197. Is Setting In Maths Actually A Good Thing?

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Hello everyone, welcome back to
another episode of TC repeat.

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My name is Dylan and my name is
Hayden, and this week we're

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going to be diving into some
more research that appeared

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ruffle a few feathers.
We're going to be talking about

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what seems to be going against
10 years, 20 years, 30 years of

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advice around setting in maths,
mixed ability sets, streaming

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and setting by attainment.
We're going to be talking about

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it all because for most of my
career, and I think you can

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attest this, Hayden, we were
told that it's pretty much

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settled, we should be doing
mixed ability teaching when it

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comes to maths.
I feel like many teachers think

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that even if there are some pros
to that, the actual doing of it

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every single day, the
practicalities around it can be

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quite tricky for a number of
reasons we'll get into.

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But there was a recent study
that was released.

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Do you want to fill us in Hayden
on what was said?

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Yeah, absolutely.
And before I do that, I'm going

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to preface this episode because
I can imagine a little offender

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me a fendometer on on the on the
bottom of this, because you've

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already said mixed ability
instead of mixed attainment

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twice then.
And I think people might be

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might be seriously questioning
whether they can listen to this

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episode now.
OK, all right, that's OK.

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So if anyone has a massive
problem with the word ability,

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please get over it for this
entire discussion.

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And and do you know what that
that that maybe that's

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provocative as well.
My point here is that very

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clearly everyone knows what
we're talking about when we say

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ability.
Mixed ability is a very common

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way of describing a group that
has mixed ability in it.

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In terms of the lesson we're
talking about, we're not talking

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about the child as a whole.
We're not saying inherently

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they're less or more able of
absolutely everything ever.

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But the fact of the matter is
that there are children who are

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more and less able when it comes
to maths and when people go,

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well, someone said, oh, you
can't, Ability is is stuck.

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You can't become more or less
able at something.

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Yes you can.
Yeah, of course you can, unless

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you choose to define it the way
that you're choosing and.

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Then.
So then it's just inherent, is

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it?
And then we really are talking

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about eugenics that you can't
meet.

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Of course you can move your
ability in something.

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You can increase your ability to
do something.

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Yeah, my ability to run has
increased when I trained to do

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some more running.
And mine, mine has decreased

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significantly continuously since
I was seven.

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Yeah, it's not offensive when
you just know.

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Exactly.
No, actually it's your

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attainment.
We should be measuring your okay

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running attainment.
Whatever you whatever you think

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the right word is.
Imagine I'm saying that.

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That's what I mean.
I mean that I'm talking.

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Yeah, I don't.
I don't inherently think

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horrible things about children
or think terrible.

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I don't.
A fendometer.

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Not what we're saying, anyway.
Yeah, this new study.

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Go on, Hayden, Tell us about it.
Cool.

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So this the study came out.
Dylan's also not reel on this,

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so check it out on our Instagram
as well.

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And equally provocative.
To teach the repeat podcast.

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Thank you for that
clarification.

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The most important bit probably
of pointing people towards our

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Instagram.
Anyway, it's think with that in

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mind.
You know what?

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You've literally absorbed this
more and you've done a whole

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real life.
You might as well summarise.

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Stop.
That's what I wanted you to say,

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right?
Hayden?

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Why don't you say it?
I'm just lazy.

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Well, essentially it came out.
It's the EEF, EF Education

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Endowment Fund.
They fund a lot of research to

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do education and a lot of the
things that you would have heard

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third of your career in in
education has probably come from

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from this as well.
And they've said, oh, it's

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backed by this.
It's it's proper, it's this,

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it's that.
And essentially what it said was

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it talked about how children and
OK, OK, lower attaining children

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very good aren't negatively
impacted when it comes to

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setting.
However, those with higher

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attaining outcomes can flourish
and make more progress in a

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setting environment.
For the sake of just in case you

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have listeners who are not
necessarily up to scratch with

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the jargon of of teaching, can
you just very quickly explain

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what setting actually is
complete that work?

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Yeah, so all we mean here is
with mixed ability, mixed

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attainment.
Sorry.

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What you have is you have a
classroom that's just simply

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based on when children were
born.

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Yeah.
OK.

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So from September one year to
August the next, all of those

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children are in a class of
maths, and you just teach all of

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them.
And it doesn't matter what their

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attainment is in maths.
It doesn't matter how much they

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understand, it doesn't matter
where they are, they should all

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be taught the same lesson.
That would be mixed and it would

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be down to what you teach them,
what we'll talk about this in

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the future about differentiation
and the things you give them and

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the support you give them and
the help that together is the

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point.
They're all together and they

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will have varying ability.
OK Then with setting, what

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happens is you in some way
figure out what their attainment

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is in maths and then group them
according to that and it can

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look, it can look very, very
different.

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It can look vastly different.
You might just have some setting

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where the children need the most
support or in a smaller group

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and the rest are mixed.
You might have just some setting

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where the children who are
gifted and talented are just

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together and they push each
other on and they and they're in

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a group and everyone else is
mixed.

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You might have setting which is
straight up, you almost list

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them in order based on an
attainment scale that you have,

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based on whatever you want to do
to find the information out.

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And then you just cut them up
into quarters and there's four

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classes.
Yeah, whatever it can be.

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Setting it takes into account
the attainment and the ability

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of the child in that in that
lesson.

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Which is where we get the term
sets.

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You know, when we say, oh,
you're in set one.

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When I was at secondary school,
it was set one, set two, set 3.

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Because you have, you have the
highest set, the lower set.

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And you have all these words
that offend people as well.

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Yeah.
And we probably use throughout

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this, you know, in terms of like
higher ability, higher children,

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most able, more able.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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yeah.
Please, please, please

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understand.
Please give us, please give us

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the respect of understanding
that you know what we're talking

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about.
Please just think for more than

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10 seconds.
Other than what I don't like

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what said, all of these people
must be awful.

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We're not awful people.
Just think about what we're

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saying, please.
For more than 5 seconds anyway.

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The findings were in general
were pupils in mixed attainment

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classes are about made about one
month less progress in maths on

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average than pupils in sets.
So that's straight across the

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board.
In average pupils make less

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progress in mixed attainment
classes.

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High prior retainers made about
two months less progress in

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mixed attainment classes.
So it it gives those children

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who are more capable with maths
make far less progress when

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they're in mixed ability.
And that makes sense, right?

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That's just something teachers
have said for years that has

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always been batted off that
they're held back.

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Yeah, they are held back.
They have to be because it's

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just a practicality of teaching
a mixed ability class.

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Yeah, surely.
Surely low prior retainers and

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pupils from disadvantaged
backgrounds made similar

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progress in either model setting
did not significantly harm them,

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right?
This, this is the key here

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because again, I've had some
people push back and say, well

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this doesn't say it's better for
lower retainers.

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No it doesn't, it's the same,
it's the same.

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So if we have the option of it
staying the same but it's better

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for a different group then
that's obviously maybe

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potentially something that's
useful for the whole class as a

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whole.
This.

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This was the kicker for me.
self-confidence in maths was

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slightly worse in mixed
attainment schools than in

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setting schools.
It's a small effect overall but

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I can't tell you how much of my
career people have told me that

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if you set it ruins the
confidence of children.

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This study has found the
opposite, that when children are

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in mixed ability classes, what a
shock they see other children

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who can do things they can't and
become less confident.

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So that that for me was another
just a bit of vindication.

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I think for all those teachers
out there have been saying it

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for years that this is not the
case.

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So the EEF had these basic
recommendations, which I think

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were a really good place to
land.

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And it said if you set and if
you teach mixed attainment.

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So it wasn't saying you should
definitely do one if you want to

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make that clear to people.
Now, the point of this is that

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both can work.
And those people who spent the

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whole Caribbean on their high
horse saying that setting is

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disgusting.
We even had a quote later on

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that we'll talk about it being
it's violence against.

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It's clearly none of that is a
case of both.

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If you set, do not concentrate
specialist teachers into the top

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sets and let pupils move between
those sets and have fluidity.

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If you teach mixed attainment,
you have to actively stretch

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those high attainers because
that's where the gap is open.

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Yeah.
So again, just one extra line

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that backs this as well.
Something they found was that

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the lesson observations showed
that mixed attainment classes

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were teaching content closer to
what the quote bottom sets get.

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You know what I mean?
The lower attaining sets get

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than what the high attaining
sets get.

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So it completely backs up
everything you said before that

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all like the all the teachers
that have been saying this for

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years.
I've been saying this for years

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of like, oh, if you've, if I've
got the entire range of of

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attainment in this class, it's,
it's really hard for me to do

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what I would have done if I only
had the top 25% of attainers.

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Or only the only the bottom
right.

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OK, actually, I think you'll
find, Hayden, that a rising tide

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raises all boats.
Yeah.

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OK.
I think you'll find that

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actually if we just have really
high standards, which clearly

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you don't if you want to set.
All right, you're just putting a

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ceiling on those children.
OK.

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So I think actually you'll find
that a rising tide raise all

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boats.
Love analogies that just sound

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kind of cool.
I don't really mean anything.

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I love them.
I love them.

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Yeah.
I'm inspired by that.

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Yeah, actually true.
I know I'm still in front of a

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class right now where I'm really
struggling to make, but someone

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mentioned the tide getting
higher and bloody.

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That is how bloody water.
Works.

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I I you know what, it must be
the case.

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How waterworks really does
reflect how old children learn.

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I want to, I really do just want
to just make the point here that

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what I am saying, my baseline is
not now this research says that

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settings better.
So we should all just what I'm

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saying here is that those people
who are genuine.

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I LED maths in school, I did
maths specialist, these courses,

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I still thought setting had its
place.

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There were people out there who
was edged on it, had on the side

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of snobbery who if they heard
the word setting, blood jump,

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not being trained in maths.
I don't think you understand

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maths mastery mate.
We do it all at the same time.

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Absolute utter nonsense.
There is a place for setting,

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there is a place for mixed
ability.

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Both have their pros, both have
their places and both can be

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really successful.
And you know, we'll come, we'll

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circle back round to this.
But if you have issues with

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maths in your school, it's
probably because of other

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things.
It's not necessarily because of

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the way you're setting or doing
stability.

231
00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:23,680
Definitely.
There are a lot of factors that

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00:09:23,680 --> 00:09:25,360
are.
Implying that hopefully will be

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00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,080
the theme that comes through
this episode as we explore it

234
00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:28,720
deeper and deeper and deeper and
look into the whys.

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00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,280
So let's just, let's just dive a
little bit more into our own

236
00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:32,840
experiences because I think it's
important, right?

237
00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,520
Because I equally spent the
entirety of my career and I

238
00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,880
think other people did as well.
Even if I think I could have

239
00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,480
been working in teacher for 20
years and I could have spent the

240
00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:46,280
entirety of that time thinking
mixed attainment is on this

241
00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,040
pedestal and is the best way of
doing it.

242
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,640
If you set well, you might just
be a bit lazy.

243
00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,360
Maybe you don't do the work.
It's it is just worse for the

244
00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,040
children, like as if there is no
overlap whatsoever.

245
00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,760
And I think that's what that is
like you said, that's what this

246
00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,400
new research challenges.
I don't want to fall victim.

247
00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,800
I'm sure a lot of people will.
And I definitely started to do

248
00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:09,840
it.
And I first read the article of

249
00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,880
like, ha ha, you were all wrong.
It's actually, it's actually

250
00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,680
insert the complete opposite and
it's just not true.

251
00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,320
Like you said like and I would
say it again, the EEF

252
00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,840
recommendations were if you set
do this, if you do mixed ability

253
00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:23,320
do this.
The recommendations weren't

254
00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:25,280
everybody now stopped doing
mixed ability.

255
00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,320
We were totally wrong for the
last 25 years.

256
00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:29,720
Actually, we got it all
completely wrong.

257
00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,040
All the old research is now
redundant and in void.

258
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,000
This new one piece of research
tells us how to do it this way.

259
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:36,960
It's like, what are the chances
that will change in 25 years?

260
00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:38,560
And.
This is this is exactly what I'm

261
00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:39,960
leaning into.
Those people have seen research

262
00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:41,600
before and said, therefore
always it's bad.

263
00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,400
It's like I'm saying the same
thing.

264
00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:45,960
Like clearly it's not.
And clearly now I don't think

265
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:47,840
those people who've been
championing mixed stability for

266
00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,200
25 years will read this and be
like, I'll drop that, then I'll

267
00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,240
move.
No, no, because exactly that.

268
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,200
Therefore their own
preconceptions of what's right

269
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:55,680
and wrong and they're going to
go along with it.

270
00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,120
And if you look at the history
of the research, right, this,

271
00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,240
we're not saying there wasn't
research that said mixed ability

272
00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,240
was great or better or that
setting maybe had no impact or

273
00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:05,440
maybe even low retainers were
worse.

274
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,440
We had this in the past, which
is where this has come from.

275
00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,960
It's usually come from a good
place of people seeing research

276
00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:12,200
and going, actually it does say
this.

277
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,960
So let's do that.
I think we just have to really

278
00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,800
just bake in here that the
experience of hundreds of

279
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,920
thousands of teachers doing it
every single day is not

280
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:23,880
automatically trumped by a
research paper.

281
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,040
A research paper can be really
helpful.

282
00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,800
It can be really useful.
You've got to look at the

283
00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:29,240
methodologies, you've got to
look at the outcomes.

284
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:30,240
You've got to look at who's
doing it.

285
00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:31,440
You've got to look at why
they're doing it.

286
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,680
There's there's so many
different things that that come

287
00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:37,080
into effect when you're
interpreting research that

288
00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,320
clearly you cannot just look at
the headline and be like, OK,

289
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:40,320
I'm doing that now.
Of course not.

290
00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,120
There is even like some like
going to the NTH degree of this.

291
00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:43,840
There's some really hard
limitations which just make the

292
00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,320
whole thing hilarious, like when
people just take the research,

293
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:47,600
well, this is the only way to do
it now.

294
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,200
Like the research typically
understandably fails to

295
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,200
understand, fails to include the
context of every human ever.

296
00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:58,360
Like this research had some
internal context.

297
00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,600
It was, it was it was done in a
secondary school year 7 to 8.

298
00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,480
There was a certain amount of
pupils over a certain time

299
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,160
period.
There's always going to be

300
00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,320
limitations and bias, right.
So, yeah, when that when that

301
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,840
one form entry primary school is
looking at this research that

302
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:12,960
now that and and they're
thinking it says, oh, we have to

303
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,120
set, but I can't.
Yeah, of course you can't.

304
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,920
Of course you can't.
There's situations where you

305
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,280
literally can't set, and there
are probably situations where

306
00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:25,480
it's incredibly easier to have
sets than it would be to do

307
00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,600
mixed ability just based on the
context of your score.

308
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,880
And I think you just have to
have that in your mind all the

309
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,080
time when interpreting this.
Stuff and the outcomes of the

310
00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,800
children is not rooted only in
what you choose to have these

311
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:37,200
two things.
There's so many other things

312
00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,720
that if you want to improve the
outcomes of your maths teaching

313
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,880
in school, it's not as simple as
just going latest research

314
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,880
paper, mixed ability, latest
research paper set the quality

315
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:48,920
of teaching, who's where, who's
doing what.

316
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,160
There's just so much more to it,
you know, home involvement,

317
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,120
etcetera.
So I guess the point here is

318
00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,840
that, you know, throughout my
career is definitely definitely

319
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,200
been the entire time of my
career.

320
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,640
It's been, you know, it's been
looked upon as mixed abilities,

321
00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,960
better mixed.
Get everyone in the same

322
00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:04,480
classroom and you just
differentiate.

323
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,040
Yeah.
And you just get, you know, give

324
00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:07,800
them opportunities to stretch
themselves or not.

325
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,720
Clearly that's have a limiting
factor with children who are

326
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,960
high, high retainers.
And it's nice to see that, you

327
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:15,800
know, it's not automatically
you're doing a disservice to

328
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:16,520
your low retainers.
Yeah.

329
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,320
Because I've set for my whole
career, OK.

330
00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:20,600
And I, for the vast majority of
my career have been with those

331
00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,480
low retaining sets, OK.
And I have loved every second

332
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,720
and I have not believed it when
people have said to me,

333
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,200
therefore confidence is worse in
those kids.

334
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,520
I've the confidence if if
anything, I'm not even just

335
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,080
saying this because maths is my
passion and because I agree you

336
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:36,800
have to have strong maths
teachers across the board.

337
00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,760
If anything, with those lower
attainers, I was with those

338
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:40,280
lower attainers, I LED maths in
the school.

339
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,440
I love maths.
I, I, I bred this whole series

340
00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:46,400
of just confidence and love for
the subject.

341
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,560
The kids were getting way more
than if they were in a mixed

342
00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:51,280
ability.
Sure, and and it doesn't mean

343
00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,600
they couldn't have got it in a
mixed ability, but what it does

344
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,200
mean is that you can still get
it from sets.

345
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:56,960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So if someone came into your

346
00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,960
classroom with that on that high
horse, right, and had said to

347
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:03,280
you at that time, Oh no, no, no,
no, this isn't any good like

348
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,840
setting is bad.
Actually the the confidence of

349
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,840
the children in this, in this
class, you might not know it,

350
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,440
Mr. Price, but the confidence of
the children in this class is

351
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:11,960
actually being completely
diminished.

352
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,120
Yeah, exactly that that that's
when I think that becomes this

353
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,520
animosity towards the research.
And that's when you brought up

354
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,120
and you're just like, you know,
you don't know anything.

355
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:20,240
Yeah, you're right.
And it comes from an

356
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:21,600
understanding, a broad
understanding.

357
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,760
To be fair, from the same from
the teachers have to understand

358
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,240
that research is generic.
It doesn't mean that every

359
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,760
single time that what is said in
the research happens, it has to

360
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:30,920
be that way.
There's always going to be some

361
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,560
anecdotal evidence either side.
It's a generic trend, but

362
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:35,640
clearly those trends are
different based on who's looking

363
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,400
at what A. 100% and at the end
of the day, I will just finish

364
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,840
this whole talk about research
by saying that this new research

365
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,440
has come out really like in
essence, it has been done by the

366
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,080
same team who are who have
originally researched and

367
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:49,920
brought out all this other
evidence to say that the

368
00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,400
complete opposite.
You know that like, so you just

369
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,880
have to take it with a pinch of
salt and, and it's not even

370
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,240
unfair to say that that's kind
of the point of research.

371
00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,240
We, we like, we do as humans, we
do learn new things and change

372
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,040
and adapt over time.
It's that doesn't mean

373
00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,200
inherently that research is now
bad because it contradicted

374
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,760
itself from 25 years ago.
That kind of is the nature of

375
00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,760
things a lot of the time.
And with that in mind, you just

376
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:14,560
have to accept that maybe, maybe
if you are on that high horse of

377
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,720
this is the only way to do it.
You might have been wrong that

378
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,000
that was the only way of of
doing it.

379
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,720
And this research.
And if you are, if you are so

380
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,760
hard on the research backing up
before, yeah.

381
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,920
And now this new research by the
same people has come out saying

382
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:27,600
something opposite.
You kind of have to jump off

383
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,240
your high horse and just accept,
OK, you know what?

384
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,120
Maybe I'll do it that.
Bit or stay in your high horse

385
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,240
and just move to now the must do
setting.

386
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:34,760
The opposite now.
Stay in your high horse.

387
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,360
Yeah, Yeah, at least you're
consistent now, I suppose.

388
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:37,440
That's that's true.
That's true.

389
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,240
And it's nothing to do with your
practise or experience in the

390
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:40,520
classroom.
It's only to do with the the

391
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,120
paper that you read.
I think what we should do is go

392
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,640
into setting and having mixed
ability classes and just look

393
00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:49,320
at, you know, the case for each
one.

394
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,160
So I think you should start with
setting because I think I don't

395
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,160
know you and I both, you know,
we both LED master in school.

396
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,080
I know our opinions have always
been setting is good, Yeah, it

397
00:15:58,080 --> 00:15:59,600
can be done well, it can be done
bad.

398
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:01,240
And we've never said that mixed
stability is bad.

399
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,640
No, never really clear, never.
But we've always said it has

400
00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:05,200
limitations.
Yeah, and there's been

401
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,840
limitations in our setting, but
not automatically.

402
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,520
Doesn't mean that we should
therefore do mixed stability,

403
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,480
because I think there's more.
Limitation in the context of our

404
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,400
careers and the schools we have
worked in, we have always, we

405
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,560
have always come to the
conclusion that some sort of

406
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,360
setting has been a good
conclusion.

407
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:19,600
That's basically the way we can
say it, isn't it?

408
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,400
Yeah, right.
OK, so we're gonna we're gonna

409
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,360
go through a few here.
I think this is really, really

410
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,400
interesting.
So in terms of just pedagogical

411
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,160
precision, right?
So you can tailor your pace,

412
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,880
your depth, your language to a
narrower band of prior

413
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:32,680
attainment.
So with the top set you can

414
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,560
push, you know, really, really
push that abstract level.

415
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,720
If you think about a lot of
training and mass concrete

416
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,640
pictorial abstract to journey
through.

417
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,160
If you're, if you get children
in the same room who are very

418
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,360
much towards the end of that,
you can push way more into that

419
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,360
abstract than that deeper
understanding because we've

420
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,560
already made that journey.
So if we can already take

421
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,160
advantage of that, it means we
can jump faster, we can assume

422
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,280
more, we can get kids further.
Here's a good example.

423
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,400
I have been, I was saying 6 for
a long time.

424
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,720
And I have taught a variety of
different attainment sets, some

425
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,520
more mixed than others.
Because again, by the nature of

426
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,280
it, you've got to remember by
the way, that even when you have

427
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,640
sets, you still have loads of
children in a class.

428
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,319
And there's obviously going to
be a range still.

429
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:09,680
So there's still some sort of
mixing, right?

430
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,359
And I've taught the same
objectives at the same point of

431
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,720
the year to different attainment
sets.

432
00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:20,319
And I felt like I've made the
best progress I can in, in both

433
00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:23,000
holistically confidence and
actual attainment with each of

434
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:24,920
those sets.
And I've taught wildly

435
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,640
differently in terms of my
approach to the lesson that even

436
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,880
sometimes the, the, the layers
of content, like you said, the

437
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,960
depth that I go into.
And I've come to the conclusion

438
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,920
after that of thinking, if I had
to do both of those at the same

439
00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,640
time, neither of those groups
would have got the, the depth

440
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,720
and like precision that I gave
them.

441
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,000
And that simply it was the truth
of it.

442
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,280
I just physically I can't be two
people and I can't talk to two

443
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,280
groups of people at the same
time without all overlapping

444
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:50,640
sounding ridiculous Exactly.
So I would have had to have

445
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,200
compromised somewhere.
So I think that's a very strong

446
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,920
argument for setting is you are
by definition, if you are the

447
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,200
same teacher in this, someone
might argue and say, but if

448
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:00,760
you've got a weaker teacher,
okay, you've added another

449
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,960
variable.
If I'm the teacher in all these

450
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,000
examples, I will be able to
deliver more depth and breadth

451
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,320
if I have a much tighter focus
with the with the curriculum.

452
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,000
And there's still going to be a
breadth there.

453
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:12,840
We're not putting a ceiling on
anyone.

454
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,800
What we're doing is increasing
the probability that the breadth

455
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,160
of knowledge and understanding
is smaller.

456
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,200
So I can target it more, but
more more effectively.

457
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,520
When I've had classes lower
attaining classes before, there

458
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,800
have been some children in that
class who are probably in that,

459
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,400
in that, in that, in that small
step we're doing that day.

460
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,400
Or maybe even that whole strand
that we're doing can achieve

461
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,320
better than some children in the
set which we say is higher set,

462
00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:36,600
right?
It doesn't.

463
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,680
So doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter because my

464
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,000
breadth is so much smaller.
I'm not going to the highest,

465
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,120
but the highest echelon of that
set anymore.

466
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,120
It just means it overlaps a bit.
It's still more narrow for me as

467
00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:49,280
a teacher to focus on.
When you're with those

468
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,160
foundation sets, you can really
slow down, you can give them

469
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,600
exactly what they need.
I could hit those gaps so much

470
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,320
more perfectly because they were
in the same kind of area.

471
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,320
And you're right doing both.
It's just, it's just

472
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,360
unrealistic, I think.
And, and I think what was good

473
00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:06,520
about the research was that it
just showed that there was a

474
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,560
minimal effect on lower
retainers and a bigger effect on

475
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,080
higher retainers if they managed
to go and set.

476
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,920
That makes sense to me because
realistically, if you have a

477
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,680
mixed class and you are
delivering a lesson to all 32

478
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:22,000
children naturally, and I don't
care, you can say all you want,

479
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,160
all your metaphors about tides,
riding boats, Naturally, if you

480
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,520
don't want to alienate 1/3 of
that class, you have to be

481
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,800
giving that input at a lower
level and therefore just hoping

482
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,920
that the tops or the highs
stretch themselves.

483
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,280
You have to be doing that.
Otherwise you're basically

484
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,000
saying I'll leave you behind.
Maybe that's where, you know, if

485
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,880
we think about mixed ability
classes and if it's had a

486
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,320
detriment, A detrimental impact
on those lower retainers, maybe

487
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:46,880
that's why because we're leaving
them behind, right?

488
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,080
And it comes again into the
quality of teaching.

489
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,280
There is way much more to be
said about the quality of

490
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,320
teaching.
But inherently if you mixed, I

491
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:54,760
just think it's harder to do
that.

492
00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:57,120
And you can talk about
stretching people, etcetera.

493
00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:59,640
And making sure that you know,
if you do set with lower

494
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,320
attainers, how can you make sure
that they don't have a ceiling

495
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:03,960
on them comes down to your
quality of teaching.

496
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,720
Definitely.
I think a lot of this and I

497
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,960
think some of the criticisms
we'll get to when we, when we

498
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,800
talk about the pros for mixed
ability, a lot of this will link

499
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,440
back to I think some of the
things we're saying right now.

500
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,640
And I do think it links to like
the quality of teaching that

501
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,960
what, what you're able to do.
And one other thing I'll say as

502
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,520
well about the whole like mixed
ability, having your highest

503
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,080
attainers and your lowest
attainers in one place.

504
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:27,480
A lot of people will say the gap
is smaller in the classroom, and

505
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,720
I find that I've always found
that really fascinating.

506
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,200
What do you mean?
The gap, they'll say, the gap

507
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,240
between your highest attain and
your lowest attain and the mixed

508
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,480
stability set is a is a smaller
gap than it would be if you

509
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,440
taught them in separate
attainment sets.

510
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,640
And therefore they say, and
therefore that's a good.

511
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,440
Thing as if the size of the gap
is the thing that matters.

512
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,760
And, and yeah, and they always
fail to look at the only thing

513
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,960
that actually matters, which is
OK, but if we're comparing those

514
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,360
things, we just need to compare
the higher attainers to where

515
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:54,240
they would have been in the
mixed stability set to where

516
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,840
they are in the other set and
the lower attainers to the in

517
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,080
the mixed stability set and the
non, because that's the thing

518
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:00,200
that matters.
And yeah, the gap might be

519
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,760
bigger, but like, OK, you got a,
you got a.

520
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,480
So imagine a a very small gap,
but it's it's much lower down in

521
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,200
average attainment.
Let's give it numbers quick.

522
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:09,760
Let's go now.
So let's just say arbitrary

523
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:10,440
lines.
Let's just say.

524
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,960
So let's just say 3 out of 10 is
where your lower retainers are

525
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,240
and they and then your higher
retainers are at 7 out of 10.

526
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:18,800
Yeah, OK.
So you've got a gap of four.

527
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,960
And in this other example, your
lower retainers, they're still

528
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,680
at 3 out of 10.
So they've not got worse or

529
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,000
better.
It's ah, that's frustrating.

530
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,480
It's no different.
They're still at 3 out of 10,

531
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:27,960
but your higher attainers are at
9 out of 10.

532
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:29,600
Now there's a gap of.
Six much bigger gap much.

533
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,560
Worse, the gap has increased.
And you look at the gap, you

534
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,400
think, oh, the gaps increased,
that's bad, but it's not, is it?

535
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,440
Yeah, it's not bad, right?
And that's what you're saying?

536
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,920
In that situation, it's not bad.
It would be bad if it was the

537
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,520
other way around.
If you had the gap of four, it

538
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,920
was three and seven, and then
the gap was one and seven,

539
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:46,840
right?
OK, cool.

540
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,240
There's no benefit to anyone.
In fact, there's only a decrease

541
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,440
that that's a bad gap.
And I think the context of the

542
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:52,960
gap is important, but no one
ever does it.

543
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,520
And everyone just says, well,
we've reduced the gap, so that's

544
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,160
good.
So it's not good if it's at the

545
00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,600
detriment of 1/3 of.
Your class I've had, I mean, is

546
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:00,920
this conversation?
Yeah, I remember this

547
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,800
conversation so much where we
we, I vividly remember this is

548
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,200
this literally happened, right?
We looked at data of the gap

549
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,760
between pupil premium and non
pupil premium from the year

550
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,760
before.
And then we looked at the gap

551
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,520
now and the gap had decreased.
It got smaller, right?

552
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:17,120
Everyone given themselves pat on
the backs.

553
00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:20,200
We've decreased this gap.
Looking at the raw data, both

554
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,440
were lower, both were lower.
It was just that, it was just

555
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,240
that the higher retaining that,
sorry, the the one that was

556
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,680
higher had dropped more, right?
So the gap had become smaller

557
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:31,640
and squeezed down or the gap
smaller.

558
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,360
Everyone's down though,
everyone's lower.

559
00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:35,960
Yeah, but Pat on the back, Sir.
Yeah, Yeah.

560
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,880
We've got to close that pupil
premium gap.

561
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,440
And then if you looked at the
like the tables we'd look at it

562
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,000
would say pupil premium gap
percentage and it would go 8%,

563
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,200
four point 4%.
That's good.

564
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,960
What?
Yeah, no, it's not Yeah, yeah.

565
00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:50,600
It's just, it's just so
simplistic, we.

566
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,160
Get so obsessed as teachers with
certain metrics.

567
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,680
That gap, kind of a gap, Yeah.
Well, do you know what do you

568
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:56,680
know?
Do you know what I'm going to

569
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:57,960
say?
It might be controversial.

570
00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:59,760
We can have a gap.
Yeah.

571
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:01,840
We obviously can have a gap.
Yeah.

572
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,240
What are you aiming for in life
if you don't want a gap of

573
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,760
anything ever?
We'll never have any

574
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,880
extremities.
We'll never have any amazing

575
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,280
people at different things.
Oh, but I'm so jealous because

576
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:11,960
the other people are just saying
the lower, the lower.

577
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,080
I'm going to make sure everyone
is the same.

578
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,840
No, we don't get better at
something else.

579
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,040
We should be.
We should be nurturing those

580
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,880
higher, those children who are
better at something, who have a

581
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,880
passion about something, who
want to improve.

582
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,200
It doesn't mean we don't help
other people improve.

583
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,520
It just means that it's good to
celebrate people who are

584
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,360
exceptional at things.
And we have this whole mindset

585
00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:34,640
of no, they can't make the gap
higher.

586
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,280
Yeah, we can.
We can absolutely make the gap

587
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,160
higher because the context of
the gap matters.

588
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,320
Does it mean every single
instance of a widening gap is a

589
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:43,960
good thing?
Obviously not.

590
00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:46,440
But does it mean every single an
instance of a gap widening is a

591
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,040
bad thing?
Also dead brain behaviour?

592
00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:52,040
Of course, that's not true.
Exactly your your example there

593
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,520
was an example of a gap
decreasing, but it was

594
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,480
universally worse for everybody
involved, right so.

595
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,320
And then initially we had an
example of a gap increasing.

596
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,880
Yeah, that wasn't better for
everyone, but it wasn't worse

597
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,560
for anyone.
No, like it was not worse.

598
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,240
It was the same.
And some people push back on the

599
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,640
reel and they were like, I don't
see any evidence here of why

600
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,920
it's better for lower retainers.
No, there wasn't any.

601
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,280
That's why it remained the same.
There was no impact.

602
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,960
It was the same.
Do we, are we that obsessed with

603
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,480
any kind of positive that has to
be positive for everyone always?

604
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,360
Yeah, Yeah.
What obviously out of these two

605
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:25,800
things?
Oh, typical high achievers

606
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,520
getting more.
As always, once you're there,

607
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,040
you're there, OK?
All right, let's be real.

608
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,440
Money makes money, baby.
How much?

609
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,120
How long did you spend in
school?

610
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:33,560
10 years. 11 years.
Right.

611
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,800
OK.
Is it typical that the high

612
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:41,440
retainers get everything?
No, it's massively skewed.

613
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,720
I'm not saying it shouldn't be.
No children, children from lower

614
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,960
socio and economic backgrounds
get people premium funding and

615
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,800
extra money in place for it.
All of the, all of the, all of

616
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,320
the pressure and, and the move
towards is to getting people

617
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,160
past entertainment level from
the bottom up.

618
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,280
Everything that schools do is
about that.

619
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,680
Yeah, the 90%, the the children,
the children who are higher

620
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,240
achievers are forgotten.
Yeah, of course they are.

621
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,360
They've got that's my .0, the
tops getting more again.

622
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:08,720
The tops never get anything.
They never get anything and and

623
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,000
they should get less.
Don't.

624
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,120
This is it.
They should get less.

625
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,000
They don't need as much support,
right?

626
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,280
In terms of the I'm talking
about a difference now between a

627
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,720
child who can't read and a child
who can.

628
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:19,640
The children who can't read
should get more than the

629
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,960
children who can, whether they
can read veraciously or or just

630
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,640
about right.
But why do we pretend that that

631
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,040
individual child is not
deserving of attention?

632
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:29,600
I agree.
Is not deserving of pushing.

633
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,640
It's not deserving of getting
the highest they can get.

634
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,000
Because then oh, if they get the
highest they can get, the gap

635
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,200
increases and the school looks
bad.

636
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,040
Get over it.
Change your outlook because

637
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,280
those kids deserve it as much as
anyone to get input and help.

638
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,480
It's because, and I'll say this
now, and I hope if you're

639
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,640
listening to this, you will
either reluctantly agree or

640
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,000
agree passionately, it's because
we have been totally, totally

641
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,360
brainwashed in education to
believe this fact.

642
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,640
Progress only matters when it
crosses A threshold.

643
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:58,880
That's it.
You're already over the top

644
00:25:58,880 --> 00:25:59,880
threshold, kid.
Cool.

645
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:01,480
Do not care about your progress
anymore.

646
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,560
It's 0 progress technically
because you've gone from

647
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,320
expected to expected, right?
You, you could have made 15

648
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,640
progress points individually of
how you're doing, but it's, it's

649
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,040
still in the band of expected.
So it means nothing to me.

650
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,280
A different child could have
made 2 progress points, 2

651
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,960
percentage points, but they tip
over that expected band.

652
00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:22,800
That is more useful in terms of
a school's outlet and how it

653
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,400
hooks and is perceived from the
outside.

654
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,760
That gives you a boost, a move,
Absolutely.

655
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,800
That two percentage point move
is more beneficial to a school

656
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,720
than a 15 percentage point move
for someone else.

657
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,000
And it is horrendous.
I wonder how many school I'd be

658
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,720
really interested to know this
because I don't want to base it

659
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,880
off my own experience because
it's just too small of a pool of

660
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,600
information.
I wonder how many schools are

661
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,640
still doing things like gifted
and talented groups.

662
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,320
Remember when I started training
also when I was at school the

663
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,880
whole term gifted and talented.
And maybe it's got to refresh

664
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,120
that term now and I'm just not
whatever.

665
00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:53,680
But if that groups still exist,
right?

666
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,400
I wonder how many schools are
still doing things while they

667
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,400
actively go out of the way to
say this child or these children

668
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,480
are like particularly talented
in this subject and we're going

669
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,280
to do something extra to like
really try and like push it even

670
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,280
further.
I remember you've done quite a

671
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,360
few talented groups.
Last year, because it was and it

672
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:11,760
always seemed to be Term 1 where
we know we're, we're finding out

673
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,200
where the children are, we're
getting a bit more data,

674
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:14,840
etcetera.
Time 1, I do a gifted and

675
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,760
talented group where children
who just exceptional about

676
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,360
maths, there was just six of
them and me and we'd do some,

677
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,960
we, we would do whatever we
wanted, you know what I mean?

678
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,480
Like I'd watch some #5 videos
and get some ideas about

679
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,400
investigations and I'd give
these kids just some open-ended

680
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,120
questions where we'd explore
different things.

681
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,440
We did so much, it was so fun
and the kids got so much out of

682
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:33,520
it.
And it wasn't about testing at

683
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:34,880
the start and the end wasn't
about moving.

684
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:36,840
It was just about saying your
exception on maths, let's push

685
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:38,560
you, let's do some unbelievable
things.

686
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,520
It's so fun.
And then after time too, I was

687
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,000
literally told I can't really
measure this though, can't

688
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:44,760
really measure this.
So.

689
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,480
So can you start doing some
groups people with with children

690
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:48,760
who we've seen are on the cusp
of expecting.

691
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it was like, you know what,

692
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,240
those kids do need input and
help, right?

693
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,080
Yeah.
But it's always, always, always

694
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:55,520
at the detriment of the other
children.

695
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,640
And I just, I just feel bad for
them because I'm not being

696
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,560
funny.
I'm not being like boastful any.

697
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:00,920
I was that I was that kid at
school.

698
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,760
I was obsessed with maths.
I loved it was my thing.

699
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,040
That's what I loved doing and I
always felt like I was given

700
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,520
opportunities to push it, to
push it and it felt good.

701
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,040
And if there's any child out
there who's getting this idea of

702
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,800
being squashed, oh, no, no,
sorry, no, no, no, no.

703
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:17,320
This me to me to put all our
help over here.

704
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:18,480
You just get you crack on,
you're fine.

705
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:19,520
Just do.
Just do your worksheet.

706
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,560
That's sad to me.
It's sad.

707
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,720
I, I just remembered you saying
that sort of reminded me.

708
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,400
I thought about this for years.
You might have done the same

709
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,680
because you only.
So Dylan and I went to the same

710
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,800
secondary school and Dylan was
one year below me.

711
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,040
So there's a good chance that
things that were in place for me

712
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,120
are probably in place for you as
well.

713
00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:35,480
I don't know if you did this or
not, but I think, I think I was

714
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:36,880
in year 7.
Maybe you're 8.

715
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,400
And there was like a, they
picked the top 10 mathematicians

716
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,200
of the year to go and do like
some origami paper folding

717
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:46,600
thing.
And it was all like mathematical

718
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,080
folding.
I don't know if your year group

719
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,560
did.
That no, what I did was they had

720
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,800
to pick one male and one female,
the best mathematicians, and we

721
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,400
did a math Olympiad.
That's why I did.

722
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:55,560
Yeah.
Oh, you're the top one.

723
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:56,800
I was I.
Was top ten.

724
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,360
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, me and Jodie, we went

725
00:28:58,360 --> 00:28:59,320
off, we did it.
Very nice.

726
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,600
Yeah, but like wasn't.
But you remember that I loved

727
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,200
that because maths was also my
favourite subject.

728
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,960
And it is kind of sad to me the
idea that I, there's a reality

729
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:08,040
now.
I could go through school and

730
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:09,880
just none of that enrichment
happened to me because I,

731
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,240
because I am already greater
depth.

732
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,560
Okay, this kids going to get the
predicted grade that we want.

733
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,280
Like let's just just leave them.
Let's focus on these again.

734
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,160
It's I don't know what the
solution is because obviously we

735
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:21,080
need to focus on those other
kids.

736
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,800
I'm not saying we don't now
focus on the other kids.

737
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,360
But that it's a symptom of of
diminishing budgets as well.

738
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,040
Yeah, less and less and less
money.

739
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,440
What's going to go first?
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

740
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,480
Our scope of focus gets smaller
and smaller and smaller.

741
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,880
At the end of the day, it's sort
of like, OK, if you've got to

742
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,360
pick, am I going to pick the
child who's confident and

743
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,240
already does maths or am I going
to pick the child who I might be

744
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:40,680
able to make a difference for?
And they can, they can

745
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:41,840
understand the fundamentals now
do.

746
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:43,280
You know what?
Do you know what probably do you

747
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:44,840
know what winds me up?
This is the problem.

748
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:46,680
We're kind of going off a bit
tangent here, but it's good.

749
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,880
This is what winds me up with
the obsession with the line.

750
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:51,920
You know, I talked about that.
Two percentage point gets over

751
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:53,320
the line, 15 percentage point
doesn't.

752
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,600
Sure.
If we actually, if we actually

753
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,080
do what you just said, which is
to build the confidence of the

754
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,680
children at the lowest level who
can't do it.

755
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:00,800
Think about children who can't
read.

756
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,280
Yeah, think about children who
can't do their number ones to 10

757
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,400
or can't aren't properly
sabotizing or can't count

758
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:05,920
properly.
Right.

759
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,920
Children who we deem
realistically and though the

760
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,520
schools will deem them as we can
put as much time as we want, but

761
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:11,520
they're not going to.
Get passed.

762
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,680
This is exactly what I'm saying
now this is exactly what I mean

763
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,400
where if we were actually
thinking about the foundations

764
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,240
and and thinking about where it
should be going and like, oh, do

765
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:19,000
you know what?
Fair enough.

766
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,120
Kids who can't read should get
more support, right?

767
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,040
We're not talking about them.
There's no child in the world

768
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,040
who is just below expected level
of reading who could tip into

769
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,160
expected level of reading who
can't already read well and

770
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,640
understand the text.
They're already past that point.

771
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,360
This is the arbitrariness of
this, what we're talking about

772
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:35,720
here.
It's just this line that we

773
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,160
said.
We're not helping kids read who

774
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,320
couldn't read.
We're leaving them behind.

775
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,200
We're not even doing that.
We're doing the only thing that

776
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,880
ends up making schools league
tables look better.

777
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,520
It's like the worst middle
ground isn't, It's the worst.

778
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,480
So we're being forced and now
are our focus.

779
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,200
And then in doing that, we've
this now limited focus.

780
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,040
We're doing it in the wrong
place.

781
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:53,720
Exactly.
It's like the worst of both

782
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,840
worlds are not we've we're not
doing these things with these

783
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,520
given talented children.
OK, we can go over that, but

784
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,640
we're also not even helping with
this narrowed focus.

785
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,440
The the lowest of able children
who will need this help the

786
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:03,760
most.
And do you know what I think

787
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:04,960
this does?
Do you know what I think that

788
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:06,320
genuinely doesn't?
It's what I've always thought in

789
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,080
my whole career.
That explains why setting works.

790
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,200
Explain what you mean.
Because now those children who

791
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,520
have been forgotten in the mixed
cannot be forgotten because

792
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:15,680
they're the only ones in the
class.

793
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,040
Yeah, we have a foundation group
of children who are learning to

794
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:18,680
read together.
Still.

795
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,320
True, True.
We have a group of children who

796
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,040
are almost gifted and talented.
Fantastic maths.

797
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:25,920
I can only stretch them.
They can do this stuff.

798
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,160
It's fantastic.
I can only give them my full

799
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,320
attention.
And then we give those children

800
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,840
exactly what they need because
it's a more of a narrow focus.

801
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,080
It forces it.
It's a good point.

802
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,600
So I just think that's one or
more benefit of, of sets.

803
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,120
I mean, we can.
As I say, it brings us nicely

804
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:40,960
back to what we were doing,
which was just talking about if

805
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,160
we're, if we're really trying to
argue the case for setting, that

806
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,000
would be one of those points.
I think so confident I'll read

807
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,600
through this one quickly because
we kind of touched on it.

808
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,120
Confidence is another one.
And the reason it's in here now

809
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,480
is because that that study
showed that actually it didn't,

810
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,960
it didn't negatively impact the
confidence so badly that this

811
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,280
the, the setting is the worst
thing that could possibly have

812
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:58,760
happened to children.
It did the opposite.

813
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,880
Like it actually really, really,
really challenged that and said,

814
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,400
I actually know the confidence
was better when when we sat.

815
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:05,800
Doesn't mean it's always the
case, right?

816
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,800
But it does back up our
experience as teachers and

817
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,600
probably thousands of listeners
right now who are also thinking,

818
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,800
oh, I'm also a really competent,
passionate maths teacher.

819
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,280
And whenever I've been in any
set, whether it's mixed or not,

820
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,000
the confidence of the children
increases because that's what I

821
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,720
bring to the table as a teacher.
And and also it just it just

822
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,040
inherently.
I've always thought this

823
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,920
inherently, if, if you have a
base level of you're doing

824
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,640
nothing for confidence, right?
I do think that inherently if

825
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,840
you have mixed ability and
you're not paying any effort

826
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:31,920
into that confidence and you
have a set and you're not paying

827
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,400
any effort into that confidence,
the confidence of the children,

828
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,040
the mixed ability will be worse
because they're seeing other

829
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,680
children be able to do stuff
that they really struggle with.

830
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,600
By definition, that's going to
knock their confidence.

831
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,560
Whereas if they're in a targeted
group and they just have a

832
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,160
couple become more normal for
them, it'll be all getting

833
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,000
support here.
It it, it, it was nonsense to me

834
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,640
and it's just, that's the part
that frustrates me.

835
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,880
I agree.
I always feel like when people

836
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,040
when I have had debates and
arguments about mixed ability or

837
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,760
not, but I feel like they always
go to this like level of

838
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,160
completely unrealistic like
assumptions where they think

839
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,400
because I'm doing setting, that
means what I'm going to do is

840
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,360
I'm going to put hats on all the
children and say you're in set.

841
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:09,840
Everyone needs to know you're in
set 2.

842
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,240
And by the way, kids, set 2 is
the worst one.

843
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,360
Let's make sure we all know it.
Like, no one's doing that.

844
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,200
I know no one's doing that.
Especially in primary, it's

845
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,040
easier to isolate and and and
also, But this is the thing.

846
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,600
Kids can understand that and
know that, right?

847
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,320
They also can understand and
know that in a mixed ability

848
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,160
class, because oh that's weird,
We're all on the rectangle table

849
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,320
and the rectangle table gets a
teaching assistant every single

850
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:33,360
day and a different sheet to
everyone.

851
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:34,680
Else, oh, no deal.
And we don't even do that.

852
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:36,680
We just completely mix up the
children where they are in the

853
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:37,280
classroom.
Cool.

854
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,800
Now that's the child that can do
the other worksheet you've given

855
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,280
them because in your mixed
ability, you say you've

856
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,280
differentiated.
It's rated three ways and

857
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:44,560
they've got this sheet and
they've got that one.

858
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:45,640
Sorry.
Yeah, sorry.

859
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:46,880
Why have I got a different
sheet?

860
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,360
Oh, well, this has happened
before to me.

861
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,080
Why have I got a different
sheet?

862
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,080
OK, well, I'm obviously not
going to say to you right now

863
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,960
because you are not of a certain
level of attainment.

864
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,200
That means you can do it.
Yeah.

865
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,080
But I also like, you're not
stupid.

866
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,520
I can't lie to you.
What do you I end up saying?

867
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,400
Oh, it's we're doing the same
thing.

868
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,200
Just you might get a little bit
of help.

869
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,080
Yeah.
Even me saying that means that

870
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:09,280
they know they're getting more
help now.

871
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,560
Like like I I don't feel like I
can answer that question

872
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:12,639
truthfully.
It's so true.

873
00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:14,600
Do you know what that exam?
Because that's happened to be

874
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,840
loads of hands as well.
The the situation where a child

875
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,159
has asked me why they've got a
different sheet of someone else

876
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,320
has cringed me out so much more
to the point where like that

877
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:24,480
alone was enough to make me
think.

878
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,120
I would rather they were just in
a group where everyone got this

879
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,320
sheet and there was no, no, they
didn't know any different.

880
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:30,840
Well, they just put them on
tables all together.

881
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,920
So they've all got the sheet
together, that setting, that

882
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,480
setting and it's setting without
different input.

883
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,000
Yeah, which the worst of both
worlds.

884
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,320
We do mixed ability classes, but
we just have each table as a

885
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:42,400
set.
Yeah, right.

886
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,600
OK, So you you are doing the
setting and then then you're

887
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,320
giving them one input instead
of.

888
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,320
If you did setting, you'd have
three or four different inputs

889
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,040
at the level that they need.
I think, I think people that are

890
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,719
still champions of own, like
mixed ability is the only way to

891
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,000
go and there's no place for
setting.

892
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:57,520
I think they need to go to the
next level.

893
00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:59,880
I think they need to in their
school.

894
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:01,320
They need to say we're going to
get rid of year groups.

895
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,440
They have to.
It's the only logical

896
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,520
conclusion.
We don't set by year.

897
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,600
We don't say that just when a
child is born determines their

898
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,920
ability or not.
So we have a completely fluid

899
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,200
system.
I think that's the only logical

900
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:13,960
conclusion.
Just get them all in and every

901
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,000
every single day, but boom,
split up into 30s.

902
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:20,000
Yeah, you're doing long
multiplication today.

903
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,360
I'm I'm full and I can't add
it's don't you know all mixed

904
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,320
ability is better?
Oh dear, you're so naive.

905
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,560
We don't split up the 30s, we
teach the entire school at once

906
00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:32,880
and we just differentiate 18
ways because everyone is

907
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,400
learning place value at the same
time.

908
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:35,840
Yeah, across our school.
True, true.

909
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,120
So there's no reason why they
can't all be in the same room.

910
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,000
Because I don't want some of the
children to realise that they're

911
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:45,840
not as capable as others.
Year 5 and I'm in year 40.

912
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,840
They're older.
Yeah, they're older.

913
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,400
Oh, we just.
Yeah, we do just set them by

914
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,720
year group and then maybe we
just go slightly deeper than

915
00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:52,880
that.
We do our tables and pretend

916
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,440
it's.
No, the line is exactly where it

917
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,440
is Hayden right now, which is
that we set by year group and

918
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:57,600
then we don't do any more
setting at all.

919
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,640
And that happens to be we set,
we set by age, which is the best

920
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,080
way to set.
And then we don't set by

921
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:07,000
attainment, which is awful.
Oh, I I I I reckon.

922
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,560
I reckon setting by age is a
worse way to set children than

923
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,360
attainment is.
Definitely, of course, I

924
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,520
definitely taught children by
year six who who are

925
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,760
significantly significantly of
of different attainment to the

926
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,000
other children in that class.
We're talking years worth of

927
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,600
gaps where really just putting
you in the classroom because

928
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,560
they're in that year group was
actually probably the worst way.

929
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,280
If we're going to do sets to do
that genuinely, genuinely that

930
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:30,440
that is actually not where they
need to be.

931
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,520
Yeah.
And I think this just sums it up

932
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,960
here in terms of I think for
years and years and years.

933
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,320
This new study suggests that the
headline of harm to the low

934
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,840
attainers, which seems to be the
one that's banned about a lot as

935
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,640
to why they don't do it.
We don't harm the low attainers.

936
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:48,960
It it feels like it might not be
the actual truth all of the time

937
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,520
to the extent where it can
really affect you as a school.

938
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,200
I think we just have to look at
this and just go, OK, look,

939
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,280
there's mixed research that we
can even just say that at this

940
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:58,760
point.
There's mixed research here.

941
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,600
Let's think about our setting.
Let's think about every other

942
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,600
aspect to why we might do
setting or mixed ability and

943
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,680
then make a decision that isn't
vilified from one side but is

944
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:10,720
instead rooted in what we think
is best for our school.

945
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:12,360
Definitely.
So here's the fun bit of the

946
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:13,920
podcast episode.
Dylan, anyone listening, if

947
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,120
you've been vehemently agreeing
or disagreeing of parts or

948
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,840
complete disagreement ring, the
fun bit is we're going to

949
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,920
completely switch it up now
because now we're going to talk

950
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,240
through the pros of mixed
ability and I think this is.

951
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,440
Oh, it's empty.
And even though we clearly have

952
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,520
a bias towards the fact that
what we've done our whole career

953
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,080
is I don't think mixed stability
is bad.

954
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,120
Of course I don't just in fact,
in some situations, I know

955
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,120
you're joking.
Some situations, I would almost

956
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,360
always think mixed stability was
the best, the best outcome,

957
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:39,960
like.
So let's go now.

958
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,000
Now through then some some some
points about mixed ability, you

959
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,600
can get a. 100 percent, 100%.
And you know what, Just just you

960
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,160
know, we're going to come on to
workload in a second.

961
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:47,640
People might be thinking what
about workload?

962
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,600
There seems to be obvious
answers here why workload might

963
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,320
be better or worse in these
different situations.

964
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:53,880
We'll come on to that.
We're really just trying to talk

965
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,200
about the actual impact of the
children here.

966
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,160
So yeah, OK, so the labelling
problem we're talking about

967
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,240
confidence doesn't go away just
because this study didn't pick

968
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:01,440
up on it.
And what we're saying here is

969
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:04,760
this was a very specific study.
For example, it just looked at

970
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,560
maths, it's math specific.
self-confidence found a small

971
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,240
negative effect in mixed
attainment schools.

972
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,760
There's a lot of long standing
studies out there and research

973
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,680
again, leaning into what we said
about there's mixed research,

974
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,440
right, Of course, right that the
longer term self concept, it's

975
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,680
more mixed.
OK, the headline here is very

976
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,600
clear.
It says oh it's actually worse

977
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,120
confidence when you do mixed.
But it was only over 2 years.

978
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:27,880
Exactly.
And it was very specific, right.

979
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,520
So, so in general, I think that
the point we're making here is

980
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,760
that we can look at this study
and we can jump on a bandwagon

981
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,200
and say, Oh yeah, it means this
all the time.

982
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,480
There's a lot of research out
there, which is a lot of

983
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,080
different, like you said,
methodologies, a lot of

984
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,440
different backgrounds, a lot of
different, you know, types of

985
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,640
school, etcetera.
I don't think you can just pick

986
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:44,640
it up and wear it.
I agree.

987
00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:46,360
Yeah.
If we're going to the the most

988
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,280
holistic view we possibly can,
which is over the child's entire

989
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,920
career in education, like you
said, there are plenty of

990
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,320
studies that say actually
overall though it does have a

991
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,240
negative.
Impact to to and I can think in

992
00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:59,280
secondary school, you know, like
we were called, you know, I was

993
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,920
in set one, there was set 7, but
I'm not being funny.

994
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,520
Like you're 14.
I'm in set seven.

995
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,120
I can imagine very much that had
detrimentary.

996
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,080
But like you're gonna, you're
gonna have your confidence here

997
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:11,520
in different ways, right?
Yeah.

998
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,760
So that way, it's very, it's
very out there.

999
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,640
It's very public.
You're in set seven, I'm in set

1000
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:16,920
one.
That's obviously gonna hit you,

1001
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,680
but your confidence will be hit
in a different way.

1002
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,640
There's a mixed ability class.
Maybe there's a bit more quiet,

1003
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,040
maybe a bit more like, you know,
introverted way.

1004
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:24,240
Oh God, I can see those doing
that.

1005
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:26,600
I know it's not gonna be a label
of set 7 on me, but my

1006
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,320
confidence might be hit in a
different way where actually I

1007
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,640
see how amazing these people are
at maths and I struggle with it.

1008
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,080
Yeah, potentially.
So there's different ways

1009
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:33,400
confidence.
But that scene is different,

1010
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:34,440
isn't it?
Because like you said, you kind

1011
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,040
of alluded to this before.
Like there are some topics

1012
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,720
within maths though, where you
might find if you're that set

1013
00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:42,560
seven person, you might find
actually I'm not so bad at this

1014
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,800
one and I can benchmark that I'm
not so bad about this because

1015
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,160
because in this lesson, the
children around me, I feel like

1016
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:48,760
I'm doing the same sort of level
of work.

1017
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,520
Like there are opportunities
that ceilings removed in mixed

1018
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:56,160
ability sets for children within
topics fluidly whenever the time

1019
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,000
arises to show what they're made
of rather than just constantly

1020
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,280
thinking I'm in set 7 therefore
I am bad at all maths and the

1021
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:04,840
ceilings put on me straight away
by the teacher anyway.

1022
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,280
I'm not even going to get to
explore potentially how I might

1023
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,840
actually be good at this this
particular area of maths because

1024
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:11,480
the teacher has assumed I'm in
set seven.

1025
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,720
I'm not a good so the worksheets
already low ability for me.

1026
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,200
I think we're we're, we're
touching a bit into quality of

1027
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,640
teaching now as well.
But but you're right in terms of

1028
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,800
that's just a reality.
This is for me one of the

1029
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,200
biggest ones.
It's misallocation.

1030
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,800
It's rampant.
What we're talking about here is

1031
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,800
children in the wrong set.
Ah, yeah, yeah.

1032
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,880
OK, So Connolly ETAL 2019 looked
over 9000 year sevens and found

1033
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:36,440
that 31% of pupils were placed
in the wrong set based on look

1034
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,280
at this, they're key stage 2
scores.

1035
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,960
So I can see why there's a lot
of, you know, looking at this

1036
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,920
and thinking this is just a very
specific, you know, year 7 based

1037
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,360
on key stage 2 scores.
But in general we can see how

1038
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,040
misallocation can be really
problematic.

1039
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:50,640
Of course we can extrapolate
that easily, can't we?

1040
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,800
To assume there's obviously,
obviously it's going to be a

1041
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,360
problem that sometimes children
are going to be in the wrong

1042
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:57,400
sets.
And and the whole point of

1043
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,120
setting is it only works if kids
in the right place.

1044
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:01,440
Yeah.
So if they're not in the right

1045
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,680
place, it's a very obvious
counter argument to say, well,

1046
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,480
setting's not very good then is
it in this situation because

1047
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,320
there are lots of kids who are
now not in the right place.

1048
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,120
Completely and whereas, you
know, it's I'm not sure and I

1049
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,520
know we put this together.
I know the joke was that we

1050
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,560
prefer setting and I do think
there's, there's definitely

1051
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,480
mixed ability is good, but here
it feels more like a positive

1052
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,720
for mixed abilities that some
people do setting badly.

1053
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,720
It's like, oh, kids are
misallocated in the wrong place.

1054
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:28,480
OK, right.
So if we're saying they're

1055
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,080
misallocated, right?
Are they not constantly

1056
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:32,920
misallocated if they're in a
mixed stability set because

1057
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:34,680
they're not even allocated in
the 1st place, They're already

1058
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,280
with the wrong people.
We're saying it's a

1059
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,000
misallocation.
That's interesting if it if it's

1060
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,920
inherently not set at all.
No.

1061
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:42,400
Oh, but they're in the wrong
place here.

1062
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,240
Like, yeah, oh, no, they need to
be in that set.

1063
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,520
Let's put them all in one room
instead and just do one lesson.

1064
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,520
I know, I think, I think there's
a flaw in that argument because

1065
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,920
I think, I think the whole point
of the misallocation becomes

1066
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,640
strong with setting because the
point of sets is there's clear

1067
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,080
ceilings and.
This this is meant to be why

1068
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:57,400
mixed ability is good.
Yeah, yeah.

1069
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,600
But in mixed ability, the idea
is there is no floor and no

1070
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:01,480
ceiling, right.
So the misallocation is kind of,

1071
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:02,640
it's kind of.
Redundant.

1072
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,400
Why is it misallocated?
If they're in the wrong set,

1073
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,360
what does it mean?
What does misallocate so they're

1074
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,040
in the wrong set?
They're misallocated.

1075
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,720
Why is that bad?
Because in that set, inherently

1076
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:12,840
they there will be ceilings on
the level of work they have.

1077
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:14,560
Yeah.
Whereas in in the mixed ability,

1078
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,120
there's complete fluidity.
So they only get fluidity of the

1079
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:18,320
work.
No, it's not inherent.

1080
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,080
It's not inherent.
In good setting teaching.

1081
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:22,560
It's not OK.
OK, so this is.

1082
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,400
Not what we're saying this is.
This is basically saying mixed

1083
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,400
ability is good because if you
do setting bad then this is.

1084
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:28,160
OK, cool.
So.

1085
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:29,320
So ignore that.
I agree.

1086
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:29,720
I agree.
I agree.

1087
00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:30,160
No, no.
So.

1088
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:31,520
This is what I'm saying.
We should be ignoring that.

1089
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,800
We can't be saying that because
if you do setting bad, the mixed

1090
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,040
ability is good.
That's not a reason mixed

1091
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:37,160
ability is good.
You're right, you're right.

1092
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,400
So so in terms of there being a
misallocation, it's like, oh,

1093
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,840
actually they're getting the
wrong input now they're getting

1094
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:43,000
the wrong input and the wrong
task.

1095
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,480
Hello, mixed ability.
There's one input and there's

1096
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,800
seven different levels.
Inherently to me, this is not

1097
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,440
this misallocation thing is not
a reason why mixed ability is

1098
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,960
good It to me, if we're saying
this is a problem with setting,

1099
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:57,680
then it's a huge problem for
mixed.

1100
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,080
So the you're in the wrong place
here that this input's not for

1101
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:02,520
you.
Yeah.

1102
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:04,520
Wow.
So should we go to the one where

1103
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,320
everyone's doing one input and
the vast majority are getting

1104
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,560
the wrong input?
Yeah, it's true.

1105
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:11,320
It's true.
I think I always it's not very

1106
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:12,520
strong.
The input I think is a really

1107
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,000
good argument.
I was thinking more of, and I

1108
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,200
know there's a flaw in this,
which I'll say I was thinking

1109
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,440
more along the lines of tasks.
Like quite often in sets, there

1110
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,000
will be a set task because it's
already they're already

1111
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:23,840
streamlined in terms of the
ability range in that in that

1112
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,480
group.
So it'll just be a task that

1113
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,240
everyone does.
Whereas in the idea in mixed

1114
00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:29,840
ability is that there are a
range of tasks and there's a lot

1115
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,080
more fluidity between children,
what they can do within the

1116
00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:33,920
lesson, which is nonsense.
But I also think it's nonsense

1117
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:35,880
because the end of the day,
that's bad setting.

1118
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,680
Yeah, exactly.
Good setting will still account

1119
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,120
for the children in your class
and constantly be re re

1120
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,160
evaluating and thinking how can
I stretch these children?

1121
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,120
And I, I I would still in my in
my setting, I'd still have a

1122
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:47,160
couple of different things I'm
gonna.

1123
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:48,480
Show me, that's exactly what I'm
saying.

1124
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,560
So good setting.
Yeah, it's like, it's like

1125
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,400
saying if you do setting worse
mixed ability is good.

1126
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,440
Yeah, If we do mixed ability
worse, it's not.

1127
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,280
It's not an inherent reason.
Yeah, yeah, I don't think.

1128
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,320
I think it's an odd one.
OK, so not great evidence so

1129
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,160
far.
So teacher allocation UK and US

1130
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,400
evidence both suggests, as
experienced teachers tend to be

1131
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,720
allocated to lower sets despite
those pupils arguably needing

1132
00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:09,160
the most expert teaching.
The new EEF guidance

1133
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,480
specifically calls this out as
something that you have to fix.

1134
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,480
So again, doing setting bad
right?

1135
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,200
It is though, isn't it really?
I get it.

1136
00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:17,240
OK, so, so in this situation,
right.

1137
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,440
OK, so let's say there's it's
four form entry, there are four

1138
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,480
teachers and you've got an
order. 1 is the best, 4 is the

1139
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:25,680
worst.
Just do right.

1140
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:26,680
OK.
Yep.

1141
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,560
If you do setting and you go OK,
the tops are gonna get teacher

1142
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,800
one and we're gonna go down,
down, down, down, right?

1143
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:32,480
Yeah, sure.
Cool.

1144
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,240
OK, that's bad, isn't it?
That's bad.

1145
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,320
That's bad.
They're getting teacher 4 at the

1146
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:38,360
bottom.
OK.

1147
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,800
Yeah, mixed ability.
Someone's still getting Teacher

1148
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,240
4.
Someone still getting the

1149
00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:44,920
teacher was saying it's worse.
Yeah, it's true.

1150
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,400
And within that class, there
still be children at the bottom

1151
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,040
who need the most support who
actually are getting a worst.

1152
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,320
If it was just teacher four with
those children who are low

1153
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,560
retainers, or it's teacher four
with lower attainers and middle

1154
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,120
attainers and higher attainers,
they're getting a worse deal.

1155
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,360
Yeah, again, to me does not give
a reason as to why inherently

1156
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,520
mixed abilities better.
It's just saying there's a

1157
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,680
problem with with sets.
So we should just do mixed

1158
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:08,800
ability.
The same problem exists.

1159
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,600
If anything it just says oh this
is a nice way of fine tuning to

1160
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,120
make sets even better.
And just to be really clear

1161
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,280
here, I'm kind of pushing it to
the to the Max.

1162
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,760
I actually do think that when
you do set, I do think it's good

1163
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,160
practise to make sure your
strong teachers are with

1164
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:23,440
children who need the most input
and support.

1165
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,280
Because I think if you think
about that teacher #1 being with

1166
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:31,480
the low attainers and four with
the high attainers that I think

1167
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,800
would get better outcomes for
everyone than if you swapped it

1168
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:35,560
around.
I think there's everyone.

1169
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,280
There's more room for movement
with those lower retainers than

1170
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:39,760
there is for movement with the
high retainers.

1171
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,000
There's more room for building
confidence because a lot of the

1172
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:43,280
high attainers already have the
confidence.

1173
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,360
There's more room of getting
children, less foundational

1174
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,440
knowledge and keys skills where
they should be because the tops

1175
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,560
already have that.
So I think that you can still, I

1176
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,960
think, have a preference.
And I do think strong teachers

1177
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:56,880
should not be glossed over for
those lower.

1178
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:01,240
It's kind of a, it's a, it's a
really annoying analogy really,

1179
00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:02,560
because it's like, it's like a
lose, lose situation.

1180
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,560
Because I could easily counter
that by saying, well, by

1181
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,080
definition, you're falling into
the trap of it's better for

1182
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:10,560
everyone because the gap's
smaller at the end, because

1183
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:11,880
you've put your strongest
teacher with the lowest

1184
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:13,440
attainment, so they've made more
progress.

1185
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,720
And if that stronger teacher was
with the top attainers instead

1186
00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:18,840
of the the weakest teacher, the
top attainers would have made

1187
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:20,320
more progress than they did with
the weakest teacher.

1188
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,280
So the gap smaller looks better.
Whereas realistically at the end

1189
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,520
of the day though those top
attainers we chose, they were

1190
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,120
the worst option for them.
So I think or everything we said

1191
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,440
there is absolutely true of a
certain level, there's a certain

1192
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:34,800
low attainment where I'm like,
yeah, what we just said is true,

1193
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,040
everyone be brought up, right.
I think there is a level lower

1194
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,880
where that is vital and comes
first.

1195
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,400
Sure.
So if children can't add, if

1196
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,720
children can't recognise number,
if children are that far behind

1197
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,040
that they literally they can't
sabotize, right.

1198
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,880
And they're in year 3-4 and
five, they need the strongest

1199
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:54,040
teachers to get into a certain
level.

1200
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:55,360
Yeah.
So I just think there's a little

1201
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,800
cap there where I'm like, OK,
what?

1202
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,800
You've just heard me explain it
exactly what I think when in

1203
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:01,680
general.
Yeah, Yeah.

1204
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,080
But if the lowest of the lowest
of the low, they need that

1205
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,120
targeted really quality good
support to get to that level

1206
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,640
where I'm saying that's cool, by
the way, that isn't the expected

1207
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,240
level.
No, no, there's loads of

1208
00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:12,600
children working in the working
towards it's.

1209
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,840
On their journey.
It's on it's on the maximising

1210
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:16,920
their journey.
Like they need that really,

1211
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:18,920
really specific input.
But I agree completely.

1212
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:20,920
I agree completely.
I just, I think it's I think

1213
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,760
it's a good thing to because
when you're constantly only

1214
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,160
giving your best teachers to
your best children, you are

1215
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,000
making that choice to exacerbate
it right?

1216
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,720
Always.
And it's like what I'm saying is

1217
00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:34,400
there should be no preference.
It should just be who gets what.

1218
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:36,600
It doesn't matter.
It shouldn't just always be the

1219
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,920
lowest, always get what we
define as the worst teacher.

1220
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:40,880
It shouldn't be like that.
No, no, it shouldn't really

1221
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:42,280
matter.
What you should do is look at

1222
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:43,680
your teachers and look at your
kids and see what they.

1223
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,720
Need exactly it should it should
be bespoke every single year.

1224
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:47,280
Yeah, genuinely, all of this
stuff should be bespoke.

1225
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:48,720
We we, we did that were sets,
didn't we?

1226
00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:50,880
We always said when we we did,
we did setting.

1227
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:52,840
You know, we had a free form
Junior School.

1228
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,560
We did setting some years we
didn't.

1229
00:47:55,720 --> 00:47:57,960
Yeah, because we looked at the
data, we looked at the children,

1230
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,600
we listened to the teachers from
last year and we would sometimes

1231
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,680
say, let's do mixed, that would
happen.

1232
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,120
We had a hybrid.
Most of the time we came to the

1233
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,080
conclusion that setting was the
right thing to do.

1234
00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:11,840
But setting in year 4 and Year 5
and year 6 looked different,

1235
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:13,760
looked completely different
because it was based on what

1236
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:14,840
the.
Child, we always looked at the

1237
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,040
cohort that's absolutely right.
And it was always, basically, it

1238
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,480
was honestly, it was basically
always a hybrid because even

1239
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:21,720
even setting, we didn't do it in
the traditional format of

1240
00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:23,520
literally chunk the children.
Not always the.

1241
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:28,120
Children 1 to 96 and do the
direct chance quite often, at

1242
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,240
least in my experience, we, we
literally just looked at the

1243
00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:32,960
cohort and then eased in their
attainment and just thought,

1244
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,240
what do they, what do these kids
need?

1245
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,440
Do we need to take the top 32
children and the next 30

1246
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:39,600
children or can they just all be
mixed?

1247
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:41,240
Sometimes they're like, they can
just be mixed.

1248
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,800
That's, that's absolutely fine.
OK, but do we need to take the,

1249
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,160
the, the lowest 60 entertainers?
Do you know what actually,

1250
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,480
they've got significant gaps
here from this point onwards and

1251
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:49,680
they can see they've got a lot
of similarities.

1252
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,040
I think they'd benefit from
being in one, in one place

1253
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,840
together with this particular
teacher who's, and we'd look at

1254
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:56,840
that every single time and, and
that's how it should be done.

1255
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,320
But anyway, back to this, this
is so I feel like we're just

1256
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,280
kind of dismantling the, the
arguments for mixed ability.

1257
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,520
But here's another one though,
that I, that I, I always, I feel

1258
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:07,240
like I could dismantle this a
bit, but I feel like this is

1259
00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:10,680
what always got thrown at me
constantly my whole career.

1260
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:12,520
I got told this was true and I
was a bad teacher, but I didn't

1261
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,560
agree with it, right?
It's the whole effects of peers,

1262
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,760
right?
So Vygotsky zone of proximal

1263
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:19,480
development, all, all this
research you learn when you're,

1264
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:21,120
when you're, when you're
training to be a teacher, right?

1265
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,360
A lot of qualitative work
suggests that lower attainers

1266
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,000
can and will benefit from being
around and surrounded by the

1267
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,000
higher attainers.
OK.

1268
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,720
And by being near, near those
more capable peers, they will

1269
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:36,040
learn from them, also resolve
from them and, and people.

1270
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:37,840
And, and that's, that's true,
right?

1271
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,960
But what people say to me is
there's no loss in this.

1272
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,560
This is a benefit to everybody
because the higher attainers

1273
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,520
will learn more by teaching and
helping those children that are

1274
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,360
lower attainers than them, and
the lower attainers will benefit

1275
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,200
from it.
As if that's like the perfect

1276
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,240
diss all solved.
And I have always, always

1277
00:49:55,240 --> 00:49:57,440
struggled with that.
And.

1278
00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,200
Yeah.
And I know you have as well and

1279
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,240
you're probably just come in.
No, no, no, go on.

1280
00:50:01,240 --> 00:50:03,600
I'll jump in because I feel like
we've basically addressed this

1281
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,400
already in this episode.
We've we have agreed, I don't

1282
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,480
know if you agree as well
listening, but we have agreed

1283
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:13,360
that if, if I set with the
higher attainers, I can push

1284
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,000
them on more than I than I could
have done if they're enigibility

1285
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,160
set and the research we started
with kind of backed that up as

1286
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,240
well.
So what are we saying then,

1287
00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:23,080
which one's true?
Because if we're also saying

1288
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,600
none of the higher achievers
will will achieve more in a

1289
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,680
mixed ability set because they
can help the lower attainers.

1290
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:29,840
This comes to a point, right
where I just thought in my

1291
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:31,000
career I was like, oh, no,
that's not true.

1292
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:32,720
We just say that, yeah, it's
that's not that's not true.

1293
00:50:32,720 --> 00:50:34,160
It's copium.
Yeah, yeah, exactly that.

1294
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:35,760
It's copium.
Copium with the highest order,

1295
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:37,560
yeah.
We just say that justify it.

1296
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:38,760
Yeah, we just have to.
We have to.

1297
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,400
We just don't want to accept the
fact that in a mixed ability set

1298
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,200
in a lot of in a lot of
circumstances, those higher

1299
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:45,760
achievers actually won't make as
much progress.

1300
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:47,880
And actually, do you know what
the most beneficial thing for

1301
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,120
them is actually not helping a
child who's who has lower

1302
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:52,960
attainment than them.
That's actually not the best

1303
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:54,680
thing for them to do.
The best thing to do is be

1304
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:56,840
pushed even more completely and
not have anything to do that

1305
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,400
other child.
Yeah, there is to say.

1306
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,360
That no, there is, there is
definitely something to be said,

1307
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,120
which is what this rooted in
again, where the ability to

1308
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,160
explain what you're thinking or
understand.

1309
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:07,680
So let's say a child is really
proficient with long

1310
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,000
multiplication, right?
But the act of getting that

1311
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,080
child to really explain in
detail what they're doing at

1312
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,160
each step and why is a good way
of forcing a child to really

1313
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,040
think about it, to express
themselves.

1314
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,200
It's good oracy, it's good to
check for understanding and it's

1315
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,800
actually good.
If you're able to explain

1316
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,280
something at a lower and lower
level, then that shows it.

1317
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,120
I think it's it's widely
accepted that shows a mastery of

1318
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:30,520
the.
Subject.

1319
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:31,680
Yeah, like conceptual
competence.

1320
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:34,600
Yeah, like based on who's in
front of you, you can change how

1321
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:36,880
you articulate something so they
understand it, right.

1322
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:39,640
We've seen these videos online
of astrophysicists explained

1323
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,080
like a black hole to five
different things.

1324
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,280
And it's it's a four year old, a
10 year old, a 16 year old

1325
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:47,080
graduate and a doctor.
True mastery.

1326
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:48,520
Yeah.
And, and the conversations are

1327
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:50,560
fantastic because they're
getting across the same point

1328
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:52,760
but at different levels.
There's something to be said for

1329
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:54,800
children who are really good at
maths, being able to do that and

1330
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,160
support and help, right.
Not every single day of every

1331
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,520
single lesson.
That becomes copium.

1332
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,280
That becomes when I say copium
for anyone, it's not, it's not

1333
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:04,680
an element.
I'm just saying it's cope.

1334
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:07,520
It's the way we cope with the
fact that which we, we, we

1335
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,160
really deep down, yeah, we deep
down we know it's not the best

1336
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,440
for them, but we try and find a
way of coping with that.

1337
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:14,800
And that's by us saying, oh,
it's good for them, isn't it?

1338
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,120
No at.
Least they're developing this

1339
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,000
little subset of skills that we
know is important.

1340
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:19,840
But like you said, doing it all
the time, every single day,

1341
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:21,880
every single day, probably not
the most beneficial thing for

1342
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:23,640
them to be doing on an
individual level.

1343
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:27,120
And it's always that battle to
me of like, how much do we care

1344
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,160
about the meta?
And we're looking at, you know,

1345
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,880
children in general.
Is it, is it just about bringing

1346
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,000
the lower attainers up at any
cost?

1347
00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:36,880
Because if that's the case,
that's a good argument.

1348
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:41,640
If if we look at individuals and
say what is best for this

1349
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,600
individual at this moment,
regardless of any other factor,

1350
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,600
I think there are situations in
mixed ability where you can't

1351
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,480
say that's the best outcome for
that exact child in the.

1352
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:51,040
Season.
Of course not.

1353
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:53,040
Of course not.
And you know what, if you do set

1354
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,320
and have a lower attainment
class like I used to have, they

1355
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,160
can still talk to each other.
By the way, there are still

1356
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:58,960
children who get things and
children who course there's a

1357
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:00,360
range.
I help them.

1358
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:04,080
Yeah, because it tends to be in
not always, but you can become

1359
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,320
become aware of trends and ideas
of things which your children

1360
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:08,920
might not get and you can help
them you can group them

1361
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:10,080
together.
It's just more.

1362
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:11,400
Effective.
Yeah, because it's because your

1363
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,040
your understanding of the group
that you have as a teacher is

1364
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:17,000
immediately reducing scope in a
lot of circumstances.

1365
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:18,600
Not always.
This is the beauty of being an

1366
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:20,240
adaptive teacher.
There'll be sometimes where you

1367
00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:22,400
think, crikey, they absolutely
could have coped in that other

1368
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,760
set today, cool, you're a good
teacher because you recognise

1369
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,800
that you adapted to it.
But a lot of the time you can

1370
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,240
notice those trends and you can
really focus and nail down on

1371
00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:32,520
the thing that this group are
typically like to likely to find

1372
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:33,920
hard.
Absolutely.

1373
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:35,760
OK.
Another one here then for mixed

1374
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,240
stability is about curriculum
compression in lower sets.

1375
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,400
Again, it's a negative
offsetting, not necessarily a

1376
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:43,960
positive for for for mixed
ability.

1377
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,280
But let's have a look.
The research literature is clear

1378
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:49,480
that lower sets often get
narrower, slower, and less rich

1379
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,400
curriculum.
If your lower set is doing

1380
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,960
arithmetic drills while the top
set is doing reasoning and

1381
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,720
proof, the gap can never close
by design.

1382
00:53:57,360 --> 00:53:59,120
I fundamentally disagree with
that.

1383
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:01,800
Why?
Because the because if the if

1384
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,480
children can't do arithmetic,
then their reasoning and their

1385
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,000
problem solving is going to be
shot to pieces.

1386
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,360
There is a reason.
It's a foundational basis, a

1387
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,160
reason one, the thing leads on
to another.

1388
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,920
I'm not saying children should
never do reasoning at all.

1389
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:14,880
You should always be doing
reasoning and problem solving

1390
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:16,640
based on things that you're
proficient and fluent in.

1391
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:20,600
But of course, of course what
you deliver is going to look

1392
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:22,040
different in lower sets to
higher sets.

1393
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:23,880
What's the point in doing it
otherwise?

1394
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,400
And I think it's just naive to
think that.

1395
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:29,520
So we use the words here,
narrower, slower and less rich.

1396
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:31,400
No one wants a less rich
curriculum.

1397
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,080
No, I think that, again, this is
a teaching problem, not a

1398
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:35,440
setting problem.
It's a teaching problem.

1399
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:37,440
I've taught lower sets.
We've had a really rich

1400
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:38,400
curriculum.
We've covered the whole

1401
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,440
curriculum.
Still slower.

1402
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:45,000
Yeah, that's kind of the point.
Yeah, it was slower, obviously.

1403
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,040
What?
Oh, you do lower sets, they'll

1404
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,360
get a slower curriculum.
I'm just adapting to their.

1405
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,640
Yeah, as I say, it's not slower
by design, it's slower by it's

1406
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:53,400
it's adaptation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1407
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,600
They needed to go more slowly on
this because they didn't

1408
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:57,480
understand it.
Yeah, they needed to spend more

1409
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,040
time doing the arithmetic
because they can't do.

1410
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,360
It the idea that everyone knows
at the same pace is absurd.

1411
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,680
It's what I mean and it's
basically saying, well, some

1412
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:05,600
kids will get a slower ones to
get them in a mixed ability but

1413
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,360
where they can't keep up.
Is that better to you just

1414
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:10,040
because it's not got the word
slower in front of it?

1415
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:13,640
So much of this and the
arguments I've always seen to me

1416
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:15,440
has really sounded like virtue
signalling.

1417
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:18,200
So you can't say ability.
Oh no, you can't go slower.

1418
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:19,640
Oh no, it's less rich.
You can't do.

1419
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:24,080
These kids can't do maths.
I'm helping them do maths.

1420
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,000
I'm meeting them where they are
and being an adaptable teacher.

1421
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,680
I am going slower and I'm going
into more detail where I need

1422
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:30,880
to.
I'm giving them more chance to

1423
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,280
practise the things they could
not do if they were just lumped

1424
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,720
together in one homogeneous BLOB
where everyone's just mixed,

1425
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:38,720
where it just happens to be.
They had the birthday between

1426
00:55:38,720 --> 00:55:42,760
September and August.
Why is that more of an adequate

1427
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,480
way of grouping together
children than whether they can

1428
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,840
actually do the thing or not?
That should be the only thing

1429
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:50,560
that matters.
It shouldn't matter what their

1430
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,680
backgrounds are like.
It shouldn't matter what age.

1431
00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:54,520
None of that should matter.
Can they do it?

1432
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:55,600
Yes.
Cool.

1433
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:56,520
Can they not?
Cool.

1434
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,960
We're going to help them.
Have they got, you know, are

1435
00:55:59,960 --> 00:56:05,120
they, are they just children who
will struggle to work at that

1436
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,200
pace?
Yes, go slower.

1437
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:09,720
Then it's not a bad thing.
I guess the counter arguments,

1438
00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:12,000
what you just said is kind of
what you just said in terms of

1439
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,680
people understandably say that
you shouldn't group children on

1440
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,400
their prior attainment, which is
what setting equally is.

1441
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,880
Is that understandable kind of
like because you're saying, you

1442
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:21,400
know, can they do it or can't
they do it?

1443
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:22,480
I don't know.
I haven't talked to me yet.

1444
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:23,760
Yeah, but we can get a good
idea.

1445
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:25,960
We can.
We can, but like.

1446
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:27,840
That's why sets need to be fluid
as well.

1447
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:30,560
That's an that's a very
important counter argument.

1448
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,000
But I can, but I do.
I can empathise when people say

1449
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,360
we are just assuming.
We're constantly assuming.

1450
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,000
By putting a child into a set,
we are assuming what they can

1451
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,160
and can't do across the entire.
Master, are we are we though?

1452
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:44,000
Because what my point, no, my
point is that it's adaptable.

1453
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:45,720
It's slow.
It's not slow because I've

1454
00:56:45,720 --> 00:56:48,160
already decided it's slower.
It's slow because that that

1455
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:49,600
class needed to go slower at
that point.

1456
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:51,840
And there would be some children
who needed to go quicker

1457
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,000
probably, But in a mixed ability
class, there'd be far more

1458
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:55,120
children who needed to go
quicker.

1459
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,040
So we're just narrowing that.
We're narrowing that base of

1460
00:56:58,040 --> 00:56:59,800
like there are fewer children
not getting what they need.

1461
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:01,280
Yeah, right.
We're just narrowing it.

1462
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,240
Are we making assumptions?
You know, we make assumptions

1463
00:57:03,240 --> 00:57:05,760
all of of the time.
All of the time we're making

1464
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:07,280
assumptions.
It's based on pattern spotting,

1465
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,480
it's based on seeing what
children can do and we make that

1466
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:11,440
assumption.
Then we assess, then we test,

1467
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:13,400
then we gap analyse, then we
teach and then we move.

1468
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:15,320
We move.
It has to be adaptable.

1469
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:16,680
It has to be adaptable is the
word.

1470
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,640
Adaptable covers everything.
We make predictions and

1471
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:23,000
assumptions and then we adapt.
Whether that's moving children

1472
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:24,840
from class to class, whether
that's my speed, whether that's

1473
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,760
what I cover, Whatever it is,
it's quality first.

1474
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:30,160
Teaching can make it work and
make it better.

1475
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:32,960
But if we just say setting's bad
because sometimes teachers are

1476
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:34,000
bad.
Yeah.

1477
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:36,480
That that OK, Does that mean
setting's bad?

1478
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:38,760
No.
Does that mean university's bad

1479
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:40,640
because sometimes when people
finish university as bad

1480
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:41,560
teachers?
No.

1481
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:43,120
It's just a matter of.
Fact.

1482
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,560
I reckon people's arguments have
generally can be summarised over

1483
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,440
over the years of if you've got
the bad teacher, it's better for

1484
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:51,040
them to be in a mixed ability
set than a than a than a than a

1485
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:52,000
than a set set.
Why?

1486
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,200
I think that's what people think
because because at least in the

1487
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,600
mix of set, then if you're if
you're doing setting badly

1488
00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:59,200
because you've narrowed the
curriculum, you've made really

1489
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:00,280
bad assumptions about the
children.

1490
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:01,600
You've narrowed it so much.
They're not, you're not even

1491
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:03,520
giving them a chance to excel in
areas like maybe could have

1492
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,280
excelled in, right.
But in the mixed ability set by

1493
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:09,000
design, you're forced to open
that, open that gap anyway.

1494
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,440
There's fluidity built in with
within the class from them.

1495
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:13,480
And those children that would
have been put in this horrible

1496
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:17,200
ceiling before by design are now
by design, accidentally.

1497
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:18,920
The teachers know it because
they're not a good teacher

1498
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:20,440
accidentally.
If there's a bit more fluidity

1499
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:22,760
and they can, they can access
some stuff that they that they

1500
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:24,440
can actually do that maybe you
wouldn't have thought they could

1501
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:25,600
do if you were based on
presumptions.

1502
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:27,600
I think that's like the core
essence of this.

1503
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:31,800
Potentially that is that is
still though different that that

1504
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:33,480
person you're saying is not a
great teacher is still doing

1505
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:35,640
different teaching styles
because in the mixed ability

1506
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:36,960
they're planning for different
abilities.

1507
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:38,960
Yeah, I still think within a set
you should be planning for

1508
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:40,920
different abilities as well.
Yeah, it's still, it's still a

1509
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:44,240
shortcoming of of, of of looking
a set to something different.

1510
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:46,520
It's still a shortcoming.
There, but I can see why if you

1511
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:48,400
know, if you're catering to the
lowest common denominator of

1512
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,240
teaching ability, I can see why
people land on the idea of if

1513
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:53,520
we're playing it safe.
I I got mixed ability on sets.

1514
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:55,320
I really, yeah.
I mean, I really disagree

1515
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:58,440
because I I, I fundamentally
think that if you make, if

1516
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:00,360
you're going to make mixed
ability work, you need the best

1517
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:02,360
teachers.
I think it's the yeah, yeah, No,

1518
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:04,440
I think, I think it's.
The funny enough, I also think

1519
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:05,840
that, but I do think that's what
people think.

1520
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:09,040
Yeah, potentially and and let's
let's let's let's get on then I

1521
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,280
make because of this episode's
really getting on and that when

1522
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:12,840
mom and me and we planned out
loads more.

1523
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:14,640
But I think we just need to wrap
it up with this next section

1524
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,120
because I really want to talk
about reality.

1525
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:18,560
That's kind of what this was.
That's what I was leading into

1526
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,320
of that last bit.
The reality, we can sit here and

1527
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:23,520
talk about pedagogical
approaches and ideologies all

1528
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:25,520
day long.
And at the end of the day, the,

1529
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:27,760
the hilarious pointless
conclusion is if you're a really

1530
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:30,200
good teacher, it doesn't matter.
That's the conclusion really.

1531
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:32,560
Oh, if you're a really good
teacher, none of these, none of

1532
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:34,960
these things even come into
effect anyway.

1533
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:36,680
It's like, OK, well, the
research says that not

1534
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:37,520
everyone's a good teacher,
though.

1535
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:39,560
That's why they found these
things exist in the 1st place,

1536
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,440
because a chunk of teachers are
doing setting badly or are doing

1537
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:43,920
mixed ability.
Right, right, right, right.

1538
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:47,120
So the, the reality I want, I
want to get into now is the

1539
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,320
manageability of these two
systems.

1540
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:52,920
And this was a huge factor for,
for me personally as to why I

1541
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:55,520
would always err on the side of
let's see if we can make setting

1542
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,480
work because the workload is
greatly reduced, greatly

1543
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:01,120
reduced.
Like you just said, that

1544
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:05,160
teacher, if we're going to the
lowest common denominator and we

1545
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:06,920
say, OK, we'll just put them in
a mixed ability because at least

1546
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:08,600
the children then have got
accidentally, they've got

1547
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:10,560
chances for a bit of mobility in
the tasks they do.

1548
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:14,160
Well, not necessarily.
Not necessarily, because it is

1549
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:17,920
incredibly, incredibly hard to
accurately and adequately

1550
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,720
resource.
Yeah, a lesson that's pitched at

1551
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:22,720
the entirety of the range of
ability within your year.

1552
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:23,600
Group.
Well, what we're saying then,

1553
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:25,480
because that would suggest to me
that mixed ability is more

1554
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:27,520
workload.
That's exactly that's exactly

1555
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:28,760
what.
I'm saying so, so, but I, I

1556
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:30,960
always, I always thought mixed
ability is less workload because

1557
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:32,880
you can share planning.
So it depends on your setting.

1558
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:34,360
That's interesting.
I don't think there's, I don't

1559
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:36,760
think there's, I don't, I don't
think there's, I don't think

1560
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:38,320
that one jumps out than the
other.

1561
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:39,400
So I'm really interested what
you think.

1562
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:42,000
I I don't see one as more or
less workload in terms of

1563
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,920
planning because I think for
example, we have four form

1564
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,680
entry.
We did mixed ability classes in

1565
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:49,720
year 3.
We shared planning the whole

1566
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:51,240
time.
I did less math planning than

1567
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:53,680
ever before because we were
sharing that across the board.

1568
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:55,560
Yeah, okay.
Within the lesson, maybe it went

1569
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:57,680
more deeply.
Maybe I had a different more

1570
01:00:57,680 --> 01:00:59,640
routes for children to go to and
if they finished early they

1571
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:01,960
could get on to something.
But in general, I was planning

1572
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:03,760
way less.
And then when I did my sets in

1573
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:06,560
year 4, I, I was planning every
week because that was my

1574
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:07,600
specific set.
And then children need

1575
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:09,000
something.
So I had more workload when I

1576
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,480
went to sets and less workload
when I was in, when I was in

1577
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:12,880
mixed.
And, but I, I don't think it

1578
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:13,960
automatically is one or the
other.

1579
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:15,360
No, you're absolutely right.
And actually, it's a.

1580
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:17,120
It's a good point to.
To consider because obviously in

1581
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,080
a in a single form school that's
completely flipped again, it's

1582
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:20,320
not it's not even flipped, is
it?

1583
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:21,360
It's the same workload no
matter.

1584
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:22,600
Well, it's.
Not because now you're you're

1585
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:24,360
planning, if you're planning for
a set I, I, I.

1586
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:26,480
I think if you don't, you're
think you're going right If you

1587
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:28,600
were the only person planning I.
Think I think it's it's harder.

1588
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:30,720
To planning, I think it's really
it's harder to plan from it's

1589
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:32,120
but there are obviously
situations that you's right

1590
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:34,080
yeah, so but there are obviously
situations like you just said

1591
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:35,800
where if you've got share
planning and obviously.

1592
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:37,600
Makes no You're right though,
because, because I'm not being

1593
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:39,160
funny.
The the wider your breadth of

1594
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:41,920
children, the more you feel like
you need to cater them, the more

1595
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:43,360
you feel like you need to.
Plan, of course, it's just.

1596
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:44,400
That so if you're not sharing,
it's.

1597
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:45,360
Right.
That's the natural way of

1598
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:46,240
things.
But you're right though, there's

1599
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:48,080
obviously a scale there
depending on the context of your

1600
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:49,680
school.
But the other one that I think

1601
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:52,640
is less of a scale and maybe you
can come back with this one is

1602
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:54,960
the manageability in general.
I don't think it makes a

1603
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,480
difference between whether you
are single form or form entry

1604
01:01:57,480 --> 01:01:58,960
planning, sharing planning or
not.

1605
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:04,120
But how easy it is to manage and
how effectively you can manage a

1606
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:05,520
class.
I think is where the scale is

1607
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:09,520
right in terms of teaching
ability is how effectively can

1608
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:12,760
you manage a mixed ability class
in that hour that you're

1609
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:14,240
teaching maths.
I think that's where the scope

1610
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:17,600
massively changes.
There are two answers to this

1611
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,960
managing in terms of what you're
preparing pedagogically in your

1612
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:23,920
lesson.
Managing in terms of behaviour,

1613
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:26,080
right.
In terms of behaviour.

1614
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:28,040
A lot of people pushed back and
said mixed ability is better for

1615
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:29,960
behaviour.
And the reason is because again,

1616
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:31,720
if you just think about children
who are more reluctant

1617
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,160
mathematicians, if they're all
in one room, they're all

1618
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:35,480
bouncing off each other.
They don't want to do what

1619
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:37,320
they're doing.
It can be harder to harder to

1620
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,480
cultivate that that need.
That's what a lot of people said

1621
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:41,480
on the real.
I've just found I've not found

1622
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:43,280
that myself personally, but I'm
not saying that doesn't happen.

1623
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:45,040
No, absolutely I can understand
it completely.

1624
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:48,480
Whereas when you're talking
about managing it in terms of

1625
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:51,640
just simply being able to
produce the less and, and like

1626
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:56,240
literally in the lesson, getting
through adding two numbers

1627
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:59,240
together with exchanging with
that breadth of, of ability in

1628
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:03,320
your class or attainment, sorry,
is obviously harder than if it's

1629
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:04,680
set.
And when they're set, there's,

1630
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,400
there's still a breadth of
ability there, but it's smaller.

1631
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:10,080
And the the simple way I can
just say to someone that that's

1632
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,200
obviously true is that if you
then went for your mixed ability

1633
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:15,520
year five class, if I said to
you, now you've got a mixed with

1634
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:18,600
year 4, you gotta have a year
4-5 mixed class, which happens

1635
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:21,360
up and down the country.
Is that is that going to be

1636
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:25,480
easier, the same or harder to
manage the massively increased

1637
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:26,560
pull of ability in your
classroom?

1638
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:30,280
It's obviously harder.
Of course, let's go one step

1639
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:31,760
further.
The whole of key stage 2IN1

1640
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:35,080
classroom doing something, is
that easier, the same or harder?

1641
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,880
Very clearly harder.
Why do we pretend that going one

1642
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:42,120
step more granular within a year
group is suddenly the end of the

1643
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:44,080
world and makes no difference?
It's stupid, it's bad, it's all

1644
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:46,600
for it's violence.
Is it violence to have year 4

1645
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:47,760
and five different?
Yeah.

1646
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:53,280
No, it's complete nonsense.
Of course, of course it's harder

1647
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:58,320
to manage a mixed ability with a
much wider range of children in

1648
01:03:58,320 --> 01:03:59,960
the.
Class I've taught, I had one

1649
01:03:59,960 --> 01:04:02,160
year of my career where I taught
in A1 form school when I was in

1650
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:04,480
year 6 and it was a mixed
ability class obviously, because

1651
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:07,160
it's one form.
And I can tell you right now

1652
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:12,080
that the challenges I faced and
the imposter syndromes I got

1653
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:14,840
sometimes where I've where it
because I found it so

1654
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:19,000
unbelievably difficult to cater
adequately as I wanted to cater

1655
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:20,960
for all of the needs in that
child for every single mouse

1656
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,400
doesn't at all times.
And and it just got to the point

1657
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:26,520
I was like, Oh, I can't.
You get to the point where you

1658
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:28,640
realise, oh, of course I can't.
That's why sex exist.

1659
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:31,760
Because if I did, if I had half
of these children and it was the

1660
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:35,080
lowest attainers, I would
obviously tailor my input

1661
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:37,040
differently to how I'm doing it
right now and it would be better

1662
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:39,200
for them.
Yeah, so I've got, so it's to

1663
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:41,400
push back there because my, my
gut instinct again, I'm going to

1664
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:43,720
just stick to this because we've
definitely veered more towards,

1665
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:45,200
we're going to be very neutral
in the middle.

1666
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:47,160
Well, you obviously prefer sets.
We're geared towards sets.

1667
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:48,560
You basically said you can't do
it.

1668
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:50,440
I'm going to push back and say
you obviously can.

1669
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:52,760
There are lots of schools out
there, lots of people listening

1670
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:54,880
right now who are teachers who
are advocate for mixed ability,

1671
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,360
who maybe even are advocates,
but have done it themselves for

1672
01:04:57,360 --> 01:04:59,200
years and they see that
obviously it can work.

1673
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:01,400
So I just want to just make this
really clear to people and just

1674
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:03,480
get your input.
Obviously can, right?

1675
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:04,800
Yeah.
But I felt like I couldn't in

1676
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,040
that moment because that,
because it was so hard to manage

1677
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:09,160
is what I'm trying to say.
I felt like I couldn't manage,

1678
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:10,200
which was the overall point
here.

1679
01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:13,440
I felt like I couldn't manage
keeping on top of everything in

1680
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:15,640
that classroom.
It took a lot more energy and a

1681
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:17,480
lot more time and it did
ultimately impact my workload

1682
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,120
and stress.
And I think that's the reality

1683
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:22,160
that I want to talk about.
I'm not saying you can't make

1684
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:23,880
mixed ability work.
There are probably a lot of

1685
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,360
better teachers out there than
me who in that situation would

1686
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:28,080
have been, come on you novice
out of the way.

1687
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:31,000
I know exactly how to manage the
situation and done a phenomenal

1688
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:33,720
job.
But for me as a pretty good

1689
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:37,640
maths teacher, I looked at that
situation and thought if I could

1690
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:40,360
just split this class in half, I
would get more out of every

1691
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:42,560
single child here.
And I just would.

1692
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:46,680
And that is the reality for me.
And honestly a huge percentage

1693
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:48,600
of teachers.
And I can't get over that fact.

1694
01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:50,840
And it is the one thing to me
whenever this argument comes

1695
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:53,480
down, I'm always like, I always
on the side of streaming because

1696
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,400
I'm like, do you know what?
Not everyone is the top 1% of

1697
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,000
teachers.
They're just not like by

1698
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:01,320
definition as I work.
So there are, there are going to

1699
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:03,240
be hundreds of thousands of
teachers who I will struggle

1700
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:05,600
equally like I do and actually
not do a very good job.

1701
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:08,000
No one wants to say that but not
do a very good job for any of

1702
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:09,400
the children in the class
because it was too hard to.

1703
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:12,800
Manage and that's why earlier I
disagreed when I said that going

1704
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:15,040
mixed ability means that your
weaker teachers are fine.

1705
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:16,960
No, I think they flounder.
It's harder.

1706
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:19,040
Yeah, it's much harder, I think.
I think, I think if it's if it's

1707
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:22,280
set, if it's a set situation, it
just it just helps them because

1708
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:24,040
it just shrinks it.
That's that's what I think.

1709
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:24,720
And I think that's.
True.

1710
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:26,560
And no one likes to hear that.
People don't like to hear that

1711
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:28,960
because it's accepting.
It's accepting realities that

1712
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:31,920
not every teacher is is an
incredible mathematician, or

1713
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:33,880
incredible.
I'm sorry, you know, I'm, I'm

1714
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:34,680
sorry.
Practitioner.

1715
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:37,880
Have you met?
I trained with someone who was

1716
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:41,000
teaching a year two class who
was about to do a lesson on time

1717
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:43,320
and said to me before they
struggle with quarter past.

1718
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:48,120
No, no, no, I'm sorry because
this is true.

1719
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:50,680
This is real.
Yeah, it's awful.

1720
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:54,480
And let's be honest, we have
both taught in lots of schools

1721
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:56,640
and met lots of teachers who
say, oh, I could never do year

1722
01:06:56,640 --> 01:06:58,360
six.
Yeah, I could never.

1723
01:06:58,360 --> 01:06:59,960
I could never teach your six.
It's too tricky.

1724
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:02,160
I'm not going to say anything
more about that.

1725
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:03,520
I'll let you think what you
think about that.

1726
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:06,200
But it does show there's
obviously a massive breadth of

1727
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:08,920
teachers abilities across all of
the subjects and in general,

1728
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:10,840
their pedagogy, their
practitioner ability.

1729
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:16,120
It's a very complex job, so to
go with the ideology that works

1730
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:20,160
when everyone is the best
practitioner in the world, to me

1731
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:22,520
is a really, really annoying
argument that has pissed me off

1732
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:24,680
over the last 10 years.
Because I'm like, yeah, but can

1733
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:26,480
we stop ignoring the fact that
we're not, though?

1734
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:29,160
Can we stop ignoring the fact
that most teachers actually

1735
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:30,480
aren't this good?
It's right.

1736
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:32,160
We've got a red sheet.
We've got a red sheet, red on

1737
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:32,880
the green.
It's fine.

1738
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:34,320
That's a differentiation.
It's all good.

1739
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:35,000
It's all good.
It's fine.

1740
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:37,080
We've got differentiation.
We've got three different tasks.

1741
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:39,400
You can do the same input.
Everyone's going to, you know.

1742
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:41,840
Hey, then I've always said it.
A rising tide raises all boats.

1743
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:44,720
Say that again.
I thought it might be.

1744
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:46,720
You're so right.
The, the line between reality,

1745
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:49,960
it is it, it seems distorted.
And, and, and just to, just to

1746
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:53,520
make this point, this rounding
off point here, OK, it's, it's

1747
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:57,800
as straightforward as this.
People who've spent 10 years

1748
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:00,960
telling me that setting is
inherently bad and awful and

1749
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:04,200
terrible for the kids.
I just hope that what this does

1750
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:07,880
is make them realise that
they're being over the top.

1751
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:09,440
They're on a bit of a high
horse.

1752
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:12,520
It's completely acceptable to
set because children can get

1753
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:15,280
really good outcomes from it and
there are loads of other things

1754
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:16,960
that you should be looking at
first.

1755
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:19,439
If you're worried about your
school's outcomes in maths,

1756
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:22,560
whether you do mixed ability or
setting should probably be about

1757
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:25,120
5th on the list of what you want
to actually impact the quality

1758
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:26,600
of teaching.
I I just can't go over the

1759
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:30,240
quality of teaching the actual
the actual what is going on in

1760
01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:32,279
your lesson, how adaptive you
are, whether you're meeting the

1761
01:08:32,279 --> 01:08:34,439
needs of the children is so much
more important than

1762
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:36,600
performative.
If you do mixed ability and it's

1763
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:39,960
red, red amber green and oh look
I've got a table over there for

1764
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:42,080
Deans and the children can just
go and get the Deans if they

1765
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:44,359
want to get them performative
nonsense.

1766
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:47,000
Children even need support or
they don't yeah, don't just

1767
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:49,600
leave it up to them to Oh yeah,
well I've got the isn't this you

1768
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:50,920
walk into my classroom.
It's fantastic.

1769
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:52,160
There's children have all
abilities here.

1770
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:53,600
Isn't this so inclusive and
amazing?

1771
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:55,520
And and I've got all of the
manipulatives out and the

1772
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:56,920
children.
There's there's three different

1773
01:08:56,920 --> 01:08:58,720
tasks and that that people
working with a teaching

1774
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:00,560
assistant and I'm working with
this group and they're on a red

1775
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:03,880
ambushy and they're a green
sheet performative nonsense.

1776
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:05,920
It can look good.
This is what I'm saying.

1777
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:08,680
It can be really good.
It's when it's performative.

1778
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:10,000
I'm talking about when it's
performative.

1779
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:12,560
So don't turn around and say to
me what I do isn't performative

1780
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:13,520
good.
Thank fantastic.

1781
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:16,160
You're probably doing mixed
ability really well, but it can

1782
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:19,439
so easily slip into just being
performative to look like we're

1783
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:21,840
being inclusive, to look like
we're helping everyone at once.

1784
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:23,880
And isn't this so much better
than setting?

1785
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:26,200
The answer is, it's not always
no.

1786
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:27,399
I agree.
I agree.

1787
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:31,200
And yeah, not there isn't one,
but I was trying to think that

1788
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:33,560
if I had the perfect school for
the perfect situation, I have

1789
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:35,680
the best, I've got the best ten
teachers in the whole country

1790
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:38,319
and they can share planning and
workloads already managed.

1791
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:41,080
I probably would go down the
route of let's let's let's go

1792
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:43,240
down mixed stability because I
think there are clear benefits

1793
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:44,399
to it.
We've talked, we've dismantled a

1794
01:09:44,399 --> 01:09:46,479
lot of them, but there are still
clear benefits to mixed

1795
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:47,920
stability.
I swear I wouldn't.

1796
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:50,240
Would you not?
No, all I would say is let's

1797
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:51,600
look at the children.
True.

1798
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:54,720
Yeah, just go to the children.
I think I'd go to that and my

1799
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:57,640
baseline.
I I think the best practise is

1800
01:09:57,640 --> 01:09:59,160
to not have a baseline.
Yeah, Yeah.

1801
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:00,880
It's like I need fantastic
teachers and you know, this

1802
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:02,080
cool, let's see what the kids
need.

1803
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:05,720
Oh, I think it seems, and this
is what I've done my whole

1804
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:08,520
career, 80% of the time.
It turned out that I thought the

1805
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:10,360
best thing for children would be
would be setting.

1806
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:12,480
I don't think that would change.
I don't think that would change

1807
01:10:12,480 --> 01:10:13,360
to the best teacher in the
world.

1808
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:14,480
I think I would still look at
the children.

1809
01:10:14,480 --> 01:10:17,040
I'd still go amazing, we've got
the best teacher in the world,

1810
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:19,640
Fantastic on the whole for this
cohort.

1811
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:23,280
Actually, let's set them and it
might be set slightly different

1812
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:25,440
to last year, set different next
year, mixed ability one year.

1813
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:30,440
In general though, I think we
can really do setting well in a

1814
01:10:30,440 --> 01:10:32,120
way that doesn't affect
confidence, that improves

1815
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:34,320
outcomes for everyone.
Does it increase a gap?

1816
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:36,600
Maybe, but that gap is making
everyone better.

1817
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:38,440
Definitely.
Let me change what I said then

1818
01:10:38,440 --> 01:10:39,720
because you're absolutely right.
It is.

1819
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:41,120
It is just about the context of
the cohort.

1820
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:45,680
What I really truly meant there
was if I had the best school in

1821
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:48,760
the world, the best teachers
ever, I would be significantly

1822
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:52,080
more likely to be considering
mixed stability then I would be

1823
01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:53,680
streaming.
And even though still it's down

1824
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:56,720
to the children, everything we
just said about the reality and

1825
01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:58,960
the workload and the
manageability to me does

1826
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:01,320
actually play a part in my mind
as to whether I even want to

1827
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:03,840
explore this concept or not.
Because I, there is, there are

1828
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:06,680
realities where I think where I
imagine I could be in a school

1829
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:09,240
where I think mixed ability
could work, You know, in this

1830
01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:13,680
situation, if I had the best,
most amazing practises in the

1831
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:17,360
world, the top ten teachers.
But in this situation right now,

1832
01:11:17,480 --> 01:11:20,480
I actually think, given all
circumstances and reality of

1833
01:11:20,480 --> 01:11:23,240
the, the ability of the teachers
and the system and the, the

1834
01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:25,640
situation I've got, I think
streaming is going to be the

1835
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:28,520
better outcome though, even
though ideologically maybe mixed

1836
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:31,040
ability could be better.
Reality, sometimes Trump's the

1837
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:32,120
ideologies, is what I'm trying
to.

1838
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:35,360
Say almost always.
Yeah, that's real because one's

1839
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:37,960
actually real.
Yeah.

1840
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:39,320
Be really interesting.
I think in the future, what

1841
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:42,960
would be great is to get some
people maybe to chat to Joe

1842
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:45,400
Dennis, long time, who maybe,
you know, really, really

1843
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:47,120
strongly for mixed.
Yeah.

1844
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:48,160
Yeah, and that's why we're
wrong.

1845
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:50,000
And have an argument.
Yeah, don't genuinely like.

1846
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:52,800
I mean, like, I mean, a debate,
That's the word, yeah.

1847
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:54,800
The debate the the polite
version of an argument.

1848
01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:57,480
Yeah, based on your, the real
you did the other day, I can

1849
01:11:57,480 --> 01:11:59,800
already tell that there's raffle
favours and there will be people

1850
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:02,160
who vehemently disagree, like
absolutely.

1851
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:03,160
And there'll be something we've
missed.

1852
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:05,200
There will be there.
They'll just be a perspective we

1853
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:07,280
only, you know, we explored like
a good 10 perspectives there,

1854
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:10,160
but there will be more that we
didn't maybe take into account

1855
01:12:10,440 --> 01:12:12,560
and someone will tell us why
we're absolutely, completely

1856
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:14,440
wrong and it'll be interesting.
My favourite thing was when

1857
01:12:14,480 --> 01:12:17,560
someone commented on Facebook
and said that I'd completely

1858
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:20,160
misinterpreted it and I should
go and sit on the low ability

1859
01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:22,080
class low ability table for
teachers.

1860
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:28,480
I mean, that was me.
Yeah, I was like, OK, it sounds

1861
01:12:28,480 --> 01:12:29,880
like you're the.
We found a high horse.

1862
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:32,080
Everyone.
We found a high horse.

1863
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:34,560
Here they are.
This is like I did a video

1864
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:36,760
saying both were OK.
Yeah, and you and you're an

1865
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:38,720
idiot user.
Oh, thank you.

1866
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:41,320
I'm sure you help your child's
confidence all the time in your

1867
01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:43,680
mixed ability classes.
Anyway, let's finish up there.

1868
01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:45,560
Please, guys, share this with
someone you think might find

1869
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:46,440
useful.
Send it to someone who

1870
01:12:46,440 --> 01:12:49,280
absolutely loves mixed ability
because they might think oh they

1871
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:51,400
might get annoyed.
Who knows, maybe don't, because

1872
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:52,920
they might not rate US five
stars, but you will.

1873
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:54,920
Please do it right now guys, see
you next time.

1874
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:55,840
Long old episode, bye.