195. Will The Smartphone Ban In Schools Actually Change Anything?

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Hello everyone, welcome back to
another episode of Teach State

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Repeat.
My name is Dylan and my name's

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Hayden and we are today going to
be diving into the news that was

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recently put out there.
Phones will be banned in

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schools.
What's that?

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I thought phones were already
banned in schools.

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Yes, of course, but it's
becoming law, enshrined in law

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that schools will be phone free,
specifically smartphone free

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places for personal devices.
First thoughts?

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My gut feeling is that is a
great change, a welcome to

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change, and it'd be interesting
to dive into now what the actual

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differences are then, because
like you said, I think most

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people understandably are like,
oh, I thought that was already a

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thing.
Definitely.

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I thought they already were
banned.

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I thought, this is something
I've felt like I've been seeing

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on the news for ages.
And also what we'll do is

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because I did a video of this
online, a reel about it, just

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explaining what's going to
happen.

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We'll obviously dive into what
you just said, but we'll also

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look at the pros and cons, the
things people are saying, why

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it's really good.
But also interestingly, what a

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lot of people are commenting on
that reel saying actually, you

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know what, I get this, but XYZ,
we're going through the

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potential drawbacks of this kind
of policy.

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But yeah, you're right, in terms
of gut feeling, I also think

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this is a good thing, to be
honest with you.

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I don't think schools should be
a place where where phones are.

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And I think specifically
smartphones are the cause of

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this.
You know, I'm, I'm not thinking

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of a Nokia 3310.
Yeah, that's not what I've got

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in my head here.
Bring them back.

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It's smartphones, you know,
with, with apps designed to take

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attention.
And in a classroom, where should

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the attention be?
Certainly not on a phone.

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Yeah.
On me, that's a teaching.

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Exactly that, exactly that.
So let's let's dive straight in.

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I think we can have a look at
what the guidance literally says

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because this guidance has
existed for a while.

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We'll go through the the whole
timeline of it and maybe get a

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good idea of what most schools
are kind of already doing.

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So there's been effectively
there's been a phone ban for a

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few years already, just wasn't
legally binding.

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So in February 2024, the
previous Conservative government

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published mobile phones in
schools.

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It was non statutory guidance
and encouraged schools to

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prohibit phone use across the
entire school day, including

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break and lunchtime.
The headline stat from that

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document by The Age of 1297% of
children own a mobile phone,

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which sounds shocking, but I'm
not surprised if you haven't at

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all.
Well, a lot of parents say,

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obviously we come from primary
school perspective.

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I, I do think it is a different
conversation as well.

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I think I, I really, really,
truly can't think of any, any

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reason why primary school should
be allowed.

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We'll come on to later why lots
of people think maybe secondary

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should be, but we, we hear it a
lot and about you had, and

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obviously you were in year 6,
you kind of got that that line

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was a bit closer to you year 4.
Not many kids had a phone, but a

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lot of parents say secondary
school you can have a phone.

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Yeah, I always found year 6 was
the transition year at the

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beginning of the year, not the
majority of children.

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My past didn't have phones.
By the end of the year, the

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majority of children did have
phones.

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So I quite often found that was
the 11th birthday, the changes.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Generally, or a lot of it is

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like, are we going to start
walking to secondary school

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soon?
So we're going to get ourselves

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ready.
And one of the things that often

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comes in to that is having
phones, which can well.

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OK, Cross.
So the guidance offered kind of

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a menu of approaches, ways to go
about it, you know, off and away

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in bags, hand in on arrival,
lockable pouches, secure storage

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areas and schools basically were
just free to to choose whatever

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they wanted and whether or not
even they listened to this

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guidance.
It was just guidance critically,

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and this is so important, it'll
come up a few times.

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It's explicitly built in some
flexibility for SEND.

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So medical needs I've myself
have taught, I think, let me

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think about it, get it right.
I have taught four different

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children in my career who use a
mobile phone to track their

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blood glucose levels.
And it is vital for them and it

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allows them to be fully
inclusive in the classroom.

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I don't think anyone I think we
can just turn our critical

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thinking on for a second.
No one saying phones should be

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banned in schools is is saying
and that's for those kids with

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diabetes.
They shouldn't have it either.

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No one course they should no one
thinks that.

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And but even even extended out
to I think further.

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And this is also a good thing
within this net of flexibility

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young carers EAL pupils maybe
when it comes to translations

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and things mental health needs
and exceptional circumstances.

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I think that's that's really
important to put out there that

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when we we say phone ban, like
everything in life, there are

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some exemptions.
Exactly that.

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I mean, that's the only that
that's it, isn't it?

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What more is there to say?
Of course, there's some

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exemptions.
Have you got some really unique

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circumstance where there
shouldn't be a phone, don't

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worry, but there should be a
phone.

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Sorry, don't worry.
I'm sure that will be taken into

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consideration.
It will.

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Absolutely.
So hey, do you want to talk us

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through them?
Because this, this was

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introduced, like I said,
February 2024, a couple of years

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ago, January this year, there
was a bit of a refresh under the

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new government.
Yeah, exactly.

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So under Labour there was a bit
of refresh, stronger language

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behind it as well.
So all schools should be mobile

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phone free environments by
default.

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I like that idea.
Default anything other than this

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should be by exception only.
So even in that centres alone,

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they're still building in this
idea of there are some cases

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though obviously Ofsted started
looking at phone policies as

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part of every of every
inspection as well from April

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2026.
So.

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So the thing that really
interested me there is it's,

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it's already guidance.
It's it's, it's out there.

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It's it's clear, a lot of people
agree with it.

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And we can see here the reality.
The Children's Commissioner

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survey out of 19,000 schools
found that 99.8% of primaries

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and 90% of secondaries already
have policies restricting phone

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use during the school day.
So this is already happening.

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Yeah, it it does make me think,
OK, so what's changing now?

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And I think all you need to do
is go back to what we said about

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there.
There was a refresh on the

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labour and it was just stronger
language.

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Yeah, it was just the the
language that came across was

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like you should do.
But it still had that keyword

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should all schools should be
mobile phone free, there should

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be only exceptions, etcetera.
It's that word should that is

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what's really being tightened
now, right?

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Definitely.
And there's one other thing I

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want to talk about in this
because it's something we spoke

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about months ago when we were
talking about social media bans.

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And then we were then we kind of
widened it to should be bans,

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phones and schools.
We had a little conversation on

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the podcast and I remember
saying to you that just saying

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you have a policy doesn't
necessarily mean it's actually

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remotely good or effective.
And I do think, and I said it

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then and I'm glad it's coming to
fruition, I said, I do think

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there's a space for the
government to step in and take a

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bit of ownership of this and,
and say, OK, well, actually, if

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we make it more official, make
it legally binding, then maybe

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some of the policies that might
even be within that 99.8% or

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that 90% that aren't really
doing a very good job and, and

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they're not effective, maybe
they'll review them and actually

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put in more effective policies.
So I think there's still scope

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to say that the stat alone,
99.8% of of primaries have that

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have this policy doesn't
necessarily mean that it's

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solved.
Yeah, and oh, every school

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already does it.
Well, they might do, but they

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might do it better.
They might.

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There might be better ways or
approaches they can take and

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take it more seriously.
But but even even let's just put

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the focus on secondaries because
that's where there's a bit more

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of a gap and really more of a
problem.

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It's just not really a problem
in primary schools, honestly.

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Obviously someone out there will
say think of a story they maybe

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have got, but in general, it's
very much secondary thing. 90%

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is a lot, but there's still that
means 10%.

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That means one in 10 schools
don't have a policy about no

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phones in schools, which to me
is is outrageously high.

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You know, oh, it's only 10% and
that is thousands of schools.

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Yeah, that's enough, isn't it
alone to make to be like, OK,

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let's.
Do it's worth doing this?

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I think so.
So thinking about what the new

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law will actually be then.
So this is basically what's been

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announced.
Skills Minister Jackie Smith

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told the Lords that the
government will table an

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amendment to the Children's
well-being and Schools Bill.

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We did a whole episode on the
Children's well-being and School

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Bill.
Again, have a search in the top

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if you want to listen to us dive
into that.

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But this is going through as
part of this, there'll be an

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amendment that will put it on a
statutory footing.

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So it's no longer non statutory,
it's just guidance.

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No, it's going to be statutory.
You have to follow this.

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So this basically means that the
guidance itself won't

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necessarily be changing.
It will just be that instead of

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it just being guidance, name
will change.

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So this is where they're
tackling.

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Not .2% in exactly in primary
schools and the 10% exactly that

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gap is like that will be
tackling that percentage.

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Precisely.
And this is what the DfE online

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it says it will give legal force
to what schools are already

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doing in practise.
Yep, this is something we'll

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come on to later where people
say, well, what's the point

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then?
All it's going to do is add to

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teachers workload or to teachers
anxiety or more more

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importantly, leadership's
anxiety around the fact that

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what they were already doing is
now a law.

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And if something out of their
control, for example, a kid

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brings something in, what's
going to be the the outcome?

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Is it going to be the the school
that are responsible now because

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it's the law that's not allowed.
We'll go into detail about that

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a little bit later on.
So it's worth listening to.

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But it is it is that basic.
It comes off that consultation.

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And I think there is a huge
drive in the public and also of

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in the profession.
If you talk to teachers

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overwhelmingly, we did a poll on
our Instagram and 94% of people

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said yes, this should be a law.
Only 6% said no, we should stick

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to the guidance.
So it wasn't even an option that

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we shouldn't have this, but it
was overwhelming the amount of

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teachers who we asked who said
no, this should be a law.

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And what's really interesting is
that this is AU turn in a in a

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way, Yeah, this government doing
a U-turn.

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What shock.
So literally last year, the

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government responded to
essentially people talking about

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it being a law, and they
rejected it.

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And they did the classic thing
that governments often say,

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which is no, no, no, no, no, no,
we're what we're going to do is

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allow it to be school LED.
The the school can just decide

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which has a place and is very
useful in a lot of ways.

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And schools should be in charge
of a lot of things.

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But I find it fascinating how
within six months you can just

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completely change your mind and
pretend you haven't just changed

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your mind.
You know, six months ago it can

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be school LED.
Why can't it be school LED now?

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So, so something's changed.
Either you didn't think it then

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or you do think it now.
I don't know which way around it

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is, but my, my core
understanding here we're

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thinking about what's changing.
I mean, it's important for

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people to understand the actual
guidance and the actual rules.

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And what the government are
saying schools should do isn't

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00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,280
actually changing.
It's merely the fact that it's

227
00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,600
going to be on a more statutory
footing, a bit more consistent,

228
00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,880
some people are saying. 100%
there's some, there's some

229
00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:39,040
interesting feedback from
people.

230
00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,000
I've got two things here, I
think not necessarily

231
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,720
contradicting each other, but
they're sort of opposite ends of

232
00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,120
the spectrum, I guess.
So Pepe Delacio from the

233
00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,080
Association of School and
College Leaders said a statutory

234
00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,600
ban doesn't really change much.
It's kind of addressing what we

235
00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:52,920
were just saying a minute ago,
because most schools already do

236
00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:53,680
this.
If you just look at those

237
00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:55,800
numbers, like I was saying,
yeah, most schools already do

238
00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,240
and says what would actually
help is government funding for

239
00:09:58,240 --> 00:09:59,720
storage.
Surprise, surprise, it comes

240
00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:01,400
back to money.
Obviously, if we can implant

241
00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,680
most things in schools, it does
generally require some sort of

242
00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:06,840
money behind it.
You think about like lockers or

243
00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,640
if they're doing like you get
those little pouches, those

244
00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:10,080
things, they obviously cost
money.

245
00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,360
So like it is all and well well
and good saying school has to do

246
00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,640
this now, but in.
But you have to fire 2TA's.

247
00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,040
Yeah, exactly right.
In today's climate is like, what

248
00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,040
are you saying?
We have to find the money from

249
00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,000
other things that we're always
very scarce that's.

250
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,200
Exactly what they're saying,
yeah, As they always do.

251
00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,040
Obviously it has to come with
funding, you know, and Paul

252
00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,120
Whiteman from the National
Association of Head Teachers

253
00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,680
said the upside of this is
clarity and consistency.

254
00:10:34,680 --> 00:10:35,680
And I really agree with this, by
the way.

255
00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:37,360
And I read this as like, yes,
this is exactly what I was

256
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,280
thinking.
It removes ambiguity between

257
00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,080
schools and, and he said, but
schools need time and support to

258
00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,600
communicate with parents.
So both people are saying really

259
00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,760
interesting things and both are
backed up with, oh, but we need

260
00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,280
something though.
We we need something systemic to

261
00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,160
help this.
I found, can I just very quickly

262
00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,160
say something on this?
Yeah, I just just because I've

263
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,800
had a lot of people comment on
the reels and stuff and the

264
00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,160
generic tone was definitely
between these two things and

265
00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,400
they kind of justified both and
said but and they both came back

266
00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:04,400
to that funding.
Yeah.

267
00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,480
It was like, well, well this is
pointless, it's already

268
00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,080
happening, we need some funding.
And then other people said,

269
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,120
yeah, it's great, it's
fantastic, but we need some

270
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:12,920
funding.
It was like, it was almost as if

271
00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:16,240
on it was superfluous, whether
it was a law or not.

272
00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,560
It was like, OK, is it a law?
I don't care, it's guidance.

273
00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:19,680
Yeah, cool.
OK, Well, most people are doing

274
00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:23,280
it, whatever that fine, whatever
we have to, it has to come with

275
00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:24,400
support to actually implement
it.

276
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,440
And I find it really interesting
because I would like to think

277
00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,320
the fact it becomes law means
that it's being taken more

278
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,840
seriously and therefore means
that funding will come as a part

279
00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:34,560
of it.
But it feels like it's missing

280
00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:37,160
that next step which kind of
undermines that move from

281
00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,200
guidance to law.
It's like, OK, well you're just

282
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,480
now forcing me to go into a
deficit to make sure this

283
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,120
happens.
You're now forcing me to make

284
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,400
sure that my form tutors.
Part of their job now becomes

285
00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,560
policing phones, taking them in
at the start of the day and

286
00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:50,640
giving them out the end of the
day.

287
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,680
That's time that's going to be
taken up when I'm not going to

288
00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:55,640
expect them to do less work.
So it's more work for them,

289
00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:00,320
increases workload, increases
cost, if we're really serious

290
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,800
about this.
But I get fed up with the

291
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,480
government saying you must do
these things and please go and

292
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,240
that's the end of it.
Can we have something for it

293
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,720
please?
Do you think 2 questions really.

294
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,640
Do you think there's a middle
ground where even if they don't

295
00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,320
address the funding thing,
turning this into law will still

296
00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,360
make an impact?
For example, with the 10% of

297
00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,040
schools that don't do anything
at all right now might do what

298
00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,360
the other 90% are already doing.
Yeah, I'm on.

299
00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,800
I'm on that question now.
I'm on the side much more of

300
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,240
Paul Wightman from the National
Association head teachers who

301
00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,920
were saying this gives clarity,
it gives consistency, It's good.

302
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,400
I, I agree with that.
I agree with that because

303
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,960
already the 90% who are doing it
aren't getting more funding as

304
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,440
well.
I don't, I don't automatically

305
00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:40,520
think therefore it's pointless.
I'm just saying it would be nice

306
00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,440
to see the move to law also
coming along with we're really

307
00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,200
taking this seriously.
We're going to make it law now.

308
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,120
We're putting a lot of pressure
onto youth school leaders to

309
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:48,200
make sure that this is
happening.

310
00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,040
It's it's, it's going to be a
case of it being unlawful if it

311
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,320
doesn't fall.
So therefore we're going to help

312
00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,000
you.
I feel like that next step is

313
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,240
missing and I still land on the
side of it's good, but I

314
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,680
completely sympathise with
people who say, well you're not

315
00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:02,000
even helping us do it so what's
the point?

316
00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:06,120
Second question to try and push
back a little bit, and I don't

317
00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,040
know there's much thought in
this at all really, but.

318
00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,640
Well, you're saying it so.
Is there?

319
00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,080
Is there such a side large I
thought?

320
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,760
You, I thought.
You I.

321
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,280
Was thinking so deeply I was
like sorry nor difficult.

322
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:19,960
There is thought that isn't.
There, yeah, there's there is

323
00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,160
thought, there is thought, but I
don't know if there's, you know,

324
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:22,920
I don't know.
Was he right?

325
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,400
So it is there another middle
ground where sometimes as

326
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,520
teachers in the profession, we
like to say we can't possibly do

327
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,680
anything without funding.
Whereas this could be a

328
00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:36,240
situation where it's just a case
of just rejigging things, just

329
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,520
reallocating things, just moving
things around.

330
00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,880
Let me hear me out.
If one of the solutions from the

331
00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,040
law doesn't actually require you
to buy things, for example, if

332
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,720
the policy is just you can't
take your phones to school, that

333
00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,800
is the policy, yeah.
I think you have to buy lockers

334
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:50,600
and things.
Yeah.

335
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,120
And schools just go, well,
you're not getting US funding,

336
00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,120
so we'll have to do that one.
Yeah, I think that's stupid as

337
00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,640
well.
So I think it's ridiculous

338
00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,240
because whether you, whether you
like it or not or agree or not,

339
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,040
and this is where people even
more agreeing with it than me

340
00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,320
come in or like, no, we there
was once a time in the 70s where

341
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:07,960
no one had a phone ever and we
were just fine.

342
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,680
OK, but it is acceptable and
understandable that you might

343
00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:13,360
want to have your phone if
you're travelling to school on

344
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,680
your own or after school.
Maybe you're going somewhere

345
00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:18,920
that isn't home, Maybe you're
going to a club.

346
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,520
You walk yourself to a football
club and then you go home from

347
00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,080
your football club late at night
back to home.

348
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,640
It's reasonable to expect that
child should have their phone on

349
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:27,560
them.
So if you're saying just simply

350
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,280
no, don't bring your phone into
school anymore, I think that's a

351
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,280
really weak policy.
That's just that's not putting

352
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,080
into account everything else
around life in general and just

353
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,240
putting it at the centre.
Oh, well, we're at school, we

354
00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:38,800
say no.
Like I don't think that's very

355
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:40,880
useful at all.
I think the main reason why you

356
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,320
shouldn't have phones in school
is distraction thing in lesson

357
00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,960
time and potentially a thing
during break times and lunch

358
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,400
times that cause anxiety around
WhatsApp groups, etcetera.

359
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,960
Just just that it's at least
control that time in school.

360
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,000
But I think going outside of
that is just nonsense.

361
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,440
So what I would say to that
person is I understand what

362
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,240
you're saying.
There are, there are obviously

363
00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,400
ways we can do this, which means
we don't have to have extra

364
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,400
money in place.
We could just outright ban

365
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:03,720
phones.
But I don't think anyone

366
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,600
actually, I don't think the vast
majority people think that's a

367
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,240
good idea either.
So I would say I think it's

368
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,280
flawed in that it would be a bad
implementation of this policy,

369
00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,200
but it would see into other
aspects of life which I think

370
00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,840
are wrong, and children and
parents should be able to decide

371
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,800
whether a child has access to a
phone in those respects.

372
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,240
Yeah, that's a really
interesting point.

373
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,200
I think that's kind of where I
was landing when I was debating

374
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,240
whether to ask you that or not
'cause I was like there is a

375
00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:26,640
middle ground where there's a
multiple.

376
00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,920
There's another policy was that
is said at the earlier what was

377
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:31,800
suggested was just put in your
bag and put it away.

378
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,760
But we know that's kind of a
weak policy because kids just

379
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,440
get out of their bag.
They've got access to it really.

380
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,440
So like yeah, you can do that if
As for the.

381
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:40,920
Only way in this.
Yeah, you're right, We can.

382
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,800
We can and the only way in
saying that is if this, if this

383
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,480
law comes in, at least schools
can do something straight away

384
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,120
and then and then it opens up
the discussion too, OK,

385
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,080
everyone's now doing this thing.
You're not giving us any extra

386
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:52,360
funding.
So we've had to be limited to

387
00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,040
these options.
Let's let's assess how effective

388
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:56,320
these options are.
They're not very good

389
00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:57,520
government.
So what's the next step?

390
00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,600
And I think it's the
implementation of the policies

391
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:01,160
as well.
If there's a policy that's put

392
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,440
in place, which is that phones
away and don't touch them, the,

393
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,440
the, the act of a child getting
their phone out shouldn't mean

394
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,920
school's broken the law they're
in, they're in trouble, right?

395
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,000
It what it, what it should be is
maybe we're just looking at the

396
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,680
implementation.
What's the policy around if a

397
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:16,920
child does do that?
Is it being implemented

398
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,960
properly?
If, if all of those answers are

399
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:20,560
yes, then nothing should happen
to the school.

400
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:22,040
I agree.
So that's the worry again, of it

401
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:23,520
becoming a law.
It's like there's too much on

402
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,800
the school where it's going to
be the school's problem.

403
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:27,640
And if a child does something
wrong, suddenly it's a school

404
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:29,480
who's in an issue and it adds
stress to that.

405
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,800
I think that would be a bad
version of this law, which is

406
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:33,280
why it needs to come as a
holistic approach with

407
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:34,800
everything.
And that's where, you know, we

408
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,720
will come on to later.
The pushback, I think there's

409
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:38,120
some really good pushback about
it.

410
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,040
I don't necessarily think that
on its own that pushback means

411
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,440
that we shouldn't do this.
I think it means that we should

412
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,280
do this and take into account
these pushbacks and these ideas

413
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,840
and therefore give schools some
slack around it or therefore

414
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:51,600
change maybe what the policies.
Might be definitely.

415
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,440
People are rightfully and
understandably worried about the

416
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,880
law thing about like who's
accountable and accountable to

417
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,440
what and what makes you
accountable and what's the

418
00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,600
consequences out for the school,
right?

419
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,600
But you can, you just know as
well, like in this situation I

420
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,920
just gave where there's no
funding and schools are saying,

421
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:05,839
OK, we haven't actually got any
budget, so we're just going to

422
00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:07,560
have to go down the route of
kids, you're not allowed.

423
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,440
And we know we had this rough
policy before, but it's really

424
00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,000
strict now.
You're not allowed your phones

425
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:12,960
in school, right?
You know what would happen,

426
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:14,319
don't you?
Because if Ofsted came in or

427
00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:16,760
whatever, the government body
came in to hold accountability

428
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:18,680
and you happened to go to a
school where it was a real

429
00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:20,720
problem.
It was a genuine issue that the

430
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,880
kids just are not following that
policy and the school has put in

431
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,880
place everything they can.
Who, who's going to, what's

432
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,160
going to happen?
They're going to say, well, this

433
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,120
policy is not suitable enough.
You need to be having some sort

434
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:33,360
of lockers or, or some sort of
system that requires funding.

435
00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:35,680
And it's just going to be this
annoying loop of the schools

436
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,960
basically being told this policy
isn't good enough and also not

437
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:39,600
being given the funding to do
the better version of the

438
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,360
policy.
And I can already imagine that

439
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:42,800
happening.
And it's annoying me, just like

440
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,080
the thought of it, because you
just know that's how stuff works

441
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,600
and.
And that's the, the idea from

442
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,320
this is that, that that's where
it'll come in terms of, you

443
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,000
know, you're, you're talking
about the schools.

444
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,720
Then it got blamed basically for
not living up, for not having

445
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,120
the funding.
It kind of it, it makes like put

446
00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:00,600
my head in my hands when I read
about what it actually looks

447
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,120
like in terms of like the
enforcement and stuff.

448
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:04,360
Because what this doesn't do,
this doesn't criminalise

449
00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:06,800
children, right?
If children bring their phone

450
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,360
into school and they're on their
phone, this ban doesn't mean

451
00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:11,240
that the child has broken the
law and it's, and it's, and it's

452
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,360
criminalised the child.
That's not what's going on here.

453
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,160
What it, what it is, is it's
about the school and the

454
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,320
policies that are in place and
the rules that are in place.

455
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,360
And what made me, like I said
before, put my head in my hands

456
00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:24,720
was just thinking about reading
about what it means.

457
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,200
Basically it's Ofsted.
Basically it's Ofsted.

458
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:28,280
Ofsted.
Like we already said, they're

459
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:29,560
already looking at these kind of
policies.

460
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,560
Ofsted will have more power to
pull people up and pull schools

461
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,920
up.
We know how can inconsistent

462
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,800
Ofsted is on this when they do
it on stuff which is lower

463
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:39,400
level, which isn't even to do
with the law.

464
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,440
We know how consistent they can
be with like look, walking into

465
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,640
a classroom and just deciding
the chronology was off in

466
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:45,840
history.
Therefore it's so you know,

467
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,600
you've not met the expectation.
It's just so inconsistent and

468
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,880
the idea that I can really
understand why teachers look at

469
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,040
this and go right, so who's
who's, oh, it's Ofsted is it?

470
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:56,920
Oh, the school level enforcement
is Ofsted.

471
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,160
OK, for sake, I can imagine it
being like, well, OK, this isn't

472
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:02,480
really going to be helpful at
all.

473
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,520
So Ofsted assesses every
school's mobile phone policy and

474
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,360
its implementation as part of
the inspection.

475
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,240
So a school that has a written
policy but is visibly failing to

476
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,920
actually enforce it, IE the
phones are out of break, no

477
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,160
one's doing anything about it,
teachers are ignoring it.

478
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,920
That's the key part.
They risk failing meeting the

479
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,280
expected standoff behaviour.
So it falls under that category

480
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,360
there and that that's where it's
going to be hitting schools a

481
00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:28,400
bit more.
I think as long as it's actually

482
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,000
implemented fairly, which is
what's the policy, how's it

483
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,880
being implemented, then I think
it's OK, right?

484
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:38,840
Sure.
If an inspector comes in and

485
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,520
sees a child with their phone at
break time and is failing the

486
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,920
school because of that, I think
that's a nonsense.

487
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,280
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because it has to be about

488
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,360
what's in place to stop that
happening, not does it ever

489
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:50,560
happen.
Yeah, 100%.

490
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,400
And I think that's possible, you
know, yeah, I, I am, I am one

491
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,200
to, I am one to bash offstead
for being inconsistent.

492
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,840
But but also you look at other
areas safeguarding, they're

493
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,240
pretty consistent with
safeguarding.

494
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,600
Like I think this, I think they,
it can exist that they're pretty

495
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,720
consistent with this thing,
which to me, I'm like, I'm

496
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,280
almost banding with safeguarding
in the way.

497
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,400
Like the process will work in
terms of checking it and looking

498
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,160
at it and the importance of, of
making sure it's implemented.

499
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:13,720
But I think they can do it with
that.

500
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:14,720
OK.
They're inconsistent with

501
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,200
history because it's just it
gets ridiculously subjective at

502
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,160
that point, but they can, they
should be able to be pretty

503
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,680
consistent of around one single
policy in the school.

504
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:23,320
So.
Can I can I explain what I mean

505
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,160
though in terms of why I think
the comparison works?

506
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,280
Because the, I've heard of
inspect to go in and we'll just

507
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,480
ask a child to simply say,
what's the chronology of maybe

508
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,040
like the, the, the Iron Age, the
Stone Age, the Bronze Age, and

509
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:36,800
the child didn't know what order
it came in.

510
00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:40,000
Then the, the, the, the
inspector on that information

511
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,920
alone has said chronology's bad
at this school.

512
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,880
Sure.
Without actually looking at what

513
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:45,480
the planning looked like,
without looking, without

514
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,320
thinking about what the lesson
looked like, without thinking

515
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,280
what the teacher actually taught
and just taking on face level.

516
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:51,560
This child didn't know the
chronology.

517
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,520
Therefore chronology is bad at
the school to me is the same as

518
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,760
looking at a child's got their
phone out there for everything

519
00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:58,240
to do a phone in this whole
school is bad.

520
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,440
Well, no, there was a whole
policy on chronology.

521
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:01,800
We've had some training on
chronology.

522
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,160
The lessons itself explicitly
taught the children the order.

523
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,600
If one child doesn't remember
that, it doesn't mean chronology

524
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,680
is bad.
But there are some inspectors

525
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,920
who I have heard of who've gone
in, tested a child on chronology

526
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,760
in that respect, and then said,
oh, they have a weakness there

527
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,000
on chronology.
No, there isn't a weakness on

528
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,960
chronology.
That child just didn't know same

529
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,280
thing here the child's got their
phone at a break time all

530
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,880
weakness on the on the policy of
of phones in school.

531
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,200
No there isn't that child has
just gone against the rules and

532
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,120
implementation that our
everything a leadership team

533
00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:31,720
could have done everything
teachers could have done has

534
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,960
been done.
We can't judge those things and

535
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,360
I've seen off they do that on
the side of education in

536
00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:37,440
lessons.
I I'm.

537
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,120
Just saying I don't want to see
that happen with this.

538
00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:39,640
Yeah.
Do you know what?

539
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,160
You're absolutely right.
Because when you're given that

540
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,240
analogy, I was like, OK, how
does that same analogy work for

541
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:44,320
safeguarding?
And it is different.

542
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:45,440
Yeah.
Because actually as an often

543
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,200
inspector, if you did flag up,
there's only one child I saw on

544
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:49,760
safeguarding issue with that's
an issue.

545
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:51,200
It's not the same, you know what
I mean?

546
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,920
I'm like, yeah, actually that is
enough to flag a, a school wide

547
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,120
thing of if there is one child
safeguarding, it's safeguarding

548
00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:58,560
is so elevated in terms of the
importance.

549
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,040
It's like they're just not the
same.

550
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,720
I agree.
So yeah, they are a bit

551
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,920
different, but I still think
it's doable.

552
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,640
Yeah.
I agree, but you're right though

553
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,040
because also the chronology
thing is doable and it's not

554
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,640
being done so there is clearly a
flaw here in it's.

555
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,480
Just the inconsistency, that's
what worries me.

556
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:13,880
That's that's what worries me
there.

557
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,920
Definitely, yeah, definitely.
So, you know, day-to-day in

558
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,640
schools, this is very much
really happening.

559
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,360
Very interested to hear people
already in our WhatsApp

560
00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:23,920
community, we've had discussions
about this, about what it looks

561
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:25,000
like.
We've got some secondary school

562
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,960
teachers in there.
Some use pouches, lockers, some

563
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,320
just don't allow it.
So no phones on site at all.

564
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:30,720
This is what you mentioned.
That's an option.

565
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,520
I don't necessarily think that's
a good option, but it's the

566
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,120
simplest approach.
Yep, no phones is good.

567
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:36,600
They bring it.
Doesn't cost anything, you just

568
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:37,840
don't take it.
But I don't think it's the best

569
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,440
one handed on arrival.
So they're collected often from

570
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,800
staff like I mentioned about
just another thing for staff for

571
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,440
tutors to do.
Someone's already said that on

572
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,200
our comments, like, oh, it's me,
we'll be doing this then.

573
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:47,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, OK, yeah.

574
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,040
You know what?
Yeah, you should.

575
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,440
You have a right to say it's
just extra workload for you,

576
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,040
because it is.
And at the end of the day, you

577
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,080
have to go and back and meet
your class and hand them out.

578
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:57,280
Oh, that child was 10 minutes
late because they were kept

579
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:58,560
behind.
Well, I've just got to wait to

580
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,360
give them their mobile phone for
10 minutes.

581
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,640
That's annoying.
Locked pouches.

582
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,320
I think this is the more
realistic one, but this comes

583
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,040
with a cost.
You have to implement that and

584
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,920
often away in bags.
This is just a loose model.

585
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,120
I think I get the impression
eventually maybe that will be

586
00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:14,240
something which is picked up
more upon of just like, you

587
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,360
know, really implementing this,
but we're just saying just put

588
00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:17,440
it in your bag.
Is that enough?

589
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,600
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't the
the best option there for me

590
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,480
personally seems to be if we're
going to make this a law and a

591
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,800
rule, we have to have a policy
where that there's something you

592
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,600
can put it away for the day.
It's still your thing.

593
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:31,720
It's away for the day and you
get.

594
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,360
And I think, you know, diving
into that more as well, like the

595
00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:37,640
whole idea of locked pouches or
lockers or things like that with

596
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,760
there is an argument to say that
again, you can still do this

597
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,160
without finding like, do you
need some fancy pants locker or

598
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,360
pouch?
Can there just be a Can you just

599
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:48,800
find a box that anything doesn't
have to spend loads of money?

600
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:50,960
It's scale that you can put a
class teacher can put it on.

601
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:52,560
Like I'm thinking of me as a
class teacher.

602
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,360
I have a floor in this.
Primary is different to

603
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:56,080
secondary.
I'm just saying now OK like

604
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,440
secondary, my secondary got like
1200 kids OK, but I wouldn't

605
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,760
expect tutor but I wouldn't
expect every single individual

606
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,880
tutor to just have a box.
Like maybe maybe it's just the

607
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:06,760
boxing.
I get it, maybe I'm not.

608
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:08,720
I'm not disagreeing with you.
I'm saying it's a scale thing as

609
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,160
well.
I agree it doesn't change the

610
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:11,960
workload thing.
You still I agree with you don't

611
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:13,560
have to be fancy.
I'm disagreeing with myself

612
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,240
anyway, yeah, because I think
there is a big floor in this

613
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,040
because I think you could easily
say would like naively just do

614
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,440
that.
Just give every form tutor a

615
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:20,480
box.
They put it, they lock it, they

616
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,440
put it in a cupboard, crack on
it opens the door to so much.

617
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,840
There's so many little variables
there where like I've had it

618
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,120
before where a phone's been
taken and I have no idea.

619
00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:30,440
It's been literally in my
cupboard.

620
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,600
And somehow in the process of
either them getting collected in

621
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,520
or getting handed out, the end
of the day that phone's been

622
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,560
taken because I just chucked in
some cheap communal box.

623
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,480
There's nothing official there.
So it it does open the door to

624
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,200
yeah, we can do this cheap way,
but there will be some

625
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,600
inefficiencies with it.
If we have, like, dedicated

626
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,400
lockers or pouches named things,
there's a little bit more

627
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,960
official, more security, more
security, less risk on the

628
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,640
teacher being accused of.
Well, you gave my phone to

629
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:52,520
someone else.
Yeah.

630
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,720
You didn't check when you were
giving out those 32 phones in

631
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,000
four seconds because that's what
you have to do.

632
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,400
Suddenly now you gave that to
the wrong people and they went

633
00:24:58,400 --> 00:24:59,520
home with it.
Now my child's not got their

634
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:00,480
phones.
Yeah.

635
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:01,720
Yeah.
Honestly, like they're trying to

636
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,400
do the best in the situation.
We just don't need to open those

637
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,320
doors.
So going down something more

638
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,200
official makes sense to me as
someone who has done the one

639
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,200
we're just saying and constantly
being a bit worried that I'm

640
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,040
going to do it wrong or imagine
right this this happened.

641
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:14,760
I mean, this I guess could
happen in any situation.

642
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,840
Imagine if you dropped a kids
phone because you're just trying

643
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,240
to put in a little basket or
something like that.

644
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:19,200
You you're taking
responsibility.

645
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:20,640
They've got to give it to you
and you're putting it in your

646
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,840
cupboard.
Just remove those things and.

647
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,720
Let's not see Smash.
Oh no, 32nd phone in a row?

648
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,880
What are what are the chances?
Yeah.

649
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:33,920
So in general, you know, the law
won't.

650
00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:37,360
I don't think this law coming
into effect will make sweeping

651
00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:38,840
changes as to what schools look
like.

652
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,040
Yeah, the majority like that.
It won't make sweeping changes

653
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,280
as to what the outcomes for a
child who breaks the rules will

654
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,040
necessarily be.
I think it's going to be more

655
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,720
about at the top level Ofsted
and leadership.

656
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,280
I think they're the ones who are
going to feel the pinch a bit

657
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,360
more and therefore teachers who
are implementing policies that

658
00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,640
have been put in place that
unfortunately I think could

659
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,480
definitely be increasing
workload as well, which is a

660
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,360
huge issue.
We will come on to more push

661
00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:01,480
back later because there is
more, but I thought we could

662
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,160
save that.
We could just split this up now

663
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,400
into why in general teachers
want this and then talk about

664
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,680
the the the teachers who maybe
have some reservations about it.

665
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,560
So let's have a look.
Number one thing.

666
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,200
I think it can be split into
three.

667
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,400
The number one thing I see all
the time is just essentially the

668
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,000
grind of being in the classroom.
100% that's the one everyone

669
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,160
thinks.
Exactly, If you're a teacher at

670
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,600
the front trying to it can, it
can already be quite hard to get

671
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,680
the children to be motivated to
learn about Richard the 3rd

672
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,240
right.
That can already be quite a

673
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,440
tricky thing to do.
But what doesn't help is if

674
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,720
someone's got Snapchat open.
Someone just described it

675
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,160
through messages and stuff.
Yeah, yeah.

676
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:41,600
That I I honestly, I cannot
think of one reason why we would

677
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,640
think that that's OK.
No, like, I agree.

678
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:44,560
Oh, it's alright, isn't it?
Yeah.

679
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,840
Why do you care?
Because I want them to just

680
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,680
listen to the lesson like.
That's obviously because

681
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,920
otherwise what's the point?
Everyone's wasting their time.

682
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,400
What is the point of this whole
environment?

683
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:53,760
Yeah.
Oh, but some children

684
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,800
concentrate more when they're
fiddling with something.

685
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,000
Then I'm sorry they're not
concentrating more if they're

686
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,360
looking at their messages.
Yeah, it's not they're.

687
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:01,760
Not and if they want, if they do
concentrate more because they're

688
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,280
fiddled with something, give
them something to fiddle with

689
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:04,440
that isn't interactive.
Yeah.

690
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,040
There isn't a message board that
isn't social media.

691
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:08,800
Yeah, like, I'm not saying it
doesn't exist.

692
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,120
What I'm saying it doesn't have
to be that there's no oh,

693
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:13,040
actually, do you know what he
doesn't need Snapchat open

694
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:14,160
because it's how he
concentrates.

695
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,120
Yeah, no, it's.
Not.

696
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,160
Yeah, no, it's not such.
A poor excuse, It's.

697
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:18,640
Just ridiculous.
So that's the first one.

698
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,800
The second one I think is very
widespread as well.

699
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,440
But maybe it's just in terms of
amount of people saying it's

700
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,800
just a little table though,
because bullying and

701
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,360
safeguarding, yeah, those issues
can still exist even.

702
00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:30,400
Of course I can.
So you know, how many, how many

703
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,400
times even in primary school
have we as the teacher where

704
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,080
schools we're not allowed mobile
phones by the way, we still as

705
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,480
teachers get approached by
parents and say, oh, the

706
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,640
WhatsApp group at the weekend
really kicked off all the time.

707
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,600
It doesn't matter what the
school policy on phones will be.

708
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,720
So I think this, whilst this is
important, I don't think

709
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,520
necessarily that this ban will
be addressing this massively,

710
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,600
but it's still important. 100% I
watched a promo video ages ago

711
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,160
and you have to take into mind
that it was a promo video for

712
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,080
like, I think it was some sort
of pouch or lock or something.

713
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:57,920
I can't remember what the
product was, but it was one of

714
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,840
these kind of things, right?
And in the video they were

715
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,040
talking to children at schools
and they were very much

716
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:03,800
addressing this idea of like
bullying and safeguarding.

717
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,400
And there were a couple of girls
on screen who were saying that

718
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,280
although obviously these things
still exist outside of school,

719
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:09,840
it has genuinely reduced it in
school.

720
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,920
Like the reality and the stress
of things happening in school

721
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,560
via like covert messaging and
things.

722
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,400
And, and you being not like
thinking I'm, I'm not aware of

723
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,520
what's happening out in the
loop, whatever was a genuine

724
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,160
stress and anxiety.
And they, and they literally

725
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,040
said that having that taken away
by itself is just enough, a good

726
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,920
enough reason for them to just
be satisfied with not just no

727
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:29,600
one having phones in school.
And I was like, yeah, do you

728
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,120
know what?
There will be probably loads of

729
00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:33,240
little nuances like that that
maybe we don't understand

730
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,120
because we're just not those
children in those schools using

731
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:37,320
those phones in these nuanced
ways anymore.

732
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,400
But it's obviously there's
obviously going to be things

733
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,120
that it positively impacts
attacks by just all of the

734
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,760
children, not having them
identified, phone, not having

735
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:45,720
their phones.
No, sorry.

736
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,400
It's how I listen.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I got, I

737
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,640
got on Instagram and yeah,
scroll Reels and that's how it

738
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:51,320
helps me.
Listen to you.

739
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:52,000
No, no.
Fair enough.

740
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,360
Yeah, actually.
So I'm trying to teach you

741
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,680
something here so could you put
your phone away Yeah.

742
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,320
Put it in your pouch.
I'm so sorry.

743
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,160
But yeah, anyway, the whole
point of that was I just think,

744
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,400
I just think even though it's
not solving bullying and it's

745
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,160
not solving safeguarding, it is
helping it though, and children

746
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,080
are saying that it's helping.
So let's listen to them.

747
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,840
And I think that that voice of
the child is actually really

748
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,480
important.
And it's something that we often

749
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,640
just crossover in general.
I think when education is like

750
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,200
what the kids actually think,
like important stuff.

751
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,040
The vast majority of people I've
spoken to have said who've

752
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,360
implemented policies like this
have said the kids have enjoyed

753
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,040
it.
Yes, the kids actually do like

754
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:28,160
it.
They're not going, I wish I was

755
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:29,560
on Snapchat.
They're just going, oh, this is

756
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:30,920
actually quite good.
What's your Third Point?

757
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,720
My Third Point is social
development, and this is this is

758
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,240
this is so keen.
It's not what came to the

759
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,680
forefront of my mind.
But of course it's true because

760
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,680
currently a lot of a lot of
schools have policies around

761
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:41,720
you're not allowed, you're not
allowed.

762
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,120
You found your lesson.
I don't think there's many

763
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,040
schools who allow that, right?
Let's just make that clear.

764
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,040
But they'll then children will
be allowed to get their phone

765
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,120
and access it at break times and
lunch times.

766
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,840
When I was in school, it was
like when smartphones were

767
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,280
starting to be a thing.
I had my phone.

768
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,040
We had our phones at lunchtime,
at break time we still had them.

769
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,240
And the social aspect of just
saying, you know what, actually,

770
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,960
if you hand it in the start of
the day, obviously breaks and

771
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,560
lunchtimes are included in the
day.

772
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:06,560
So you don't have your phone
anymore.

773
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,760
Play a bit of football, have a
chat with your mate, go to the

774
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,240
library and read a book, do a
little bit of homework, talk to

775
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,880
your friends.
And and if we can, if we can

776
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,360
force, if we can force that in
terms of give children social

777
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,640
time during the school day where
we know they don't have access

778
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,400
to phones, that's going to help
them.

779
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,080
They might not get that outside
of school.

780
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,520
It's one of the rare situations
where when my grandparents or

781
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,400
that generation will say, well,
back in my day and normally roll

782
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,360
your eyes, but when they say
back in my day, we didn't have

783
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,360
these phones and we socially
interacted and we talked to each

784
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,160
other and we developed our
social skills and we played

785
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,320
games and we became more
physically fit by as a result

786
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,040
all these things, right?
I'm like, yeah, you're right.

787
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:48,760
It was better.
That was literally better.

788
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,040
Like it's hands down.
I can't even argue.

789
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:51,440
There's so many other things
where I'm like, Oh well, there's

790
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:52,880
so many nuances.
You don't understand this one.

791
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,080
I'm like, yeah, it was better.
It is just worse in every way

792
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,520
for children to just be SAT with
their heads down on phones at

793
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,360
breakdown to lunchtime rather
than doing all those other

794
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,160
things I just said.
It's literally worse.

795
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,200
It's something to to think
about.

796
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,080
Obviously the union backing is
really strong.

797
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,560
There's a lot of the, you know,
you know, public backing of this

798
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:10,960
in general.
It all makes sense to me.

799
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,680
Everything we talked about there
there is mixed.

800
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,880
There is mixed evidence and and
it's specific and I I talked

801
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,200
about it.
So University of Birmingham

802
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,440
smart school study 2025 S the
first proper rigorous one in

803
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,320
terms of the UK evaluation on
this found that restrictive

804
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,360
school phone policies did not on
their own lead to better mental

805
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,920
well-being, better sleep or
better grades because phone use

806
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,000
outside of school still
overwhelms what happens in it.

807
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,320
And I think it's really good to
draw a parallel to our episode

808
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,200
last week about school school
dinners where we said this on

809
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,640
its own, though, won't tackle
diets being bad because most of

810
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,000
what children eats outside of
school.

811
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,360
It feels like a very similar
point here, which is great, but

812
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,120
it's not really going to solve
all of this because kids just go

813
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,240
home and then go and do the
cyberbullying online.

814
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,640
They go home and then they sit
on there scrolling for six

815
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,480
hours.
This is still happening outside

816
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,520
of it, and it dwarfs the impact
we can have in school.

817
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,920
What's your thoughts?
A. 100% my first thought there

818
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,440
is I was going to throw it back
to you and say what what would

819
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,840
you say to the situation?
Let's just say where a

820
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:12,520
government, this is a typical
thing they do, a government

821
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,800
would stand up and say we've
solved.

822
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,040
Yeah, the mental health crisis
in young children.

823
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,360
Yeah, in the same way we've
we've solved.

824
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,160
Retention because maternity pays
doubled.

825
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,480
Yes, we've solved this will
solve retention for women in

826
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,280
their 30s going back to work
because we went from 4 weeks

827
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:28,640
full pay to 8 weeks full pay,
right?

828
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,240
No it won't.
Very interesting discourse

829
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:31,040
there, isn't there?
Why?

830
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,120
Why is that interesting to you?
Because, because what?

831
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,360
What winds me up is it can it
can dwarf what is a good thing

832
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,760
to do.
Doubling maternity pay from 4

833
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,000
weeks to 8 weeks is obviously a
good thing to do.

834
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,080
It becomes laughable when put
next to that is we've sold

835
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,200
retention.
Yeah, that's not true.

836
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:48,200
Ridiculous.
Not true.

837
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,640
Same thing here.
If this phone ban is put

838
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:51,800
alongside.
So we are.

839
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:53,800
We have solved the mental
well-being of our children

840
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:55,360
because they now don't have
phones in school.

841
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,560
Shut up.
Yeah, that's not what it's done.

842
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,600
It's it's a step in the right
direction.

843
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,320
It's a good thing it has
positives.

844
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,800
It's cool, it's awesome.
We're all behind it.

845
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,560
Please stop pretending
politically to turn it into

846
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,560
bigger than it actually.
Is huge solutions.

847
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,120
Exactly that it's not going to
be huge solution because still

848
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,320
Mark Zuckerberg has the eyes of
that 15 year old on his reels

849
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:16,880
for six hours in a row when they
get home.

850
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,400
Yeah, it can be a good thing,
but let's just just calm it

851
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:21,840
down.
And I don't think anyone should

852
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,000
be pretending it's going to
solve absolutely everything.

853
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:25,640
That includes people on both
sides.

854
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,400
So someone on one side who loves
this and says it's to be on end

855
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,160
all you can, you can, you can
like this, but let's not pretend

856
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,560
it's going to solve everything.
You can also think that this is

857
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,800
not a good thing, right?
But you, you must accept that

858
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,120
it's going to have a positive
impact.

859
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:39,840
It's not going to have zero
impact.

860
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,680
It's not going to have 100%
impact.

861
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,320
So whichever side you're coming
from, can we just agree that

862
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:45,880
it's still a good thing to do
something, right?

863
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,480
It's going to do something.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

864
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,640
That's it.
Yeah, the the, yeah, just

865
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,280
diminishing any good that
something has by putting a label

866
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,160
on it of something it doesn't
fix is so annoying because

867
00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:00,120
there'll be a lot of people who
won't, that they will say, well,

868
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,640
it's not solving this issue
you've said it solves, so it's

869
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,520
terrible, right.
Rather than ignore, if we didn't

870
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,560
say that other stupid bit in the
1st place, they might have just

871
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,719
looked at what we did do and go,
oh, that's a marginal change for

872
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,199
positivity.
Yeah, in the right direction,

873
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:12,560
but.
That's the issue with politics

874
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,960
in general is it becomes.
So my colour team did the best

875
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,239
thing in the world ever.
That solved everything.

876
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,000
I know why you feel like you've
got to do this.

877
00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:25,040
And it's some, I'm not saying
it's specific to one colour

878
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,520
party or another, but it's kind
of annoying.

879
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,920
Yeah, when I just, it's just
let's can we, can we?

880
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,639
And we just enter a world of
some realism.

881
00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:33,120
What's annoying is it clearly
works.

882
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:34,760
Otherwise they stop doing it
clearly work enough.

883
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,280
People clearly listen to that
and go, yeah.

884
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:37,920
To become tribal.
Yeah, exactly.

885
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:39,639
Because I'm not being funny.
You look at it.

886
00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:41,320
The Conservative introduces
guidance.

887
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,239
Labour then went, I'm not going
to make this law, but I'm going

888
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,840
to make it stronger guidance so
I can say I care more.

889
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:50,320
And then after some pressure,
Labour went, actually, yeah,

890
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,400
we'll make it law.
And the Conservatives during

891
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,000
this time have said it should
become law.

892
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,560
They didn't make it law.
Everyone's just changing what

893
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:58,920
they think to try and score a
point.

894
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,160
It's insane.
Look at the timeline is mental.

895
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,520
Conservatives introduce it but
they don't want to make it law.

896
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,840
It's just guidance.
Labour come in, make it stronger

897
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,120
guidance.
Conservatives say you should be

898
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,400
making it law, you didn't in the
1st place.

899
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:10,720
Labour say no, it doesn't need
to be law.

900
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,200
Six months later Labour say now
it's law.

901
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:13,320
It's the best thing we need to
do it.

902
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,360
But it's different than what the
Conservatives want because they

903
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,680
want an outright banal to get
what the are you doing?

904
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,480
Like this is just it's just
constant changing based on what

905
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,680
the other team are doing.
Can we just think to ourselves,

906
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:25,440
what's good for the kids, what
the teachers want?

907
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,040
How can we help them?
Let's do that.

908
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,400
No chance.
That's the sad reality, isn't

909
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:30,760
it?
It's just no chance.

910
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,720
No.
Nothing we ever do in politics

911
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:35,280
will be about that.
Nothing is about let's just do

912
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:36,760
what's best for the kids.
It's not.

913
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,600
Sometimes it coincides and
overlaps that things we do are

914
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,200
good for the kids.
But realistically they're only

915
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,680
being done because it's the best
policy.

916
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:44,600
They have all the options.
That was the best one to

917
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,440
increase vote, to increase
people that interest in the

918
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:47,600
party.
That's always, that's just the

919
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,600
way.
It's just kind of a sad save

920
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:50,400
affairs.
It's a shame.

921
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,720
Now I'm coming to a bit, I think
this is a bit I'm interested in,

922
00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:55,840
in terms of the pushback because
you and I, again, we always talk

923
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:57,400
about an echo chamber that we
sometimes get.

924
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,480
We both obviously think this is
a really good thing.

925
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,960
I put a video out there which is
very positive about this move.

926
00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:04,920
And there was obviously the vast
majority of people agree, but

927
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,080
those commenting really
usefully, by the way, and I

928
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,680
appreciate it a lot, people just
commenting, not being rude, the

929
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,440
kind of thing I like.
Yeah, when they're not being

930
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,120
rude remotely, but they're just
saying, oh, I, I get this, but I

931
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,080
have this issue with it because,
and they list it and it's great.

932
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,280
I I thought it was really good.
But Dylan's here to tell you why

933
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,520
you're wrong.
No, no, no, no, no, not at all.

934
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,040
Because some of them are right.
Because again, I, I, you get

935
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,360
very excited sometimes you do
videos, you do podcasts,

936
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,560
etcetera.
And we say, I, I said the line.

937
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,480
I can't think of a single reason
why you need a phone in the

938
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:31,920
school.
And straight away someone

939
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,880
commented saying children with
diabetes who are tracking.

940
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,320
And I was like, I, I, I like,
part of me was like, OK, please

941
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,320
obviously think like obviously I
think that's fine.

942
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,640
But I did literally say, and I
can't, I literally said I can't

943
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,320
think of a single reason why I
can.

944
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:45,400
It was.
Already exempt in your mind?

945
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:46,800
Yeah, exactly that.
But but but I can.

946
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,760
If someone's listening to that
whose child is diabetic, I can

947
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,440
imagine them being like this
saved my child's life.

948
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,640
I think that use of tech is
unbelievable.

949
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,400
I've seen it transform
children's lives in terms of

950
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,280
they've got a diagnosis and now
they can still stay in the

951
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,720
classroom they love because they
can get the support they need

952
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:02,000
and we can give them the
glucose.

953
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,160
We can read the glucose levels
and give them what they want.

954
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,160
I think that's absolutely fine.
And I do think that medical

955
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,720
exemptions in general, yeah, are
really, really, really important

956
00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:12,840
for this.
And they go further than

957
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,600
diabetes.
Can I put some pushback some

958
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,400
comments I've seen then like I'm
gonna say them to you and you're

959
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,520
just gonna say whether you think
there's an easy way around it or

960
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,120
if they think it's they're just
they're just wrong or if you

961
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:22,600
think there's some valid
validity in it.

962
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,080
So some people will say, OK,
this new policy will put the

963
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,920
burden on those parents to
disclose document and chase.

964
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,640
So those those parents have
children with with diabetes.

965
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,000
It puts the when when every
other child is told they can't

966
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,240
have the phone, it puts the
button on them to make a point

967
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,440
rather than them just kind of
going under the under the radar

968
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:40,400
like everyone else got their
phone.

969
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,240
I have to just, I have to
explain anyone to when they ask

970
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:43,160
other than the people that need
to.

971
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,960
Know, I, I don't think that I
think it might initially be a

972
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,280
bit of a thing, but it won't
eventually.

973
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,200
Yeah, I think about primary
school where there are no phones

974
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,800
In primary school that's what I
taught and I was in year 4 and a

975
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,320
child had the mobile phone
because they tried.

976
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,040
The kids knew immediately.
Yeah, that then that child

977
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:57,800
didn't feel anxious or anything
about it.

978
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,000
It was like, oh, so what's that
phone for?

979
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,600
They're just tracking because
they've got diabetes.

980
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,320
They're tracking their blood
levels so we know where to help

981
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:06,600
them or not.
OK, carried on.

982
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,680
No, no one actually cared.
So I can see why sometimes,

983
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,480
maybe initially there might be a
bit of anxiety around it.

984
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,080
Yeah, I think within a few
months you just go over.

985
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:14,600
It that's the thing, isn't it
because if a primary schools

986
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,440
it's already normal yeah whereas
if in a secondary school where

987
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,440
everyone's got their phone yeah
and no one questioned it before

988
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,280
the child with diabetes and they
just went under the radar and

989
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,640
now everyone else taking their
phone away and the spotlights on

990
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,840
them because they're on with
their phone in that situation

991
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,920
you can understand why 100
people might say Oh my child's

992
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,760
gonna feel singled out now they.
They and you know what they

993
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,880
might do for a bit, Yeah.
And I just think we have to get

994
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:33,520
through that.
It will just.

995
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,600
Be fun.
I feel that as well, there's not

996
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,760
other perfect solution.
Doesn't to me mean okay, fine.

997
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:40,560
Yeah, we shouldn't do it.
Yeah, exactly.

998
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:43,360
Yeah, they might feel ever so
slightly uncomfortable for a

999
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:44,600
second.
And actually from experience, I

1000
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:45,760
can tell you that it's
completely fine.

1001
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,840
And generally, if anything, I
would say as well, some

1002
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,400
sometimes people say, oh, we
can't have one rule for one kid

1003
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:52,440
and one different rule for
others.

1004
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,760
They'll get confused.
Honestly, from my experience of

1005
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,040
teaching actual little children,
they never get confused.

1006
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,880
They're, they're not, they're
not thick like they are human

1007
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,560
beings.
And they very quickly understand

1008
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,240
even just small nuances in
classrooms of why, why other

1009
00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:08,920
people are not them.
Oh, someone's slightly different

1010
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:10,760
to me and might have a different
need in life.

1011
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,400
Yes.
Oh, why are they allowed to go

1012
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:13,840
out for a quick walk to calm
down?

1013
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:15,200
Because they're you're not
angry.

1014
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,480
Yeah, You don't have you don't
have this need.

1015
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,200
You're fine.
They don't don't even ask that.

1016
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,640
Yeah, they don't even care.
Yeah, like I think you're right.

1017
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,280
I think it's about normalising.
It comes down to that.

1018
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,560
Ethos that all the differences
in life we wouldn't be having

1019
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,920
this conversation it was about
children with disabilities in a

1020
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:29,640
wheelchair of course you
wouldn't be even this wouldn't

1021
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,600
even be on the table they're.
Single doubt because their chair

1022
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,280
doesn't have wheels.
Yeah, it's like, no, yes.

1023
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:34,880
No one.
Thinks that oh, no one else in a

1024
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:36,040
wheelchair in their classroom,
yeah, OK.

1025
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,200
And, and, and with very, very
quickly you completely normalise

1026
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,080
that and, and it's a better,
it's better situation for

1027
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,680
everyone absolutely to have that
normalised, like it's OK to be

1028
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,280
different.
Should we all get wheels or no

1029
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:46,960
one has wheels?
No, obviously some people

1030
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:47,560
should.
Just have wheels.

1031
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,520
Yeah, right.
Like it's kind of a question.

1032
00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:50,560
Exactly that.
Completely.

1033
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,080
Glasses, same thing.
Hearing aids?

1034
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:53,840
Yeah, same thing.
Right.

1035
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,160
Oh my child sing.
It out, yeah, OK, but let's just

1036
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,240
give it half a day.
It won't even be a thing and

1037
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:00,600
exactly that so.
It will be the same.

1038
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,320
I I believe, I really do
wholeheartedly believe that

1039
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,000
it'll be the same situation.
Yeah, with clones.

1040
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,360
And one of the things the people
have said is the new wording is

1041
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,360
a bit vague.
So by exemption only for medical

1042
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,800
exemption for medical exemption,
like it's just, they're just a

1043
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:13,280
worry that it's a bit too vague.
So what do you say to?

1044
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,560
That yeah, I just think at that
point, you again, you just have

1045
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,400
to use your brain a little bit
and like by exemption only.

1046
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,240
OK, Well, as we've got to be
able to trust leaders to make

1047
00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:23,360
those exemptions.
And then when we question them,

1048
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,440
they should be able to say, oh,
yes, this is an exemption

1049
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,200
because of XYZ, because of a
mental health need, because

1050
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,800
whatever it might be, you know,
I get people commented, you

1051
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,400
know, really serious stuff
saying like, I really understand

1052
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,760
this.
But I personally in school, if I

1053
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,560
did not have my phone, my life
could have gone a very different

1054
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:39,360
way.
Yeah, right.

1055
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,040
And I don't think I can, anyone
can look them in the face and

1056
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,040
say, well, I don't care.
You don't need your phone.

1057
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,440
It's like, OK, we we do need
some exemptions.

1058
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,000
I think that's absolutely fine.
In life, there are always

1059
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,280
exemptions.
I don't think they'll worry

1060
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,080
about all exemptions might make
people feel like they're getting

1061
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,320
it.
I don't think that pales in

1062
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,320
comparison compared to.
But the person with the

1063
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:58,640
exemption just needs the phone.
Yeah.

1064
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,080
So there's going to be some
medical exemptions.

1065
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,080
I think just trust
professionals, whether health

1066
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,400
professionals or professionals
in school to decide what those

1067
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,360
exemptions are.
Leave that trust with them and

1068
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,120
then I think that's fine.
Cool, I agree.

1069
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,280
Here's another one and this is
the one, the juicy one I want to

1070
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:11,440
get to.
It's probably the biggest one.

1071
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,160
I think what comes to people's
minds straight away is parents

1072
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:15,480
want a Direct Line to their
child.

1073
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:16,920
You mentioned it, you glossed
over it earlier.

1074
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,760
Let's dive into it a bit more.
Parents say I need my child to

1075
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,360
have a phone because, for
example, there's sometimes last

1076
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,480
minute changes to who's picking
them up and I need and I just

1077
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,840
need to tell them sorry, uncle's
stuck in traffic is going to be

1078
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,040
me but I'm going to be 20
minutes late.

1079
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:31,320
Yeah.
I again, I think that there's

1080
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,680
ways around this that although
obviously would be less

1081
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,440
efficient, I think are the way
we have to go down for the

1082
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,360
overall good.
Is it less efficient to have to

1083
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,600
go for a school for logistics
and things like this?

1084
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,080
Yes, of course it's less
efficient.

1085
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:44,040
There's a middle man.
Yeah.

1086
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,920
That that, that that office
staff person might be busy and

1087
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,120
not get it back to you straight
away.

1088
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,840
The communication might be poor
in that school and not get.

1089
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,200
I think we have to look at
improving those things rather

1090
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,280
than just saying, therefore we
can't do this ban on school.

1091
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:57,960
It has to be yeah.
Do you know what?

1092
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,440
There are some cons to this.
This is where I agree what

1093
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,120
people are saying.
There are some cons to this.

1094
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,840
Getting a Direct Line to your
child won't exist anymore if

1095
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,880
there's lots of people.
That's a con, OK.

1096
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,040
I don't like the vague notion of
it used to be this way and we

1097
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,040
were fine when it comes to
making an example for things

1098
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,880
because I think, yeah, just
because it used to be something

1099
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,200
doesn't mean it is now.
And a lot of people say we used

1100
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,360
to be fine about a Direct Line,
we would be fine now.

1101
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:22,680
So no.
Well, it is better.

1102
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:24,960
It is better in a lot of
respects to have that Direct

1103
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,080
Line because we are
technologically able to do so.

1104
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,240
And it would be a step back to
take that away.

1105
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:33,880
However, I think that in the
whole grand scheme of things we

1106
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:38,280
can put enough in place to to go
against the whole fact there is

1107
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,680
no longer a Direct Line.
We can put something in place to

1108
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,000
negate that.
Not fully, but enough that the

1109
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,000
benefit of doing a score band
still outweighs it.

1110
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,360
That's exactly how I see it.
Yeah, the best counter argument

1111
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,400
I saw because I very, my gut
feeling was the whole my instant

1112
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,360
thought was, OK, well, what did
we do before 20 years ago for

1113
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,200
Christ's sake?
Like schools obviously operated

1114
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,160
fine and emergencies were we
just went through the school

1115
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,560
office and someone made a
really, really good counter of

1116
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,000
yeah and back.
And the last time that was the

1117
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,120
reality.
We also had triple the funding

1118
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:06,960
and we and we had three office
staff.

1119
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:08,600
Rather than two.
Rather than one.

1120
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,400
And now it's at the point where
it's become so inefficient in

1121
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,600
some, some people are saying
it's so inefficient now to try

1122
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,280
and go through the office.
Like it's actually like that's

1123
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,720
that's much worse.
Like I need to get this urgent

1124
00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:20,040
information and it's taking
three hours.

1125
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:21,720
Yeah.
Because because of the systems

1126
00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:22,480
in place.
Exactly.

1127
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,560
And you know, if if a child is,
you know, reluctant to be in

1128
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,320
school and doesn't trust the
school system, but is trying to

1129
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,760
go to school and is there and
wants to contact their parents,

1130
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:32,840
having a bad day halfway through
the day, that child's not going

1131
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,440
to go to the office who they
don't trust or like and say I

1132
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,280
need to speak to my mum, please.
So there there are slight issues

1133
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,000
there along the way.
I'm not saying I'm not saying

1134
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,760
there aren't issues.
No, I think it's ridiculous both

1135
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:44,640
ways here to turn around and
just say, wow, that's just not

1136
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:45,920
an issue.
Of course it's an issue for some

1137
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,040
people.
It'll be there, you know, very,

1138
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,400
very personal to them and it
will be a problem for them.

1139
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:52,520
And that is going to happen when
this comes in.

1140
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,920
And I think we just need to work
on that rather than say we can't

1141
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:56,280
do the ban.
I genuinely think that's the

1142
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,480
best push back though, and I
actually didn't think that at

1143
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,120
all before we start recording
this and looking into this

1144
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,640
episode, but I genuinely think
the whole idea of parents want

1145
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:03,920
that Direct Line for the reasons
you said.

1146
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,640
We are more technology,
technologically advanced.

1147
00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:08,480
It obviously is better to have a
Direct Line.

1148
00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:10,240
Schools are obviously more
stressed now.

1149
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:12,440
The budgets are way lower.
They have fewer staff to deal

1150
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,160
with these things.
They're already at capacity

1151
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,640
without this policy, like in
offices, all those things.

1152
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,840
I'm like, yeah, it's not wrong.
It's not wrong.

1153
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:23,800
Here's a really interesting one
that a lot of people come into

1154
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,120
this more than I thought would,
was that phones are used in

1155
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,600
classrooms as classroom tools,
as educational tools.

1156
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,960
And we had a lot of people maybe
that art teachers and they need

1157
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:36,640
to take photos of things, right,
right.

1158
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,520
And their point is that they
rely on children's personal

1159
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,000
devices in order to do that
because they don't have the

1160
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,120
funding or the correct amount of
of, of, of actual, you know,

1161
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:49,960
cameras in the classroom to do
it.

1162
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,120
Now listen, my gut instinct and
I'll, I'll let you expand on

1163
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,200
this, but I'm going to tell you
my because my gut instinct is we

1164
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,680
should never be relying on
personal devices to access a

1165
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,120
curriculum or access a course.
That's ridiculous.

1166
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:03,400
It's broken.
What the hell?

1167
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,440
And I think maybe let's, if we
rewind to when I was 23 and a

1168
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,680
bit more bulshy, I would just
simply dismiss this and I would

1169
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:11,960
say we shouldn't be.
It's ridiculous.

1170
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:13,400
Don't use personal devices for
that.

1171
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:14,680
What you know about that's your
problem.

1172
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,400
Why are you?
Why are you relying on personal

1173
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,120
devices?
I'm not, I'm older now and

1174
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,040
actually realistically, they
obviously don't want to be

1175
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,920
relying on personal devices.
And this is another, to me,

1176
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,120
clear example of the government
saying, no, we're going to ban

1177
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,600
this thing because of these
reasons and we're not going to

1178
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,240
implement any support whatsoever
to help you get around the fact

1179
00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:34,320
that it's banned now.
So if you do art and you rely on

1180
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,040
personal devices because of it,
or whatever it might be to rely

1181
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,720
on personal devices in the
classroom, we're going to strip

1182
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:42,520
that away from you now, but not
replace that so you can actually

1183
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,360
do it.
Yeah, I find it's fascinating

1184
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,000
because I think there are
genuinely 2 quite equal ways to

1185
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,120
think about it.
The art analogy, I would go as

1186
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,520
far as saying that that's a
school issue.

1187
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:02,600
You, you you don't need you do
not need personal devices to

1188
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,720
deliver the art curriculum.
No, but you need personal

1189
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:06,600
devices to take pictures of
things because you don't have

1190
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,040
the cameras to do.
You don't need to take pictures

1191
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:09,240
of things you.
Do need to take pictures of

1192
00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:10,760
things in art because it's how
you reference stuff.

1193
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:12,920
I, I, I have had art teachers
comment.

1194
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,040
We can't sit here and say you
don't need to do this thing.

1195
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:16,480
Yeah, yeah.
I've had literally art people

1196
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,560
comment saying we do need to do
this because it's evidence that

1197
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,120
we have to submit for work.
You have to have pictures of

1198
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:22,960
work in progress and children
have to.

1199
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:24,320
And people have to be able to
annotate it.

1200
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:25,640
That's what they do.
So you do.

1201
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,400
Just to be clear, when I said
that I mean I what I was meaning

1202
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,520
was you don't need pupils to
individually take pictures of

1203
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,640
things with their own.
Devices, I think they do, you

1204
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:35,760
can have a class camera, you
don't need 30.

1205
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,320
They don't have it.
That's the point.

1206
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,560
OK, that's, that's So what I'm
saying is now I'm just going to

1207
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,760
make it really clear because I,
we are coming across like we, we

1208
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:43,760
don't work in a secondary
school.

1209
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:44,840
We don't work in an art
classroom.

1210
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:46,680
We're telling people what they
can do and don't need to do.

1211
00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:50,680
Multiple art teachers, and I
mean like 3 or 4 have commented

1212
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,520
specifically talking about art
in the curriculum.

1213
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,640
They say and they say we need
personal devices to meet this,

1214
00:46:55,720 --> 00:46:57,200
this.
I fully trust that they're

1215
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,040
saying the truth.
So I don't want to sit here and

1216
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,120
say you don't need that.
They do because they're telling

1217
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,400
us they do.
And I'm I'm I'm not willing to

1218
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,280
tell them that they're wrong
based on a hunch.

1219
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,200
Yeah, OK, fair enough.
That's, that's completely fair.

1220
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:09,520
So the second line of this
problem is, and it does fall

1221
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,280
back to this then is it is a
systemic problem, then

1222
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,720
absolutely the government need
to step in then if it is truly

1223
00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:18,200
essential and there is zero
other way the school can go in

1224
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:19,080
it.
Because what I was trying to

1225
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,960
imply there was there are
probably some schools where it's

1226
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,640
more a preference and they could
maybe get around it with a

1227
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,320
limited tech, lower tech,
whatever they have for some, for

1228
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,440
some schools and that and that
might be a solution in some not.

1229
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,600
Even some schools, but for some
things, I think there are

1230
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:35,400
definitely some things that you
absolutely need for whatever,

1231
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,600
for whatever reason you need it
for that course and the funding

1232
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,680
of the gap and the gap is being
made-up by personal devices.

1233
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,080
And I'm saying that's wrong and
it shouldn't exist.

1234
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,160
And, and we absolutely need to
fill that gap with government

1235
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:47,280
funding.
I agree with your second point,

1236
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,080
but the fact remains that as
soon as this becomes policy and

1237
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,960
you can't have your phone at all
during the day, that funding gap

1238
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,200
will not be filled in time and
there will be shortcomings in

1239
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,720
curriculums and teachers won't
be able to do things.

1240
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:04,080
And, and I'm just saying is, is
that therefore unacceptable?

1241
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,120
Should that be part of the
exemptions until that gap's

1242
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:07,640
made?
Yeah, it's really interesting,

1243
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:09,840
isn't it?
I mean, what leg do the

1244
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,720
government have to stand on?
Because if they say no, then the

1245
00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:15,560
next question is, OK, we need
funding immediately then or you

1246
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,240
have to accept that the
curriculum is not going to be

1247
00:48:17,240 --> 00:48:18,240
delivered to.
A certain standard.

1248
00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:20,240
And that's the issue that these
people have, that that's their

1249
00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:22,160
push back on this.
And I think it's legitimate.

1250
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:23,960
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's one of
the most legitimate ones I saw

1251
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,920
They were like, if this comes in
place tomorrow, I will not be

1252
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,280
able to do this, this and this,
which means I cannot do my job

1253
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:30,120
properly.
Yeah, yeah.

1254
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,000
And I and it doesn't matter
whether I think that's right or

1255
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:33,040
wrong.
I think we all agree that's

1256
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:34,880
wrong.
But the reality is that that is

1257
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:36,080
what will happen.
Yeah, sure.

1258
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,520
And and therefore they're
saying, therefore, I don't think

1259
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,200
this should come in because of
that reason that to me, we've

1260
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,120
talked about other pushbacks
where we say it pales in

1261
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:45,880
comparison.
There's going to be some con

1262
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:47,760
case bit of an issue, but we
just have to go over it.

1263
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,960
This to me is as close as it
probably gets to me thinking.

1264
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,080
But you know what, it's awful.
But we we need that.

1265
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:59,520
Yeah, we need that.
So, yeah, like you might not

1266
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:01,160
like this because of that.
And I think that's fine.

1267
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:03,880
Yeah, No, definitely.
I think if, if, if there are

1268
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,000
those true cases where there is
absolutely nothing the school

1269
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:07,320
can do, then they're then
they're stuck.

1270
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:09,680
There is nothing there is there
is nothing they can do.

1271
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:10,760
Do you know what I mean?
They're stuck.

1272
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,080
I just, I still think there'll
probably be lots of cases where

1273
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:14,920
maybe resources can be
reallocated.

1274
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:18,280
I think basically most schools
will have at least some access

1275
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,800
to some shared tech or if it's a
or if it's a set of iPads for

1276
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,320
the whole school or more.
And it might just be a case of.

1277
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:26,720
What it'll have to look
different when it.

1278
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:28,840
Yeah, of course.
But there might be some cases

1279
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,440
where it can be more of a
reallocation issue with the

1280
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:32,520
school.
And it's like, OK, the reason

1281
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,400
this this class doesn't have
access to those devices is

1282
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:36,560
because another class is using
it.

1283
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:38,680
And if we had just done those at
different timetables, then maybe

1284
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:39,960
they both could have.
Had it, but that's just more

1285
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:40,960
workload.
I think so as well.

1286
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:42,040
I don't think it's a solution by
the way.

1287
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,200
I think this, this is I would
just, I just want to address

1288
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:45,920
because I think some people
sometimes might listen and

1289
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:47,800
think, oh, teachers think that
everything's the worst thing

1290
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,520
ever and there's no, there's
nothing they could, they do

1291
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,280
everything so perfectly, There's
nothing they could possibly.

1292
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,000
Do no, no.
Fix it themselves and there

1293
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,200
probably are some things.
That's not that that I'm gonna

1294
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:56,560
make it clear.
No one should be thinking about

1295
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:58,120
this because I think I've made
it very clear as well.

1296
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,240
They're saying delivering the
minimum requirement of the

1297
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:01,800
curriculum.
Yeah, this is what we need to

1298
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:02,320
keep.
What?

1299
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:04,440
I feel like we're falling into
the trap here of constantly

1300
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:05,840
saying, well, we could just find
a way.

1301
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,040
Oh, well, we could just do this.
They're saying they can't like,

1302
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:10,600
so I believe them that they
can't.

1303
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:12,800
There's like, there's other
things that I think fall into

1304
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,280
more what you're saying, which
is I've had people say things

1305
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,160
like if they've completed the
past paper in maths, the QR code

1306
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:21,280
and they can scan it and they
can see the walk through of the

1307
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:22,720
video or they can see the
answers.

1308
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,160
And on a personal device,
everyone can do that.

1309
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,480
Now, we don't have personal
devices that would be 1 between

1310
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,000
5:00.
If we wear this personal, it

1311
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,680
wouldn't be as good.
That to me is more akin to what

1312
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:33,800
you're saying here, which is
just like, yeah, OK, well, do

1313
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:35,000
you know what?
You just can't do that anymore

1314
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:36,320
personally.
You will just have to do one to

1315
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:37,560
five.
You have to take the hit there.

1316
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:39,680
That's fine.
I think what you're saying there

1317
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,160
has loads of use cases and
reasons why actually, okay fine,

1318
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:44,800
but it will just have to be a
bit less good because it's

1319
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:46,280
better to not have phones in
general.

1320
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:49,760
I do think there are explicit
situations and I chose the art

1321
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,640
one on purpose because they need
cameras in art where they don't

1322
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,960
have them and the only way they
can do that is through personal

1323
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,040
devices.
That to me genuinely is a

1324
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,480
separate thing to what we can
just find a way around it.

1325
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:01,560
We can just get a different
trolley.

1326
00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:05,280
They're saying they can't.
Like like it's not, it's not a

1327
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,680
preference thing of it's better
to have the individualistic

1328
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,760
answers, feedback on a phone.
It's we literally physically

1329
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:14,040
can't do this because of the
fact we need personal devices.

1330
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:15,760
That's awful.
That needs to change.

1331
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,240
But until the government do
that, and when the government do

1332
00:51:18,240 --> 00:51:20,400
that, I'll be the first person
to say, yes, let's ban phones.

1333
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,560
But they're not doing it.
So I can't get behind it.

1334
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:24,680
I think that's different.
Yeah, I do as well.

1335
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:26,520
I'm I'm really trying to push
devil's advocate.

1336
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:27,280
I think it's good.
It's good.

1337
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,040
I think that the whole the only
tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny issue and

1338
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:35,120
it's a micro issue is I don't
think it is actually like that

1339
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:37,600
legitimate to just assume that
everyone that says they can't do

1340
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:42,600
something has perfectly actually
is like genuinely correct.

1341
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,400
There are obviously situations
in life where someone says I

1342
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,520
can't do something and they are
just wrong because they're just

1343
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:48,960
naive to a solution they didn't
understand.

1344
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:51,840
So all I'm saying is that there
are probably some places where

1345
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,200
schools can internally look at
the situation where the teacher

1346
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,480
saying I literally cannot
deliver this curriculum and they

1347
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:59,920
go, well, actually you think you
can't deliver the curriculum

1348
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:01,000
because the iPads are never in
use.

1349
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:02,360
They're never available to this
time.

1350
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:03,960
But actually if we just reject
the timetable, there's a

1351
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:05,320
solution here that you didn't
you weren't aware of.

1352
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,280
That's all I'm saying.
Do you also accept that there

1353
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,160
are some situations where they
can't?

1354
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,040
Yes.
So, So OK, so now I'm talking

1355
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:13,640
about those situations.
That's cool.

1356
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,320
So, so let's talk about those
situations, whether it's someone

1357
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:17,760
who's written it or not and
you're saying they're right or

1358
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,000
wrong, whatever.
Let's talk about the literal

1359
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,080
situation which we both agree
will exist, where this ban means

1360
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:25,160
you literally cannot deliver a
curriculum anymore.

1361
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:27,320
Is that reason enough to think
we shouldn't be banning it?

1362
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:30,640
Yeah.
Right.

1363
00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:32,440
Yeah, that's the reason.
Basically what I'm getting at

1364
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:36,560
is, is it's as close as it gets
to me where I'm like, OK, is

1365
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,920
this an example of where this is
not a fully fledged out, fully

1366
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,160
thought out thing where actually
do you know what if your

1367
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,560
reasoning is the budget isn't
there for whether it's actually

1368
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,120
giving you the lockers in the
1st place to do it, down to the

1369
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,720
personal devices being relied
upon to deliver a curriculum.

1370
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:55,240
Just banning it is a sticking
plaster to say look what we've

1371
00:52:55,240 --> 00:52:58,120
done.
Taking away that nuance and now

1372
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,960
it's legitimately a legal thing
doesn't allow schools to make

1373
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:03,880
those calls.
So given that, this is really

1374
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,480
interesting because I think it's
my answer, yes, there was.

1375
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,200
I do think it's completely
reasonable for someone to think

1376
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,640
therefore we shouldn't ban it.
Given the information and we

1377
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,240
know this then factually that
there is going, there are going

1378
00:53:13,240 --> 00:53:15,640
to be some schools out there who
are in that literal situation

1379
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,840
where they absolutely cannot
deliver the curriculum without

1380
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:20,920
use of personal devices.
Do you still think we should on

1381
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:22,560
the holistic level?
Do you still think we should ban

1382
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,040
it?
Yes, because I'm a little bit of

1383
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,960
an anarchist in, in personally
where I think we should let

1384
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,560
things break to make a point.
So, so like I, I still think my,

1385
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,640
my point there is that you're
absolutely right.

1386
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:34,720
You cannot deliver it, Don't
deliver it.

1387
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:36,560
Let's see what happens.
And there are people who push

1388
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:38,560
back to me and say, no, it's for
the kids, it's my passion, blah,

1389
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:39,560
blah, blah.
That's fine.

1390
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:41,120
I'm just saying me personally,
I'm an anarchist.

1391
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:43,600
When, when I, when I look at
school funding being cut

1392
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,280
massively and then the outcomes
being teachers have to do more,

1393
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:48,440
teaching assistants have to do
more just to stay afloat.

1394
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:49,960
And it's like, guys, we need
someone to do it.

1395
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,880
My reaction is no, we don't.
We need to show that this is

1396
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,160
unacceptable.
It needs to break to make a

1397
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,160
point that it's broken.
I think that's the only way to

1398
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,360
get through and I think it was
this.

1399
00:54:00,720 --> 00:54:03,200
So my point isn't you're wrong.
You can get around it somehow.

1400
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,240
My point is I think you're
absolutely right.

1401
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,440
Let's let it break to make that
point.

1402
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,680
And when it breaks and they've
try and blame you, tell them and

1403
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:12,040
it's your one.
It's your fault.

1404
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,040
Actually, we told you this was a
problem and you ignored it.

1405
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:16,000
Yeah, I agree.
That's what I was kind of vibing

1406
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:17,600
for that I was hoping you were
going to say that because that's

1407
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,920
very much what I think as well.
Despite thinking it's a reason

1408
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,400
and reasonable reason to to not
want to do it.

1409
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:23,400
I still think we should do it
though.

1410
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,960
I still think with that, even
though that class is now going

1411
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:27,880
to be oh, now I can't take it.
Well, yeah, you can't.

1412
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:29,680
You have to do all the you can
do all the other stuff in the

1413
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:30,960
Quicken doesn't acquire tech.
And you know what?

1414
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:32,480
Realistically, there's still
going to be a huge.

1415
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:34,760
Amount of stuff you can do.
You can't do those bits though,

1416
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:35,560
sorry.
Yeah, and.

1417
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:36,960
And if there's a problem with
that, tell them.

1418
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,520
Because we banned phones, Yeah.
And I rely on personal devices.

1419
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:42,880
Sorry.
I know we said earlier 97% have

1420
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,000
a phone by the age of 12.
Are we OK with the 3% not having

1421
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,720
this personal device to access
their curriculum?

1422
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:53,200
There should be at no point that
personal belongings are required

1423
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,760
to get through a curriculum,
which we're saying is statutory

1424
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:57,840
that you have to do.
Yeah, it's absolutely not that

1425
00:54:57,840 --> 00:54:59,600
that should not exist.
And it, it does exist.

1426
00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:01,880
And that's the issue here.
It does exist.

1427
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:04,080
It doesn't matter ideologically.
We sit here and say it

1428
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:07,520
shouldn't, but it does.
So bands will have a huge impact

1429
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,280
in that respect, whether we
think it should or shouldn't, it

1430
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:11,600
will.
So that's, I think that was the

1431
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,960
best pushback person.
And you know, just just thinking

1432
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:20,160
in general in general now, just
where it lands, I don't think

1433
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:25,680
there will be much difference If
you look at a score after this

1434
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:28,000
is passed from when it before
it's passed, I think there'll be

1435
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:29,720
small differences.
I think there'll be that

1436
00:55:29,720 --> 00:55:34,480
consistency we talked about.
It's weird because I land on the

1437
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,000
fact there won't be much
different, but I also land on

1438
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:38,160
the fact.
Therefore I think it's a good

1439
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,760
thing.
Is there a risk that it's an

1440
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:46,440
ideological want from us to have
this come in place where we both

1441
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:49,320
think, but I'm not going to talk
for you, but in general, I think

1442
00:55:49,720 --> 00:55:52,000
it won't make much of a huge
difference to what we see.

1443
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,680
But it is going to maybe make
make the curriculum

1444
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:57,760
undeliverable for some people,
is going to maybe make some

1445
00:55:57,760 --> 00:55:59,800
children who have mental health
problems and have a director at

1446
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,040
home.
Is there a reality where

1447
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:07,040
actually that does outweigh it
becoming a statutory law and

1448
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:08,440
should it just stick as guidance
then?

1449
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,720
Maybe, but I still think the
probability is way in favour of

1450
00:56:12,720 --> 00:56:14,360
the other way that's.
It so So I'm just going to

1451
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:16,040
finish off by asking you
genuinely because I'm

1452
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:16,920
interested.
Yeah.

1453
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:18,840
Why?
What is it that outweighs?

1454
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:21,200
What is it that by becoming law?
Yeah.

1455
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:25,000
What is it you think that
therefore it out as a good point

1456
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:27,160
outweighs the negatives we just
talked about when it happened?

1457
00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:29,880
Two things for me that the
overarching things, number one,

1458
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,840
it would address that gap, the
other 10%, the other nought .2%

1459
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,280
in primary schools and #2.
So I said at the beginning, I

1460
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:36,560
really wholeheartedly believe
this.

1461
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,240
I think even the schools that
are doing it will really rethink

1462
00:56:39,240 --> 00:56:41,360
their policies and, and snap
them in that whip them into

1463
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,400
shape.
I do think they're limited all

1464
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:44,960
the stuff we said they're
limited by, by funding and

1465
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,120
things.
But I honestly reckon on the

1466
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,560
whole there will be an
improvement in terms of how

1467
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:53,560
schools think about and monitor
and are aware of phone use in

1468
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:55,640
school and the negative impacts
they can have on children.

1469
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,520
And I think it's for some
schools for the first time,

1470
00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:00,840
they'll be thinking about that.
And I, and I, I just think

1471
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:01,960
that's worth it.
I think it's worth it.

1472
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,960
I think the guidance was good.
I don't think making the

1473
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:07,680
guidance 5% better is bad just
because you can barely see any

1474
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:08,280
difference.
Yeah.

1475
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,840
Do you know, I mean in life if
the guidance is good and we make

1476
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,560
it ever so slightly better?
But it's because isn't even

1477
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:14,800
really changing.
It's just becoming law.

1478
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:16,800
Yeah.
So that to me is the I'm just

1479
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:18,480
imagining it, right?
I'm taking it to the M degree of

1480
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:19,440
let's imagine it has to do it
now.

1481
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:21,200
The law only makes what it makes
it 1% better.

1482
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:22,280
It was a waste of time.
It wasn't.

1483
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,240
The guidance was good already
and we just made it a little bit

1484
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:25,320
better.
Hopefully we'll do something

1485
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:26,720
else in the future that makes it
even more better.

1486
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,920
And maybe I think potentially
I'm underestimating the

1487
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:32,280
difference it might make.
That's the other issue I think.

1488
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:34,560
I think it's easy to underplay
and say, well, they state one it

1489
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:36,400
2 differently.
Most, most schools don't have

1490
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:38,520
that actually.
If you really forensically went

1491
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,040
in and and looked at what was
happening in a school, I think

1492
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:44,000
it could make a really big
difference actually.

1493
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:46,840
Which if you just, you know,
peek under and just look more

1494
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,400
carefully, it becomes clear
that, oh actually, yeah, this is

1495
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,640
having a bigger impact.
That even though the cons exist

1496
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:56,720
and are real and are definitely
something where I understand

1497
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:01,680
people's reservations, that
impact is bigger and and overall

1498
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:05,120
let's move towards this.
Not not ignoring the cons trying

1499
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:08,920
to fix them as we go and help on
the way, but overarchingly this

1500
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:10,840
is good to bring in.
Unlike the school then, as we

1501
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:12,360
discussed last week, is step
one.

1502
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,200
Yeah, nothing sold from this.
Stop pretending it is government

1503
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:16,400
police.
Stop saying things are solved

1504
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:18,320
when they're not right.
But it is a step in the right

1505
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:20,360
direction.
And maybe it's a slight culture

1506
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:22,440
shift.
Maybe it's enough of a culture

1507
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,840
shift, right that we that we can
then implement another step

1508
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:30,920
where we really start trying to
get into outside of school time

1509
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:33,240
and start maybe families more
willing to listen now because

1510
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:35,520
they've it's been put in the
public space so much and this

1511
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:37,520
whole culture of no phones at
school, people are starting to

1512
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:39,360
open their ears a little bit
more and go, OK, what's going on

1513
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:41,160
here?
There was that optional thing

1514
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:44,320
about how I can reduce phone use
at home and I wasn't interested

1515
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:46,400
in that year ago, but now I am.
Because the kids have come back

1516
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:47,720
and said, oh, do you know what,
Mum?

1517
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:48,920
It's actually really good,
right?

1518
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:50,640
Oh, wait.
OK, so I'll try and make home

1519
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:53,400
good as well and better.
And yeah, the next step, I think

1520
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:55,200
once this is introduced, make it
law.

1521
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:56,880
Next step, arrest Mark
Zuckerberg.

1522
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,280
Yeah, that's step three.
I can leave you this one final

1523
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:01,560
thing, right?
Because I feel like I have to

1524
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:03,360
address this because it I read
this and I was like.

1525
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,480
See you next time.
No, because it it was a bit

1526
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:07,760
annoying.
I was like, I don't know what

1527
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:09,200
the answer is to this right.
And here, here it is.

1528
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:13,320
OK, A generation of children is,
is now going to be told that the

1529
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:15,600
device that they use to talk to
their friends, organise their

1530
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,400
lives, navigate the world.
Literally we use this tech all

1531
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,720
the time that's so integrated in
our life is now contraband at

1532
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,080
the at the place that they spend
most of their waking hours.

1533
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,520
Yeah.
Whether it's a good policy or

1534
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:29,200
not, it's worth just addressing
the fact that that that is a,

1535
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:32,600
that's an interesting dichotomy.
Like we are this thing that we

1536
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:34,800
use for life now and work and
you'll be using it as an adult

1537
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,520
all the time, your workplace and
this, you can't use it in the

1538
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,080
place you're at most of the time
as as a child is.

1539
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:42,360
Is there any problem with that
messaging?

1540
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:44,680
No, of course.
No, I don't think so.

1541
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:48,400
We'll see you next time.
No, no, we, we we could go to

1542
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:50,360
more detail next time.
My my initial answer is no.

1543
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:53,000
And the reason is because I
don't think something not being

1544
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:55,600
allowed in a certain environment
means that thing is always bad.

1545
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:56,960
Yeah.
You're not allowed your phone in

1546
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:58,640
the cinema.
Why?

1547
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:01,160
Well, so you don't disrupt
yourself and others who are

1548
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:03,840
trying to watch the film.
Oh, but all my family's on my

1549
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:04,960
phone.
You say my family aren't

1550
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:06,120
important.
You say the film's more

1551
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:08,000
important than my family.
No, I'm saying that in this

1552
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,240
environment, the outcomes we're
trying to get in this

1553
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,880
environment does not involve you
having the phone as a

1554
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:14,080
distraction.
So you wouldn't say there's any

1555
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:16,360
confusing messages there that
we're sending to children about

1556
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:17,720
whether phones are good or bad?
Or what?

1557
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:19,840
It's as it's as confusing as we
make it.

1558
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:22,120
Yeah, like if we if we really
explain again, this is the other

1559
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:24,920
thing I say all the time.
Children can be explained too

1560
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:26,720
sometimes like Oh no, they won't
get it.

1561
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:28,960
Yeah, they will just explain to
them why we're doing this.

1562
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:31,000
Explain to them why we don't
we're not saying it's bad.

1563
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:32,640
The teachers will be on their
phone.

1564
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,120
I go home on my phone and we
lots of our businesses on this

1565
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:36,880
phone.
Social media has grown for us

1566
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,080
massively, which is how we reach
you lovely people who listen to

1567
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:41,160
this podcast episode.
This is being released on tech.

1568
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:43,000
It's on Spotify, which you'll
listen to probably now on your

1569
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:45,000
phone.
It is a phone free zone.

1570
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:46,720
We'd never have a spot.
We'd never have this podcast.

1571
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,000
I'm not saying that this is
inherently bad.

1572
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:52,360
I'm saying that in this
environment, XYZ are the reasons

1573
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:53,800
why it wouldn't be great to have
this right now.

1574
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:55,160
But you can have it straight
away after.

1575
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:56,760
There you you go.
You're off to meet your mates.

1576
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:58,400
You have to go to football club.
You need to contact your

1577
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:00,200
parents.
Isn't it amazing that a teenager

1578
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,480
can contact their parents now?
We don't need to go back to the

1579
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:04,320
70s when you found your way home
when it was dark.

1580
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:05,720
It it.
Yeah, it doesn't.

1581
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:07,440
I'm not saying you're going to
be in trouble now if you don't

1582
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:09,560
do that or there's someone
waiting to kidnap you, because

1583
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:12,600
there probably isn't, right.
But at the end of the day, for

1584
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:14,360
those exceptional circumstances.
Hiya, Mum.

1585
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:16,040
Yeah.
Oh, you can pick me up.

1586
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:16,800
Cool.
I'll wait here.

1587
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:19,840
Well said, Well said.
Easiest way to put it.

1588
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,600
Imagine there's a big pile of
poo in the middle of the school.

1589
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:24,760
See you next time.