,840
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1258
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,600
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1259
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,840
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00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:37,800
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1261
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:39,360
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