Ep 188: The Most Common Teacher HATE Comments! (& Why They're Nonsense)

0:00 Hello everyone, Michael bad to another episode of Teacher repeat. My name is Dylan and my name is Hayden, and today we're going to be going through those all Timer 1 liners from people who just hate teachers. Am I going to? Is this going to boil my blood? Maybe, but we're going to do it in a fun way where we read out what a typical teacher hater troll might say, OK, take the piss out of them. Yeah. And why it's funny. Yeah. And then actually try and dismantle it and why it's just embedded in nonsense because you probably can think of a few already. Can we can we rate them on how annoying they actually are as well? Yeah, OK, let's do that. Just like just how how, Yeah. How boiled your blood gets when you actually hear it. In real life, what's the scale like? Not. Not to boil not. Not 100, not 100, not 100, Julie.

0:40 Not to 1000. Not a mathematician, that's. Really precise. That's good, because then we. Yeah, we. Can on a scale of naughty to 1000? And we've got about 1000 things here. So we can, No, we've got about 10, OK. So someone can count as we go through, All right. Yeah. So they have to be all multiples of of 100. Yeah. Because. There's 1000. So what we'll do is we'll read out each one. We'll start with that rating then yeah, OK, I've got reaction, all that, and then like you said, we'll unpick it. So the first one, those who can do, those who can't teach. Look my my got guttural reaction to this is on the scale of nought to 1000, this is honestly like 112. Honestly like 112 roughly people. Will take nothing. That's so crazy girl. I was thinking 100. And 11 genuinely, yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't actually annoy me that much.

1:21 No, because I just it maybe it's because I'm this is true. I can't do. That's why I I can't teach. That's why I quit. Oh man, no, the reason it doesn't get me up is because it's so embedded in like I heard that my whole life. Like when I hear that now, I just think it's banter. It's not even banter though, because some people mean it. Like it's just, it's nothing. It's not, it's not even funny. Like I'm just like it's nothing to me because it's just, it's, it's coming from a place of complete lack of understanding about what teaching is like those who can't do teachers. Like what do you think? Do you think we don't do? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:03 Like, like I got you there. You can't do so you must teach. What do you think we do? I think, I think it stems from more like secondary school subject specialists where we go, ohh, you couldn't do you couldn't do your job in history, so, so you gotta teach you, haven't you? You weren't a very good historian. Well, won't getting the stonks in on the history job. Yeah, yeah. And, and, and I always hear people say this, and I'd love if anyone here listening is a secondary school business studies because that always happens. Yeah, always happens. Someone else be sat in business study, there'll be some bro podcaster who's turned out to have some kind of success in in wealth and business, etcetera, who then goes on and was like, yeah, when I was at school, my business studies tutor, He he never had a business of his own. Why was he teaching business studies? I was like, OK, so, so, so you're, you're kind of logic here is that no one should ever be a business studies teacher because if they're already good at it, they wouldn't be doing it.

2:59 So you wouldn't have had a business studies sense like what you've caught. Of course you need some people to teach some stuff. It it just it seems like nonsense to me. Like my food tech teacher never had a restaurant which means they can't possibly teach me how to cook. It doesn't really make. Sense yeah, it's it's hard because there is some kind of like the analogy is probably more if your business teachers are like if you're if you're a business studies teacher has never had them and ran a business like I do think there is some point to that. Well, in comparison to a business studies teacher who maybe had some experience in business. Before, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because like to to me it's not equivalent to a food tech teacher having a restaurant. Yeah, to me that's equivalent to a food tech teacher not knowing how to bake a a cake. Yeah, sure.

3:42 Like it's a very fundamental level. And I'd be like, well, yeah, actually, as a food tech teacher, you should know how to make an omelette because you're teaching kids how to make. I I don't think the comparison you're making is bad at all because we literally put people on a pedestal who come into primary school teaching who have had a career before, no? No, no, I'm being, no, I'm being really specific about what they are specialist in teaching. Yeah, there is a certain level of what they have to have done in that field, I think to be a suitable teacher. So I'm not talking about going to primary UK. You were, you were a chartered surveyor, then you're going to primary school. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking specifically about if you're a food tech teacher, you should know a basic level of, of, of how to cook food. Sure, right. If you're a maths teacher, you should obviously know a certain level how to do maths, right. And if for any subject, there should be a certain level that that you're at and for business studies like it, it seems to genuinely fair enough that to have been involved in them and run some kind of business or done something seems to be like a fair like, OK, I'll throw it to you. Do you think a business studies teacher can never ever have ran a business in their life and still teach it well? Yeah, yeah.

4:43 That's the thing. That's right. That's where I think it falls down a little bit. I don't think the analogy for business studies is any different from any other subject, genuinely. So so you so you think that a food tech teacher can never have cooked an omelette before and still be a food tech teacher because that then the analogy is not falling apart? No, there's a basic level of way you need to. Be a basic level. Yeah, so your basic level is lower than having. That's it. I don't think the basic level is you have to run a business fine. I think you can conceptually understand how a business works and and teach business studies to 14 year olds. So if you just. Conceptually know how to make an omelette, but you've never actually done one before. You can teach kids how to make. No, I think the bar's different for that one. OK. I mean, I do think, I do think so. I think the bar probably is different for for every single one. I just don't think business is like different. I don't think whatever the bar is for food tech, I don't think it's like proportionally that different to whatever the bar is for business.

5:26 Do you know what I mean? I. Just think. So what's the equivalent of cooking and knowing how to to make? OK, cooking is like, OK you you can conceptually understand cooking what you want. You do have to have at least done it once so that you can model it to the kids. Correct. Why is that not the same for business? Because I don't think you need to have run a business like that's that's a that's a shoot. So you. Don't need to have made. Cooking a OK, cooking an omelette is significantly, significantly simpler than setting up and running a business. Yeah, Like, they're not the same. They're not equivalent. Yeah, I don't know. The restaurant thing is. No, no it's not. The the restaurant thing is the same. They have a business is quite easy. Not really. Like it's easy to do OK, OK, it's easy to go on comedy's house and put in a random name and buy a company name. But like actually running a business is not the. Same as cooking, I think. The restaurant thing is probably was was closer to the analysis. No, because the restaurant is a business that's the same. That's not to do with a food tech thing. You're missing my analogy here.

6:11 The exact thing that qualifies you to do that job as a 50. Nothing to do running a restaurant. Here's a better analogy then. Cooking is what? You have to have been a chef to be a food tech teacher at some point in your career? Yeah, I don't think that's true. Fair. I think you can have just done some cooking at home. Yeah, as long as just a business home. Yeah, literally. So running a small business, maybe that, but not even that. You didn't need to run a small business, right. You could watch some videos. You don't. You could talk to your mates on business. It's different. I'm just, I'm trying to get, you're trying to find an equivalence here. Yeah, Yeah. And you're saying, yeah, just cook at home. So I'm saying yeah, run a business from home. Yeah, yeah. But OK. In the same way of math, it's like you have to know how to do the equation before you do it. You don't have to have any genuinely any actual role in a in a like a certified you. Need to know how to do them and understand the process. Yeah, you need to.

6:52 And do it and be able to do. It, yeah, but I think there's some things. You can solve. The problem some things you can. You can understand how to do them completely, conceptually, Absolutely. That's it. But as a teacher, do you not think the bar is that you should be able to do them? And it's not just conceptual. You should be able to do them, but I think you can prove that conceptually for some things. OK, so so it sounds like you have a different bar genuinely for all the other subjects apart from like business studies? No, no, no, a little bit because. With history, for example, right, if, if you're a history teacher, you should be able to look at lots of different sources, compile an argument, write an essay or a dissertation. Yeah, you should be able to do that. You should be able to not, not just conceptually. You don't have to have done it. No, I think you do have to have done it. If you're a history teacher, you have to have done that yourself And and walked the walk before you expect children who are younger than you to do the same thing.

7:37 Yeah, of course you do. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, you definitely have to. Of course you do. Like if if my if I went into school, my history teacher hadn't written a dissertation on a history degree or or had had not done any writing themselves or any actual proof of understanding sources, citing them, putting them into an argument, and writing long long essays, I'd say you shouldn't be a history. Teacher, OK, so they'll do that in the degree. So that's fine, you'll be fine. OK. But do you think they have to have out in the field, have experience of done that as well? Or do you think doing it in a degree like a business person would, they'll do a business degree to teach business. Do not think that the degree gives them the suitable level of experience of of of the doing. Sure. But I right, but in the in the degree of doing, but if you did business studies as a degree, you've done the business, you would have done stuff that is equivalent to running a business. You would have.

8:21 You would have learned everything you need to learn about business itself and done it. Good, that's fine, you get it. But. They have done it then, so they have done it, yeah. Yeah, because we've, I think the, I think it was fair to establish that you have to have had the degree to teach the subject anyway because that's just not that's. Not true at the minute. Is it not? No, that's the whole point In secondary school, so many teachers, they're not got a specialist in their subject. Yes. Bat around. So. So my point here is there just has to be minimum. And again, look, there are loads for the business studies teacher listening right now. They're like, what? I've never run a business. Yeah. Are you sure you can be great at your job, Right. Because you've gone through the qualifications and the levels and you've done it. You've still done it. Yeah. You've still done the equivalent of yeah, OK, Running a business means you have to do XYZ. And I'm pretty sure on your business studies degree you would have learned about XYZ and written essays about it and done it.

9:03 So let's go all the way back then, because my whole point of this was business studies is not different to other subjects. Yeah. So all that food tech then like what? What? What do you, what's the equivalent? You don't do a degree in food tech. Well, I think there is some sort of qualification. A lot of people go to college. I know my sister went to college and got qualification cooking and they and they did and they did practical, practical cooking because that was part of that. So what I was trying to say was the bar is different for each one in terms of the things you might do. Like it looks different, but like in reality, like you don't like. For cooking, you go and do your degree, you do cooking. So I'm for business. You should do the business stuff. Yeah, but you'll get it through your degrees. But you should still do it. Business studies don't have to put on a pedestal of like, no, I never said that you have to have now run a business. You did. Yeah, you have to now run a business yourself. No, none of these jobs you need to.

9:44 It's good if you have. Yeah, it's good. But you don't need to have been a professional chef. You don't need to have been a historian working for some historian. I don't know the historical charter. You know, you can like the the baseline qualification for that role is is suitable. And I completely it's a different argument to say that sometimes teachers are put into roles where they don't have that qualification. That's just across the board, I think, a problem. Yeah. No, no, no. But what I was not saying, I was not making the point that the the qualification for the job is not enough, right? I was. The point here is I'm saying people do jobs without that qualification. So I'm just making it a neutral thing. Now whether you've done the qualification or not, there are certain things I think you have to have at at a certain level to be a teacher in that exact as a specialist in. Degree, school, and that comparatively. Right.

10:31 And I'm just saying I just, I don't think they are like, I just think that's what I'm saying like in terms of business studies, whether you've done the degree or not, there has to be a certain level where you have done the things you're preaching about. You have literally done them and understood them and and practised them. And that's why if you haven't got, of course, if you do a history degree, you've done all the stuff I said you need to do. But if you haven't, I think you have to be able to prove that you can do that before you're you're good enough to be a history teacher. So that's why I was 112. Yeah, sorry, back to the episode. I forgot A roll of podcast those. Yeah. So those who can do. Yeah, those who can't go and get a business degree teach business. I've got nothing against by the way, I'm just going to say right now this is great, but I'm just saying that that's kind of where it comes from.

11:16 That's the ultimate version is I see a lot of business, which is yeah, to be fair, that's that's in particular 1 and I and I think that there's a reason why it's that one in particular, because if you know how to run a really like, you know, if you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, same thing. It makes it one. You say. It's like, yeah, it. And let me be really clear now as well, it is a different role. And that's why we still need teachers to do it, right? Completely, completely. Because you can still learn about something without being excelling in that role. Yeah. And that's where it comes from. It's like, well, if you were the best at that, you wouldn't be teaching it. That's true. If you were the best at running a business, you wouldn't be doing business studies. Yeah. If you were the best at teaching cooking, you wouldn't be teaching it in a secondary school, you'd be. You'd be off that. You'd be off teaching chefs how to cook.

11:56 Yeah, Yeah, right. If you weren't the best mathematician, you wouldn't be in a secondary school teaching maths. You'd be off applying your maths to something. Yeah. So. So there is a semblance of truth here. I just think it completely disregards the whole profession. That's really important that we need. And as a teacher myself, that's why I just like it doesn't even know it. Just ignore it. I'm just like, yeah, yeah, you're an idiot. They're different things. Exactly that, 100% I, I think that's really true. The semblance of understanding why that, why that analogy came about. But ultimately, like, some people also just want to teach. Yeah. And it's like, and to completely, like, make them feel like crap over this. It's just so like some people legitimately are like, I want to go and get this degree because I really want to be a teacher and I like this subject. I'm going to marry them together. And I want to teach that subject to kids.

12:36 And like, that's completely legitimate. Like we shouldn't just some. Of my favourite teachers were my food tech teachers and I'd never dream of even questioning them for a second because they were with young children teaching them how to cook, which is what's an important life skill. Yeah, it's vital. Well, you're, if you're already good, you'd be in the Michelin star restaurant teaching the chefs how to do it. But they're not. They're here because it's helpful, so. And, and, and also, I don't even want to do that. Yeah, exactly. Some people it's legitimate as well to be like, yeah, I probably, it'd be, it would actually be legitimate for someone to be in a position where it's like they are actually qualified enough to do that and they just don't want to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And be like, that's not even unheard of. Like you could be good enough to go and work that, but I don't want to. It's a horrendous environment. I'd rather just be here completely. Anyway, next one ready. Go on. I'll do it. I pay your salary, so I have control and my point of view is important. And I pay your bloody salary.

13:23 So you listen to me, Mr I pay your bloody salary. Like a 300 for me is it? I find it a little bit triggering when it comes to the context of all of the. Stuff you just said. I think just saying I pay your salary is like is like. Mine's mine's zero. Yeah. But OK, the whole context of this is that the people teaching so 703 for me. 703 yeah, really. Why is it so high for you? Because it's, it's such a sense of entitlement, as if everyone doesn't pay for everyone. Yeah, as if for some reason, because it's from taxpayer money, like. Oh, Now, therefore you're my servant and you shall do exactly what I say. No, I'm sorry. I'm the specialist. Shut up. Doesn't matter where this comes from. Sure. Yeah, OK. You pay great. I could just pretend that my mum pays for me and not you. There you go. I could walk into a shop and spend £300 and then tell the person exactly I pay your salary because I contributed a tiny amount of that salary.

14:10 That's my point. That's exactly my point. Because even in the private sector, yes, everyone pays someone's salary. Yeah. So your customers pay the customer's always, right? Yeah, but I'm pretty sure in your own job as well, you get annoyed when customers say that to nonsense. Yeah, that's similar, isn't it? The customer was right. And I pay your salary. That's the same part. Well, I'm a paying customer here. Sure. Why don't you necking? No, because you are wrong. Still, I pay your salary. What's your point? Because the only point they make when they say I pay your salary is therefore you're below me. Yeah, I pay your salary. So you better wound your necking and listen to what I've got to say. Because I pay your salary. There's no no one's saying this going. I pay your salary. That's brilliant. That's nice, isn't it? They're only doing this as a way to try and belittle you. Yeah. And put them on a pedestal above you. So listen to me and then and and then who says this to you if someone says it's you from an insurance company? Well, yeah, I pay your salary, mate. I've got house insurance and car insurance and home insurance. Yeah, home and house insurance double paying. But yeah, I pay your salary as well. What's your point?

15:08 I'm paid to deliver a role as a specialist. Shut up. Yeah, I'm not going to come into your job and tell you how to do the insurance. Probably you do Probably. If you're doing it really badly, maybe I'll have an opinion, but I also don't know that much about insurance, so I'm going to just leave it to you. Yeah, it. Seems like a scammer, don't it? Yeah, I'm going to pay insurance. And if I ever want to take money out, you're going to put my insurance up massively to cover the cost. Oh, it's it sounds like I'm just paying you money every month. Yeah. What we need to do is think of comebacks for every single job that's in the same line as that. I pay a salary that's a do we just need to have something? Do you know what I mean? Have you always wanted to be a scam artist to an insurance broker? Don't really think that, by the way. So please don't get annoyed. But like, I don't think it was. I don't think people want to be a scam artist, but I think insurance. Is no, I think they just enable it through taking a salary from them and get get get paid in Commission. Yeah, the more they RIP someone.

15:55 Off Well I think you enable left woke beta male teachers. You'll love something that's coming up later. Propaganda. You'll love one of those. We'll go. Later in this. All right, we'll stick around for that one. We're not going to. Do it right now so in 10 months you're hooked in. I pay salary, piss off. Yeah, bet 9. Yeah, BET9700700. 3 isn't that one? Then how do you feel about this one? Go on, working 9:00 to 3:00 and having every weekend off must be wow nice. It's lovely, thank you. It's lovely. And you pay it for me. Yeah, crazy. You only work. For me, thanks for paying me. I have to buddy work 8 till 5 and I don't get every weekend. I don't get how many weeks holiday do you? Get Wait a minute, it sounds like you would love teaching. Yeah, yeah, come. Along my God's a reaction working night to free and having every weekend off again.

16:37 Personally this doesn't annoy me anymore because I just think it's just complete nonsense. To me this is like a 207 really. It triggers me more. You know, I think that's like 500 in the middle, really. Maybe 501 go one side. Yeah, 501. Closer to complete mental breakdown. Yeah, yeah, I suppose because I just, it really irritates me that someone can have such a misunderstanding of the role of teaching and say it so nonchalantly. And I was like, shut up. I just want to say shut up, you know, what are you thick? That's what I want to say to those people. You can't because you've got to come rude. I can't have the podcast, obviously. To every single one of them. Of course. Of course. Yeah. Because you don't see them. Yeah. Just come down much later. Exactly. Feel like you're saying it to What are you going to do 9 till 3 every weekend off? Like, why are you making such a presumption? Yeah.

17:19 And also like it shows how ignorant you are because honestly, 10 seconds off just looking into this first of all shows you that no one's even doing contact time 9 till three. It's like half 8 till 3:15 anyway. Oh, it's only 45 minutes I thought. Yeah, it just goes to show you already wrong. Even if it was just contact time that teachers did, which isn't we can go into the whole thing. You're just already wrong. And it anyone who says something like this doesn't actually care about the truth. They they can't care about the truth because it would be so easy to debunk what they're saying as nonsense that if they haven't debunked it themselves, they don't care and they don't want to know, which I think is why I'm less triggered by it because I'm just like, oh, you are just a complete moron. There is nothing we can do.

18:03 And when like what gets me as some, as you know, we've got social media now. It's actually a Facebook comment. By the way, we've got like 55,000 followers on Facebook. I don't go on Facebook. So if you're from Facebook, Hello, cheers. Yeah, thank you. It just cross posts but every now and then I'll go on just to check, just to see. Yeah, what's going on in the comments? And there was a comment along this line, but it was within, there was like hundreds of comments in this row we did. And the vast majority of obviously teachers going like, it's ridiculous. I, I get in at half seven every day and leave at 5:00 and I still have stuff to do in the evening or at the weekend along those lines of like, oh, a person doing the job who's experienced it, who's just telling you what they do hundreds of individual times on their own. Yeah. And someone commented going, oh, it's just nonsense.

18:45 I know a teacher only works there. It's 9 till three, Like, oh, well, it's so easy. Like what you're moaning about. I'm like, there, there are hundreds of examples as to why you're wrong around this comment that you put in and you still hold on to it like, well, I think this and I'm the main character in life, aren't I? So what I say goes, you're wrong and an idiot. Yeah, people that use their very, very limited pool of examples of of anything to justify their entire thought process or something that is is baffles me always. Can I link this to another one then? Because this is another one that we get, maybe we can rate it as well. But it's, it's very much linked to what I've kind of gone on to here. Yeah, I know you a teacher who's lazy, so you all must be.

19:26 That is it, isn't it my? Brother's a teacher and he gets in at 8 and leaves at 3:15 every single day and doesn't do any work. OK. That's do you know what it could be true, yeah, but. Probably. Probably. I'm sure. Of course there'd be someone like that. Yeah. Of. Course, but then it's like, so you're all lazy. You know what you're moaning about you. Can do that or even not you're all lazy. So I don't know what you're all doing wrong, right. You could all do this right, but as if the bar then gets to be like that's too low in terms of like I can always guarantee if you're getting, if you're just going in precisely for contact time stuff's not getting done. I'm sorry, it's not, it's not. I'd be blown away, someone said. Someone show me a good example of teacher really fulfilling that full potential of their role and doing those out is not possible. No, it's not.

20:06 That doesn't even do you know what actually it goes against the contract. Yeah, you have to. Because the contract literally says directed time and reasonable hours outside the whole reasonable things where we argue a lot. Yeah, So we have to do something. You've got to do something. So that person's just not even. They're just not. You're glorifying someone just not even doing the job properly. Yeah, that's not doing us any favours as teachers. Yeah, let's not set the bar of don't do the job properly, right. That's like saying, Oh my mate, the worst insurance, he only works from 9:00 to 11:00. Yeah, his contract is 9 till five. He just decides to go home early and using that as the bar to set to all other insurance brokers. Like, yeah, he does 2 hours a day. What are you lot doing get? Scamming. Come on. Yeah. Come on, you're putting on unnecessary works. No, he's just leaving early. Yeah, he's breaking his contract. I get something similar and it actually triggers me.

20:48 This is off the list. I'm gonna add something to it because it's the other way around. It's not from a teacher hater. I get a lot from teachers who will say something like I saw a video, I can't remember who it was, I can't remember who it was, but I'm not trying to dig anyone out. But it was a video and it annoyed me because the video was a little known fact about teaching. Teachers are, are only paid for their directed time and anything they do extra is not paid for and it's extra work that they shouldn't be doing, right? And I was like, you are wrong, but you are wrong. We, we, we spend 99% of our time defending teachers and saying lots of go above and beyond. But anyone who says teachers are only paid for directed time and therefore should only do directed time are wrong. Yeah, because it it could not be more clear in the contract and we can talk about whether we think the contracts are ridiculous or not and we can have a really good conversation. And I think we probably agree that that little bit in the contract which says you need to do your director time and additional reasonable hours is nonsense because it's vague, but it does exist.

21:46 It is in there. It is in there. So when you say like teachers work extra for free, we actually don't. Like part of our salary is director time plus another part of our salary is reasonable extra hours. And that's involved in the payment. So it it, it's not helpful when people say just do directed time and then go home. And that'll teach them that isn't your contract. You know what would be helpful? And this is where I think we need to all get on the same page, directed time. And then we all define reasonable together. And even if we just say it's one hour a day that that would quickly get eaten up because it could be in lunchtime, which is not directed time, could be after school, which when you do marking or a bit of extra planning when PPA overruns. Yeah. Or in the morning, if we all agree. Yeah, whatever it might be, if we all agree let's do an hour extra, that is then definitely within the contract. It also says in the contract, no one else can dictate to you what reasonable is.

22:35 Yeah, so they can't say that's not reasonable. You can say, well actually look at my contract, yeah, it says reasonable hours and you can't be dictated to what reasonable hours are. And I'm pretty sure the number 5 is ours. So yeah, yeah, yeah. I've done five of them, Yeah. And I've said it's reasonable. And actually, do you know what my whole colleague circle has as well? Yeah. And we're all doing one hour extra and then we go off. That's good. Yeah. So that triggers me the other way. And it doesn't help when you get people who are saying things like, oh, it's nice just working direct to time, isn't it? And then you also get teachers saying, yeah, let's just do that. Let's just get some kind of middle ground, please. Yeah, good one, good one. Next one. Most of what you teach is pointless. Interesting that one.

23:18 Doesn't trigger me. No, I was going to say that. That genuinely doesn't trigger me. Someone said that to me. I'd be like, OK, let's talk about that. Excuse me? It's not pointless. Thank you and I shall go back to teaching the active passive voice. Yeah, I'll be doing a rivers to be fair, but. Fair enough. Well, I think I think Rivers is less pointless than active voice. OK, God's sake. Here's where it does trigger me right, is when people use examples where I don't think it's pointless when there's particularly when it comes to like maths or core subjects and they say, they say teach them that particular insert math thing is pointless because they won't use that. I've never used Pythagoras when I've been older. People love that one. I haven't. Yeah. No, I haven't. I've. Used it to solve logic puzzles. There you go in my. Own free time. Completely necessary. I just think there's deeper pedagogy, of course, problem solver. There is deeper pedagogy too.

24:04 Why we do all the things we do in in terms of in maths if we're talking about to my maths. Well, I don't use Pythagoras before, no, but let's just think the logical process of understanding how to go about something and going about a problem and not getting the right answer, then trying again and then understanding certain rule set and then applying that. You do that all the time. Yeah. And honestly, right. If we actually stopped at where the general bar is in terms of what you might need for just general, very, very basics in jobs. Let's stop at you too then. Yeah. What? Oh, yeah. I don't. I also, I don't use triangles in my job. OK, cool. When I teach kids about triangles, I don't. Yeah, I don't use that. I don't use year 6 algebra. Yeah. So you probably do, by the way. Yeah, because algebra is probably the most right In my opinion, algebra is the most widely used, but.

24:46 People think that though because because they don't see in their life. May plus, that's my point. My point is that it's the most abstract thing when you just look at it as a whole and easy to say you never use it. Yeah, but actually you probably use that way more than knowing what a dodecahedron is. Yeah, so, but let's go back to the actual point and what's triggering most of what you teach is pointless. I have an issue with the word most because if I think about my primary school timetable, well, half it's English and math straightaway, and then the afternoons are art. Not pointless. Yeah. Not pointless to teach art, of course. Not pointless. Yeah. What do you mean? Are you defining a point by it can make me money in a job that I'm going in? The job specifically only I want as well. That's not even about everyone else. So from year 2 we should put everyone in the box like engineer, Carpenter, TikTok influencer, YouTube footballer and they only learn and they only do that. Like I'm obviously not like like so when it says most I'm like it's just not.

25:37 Yeah, that I feel like people will use the word pointless retrospectively, right. Exclusively that Yeah, it's like OK when I'm. A Pythagoras professor? Yeah. Do you, like, use it all the time? Yeah, Actually, I'm a business studies teacher. Yeah. Uses business studies called constantly. It's like, OK, we can all retrospectively when we're 40 and we're kind of deep rooted into a job or career, whatever, go back and go for a checklist of everything we they ever learned at school and be like, oh, I didn't use that, that, that, that and that. But to suggest that we can then go back in time and tell people like, well, don't do these things because that going to be pointless for you is absurd. Yeah. And like, you could look, you could look back at it. You're absolutely right, because I could look back at what I did. And there were lots of people who say something like, drama is pointless.

26:18 Yeah. And like, if you actually look at my job, like you could probably say, Oh yeah, it's pointless because you're not an actor. But really it was the opposite of that. Yeah. It really helped me in general just build confidence. And then that has gone on to build me up in other ways where I could put on a show for the children and teach and do things like this and social media videos and, you know, talk on a podcast. Exactly. So I think it's just, it's never, you know, A to B, like you don't use this exact Pythagoras theorem that you learn, therefore that's pointless. It's like there's, there's so many nodes and strands that come off learning things like that. Yeah. Which in the long run impact you positively, even in the way that isn't naturally, you know, abyss straight away. Definitely, definitely.

26:58 So what did we give? Did we give that on a rating? I felt like we didn't. What was it again? Most of it. Most of it. The teachers might not because I think be really honest, I think quite a bit is pointless. Yeah, yeah, I do. I I I've said before I've I've stood in front of a class knowing this is the lesson I have to teach and thought why am I doing this? But does that, does that just break our analogy of like, you think it's pointless because you don't think any of those kids? Are going to do that thing? No, no, because because I'm I'm looking at the. My point here is that I know my class. I'm in front of them and I know that actually I could just read a story to them and there'd be other people who say that's pointless, okay. But for my class right now, actually, it would just be so much better for them just to get engrossed in this story. And yeah, okay, I can't decide what isn't pointless, but it doesn't mean just because it's hard to individually say that the the the end point of your logic is nothing is pointless then because it might be good for one person. Yeah, yeah, I do think some stuff's pointless. OK, I think pointless is a really strong word. I think maybe maybe the word pointless isn't right. OK, what we're talking about better stuff I could priority. I'm thinking priorities, genuinely. Yeah, some stuff is.

27:56 It just shouldn't be the priority right now. Like it's in fact it's so low on the list. It's not pointless because there might be 1 kid who likes this thing, but it's significantly lower than all these other things. I think that's probably where I'm trying to. Get yeah, no, that's fine. That, that, that makes way more sense, yeah. All right, another one ready. All teachers do is just complain and moan online. Pretty much, yeah, it's true. And zero. Yeah, no rage right there. Yeah, I can't really argue with the fact that every reel we ever put out, the ones that go viral are the ones that where we're moaning about something. So clearly people like it. It's not all we ever do. I'm actually going to do a quick call out for a couple of people not call out, shout out, call out. Sounds like I'm calling them out for doing something bad. They're not they're doing something good positive. We've we've, we've watched them for a while while I have anyway, because you don't do social media really. And I like their content.

28:39 It's very positive. It's like day in life. Here's what we got up to. It's like very upbeat. So like it kind of goes against what we're saying of social media in, in general. Absolutely. Kind of like a negative money place. And we met them at the National Literary Trust Gala that we were. That's a mouthful, isn't it? Yeah, that is that we were invited to because that's 4 takes before this. We had to stop because you're. Gonna be saying Natural History Museum, National Literary Trust. We met them at the at the gala and it was Mr we met Mr Hallahan, we met the Geordie teacher and a bunch of loads and loads of people are there. And but those two I've personally followed for a long time and they're just really positive, Yeah, really positive outlook on the job. And it's really nice to see. And it is unfortunate that, you know, no go turbotry is seen as booming.

29:25 Honest, honestly, I do think there's a there's a scope here just to grow up a bit, you know, in what way, in the way of that. If you just see someone complaining about something, No, it's realism. It's being realistic. If something's broken, we use our platform to talk about it so other people can realise that it's not just them experiencing this. Yeah, actually, it's a widespread thing. They don't usually need to internalise whatever it is that's awful. They need to understand everyone else is going through it as well. Not only is that shared experience genuinely, in my opinion, enough to justify doing it, but then on top of it you can provide solutions on what you can do to help. Yeah, definitely. So I, I think it's, it's realism. Mr P did a real recently about about this thing or people.

30:08 People say, oh, you're moaning online, etcetera. It's like, well, no, I just use my platform to talk about things I think are important. Yeah. And when I say grow up, I mean, there are some people out there who just think this isn't all lovely and roses and and smell like daisies and fantastic. So it's bad. You shouldn't be doing this. It's bad for the profession. I just think they need to grow up a bit. Right, OK, They think that we should glaze the profession. We shouldn't talk about the negative things because being moany and negative is worse than truth. Completely. And I was like, it's just realistic. And you know, Omar, who did the episode with unofficial teacher's manual, the author, that book. Yeah, yeah. He did a comment actually and tagged us. And his comment was basically like to Mr P was saying if you're negative, then so am I. And so I teach the repeat.

30:50 Yeah, yeah. But and then his whole comment was about how it's not negative. It it doesn't. Just because something isn't nice doesn't mean it's a bad thing to talk about. I think it can be good to share those things. So. So when someone says all teachers do is mine online, you've been very vocal before of saying you think that the interpretation of the job is really important. So do you think that we go too far? I I don't think so. I don't think we go too far. I think criticism and moaning also just get completely banded together as if there's no difference. Like as if we can't critique something without just oh, negative moaning teachers is like, can you just listen to the critique I just gave and said like and just see if you agree with him. We have a talk about it discussion. Like it doesn't have to just boil down to oh, just moaning about nothing. Well, actually, there was a valid point that I was talking about. Sometimes we do moan, everyone moans and sometimes it's a scale that moaning might be less justified. You're just having a bad day and you moan about something that really isn't that bad on your day at work or whatever. That is good old classic moaning. But most of the time though, it's not that. And the only thing I'd say like with us that just gets me a little bit is just, is purely the fact that online when it comes to clips and reels and things like that, I, I think because the, the critiquing negative Emoni ones, whatever you want to call it, generally do better and go more viral and people listen to them longer.

31:59 I worry that people get the interpretation that we have nothing positive to say because they're not the people that aren't. If you're consuming our long form podcast, I think I like to think that we're quite fair and we have we talk about a lot of positive things, but I do worry sometimes it panics me that people are just does it panic you not not panic. I just, well, it does it in a way because I because I care about what the way I come across. That's my point. You seem to care more about that representation. Yeah, I do care about it. I think it's important to me. I guess self, just me, selfishly. So I wouldn't want people to form an opinion because they've watched seventeen of our reels and they just happened to all be things that they just think maybe are just on the scale of money, some inconsequential, some more consequential. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard on social media because it's not a case of it's not even a case of if you follow us, you see every video we post.

32:43 Yeah, it's not how it works. No, it's just not how it works. Like we we can put a video out there that will genuinely get 3000 views, right? Got nearly 70,000 followers. You'll get like 3000 views. We'll put another video out there that will get a million. Views. Yeah. Mental. So it's it's you know, it's almost like followers is becoming like a vanity metric online where actually, you know, it's just what people watch and and listen to and go all the way through about skipping past. Yeah, the algorithm learns that it's something people are watching. It pushes it out there even more. Exactly. So, you know, absolutely someone's experience of us online could just be our six most watched podcast clips, which I can probably guarantee are. I was going this thing in education is just completely broken.

33:26 I can think of one that we still get likes for all the time, 2 rather that we did recently. One was about how you have to accept you're letting your kids down as a teacher because the system's broken, and to get through it and not be broken by the system you just have to accept that you personally can't do enough. And the other one was about how teaching assistants pay is dreadful on paper. Right, and this is where I kind of disagree with you. They are both negative things. The the teaching system is completely broken. You let your kids down all the time. The pay is disgraceful for teaching assistants. They're exploited. They are, they are negative things, right? I don't care if that's the only two things people see from us because I put it out there for a reason, because I want people to see it. So if if they're looking at going, oh, these guys are always bloody negative, that's I don't see it as a problem. I see it as a them problem.

34:09 So I don't care if you think that because I think they're two really important messages to get across that I thoroughly believe in. So it doesn't bother me. Like if things are being pushed out there, it's because they're, it's because people want to watch it. It's because people are literally consuming it. It only gets pushed out there if people are taking it in and reading it. And most of the time they're completely agreeing with us. So if someone, my point here is if someone looks at it and goes, why are you so negative? I'm like, mate, that's a you problem. It's not negativity, it's realism, and it's what a lot of people want to hear. OK, so rating then. So if I find because of my personal reaction to it, which is clearly very different to yours, I find when people talk about all teachers do is moan and complain like that really gets me. That's like 800 and 851 like. Yeah, I'm like, I'm like 7. Yeah, really down there.

34:51 That didn't bother me, like, like because I'm like, yeah, we do that. What would annoy me is go on to be like, if someone said you should only talk about positive stuff. Yeah, 1000. I just find it undermines everything. It's all if someone, when someone comes to the conclusion that all teachers do is moan and complain online, it just, it annoys me so much because it because it undermines every single valid argument and point people are trying to make about teachers because it's all just banded together now and that's just what they think. And that annoys me that someone comes to that conclusion. That's an M problem. Though, I know, but it really frustrates me that they get to that conclusion. It's not. It's not. But like, we wouldn't be making these videos if we weren't trying to change people's minds and make a bit of a difference. Like so that the idea that someone's immediately closed off to it really pisses me off. But I don't think those people would be or not because those people will see positive and go. I've seen people before going, oh finally at last you're not bashing SLT.

35:38 It's like at no point was I bashing all SLT. Like people have these, they already formed these. You could have the most clear video in the world saying people in leadership who are toxic and do this thing are bad people and there would still be someone who goes you hate SLT. You're a dead brain because it's not what I said and it's not my responsibility. I can't be more clear than the video I posted. If you comment something underneath that is just literally not what I said in the video. That's just, it's not a me problem. Yeah, if someone just thinks like, oh, it's just so negative all the time, you can think that. That's fine. It's not my responsibility to make you not think that. Whatever. I don't care. Still triggers me though. Yeah, still trigger me. That's fine. So. Here's another one. This one's a very good one.

36:18 Get a different job if it's that bad. OK, this triggers me. Yeah, District, this is like 874. Wow, nearly the 9 hundreds. No, it triggers me a lot because I know how much of a problem it is that we are haemorrhaging teachers like so. So when people say why don't you just leave, it's like a double whammy. Yeah, yeah. It's like, firstly, you're an idiot if you think you can't complain about something without getting to the point of leaving. And actually when I was teaching, I was complaining about it a lot because I wanted it to change, because I didn't want to leave. The the goal of me talking about it was that I did not end up leaving. So when someone says why don't you just leave, it annoys me because I'm like, I know I could just leave. I don't want to. That's the point.

36:59 That's why I'm saying it's bad and why they can fix things because there are very, there are lots of redeemable things about teaching. There's loads of things that piss me off about teaching. So I'm going to talk about them because I want to stay. And then the double whammy is why don't you just leave? Lots of people are and I also want to stop them from doing that, which is why I'm doing it. Just why I'm talking about it. So it's like it really triggered. Me there is 1/3 whammy to this, which is something you said a lot, so I'm surprised you didn't say it right then. Is that so many people to them Like they're you saying that it's just like they're thinking, yeah, I want to and I literally just can't exactly. I can't like not everyone. Like it's so silly to just think that everyone can just up and silly, silly. I can just up and leave their job because I don't like this anymore. I'm quitting tomorrow. So come on. Like the reality for most normal working people is you cannot do that.

37:44 You're tied into a mortgage or rent or somewhere. You can't just take some crazy financial risk like that. Some people can. That's great. Yeah, cool. A lot of people can't. And you just saying why don't you just quit then is really not helpful as you. Make the answer and the answer because I've got a mortgage bills. Yeah, yeah. So it's a job between those three things. I agree. By the way, I find this, it's really tricky. And why don't you just quit? It's just so like for those three reasons, it's just so wrong. I'm like, come on, Like just think about what you're saying a bit more. Do you want everyone to quit? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's always my favourite. Well, I had this, I had this argument with my stepdad years ago, right. Like we, we always debate about running stuff like this and you'll never be on my real dad. Yeah, that doesn't end up like that. But he was like, Oh yeah, you're just, I think we're actually talking about nurses at the time.

38:25 And then it kind of went on to teachers as well. Were you a teacher at this point? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it went on to you. Yeah, yeah. I think it was around the time of like nurse strikes and teachers strikes and public, just public service strikes. And it was all up in the air. And he's like, oh, do you know what? If the job's that bad, just go and get another one. And it just, I hate that argument so much. I'm like, cool, OK, imagine if everyone took your advice. Imagine if they all just did that. What what the hospital was going to run by fairies. Like, what do you think is going to happen? No one's going to educate our kids. How about we focus on fixing the problems that making everyone want to quit rather than just telling them all to go and get another job because, you know, that's not a solution. It's dumb. It's not a real solution. And that's what I said to. Them it's the same thing when people say like flippantly, like, you know, when they talk about how long the summer holidays are and stuff, well, they get loads of time off.

39:12 Just make them come in for another 4 weeks. I was like, OK, let's just ignore every reason why. It's just ridiculous what you're saying. Let's just say that happened. Yeah. And we got to the point we were like, OK, yeah, four extra weeks. OK, one of two things needs to happen. You pay the teachers for the extra 4 weeks that they'll be in work for the extra directed time, right? So that won't happen. No. Right. Or it remains the same amount of pay and you just expect them to work more for some reason, Despite that being completely ridiculously backwards thought that would never apply to any job ever. You do more work, please, for the same pay. OK, I will leave. And then there'll be a Max exodus of teachers and then you won't have enough teachers to teach the children. So it's like, OK, which one of those situations do you want?

39:52 It costs way more or you don't have enough teachers because that's what will happen when you make that change. And there is people who can't think past the end of their nose because they're so far up their own backside that they just think bloody teachers. I could just say this thing because it will make old people get really up for it and say they're really bloody lazy. And I'm going to put it in the Daily Mail tomorrow. I'm going to say lazy teachers when I work for my and it work, it'll work. It'll get people saying it, but but if you actually just follow through with what would happen, it would be. It's a logical thought trend. Do you think there's a middle ground though? Genuinely, based on everything we just said, where people might think, yeah, just do the one, We don't pay them more because like we've just established, there won't be a mass exodus because so many, too many people are just tied into the job. They won't be able to leave.

40:34 They'll just be horribly unhappy instead. Some somewhere, but it'll push some to leave. It'll push some to leave who are on the edge of doing. It'll just say, do you know what? It's not worth my yeah, it's not worth your health. And no, not even if they can. They'll just take a pay cut and survive, right? Because there are some people who can but choose not to. Like can is such a loaded word here. Like there are some people who will obviously who could just go and get another job and take even like a 10 to 15 grand pay cut. There are some people who could do that and have a lower quality of life. I'm not saying it wouldn't affect. Yeah, they'd have massive. Sacrifice, I'm not saying yeah, I'm not saying it wouldn't affect them, but they can do that. So it what I'm saying is for a lot of those people that would just tip them over to be like, it's not life anymore. Yeah, I'd rather go and have a much less stressful job. It won't have the same quality of life, but I won't be as stressed. And to me, that's worth the money. Yeah, it'll, it'll tip people over the edge and. They weren't think of that before, but now they are. Exactly that it'll tip people over the edge, but it will also have a detriment on recruitment.

41:20 It'd become it'd become far less true, far less job like appeasing job. Yeah, we're already struggling. With that's the biggest argument I think that. Yeah, it'd be both, but it would just make some people more leave who wouldn't? Because there will be some people on that line who are should I, Should I, Oh my God, I will now. And they'll just take the hit and then recruitment went and then give it four or five years. Yeah, nonsense. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So that's quite a triggering 1 then Quite a triggering. One quite triggering and dinged go on crack on you. Did one good job, all right. Teachers are just brainwashing the next generation with personal politics. This is actually honestly like 907 really. This really triggers. Me into the 9:00. Hundreds. It really triggers me. Is it because you are doing that and you hate being pulled out?

42:01 You heard it here. First, because I want my lefty WOKI beta liberal agenda to be out there to the masses. That's why. Yeah, like, let me do it. Yeah, it it really triggers me. Is it? Is it triggering? Because again, like the other ones, they're just so far from the truth as to what's happening in schools or. It, yeah. Is that a bit really There's there's like there's so many, there's so many reasons why it triggers me, which why amalgamates, that's one of them. Yeah. I think that you see the odd article in GB News Online of something that is genuinely bad, right? That is genuinely maybe the example of a teacher going too far of the personal beliefs with the class and I would say that's bad practise. You should do it where?

42:43 No matter where my politics lies. Of course, which? Obviously happens in every job ever. By the way, just to clarify, teachers, I'm perfect, right? That's my point I was going to make is this is you. You see that? And the thing that triggers me is when people go say our kids are bloody ruined in this next generation. Yeah mate, I have taught for 10 years and it does not happen where? I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all, but to suggest that therefore it's happening everywhere is just stupid because you've seen one thing and what it is, is you want to believe that this is happening everywhere. So you see one example, you see, see that's happening everywhere. It's ridiculous. It's not. It is not. This kind of indoctrination is not happening everywhere.

43:24 That's one reason why it annoys me. Another reason I'll throw this back to you is the definition of indoctrination for some other people will just be ridiculous and it's not indoctrination. For example, there'll be some people if they walked into a school and they saw some kind of poster or something on the wall which was about welcoming everyone, everyone's welcome here. Or even something as specific as we don't stand for anti racism, right? There are some people who look at that and go bloody indoctrination shouldn't be in schools. And that's the other thing that really, really triggers me. It's like you're you're you're a you're an idiot. Yeah, there's not, there's not there is a big, there was a big thing in America recently where it was basically pushing back against everyone.

44:13 Malcolm. There was just a post saying everyone welcome and there and there was a big, big push back from parents saying it's indoctrination. You shouldn't be saying stuff like that because their interpretation of that. And it was the whole thing with with trans ideology racism. Border. Control everything you can think about because they saw the words everyone welcome. Which is just a nice thing to have in a school, by the way. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's a school. Come in, everyone's welcome. We make this. They saw that and they were like, oh, that's political. That's brainwashing. You shouldn't be teaching kids. You shouldn't be teaching. Kids that everyone's welcome. That's mad, isn't it? Yeah, that's just got so far down the line of of that's why I get annoyed division, isn't it? Yeah, that's crazy to me. And it do you know what's more annoying is the fact that I can. I understood so quickly why people would think that as well. I mean, I didn't I I like I'm so I'm so attuned to the the madness of the world right now that I could immediately think of four reasons why a bunch of parents in America, yeah, particularly would be looking at being. That's not true because it got based all the things you just said because they don't like the trans move and they don't. Like think, are you saying paedophiles are welcome? No, Yeah, yeah, that's.

45:17 Legit, but that's in my head. I'm like, oh, I reckon they think that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's what I. Mean I'm like, that's not fair enough. That's mental. Yeah, they're mental. These people are crazy. Yeah, of course everyone in this school is welcome. Everyone which is all of the people here, they're all welcome. That's what that means. It means everyone coming into this school right now, which, yeah, by definition is the people that go to this school. You can think of the worst person in the world, right, And apply that and say you should see you're you're saying that if Hitler was around now, you'd be welcoming me. Oh my God, like nonsense. Like that's where then I'm like, come on, come on. It's just, it's just ridiculous. The whole, the whole idea, because you kind of get into it with indoctrination, brainwashing. I've always found that fascinating because I'm like, it is quite subjective in terms of what we define as indoctrination, really. In terms of like, I'm sure someone, anyone could justify literally anything we ever tell.

46:05 Like the purpose of school is indoctrination to an extent, right? We're indoctrinating these young mammals in into the specific culture that we live in and speak. Language properly without. You speaking English in this country, are you? That's indoctrination into that language, yeah. Kind of like because we all speak English here, like I guess so if you want to call that indoctrination. Oh, doing maths every day on the timetable, indoctrinating them and thinking maths is what? OK. And reading is. Yeah, reading. Yeah, we also do that. Is that indoctrination? Like, Oh yeah, we've prioritised teaching kids to read. I bet the reading's in English as well, isn't it? Well, that's indoctrination. I find it a strange concept basically, is what I'm saying. Like I think there are levels, right. Of course there are. I think there are. Easy to point out. Definitely when it comes to extremities, like it's very easy to say that's that's just clear cut.

46:48 We all agree that's. But it's indoctrination. Indoctrination. If you're saying it's indoctrination to teach English every day, I think that's a bit wild. I think that's a bit wild as well. I think that's more extreme on the other side I. Think it's indoctrination? Being but I think someone might say in a way it is because you're teaching kids to think a specific way. I don't know. Does it fall under that category? I don't know. Like is teaching just by definition indoctrination? That's kind of what I'm getting at, and I might be genuine, I might be wrong. Genuinely, I'm. Going to read it out. Indoctrination is the process of forcefully or persistently teaching a person or group to accept a specific set of beliefs, ideologies, or doctrines. OK. So I think it's more specifically like. So academics wouldn't count. That's not beliefs or ideologies. That's fair enough. That's fair enough. And I think that's why indoctrination separately, you can kind of, I can kind of see why people separate and say you shouldn't be indoctrinating anything because what they're saying is the role of school is to not go into beliefs or moral moralistics.

47:38 Yeah. But I I personally think it's fine to go into the realms of morals when it's just a blanket thing. Of course it is and and also. But some people say it's not. Yeah, and, and, and, but, But if you're persistently saying to people, right, Case, here's the troubling bit, which goes against what we both think, right? Yeah. But I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit here. Some will say that persistently saying whatever it is, if it's a moral outlook on, like persistently if it's a moral outlook on life and like the acceptance of absolutely everyone no matter what, if you're persistently saying that to the children and teaching them that every day, that is indoctrination. Yeah. In the same way you just talked about how reading would be indoctrination, but we don't care. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're saying, OK, maybe not, but, but maybe it is indoctrination.

48:18 But maybe what we're saying is some indoctrination is OK. That's the point I'm trying to make. I've got one more thing to back this up. Right. Literally part of the basically every UK school is something to do with British culture. Yeah. That is inherently based on that definition is indoctrination completely. But we all obviously think that's OK because we live in Britain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like no one has a problem with teaching British culture in in British schools to kids who are growing up in British culture. Yeah, some, but it is what maybe they do. But it is indoctrination. Yes, in in the literal sense, in the same way that what you just said about saying everyone. And faith schools. Like right faith. Schools getting kids to walk in to an assembly and sit down and all chant back a reading from the Bible. That is indoctrination, and for me that goes above the line. I think that's bad, I think that's wrong, and I think that's bad.

48:59 Objectively, I don't think we should be. Doing no matter what the. Faith I don't think we should be doing no matter what the faith, it's nothing to do with the faith. It's to do with the indoctrination of, of making children believe in a God. I don't think that's OK. And other people, most people in fact, disagree with me on that one. So, so that's my whole overall point here is it's obviously subjective. So indoctrination itself, if someone's saying we've got really deep here, if someone's saying you're just indoctrinating the kids, the answer really probably should be, yeah, we are. Yeah. But you know, the act of indoctrination itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, but we should be looking at what we're doing with indoctrination. But the the the people hear what I'm saying here and get immediately triggered because they have this idea of indoctrination being negative all the time. Yeah, yeah, of course. Indoctrination is persistently putting across the and, and teaching an ideology, A belief, a set of values. So if you agree with that ideology, belief, a set of values, you obviously don't think that it's a bad thing. But if you disagree with them, then you obviously think it is a bad thing.

49:51 And that's where this comes from. People will be saying, you know, I, I personally disagree with that. Whether we think that's acceptable or not, they will personally disagree with it. Do they have the right to in a public school, no matter what me and you think is acceptable or not? Do they have a right in a public school? No matter. It doesn't matter if we think they're right or wrong. Do they have the right to say you shouldn't be doing that to my kids, stick to academics. I think they have the right to have an opinion. Of course they do. The thing just going back to this to really clear, the thing that triggers me about it is when people, and you basically just said this, I'm going to say it again, is when people decide to call it brainwashing when it's something they don't agree with and they don't think it's brainwashing when it is something they agree with. That's what annoys me because it's like they can't even agree that in this idea of brainwashing, indoctrination is subjective in the 1st place. It's like, oh for God's sake.

50:36 So, oh, it's brainwashing our kids with this political ideology. But if I was teaching your political ideology, you wouldn't call that brainwashing, would you? So, yeah, reform recently a reform candidate went into a school and did a talk about reform, and obviously all the reform people are absolutely loving it. Yeah, of course. And it was just, it was just like, just think for one second about everything you've said about schools. If you think about the typical reform candidate of how it's awful and stuff, you can't, you don't get to now not think it's awful. You don't, you don't get to now think that's OK because it's what you believe in that. That story, I've seen that as well, triggered me at 1000 on this scale. Yeah, because of the reason we just established. That's what annoyed me so much. Indoctrination is OK, but it's what I want, yeah. That ohh God I just can't stand it. I do think just be really clear, the teachers are brainwashing the next generation of personal politics.

51:20 I think there's a really good debate to have here about where the line is in in school. You should do it in general about politics and certainly personal politics. I think that's a reasonable opinion and debate to have. To talk. It's not happening lots. But yeah, that isn't happening lots. No, no, no. The personal politics thing of someone in the classroom giving their personal politics to the class. I I agree that's bad. And I don't think it happened as much. The wider point of indoctrination is an interesting one. Yeah, because you could have someone walk past, imagine you walk into a school and and they're on the way to the hall, right, to deliver an assembly and they walk past something on the wall and it's about anti racism and and they think, oh God, and it's there any need for that? Like, oh God in that's all. Oh gosh. And they go to they go to the hall and then they're delivering a sermon on Christianity.

52:04 Yeah. It's like, OK, you've decided, you've decided if you have that thought train, you've decided personally which indoctrination to you is acceptable or not. And so, so putting it all back, you know, should schools not do any? I know this is this is what I've I've never got to a conclusion of this argument. I felt like we've even off the podcast had this conversation. I don't know what the solution is. I just know the only thing we shouldn't be doing is completely ignoring the fact that the hypocrisy. That's it, that's it. We should just stop. Let's we should try. We should aim to be as like the least hypocritical we possibly can be when we're talking about that. That for me is the first step. And we're not even there in terms of like, will we ever be able to draw a line? Probably not, no.

52:48 Basically, like the world is constantly changing. Culture is constantly changing, Opinions constantly change. And this is all about the subjectivity of culture and opinion. So it's an impossible task. But that example you gave happens if people walk in through, I don't agree with that indoctrination. Here's my indoctrination. It's like, for Christ's sake, like at least accept that that is hypocrisy and then we can maybe talk. Imagine like there's a racist incident on the playground and it goes to the teacher and they go, sorry, can't get involved in this belief system of whether this is good or bad. No, it's bad. Yeah, it's bad. It's bad. So we can say it's bad. Like there has to be like there's some obviously some stuff that's just true. True. So, so like, should schools do beliefs and system and and morality? Of course they should. Of course they should.

53:29 Yeah, But it's tricky where the line is. Yeah, hard. And you're interested. So yeah, this, this imaginary person we made-up. Yeah. Put them to rights, haven't we? Definitely. It's probably a business studies teacher. I've made enemies there. Yeah, you have? No, I just, I just. It was the only time where I was like, you have to have had some experience. Yeah. You have to have had some experience doing it in order to teach it well, I think. Yeah, and I agree for every single subject equally. That's it. It's just weird that business studies gets picked out that's. What I'm saying? We have to agree to disagree, right? No. Yes, maybe. I don't know. Can you repeat the question? Yeah, absolutely not guys. We'll see you next time. Thank you so much.

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